1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: On July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine, an Edmund, Oklahoma 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 1: business owner, Paul Howell, was returning to his parents home 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: with his sister and two daughters after shopping for school supplies. 4 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: Upon exiting the vehicle, he was shot twice and killed 5 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: for his GMC suburban. Paul's sister would describe the shooter 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:21,920 Speaker 1: as an African American male wearing a red bandana across 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: his face and a stocking cap with up to an 8 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: inch of hair sticking out from the bottom. Investigators would 9 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: tap confidential informants in the stolen car trade that would 10 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: deflect from themselves and point police in the direction of 11 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: Chris Jordan and Julius Jones. Chris Jordan would go on 12 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 1: to give a confession that was riddled with inconsistencies, blaming 13 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 1: Julius Jones for the murder, but on the night of 14 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: July twenty eighth, Julius was at home with his family. 15 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: The following night, July twenty ninth, Chris Jordan slept at 16 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: the Joneses home, and that's when he planted the murder 17 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: weapon in a second story crawl space, something he admitted 18 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 1: both to the police and to two jailhouse informants. On 19 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: July thirtieth, police would find the gun exactly where Chris 20 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: Jordan had told him to look, and emerge with it 21 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: wrapped in a red Bandanna. Julius's defense at trial failed 22 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: to present any evidence, including a photo taken by police 23 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: after a traffic stop just ten days earlier, that would 24 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: have ruled him out as a potential match to the 25 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: only eyewitnesses description. Chris Jordan, on the other hand, received 26 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: leniency for testifying against Julius, and he's been out of 27 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 1: prison since twenty fourteen. Julius, meanwhile, remains on death row 28 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: for crime for which Chris Jordan has bragged about framing him. 29 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: On this episode, we team up with one of Julius's 30 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: fiercest advocates, Kim Kardashian West, as we speak with his 31 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: attorney Dale Baish and his mother and sister, Madeline and 32 00:01:53,160 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: Antoinette Jones. This Its Wrongful Conviction with Jason Plumm Today, 33 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: we're here to talk about Julius Jones, who's been on 34 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: death row in Oklahoma for over twenty years for crime 35 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,519 Speaker 1: he didn't commit. And I'd like to welcome a very 36 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: special guest. You'll recognize her name, and you'll recognize her 37 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: from having been on this podcast before. Kim Kardashian West, 38 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flohm. 39 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 2: Hi, thank you for having me again. 40 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,959 Speaker 1: I can't overstate the importance of you being here today 41 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: with us, Kim, because if we don't take every possible 42 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: action that we can, and I mean the audience too, 43 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: Julius will be executed in Oklahoma as early as this 44 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: fall for a crime we know he didn't commit. Kim, 45 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: can you tell us when you first heard about this case. 46 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, I first started to receive letters. They were from 47 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 2: a woman named Terry McCarthy, probably thirty letters from her, 48 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 2: and she was kind of reiterating the same information about 49 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 2: Julius and mentioned the documentary with Viola Davis. So I thought, 50 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 2: I have to look into this. And I say this 51 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 2: all the time because we have such an amazing group 52 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 2: of people, between you and Scott Budnick, my attorneys and everyone. 53 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 2: When all of the big players really feel the same 54 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 2: way about a case, I know that we have to 55 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 2: be loud and I feel in my soul that we 56 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 2: are early enough because an execution date for Julius hasn't 57 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 2: been set yet. That I feel like now is the 58 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 2: time where we all just have to come together and 59 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 2: really make a difference in his life. 60 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: What about this particular case, about his case makes you 61 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: so passionate and what sticks out to you the most 62 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: about Julius's case, There's. 63 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 2: A few things. Being a young honor roll student athlete, 64 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 2: you have your whole life ahead of you. Everyone around 65 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 2: always says what an amazing person he is, that grew 66 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 2: up with him, his coaches, and then to see getting 67 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 2: caught up with the wrong group of people and getting 68 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 2: set up the way he was just really rubbed me 69 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 2: the wrong way. That someone's life, a young kid's life 70 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 2: was just taken away. It always goes back to me 71 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 2: thinking about what if that was my son? What would 72 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 2: I do if my son got set up like this? 73 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 2: So we got to fight for this guy. We got 74 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 2: to help him get his life back. 75 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 1: The next voice you hear is going to be the 76 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: voice of Dale Bash, an assistant federal public defender who 77 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: is definitely doing his part to help to unravel this nightmare. 78 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: When did you get involved with it? 79 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 3: Twenty and sixteen, our office was appointed to represent Julius 80 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 3: in clemency proceedings. 81 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: Now can you walk us through the case. 82 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 3: Sure. On July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine, according to 83 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 3: Chris Jordan, who is a co defendant in this case, 84 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 3: he and Julius were driving around looking for a suburban 85 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 3: to jack. They spotted a car, followed it into a neighborhood, 86 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,359 Speaker 3: and according to Chris Jordan, Julius jumped out of the 87 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 3: car when the car pulled into the driveway and shot 88 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 3: Paul Howell. When Chris Jordan was taken into custody, that's 89 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 3: what he told the police, and they immediately focused on Julius. 90 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 3: Tunnel vision set in. But what we now know is 91 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 3: Chris made seven different statements to the police, and those 92 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 3: statements were inconsistent, And at one point the police say, 93 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 3: what you're telling us, it's not adding up. We don't 94 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 3: have this backwards, do we. So the police knew that 95 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 3: there were problems with what Chris was telling them, but 96 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 3: the police continue to focus on Julius. 97 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: Something really struck me as I was reading about this case, 98 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: which was that when the gun was hidden in Julius's house, 99 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: obviously very damning for anyone to have the murder weapon 100 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: found in their home. 101 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 3: Well, we know that when Chris was interviewed by the police. 102 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 3: He was asked, so you hid the murder weapon, and 103 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 3: he responded yeah. Chris also told one of the men 104 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 3: that he spoke to while in custody in the county 105 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 3: jail that he wrapped the gun used to commit the 106 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 3: murder and hid it in Julius's parents' house. We understand 107 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 3: that Chris was sitting in a police car outside of 108 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 3: Julius's house after the police stormed the home and then 109 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 3: went looking for the gun and immediately went to where 110 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 3: we think Chris told them the gun would be located. 111 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 3: We also know that there were other people involved, namely Kermit, 112 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 3: Lotti and laddel King, that had a lot to gain 113 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 3: by pointing in Julius's direction and away from themselves. 114 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: Can you tell us about Kermit and Laddell. 115 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 3: Kermit Lottie was a man who ran a chop shop 116 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 3: on the south side of Oklahoma City, and it was 117 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 3: a well known establishment in the trade of stealing cars. 118 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 3: Laddel King was a close confidant of Kermit's and was 119 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 3: known for his involvement in that trade. Laddel King was 120 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 3: also a confidential informant and in exchange for providing information 121 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 3: to the police, he would be allowed to carry on 122 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 3: with some of his illegal activities. At the time of 123 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 3: Julius's trial, Liddell King was facing bogus check charges and 124 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 3: as an habitual offender, he was looking to twenty years, 125 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 3: and in exchange for his testimony, he got ten years probation. 126 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 3: Liddell was one of the guys that pointed the finger 127 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 3: at Julius. 128 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: So this paints a pretty strong picture of a sort 129 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: of a unit. 130 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:36,319 Speaker 4: Right. 131 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: You had Chris Jordan, who was a troubled kid. You 132 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: have these two other known criminals, particularly ensconced in the 133 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: stolen car business, and then you have a car that 134 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: gets stolen in a violent robbery tragic death. But we 135 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:57,559 Speaker 1: know a number of things that would make anyone go wait. 136 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: I mean, for instance, we know that the number of 137 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: shellcasing stunted the scene was something that was known and 138 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: volunteered by Chris and his interrogation before the police even 139 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,199 Speaker 1: asked or suggested it. We know that the witnesses were incentivized. 140 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: We know that the description matches someone very much like 141 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: Chris Jordan, who doesn't look like Julius. 142 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 3: Megan Toby, Mister Howell's sister was in the car with 143 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,719 Speaker 3: him when he pulled into the driveway, and she testified 144 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 3: that she saw the person who shot her brother, and 145 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 3: she described him as African American, wearing a red bandana 146 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 3: across his face, wearing a black stocking cap, and half 147 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 3: an inch of hair hanging out from under the cap. 148 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 3: What's critical about that is Julius wore his hair close crop, 149 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 3: very short. Chris Jordan, on the other hand, wore his 150 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 3: hair in braids. And how do we know that Julius's 151 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 3: hair was short. Ten days prior to mister Howell's murder, 152 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 3: Julius got picked up on a traffic stop and had 153 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 3: a mug shot taken. So there's an official government photo 154 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 3: of Julius with short hair, and that photograph was never 155 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 3: shown to the jury at trial. We also know that 156 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 3: Julius was at home with his family at the time 157 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 3: mister Howell was shot and killed, and later that evening, 158 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 3: Chris and Julius were supposed to drive down to Norman, Oklahoma, 159 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 3: which is about twenty minutes south of Oklahoma City. Julius 160 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 3: was at home getting a little agitated because Chris said 161 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 3: he would be there early in the evening and Kristen 162 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 3: would show up until close to midnight. 163 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: We also have with us Julius's sister Antoinette and his 164 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: mother Madeline. Now Here, you have a son who is 165 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: excelling in so many ways, a co captain of three 166 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: different sports in high school, academic scholarship at Oklahoma University, 167 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: great looking young man with the whole life laid out 168 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: in front of him, and then everything takes a terrible, 169 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:14,559 Speaker 1: terrible turn. 170 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:19,079 Speaker 5: Well, first of all, it's been a twenty plus year 171 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 5: shock and I really can't often find the words to 172 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 5: explain what it's been like. 173 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 4: We just got blindsided. 174 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: It sure seems like you went from the American dream 175 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: to the American nightmare. And let's go to that faithful 176 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: night July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine. Can you tell 177 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: us what was happening that night and how you know 178 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: that Julius could not possibly have been there. 179 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 5: That was a kind of a busy day for us. 180 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 5: I was trying to do Antunette's hair, I was fixing spaghetti, 181 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 5: but Julius. 182 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 4: Was there all day long. They played monopoly. 183 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 6: There were a few of us playing monopoly. Julius was 184 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 6: there playing Monopoly, and my oldest brother Antonio and another. 185 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 4: Young man that was over there. 186 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 6: They got mad at me because I gave Jus all 187 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 6: my money and property. I had to do that because 188 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 6: I had to get my hair done. So it's specific 189 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 6: things like that, Like I know that it was around Jesus' birthday. 190 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 6: Jessus friend had a big chocolate chip cookie that she 191 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 6: gave to him for his birthday. Tony kept going in 192 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 6: and out of the refrigerator to take pieces of the cookie. 193 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 6: And later on that day, my brother Antonio had to 194 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 6: go to work. My mother went to go take him 195 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 6: to work. Julius looks in the refrigerator and he's like, 196 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 6: oh my goodness. He was like, who ate my cooking? 197 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 4: And I kid you not. 198 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 6: He waited at the back door in the kitchen, pacing 199 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 6: back and forth, waiting for mom to come home so 200 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 6: he could tell that somebody ate his cookie. So I 201 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 6: kind of was like, well, you know, I was like, 202 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 6: Tony hr cookie. And so I'll never forget that day. 203 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: So it doesn't seem like someone who just murdered somebody 204 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: would be particularly concerned over how much of a cookie 205 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: was left in the refrigerator or not. I mean, that's 206 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: just one of many, many things, you know. So July 207 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: twenty eighth, he's home with you. Sounds like sort of 208 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: a typical family night. But then things changed dramatically in 209 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: the next thirty six hours. Right the twenty ninth, Chris 210 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,839 Speaker 1: is at your home, Right, I know that he spent 211 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 1: the night that night, which is when we believe that 212 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: he had the opportunity to plant the gun. Do you 213 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: recall Chris being at your house that night? 214 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 5: Thursday was trash day and Jess usually takes my trash 215 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 5: out and sometimes we sit and talk on the walkway, 216 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 5: but Chris was kind of like a shadow? 217 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: Was there answhen that Were you there that night? Do 218 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: you remember if Chris was at the house. 219 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 6: I know Chris was there because I heard him come 220 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 6: upstairs and go into the room that was Julius's. 221 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,319 Speaker 1: The very next day, the police would surround the Jones' house. 222 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: Julia's family was purple out of their own home, and 223 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 1: Chris Jordan would be in a police car out front 224 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: to tell them exactly where the murder weapon was hidden. 225 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: Julius was appointed a good attorney, mister Barry Albert, who 226 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 1: was known for his skill and unorthodox but effective courtroom style. 227 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: But mister Albert. You can't believe this would die. He 228 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: died shortly before the trial, leaving his new public defenders 229 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: woefully unprepared, so much so that they didn't put on 230 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: any defense whatsoever. 231 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 3: When it came time for Julius to present his case, 232 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 3: the lawyers simply stood up and said the defense rests. 233 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 3: The lawyers did not put on testimony from the family 234 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 3: who would have presented an alibi. The lawyers did not 235 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 3: investigate and present evidence from two people who were in jail, 236 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 3: who didn't know each other and independently came forward and 237 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 3: said that Chris Jordan told told them that he said 238 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 3: Julius up. He told one of the men that he 239 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 3: planted the weapon in Julius's house, and he told both 240 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 3: of the men that he would be getting out of 241 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 3: prison after serving a fifteen year sentence in exchange for 242 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 3: his testimony against Julius. The inconsistent statements that Chris made 243 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 3: to the police during his interrogation were never explored by 244 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 3: the defense when they had an opportunity to cross examine Chris. 245 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: It's an inexplicable lapse. In fact, it's totally understandable why 246 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: the jury would have voted to convict. They didn't have 247 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: any information to work with except what the state was saying. 248 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: What was it like seeing your baby going through this trial. 249 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 5: Well, at the beginning, I was very confident because the 250 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 5: attorney that we had, mister Abbott, he was very thorough 251 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 5: and he talked to us and he said, I just 252 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 5: need to get Chris on the stand. Miss Abbot had 253 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 5: a plan before he passed away. The opponent attorneys they 254 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 5: wanted more time, and then after he passed away than 255 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 5: they wanted to immediately start up with trial and everything. 256 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 4: And we were there every day. But one of the 257 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 4: excuses after miss Tabbot had passed, they said the reason 258 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 4: they didn't call us on the standing after they had 259 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 4: sentenced Junius because they didn't know we were there. It 260 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 4: was just a mockery. 261 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 6: I was devastated. I was devastated when I heard the 262 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 6: word we rest. I think I was a little older 263 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 6: than thirteen. 264 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: Then. 265 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 6: I didn't understand how you couldn't put people on the 266 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 6: stand to help my brother's defense. There was no defense 267 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 6: there and that I mean that, just that pisces me off. 268 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: You know, Kim, I just I try to picture you know, 269 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: you really spoke quickly about this before, but putting someone 270 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: we love or yourself. If you're in the audience with 271 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,959 Speaker 1: yourself in the shoes of a guy who's at trial 272 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: for his life literally and his lawyers are doing absolutely 273 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: nothing to help him, how can that be? How could 274 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: that stand? And by the way, is that why you're 275 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: taking the bar. 276 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 2: I'm taking it just because I want to know more. 277 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 2: If I don't know a lot about the system and 278 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 2: how the law actually works, then I feel like I 279 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 2: can't help as many people. I know we can get 280 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 2: a lot done, but I feel like I put on 281 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 2: a different level. So that's why I am taking it. 282 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 2: But it infuriates me to hear when cases when there's 283 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 2: ineffective counsel. It just makes me so mad, especially if 284 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 2: it's an appointed attorney, that you think that if you 285 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 2: don't have the money to afford an attorney and so 286 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 2: you're getting appointed one, that they're going to be ineffective 287 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 2: and not help but actually hurt your case so much. 288 00:17:58,240 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know how I can live with 289 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,959 Speaker 2: myself if I was an attorney like that. 290 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: You know, for me, any injustice troubles me. But this 291 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: one sticks in my mind because there he is on 292 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: death row and basically the closest thing we have to 293 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 1: hell on earth. And you know, I wanted to ask 294 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,640 Speaker 1: you about that. How do you feel about the death 295 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 1: penalty in general? 296 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 2: You know what, I'm just not for the death penalty 297 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 2: no matter what. You know. Obviously there are people that 298 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 2: have done really horrific things and definitely deserve to be 299 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 2: behind bars. But I don't believe in taking a life. 300 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 2: But I think, especially with Julius's case, he just didn't 301 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 2: get a fair trial, bottom line. So I think that 302 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 2: especially if there is even a chance that someone is 303 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 2: innocent and their life would be taken, We've just seen 304 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 2: it happen too many times for this to still be 305 00:18:54,080 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 2: happening on the I can't support it. 306 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: For people who are listening, now, what could you say 307 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 1: to them when they end up serving on a jury which, 308 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: you know, let's face it, all of us at some 309 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 1: point get one of those jury duty notices and you 310 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: look at it and you go, no, now, I got 311 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: to disrupt my life. 312 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 2: It's literally my dream to do that. I hope that 313 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 2: when I get like jury duty, that it's some case 314 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 2: that I can make a difference in. 315 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: No one wants to get the wrong person because it 316 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: also prevents us from getting the right person. So and 317 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 1: in this case, I mean, it's a tragedy what happened 318 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: to this family where they lost this guy who by 319 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 1: all accounts was a good guy, and we want justice 320 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,479 Speaker 1: for him too, But there is no justice when you 321 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:44,959 Speaker 1: have the wrong person in prison. 322 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 2: I think you have to be extremely sensitive with the 323 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 2: families that are involved here. My compassion for helping someone 324 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 2: and I'm not just thinking about Julie as it can 325 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 2: be anyone, never takes away my empathy for the family 326 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 2: of the victim. And ultimately we all have the same 327 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 2: goal as like what you just said is making sure 328 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 2: that the right person is put behind bars and that 329 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 2: the innocent person is able to be freed from this 330 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 2: nightmare that they're in. 331 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: I mean, as we've heard at Julius's trial, the defense 332 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: didn't even give the jury much information to work with. 333 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 1: But believe it or not, it gets even worse. 334 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 3: During the trial in the jury room, one of the 335 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 3: jurors said out loud, why are we wasting our time here? 336 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 3: We ought to just take that in out back and 337 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 3: bury them outside the jail, And one of the jurors 338 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 3: approached a bailiff and told him what she heard and 339 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 3: asked to talk to the judge on the record. The 340 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 3: judge sort of dismissed it as well. He could have 341 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 3: been talking about Osama bin Laden. We don't know who 342 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 3: the juror was talking about. Take the N word out 343 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 3: of the equation. You still have a juror who made 344 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 3: up his mind and was going to convict Julius and 345 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 3: sentence him to death. Throw the N word in there, 346 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 3: and the racism is just oozing from this case. We 347 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 3: also know that between nineteen ninety five and twoenty twelve, 348 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 3: there was a study conducted in Oklahoma on race and 349 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 3: the death penalty. The authors concluded that an African American 350 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 3: male who is convicted of killing a white male is 351 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 3: three times more likely to get the death penalty in Oklahoma. 352 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:56,919 Speaker 1: So at trial, yet racism incentivized lying witnesses and no 353 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 1: defense whatsoever. So Dale, when you took on case, you 354 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: guys had your work cut out for you, to say 355 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: the least. But there was a new law in place 356 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: in Oklahoma that allowed you to do DNA testing and 357 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: post conviction, so you tested the red bandana right. 358 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 3: It was sitting in evidence for almost twenty years, Doctor Shapiro, 359 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,360 Speaker 3: used to be with the Department of Forensic Biology at 360 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 3: the Medical Examiner's Office in New York City, reviewed the 361 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 3: DNA report that was produced by body Selmark and came 362 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:39,360 Speaker 3: to some conclusions. So one of the things that Megan Toby, 363 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 3: the victim's sister, testified to was that the shooter yelled 364 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 3: something at her is she was running away, and we 365 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:54,719 Speaker 3: identified a stain on the bandana, and we wanted to 366 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 3: check if that stain was saliva, and it came back 367 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 3: negative is to saliva. So we don't even know if 368 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 3: that bandana that was found in Julius's attic was the 369 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 3: same bandana that the assailant wore, because there's not the 370 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 3: saliva stain on it that should be there. Because the 371 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 3: assailant yelled. 372 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: Don't forget, this was July and Oklahoma, right, So you 373 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: do have to suspend a lot of this belief to 374 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: come up with the conclusion that someone Julius or anyone 375 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: is going to be in an extremely high pressure situation 376 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: on a very hot day and not sweat or breathe 377 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: into the bandana that they're supposedly wearing on their face. 378 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: We don't know. We'll never know whether the gun was 379 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 1: wrapped in the bandana, or whether the gun was taken 380 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: and placed in the bandana by the authorities when they 381 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,479 Speaker 1: were taking it out. One would hope they would put 382 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: it in an evidence bag instead. But the state made 383 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: a big deal about the fact that there were several 384 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: different people's DNA on this bandana, and that one of 385 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: the people seems to be somewhat consistent with Julius. Can 386 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: you elaborate on what that really means, because some people 387 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 1: would look at that and go, oh, wait a minute. 388 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: Then you know, I guess they got the right guy 389 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: after all. 390 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 3: Right, case closed. But the testing indicates that the DNA 391 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 3: was degraded and was defined as trace DNA, which suggests 392 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 3: that the DNA could have been transferred to the item. 393 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 3: So the bandana is found in Julius's house, it's handled 394 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 3: by the police, it's in his bedroom. It's very possible 395 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 3: that any DNA on there that could be consistent with 396 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 3: Julius's could come about as a result of the transfer 397 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 3: of the DNA. 398 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 1: So here's what we're faced with. It seems to me, 399 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 1: and correct me if I'm wrong on any of these fronts. 400 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: Julius didn't match the eyewitness description. His hair was short 401 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 1: and could never have stuck out from a stocking cap, 402 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: but Chris Jordan's absolutely could have. Chris Jordan gave a 403 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 1: confession that was riddled with inconsistencies and false as he 404 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: changed his story numerous times. Chris also admitted to planting 405 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: the gun exactly where the police found it in Julius's 406 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: house on more than one occasion. There's no salary DNA 407 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: on the bandana in evidence, and it doesn't seem to 408 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 1: be the one that was worn across the shooters or 409 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: anyone's face anyway, And I'm leaving out other exculpatory stuff. 410 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 1: Forget the incompetent defense, forget the racial bias, forget the jury, 411 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 1: forget everything. Those facts alone would seem to be enough 412 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 1: to unravel this. And then you add to it that 413 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 1: the only thing connecting him to it are the words 414 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: of two highly incentivized witnesses, both of whom happened to 415 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: be career criminals, who were maybe an offer they could 416 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 1: almost get refused. I mean, they were given an offer 417 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: that they would be able to avoid lengthy prison sentences 418 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: of their own in exchange for their testimony against Julius. 419 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: Does that pretty much sum it up. 420 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 3: That's it, and one would think that, you know, why 421 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 3: is Julius even in prison, let alone on death row, 422 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,160 Speaker 3: But that's not how it turned out. 423 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 1: This leads to my next question, Kim, his only contact 424 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: to the outside world is through letters. Have you gotten 425 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: letters directly from him or have you corresponded with him 426 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: in any way? 427 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 2: I have, yes, you know, just hearing what he has 428 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:54,199 Speaker 2: to say. And I mean, what I can't understand, but 429 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 2: I'm so grateful for is someone in Julius's situation who 430 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,360 Speaker 2: could be so angry at the world. And I don't 431 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 2: know how I would act if I was in his situation, 432 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 2: But to see the grace that he has and to 433 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 2: see how he's fighting through this and won't give up, 434 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 2: it inspires me. So I want to fight, like we 435 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 2: need him to get out. I mean, just to even 436 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 2: know that because he was an athlete, to see a 437 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 2: lot of athletes support him and write letters on his 438 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 2: behalf now to send to the governor has been so 439 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 2: amazing to see. You know, when he was playing ball, 440 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 2: Blake Griffin's dad was his coach and is completely in 441 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 2: support of Julius and Blake Griffin wrote an amazing, heartfelt 442 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 2: letter for the governor to see in support of Julius's release. 443 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 2: Russell Westbrook. There's been some amazing people that really want 444 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 2: to see him released as well, people that grew up there, 445 00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 2: people that played there. Carmelo Anthony who played in Oklahoma 446 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 2: for a little while. His wife is my best friend, 447 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 2: you know. I sent him all the facts and he 448 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 2: wrote a letter as well. It's amazing to see the 449 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 2: support that has come together. And I hope that everyone 450 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 2: really pays attention before it's too late, because we will 451 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 2: not go out easy on this one. 452 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 1: So, Kim, if you could talk to the governor and 453 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: you may have that opportunity, I hope, And we know 454 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: that the governor of Oklahoma is a guy who cares 455 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 1: about criminal justice reform. He's done some positive things for sure. 456 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 1: So if you could talk to him, what would you say? 457 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would just first of all, love to walk 458 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 2: him through the facts of Julius's case and explain to 459 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 2: him what kind of person Julius is and was before 460 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 2: his life was turned upside down. And I've heard he's 461 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 2: a really compassionate person and really does care about reform, 462 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 2: and I just hope to have that opportunity, and we're 463 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 2: going to be presenting him all of these letters of 464 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 2: support soon, and I believe that he will pay attention. 465 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 2: I have faith in that. 466 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: It would be hard to imagine that he and the 467 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: members of the Parole Board wouldn't be moved to take 468 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: action here. Between the outcry and the public, the support 469 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: of prominent people, faith leaders, business leaders, so many different people, 470 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: and the facts of the case cry out for justice. Yeah. 471 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean everyone always asks me like, well, what 472 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 2: can we do? And I think the most important thing 473 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 2: to do is call the Governor's office and elected officials 474 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 2: that can really make a difference, and just be really loud, 475 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 2: and you should go to Justice for Julius Jones dot 476 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 2: com first of all, look into his case. Everything is 477 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 2: on this website, from the documentary The Last Offense with 478 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 2: Viola Davis to where you can sign the petition in 479 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 2: favor of Julius, and you can also subscribe to stay 480 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 2: up to date on what's going on, and it even 481 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 2: gives you a link to email the Parole Board. I 482 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 2: do believe that the Parole Board is like in favor 483 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 2: of a form. I believe everyone is very compassionate. From 484 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 2: what I've heard, So I just urge everyone please sign 485 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 2: the petition for Julius Jones if you're moved by his story. 486 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 2: I've done it. I believe in him so much. I 487 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 2: believe in his innocence. Justice for Julius Jones dot com. 488 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: We have a regular feature on the show which is 489 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: my favorite part of the show, which is where I 490 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: get to just kick back, turn off my microphone, leave 491 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: my headphones on and listen. And so what we call 492 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: this segment closing Arguments, and we're going to hear from 493 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: Dale ants when and of course Madeline, but let's kick 494 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: things off with you, Kim Oh. 495 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me on here, and thank you 496 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 2: for everything that you do and for showing me the way. Seriously, 497 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 2: I look up to you so much, and I'm so 498 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 2: grateful to you for sharing so many cases with me 499 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 2: and that we're able to hopefully open up people's minds 500 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 2: and hearts that might have been a little bit closed 501 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 2: off when it comes to reform or might not understood 502 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 2: how they could help, and then we're giving them a 503 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 2: platform where they can help out and be a part 504 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 2: of the conversation and help fight for people that really 505 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 2: really deserve it. 506 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 4: So thank you. 507 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: Dale, You've done a fantastic job and I appreciate you 508 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: making the time. I know it's going to make a difference. 509 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 3: Well, thank you, Jason. We have a commutation application pending 510 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 3: before the Oklahoma Pardon and Parole Board. Julius is thankful 511 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 3: for all the support, the prayers, the letters that he 512 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 3: has received that is giving him strength. This case got 513 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 3: the attention it deserved when Viola Davis and Julius Tennan 514 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 3: produced the last defense that put light on this injustice 515 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 3: and wrongful conviction. What's troubling to me, and we should 516 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 3: all be concerned about this, is that without the last defense, 517 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 3: no one would be interested in this case. Julius would 518 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 3: have been just another African American man in prison saying 519 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 3: he was innocent, one of the four percent, and no 520 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 3: one would care. There are thousands of julius'es behind bars 521 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 3: today and people should care. And we know you care, Jason, 522 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 3: and we appreciate that. The struggle isn't over. Thank you 523 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 3: very much. 524 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: Why don't we save mom for last, because you know 525 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: she's mom, So antoinete over to you. 526 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 6: So first I would say, my brother, Julius Arris Jones, 527 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 6: he did not kill Paul howe. My brother is a 528 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 6: human being. He is not a number. When we consider 529 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 6: people human beings and not just numbers, and we really 530 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 6: take into account all the facts. I'm just asking them 531 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 6: to correct this wrong. I'm asking you to look at 532 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 6: all of the key points in this case. I'm asking 533 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 6: you to understand that my brother never got a fair defense, 534 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 6: he never got a proper defense, he never got a 535 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 6: jur of his peers, he never got a chance to 536 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 6: voice what happened to him from his side. And I'm 537 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 6: just asking you, as a human being to understand and 538 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 6: take my brother in consideration as a human being and 539 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 6: not a number. He is not a person that will 540 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 6: take a life. He is a person that will protect 541 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 6: a life. He is a person that cares about everybody's 542 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,959 Speaker 6: well being. To this day, he cares. He cares more 543 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 6: about how everybody else is doing than how he's doing. 544 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:02,959 Speaker 6: That's who my brother is. He's a person that cares. 545 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 6: He's a loyal person. He is a person that loves life. 546 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 6: I never gave up, and I'm still not gonna give up. 547 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 6: We shall not give up. We shall not rest. Even 548 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 6: though the defense rests for him, we shall not rest. 549 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you, and now for the final words, Madeline. 550 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 4: First of all, Julius is a good person. 551 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 5: He's very kind, he's loving, compassion, and a lot of 552 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 5: times he will hurt himself to keep from hurting someone else. 553 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 5: And that's the reason he's in predicament he's in now, 554 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 5: and I just want to say to the Borole board 555 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 5: that one science does not fit all and that I 556 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 5: would like for them to take careful consideration concerning Julius 557 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 5: and to look at what he will be able to contribute. 558 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,800 Speaker 4: To society if they spare his life. 559 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 5: We just need to try to get things right because 560 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 5: when justice is covered up, it stays covered for so long, 561 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 5: but it will either burn through or it will grow. 562 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 5: And right now I feel like that justice is growing 563 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 5: because it wants to be heard and it wants to 564 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:27,399 Speaker 5: be fulfilled what it's really meant to be justice for all, 565 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 5: not just for some of us. 566 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 4: And you know, freedom is worth more than money. 567 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 5: My biggest joy is to help my son home and 568 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 5: to be about the things that he's dreamed and long 569 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 5: to want to do. And I thank God for this 570 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:52,320 Speaker 5: opportunity today to be able to express so many things 571 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 5: that I've held in Today. 572 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,919 Speaker 4: I really thank God for you, Jason. I thank God 573 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 4: for people like you. 574 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you 575 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,240 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud 576 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll 577 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,320 Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping 578 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot 579 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd 580 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,280 Speaker 1: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. 581 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR 582 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on 583 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,800 Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. 584 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,240 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is a production of Lava 585 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one