WEBVTT - Episode 7: Porn Meets OnlyFans 0:00:15.516 --> 0:00:25.196 Pushkin before we start a warning. Our investigation looks into 0:00:25.196 --> 0:00:29.236 power and the porn industry. This episode contains adult themes. 0:00:33.156 --> 0:00:36.516 In previous episodes, we've told you about men at the 0:00:36.596 --> 0:00:42.596 top of porn, their ambition, their power battles, their relentless 0:00:42.596 --> 0:00:47.676 efforts to remain unknown to the world. We looked at 0:00:47.716 --> 0:00:51.556 how they cornered the most lucrative parts of the adult business, 0:00:51.556 --> 0:00:56.236 either by owning tech platforms or production studios or both. 0:00:57.276 --> 0:01:02.076 Porn profits flowed to owners and middlemen, but not so 0:01:02.196 --> 0:01:06.396 much to performers. Now we're going to tell you about 0:01:06.556 --> 0:01:11.636 the company that reset the ballot, the company that, whether 0:01:11.676 --> 0:01:15.436 it intended to or not, managed to shift money and 0:01:15.636 --> 0:01:20.396 power back to performers in a huge way. You may 0:01:20.396 --> 0:01:24.116 have heard its name. He became so popular during the pandemic. 0:01:24.716 --> 0:01:28.676 Even my mother had heard its name. We're talking about 0:01:28.716 --> 0:01:32.756 Only Fans. Only Fans as a social media platform just 0:01:32.796 --> 0:01:35.356 like those you use already, but which allows you to 0:01:35.396 --> 0:01:38.676 set a monthly subscription price, ensuring that any media you 0:01:38.796 --> 0:01:42.156 upload is fully hidden until your fans pay your subscription. 0:01:44.156 --> 0:01:48.196 We are not the average demographic. We are on the 0:01:48.236 --> 0:01:54.556 more mature sides of your typical webcam broadcaster, This is Peppermint. 0:01:55.356 --> 0:01:58.596 It's the stage name she uses for the adult enterprise 0:01:58.636 --> 0:02:01.756 she runs with her husband, Dusty, also a stage name. 0:02:02.636 --> 0:02:06.556 Our shows can run anywhere between four to eight hours 0:02:06.556 --> 0:02:11.316 eight hours time. All of that is sexual engagement. We 0:02:11.436 --> 0:02:14.356 have amazing conversations with our viewers. We like to dive 0:02:14.436 --> 0:02:18.596 deep into the meaning of life and relationships and sexuality. 0:02:19.316 --> 0:02:22.876 We met at a pawn event in la where Dusty 0:02:22.916 --> 0:02:27.356 and Peppermint were promoting their business and meeting fans. They're 0:02:27.396 --> 0:02:31.276 mainly known for their live video work on campsites those 0:02:31.356 --> 0:02:37.276 a tower shows that can include sex, fire, spinning, acrobatic yoga, 0:02:37.356 --> 0:02:42.516 and cooking, trying to promote real sex between real people 0:02:42.716 --> 0:02:48.316 rather than a fantasy scenario created by a studio. Over time, 0:02:48.356 --> 0:02:52.516 they've branched out selling clips on video platforms and reaching 0:02:52.556 --> 0:02:56.276 their most loyal supporters through an only Fans account. So 0:02:56.356 --> 0:02:59.516 with the explosion of people turning to only Fans, turning 0:02:59.556 --> 0:03:03.116 to content creation, turning to online work, I think there 0:03:03.236 --> 0:03:07.556 is a lot more acceptance of it in the mainstream audience. 0:03:08.716 --> 0:03:12.316 Only Fans is a platform that launched in twenty sixteen. 0:03:12.596 --> 0:03:16.836 It's basically a special kind of social media site. It 0:03:16.956 --> 0:03:21.396 lets you message followers or upload videos or posts, just 0:03:21.676 --> 0:03:25.556 like Instagram or Facebook. The twist with only Fans is 0:03:25.556 --> 0:03:30.156 that your content lives behind a paywall. Visitors pay you 0:03:30.396 --> 0:03:33.156 to view it. They can even pay you to produce 0:03:33.236 --> 0:03:38.876 media just for them. This seemingly small difference the paywall 0:03:39.596 --> 0:03:45.956 changed how a whole generation of online stars earned their living. Influencers, musicians, 0:03:46.316 --> 0:03:51.756 fitness instructors, but especially porn stars. Only Fans made the 0:03:51.796 --> 0:03:57.596 industry's most famous performers seriously rich. Some have earned millions 0:03:57.636 --> 0:04:01.036 and allowed them to make videos at home on their 0:04:01.036 --> 0:04:05.596 own terms. Most Only Fans creators are and big stars, 0:04:05.636 --> 0:04:10.036 but more like Peppermint and Dusty, the PM has allowed 0:04:10.076 --> 0:04:14.156 them to generate a modest study income. It made it 0:04:14.196 --> 0:04:18.156 easier than ever to make money from porn until the 0:04:18.236 --> 0:04:23.316 moment Only Fans announced that porn wouldn't be welcome anymore. 0:04:23.756 --> 0:04:26.956 Can you tell us about the day that Only Fans 0:04:27.076 --> 0:04:31.596 banned porn? We had actually been on a trip up 0:04:31.636 --> 0:04:34.116 to the mountains, and we had gone just to a 0:04:34.156 --> 0:04:37.956 different locations so we could shoot some new content specifically 0:04:38.076 --> 0:04:41.196 for only Fans. I opened up the app on my 0:04:41.276 --> 0:04:44.676 phone and I see Twitter, and I see all these 0:04:44.756 --> 0:04:49.436 posts about only fans banning porn. So I remember driving 0:04:49.476 --> 0:04:54.876 down the mountains seeing our follower account just drop literally 0:04:54.916 --> 0:04:57.796 in half, which means we also lost half of our income. 0:04:58.396 --> 0:05:01.916 I think that these rules and these changes almost affect 0:05:01.916 --> 0:05:06.316 the smaller creators more so. The platform that totally transformed 0:05:06.316 --> 0:05:10.876 the pawn industry decided to ban pawn to become a 0:05:10.996 --> 0:05:15.596 safe for work service. Then just one week later, Only 0:05:15.596 --> 0:05:20.276 Fans changed its mind. Pawn was okay again. They canceled 0:05:20.516 --> 0:05:25.716 the cancelation. It was so farcical. Only Fans made headlines 0:05:25.836 --> 0:05:29.076 around the world. And what about them when they reversed 0:05:29.076 --> 0:05:32.636 the band? How did you feel them? You always kind 0:05:32.636 --> 0:05:35.476 of sit there and wonder when it's going to happen again, 0:05:35.996 --> 0:05:38.116 and you know what's going to be the next trigger. 0:05:38.196 --> 0:05:45.956 Why are they going to do it this time? What happened? 0:05:46.876 --> 0:05:49.316 We decided to seek out only fans and where it 0:05:49.396 --> 0:05:53.596 came from a close knit family from Essex, the New 0:05:53.716 --> 0:05:57.996 Jersey of England. They're the most miscast porn barons you 0:05:58.036 --> 0:06:04.396 can imagine, and yet they somehow confirmed power and porn 0:06:05.396 --> 0:06:10.516 is all about the payments. I'm Alex Barker, I'm Patrician 0:06:10.516 --> 0:06:15.116 Nelson from Pushkin Industries. And the Financial Times. This is 0:06:15.156 --> 0:06:53.156 hot Money, Act one financial domination. We set out to 0:06:53.276 --> 0:06:56.956 follow Only Fans to its source and it brought us 0:06:56.996 --> 0:07:00.236 to a big gated house on the south coast of England, 0:07:00.676 --> 0:07:05.436 the home of Danny Harwood. Danny was the very first 0:07:05.556 --> 0:07:09.996 creator to join Only Fans when it launched. Hi everyone, 0:07:10.156 --> 0:07:13.436 my name's Danny. Welcome to my Only Fans page. Come 0:07:13.556 --> 0:07:16.196 enjoy me have a little chat. Can I see all 0:07:16.236 --> 0:07:22.356 my sexy selfies? And let's have some fun boys. But 0:07:22.476 --> 0:07:25.396 before we get to that part of the story, we 0:07:25.516 --> 0:07:28.556 have to tell you how she first met Tim Stokely, 0:07:29.036 --> 0:07:35.796 the mind behind Only Fans. It all started about twelve 0:07:35.916 --> 0:07:39.876 years ago. Danny was in her late twenties making her 0:07:39.916 --> 0:07:43.196 living as a glamor model and one day a man 0:07:43.396 --> 0:07:46.476 called Tim walked into her life with a mad cat 0:07:46.596 --> 0:07:52.116 plan to transform her into goddess Danielle. So can you 0:07:52.276 --> 0:07:57.156 tell us when and where you first met him? He 0:07:57.276 --> 0:08:03.076 contacted me for a photo shoet, having seen me on TV, 0:08:04.236 --> 0:08:11.316 and he turned up in a all roy suit with 0:08:11.436 --> 0:08:16.236 a briefcase and a copy of The Financial Times under 0:08:16.316 --> 0:08:19.836 his arm. It was just a bit who is this guy? 0:08:20.596 --> 0:08:24.036 Tim was carrying a Financial Times because his father was 0:08:24.036 --> 0:08:28.076 a banker. His brother was a banker, and Tim may 0:08:28.076 --> 0:08:31.356 have become a banker too if he didn't have other 0:08:31.476 --> 0:08:36.356 interests he wanted to pursue. He was starting a new business, 0:08:37.156 --> 0:08:41.436 a fetish side called glam Worship. He sort of looked 0:08:41.476 --> 0:08:43.796 like he was just about to go for a board meeting, 0:08:44.076 --> 0:08:46.996 not a photo shoot. That he was young, a fairly 0:08:47.036 --> 0:08:51.716 good looking guy, and just very smart and very well spoken. 0:08:51.876 --> 0:08:56.476 And he's like, right, okay, Danny, and if you just 0:08:56.676 --> 0:09:02.116 like just sit over there, and he's like, just look 0:09:02.196 --> 0:09:05.276 at the camera. He was so wonder prepared. He was 0:09:05.356 --> 0:09:10.396 so nervous. This was Tim's first shoot for glam Worship. 0:09:11.036 --> 0:09:15.596 Danny was the first model. He used his briefcase as 0:09:15.636 --> 0:09:20.116 a camera stand. And here's the extraordinary part. The origins 0:09:20.236 --> 0:09:23.796 of Only Fans can be traced straight back to the 0:09:23.916 --> 0:09:30.836 kink the website served this fetish for financial domination. Out 0:09:30.836 --> 0:09:35.636 of the photoshoot would emerge Goddess Danielle her Page told 0:09:35.716 --> 0:09:39.916 visitors it was the luckiest day of their pathetic existence. 0:09:40.356 --> 0:09:46.436 Girls would talk about financially dominating men. That's what the 0:09:46.476 --> 0:09:50.716 fetish was. So the woman is in charge and therefore 0:09:50.796 --> 0:09:54.556 they should give their money to the woman, and because 0:09:54.596 --> 0:09:59.836 they're not worthy of that money. Financial domination, the art 0:09:59.876 --> 0:10:03.436 of the finndom is not something we have made up 0:10:03.476 --> 0:10:11.556 for a Financial Times podcast about money and porn. We promise, Hello, slaves, Well, 0:10:11.596 --> 0:10:14.596 you've probably been watching me for quite a while now, 0:10:14.676 --> 0:10:22.916 haven't you seeing me grow from strength to strengths? By now? 0:10:22.956 --> 0:10:28.316 I have lots of loyal little followers, lots of loyal submissives. 0:10:30.356 --> 0:10:34.676 Some people will literally pay for the thrill of becoming 0:10:34.836 --> 0:10:39.116 a financial slave. Tim was gripped scenarios for Danny to 0:10:39.116 --> 0:10:44.756 perform to her fans or pay pets. Danny's financial slaves 0:10:44.956 --> 0:10:48.596 never actually handed over all their money even if they 0:10:48.636 --> 0:10:53.076 wanted to. They probably couldn't. The tech was still clunky, 0:10:53.596 --> 0:10:57.836 almost hacked together. Danny's pay pets could buy her stuff 0:10:57.916 --> 0:11:01.436 from an Amazon wish list or send checks to a 0:11:01.556 --> 0:11:05.596 numbered postbox. But the pay pets could never get Goddess 0:11:05.716 --> 0:11:11.156 Danielle's personal attention. They couldn't ask for her custom videos 0:11:11.476 --> 0:11:16.156 or directly fill her bank account with money. The flaws 0:11:16.196 --> 0:11:21.276 were obvious. Tim launched other ventures, hoping to solve them. 0:11:21.556 --> 0:11:25.676 Many other ventures, and after some painful trial and error, 0:11:26.276 --> 0:11:31.596 in twenty sixteen, something new came together a sight then 0:11:31.636 --> 0:11:38.996 actually worked Only Fans a platform that combined interaction, tailor 0:11:39.036 --> 0:11:42.356 made content, and a direct connection between the fan and 0:11:42.396 --> 0:11:48.756 the performer, including yes payment, with only Fans taking a 0:11:48.836 --> 0:11:53.076 twenty percent cut. Danny was one of the first to 0:11:53.156 --> 0:11:56.796 hear Tim's idea, It's like, so people can tip you 0:11:56.916 --> 0:11:59.436 on that. I was like, what, they can tip you? 0:11:59.516 --> 0:12:02.196 It's like yeah, I was like, okay, that's a game changer. 0:12:03.476 --> 0:12:07.356 This was the start of a new era. If video 0:12:07.516 --> 0:12:11.236 streaming made pawn three, Only Fans was one of the 0:12:11.276 --> 0:12:15.956 sites that began to turn the tide. People were paying 0:12:15.996 --> 0:12:20.356 for pawn again, actually getting their credit cards out, and 0:12:20.516 --> 0:12:24.916 not just to pay pornographers, a studio or a website owner. 0:12:25.476 --> 0:12:31.116 They were paying the performers direct. It was a slow start, 0:12:31.876 --> 0:12:35.676 but as new features were introduced, partly on Danny's advice, 0:12:36.556 --> 0:12:41.276 the money started rolling in through Only Fans. Danny found 0:12:41.276 --> 0:12:44.276 a way to tap her Instagram and Twitter. Following I 0:12:44.316 --> 0:12:48.316 went from earning one month between three and six thousand dollars. 0:12:48.476 --> 0:12:52.116 My next earnings was twenty two thousand. Tim asked Danny 0:12:52.276 --> 0:12:55.316 to spread the word, so she spoke with friends at 0:12:55.316 --> 0:12:59.676 the Glamor TV channel where she performed Girls as this website, 0:12:59.716 --> 0:13:02.876 you have to join it. You look at my bank statement. 0:13:02.956 --> 0:13:05.836 To look at the statement. This is what I'm being paid, 0:13:05.916 --> 0:13:08.316 this is what you could earn. They're like, wow, so 0:13:08.516 --> 0:13:12.876 quickly find them up. Danny told us that performers started 0:13:12.956 --> 0:13:16.396 leaving because they were earning so much money from their 0:13:16.436 --> 0:13:20.036 only Fans accounts and keeping most of it going into 0:13:20.036 --> 0:13:23.196 the changing room. One day and my boss had put 0:13:23.236 --> 0:13:25.876 these posters up in the changing room walled saying that 0:13:25.916 --> 0:13:29.356 you're not allowed to film any content for only fans, 0:13:29.716 --> 0:13:32.156 otherwise you're going to get the sack. They hated it. 0:13:32.596 --> 0:13:36.156 Danny says she eventually became the first to have a 0:13:36.196 --> 0:13:41.156 million dollar page to her and for many established performers, 0:13:41.876 --> 0:13:46.316 the control only Fans provided was a sort of liberation. 0:13:47.196 --> 0:13:52.036 It gave them freedom and the power that comes with money. 0:13:52.676 --> 0:13:55.876 They were being paid well enough to have leverage in 0:13:55.916 --> 0:13:59.676 the industry, something that in an age of free porm 0:13:59.876 --> 0:14:06.276 was sorely lacking. Today, Danny is still on the platform, 0:14:06.396 --> 0:14:10.836 not as God as Danielle, but under another name. She 0:14:10.996 --> 0:14:15.356 crowned herself to the Queen of Only Fans. After all 0:14:15.436 --> 0:14:19.076 these years, she is still friends with the Stokely family, 0:14:20.036 --> 0:14:24.716 and that's who we spoke with next. That's after the 0:14:24.796 --> 0:14:39.796 break act two, The Stokelease. We hopped in a car 0:14:39.916 --> 0:14:43.316 with our producer Pete Sale and headed to bishop Stortford, 0:14:43.596 --> 0:14:47.356 a rural commuter town to the northeast of London. It's 0:14:47.476 --> 0:14:50.516 near the home of the Stokelease, but not a typical 0:14:50.596 --> 0:14:54.356 spot for a company headquarters, which I should Where are 0:14:54.356 --> 0:14:57.596 we going and why? I don't even know how to 0:14:57.596 --> 0:15:07.956 pronounce it. The Bishop's destroyed great staff podcasts already. We're 0:15:07.956 --> 0:15:11.396 in the car. We're on our way to meet up 0:15:11.396 --> 0:15:21.076 with Tim and guys Stokely. We are walking past the 0:15:21.236 --> 0:15:25.316 only Fans headquarters, which are in a converted barn called 0:15:25.396 --> 0:15:29.156 Fish Barn. It looks like the south of Sweden, but 0:15:29.276 --> 0:15:32.876 we're just next to us are a couple of grain silos. 0:15:33.916 --> 0:15:37.036 It feels pretty rural. There's a thatched roof over there. 0:15:37.956 --> 0:15:40.596 Who's not why you expect businesses not make me think 0:15:40.636 --> 0:15:44.316 adult content. We were greeted by the founder, Tim Stokely 0:15:44.636 --> 0:15:47.956 and taken to a conference room overlooking a pond. My 0:15:48.076 --> 0:15:53.916 first podcast. Yeah yeah. Tim doesn't often do recorded interviews. 0:15:54.716 --> 0:15:57.236 He has a bit of a playboy image in the press. 0:15:57.876 --> 0:16:00.676 His instagram is full of glam shots of Abitha and 0:16:00.876 --> 0:16:04.996 sharp cut suits, but when we met him, that's not 0:16:05.116 --> 0:16:08.476 how he came across at all. He was almost shy, 0:16:09.396 --> 0:16:11.956 hardly the guide that was once called the King of 0:16:12.036 --> 0:16:16.276 homemade porn. He first ended up in the adult industry 0:16:16.676 --> 0:16:20.156 in part because the financial crash hit the job market 0:16:20.196 --> 0:16:23.116 in the city of London. Since he couldn't follow his 0:16:23.236 --> 0:16:27.636 father and brother into banking, he tried something else, starting 0:16:27.636 --> 0:16:32.556 internet businesses from scratch. Lots of his ideas failed miserably, 0:16:32.996 --> 0:16:35.756 but the ones in the adult business pointed him in 0:16:35.796 --> 0:16:39.756 the right direction. A lot of the models we were 0:16:39.796 --> 0:16:44.916 working with were getting inundated with private requests asking to 0:16:45.036 --> 0:16:49.956 produce these tailored custom videos. The seed of Only Fans 0:16:50.116 --> 0:16:54.516 was planted when Only Fans launched. It was intended to 0:16:54.556 --> 0:16:58.276 be for everyone. There was no homepage with porn stars, 0:16:58.596 --> 0:17:02.596 no search function to find them. There still isn't. It 0:17:02.676 --> 0:17:05.956 was really designed to be an add on service for 0:17:06.076 --> 0:17:10.036 the social media profiles that people already had. It allowed 0:17:10.076 --> 0:17:15.636 them to monetize their online following, but the creators, musicians, 0:17:15.796 --> 0:17:20.116 or influencers or fitness instructors had to bring their own 0:17:20.236 --> 0:17:23.596 fan base with them, and the first ones to do 0:17:23.676 --> 0:17:28.276 it were the porn stars. I think the adult industry 0:17:28.356 --> 0:17:30.556 is typically ahead of the curve when it comes to 0:17:30.636 --> 0:17:36.196 new tech, and I think content behind a payball model 0:17:36.316 --> 0:17:39.116 really really suited. How did you raise the money for it? 0:17:39.836 --> 0:17:43.716 That was my father, Guy, Guy Stokely is a former 0:17:43.796 --> 0:17:48.596 merchant banker. If Tim is an unlikely pornographer, Guy is 0:17:48.636 --> 0:17:52.556 a complete fish out of water. Before only fans Guy 0:17:52.716 --> 0:17:57.036 was retired. He's mild mannered and ever so polite. Tim 0:17:57.276 --> 0:18:00.356 phone me and said, I've got this really good idea, Dad, 0:18:00.916 --> 0:18:05.076 and I kind of explained that the premise of paid 0:18:05.156 --> 0:18:10.236 social media, and he told me about it, and I said, yeah, 0:18:10.276 --> 0:18:15.956 that's interesting. Picture that thought bubble coming from Guy's head. 0:18:16.836 --> 0:18:21.516 Oh god, not again. There was a healthy amount of skepticism. 0:18:21.996 --> 0:18:25.036 Guid invested in some of the previous platforms. Some have 0:18:25.156 --> 0:18:29.396 gone really well, some really badly. After many attempts that 0:18:29.516 --> 0:18:33.876 to convince him, I remember Guy saying, okay, okay, but 0:18:34.036 --> 0:18:37.756 this is the last one. The early days for Tim 0:18:37.836 --> 0:18:41.236 were a hard slog. He sent hundreds of emails to 0:18:41.356 --> 0:18:45.796 performers and influencers trying to explain how much money they 0:18:45.796 --> 0:18:49.276 could make on Only Fans. I remember receiving one email 0:18:49.716 --> 0:18:53.236 from one influencer saying, this is hands down the most 0:18:53.276 --> 0:18:57.236 stupid business idea I've ever heard in my life. Only 0:18:57.276 --> 0:19:01.196 Fans launched in twenty sixteen. One thing that really put 0:19:01.236 --> 0:19:04.756 the wind in its sails was a clever referral program 0:19:05.116 --> 0:19:08.596 giving creators a cut of other people's earnings if they 0:19:08.716 --> 0:19:12.676 brought to the platform. Guy thought Tim's goal of half 0:19:12.716 --> 0:19:17.196 a million pounds revenue in twenty seventeen was totally ridiculous. 0:19:17.756 --> 0:19:22.156 They ended up with two point four million pounds. A 0:19:22.196 --> 0:19:25.316 lot of the creators were adult performers and sitting with 0:19:25.356 --> 0:19:29.716 the stoke. Please, that's something you can easily forget. They 0:19:29.716 --> 0:19:35.236 don't seem like pawn. People mentioned nudity, and Guy almost 0:19:35.316 --> 0:19:38.676 starts to blush. I didn't think of it as being adult. 0:19:38.756 --> 0:19:43.716 I wasn't interested in adult, but it was about sporting. Tim. 0:19:44.356 --> 0:19:49.436 This was genuinely a family business. Tim was CEO and guide, 0:19:49.476 --> 0:19:53.676 the chief financial officer and supportive father. Tim's sister and 0:19:53.756 --> 0:19:57.476 his two brothers were involved. Two. But then in twenty eighteen, 0:19:58.316 --> 0:20:01.316 at a point when only Fans was growing fast and 0:20:01.356 --> 0:20:05.316 showing it had real potential, the Stoke please did something surprising. 0:20:06.476 --> 0:20:08.916 They decided it was time to bring in an outside 0:20:08.956 --> 0:20:12.756 of fester. They sold only Fans but stayed on as 0:20:12.796 --> 0:20:17.716 the executive team. Within a year of selling, their platform 0:20:17.836 --> 0:20:22.396 just exploded in popularity. Only Fans is massively a part 0:20:22.476 --> 0:20:26.476 of the pop cultures. Igeist right now, Cardibi's on the platform, 0:20:26.796 --> 0:20:29.276 Chris Brown, Now, why are you tipping this? Rich man? 0:20:29.956 --> 0:20:32.596 I think I'm gonna start a holy fans Please do it? 0:20:32.676 --> 0:20:36.876 Lonny Love, Michael B. Jordan's mustache. Beyonce even name dropped 0:20:36.916 --> 0:20:42.916 only fans in a song if she might start at 0:20:42.956 --> 0:20:48.476 only fans. During the pandemic, it reached two million creators 0:20:48.516 --> 0:20:52.716 and one hundred and eighty million users, A significant proportion 0:20:52.796 --> 0:20:57.636 of them were buying or selling pawn. Only Fans gave 0:20:57.716 --> 0:21:01.116 the tired old pawn industry a new lease of life, 0:21:01.436 --> 0:21:04.676 and everything on the site was behind a paywall, so 0:21:04.796 --> 0:21:09.116 much harder for children to access. But with the success 0:21:09.636 --> 0:21:12.756 came a lot of bad press for Tim. There were, 0:21:12.796 --> 0:21:16.756 of course stereotypes about the bling essex man making millions 0:21:16.796 --> 0:21:22.716 from pawn, but also unease over only fans, normalizing pornography, 0:21:23.196 --> 0:21:28.556 making it seem just like any other career a lot 0:21:28.596 --> 0:21:31.756 of men and women saw the huge payout to top 0:21:31.796 --> 0:21:34.836 porn stars and thought, I can give this a try. 0:21:35.676 --> 0:21:39.436 But most couldn't build a big enough following, and some 0:21:39.916 --> 0:21:43.396 probably realized porn wasn't something you can just dabble in 0:21:43.916 --> 0:21:49.316 and regretted trying anyway. It's fair to say Only Fans 0:21:49.516 --> 0:21:54.956 really caught a cultural moment and courted plenty of controversy. 0:21:55.236 --> 0:21:59.316 We of course focused on the business side and the money. 0:21:59.916 --> 0:22:03.316 What you need to understand is what makes Only Fans different. 0:22:03.956 --> 0:22:07.596 It succeeded not just because it could take money, but 0:22:07.756 --> 0:22:11.196 because it could pay it out. It built a financial 0:22:11.276 --> 0:22:15.116 bridge from fans credit cards straight to the bank accounts 0:22:15.196 --> 0:22:19.436 of creators. The bigger Only Fans became, the more its 0:22:19.476 --> 0:22:24.596 reputation was associated with a pawn revival, and the more 0:22:24.676 --> 0:22:29.036 nervous banks got moving its money around the world. So 0:22:29.156 --> 0:22:33.636 nervous one bank even stopped providing a personal bank account 0:22:33.636 --> 0:22:38.356 to Tim's brother, a former banker, just because he was 0:22:38.396 --> 0:22:41.596 involved in running Only Fans. It's a very strange way 0:22:41.636 --> 0:22:46.036 to act, but it was, you know. That's what happened. Then, 0:22:46.076 --> 0:22:49.316 in the summer of twenty twenty one, the dam burst 0:22:50.596 --> 0:22:54.916 Only Fans. The platform that changed the adult industry announced 0:22:54.916 --> 0:23:00.196 it was going to ban pawn Performers were totally stunned. 0:23:00.676 --> 0:23:04.436 Only fans will prohibit the posting of any content containing 0:23:04.516 --> 0:23:07.556 sexually explicit kind act. That leaves a lot of people 0:23:07.556 --> 0:23:10.476 worried about what's going to happen into the At least 0:23:10.556 --> 0:23:14.276 tens of thousands of creators on the platform, who, particularly 0:23:14.316 --> 0:23:17.356 during the pandemic, have made a lot of money from 0:23:17.356 --> 0:23:20.116 the safety of their haunts. Hiss, think back to the 0:23:20.156 --> 0:23:24.316 decision to ban explicit content, and yeah, what were you 0:23:24.756 --> 0:23:29.436 trying to achieve when you first made that announcement. Well, 0:23:29.436 --> 0:23:36.556 it certainly wasn't a strategic move really, Yeah, absolutely, Here, 0:23:37.156 --> 0:23:42.236 we have to pay out hundreds of millions of dollars 0:23:42.236 --> 0:23:46.236 to creators globally each month. You know, when you have 0:23:46.276 --> 0:23:49.196 to move that amount of money, you depend upon large 0:23:49.196 --> 0:23:52.596 investment banks, and we were seeing an increasing amount of 0:23:53.196 --> 0:23:57.316 wires being flagged, with some investment banks citing things like 0:23:57.436 --> 0:24:03.676 reputational risk. The precise trigger of their decision remains unclear. Here, 0:24:03.796 --> 0:24:07.596 Tim is describing the choice as a practical matter. His 0:24:07.756 --> 0:24:12.836 company's transfers were being flagged, marked down for extra checks 0:24:12.876 --> 0:24:16.316 by banks moving their money around the world. A lot 0:24:16.356 --> 0:24:20.996 of banks don't want to be associated with porn. The 0:24:21.196 --> 0:24:26.756 abrupt announcement completely through the industry. The uproar from performers 0:24:26.876 --> 0:24:31.316 was deafening. Big stars or less well known performers like 0:24:31.436 --> 0:24:35.476 Peppermint and Dusty. They relied on only fans for their livelihoods, 0:24:35.956 --> 0:24:39.996 and they were furious. And after a week of mayhem, 0:24:40.116 --> 0:24:46.236 only Fans reversed its decision. Porn went from banned too 0:24:46.316 --> 0:24:50.916 okay again all inside seven days. People who earn money 0:24:50.916 --> 0:24:54.196 on the website only fans may have a bad case 0:24:54.236 --> 0:24:56.636 of whiplash tonight, what a walk back. I guess The 0:24:56.716 --> 0:24:59.556 question is has the damage already been done? Some users 0:24:59.556 --> 0:25:03.116 really saw this as a move of only fans selling out. 0:25:03.436 --> 0:25:06.156 Only Fans said its original decision to ban porn was 0:25:06.236 --> 0:25:09.516 due to pressure from banking and payment services, but now 0:25:09.836 --> 0:25:13.276 it has secured assurances necessary to keep things as is. 0:25:14.036 --> 0:25:18.956 To everyone watching, the handling looked totally botched. It was 0:25:19.036 --> 0:25:23.156 mocked on social media and compared to Domino's trying to 0:25:23.196 --> 0:25:27.356 ban Peter. The lack of any convincing explanation at the 0:25:27.396 --> 0:25:33.196 time also fed all sorts of conspiracy theories. Tim actually 0:25:33.236 --> 0:25:36.676 insists the reversal was enabled by an interview he did 0:25:36.716 --> 0:25:39.476 with me over the phone last year. It was for 0:25:39.516 --> 0:25:42.356 a piece in the Financial Times that brands straight after 0:25:42.396 --> 0:25:45.476 the ban, where he named some of the banks causing 0:25:45.476 --> 0:25:50.276 only fans problems. After that article was published, he said 0:25:50.396 --> 0:25:55.396 the mood changed, the banks gave him the assurances he needed. 0:25:56.316 --> 0:26:00.436 Do you have regrets on how you handled it? Looking back? 0:26:03.116 --> 0:26:05.316 Not on how it was handled. I don't think we 0:26:05.356 --> 0:26:09.436 had much of a choice, but I deeply regret amount 0:26:09.476 --> 0:26:13.836 of concern an anxiety it caused. I mean for a 0:26:13.836 --> 0:26:16.116 lot of people it was it's like being cut down 0:26:16.116 --> 0:26:19.956 at the knees and why should they trust any fans 0:26:20.036 --> 0:26:24.316 not to do this again? And well, I you know, 0:26:24.356 --> 0:26:30.316 I think what this, what this put a spotlight on, 0:26:30.556 --> 0:26:36.196 was the discriminatory policies within the banking system, and that's 0:26:36.236 --> 0:26:39.676 where the focus is. I think Tim here is talking 0:26:39.676 --> 0:26:43.636 about banks making life difficult for companies just because they're 0:26:43.676 --> 0:26:48.716 associated with adult content. The problem isn't necessarily allowing pawn 0:26:48.796 --> 0:26:53.036 on a platform. Twitter, for instance, permits adult content on 0:26:53.236 --> 0:26:56.996 parts of its platform and hosts lots of pawn without 0:26:57.076 --> 0:27:00.956 much trouble. The issue start when a company has so 0:27:01.076 --> 0:27:05.036 much pawn or makes so much money from pawn it 0:27:05.196 --> 0:27:10.156 starts to look like a pawn company. After that, basic 0:27:10.276 --> 0:27:14.916 finance dries up, banking becomes harder and a lot more expensive. 0:27:15.956 --> 0:27:18.596 There are lots of people in the pawn industry who 0:27:18.636 --> 0:27:21.756 find it hard to believe that only fans got cold 0:27:21.836 --> 0:27:25.916 feet for a mundane reason like financing. They are still 0:27:25.996 --> 0:27:31.716 convinced the whole pawn band fiasco was actually a publicity stunt, 0:27:32.316 --> 0:27:36.316 some cunning plan that's that's entirely false. I think we've 0:27:36.356 --> 0:27:42.316 perhaps been victim to some you know, unfair reporting, which 0:27:43.796 --> 0:27:46.156 you know it has led to some criticism that is 0:27:46.876 --> 0:27:51.756 based on moral outrage rather than evidence or facts or statistics. 0:27:51.876 --> 0:27:56.116 Couldn't you have had that conversation with your financial partners before, 0:27:56.396 --> 0:27:59.076 you know, if they were all happy? Couldn't you have 0:27:59.156 --> 0:28:02.516 gone to your financial partners? I said, we could we 0:28:02.556 --> 0:28:04.956 have handled it in a different way. Years of course 0:28:04.996 --> 0:28:11.796 we could. Um, but um, We're happy where we ended. Huh. 0:28:13.836 --> 0:28:16.316 At the end of our interviews, the Stoke Please took 0:28:16.356 --> 0:28:20.236 us to their office. In there was another brother wearing 0:28:20.276 --> 0:28:23.236 a wooly jumper that looked like an early Christmas present. 0:28:23.876 --> 0:28:27.756 There were ducks wandering around a patio, crooked trinkets on 0:28:27.796 --> 0:28:32.156 the desks. It seemed just a setting for a charming 0:28:32.236 --> 0:28:38.516 family business. But for only fans. Something didn't quite seem right, 0:28:39.236 --> 0:28:50.196 and it wasn't. We'll be right back Act three, reading 0:28:50.196 --> 0:28:54.316 the fine print. Within three weeks of us visiting, the 0:28:54.436 --> 0:28:58.396 Stoke Please had left only fans. Tim stepped down as 0:28:58.476 --> 0:29:01.996 chief executive and guy and the rest of the family followed. 0:29:02.796 --> 0:29:07.996 Just like that, the Stoke Please had gone. We'll admit it. 0:29:08.316 --> 0:29:11.796 We were confused. We called them to ask what happened. 0:29:12.596 --> 0:29:16.556 We didn't get much of an answer. Now, the story 0:29:16.596 --> 0:29:19.396 of the Stoke These and only fans that you heard earlier, 0:29:19.916 --> 0:29:23.316 that was all true, the family business, the way only 0:29:23.356 --> 0:29:27.556 fans democratized porn. But we later learned that was only 0:29:27.676 --> 0:29:31.396 one side of the story. Like looking at a movie 0:29:31.396 --> 0:29:35.956 sets from a single camera. It didn't explain why the 0:29:35.996 --> 0:29:40.916 Stokelees left only fans, or that crazy hokey cokey over 0:29:40.996 --> 0:29:45.396 banning porn, or why they sold their company when it 0:29:45.476 --> 0:29:49.276 was doing so well in twenty eighteen. To figure out 0:29:49.316 --> 0:29:53.076 what was going on, we need to rewind and look 0:29:53.076 --> 0:29:56.556 out of shot, and that starts with the current owner, 0:29:56.996 --> 0:29:59.716 the guy who bought only Fans from the Stoke Lease 0:29:59.996 --> 0:30:04.356 in twenty eighteen. Now, plenty of investors have attempted to 0:30:04.396 --> 0:30:09.476 buy only Fans over the years, mainstream investors. But when 0:30:09.516 --> 0:30:12.356 the Stoke Lease sold, it was to a man called 0:30:12.436 --> 0:30:17.596 Leo Radvinski, a forty year old Ukrainian American who made 0:30:17.676 --> 0:30:21.916 his fortune in the pawn industry. We'd love to have 0:30:21.996 --> 0:30:26.356 spoken to him, but he declined he's not one for publicity. 0:30:27.156 --> 0:30:30.196