1 00:00:15,516 --> 00:00:25,196 Speaker 1: Pushkin before we start a warning. Our investigation looks into 2 00:00:25,196 --> 00:00:29,236 Speaker 1: power and the porn industry. This episode contains adult themes. 3 00:00:33,156 --> 00:00:36,516 Speaker 1: In previous episodes, we've told you about men at the 4 00:00:36,596 --> 00:00:42,596 Speaker 1: top of porn, their ambition, their power battles, their relentless 5 00:00:42,596 --> 00:00:47,676 Speaker 1: efforts to remain unknown to the world. We looked at 6 00:00:47,716 --> 00:00:51,556 Speaker 1: how they cornered the most lucrative parts of the adult business, 7 00:00:51,556 --> 00:00:56,236 Speaker 1: either by owning tech platforms or production studios or both. 8 00:00:57,276 --> 00:01:02,076 Speaker 1: Porn profits flowed to owners and middlemen, but not so 9 00:01:02,196 --> 00:01:06,396 Speaker 1: much to performers. Now we're going to tell you about 10 00:01:06,556 --> 00:01:11,636 Speaker 1: the company that reset the ballot, the company that, whether 11 00:01:11,676 --> 00:01:15,436 Speaker 1: it intended to or not, managed to shift money and 12 00:01:15,636 --> 00:01:20,396 Speaker 1: power back to performers in a huge way. You may 13 00:01:20,396 --> 00:01:24,116 Speaker 1: have heard its name. He became so popular during the pandemic. 14 00:01:24,716 --> 00:01:28,676 Speaker 1: Even my mother had heard its name. We're talking about 15 00:01:28,716 --> 00:01:32,756 Speaker 1: Only Fans. Only Fans as a social media platform just 16 00:01:32,796 --> 00:01:35,356 Speaker 1: like those you use already, but which allows you to 17 00:01:35,396 --> 00:01:38,676 Speaker 1: set a monthly subscription price, ensuring that any media you 18 00:01:38,796 --> 00:01:42,156 Speaker 1: upload is fully hidden until your fans pay your subscription. 19 00:01:44,156 --> 00:01:48,196 Speaker 1: We are not the average demographic. We are on the 20 00:01:48,236 --> 00:01:54,556 Speaker 1: more mature sides of your typical webcam broadcaster, This is Peppermint. 21 00:01:55,356 --> 00:01:58,596 Speaker 1: It's the stage name she uses for the adult enterprise 22 00:01:58,636 --> 00:02:01,756 Speaker 1: she runs with her husband, Dusty, also a stage name. 23 00:02:02,636 --> 00:02:06,556 Speaker 1: Our shows can run anywhere between four to eight hours 24 00:02:06,556 --> 00:02:11,316 Speaker 1: eight hours time. All of that is sexual engagement. We 25 00:02:11,436 --> 00:02:14,356 Speaker 1: have amazing conversations with our viewers. We like to dive 26 00:02:14,436 --> 00:02:18,596 Speaker 1: deep into the meaning of life and relationships and sexuality. 27 00:02:19,316 --> 00:02:22,876 Speaker 1: We met at a pawn event in la where Dusty 28 00:02:22,916 --> 00:02:27,356 Speaker 1: and Peppermint were promoting their business and meeting fans. They're 29 00:02:27,396 --> 00:02:31,276 Speaker 1: mainly known for their live video work on campsites those 30 00:02:31,356 --> 00:02:37,276 Speaker 1: a tower shows that can include sex, fire, spinning, acrobatic yoga, 31 00:02:37,356 --> 00:02:42,516 Speaker 1: and cooking, trying to promote real sex between real people 32 00:02:42,716 --> 00:02:48,316 Speaker 1: rather than a fantasy scenario created by a studio. Over time, 33 00:02:48,356 --> 00:02:52,516 Speaker 1: they've branched out selling clips on video platforms and reaching 34 00:02:52,556 --> 00:02:56,276 Speaker 1: their most loyal supporters through an only Fans account. So 35 00:02:56,356 --> 00:02:59,516 Speaker 1: with the explosion of people turning to only Fans, turning 36 00:02:59,556 --> 00:03:03,116 Speaker 1: to content creation, turning to online work, I think there 37 00:03:03,236 --> 00:03:07,556 Speaker 1: is a lot more acceptance of it in the mainstream audience. 38 00:03:08,716 --> 00:03:12,316 Speaker 1: Only Fans is a platform that launched in twenty sixteen. 39 00:03:12,596 --> 00:03:16,836 Speaker 1: It's basically a special kind of social media site. It 40 00:03:16,956 --> 00:03:21,396 Speaker 1: lets you message followers or upload videos or posts, just 41 00:03:21,676 --> 00:03:25,556 Speaker 1: like Instagram or Facebook. The twist with only Fans is 42 00:03:25,556 --> 00:03:30,156 Speaker 1: that your content lives behind a paywall. Visitors pay you 43 00:03:30,396 --> 00:03:33,156 Speaker 1: to view it. They can even pay you to produce 44 00:03:33,236 --> 00:03:38,876 Speaker 1: media just for them. This seemingly small difference the paywall 45 00:03:39,596 --> 00:03:45,956 Speaker 1: changed how a whole generation of online stars earned their living. Influencers, musicians, 46 00:03:46,316 --> 00:03:51,756 Speaker 1: fitness instructors, but especially porn stars. Only Fans made the 47 00:03:51,796 --> 00:03:57,596 Speaker 1: industry's most famous performers seriously rich. Some have earned millions 48 00:03:57,636 --> 00:04:01,036 Speaker 1: and allowed them to make videos at home on their 49 00:04:01,036 --> 00:04:05,596 Speaker 1: own terms. Most Only Fans creators are and big stars, 50 00:04:05,636 --> 00:04:10,036 Speaker 1: but more like Peppermint and Dusty, the PM has allowed 51 00:04:10,076 --> 00:04:14,156 Speaker 1: them to generate a modest study income. It made it 52 00:04:14,196 --> 00:04:18,156 Speaker 1: easier than ever to make money from porn until the 53 00:04:18,236 --> 00:04:23,316 Speaker 1: moment Only Fans announced that porn wouldn't be welcome anymore. 54 00:04:23,756 --> 00:04:26,956 Speaker 1: Can you tell us about the day that Only Fans 55 00:04:27,076 --> 00:04:31,596 Speaker 1: banned porn? We had actually been on a trip up 56 00:04:31,636 --> 00:04:34,116 Speaker 1: to the mountains, and we had gone just to a 57 00:04:34,156 --> 00:04:37,956 Speaker 1: different locations so we could shoot some new content specifically 58 00:04:38,076 --> 00:04:41,196 Speaker 1: for only Fans. I opened up the app on my 59 00:04:41,276 --> 00:04:44,676 Speaker 1: phone and I see Twitter, and I see all these 60 00:04:44,756 --> 00:04:49,436 Speaker 1: posts about only fans banning porn. So I remember driving 61 00:04:49,476 --> 00:04:54,876 Speaker 1: down the mountains seeing our follower account just drop literally 62 00:04:54,916 --> 00:04:57,796 Speaker 1: in half, which means we also lost half of our income. 63 00:04:58,396 --> 00:05:01,916 Speaker 1: I think that these rules and these changes almost affect 64 00:05:01,916 --> 00:05:06,316 Speaker 1: the smaller creators more so. The platform that totally transformed 65 00:05:06,316 --> 00:05:10,876 Speaker 1: the pawn industry decided to ban pawn to become a 66 00:05:10,996 --> 00:05:15,596 Speaker 1: safe for work service. Then just one week later, Only 67 00:05:15,596 --> 00:05:20,276 Speaker 1: Fans changed its mind. Pawn was okay again. They canceled 68 00:05:20,516 --> 00:05:25,716 Speaker 1: the cancelation. It was so farcical. Only Fans made headlines 69 00:05:25,836 --> 00:05:29,076 Speaker 1: around the world. And what about them when they reversed 70 00:05:29,076 --> 00:05:32,636 Speaker 1: the band? How did you feel them? You always kind 71 00:05:32,636 --> 00:05:35,476 Speaker 1: of sit there and wonder when it's going to happen again, 72 00:05:35,996 --> 00:05:38,116 Speaker 1: and you know what's going to be the next trigger. 73 00:05:38,196 --> 00:05:45,956 Speaker 1: Why are they going to do it this time? What happened? 74 00:05:46,876 --> 00:05:49,316 Speaker 1: We decided to seek out only fans and where it 75 00:05:49,396 --> 00:05:53,596 Speaker 1: came from a close knit family from Essex, the New 76 00:05:53,716 --> 00:05:57,996 Speaker 1: Jersey of England. They're the most miscast porn barons you 77 00:05:58,036 --> 00:06:04,396 Speaker 1: can imagine, and yet they somehow confirmed power and porn 78 00:06:05,396 --> 00:06:10,516 Speaker 1: is all about the payments. I'm Alex Barker, I'm Patrician 79 00:06:10,516 --> 00:06:15,116 Speaker 1: Nelson from Pushkin Industries. And the Financial Times. This is 80 00:06:15,156 --> 00:06:53,156 Speaker 1: hot Money, Act one financial domination. We set out to 81 00:06:53,276 --> 00:06:56,956 Speaker 1: follow Only Fans to its source and it brought us 82 00:06:56,996 --> 00:07:00,236 Speaker 1: to a big gated house on the south coast of England, 83 00:07:00,676 --> 00:07:05,436 Speaker 1: the home of Danny Harwood. Danny was the very first 84 00:07:05,556 --> 00:07:09,996 Speaker 1: creator to join Only Fans when it launched. Hi everyone, 85 00:07:10,156 --> 00:07:13,436 Speaker 1: my name's Danny. Welcome to my Only Fans page. Come 86 00:07:13,556 --> 00:07:16,196 Speaker 1: enjoy me have a little chat. Can I see all 87 00:07:16,236 --> 00:07:22,356 Speaker 1: my sexy selfies? And let's have some fun boys. But 88 00:07:22,476 --> 00:07:25,396 Speaker 1: before we get to that part of the story, we 89 00:07:25,516 --> 00:07:28,556 Speaker 1: have to tell you how she first met Tim Stokely, 90 00:07:29,036 --> 00:07:35,796 Speaker 1: the mind behind Only Fans. It all started about twelve 91 00:07:35,916 --> 00:07:39,876 Speaker 1: years ago. Danny was in her late twenties making her 92 00:07:39,916 --> 00:07:43,196 Speaker 1: living as a glamor model and one day a man 93 00:07:43,396 --> 00:07:46,476 Speaker 1: called Tim walked into her life with a mad cat 94 00:07:46,596 --> 00:07:52,116 Speaker 1: plan to transform her into goddess Danielle. So can you 95 00:07:52,276 --> 00:07:57,156 Speaker 1: tell us when and where you first met him? He 96 00:07:57,276 --> 00:08:03,076 Speaker 1: contacted me for a photo shoet, having seen me on TV, 97 00:08:04,236 --> 00:08:11,316 Speaker 1: and he turned up in a all roy suit with 98 00:08:11,436 --> 00:08:16,236 Speaker 1: a briefcase and a copy of The Financial Times under 99 00:08:16,316 --> 00:08:19,836 Speaker 1: his arm. It was just a bit who is this guy? 100 00:08:20,596 --> 00:08:24,036 Speaker 1: Tim was carrying a Financial Times because his father was 101 00:08:24,036 --> 00:08:28,076 Speaker 1: a banker. His brother was a banker, and Tim may 102 00:08:28,076 --> 00:08:31,356 Speaker 1: have become a banker too if he didn't have other 103 00:08:31,476 --> 00:08:36,356 Speaker 1: interests he wanted to pursue. He was starting a new business, 104 00:08:37,156 --> 00:08:41,436 Speaker 1: a fetish side called glam Worship. He sort of looked 105 00:08:41,476 --> 00:08:43,796 Speaker 1: like he was just about to go for a board meeting, 106 00:08:44,076 --> 00:08:46,996 Speaker 1: not a photo shoot. That he was young, a fairly 107 00:08:47,036 --> 00:08:51,716 Speaker 1: good looking guy, and just very smart and very well spoken. 108 00:08:51,876 --> 00:08:56,476 Speaker 1: And he's like, right, okay, Danny, and if you just 109 00:08:56,676 --> 00:09:02,116 Speaker 1: like just sit over there, and he's like, just look 110 00:09:02,196 --> 00:09:05,276 Speaker 1: at the camera. He was so wonder prepared. He was 111 00:09:05,356 --> 00:09:10,396 Speaker 1: so nervous. This was Tim's first shoot for glam Worship. 112 00:09:11,036 --> 00:09:15,596 Speaker 1: Danny was the first model. He used his briefcase as 113 00:09:15,636 --> 00:09:20,116 Speaker 1: a camera stand. And here's the extraordinary part. The origins 114 00:09:20,236 --> 00:09:23,796 Speaker 1: of Only Fans can be traced straight back to the 115 00:09:23,916 --> 00:09:30,836 Speaker 1: kink the website served this fetish for financial domination. Out 116 00:09:30,836 --> 00:09:35,636 Speaker 1: of the photoshoot would emerge Goddess Danielle her Page told 117 00:09:35,716 --> 00:09:39,916 Speaker 1: visitors it was the luckiest day of their pathetic existence. 118 00:09:40,356 --> 00:09:46,436 Speaker 1: Girls would talk about financially dominating men. That's what the 119 00:09:46,476 --> 00:09:50,716 Speaker 1: fetish was. So the woman is in charge and therefore 120 00:09:50,796 --> 00:09:54,556 Speaker 1: they should give their money to the woman, and because 121 00:09:54,596 --> 00:09:59,836 Speaker 1: they're not worthy of that money. Financial domination, the art 122 00:09:59,876 --> 00:10:03,436 Speaker 1: of the finndom is not something we have made up 123 00:10:03,476 --> 00:10:11,556 Speaker 1: for a Financial Times podcast about money and porn. We promise, Hello, slaves, Well, 124 00:10:11,596 --> 00:10:14,596 Speaker 1: you've probably been watching me for quite a while now, 125 00:10:14,676 --> 00:10:22,916 Speaker 1: haven't you seeing me grow from strength to strengths? By now? 126 00:10:22,956 --> 00:10:28,316 Speaker 1: I have lots of loyal little followers, lots of loyal submissives. 127 00:10:30,356 --> 00:10:34,676 Speaker 1: Some people will literally pay for the thrill of becoming 128 00:10:34,836 --> 00:10:39,116 Speaker 1: a financial slave. Tim was gripped scenarios for Danny to 129 00:10:39,116 --> 00:10:44,756 Speaker 1: perform to her fans or pay pets. Danny's financial slaves 130 00:10:44,956 --> 00:10:48,596 Speaker 1: never actually handed over all their money even if they 131 00:10:48,636 --> 00:10:53,076 Speaker 1: wanted to. They probably couldn't. The tech was still clunky, 132 00:10:53,596 --> 00:10:57,836 Speaker 1: almost hacked together. Danny's pay pets could buy her stuff 133 00:10:57,916 --> 00:11:01,436 Speaker 1: from an Amazon wish list or send checks to a 134 00:11:01,556 --> 00:11:05,596 Speaker 1: numbered postbox. But the pay pets could never get Goddess 135 00:11:05,716 --> 00:11:11,156 Speaker 1: Danielle's personal attention. They couldn't ask for her custom videos 136 00:11:11,476 --> 00:11:16,156 Speaker 1: or directly fill her bank account with money. The flaws 137 00:11:16,196 --> 00:11:21,276 Speaker 1: were obvious. Tim launched other ventures, hoping to solve them. 138 00:11:21,556 --> 00:11:25,676 Speaker 1: Many other ventures, and after some painful trial and error, 139 00:11:26,276 --> 00:11:31,596 Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, something new came together a sight then 140 00:11:31,636 --> 00:11:38,996 Speaker 1: actually worked Only Fans a platform that combined interaction, tailor 141 00:11:39,036 --> 00:11:42,356 Speaker 1: made content, and a direct connection between the fan and 142 00:11:42,396 --> 00:11:48,756 Speaker 1: the performer, including yes payment, with only Fans taking a 143 00:11:48,836 --> 00:11:53,076 Speaker 1: twenty percent cut. Danny was one of the first to 144 00:11:53,156 --> 00:11:56,796 Speaker 1: hear Tim's idea, It's like, so people can tip you 145 00:11:56,916 --> 00:11:59,436 Speaker 1: on that. I was like, what, they can tip you? 146 00:11:59,516 --> 00:12:02,196 Speaker 1: It's like yeah, I was like, okay, that's a game changer. 147 00:12:03,476 --> 00:12:07,356 Speaker 1: This was the start of a new era. If video 148 00:12:07,516 --> 00:12:11,236 Speaker 1: streaming made pawn three, Only Fans was one of the 149 00:12:11,276 --> 00:12:15,956 Speaker 1: sites that began to turn the tide. People were paying 150 00:12:15,996 --> 00:12:20,356 Speaker 1: for pawn again, actually getting their credit cards out, and 151 00:12:20,516 --> 00:12:24,916 Speaker 1: not just to pay pornographers, a studio or a website owner. 152 00:12:25,476 --> 00:12:31,116 Speaker 1: They were paying the performers direct. It was a slow start, 153 00:12:31,876 --> 00:12:35,676 Speaker 1: but as new features were introduced, partly on Danny's advice, 154 00:12:36,556 --> 00:12:41,276 Speaker 1: the money started rolling in through Only Fans. Danny found 155 00:12:41,276 --> 00:12:44,276 Speaker 1: a way to tap her Instagram and Twitter. Following I 156 00:12:44,316 --> 00:12:48,316 Speaker 1: went from earning one month between three and six thousand dollars. 157 00:12:48,476 --> 00:12:52,116 Speaker 1: My next earnings was twenty two thousand. Tim asked Danny 158 00:12:52,276 --> 00:12:55,316 Speaker 1: to spread the word, so she spoke with friends at 159 00:12:55,316 --> 00:12:59,676 Speaker 1: the Glamor TV channel where she performed Girls as this website, 160 00:12:59,716 --> 00:13:02,876 Speaker 1: you have to join it. You look at my bank statement. 161 00:13:02,956 --> 00:13:05,836 Speaker 1: To look at the statement. This is what I'm being paid, 162 00:13:05,916 --> 00:13:08,316 Speaker 1: this is what you could earn. They're like, wow, so 163 00:13:08,516 --> 00:13:12,876 Speaker 1: quickly find them up. Danny told us that performers started 164 00:13:12,956 --> 00:13:16,396 Speaker 1: leaving because they were earning so much money from their 165 00:13:16,436 --> 00:13:20,036 Speaker 1: only Fans accounts and keeping most of it going into 166 00:13:20,036 --> 00:13:23,196 Speaker 1: the changing room. One day and my boss had put 167 00:13:23,236 --> 00:13:25,876 Speaker 1: these posters up in the changing room walled saying that 168 00:13:25,916 --> 00:13:29,356 Speaker 1: you're not allowed to film any content for only fans, 169 00:13:29,716 --> 00:13:32,156 Speaker 1: otherwise you're going to get the sack. They hated it. 170 00:13:32,596 --> 00:13:36,156 Speaker 1: Danny says she eventually became the first to have a 171 00:13:36,196 --> 00:13:41,156 Speaker 1: million dollar page to her and for many established performers, 172 00:13:41,876 --> 00:13:46,316 Speaker 1: the control only Fans provided was a sort of liberation. 173 00:13:47,196 --> 00:13:52,036 Speaker 1: It gave them freedom and the power that comes with money. 174 00:13:52,676 --> 00:13:55,876 Speaker 1: They were being paid well enough to have leverage in 175 00:13:55,916 --> 00:13:59,676 Speaker 1: the industry, something that in an age of free porm 176 00:13:59,876 --> 00:14:06,276 Speaker 1: was sorely lacking. Today, Danny is still on the platform, 177 00:14:06,396 --> 00:14:10,836 Speaker 1: not as God as Danielle, but under another name. She 178 00:14:10,996 --> 00:14:15,356 Speaker 1: crowned herself to the Queen of Only Fans. After all 179 00:14:15,436 --> 00:14:19,076 Speaker 1: these years, she is still friends with the Stokely family, 180 00:14:20,036 --> 00:14:24,716 Speaker 1: and that's who we spoke with next. That's after the 181 00:14:24,796 --> 00:14:39,796 Speaker 1: break act two, The Stokelease. We hopped in a car 182 00:14:39,916 --> 00:14:43,316 Speaker 1: with our producer Pete Sale and headed to bishop Stortford, 183 00:14:43,596 --> 00:14:47,356 Speaker 1: a rural commuter town to the northeast of London. It's 184 00:14:47,476 --> 00:14:50,516 Speaker 1: near the home of the Stokelease, but not a typical 185 00:14:50,596 --> 00:14:54,356 Speaker 1: spot for a company headquarters, which I should Where are 186 00:14:54,356 --> 00:14:57,596 Speaker 1: we going and why? I don't even know how to 187 00:14:57,596 --> 00:15:07,956 Speaker 1: pronounce it. The Bishop's destroyed great staff podcasts already. We're 188 00:15:07,956 --> 00:15:11,396 Speaker 1: in the car. We're on our way to meet up 189 00:15:11,396 --> 00:15:21,076 Speaker 1: with Tim and guys Stokely. We are walking past the 190 00:15:21,236 --> 00:15:25,316 Speaker 1: only Fans headquarters, which are in a converted barn called 191 00:15:25,396 --> 00:15:29,156 Speaker 1: Fish Barn. It looks like the south of Sweden, but 192 00:15:29,276 --> 00:15:32,876 Speaker 1: we're just next to us are a couple of grain silos. 193 00:15:33,916 --> 00:15:37,036 Speaker 1: It feels pretty rural. There's a thatched roof over there. 194 00:15:37,956 --> 00:15:40,596 Speaker 1: Who's not why you expect businesses not make me think 195 00:15:40,636 --> 00:15:44,316 Speaker 1: adult content. We were greeted by the founder, Tim Stokely 196 00:15:44,636 --> 00:15:47,956 Speaker 1: and taken to a conference room overlooking a pond. My 197 00:15:48,076 --> 00:15:53,916 Speaker 1: first podcast. Yeah yeah. Tim doesn't often do recorded interviews. 198 00:15:54,716 --> 00:15:57,236 Speaker 1: He has a bit of a playboy image in the press. 199 00:15:57,876 --> 00:16:00,676 Speaker 1: His instagram is full of glam shots of Abitha and 200 00:16:00,876 --> 00:16:04,996 Speaker 1: sharp cut suits, but when we met him, that's not 201 00:16:05,116 --> 00:16:08,476 Speaker 1: how he came across at all. He was almost shy, 202 00:16:09,396 --> 00:16:11,956 Speaker 1: hardly the guide that was once called the King of 203 00:16:12,036 --> 00:16:16,276 Speaker 1: homemade porn. He first ended up in the adult industry 204 00:16:16,676 --> 00:16:20,156 Speaker 1: in part because the financial crash hit the job market 205 00:16:20,196 --> 00:16:23,116 Speaker 1: in the city of London. Since he couldn't follow his 206 00:16:23,236 --> 00:16:27,636 Speaker 1: father and brother into banking, he tried something else, starting 207 00:16:27,636 --> 00:16:32,556 Speaker 1: internet businesses from scratch. Lots of his ideas failed miserably, 208 00:16:32,996 --> 00:16:35,756 Speaker 1: but the ones in the adult business pointed him in 209 00:16:35,796 --> 00:16:39,756 Speaker 1: the right direction. A lot of the models we were 210 00:16:39,796 --> 00:16:44,916 Speaker 1: working with were getting inundated with private requests asking to 211 00:16:45,036 --> 00:16:49,956 Speaker 1: produce these tailored custom videos. The seed of Only Fans 212 00:16:50,116 --> 00:16:54,516 Speaker 1: was planted when Only Fans launched. It was intended to 213 00:16:54,556 --> 00:16:58,276 Speaker 1: be for everyone. There was no homepage with porn stars, 214 00:16:58,596 --> 00:17:02,596 Speaker 1: no search function to find them. There still isn't. It 215 00:17:02,676 --> 00:17:05,956 Speaker 1: was really designed to be an add on service for 216 00:17:06,076 --> 00:17:10,036 Speaker 1: the social media profiles that people already had. It allowed 217 00:17:10,076 --> 00:17:15,636 Speaker 1: them to monetize their online following, but the creators, musicians, 218 00:17:15,796 --> 00:17:20,116 Speaker 1: or influencers or fitness instructors had to bring their own 219 00:17:20,236 --> 00:17:23,596 Speaker 1: fan base with them, and the first ones to do 220 00:17:23,676 --> 00:17:28,276 Speaker 1: it were the porn stars. I think the adult industry 221 00:17:28,356 --> 00:17:30,556 Speaker 1: is typically ahead of the curve when it comes to 222 00:17:30,636 --> 00:17:36,196 Speaker 1: new tech, and I think content behind a payball model 223 00:17:36,316 --> 00:17:39,116 Speaker 1: really really suited. How did you raise the money for it? 224 00:17:39,836 --> 00:17:43,716 Speaker 1: That was my father, Guy, Guy Stokely is a former 225 00:17:43,796 --> 00:17:48,596 Speaker 1: merchant banker. If Tim is an unlikely pornographer, Guy is 226 00:17:48,636 --> 00:17:52,556 Speaker 1: a complete fish out of water. Before only fans Guy 227 00:17:52,716 --> 00:17:57,036 Speaker 1: was retired. He's mild mannered and ever so polite. Tim 228 00:17:57,276 --> 00:18:00,356 Speaker 1: phone me and said, I've got this really good idea, Dad, 229 00:18:00,916 --> 00:18:05,076 Speaker 1: and I kind of explained that the premise of paid 230 00:18:05,156 --> 00:18:10,236 Speaker 1: social media, and he told me about it, and I said, yeah, 231 00:18:10,276 --> 00:18:15,956 Speaker 1: that's interesting. Picture that thought bubble coming from Guy's head. 232 00:18:16,836 --> 00:18:21,516 Speaker 1: Oh god, not again. There was a healthy amount of skepticism. 233 00:18:21,996 --> 00:18:25,036 Speaker 1: Guid invested in some of the previous platforms. Some have 234 00:18:25,156 --> 00:18:29,396 Speaker 1: gone really well, some really badly. After many attempts that 235 00:18:29,516 --> 00:18:33,876 Speaker 1: to convince him, I remember Guy saying, okay, okay, but 236 00:18:34,036 --> 00:18:37,756 Speaker 1: this is the last one. The early days for Tim 237 00:18:37,836 --> 00:18:41,236 Speaker 1: were a hard slog. He sent hundreds of emails to 238 00:18:41,356 --> 00:18:45,796 Speaker 1: performers and influencers trying to explain how much money they 239 00:18:45,796 --> 00:18:49,276 Speaker 1: could make on Only Fans. I remember receiving one email 240 00:18:49,716 --> 00:18:53,236 Speaker 1: from one influencer saying, this is hands down the most 241 00:18:53,276 --> 00:18:57,236 Speaker 1: stupid business idea I've ever heard in my life. Only 242 00:18:57,276 --> 00:19:01,196 Speaker 1: Fans launched in twenty sixteen. One thing that really put 243 00:19:01,236 --> 00:19:04,756 Speaker 1: the wind in its sails was a clever referral program 244 00:19:05,116 --> 00:19:08,596 Speaker 1: giving creators a cut of other people's earnings if they 245 00:19:08,716 --> 00:19:12,676 Speaker 1: brought to the platform. Guy thought Tim's goal of half 246 00:19:12,716 --> 00:19:17,196 Speaker 1: a million pounds revenue in twenty seventeen was totally ridiculous. 247 00:19:17,756 --> 00:19:22,156 Speaker 1: They ended up with two point four million pounds. A 248 00:19:22,196 --> 00:19:25,316 Speaker 1: lot of the creators were adult performers and sitting with 249 00:19:25,356 --> 00:19:29,716 Speaker 1: the stoke. Please, that's something you can easily forget. They 250 00:19:29,716 --> 00:19:35,236 Speaker 1: don't seem like pawn. People mentioned nudity, and Guy almost 251 00:19:35,316 --> 00:19:38,676 Speaker 1: starts to blush. I didn't think of it as being adult. 252 00:19:38,756 --> 00:19:43,716 Speaker 1: I wasn't interested in adult, but it was about sporting. Tim. 253 00:19:44,356 --> 00:19:49,436 Speaker 1: This was genuinely a family business. Tim was CEO and guide, 254 00:19:49,476 --> 00:19:53,676 Speaker 1: the chief financial officer and supportive father. Tim's sister and 255 00:19:53,756 --> 00:19:57,476 Speaker 1: his two brothers were involved. Two. But then in twenty eighteen, 256 00:19:58,316 --> 00:20:01,316 Speaker 1: at a point when only Fans was growing fast and 257 00:20:01,356 --> 00:20:05,316 Speaker 1: showing it had real potential, the Stoke please did something surprising. 258 00:20:06,476 --> 00:20:08,916 Speaker 1: They decided it was time to bring in an outside 259 00:20:08,956 --> 00:20:12,756 Speaker 1: of fester. They sold only Fans but stayed on as 260 00:20:12,796 --> 00:20:17,716 Speaker 1: the executive team. Within a year of selling, their platform 261 00:20:17,836 --> 00:20:22,396 Speaker 1: just exploded in popularity. Only Fans is massively a part 262 00:20:22,476 --> 00:20:26,476 Speaker 1: of the pop cultures. Igeist right now, Cardibi's on the platform, 263 00:20:26,796 --> 00:20:29,276 Speaker 1: Chris Brown, Now, why are you tipping this? Rich man? 264 00:20:29,956 --> 00:20:32,596 Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna start a holy fans Please do it? 265 00:20:32,676 --> 00:20:36,876 Speaker 1: Lonny Love, Michael B. Jordan's mustache. Beyonce even name dropped 266 00:20:36,916 --> 00:20:42,916 Speaker 1: only fans in a song if she might start at 267 00:20:42,956 --> 00:20:48,476 Speaker 1: only fans. During the pandemic, it reached two million creators 268 00:20:48,516 --> 00:20:52,716 Speaker 1: and one hundred and eighty million users, A significant proportion 269 00:20:52,796 --> 00:20:57,636 Speaker 1: of them were buying or selling pawn. Only Fans gave 270 00:20:57,716 --> 00:21:01,116 Speaker 1: the tired old pawn industry a new lease of life, 271 00:21:01,436 --> 00:21:04,676 Speaker 1: and everything on the site was behind a paywall, so 272 00:21:04,796 --> 00:21:09,116 Speaker 1: much harder for children to access. But with the success 273 00:21:09,636 --> 00:21:12,756 Speaker 1: came a lot of bad press for Tim. There were, 274 00:21:12,796 --> 00:21:16,756 Speaker 1: of course stereotypes about the bling essex man making millions 275 00:21:16,796 --> 00:21:22,716 Speaker 1: from pawn, but also unease over only fans, normalizing pornography, 276 00:21:23,196 --> 00:21:28,556 Speaker 1: making it seem just like any other career a lot 277 00:21:28,596 --> 00:21:31,756 Speaker 1: of men and women saw the huge payout to top 278 00:21:31,796 --> 00:21:34,836 Speaker 1: porn stars and thought, I can give this a try. 279 00:21:35,676 --> 00:21:39,436 Speaker 1: But most couldn't build a big enough following, and some 280 00:21:39,916 --> 00:21:43,396 Speaker 1: probably realized porn wasn't something you can just dabble in 281 00:21:43,916 --> 00:21:49,316 Speaker 1: and regretted trying anyway. It's fair to say Only Fans 282 00:21:49,516 --> 00:21:54,956 Speaker 1: really caught a cultural moment and courted plenty of controversy. 283 00:21:55,236 --> 00:21:59,316 Speaker 1: We of course focused on the business side and the money. 284 00:21:59,916 --> 00:22:03,316 Speaker 1: What you need to understand is what makes Only Fans different. 285 00:22:03,956 --> 00:22:07,596 Speaker 1: It succeeded not just because it could take money, but 286 00:22:07,756 --> 00:22:11,196 Speaker 1: because it could pay it out. It built a financial 287 00:22:11,276 --> 00:22:15,116 Speaker 1: bridge from fans credit cards straight to the bank accounts 288 00:22:15,196 --> 00:22:19,436 Speaker 1: of creators. The bigger Only Fans became, the more its 289 00:22:19,476 --> 00:22:24,596 Speaker 1: reputation was associated with a pawn revival, and the more 290 00:22:24,676 --> 00:22:29,036 Speaker 1: nervous banks got moving its money around the world. So 291 00:22:29,156 --> 00:22:33,636 Speaker 1: nervous one bank even stopped providing a personal bank account 292 00:22:33,636 --> 00:22:38,356 Speaker 1: to Tim's brother, a former banker, just because he was 293 00:22:38,396 --> 00:22:41,596 Speaker 1: involved in running Only Fans. It's a very strange way 294 00:22:41,636 --> 00:22:46,036 Speaker 1: to act, but it was, you know. That's what happened. Then, 295 00:22:46,076 --> 00:22:49,316 Speaker 1: in the summer of twenty twenty one, the dam burst 296 00:22:50,596 --> 00:22:54,916 Speaker 1: Only Fans. The platform that changed the adult industry announced 297 00:22:54,916 --> 00:23:00,196 Speaker 1: it was going to ban pawn Performers were totally stunned. 298 00:23:00,676 --> 00:23:04,436 Speaker 1: Only fans will prohibit the posting of any content containing 299 00:23:04,516 --> 00:23:07,556 Speaker 1: sexually explicit kind act. That leaves a lot of people 300 00:23:07,556 --> 00:23:10,476 Speaker 1: worried about what's going to happen into the At least 301 00:23:10,556 --> 00:23:14,276 Speaker 1: tens of thousands of creators on the platform, who, particularly 302 00:23:14,316 --> 00:23:17,356 Speaker 1: during the pandemic, have made a lot of money from 303 00:23:17,356 --> 00:23:20,116 Speaker 1: the safety of their haunts. Hiss, think back to the 304 00:23:20,156 --> 00:23:24,316 Speaker 1: decision to ban explicit content, and yeah, what were you 305 00:23:24,756 --> 00:23:29,436 Speaker 1: trying to achieve when you first made that announcement. Well, 306 00:23:29,436 --> 00:23:36,556 Speaker 1: it certainly wasn't a strategic move really, Yeah, absolutely, Here, 307 00:23:37,156 --> 00:23:42,236 Speaker 1: we have to pay out hundreds of millions of dollars 308 00:23:42,236 --> 00:23:46,236 Speaker 1: to creators globally each month. You know, when you have 309 00:23:46,276 --> 00:23:49,196 Speaker 1: to move that amount of money, you depend upon large 310 00:23:49,196 --> 00:23:52,596 Speaker 1: investment banks, and we were seeing an increasing amount of 311 00:23:53,196 --> 00:23:57,316 Speaker 1: wires being flagged, with some investment banks citing things like 312 00:23:57,436 --> 00:24:03,676 Speaker 1: reputational risk. The precise trigger of their decision remains unclear. Here, 313 00:24:03,796 --> 00:24:07,596 Speaker 1: Tim is describing the choice as a practical matter. His 314 00:24:07,756 --> 00:24:12,836 Speaker 1: company's transfers were being flagged, marked down for extra checks 315 00:24:12,876 --> 00:24:16,316 Speaker 1: by banks moving their money around the world. A lot 316 00:24:16,356 --> 00:24:20,996 Speaker 1: of banks don't want to be associated with porn. The 317 00:24:21,196 --> 00:24:26,756 Speaker 1: abrupt announcement completely through the industry. The uproar from performers 318 00:24:26,876 --> 00:24:31,316 Speaker 1: was deafening. Big stars or less well known performers like 319 00:24:31,436 --> 00:24:35,476 Speaker 1: Peppermint and Dusty. They relied on only fans for their livelihoods, 320 00:24:35,956 --> 00:24:39,996 Speaker 1: and they were furious. And after a week of mayhem, 321 00:24:40,116 --> 00:24:46,236 Speaker 1: only Fans reversed its decision. Porn went from banned too 322 00:24:46,316 --> 00:24:50,916 Speaker 1: okay again all inside seven days. People who earn money 323 00:24:50,916 --> 00:24:54,196 Speaker 1: on the website only fans may have a bad case 324 00:24:54,236 --> 00:24:56,636 Speaker 1: of whiplash tonight, what a walk back. I guess The 325 00:24:56,716 --> 00:24:59,556 Speaker 1: question is has the damage already been done? Some users 326 00:24:59,556 --> 00:25:03,116 Speaker 1: really saw this as a move of only fans selling out. 327 00:25:03,436 --> 00:25:06,156 Speaker 1: Only Fans said its original decision to ban porn was 328 00:25:06,236 --> 00:25:09,516 Speaker 1: due to pressure from banking and payment services, but now 329 00:25:09,836 --> 00:25:13,276 Speaker 1: it has secured assurances necessary to keep things as is. 330 00:25:14,036 --> 00:25:18,956 Speaker 1: To everyone watching, the handling looked totally botched. It was 331 00:25:19,036 --> 00:25:23,156 Speaker 1: mocked on social media and compared to Domino's trying to 332 00:25:23,196 --> 00:25:27,356 Speaker 1: ban Peter. The lack of any convincing explanation at the 333 00:25:27,396 --> 00:25:33,196 Speaker 1: time also fed all sorts of conspiracy theories. Tim actually 334 00:25:33,236 --> 00:25:36,676 Speaker 1: insists the reversal was enabled by an interview he did 335 00:25:36,716 --> 00:25:39,476 Speaker 1: with me over the phone last year. It was for 336 00:25:39,516 --> 00:25:42,356 Speaker 1: a piece in the Financial Times that brands straight after 337 00:25:42,396 --> 00:25:45,476 Speaker 1: the ban, where he named some of the banks causing 338 00:25:45,476 --> 00:25:50,276 Speaker 1: only fans problems. After that article was published, he said 339 00:25:50,396 --> 00:25:55,396 Speaker 1: the mood changed, the banks gave him the assurances he needed. 340 00:25:56,316 --> 00:26:00,436 Speaker 1: Do you have regrets on how you handled it? Looking back? 341 00:26:03,116 --> 00:26:05,316 Speaker 1: Not on how it was handled. I don't think we 342 00:26:05,356 --> 00:26:09,436 Speaker 1: had much of a choice, but I deeply regret amount 343 00:26:09,476 --> 00:26:13,836 Speaker 1: of concern an anxiety it caused. I mean for a 344 00:26:13,836 --> 00:26:16,116 Speaker 1: lot of people it was it's like being cut down 345 00:26:16,116 --> 00:26:19,956 Speaker 1: at the knees and why should they trust any fans 346 00:26:20,036 --> 00:26:24,316 Speaker 1: not to do this again? And well, I you know, 347 00:26:24,356 --> 00:26:30,316 Speaker 1: I think what this, what this put a spotlight on, 348 00:26:30,556 --> 00:26:36,196 Speaker 1: was the discriminatory policies within the banking system, and that's 349 00:26:36,236 --> 00:26:39,676 Speaker 1: where the focus is. I think Tim here is talking 350 00:26:39,676 --> 00:26:43,636 Speaker 1: about banks making life difficult for companies just because they're 351 00:26:43,676 --> 00:26:48,716 Speaker 1: associated with adult content. The problem isn't necessarily allowing pawn 352 00:26:48,796 --> 00:26:53,036 Speaker 1: on a platform. Twitter, for instance, permits adult content on 353 00:26:53,236 --> 00:26:56,996 Speaker 1: parts of its platform and hosts lots of pawn without 354 00:26:57,076 --> 00:27:00,956 Speaker 1: much trouble. The issue start when a company has so 355 00:27:01,076 --> 00:27:05,036 Speaker 1: much pawn or makes so much money from pawn it 356 00:27:05,196 --> 00:27:10,156 Speaker 1: starts to look like a pawn company. After that, basic 357 00:27:10,276 --> 00:27:14,916 Speaker 1: finance dries up, banking becomes harder and a lot more expensive. 358 00:27:15,956 --> 00:27:18,596 Speaker 1: There are lots of people in the pawn industry who 359 00:27:18,636 --> 00:27:21,756 Speaker 1: find it hard to believe that only fans got cold 360 00:27:21,836 --> 00:27:25,916 Speaker 1: feet for a mundane reason like financing. They are still 361 00:27:25,996 --> 00:27:31,716 Speaker 1: convinced the whole pawn band fiasco was actually a publicity stunt, 362 00:27:32,316 --> 00:27:36,316 Speaker 1: some cunning plan that's that's entirely false. I think we've 363 00:27:36,356 --> 00:27:42,316 Speaker 1: perhaps been victim to some you know, unfair reporting, which 364 00:27:43,796 --> 00:27:46,156 Speaker 1: you know it has led to some criticism that is 365 00:27:46,876 --> 00:27:51,756 Speaker 1: based on moral outrage rather than evidence or facts or statistics. 366 00:27:51,876 --> 00:27:56,116 Speaker 1: Couldn't you have had that conversation with your financial partners before, 367 00:27:56,396 --> 00:27:59,076 Speaker 1: you know, if they were all happy? Couldn't you have 368 00:27:59,156 --> 00:28:02,516 Speaker 1: gone to your financial partners? I said, we could we 369 00:28:02,556 --> 00:28:04,956 Speaker 1: have handled it in a different way. Years of course 370 00:28:04,996 --> 00:28:11,796 Speaker 1: we could. Um, but um, We're happy where we ended. Huh. 371 00:28:13,836 --> 00:28:16,316 Speaker 1: At the end of our interviews, the Stoke Please took 372 00:28:16,356 --> 00:28:20,236 Speaker 1: us to their office. In there was another brother wearing 373 00:28:20,276 --> 00:28:23,236 Speaker 1: a wooly jumper that looked like an early Christmas present. 374 00:28:23,876 --> 00:28:27,756 Speaker 1: There were ducks wandering around a patio, crooked trinkets on 375 00:28:27,796 --> 00:28:32,156 Speaker 1: the desks. It seemed just a setting for a charming 376 00:28:32,236 --> 00:28:38,516 Speaker 1: family business. But for only fans. Something didn't quite seem right, 377 00:28:39,236 --> 00:28:50,196 Speaker 1: and it wasn't. We'll be right back Act three, reading 378 00:28:50,196 --> 00:28:54,316 Speaker 1: the fine print. Within three weeks of us visiting, the 379 00:28:54,436 --> 00:28:58,396 Speaker 1: Stoke Please had left only fans. Tim stepped down as 380 00:28:58,476 --> 00:29:01,996 Speaker 1: chief executive and guy and the rest of the family followed. 381 00:29:02,796 --> 00:29:07,996 Speaker 1: Just like that, the Stoke Please had gone. We'll admit it. 382 00:29:08,316 --> 00:29:11,796 Speaker 1: We were confused. We called them to ask what happened. 383 00:29:12,596 --> 00:29:16,556 Speaker 1: We didn't get much of an answer. Now, the story 384 00:29:16,596 --> 00:29:19,396 Speaker 1: of the Stoke These and only fans that you heard earlier, 385 00:29:19,916 --> 00:29:23,316 Speaker 1: that was all true, the family business, the way only 386 00:29:23,356 --> 00:29:27,556 Speaker 1: fans democratized porn. But we later learned that was only 387 00:29:27,676 --> 00:29:31,396 Speaker 1: one side of the story. Like looking at a movie 388 00:29:31,396 --> 00:29:35,956 Speaker 1: sets from a single camera. It didn't explain why the 389 00:29:35,996 --> 00:29:40,916 Speaker 1: Stokelees left only fans, or that crazy hokey cokey over 390 00:29:40,996 --> 00:29:45,396 Speaker 1: banning porn, or why they sold their company when it 391 00:29:45,476 --> 00:29:49,276 Speaker 1: was doing so well in twenty eighteen. To figure out 392 00:29:49,316 --> 00:29:53,076 Speaker 1: what was going on, we need to rewind and look 393 00:29:53,076 --> 00:29:56,556 Speaker 1: out of shot, and that starts with the current owner, 394 00:29:56,996 --> 00:29:59,716 Speaker 1: the guy who bought only Fans from the Stoke Lease 395 00:29:59,996 --> 00:30:04,356 Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen. Now, plenty of investors have attempted to 396 00:30:04,396 --> 00:30:09,476 Speaker 1: buy only Fans over the years, mainstream investors. But when 397 00:30:09,516 --> 00:30:12,356 Speaker 1: the Stoke Lease sold, it was to a man called 398 00:30:12,436 --> 00:30:17,596 Speaker 1: Leo Radvinski, a forty year old Ukrainian American who made 399 00:30:17,676 --> 00:30:21,916 Speaker 1: his fortune in the pawn industry. We'd love to have 400 00:30:21,996 --> 00:30:26,356 Speaker 1: spoken to him, but he declined he's not one for publicity. 401 00:30:27,156 --> 00:30:30,196 Speaker 1: Here's what Tim told us about Leo when we visited. 402 00:30:30,756 --> 00:30:35,076 Speaker 1: You know, he's been absolutely joy to work with and 403 00:30:35,396 --> 00:30:38,956 Speaker 1: such a smart guy, and there's a huge reason we 404 00:30:38,996 --> 00:30:43,916 Speaker 1: are where we are. Remember, in twenty eighteen, Only Fans 405 00:30:44,156 --> 00:30:48,876 Speaker 1: was a fast growing business, but it hadn't really caught fire. 406 00:30:49,676 --> 00:30:53,436 Speaker 1: The good times were ahead. So why did the Stoke 407 00:30:53,556 --> 00:30:58,756 Speaker 1: Lease give it all up to Leo Radvinski. Tim was 408 00:30:58,876 --> 00:31:02,556 Speaker 1: kg with his reasons for selling only Fans, but he 409 00:31:02,596 --> 00:31:05,196 Speaker 1: did give us a few clues. I mean, what I 410 00:31:05,196 --> 00:31:07,556 Speaker 1: can tell you is it's one of the best decisions 411 00:31:07,596 --> 00:31:11,596 Speaker 1: we made. It's very kind of hands on and adds 412 00:31:11,596 --> 00:31:14,916 Speaker 1: so much value to the technical part of the business. 413 00:31:15,476 --> 00:31:19,436 Speaker 1: And then he also works to an extent on the 414 00:31:19,476 --> 00:31:22,516 Speaker 1: payments side. We didn't think much of it at a 415 00:31:22,596 --> 00:31:26,956 Speaker 1: time Leo os tech. He made his career running a 416 00:31:27,196 --> 00:31:30,876 Speaker 1: live video porn side called my Free Camps. But when 417 00:31:30,876 --> 00:31:35,276 Speaker 1: we listened back, we realized the intriguing part was the 418 00:31:35,356 --> 00:31:39,836 Speaker 1: second half of that sentence. Tim said. Leo also worked 419 00:31:40,516 --> 00:31:45,676 Speaker 1: on the payment side, which raises one blindingly obvious question. 420 00:31:46,236 --> 00:31:50,396 Speaker 1: Why was Leo, the seasoned pornographer, helping a family of 421 00:31:50,516 --> 00:31:58,836 Speaker 1: bankers with payments? So you know, I've been looking for 422 00:31:58,876 --> 00:32:03,796 Speaker 1: an explanation of why the Stokely's sold Only Fans. I 423 00:32:03,956 --> 00:32:09,836 Speaker 1: think I found something, But I have a little confession 424 00:32:09,876 --> 00:32:13,156 Speaker 1: to make. Yeah, it was that. One of my new 425 00:32:13,196 --> 00:32:17,476 Speaker 1: habits is reading the terms and conditions on porn sites. 426 00:32:18,116 --> 00:32:21,516 Speaker 1: The legal fine print. Well, you've sent me one. Should 427 00:32:21,556 --> 00:32:24,516 Speaker 1: I read it out loud? Go ahead? So it says 428 00:32:24,676 --> 00:32:30,396 Speaker 1: you may not create, upload, post, display, or distribute user 429 00:32:30,516 --> 00:32:34,076 Speaker 1: content that is sexually explicit. It doesn't sound like a 430 00:32:34,116 --> 00:32:38,956 Speaker 1: porn site, right, No. Well those are the original terms 431 00:32:38,996 --> 00:32:43,636 Speaker 1: and conditions for only Fans from twenty sixteen, So no, 432 00:32:43,956 --> 00:32:47,796 Speaker 1: porn Only Fans didn't allow explicit content from the start, 433 00:32:47,956 --> 00:32:52,116 Speaker 1: nothing exactly, and it more or less stayed that way 434 00:32:52,196 --> 00:32:54,876 Speaker 1: for a year and a half. After Only Fans launched 435 00:32:55,356 --> 00:32:58,916 Speaker 1: even though there was lots of pawn on the site. 436 00:32:59,276 --> 00:33:03,156 Speaker 1: I mean, this really transformed how I understood the whole 437 00:33:03,476 --> 00:33:06,836 Speaker 1: Only Fans venture. It may well have been crucial to 438 00:33:06,876 --> 00:33:11,716 Speaker 1: the entire business model. Was claiming to be palm free, 439 00:33:12,476 --> 00:33:15,276 Speaker 1: and if you don't have palm, you don't have payment trouble. 440 00:33:15,556 --> 00:33:20,676 Speaker 1: The Stoke Please could benefit from easier, cheaper payment processing 441 00:33:21,116 --> 00:33:25,916 Speaker 1: they'd get like any mainstream platform. Well that's a big 442 00:33:25,956 --> 00:33:30,396 Speaker 1: advantage in the porn business. I mean, Only Fans stood 443 00:33:30,396 --> 00:33:33,516 Speaker 1: out when it launched because it only took a twenty 444 00:33:33,516 --> 00:33:37,756 Speaker 1: percent cut of a performer's earnings, when most campsites take 445 00:33:37,916 --> 00:33:41,996 Speaker 1: an average of fifty percent or more. So one of 446 00:33:42,036 --> 00:33:46,476 Speaker 1: the reasons they could offer that was cheaper payment processing. 447 00:33:46,836 --> 00:33:50,156 Speaker 1: And so the Stoke Please just sidestepped higher costs by 448 00:33:50,196 --> 00:33:55,716 Speaker 1: denying there was any porn on the site exactly. It's amazing. 449 00:33:56,236 --> 00:33:59,596 Speaker 1: So when did they admit that there was born on 450 00:33:59,596 --> 00:34:02,676 Speaker 1: the side. In the spring of twenty eighteen, and that's 451 00:34:02,716 --> 00:34:07,116 Speaker 1: when the Stoke Please introduced a new adult payment processor, 452 00:34:07,316 --> 00:34:12,156 Speaker 1: a different financial service men to handle all the explicit accounts, 453 00:34:12,596 --> 00:34:17,796 Speaker 1: presumably a much more expensive payment processor. And people in 454 00:34:17,836 --> 00:34:20,996 Speaker 1: the industry told me the only fans. Around this time 455 00:34:21,596 --> 00:34:27,356 Speaker 1: began to struggle with payments in particular, and within six months, Hey, 456 00:34:27,396 --> 00:34:32,356 Speaker 1: Presto the Stoke please had sold only fans. And remember 457 00:34:32,636 --> 00:34:35,916 Speaker 1: Leo is known in the pawn business as a master 458 00:34:35,996 --> 00:34:40,316 Speaker 1: of payments. You had to be to run at pawn camsite. 459 00:34:40,356 --> 00:34:43,516 Speaker 1: I mean, there's lots of micropayments. It's just in the 460 00:34:43,636 --> 00:34:47,716 Speaker 1: nature of the business. And suddenly you think of all that, 461 00:34:48,316 --> 00:34:52,156 Speaker 1: everything that Tim said about selling to Leo just made 462 00:34:52,196 --> 00:34:54,836 Speaker 1: a lot more sense when the payments side got more 463 00:34:54,836 --> 00:34:58,036 Speaker 1: difficult they had to turn to an expert. What I 464 00:34:58,076 --> 00:35:00,196 Speaker 1: can tell you is it's one of the best decisions 465 00:35:00,236 --> 00:35:03,676 Speaker 1: we made. It's not much value in speculating where we'd 466 00:35:03,716 --> 00:35:06,556 Speaker 1: be if we hadn't done it. We'd love to ask 467 00:35:06,716 --> 00:35:10,076 Speaker 1: Leo how he does it, how he his bangs and 468 00:35:10,116 --> 00:35:14,876 Speaker 1: payment processors on side, But like most of Pawn's biggest 469 00:35:14,916 --> 00:35:19,716 Speaker 1: money makers, he's not the time to give interviews. Neither 470 00:35:19,916 --> 00:35:23,876 Speaker 1: would his new management team, who are usually very media friendly. 471 00:35:24,436 --> 00:35:29,116 Speaker 1: The reason is partly Leo's vision for the company. He 472 00:35:29,196 --> 00:35:31,996 Speaker 1: came from the porn world, but he always saw the 473 00:35:32,076 --> 00:35:37,036 Speaker 1: mainstream potential of only fans. For him, that's only fans' 474 00:35:37,196 --> 00:35:41,836 Speaker 1: future fitness instructors and musicians, and that explains a lot. 475 00:35:42,356 --> 00:35:44,836 Speaker 1: When we talk to the Stokeleys about the decision to 476 00:35:44,916 --> 00:35:48,836 Speaker 1: ban Pawn last August, it never seemed like they really 477 00:35:49,196 --> 00:35:53,156 Speaker 1: believed in it. In reality, it was Leo's call to 478 00:35:53,276 --> 00:35:56,796 Speaker 1: him the mainstream promise of only fans was not worth 479 00:35:56,956 --> 00:36:01,596 Speaker 1: risking for Pawn, however much money it made. He has 480 00:36:01,676 --> 00:36:06,116 Speaker 1: visions of bringing in mainstream investors or even floating only 481 00:36:06,156 --> 00:36:13,956 Speaker 1: Fans on the stock market. Only Fans has promised not 482 00:36:13,996 --> 00:36:17,956 Speaker 1: to ditch porn performers again. People like Peppermint and her 483 00:36:18,036 --> 00:36:21,516 Speaker 1: husband Dusty, who we heard from earlier in this episode. 484 00:36:21,836 --> 00:36:24,156 Speaker 1: I mean, they say one thing and then a week 485 00:36:24,236 --> 00:36:26,436 Speaker 1: later they say another thing, and it makes one very 486 00:36:26,556 --> 00:36:30,116 Speaker 1: very hard to trust what's happening with the site itself. 487 00:36:30,276 --> 00:36:32,476 Speaker 1: When is this going to happen again? So it makes it, 488 00:36:32,516 --> 00:36:36,156 Speaker 1: you know, very precarious. Peppermint and Dusty stuck with only 489 00:36:36,196 --> 00:36:41,116 Speaker 1: Fans because it's an important stream of income and it 490 00:36:41,156 --> 00:36:45,396 Speaker 1: didn't seem right to be cutting off loyal subscribers. It's felt, 491 00:36:45,876 --> 00:36:48,116 Speaker 1: in some ways like going back to an abusive partner. 492 00:36:48,556 --> 00:36:51,036 Speaker 1: You know, you don't want to really stay there, but 493 00:36:51,276 --> 00:36:53,156 Speaker 1: you're kind of stuck. You don't have a lot of choice. 494 00:36:53,436 --> 00:36:56,196 Speaker 1: I'm hoping that it means only good things. You know, 495 00:36:56,276 --> 00:37:00,236 Speaker 1: maybe Tim Stokely was tired of having to deal with 496 00:37:00,276 --> 00:37:03,636 Speaker 1: the credit card companies and all the legislation and the rules, 497 00:37:03,956 --> 00:37:07,596 Speaker 1: So handing the reins over to somebody else could possibly 498 00:37:07,636 --> 00:37:11,476 Speaker 1: be a good thing. That's my hope. Indeed, there is 499 00:37:11,476 --> 00:37:14,876 Speaker 1: a weird parallel between all the people we've spoken to 500 00:37:15,156 --> 00:37:18,836 Speaker 1: and told you about in this episode, Peppermint and Dusty, 501 00:37:19,196 --> 00:37:23,756 Speaker 1: the Stokely family, and Leo Radvinski, the pornographer trying to 502 00:37:23,796 --> 00:37:27,356 Speaker 1: go mainstream. You could even make a link to Danny, 503 00:37:27,756 --> 00:37:31,396 Speaker 1: the goddess of financial domination, who had no way to 504 00:37:31,476 --> 00:37:35,596 Speaker 1: be tipped by her pay pets. What all their stories 505 00:37:35,676 --> 00:37:38,596 Speaker 1: taught us was this, if you're not the master of 506 00:37:38,636 --> 00:37:43,756 Speaker 1: your business's payment system, very simply means somebody else is 507 00:37:43,756 --> 00:37:48,956 Speaker 1: in charge. Only fans empowered performers by giving them away 508 00:37:48,996 --> 00:37:54,236 Speaker 1: to receive direct payments from fans. But because only fans 509 00:37:54,516 --> 00:37:58,396 Speaker 1: doesn't control its own payment system, it is caught in 510 00:37:58,436 --> 00:38:02,436 Speaker 1: a bind. It is reliant on pornshy payment companies on 511 00:38:02,436 --> 00:38:06,156 Speaker 1: one side to take in money, and on pornshy bangs 512 00:38:06,156 --> 00:38:09,516 Speaker 1: on the other to pay it out. That's where to 513 00:38:09,556 --> 00:38:13,196 Speaker 1: real power lies. A finance world that seems to have 514 00:38:13,356 --> 00:38:17,516 Speaker 1: a muddled and bizarre relationship with the porn industry and 515 00:38:17,636 --> 00:38:21,036 Speaker 1: the money it brings. What does this all mean for 516 00:38:21,196 --> 00:38:26,716 Speaker 1: porn today? That's our next episode, the season finale. Instead 517 00:38:26,756 --> 00:38:31,116 Speaker 1: of the government defining what is and is not considered 518 00:38:31,156 --> 00:38:54,196 Speaker 1: sexually acceptable, it's a corporation. Hot Money is a production 519 00:38:54,276 --> 00:38:57,276 Speaker 1: of The Financial Times and Pushkin Industries. It was written 520 00:38:57,316 --> 00:39:00,916 Speaker 1: or reported by me Patrician Elson and me Alex Barker. 521 00:39:01,756 --> 00:39:05,516 Speaker 1: Peter Sale is our lead producer and sound designer. Edith 522 00:39:05,596 --> 00:39:10,156 Speaker 1: Russolo is our associate producer. Our editor is Karen Shakurji. 523 00:39:10,396 --> 00:39:15,796 Speaker 1: Amanda Kwong is our engineer. Music composition by Pascal Wise, 524 00:39:16,196 --> 00:39:21,436 Speaker 1: fact checking by Andrea Lopez Kusado. Our executive producers are 525 00:39:21,516 --> 00:39:25,636 Speaker 1: Cheryl Brumley and Jacob Goldstein. Special thanks to Renee Kaplan 526 00:39:25,716 --> 00:39:28,836 Speaker 1: and Ruler Kalov at The Financial Times and Mia Lobel, 527 00:39:29,236 --> 00:39:34,596 Speaker 1: Lital Molad, Justine Lang, Julia Barton and Jacob Weisberg at 528 00:39:34,596 --> 00:39:38,316 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. Thank you to a similar Web for providing 529 00:39:38,316 --> 00:39:42,276 Speaker 1: our web traffic data. If you want more from the ft, 530 00:39:42,876 --> 00:39:47,116 Speaker 1: try our new app featuring eight essential stories every weekday 531 00:39:47,516 --> 00:39:51,396 Speaker 1: search ft Edit in the iPhone app Store. Your first 532 00:39:51,396 --> 00:39:54,276 Speaker 1: month is free, and it's ninety nine cents a month 533 00:39:54,516 --> 00:39:56,116 Speaker 1: for six months after that.