Speaker 1: On July and Edmund, Oklahoma, business owner Paul Howell was
Speaker 1: returning to his parents home with his sister and two
Speaker 1: daughters after shopping for school supplies. Upon exiting the vehicle,
Speaker 1: he was shot twice and killed for his GMC suburban.
Speaker 1: Paul's sister would describe the shooter as an African American
Speaker 1: male wearing a red band down across his face and
Speaker 1: a stocking cap with up to an inch of hair
Speaker 1: sticking out from the bottom. Investigators would tap confidential informants
Speaker 1: in the stolen car trade that would deflect from themselves
Speaker 1: and point police in the direction of Chris Jordan and
Speaker 1: Julius Jones. Chris Jordan's would go on to give a
Speaker 1: confession that was riddled with inconsistencies, blaming Julius Jones for
Speaker 1: the murder, but on the night of July, Julius was
Speaker 1: at home with his family. The following night, July twenty nine,
Speaker 1: Chris Jordan slept at the Jones home, and that's when
Speaker 1: he planted the murder weapon in a second story crawl space,
Speaker 1: something he admitted both to the police and to two
Speaker 1: jailhouse informants. On July. Police would find the gun exactly
Speaker 1: where Chris Jordan had told him to look and emerge
Speaker 1: with it wrapped in a red Bandanna. Julius's defense at
Speaker 1: trial failed to present any evidence, including a photo taken
Speaker 1: by police after a traffic stop just ten days earlier,
Speaker 1: that would have ruled him out as a potential match
Speaker 1: to the only eyewitnesses description. Chris Jordan, on the other hand,
Speaker 1: received leniency for testifying against Julius, and he's been out
Speaker 1: of prison since two thousand fourteen. Julius, meanwhile, remains on
Speaker 1: death row for a crime for which Chris Jordan's has
Speaker 1: bragged about framing him. On this episode, we team up
Speaker 1: with one of Julius's fiercest advocates, Kim Kardashian West, as
Speaker 1: we speak with his attorney Dale Bache, and his mother
Speaker 1: and sister, Madeline and Antoinette Jones. This Its Wrongful Conviction
Speaker 1: with Jason Flow. Today, we're here to talk about Julius Jones,
Speaker 1: who has been on death row in Oklahoma for over
Speaker 1: twenty years for a crime he didn't commit. And I'd
Speaker 1: like to welcome a very special guest. You'll recognize her name,
Speaker 1: and you'll recognize her from having been on this podcast before.
Speaker 1: Kim Kardashian West. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason
Speaker 1: flam Hi. Thank you for having me again. I can't
Speaker 1: overstate the importance of you being here today with us, Kim,
Speaker 1: because if we don't take every possible action that we can,
Speaker 1: and I mean the audience too, Julius will be executed
Speaker 1: in Oklahoma as early as this fall for a crime
Speaker 1: we know he didn't commit. Kim, can you tell us
Speaker 1: when you first heard about this case? Yeah, I first
Speaker 1: started to receive letters. They were from a woman named
Speaker 1: Terry McCarthy, probably thirty letters from her, and she was
Speaker 1: kind of reiterating the same information about Julius and mentioned
Speaker 1: the documentary with Viola Davis. So I thought, I have
Speaker 1: to look into this. And I say this all the
Speaker 1: time because we have such an amazing group of people
Speaker 1: between you and Scott bud Nick, my attorneys and everyone.
Speaker 1: When all of the big players really feel the same
Speaker 1: way about a case, I know that we have to
Speaker 1: be loud. And I feel in my soul that we
Speaker 1: are early enough because an execution date for Julius hasn't
Speaker 1: been set yet that I just I feel like now
Speaker 1: is the time where we all just have to come
Speaker 1: together and really make a difference in his life. What
Speaker 1: about this particular case, about his case makes you so
Speaker 1: passionate And what sticks out to you the most about Julius' case?
Speaker 1: There's a few things. Being a young, honorable student athlete,
Speaker 1: you have your whole life ahead of you. Everyone around
Speaker 1: always says what an amazing person he is, that grew
Speaker 1: up with him, his coaches, and then to see getting
Speaker 1: caught up with the wrong group of people and getting
Speaker 1: set up the way he was just really rubbed me
Speaker 1: the wrong way. That someone's life, a young kid's life
Speaker 1: was just taken away. It always goes back to me
Speaker 1: thinking about what if that was my son? What would
Speaker 1: I do if my son got set up like this?
Speaker 1: So we gotta fight for this guy. We got to
Speaker 1: help him get his life back. The next voice you
Speaker 1: here is going to be the voice of Dale Bache,
Speaker 1: an assistant federal public defender who is definitely doing his
Speaker 1: part to help to unravel this nightmare. When did you
Speaker 1: get involved with it? In two thousand and sixteen, our
Speaker 1: office was appointed to represent Julius in clemency proceedings. Now,
Speaker 1: can you walk us through the case? Sure? On July,
Speaker 1: according to Chris Jordan's, who is the co defendant in
Speaker 1: this case. He and Julius were driving around looking for
Speaker 1: a suburban to jack. They spotted a car, followed it
Speaker 1: into a neighborhood, and according to Chris Jordan's, Julius jumped
Speaker 1: out of the car when the car pulled into the
Speaker 1: driveway and shot Paul Howell. When Chris Jordan was taken
Speaker 1: into custody, that's what he told the police, and they
Speaker 1: immediately focused on Julius tunnel vision set in. But what
Speaker 1: we now know is Chris made seven different statements to
Speaker 1: the police, and those statements were inconsistent, and at one
Speaker 1: point the police say, what you're telling us, it's not
Speaker 1: adding up. We don't have this backwards, do we. So
Speaker 1: the police knew that there were problems with what Chris
Speaker 1: was telling them, but the police continue to focus on Julius.
Speaker 1: Something really struck me as I was reading about this case,
Speaker 1: which was that when the gun was hidden in julius house,
Speaker 1: obviously very damning for anyone to have the murder weapon
Speaker 1: found in their home. Well, we know that when Chris
Speaker 1: was interviewed by the police, he was asked, so you
Speaker 1: hid the murder weapon and he responded, yeah. Chris also
Speaker 1: told one of the men that he spoke to while
Speaker 1: in custody in the county jail that he wrapped the
Speaker 1: gun used to commit the murder and hid it in
Speaker 1: Julius's parents house. We understand that Chris was sitting in
Speaker 1: a police car outside of Julius's house after the police
Speaker 1: stormed the home and then went looking for the gun
Speaker 1: and immediately went to where we think Chris told them
Speaker 1: the gun would be located. We also know that there
Speaker 1: were other people involved, namely Kermit Lotty and Ladell King,
Speaker 1: that had a lot to gain by pointing in julius
Speaker 1: direction and away from themselves. Can you tell us about
Speaker 1: Kermit and Lidell. Kermit Lotti was a man who ran
Speaker 1: a chop shop on the south side of Oklahoma City,
Speaker 1: and it was a well known establishment in the trade
Speaker 1: of stealing cars. Liddel King was a close confidante of
Speaker 1: Kermits and was known for his involvement in that trade.
Speaker 1: Adel King was also a confidential informant, and in exchange
Speaker 1: for providing information to the police, he would be allowed
Speaker 1: to carry on with some of his illegal activities. At
Speaker 1: the time of Julius's trial. Liddell King was facing bogus
Speaker 1: check charges and as an habitual offender, he was looking
Speaker 1: to twenty years, and in exchange for his testimony, he
Speaker 1: got ten years probation. Liddell was one of the guys
Speaker 1: that pointed the finger at Julius. So this paints a
Speaker 1: pretty strong picture of a sort of a unit. Right.
Speaker 1: You had Chris Jordan's who was a troubled kid. You
Speaker 1: had these two other known criminals, particularly ensconced in the
Speaker 1: stolen car business, and then you have a car that
Speaker 1: gets stolen in a violent brobbery tragic death. But we
Speaker 1: know a number of things that would make anyone go wait.
Speaker 1: I mean, for instance, we know that number of shell
Speaker 1: casing stounded at the scene was something that was known
Speaker 1: and volunteered by Chris and his interrogation before the police
Speaker 1: even asked or suggested it. We know that the witnesses
Speaker 1: were incentivized. We know that the description matches someone very
Speaker 1: much like Chris Jordan's who doesn't look like Julius. Megan Toby, Mr.
Speaker 1: Howell's sister was in the car with him when he
Speaker 1: pulled into the driveway, and she testified that she saw
Speaker 1: the person who shot her brother, and she described him
Speaker 1: as African American, wearing a red bandana across his face,
Speaker 1: wearing a black stocking cap, and half an inch of
Speaker 1: hair hanging out from under the cap. What's critical about
Speaker 1: that is Julius wore his hair close crop, very short.
Speaker 1: Chris Jordan's, on the other hand, wore his hair in braids.
Speaker 1: And how do we know that Julius's hair was was short.
Speaker 1: Ten days prior to Mr Howell's murder, Julius got picked
Speaker 1: up on a traffic stop and had a mug shot taken,
Speaker 1: So there's an official government photo of Julius with short hair,
Speaker 1: and that photograph was never shown to the jury at trial.
Speaker 1: We also know that Julius was at home with his
Speaker 1: family at the time Mr Howell was shot and killed,
Speaker 1: and later that evening, Chris and Julius were supposed to
Speaker 1: drive down to Norman, Oklahoma, which is about twenty minutes
Speaker 1: south of Oklahoma City. Julius was at home getting a
Speaker 1: little agitated because Chris said he would be there early
Speaker 1: in the evening and Kristen did show up until close
Speaker 1: to midnight. We also have with us julius sister Antoinette,
Speaker 1: and his mother Madeleine now here. You have a son
Speaker 1: who is excelling in so many ways, co captain of
Speaker 1: three different sports, tames in high school, academic scholarship at
Speaker 1: Oklahoma University, great looking young man with his whole life
Speaker 1: laid out in front of him, and then everything it
Speaker 1: takes a terrible, terrible turn. Well, first of all, it's
Speaker 1: been a twenty plus year shock, and uh, I really
Speaker 1: can't often find the words to explain what it's been like.
Speaker 1: We just got blindsided. It sure seems like you went
Speaker 1: from the American dream to the American nightmare. And let's
Speaker 1: go to that faithful night July. Can you tell us
Speaker 1: what was happening that night and why and how you
Speaker 1: know that Julius could not possibly have been there. That
Speaker 1: was a kind of a busy day for us, and
Speaker 1: I was trying to do Antoinette's hair. I was fixing
Speaker 1: uh spaghetti, But Julius was there all day long. They
Speaker 1: played monopoly. There were a few of us play monopoly.
Speaker 1: Julius was there for a monopoly and from my oldest
Speaker 1: brother Antonio and another young man that was over there,
Speaker 1: they got mad at me because I gave Jesus all
Speaker 1: my money and property I had to do that because
Speaker 1: I had to get my hair done. So it's specific
Speaker 1: things like that, Like I know that it was around
Speaker 1: Jesus birthday. Jesus friend had a big chocolate chill cookie
Speaker 1: that she gave to him for his birthday. Tony kept
Speaker 1: going in and out of the refrigerator to take pieces
Speaker 1: of the cookie. And later on that day, my brother
Speaker 1: Antonio had to go to work. My mother went to
Speaker 1: go take him to work. Julius looks in refrigerator and
Speaker 1: he's like, oh my goodness. He was like, who ate
Speaker 1: my cooking? And I kid you not. He waited at
Speaker 1: the back door in the kitchen, pacing back and forth,
Speaker 1: waiting for mom to come home, so he could tell
Speaker 1: that somebody ate his cookie. So I kind of was like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, I was like, Tony, your cookie, and so
Speaker 1: I'll never forget that that. So it doesn't seem like
Speaker 1: someone who just murdered somebody would be particularly concerned over
Speaker 1: how much of a cookie was left in the refrigerator
Speaker 1: or not. Um. I mean, that's just one of many
Speaker 1: many things, you know. So July he's home with you.
Speaker 1: It sounds like sort of a typical family night. But
Speaker 1: then things changed dramatically in the next thirty six hours,
Speaker 1: right the twenty nine, Chris is at your home? Right, Um,
Speaker 1: I know that he spent the night that night, which
Speaker 1: is when we believe that he had the opportunity to
Speaker 1: plant the gun. Do you recall Chris being at your
Speaker 1: house that night? Thursday? It was trash day and uh,
Speaker 1: Jews usually take some trash outain sometimes we sit and
Speaker 1: talk on the walkway. But Chris was kind of like
Speaker 1: a shadow was there and when that were you there
Speaker 1: that night? Do you remember if Chris was at the house.
Speaker 1: I know Chris was there because I heard him come
Speaker 1: upstairs and going to the room that was Julius. The
Speaker 1: very next day, the police would surround the Jones house.
Speaker 1: Julia's family was purple walked out of their own home,
Speaker 1: and Chris Jordan would be in a police car out
Speaker 1: front to tell them exactly what the murder weapon was hidden.
Speaker 1: Julius was appointed a good attorney, Mr Barry Albert, who
Speaker 1: was known for his skill and unorthodox but effective courtroom style.
Speaker 1: But Mr Albert, I can't believe this would die. He
Speaker 1: died shortly before the trial, leaving his new public defenders
Speaker 1: woefully unprepared. So much so that they didn't put on
Speaker 1: any defense whatsoever. When it came time for Julius to
Speaker 1: present his case, the lawyers simply stood up and said
Speaker 1: the defense rests. The lawyers did not put on testimony
Speaker 1: from the family who would have presented an alibi. The
Speaker 1: lawyers did not investigate and present evidence from two people
Speaker 1: who were in jail who didn't know each other and
Speaker 1: independently came forward and said that Chris Jordan's told told
Speaker 1: them that he said Julius up. He told one of
Speaker 1: the men that he planted the weapon in Julius's house,
Speaker 1: and he told both of the men that he would
Speaker 1: be getting out of prison after serving a fifteen year
Speaker 1: sentence in exchange for his testimony against Julius. The inconsistent
Speaker 1: statements that Chris made to the police during his interrogation
Speaker 1: were never explored by the defense when they had an
Speaker 1: opportunity to cross examine Chris. It's an inexplicable lapse. In fact,
Speaker 1: it's totally understandable why the jury would have voted to convict.
Speaker 1: They didn't have any information to work with except what
Speaker 1: the state was saying. What was it like, uh, seeing
Speaker 1: your your baby going through this trial? Well, at the beginning,
Speaker 1: I was very confident because the attorney that we had, Mr.
Speaker 1: He was very thorough and he talked to us and
Speaker 1: he said, I just need to get Chris on the stand.
Speaker 1: Mr Abbot had a plan before he passed away. The
Speaker 1: opponent atonis they wanted more time, and then after he
Speaker 1: passed away, then they wanted to immediately started with trial
Speaker 1: and everything. And we were there every day. But one
Speaker 1: of the excuses after Mr Abbart had passed, they said
Speaker 1: the reason they didn't call us understanding after they had
Speaker 1: sentenced Julius because they didn't know we were there. It
Speaker 1: was just a mockery. I was devastated. I was devastated
Speaker 1: when I heard the word we rest. I think I
Speaker 1: was a little older than thirteen, and I didn't understand
Speaker 1: how you couldn't put people understand to help my brother's defense.
Speaker 1: There was no defense there. And that I mean that,
Speaker 1: just that that pisces me out. You know, Kim, I
Speaker 1: just try to picture you know you you really spoke
Speaker 1: clearly about this before. But putting someone we love or yourself,
Speaker 1: if you're in the audience, put yourself in the shoes
Speaker 1: of a guy who's at trial for his life literally
Speaker 1: and his lawyers are doing absolutely nothing to help him.
Speaker 1: How can that be? How could that stand? And by
Speaker 1: the way, is that why you're taking the bar. I'm
Speaker 1: taking it just because I want to know more. If
Speaker 1: I don't know a lot about the system and how
Speaker 1: the law actually works, then I feel like I can't
Speaker 1: help as many people. I know we can get a
Speaker 1: lot done, but I feel like I could on a
Speaker 1: different level. So that's why I am taking it. But
Speaker 1: it infuriates me to hear when cases when there's ineffective counsel.
Speaker 1: It just makes me so mad, especially if it's an
Speaker 1: appointed attorney, that you think that if you don't have
Speaker 1: the money to afford an attorney and so you're getting
Speaker 1: a point in one, that they're going to be ineffective
Speaker 1: and not help but actually hurt your case so much.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how I can live with
Speaker 1: myself if I was an attorney like that. You know,
Speaker 1: for me, any injustice troubles me. But this one sticks
Speaker 1: in my mind because there he is on death row
Speaker 1: and basically the closest thing we have to hell on earth.
Speaker 1: And you know, I wanted to ask you about that.
Speaker 1: How do you feel about the death penalty in general.
Speaker 1: You know what, I'm just not for the death penalty
Speaker 1: no matter what. You know. Obviously there are people that
Speaker 1: have done really horrific things and definitely deserve to be
Speaker 1: behind bars. But I don't believe in taking a life.
Speaker 1: But I think, especially with Julius's case, he just didn't
Speaker 1: get a fair trial, bottom line. So I think that
Speaker 1: especially if there is even a chance that someone is
Speaker 1: innocent and their life would be taken, We've just seen
Speaker 1: it happen too many times for this to still be
Speaker 1: happening on the I can't support it. For people who
Speaker 1: are listening, now, what could you say to them when
Speaker 1: they end up serving on a jury which, you know,
Speaker 1: let's face it, all of us at some point get
Speaker 1: one of those jury duty notices and it's you look
Speaker 1: at it and you go and no, now, I gotta
Speaker 1: disrupt my life. It's literally my dream to do that.
Speaker 1: I hope that when I get like jury duty, that
Speaker 1: it's some case that I can make a difference in.
Speaker 1: No one wants to get the wrong person because it
Speaker 1: also prevents us from getting the right person. So and
Speaker 1: in this case, I mean, it's a tragedy. What happened
Speaker 1: to this family that they lost this guy who by
Speaker 1: all accounts was a good guy, and we want justice
Speaker 1: for him too. But there is no justice when you
Speaker 1: have the wrong person in prison. I think you have
Speaker 1: to be extremely sensitive with the families that are involved here.
Speaker 1: My compassion for helping someone and I'm not just speaking
Speaker 1: about Julius, it can be anyone never takes away my
Speaker 1: empathy for the family of the victim, and ultimately we
Speaker 1: all have the same goal. Is like what you just
Speaker 1: said is making sure that the right person is put
Speaker 1: behind bars and that the innocent person is able to
Speaker 1: be freed from this nightmare that they're in. I mean,
Speaker 1: as we've heard at Julius's trial, the defense didn't even
Speaker 1: give the jury much information to work with. But believe
Speaker 1: it or not, it gets even worse. During the trial
Speaker 1: in the jury room, one of the jurors said out loud,
Speaker 1: why are we wasting our time here? We ought to
Speaker 1: just take that end out back and bury um outside
Speaker 1: the jail, and one of the jurors approached a bailiff
Speaker 1: and told him what she heard and asked to talk
Speaker 1: to the judge on the record. The judge sort of
Speaker 1: dismissed it as well, he could have been talking about
Speaker 1: osam bin Laden. We don't know who the juror was
Speaker 1: talking about. Take the N word out of the equation.
Speaker 1: You still have a juror who made up his mind
Speaker 1: and was going to convict Julius and sentence him to death.
Speaker 1: Throw the N word in there, and the racism is
Speaker 1: just oozing from this case. We also know that between
Speaker 1: and two thousand and twelve, there was a study conducted
Speaker 1: in Oklahoma on race and the death penalty. The authors
Speaker 1: concluded that an African American male who is convicted of
Speaker 1: killing a white male is three times more likely to
Speaker 1: get the death penalty in Oklahoma. So at trial, yet
Speaker 1: racism incentivized lying witnesses and no defense whatsoever. So Dale,
Speaker 1: what you took on this case, You guys had your
Speaker 1: work cut out for you, to say the least. But
Speaker 1: there was a new law in place in Oklahoma that
Speaker 1: allowed you to do DNA testing and post conviction. So
Speaker 1: he tested the red bandanna right it was sitting in
Speaker 1: in evidence for almost twenty years. Dr Shapiro, he used
Speaker 1: to be with the Department of Forensic Biology at the
Speaker 1: Medical Examiner's Office in New York City, reviewed the DNA
Speaker 1: report that was produced by Bodhi Sellmark and came to
Speaker 1: some conclusions. So one of the things that Megan Toby,
Speaker 1: the victim's sister, testified to was that the shooter yelled
Speaker 1: something at her is she was running away, And we
Speaker 1: identified a stain on the bandanna, and we wanted to
Speaker 1: check if that stain was saliva, and it came back
Speaker 1: negative is to saliva. So we don't even know if
Speaker 1: that bandanna that was found in Julius's attic was the
Speaker 1: same bandanna that the assailant war because there's not the
Speaker 1: saliva staying on it that should be there, because the
Speaker 1: assailant yelled, don't forget this was July and Oklahoma, right,
Speaker 1: So you do have to suspend a lot of this
Speaker 1: belief to come up with the conclusion that someone Julius
Speaker 1: or anyone is going to be in an extremely high
Speaker 1: pressure situation on a very hot day and not sweat
Speaker 1: or breathe into the bandanna that they're supposedly wearing on
Speaker 1: their face. We don't know. We'll never know whether the
Speaker 1: gun was wrapped in the bandanna or whether the gun
Speaker 1: was taken and placed in the bandanna by the authorities
Speaker 1: when they were taking it out, one would hope they
Speaker 1: would put it in an evidence bag instead. But the
Speaker 1: state made a big deal about the fact that there
Speaker 1: were several different people's DNA on this bandanna, and that
Speaker 1: one of the people seems to be somewhat consistent with Julius.
Speaker 1: Can you elaborate on what that really means, because some
Speaker 1: people would look at that and go, oh, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: and you know, if I guess I got the right
Speaker 1: guy after all? Right, case closed? Um, But the testing
Speaker 1: indicates that the d n A was degraded and was
Speaker 1: defined as trace DNA, which suggests that the d NA
Speaker 1: could have been transferred to the item. So the bandana
Speaker 1: is found in Julius's house, it's handled by the police,
Speaker 1: it's in his bedroom. It's very possible that any DNA
Speaker 1: on there that could be consistent with Julius could come
Speaker 1: about as a result of the transfer of the d
Speaker 1: n A. So here's what we're faced with. It seems
Speaker 1: to me and correct me if I'm wrong on any
Speaker 1: of these fronts. Julius didn't match the eyewitness description. His
Speaker 1: hair was short and could never have stuck out from
Speaker 1: a stocking cap. But Chris Jordan's absolutely could have. Chris
Speaker 1: Jordan's gave a confession that was riddled with inconsistencies and
Speaker 1: false as he changed his story numerous times. Chris also
Speaker 1: admitted to planting the gun exactly where the police founded
Speaker 1: in Julius's house on more than one occasion. There's no
Speaker 1: salivary DNA on the bandanna and evidence, and it doesn't
Speaker 1: seem to be the one that was worn across the
Speaker 1: shooters or anyone's face anyway. And I'm leaving out other
Speaker 1: insculpatory stuff. Forget that incompetent defense, forget the racial bias,
Speaker 1: forget the jury, forget everything. Those facts alone would seem
Speaker 1: to be enough to unravel this. And then you add
Speaker 1: to it that the only thing connecting to it are
Speaker 1: the words of too highly incentivized witnesses, both of whom
Speaker 1: happened to be career criminals who were maybe an offer
Speaker 1: they could almost count refused. I mean they were given it,
Speaker 1: an offer that they would be able to avoid lengthy
Speaker 1: prison sentences of their own in exchange for their testimony
Speaker 1: against Julius. Does that pretty much sum it up? That's it?
Speaker 1: And one would think that, you know, why is Julius
Speaker 1: even in prison, let alone on death row, but that's
Speaker 1: not how it turned out. This leads to my next question, Kim,
Speaker 1: his only contact to the outside world is through letters.
Speaker 1: Have you gotten letters directly from him or have you
Speaker 1: corresponded with him in any way? I have, yes, you know,
Speaker 1: just hearing what he has to say, and I mean,
Speaker 1: what I can't understand, but I'm so grateful for is
Speaker 1: someone in Julius's situation who could be so angry at
Speaker 1: the world, and I don't I don't know how I
Speaker 1: would act if I was in his situation. But to
Speaker 1: see the grace that he has and to see how
Speaker 1: he's fighting through this and won't give up, it inspires me.
Speaker 1: So I want to fight like I We need him
Speaker 1: to get out. I mean, just to even know that
Speaker 1: because he was an athlete, to see a lot of
Speaker 1: athletes support him and write letters on his behalf now
Speaker 1: to send to the governor has been so amazing to see,
Speaker 1: you know, when he was playing ball, Blake Griffin's dad
Speaker 1: was his coach and its completely in support of Julius
Speaker 1: and Blake Griffin wrote an amazing, heartfelt letter for the
Speaker 1: governor to see in support of Julius's release. Russell Westbrook
Speaker 1: There's been some amazing people that really want to see
Speaker 1: him released as well, people that grew up there, people
Speaker 1: that played their Carmelo Anthony who played in Oklahoma for
Speaker 1: a little while. His wife is my best friend, you know.
Speaker 1: I sent him all the facts and he wrote a
Speaker 1: letter as well. It's amazing to see the support that
Speaker 1: has come together. And I hope that everyone really pays
Speaker 1: attention before it's too late, because we will not go
Speaker 1: out easy on this one. So Kim, if you could
Speaker 1: talk to the governor and you may have that opportunity,
Speaker 1: I hope um. And we know that the governor of
Speaker 1: Oklahoma is a guy who cares about criminal justice reform.
Speaker 1: He's done some positive things for sure. So if you
Speaker 1: could talk to him, what would you say? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: would just first of all, love to walk him through
Speaker 1: the facts of Julius case and explain to him what
Speaker 1: kind of person Julius is and was before his life
Speaker 1: was turned upside down. And I've heard he's a really
Speaker 1: compassionate person and really does care about reform. And I
Speaker 1: just hope to have that opportunity, And we're going to
Speaker 1: be presenting him all of these letters of support soon,
Speaker 1: and I believe that he will pay attention. I have
Speaker 1: faith in that. It would be hard to imagine that
Speaker 1: he and the members of the Parole Board wouldn't be
Speaker 1: moved to take action here. Between the outcry and the public,
Speaker 1: the support of prominent people, faith leaders and business leaders,
Speaker 1: so many different people, and the facts of the case
Speaker 1: cry out for justice. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: everyone always asked me like, well, what can we do?
Speaker 1: And I think the most important thing to do is
Speaker 1: call the Governor's office and elected officials that can really
Speaker 1: make a difference, and just be really loud, and you
Speaker 1: should go to Justice for Julius Jones dot com first
Speaker 1: of all, look into his case. Everything is on this website,
Speaker 1: from the documentary The Last Offense with Viola Davis to
Speaker 1: where you can sign the petition in favor of Julius,
Speaker 1: and you can also subscribe to stay up to date
Speaker 1: on what's going on, and it even gives you a
Speaker 1: link to email the Parole Board. I do believe that
Speaker 1: the Parole Board is like in favor of reform. I
Speaker 1: believe everyone is very compassionate from what I've heard, So
Speaker 1: I just urge everyone please sign the petition for Julius Jones.
Speaker 1: If you're moved by his story, I've done it. I
Speaker 1: believe in him so much. I believe in his innocence.
Speaker 1: Justice for Julius Jones dot Com. We have a regular
Speaker 1: feature on the show which is my favorite part of
Speaker 1: the show, which is where I get to just kick back,
Speaker 1: turn off my microphone, leave my headphones on and listen.
Speaker 1: And so what we call this segment closing Arguments, and
Speaker 1: we're going to hear from Dale ant when at and
Speaker 1: of course Madeleine, but let's kick things off with you,
Speaker 1: kim Oh. Thank you for having me on here, and
Speaker 1: thank you for everything that you do and for showing
Speaker 1: me the way. Seriously, I look up to you so much,
Speaker 1: and I'm so grateful to you for sharing so many
Speaker 1: cases with me and that we're able to hopefully open
Speaker 1: up people's minds and hearts that might have been a
Speaker 1: little bit closed off when it comes to reform or
Speaker 1: might not understood how they could help, and then we're
Speaker 1: giving them a platform where they can help out and
Speaker 1: be a part of the conversation and help fight for
Speaker 1: people that really really deserve it. So thank you, Dale,
Speaker 1: You've done a fantastic job and I appreciate you making
Speaker 1: the time. I know it's going to make a difference. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you, Jason. We have a commutation application pending before
Speaker 1: the Oklahoma Pardoning Parole Board. Julius is thankful for all
Speaker 1: the support, the prayers, the letter that he has received
Speaker 1: that is giving him strength. This case got the attention
Speaker 1: it deserved when Viola Davis and Julius Tennan produced the
Speaker 1: last defense that put light on this injustice and wrongful conviction.
Speaker 1: What's troubling to me, and we should all be concerned
Speaker 1: about this, is that without the last defense, no one
Speaker 1: would be interested in this case. Julius would have been
Speaker 1: just another African American man in prison saying he was innocent,
Speaker 1: one of the four percent, and no one would care.
Speaker 1: There are thousands of Julius behind bars today and people
Speaker 1: should care. And we know you care, Jason, and we
Speaker 1: appreciate that this struggle isn't over. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: Why don't we save mom for last, because you know
Speaker 1: she's mom, So antoine over to you. So first I
Speaker 1: would say, did my brother, Julius there is Jones. He
Speaker 1: did not kill Paul. How my brother is a human being.
Speaker 1: He is not a number when we consider people human
Speaker 1: beings and not just numbers, and we really take into
Speaker 1: account all the facts. I'm just asking them to correct
Speaker 1: this wrong. I'm asking you to look at all of
Speaker 1: the key points in this case. I'm asking you to
Speaker 1: understand that my brother never got a fair defense. He
Speaker 1: never got a proper defense, he never got a juror
Speaker 1: of his peers, he never got a chance to voice
Speaker 1: what happened to him from his side. And I'm just
Speaker 1: asking you, as a human being to understand and take
Speaker 1: my brother in consideration as a human being and not
Speaker 1: a number. He is not a person that would take
Speaker 1: a life. He is a person that will protect the life.
Speaker 1: He is a person that cares about everybody's well being.
Speaker 1: To this day, he cares. He cares more about how
Speaker 1: everybody else is doing then how he's doing. Side. That's
Speaker 1: who my brother is. He's a person that cares. He's
Speaker 1: a loyal person. He is a person that loves life.
Speaker 1: I never gave up, and I'm still not gonna give up.
Speaker 1: We shall not give up. We shall not rest. Even
Speaker 1: though the defense rest for him, we shall not rest.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, and now for the final words, Madeline.
Speaker 1: First of all, Julius is a good person. He's very kind.
Speaker 1: He's loving compassion, and a lot of times he will
Speaker 1: hurt himself to keep from hurting someone else. And that's
Speaker 1: the reason he's in predicament he's in now, and I
Speaker 1: just want to say to the parlorod board that one
Speaker 1: size does not fit all and that I would like
Speaker 1: for him to take careful consideration concerning Julius and to
Speaker 1: look at what he will be able to contribute to
Speaker 1: society if they spare his life. We just need to
Speaker 1: try to get things right because when justice is covered up,
Speaker 1: it stays covered for so long, but it'll either burn
Speaker 1: through or it will grow. And right now I feel
Speaker 1: like that justice is growing because uh, it wants to
Speaker 1: be heard and it wants to be fulfilled what it's
Speaker 1: really meant to be just for all, not just for
Speaker 1: some of us. And you know, freedom is worth more
Speaker 1: than money. My biggest joy is to help my son
Speaker 1: home and to be about the things that he's dreamed
Speaker 1: and long to want to do. And I thank God
Speaker 1: for this opportunity today to be able to express so
Speaker 1: many things that I've held in Today. I really thank
Speaker 1: God for you, Jason. I thank God for people like you.
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud
Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot
Speaker 1: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd
Speaker 1: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis.
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one