Speaker 1: Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties podcasts featuring conversations with industry
Speaker 1: leaders about the business of entertainment. I'm Cynthia Littleton, Managing
Speaker 1: editor of Television for Variety and Today, my guest in
Speaker 1: Beverly Hills is David Nevins, President and CEO of Showtime Networks.
Speaker 1: David is steering Showtime through a period of massive disruption
Speaker 1: for the premium TV business. In our wide ranging conversation,
Speaker 1: he talks about the new economics of direct to consumer
Speaker 1: streaming and how it's changed the way Showtime operates. He
Speaker 1: talks about the expansion of Showtime's programming mandate and what
Speaker 1: it takes to compete for projects in the peak TV crush.
Speaker 1: He also offers insights into the origins of Sasha Baron
Speaker 1: Cohen's Who Is America and his thoughts on the coming
Speaker 1: final season of Homework. David Evans, thanks so much for
Speaker 1: making time for us. So glad to be here in
Speaker 1: this glamorous hotel room. It's the life, you know, the
Speaker 1: life of the CEO, the life of a media reporter,
Speaker 1: one hotel room after another, get it done wherever it
Speaker 1: has to get done. It's good, um, you know, for
Speaker 1: the last couple of years, all anybody in TV can
Speaker 1: talk about is how much TV there is. You've been
Speaker 1: at the helm of Showtime now certainly programming wise, now
Speaker 1: for going on eight years, going on nine years. How
Speaker 1: that long? Right? I guess that's right. I was. I
Speaker 1: was going to say seven going on eight, But I
Speaker 1: think you're right, and you have your details, correct. I
Speaker 1: I forget that my own history. Just I'll remind you
Speaker 1: when your kid's birthdays are coming. Okay, fair enough? Today
Speaker 1: is my son's birthday? Actually, happy birthday? There we go, Um,
Speaker 1: what how has we know? You know, everybody's talking about
Speaker 1: the arms race and programming and costs, But how has
Speaker 1: What are some of the ways that the job of
Speaker 1: programming a premium cable network has changed in ways that
Speaker 1: wouldn't be intuitive to us, in terms of just the
Speaker 1: enormity of competition? Are there things that you have to
Speaker 1: do differently now because there is so much competition? I see,
Speaker 1: it is all opportunity. I feel like the range of
Speaker 1: the kinds of things that I can do has gotten
Speaker 1: much more interesting. When I came to Showtime, we made
Speaker 1: mostly uh half hour little half hour drama comedies, Californication,
Speaker 1: and Nurse Jackie and Weeds. We had I think one
Speaker 1: or two hour shows, Dexter being the most prominent of them.
Speaker 1: And now I feel like I'm doing an animated show,
Speaker 1: and I'm doing documentaries and news shows, and I'm doing
Speaker 1: you know, really fresh, up to the minute things in
Speaker 1: UH in the circus and really spontaneous, crazy shows like
Speaker 1: who is America where? Um. You know, it was a
Speaker 1: year and a half in the making, but the editing
Speaker 1: and the tinkering is going on the last second. So
Speaker 1: I do feel like the range of the kinds of
Speaker 1: things I get to make has dramatically expanded. Um. But
Speaker 1: I think you're asking a question about, you know, filling
Speaker 1: a programming mandate in the age of UH, in the
Speaker 1: age of streaming, in the age of a lot of
Speaker 1: people trying to make premium television. UM, I think you
Speaker 1: gotta go the extra mile to try to find originality. UM.
Speaker 1: With so much stuff happening, it's UH. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of people repeating themselves and a lot of people doing
Speaker 1: UH playing in a similar or sandbox. So you've gotta
Speaker 1: you gotta go further and harder for originality. And you know,
Speaker 1: the good news is that the range of people who
Speaker 1: want to do television h is greater than ever before.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sitting there, I'm on a daily basis. Now.
Speaker 1: It's people who have been the dominant players in the
Speaker 1: movie business from uh Jim Carey to Russell Crowe too,
Speaker 1: uh Jason blom or Scott Ruden to um Seth Rogan
Speaker 1: or Ben Stiller. Um. Uh. It's it's a group of
Speaker 1: people who probably wouldn't have been accessible uh for Showtime
Speaker 1: six years ago. Um. And they're all interested in doing
Speaker 1: great creative work for us. UM. But you gotta dig
Speaker 1: a little harder, you and be a little bit more adventurous,
Speaker 1: um than than the old days. But that's that's that's
Speaker 1: the good news. Would you say from the time that
Speaker 1: you certainly from the time that you started at Showtime
Speaker 1: to now, would you say, you know, adjusting for inflation,
Speaker 1: that the CBS Corporation is spending appreciably more on content. Definitely, absolutely,
Speaker 1: where we are spending more. We're spending more on a
Speaker 1: per episode basis. The level of production value that's expected
Speaker 1: from us has gone up. And we're also spending more
Speaker 1: because we're putting out more hours of original content than
Speaker 1: than we did before, but our revenue has gone up
Speaker 1: pretty dramatically in order to justify it. It's hard. It's
Speaker 1: hard to spend more on programming if your revenue isn't
Speaker 1: moving in the right direction. But our revenue is moving
Speaker 1: in the right direction. Uh, so it pays for itself.
Speaker 1: But no question about it. And uh we're we're always
Speaker 1: pushing for more and trying to you know, we've gotta
Speaker 1: keep pushing for more. We gotta get rewarded for it
Speaker 1: with new subscribers. And in a streaming universe, Um, every
Speaker 1: time you put something new that people are interested in,
Speaker 1: it drives sign ups. You can also put new things
Speaker 1: on that don't drive sign ups, um, you know, in
Speaker 1: which case you're not investing your money as well as
Speaker 1: you can. But as long as you're putting things out
Speaker 1: there that has a defined audience that somebody is willing
Speaker 1: to pay money for, you can justify it. It's I'd
Speaker 1: be interested to see the link between you announcing that
Speaker 1: something is coming and sign ups. So people people read
Speaker 1: in the press that you're doing a Rodger Ales mini
Speaker 1: series with Russell Crowe and maybe Nicole Kidman, and that
Speaker 1: that gets people's interests. Like you, you can track. I
Speaker 1: don't believe that. I think in the in the age
Speaker 1: of the Internet, Um, it has to be instantaneous. So
Speaker 1: I don't think that a press announce A press announcement
Speaker 1: may create a glow, may create some brand awareness, some
Speaker 1: brand halo. I don't think a press announcement drive sign ups,
Speaker 1: and I don't think there's much evidence that it does.
Speaker 1: We did the t c A yesterday. We were trending
Speaker 1: on Twitter, Showtime is trending, shut up, and Dribble was trending. Uh,
Speaker 1: Homeland was trending, David Nevians was trending. I don't think
Speaker 1: that drove sign ups. Uh, it's not going to drive
Speaker 1: the sign ups that Sunday's episode of Who Is America
Speaker 1: or Sunday's episode of The Affair will drive. And you
Speaker 1: know I see it every day. So there's a build
Speaker 1: up of of of sign ups over the course of
Speaker 1: the week. It peaks on Sunday, goes down a little
Speaker 1: bit on Monday, and then keeps going down through the week,
Speaker 1: and then starts building up again as we head towards
Speaker 1: the weekend day Saturday Sunday peaking again. Um, and uh,
Speaker 1: you've got to be instantaneous. So when it has to
Speaker 1: be available. Um, I think in order to move an audience,
Speaker 1: and for you as a programmer, that must be a
Speaker 1: joy that now you can it is so easy to
Speaker 1: sign up. I mean, you know in years past, it
Speaker 1: was you had to call the cable company and stay
Speaker 1: on for two hours and wait for two weeks. And
Speaker 1: now people can literally push a button. Yeah. Well, the
Speaker 1: thing that I always used to say because my background,
Speaker 1: I was a network executive, broadcast network executive early in
Speaker 1: my career, and then I was a producer. And when
Speaker 1: I first came to showtime, it was the only form
Speaker 1: of television, premium television, subscription television is the only form
Speaker 1: where there was no direct correlation between programming and revenue. Uh.
Speaker 1: If you sit at CBS or TNT r FX, you
Speaker 1: can say, I'm gonna put the show on the air.
Speaker 1: It's going to get one point six in demo and
Speaker 1: that's going to be worth x amount of revenue. Uh.
Speaker 1: With us, it was always so uh indirect. In fact,
Speaker 1: you can always make the argument that less programming costs
Speaker 1: less money and you're not gonna show any obvious loss
Speaker 1: of subscribers. Um, it's gotten much more direct than that.
Speaker 1: So now you can actually attribute revenue two shows and
Speaker 1: it's UM, so you can immediately see the effect of
Speaker 1: a show and a show that is growing. So show
Speaker 1: like Who Is America which as growing, grew in ratings
Speaker 1: weeks one to three and four, and uh most importantly
Speaker 1: grows in UM we two had you know, Week one
Speaker 1: was a very good sign up week Week two was
Speaker 1: bigger than week one. That that never happened. So that's
Speaker 1: clearly evidence of a show that is getting a ton
Speaker 1: of word of mouth and getting in causing people to buy.
Speaker 1: All of those people complaining that they were duped into
Speaker 1: being Who Was American? The Sasha Brown Cohen Show, all
Speaker 1: those people complaining that they were duped, that was like marketing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I had a lot of powerful, important people
Speaker 1: carrying the water for us, So that's always a good thing.
Speaker 1: Let me just ask you how there was some commentary
Speaker 1: about that show that Baron sas Sasha Brown Cohen's excuse me,
Speaker 1: Sasha Baron Cohen's UM approach didn't play as well in
Speaker 1: two thousand eighteen as it did a decade ago when
Speaker 1: he was when he was on the Ali g Show.
Speaker 1: Did you feel that when you watched it? Do you
Speaker 1: do you accept that criticism. It felt a little out
Speaker 1: of step with with our times right now. I don't.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think people there's it's a rough and
Speaker 1: tumble world, and there's certain people when you know, there's
Speaker 1: a certain sensitivity. But uh, he is a provocateur and
Speaker 1: a brilliant artist, and I think it's really important to
Speaker 1: create space for provocateurs to pro to provoke and and uh,
Speaker 1: satirists to satire. And um, I I think he is
Speaker 1: a fair editor. Uh what what he puts on the air,
Speaker 1: he doesn't you know, he's an improv comedian, he he uh. Um.
Speaker 1: The whole essence of improv is go where people will
Speaker 1: lead you, and he lets people lead him down some
Speaker 1: pretty crazy paths. And I think he's a truth teller
Speaker 1: and uh so Uh, I think it's important in our
Speaker 1: culture to allow comedians the space to provoke, do satire.
Speaker 1: And I don't think there's anybody better than Sasha in
Speaker 1: a pretating our times. Um yeah, I mean, I I don't.
Speaker 1: I think he's he's he is a truth teller, and
Speaker 1: I think he's fair and fair and how he puts
Speaker 1: his episodes together. No one's ever accused him of editing
Speaker 1: unfairly taking things out of Contextum, so he follows where
Speaker 1: people where people lead. Um. You mentioned that that that
Speaker 1: Who Was America was an eighteen month development process. That's
Speaker 1: that's interesting. One thing I'm hearing from people is because
Speaker 1: there is such a chase right now for creative talent
Speaker 1: and programming, that development can be very accelerated, sometimes to
Speaker 1: the detriment of the final product. But that sounds like
Speaker 1: a very That sounds like the opposite. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: if you're going to be led by your creators, and
Speaker 1: we try very hard to be led by by our
Speaker 1: creators and give them the space and room and time
Speaker 1: that they need. Um, sometimes you can go asked and
Speaker 1: sometimes I like to go fast and send times. It
Speaker 1: takes longer. And you know, Uh, this was a show
Speaker 1: that had to be invented. The characters had to be invented,
Speaker 1: the the concepts had to be invented. The look and
Speaker 1: the feel and the prosthetics had to be invented. So
Speaker 1: it took it took some time, and then it took
Speaker 1: takes Uh. Um, you gotta you gotta do a lot
Speaker 1: of different pieces to come over to come up with
Speaker 1: uh stuff that is good enough to meet Sasha's barrier
Speaker 1: for you know, his his bar for what works on television. Um,
Speaker 1: so did he did he pitch this to you in
Speaker 1: a nascent form or did he bring you some material
Speaker 1: already shot that wetted your appetite? It was a nascent form,
Speaker 1: nothing was shot. You know. We began to talk about
Speaker 1: the possibility of you know, doing the undercover show that
Speaker 1: he hadn't done for a very long time, and I
Speaker 1: chased him really hard. So he was kind of he
Speaker 1: was he was shocked by representatives or it was a
Speaker 1: connection that you made torely with him. Representatives were involved.
Speaker 1: Speaking of representatives, that's another interesting area of the business
Speaker 1: right now. We are seeing you know, both CIA to
Speaker 1: a greater degree endeavor the parent company of w M
Speaker 1: E Are. They are both and now U t A
Speaker 1: is even starting to get into the into the business
Speaker 1: of production tiptoeing still but but it never in particular
Speaker 1: is really building a roster. Does that concern you to
Speaker 1: see another Yes, they could be another supplier, but they're there.
Speaker 1: They're coming in with an agenda to help talent own
Speaker 1: their control, their destiny. At a time when you want
Speaker 1: to take showtime around the world, it's a lot easier
Speaker 1: for you. I have a number of different feelings, like
Speaker 1: I'm I'm supportive of anybody who wants to put more
Speaker 1: capital into the production of of great television. And uh,
Speaker 1: I think there are certain inherent conflicts of interest that
Speaker 1: are that are dicey. It's not my issue, it's the
Speaker 1: issue of the talent. So I think there's it's a
Speaker 1: little dicey territory. But UM, I'm I have I have
Speaker 1: a real open door policy, and I believe you know. UM,
Speaker 1: somebody brings me a show that I feel like it's
Speaker 1: going to be great for showtime, Uh, I want to
Speaker 1: I want to facilitate that show getting on the air.
Speaker 1: I have business priorities. It's really important to us to
Speaker 1: own the distribution of our of our shows, and I
Speaker 1: don't make any any bones about that. But um, because
Speaker 1: of the way the success that we've been having, the
Speaker 1: desirability of our programming, h nine times out of ten,
Speaker 1: we can offer better distribution terms than anybody else. UM,
Speaker 1: and we've had such dramatic increase in UM and the
Speaker 1: desirability of our programming and ability to be packaged together
Speaker 1: that more often than not, people want even big studios
Speaker 1: want to take advantag of our our distribution deals. So
Speaker 1: we're kind of working it out and in good ways
Speaker 1: that I'm happy. UM. I think, uh, you know, if
Speaker 1: you're in the talent representation business, UM, you got to
Speaker 1: be clear about who you're working for. UM. But I'm
Speaker 1: able to see the grays in it and the opportunities
Speaker 1: and the opportunities for for showtime to be supplied by
Speaker 1: UM some of the you know, agency back companies as
Speaker 1: long as you're willing to put capital in and and uh,
Speaker 1: we can work with them. And there's obviously you know,
Speaker 1: they're going to get behind people with very big visions
Speaker 1: and people that are going to come to the table
Speaker 1: with you know, with likely with very provocative and very
Speaker 1: kind of sizzling ideas. That's interesting. UM. So we do
Speaker 1: business with all commerce. You know, I don't think in
Speaker 1: this in this age, you can afford to uh close
Speaker 1: off any avenues. Are you concerned at all that avenues
Speaker 1: might be closing off to you? Though? We're seeing you know,
Speaker 1: Disney and Fox are soon to be one and they
Speaker 1: are talking very seriously about, you know, launching a truly
Speaker 1: vertical integrated streaming platform that would that would be the
Speaker 1: exclusive place of all Disney content. And you know you
Speaker 1: don't do a ton of business with Disney. But one
Speaker 1: of your one of your breakout shows this past year, Smilth,
Speaker 1: came from ABC Studios. Does it concern you that there
Speaker 1: might be some constriction, Well, I mean I think they're
Speaker 1: clearly launching a streaming service that will be somewhat competitive
Speaker 1: to us, So it means another another competitive competitor on
Speaker 1: the block. Um, but that's not new. There's new entrance
Speaker 1: entrance every day. And our brand is strong. Our relationship
Speaker 1: with our customers wrong, our relationship with our distributors or
Speaker 1: various distributors, whether it's Amazon or Comcast or UH direct
Speaker 1: TV an A T and T which now owns my competitor,
Speaker 1: So that the the environment has gotten more complicated Disney.
Speaker 1: As I finished that sentence, Uh, Disney and A T
Speaker 1: and T now own HBO. My are big competitor. UM
Speaker 1: A T and T and Direct TV pay us a
Speaker 1: lot of money every year, but they want to keep
Speaker 1: selling us. So uh, it just it just makes for
Speaker 1: strange bedfellows. And ultimately, uh, talent wants to go where
Speaker 1: talent wants to go, and they tend to have uh
Speaker 1: a fair amount of saying it. And if I create
Speaker 1: a a successful platform that launches successful shows and create
Speaker 1: a great creative environment, talent will keep wanting to come
Speaker 1: the showtime. And I would bet that even in the
Speaker 1: era of Disney creating whatever new streaming service are going
Speaker 1: to create, there's still gonna be talent that studio that
Speaker 1: wants to come this showtime that will have to be
Speaker 1: allowed to come to showtime under acceptable deal terms in
Speaker 1: order for them to be in business with the talent
Speaker 1: that they want to be in business with. So I
Speaker 1: think there's uh a pretty healthy ecosystem that is self policing.
Speaker 1: That's how we look at it. Um. We we've seen
Speaker 1: this before. We've seen the pendulum swing too. We want
Speaker 1: to own everything too, well, maybe we want to play
Speaker 1: the field. So it's an amazing moment. I want to
Speaker 1: own everything. It's it's the economics are better and it's
Speaker 1: better for us to own everything. But uh, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: not want shameless And um there's there's shows with major
Speaker 1: studios where I can we we we really do all
Speaker 1: the distribution, but we share the ownership and we share
Speaker 1: the upside that those deals are fine. Um, But you know,
Speaker 1: we have a you know, there's just it's it's it's
Speaker 1: gotten complicated. But our ability to be somewhat agnostic, to
Speaker 1: be UM agnostic to the UM whoever supplying it to us,
Speaker 1: to be not tied with a major distribution company we're
Speaker 1: not tied. You know, we're not tied to Comcast, we're
Speaker 1: not tied to direct TV gives us. There's things that
Speaker 1: we can do that it is harder for some of
Speaker 1: our competitors to do because we are actually an independent
Speaker 1: UM company, you know, work Our company is CBS and Showtime,
Speaker 1: which is small in the world that we live in.
Speaker 1: But it also gives us flexibility deal flexibility that some
Speaker 1: of my competitors don't have. We're not like Netflix, where
Speaker 1: you know you're we'll pay you a little bit of premium.
Speaker 1: You have no upside your uh, your international distribution can
Speaker 1: take a nap. Your domestic syndication people they can I
Speaker 1: can nap UM. Uh. We're still attractive place for independence
Speaker 1: or the semi independence to do business UM because UM.
Speaker 1: Because we can we can generate hits that have ancillary value. Certainly,
Speaker 1: certainly you've you've proven that UM do you in the
Speaker 1: world where everything so much is on demand, and there's
Speaker 1: so much viewing tends to be done in a binge format.
Speaker 1: Do you still think about programming flow? Do you still
Speaker 1: program due to a certain extent? I mean, I mean
Speaker 1: I'm using Shameless to launch Kidding to help Kidding get
Speaker 1: off the ground, the new Gym Carey show Kidding from
Speaker 1: Jim Carrey and Michelle Gandry, and that's that's coming up
Speaker 1: in September, and uh, Kidding is going to have a
Speaker 1: better shot for having Shameless in front of it. It's
Speaker 1: far from the be all on the end at all.
Speaker 1: I could easily launch Kidding without Shameless, but I think
Speaker 1: there's a compatibility between those two shows. Uh Shameless was
Speaker 1: helpful and launching um smelf and so it's to use
Speaker 1: a double negative. It doesn't not matter, but it's way
Speaker 1: less important than it used to be. And more important
Speaker 1: is the continual introduction of new shows on a regular basis,
Speaker 1: so there's new things to cause sign up behavior, So
Speaker 1: people who are subscribing to es feel like they're always
Speaker 1: getting something new and interesting. Right. Because the flip side
Speaker 1: of making it much easier to sign up, it's much
Speaker 1: easier to easy on, easy off, and so you better
Speaker 1: continue to deliver and are the fact that we have
Speaker 1: four of the six top scripted shows UH, and they
Speaker 1: don't all air at the same time year they lay
Speaker 1: out of the air. We're talking about Shameless and Billions
Speaker 1: and the shy um and UH and Homeland UM, which
Speaker 1: is not to mention Ray Donovan or who is America
Speaker 1: or Kidding or smelf um. These we have more shows
Speaker 1: that matter than the other premium competitors and UH, the
Speaker 1: ability to lay them out across the year UH means
Speaker 1: we have less of a churn issue than some of
Speaker 1: our competitors. UM. On the in the area of of
Speaker 1: like the documentary programming, the sports that you're going into,
Speaker 1: your having a topical late night show coming up with
Speaker 1: de Susan Marrow, Um, would you Those aren't the kind
Speaker 1: of shows that have, you know, a big back end
Speaker 1: for somebody down the road, But those are more important
Speaker 1: to you in terms of expanding the breadth of what
Speaker 1: you offer to make it to make showtime really sticky. UM,
Speaker 1: we're able to get a lot of I mean I
Speaker 1: look at different things differently, so news and documentary shows
Speaker 1: like the Circus or UH, the Fourth of State, about
Speaker 1: the new York Times or by the way, um, which
Speaker 1: is Emmy nominated, and it is an incredible show. And
Speaker 1: you know, it really sort of looked at the first
Speaker 1: year of the Trump administration from the point of view
Speaker 1: of the New York Times. And it gets watched. It's
Speaker 1: getting watched. It got watched a lot last night, Um,
Speaker 1: because people are catching up to it. It has a
Speaker 1: long lifespan, and it's an incredible Uh, it's an incredible
Speaker 1: document and so um ah, those things I think enriched
Speaker 1: the experience and they create a lot of news off
Speaker 1: the entertainment pages. Uh. You know, um, shut Up and Dribble,
Speaker 1: which we announced yesterday. Um, you know, on the heels
Speaker 1: of this trip Twitter attack from the White House towards
Speaker 1: Lebron James over the weekend. Here's something we've been working
Speaker 1: on for a year, smartly titled shut Up and Dribble,
Speaker 1: based on the Laura Ingraham you know Laura A. Graham's
Speaker 1: um warning at professional athletes. We just want to we
Speaker 1: want to see a play ball. We don't want to
Speaker 1: hear what you have to think. Um. Just you're when
Speaker 1: you're able to have things that feel like they're in
Speaker 1: the zeitgeist, they have enormous impact on your brand. So, uh,
Speaker 1: that's the value of documentary filmmaking. UM the Trade also
Speaker 1: Emmy nominated this year Matthew Heineman. And when last year's
Speaker 1: Oscar sort of digging really deep into the drug epidemic
Speaker 1: in America, really powerful piece of filmmaking gets got watched
Speaker 1: a lot. I mean he's really showing, uh, the opioid
Speaker 1: drug the drug crisis from point of view of people
Speaker 1: living in Ohio and people out of the Mexican border
Speaker 1: growing and shipping, and you're really inside on both sides.
Speaker 1: UM boxing UM is a resurgent American sport that is
Speaker 1: starting to take UM, starting to take market share back
Speaker 1: from m m A. It's young, obviously male, but it
Speaker 1: is it has young good demographics. People perceive boxing to
Speaker 1: be an older person sport, but you know, great young
Speaker 1: African American, Latino uh demos and uh with that goes
Speaker 1: a lot of young white kids to watching boxing, and
Speaker 1: uh it is UM it's become a real part of
Speaker 1: who we are. And UM we have certain people exiting,
Speaker 1: you know, some of our competition slowly exiting the business
Speaker 1: and we become the dominant home and there's there's great
Speaker 1: value and you know, I don't think we're gonna be
Speaker 1: competing for uh NBA or NFL rights anytime soon, but
Speaker 1: to be able to be the most important home for
Speaker 1: a major sport has has real ongoing value and uh um.
Speaker 1: You know, some of our biggest single night sign ups
Speaker 1: are boxing events, so uh, you know, we're we're we're
Speaker 1: bullish about that and so you know, we're offering we're
Speaker 1: trying to be number one or number two and and
Speaker 1: everything that we're doing UM, but we're slowly expanding the
Speaker 1: range of what we're doing. Jesus and Marrow, I think
Speaker 1: UH for people under thirty five is a home run
Speaker 1: and I think they have unlimited potential to get uh
Speaker 1: um to really to really get big. Those guys are
Speaker 1: next league talent. They're not UM. And I think the
Speaker 1: really original you know so much of Late Night Calm
Speaker 1: and he kind of comes out of UM either that
Speaker 1: night Show or the Daily Show and Jesus America come
Speaker 1: from a different place, and I think they will the
Speaker 1: Bronx Okays called the Bronx um and uh and they
Speaker 1: just have their own voice, and I think they're gonna
Speaker 1: be uh They're gonna be a long time force and
Speaker 1: it is interesting that all these things that we're talking
Speaker 1: about you never heard, you never rarely heard Showtime or
Speaker 1: HBO in the context of something that was happening in
Speaker 1: the headlines. And I think now we're in the headlines
Speaker 1: a lot, you know, UH, UM, Sasha Baron Cohen makes headlines. UM,
Speaker 1: shut Up and Dribble Yesterday makes headlines. Of course, it's
Speaker 1: a headline when a long running, UH, celebrated show like Homeland,
Speaker 1: UM announces it's going into its final season. UM. But
Speaker 1: the ability for Sasha Baron Cohen to make front page
Speaker 1: of the New York Times UM before it's even launched,
Speaker 1: because major politicians are UM, you know, coming out talking
Speaker 1: about their experience with the show. UM. It's UM. It's
Speaker 1: good to make noise and it's good to make ways.
Speaker 1: And I think that we've had a pretty consistent ability
Speaker 1: to anticipate the zeitgeist and sort of be in the
Speaker 1: right place at the right time. I mean, certainly Shut
Speaker 1: Up and Dribble as a case of being in the
Speaker 1: right place at the right time. So you have the
Speaker 1: show about uh, the changing politics of being an African
Speaker 1: American athlete, UH, centered on Lebron James and you're ready
Speaker 1: to announce it on the Monday after Um, that was
Speaker 1: the dominant Twitter story of the weekend, Trump versus Lebron No,
Speaker 1: you couldn't buy that. So there's a certain amount of
Speaker 1: luck involved in that. But it's also because we're uh,
Speaker 1: we're fishing in the right waters. And you know, Vinny Malholtra,
Speaker 1: who's buying you know, and making making the decisions on
Speaker 1: our documentaries and making those decisions, is fishing in the
Speaker 1: right waters and he's not, um, you know, he's you know,
Speaker 1: we're doing stuff about the New York Times, about uh,
Speaker 1: the FBI versus the presidency because we kind of saw
Speaker 1: about a year ago that this was going to be
Speaker 1: an important story and got Alex Gibney to do it.
Speaker 1: And it's a historical documentary. But that's a fraught relationship
Speaker 1: over time, um uh you know, And you have to
Speaker 1: have people inside the organization who are who have their
Speaker 1: finger on the pulse, um and care about that and
Speaker 1: make that a brand priority in order to have those
Speaker 1: lucky moments. I have to ask you, of course about Homeland.
Speaker 1: That's got to be very for you personally. That was
Speaker 1: literally the first show you greenlit when you came to showtime.
Speaker 1: And you know, I don't have to tell you how
Speaker 1: rare it is that something like that in eight years,
Speaker 1: eight seasons now, going on nine seasons later, it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's going to have a very triumphant exit, no doubt. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think you know, um, I you know, Homeland has
Speaker 1: been a very special show. I think it's done an amazing,
Speaker 1: amazing job of reinventing itself over time. I mean it
Speaker 1: really began as the carry in Brodie story, UM, and
Speaker 1: there was a huge question would it what would it
Speaker 1: be after Brodie? UM? And I always knew and Alex
Speaker 1: gonz always knew that there was a core, There was
Speaker 1: a great character in Carrie Matheson, and there was a
Speaker 1: core franchise and what is the place of America in
Speaker 1: the world in the twenty one century? This complicated place,
Speaker 1: and that was always the subject of the show through
Speaker 1: the spy franchise. And he I think he did an
Speaker 1: incredible job of reinventing it post that initial kind of
Speaker 1: push pull kind of romance um story, and then he
Speaker 1: reinvented it year after year and through very careful research,
Speaker 1: you know, being a great storyteller and and really good
Speaker 1: lines of Uh, information that's coming to him from the
Speaker 1: State Department, CIA and all the people he talked to
Speaker 1: in Washington. He's got good sources. Has made is reinvented
Speaker 1: a show really well year after year. And Uh. When
Speaker 1: they first started talking about Alex saying, I think I
Speaker 1: might be done, I think I'm ready to be done.
Speaker 1: You know, this is the third year of a three
Speaker 1: year deal. I tried to have a little bit of
Speaker 1: a cooling off period to make sure that he was
Speaker 1: ready to be done. Um, and he was. When he
Speaker 1: was steadfast about it, it felt like this is the
Speaker 1: right time he's I think he's gonna have a great ending.
Speaker 1: I think, Um. You know, Claire Daines and Manny Patinkin
Speaker 1: have just had uh done incredible work. I think they've
Speaker 1: loved their experiences. It's been a very happy experience for
Speaker 1: everybody involved. You know. I also have to handed to
Speaker 1: Howard Gordon, Leslie, Lincoln Gladder. They've all been there the
Speaker 1: whole way. Um and um and Rick Rosen actually uh
Speaker 1: endeavor age and who kind of represents everybody everybody involved.
Speaker 1: And and while we're naming names, give to Bert Sulky,
Speaker 1: uh Foxe uh, Gary Levine and Randy Rounkole at showtime,
Speaker 1: and it's been a very happy experience for everyone involved.
Speaker 1: And every one of those people has been there from
Speaker 1: the beginning. UM, and I think it is will go
Speaker 1: out a real winner as a programmer. Does it give
Speaker 1: you a little uneas though, because it has been such
Speaker 1: a cornerstone of your schedule. I believe in you know,
Speaker 1: I believe last as long as your natural born life
Speaker 1: and then uh and then move on. I believe in
Speaker 1: the renewal of television. Uh. We have strong shows at
Speaker 1: every stage of their lifestyle. We've got a brand new
Speaker 1: show in uh, The Shy, which is showing real signs
Speaker 1: of being a hit. We've got Billions, which just finished
Speaker 1: season three stronger than ever um and was robbed, was
Speaker 1: robbed of Emmy nominations. It's just not It's for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: Billions is not nailed that particular popularity contest. And I
Speaker 1: think it has something to do with uh, um, the
Speaker 1: glossiness of it, the perceived brow nous of it. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure, but it is as uh. I mean, I
Speaker 1: reread a lot of scripts and as as you know,
Speaker 1: it is as well written and well acted as any
Speaker 1: of the shows that are that are nominated, so you know,
Speaker 1: but anyway, UM, I feel great about where we stands.
Speaker 1: We have we have shows that every every step. We
Speaker 1: have not had too many follow years where there's been
Speaker 1: nothing stick. We just add a new show and add
Speaker 1: a new show and slightly picking up the pace of
Speaker 1: adding the new shows. So I think, um, we're incredibly
Speaker 1: well positioned for the future. Um, these last couple of
Speaker 1: years have been have been great with um the Shy
Speaker 1: and Smith and Billions and I think Kidding is gonna
Speaker 1: matter and uh, and you know, two new shows I'm
Speaker 1: really excited about in Black Monday with Don Cheetle and
Speaker 1: Regina Hall and Andrew Reynolds and uh, then you're gonna
Speaker 1: see Sitting on a Hill with Kevin Bacon and all
Speaker 1: this Hodge and I think these are all sort of
Speaker 1: going to be positive have positive impact on our on
Speaker 1: our service. Have you talked at all, even in the
Speaker 1: broad strokes with Alex Ganza about the vision, I'm not.
Speaker 1: I don't expect you to give it to no, I
Speaker 1: actually haven't. I mean I've had I know what he
Speaker 1: was thinking a year or two years ago, because I
Speaker 1: had this conversation with him, you know, along the way
Speaker 1: in previous seasons. But in this period between uh, last
Speaker 1: season and this season, when we were having the cooling
Speaker 1: off period, are you sure you're you're ready to end it? Um?
Speaker 1: I haven't. I have not pushed him on that conversation.
Speaker 1: And I think now he's getting ready to go to
Speaker 1: d C for his you know, with the with the
Speaker 1: writing staff and actually some of the actors. I think
Speaker 1: Claire is hoping to be part of it, but she's
Speaker 1: also expecting about to have a baby. Um, And I
Speaker 1: know better than to ask him too many questions before
Speaker 1: he goes to d C. So Hill to all me
Speaker 1: and his right time. So I knew, I knew where
Speaker 1: his head was a year ago, but I'm not sure
Speaker 1: where his head is today, to be honest. Another interesting
Speaker 1: thing about Homeland is for all those people, all those
Speaker 1: heavy hitters, Alex Leslie, Lincoln, Gladder to stayed with it.
Speaker 1: Yeah that's amazing. You know, used to be to three
Speaker 1: seasons and you know a shore runner would want to
Speaker 1: go onto something else, and uh, it can work either way.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not a verse in some situations too.
Speaker 1: You've told the stories, you know, one writer has told
Speaker 1: the stories in their brain against a certain concept and
Speaker 1: then let's get somebody else's brain in there. So I'm
Speaker 1: not against it, um, but it is a beautiful thing
Speaker 1: when you have somebody really stay with the work of
Speaker 1: art overtime, UH, make it really personal in the way
Speaker 1: that you know, let's be honest, fundamentally, it's the mind
Speaker 1: meld between Alex Sinclair. It's what at its core uh
Speaker 1: and and Leslie has been a beautiful, beautiful realizer of that.
Speaker 1: But you know, television at its deepest core is about
Speaker 1: the back and forth between writer and actor. And UH,
Speaker 1: I really admire the creative relationship that developed between Alex
Speaker 1: and Claire, and I think it's a real tribute to
Speaker 1: both of them as generous um, generous artists. They kind
Speaker 1: of like, we're very careful to manage that relationship and
Speaker 1: U um, Claire takes care of Alex and Alex takes
Speaker 1: care of Claire, and it's a beautiful thing. And then
Speaker 1: you have you know, Mandy and Leslie uh bringing their
Speaker 1: top spin. It's it's it's kind of very exciting to watch.
Speaker 1: Could we see continuing Adventures of Saul Barronson? Is there
Speaker 1: any kind of franchising or spinoff even remotely possible. It's
Speaker 1: always possible. I I think it's important that the show
Speaker 1: come to an end, come to a great end before
Speaker 1: any of that stuff is really you know, we're not
Speaker 1: a broadcast network. Are not obliged to do something like that. Um.
Speaker 1: I would always listen to it. Uh, you know, any
Speaker 1: ideas that the core creators wanted to talk about, but
Speaker 1: I wouldn't hold my breath. Or could it be the
Speaker 1: kind of thing that would rest for a couple of
Speaker 1: years and then maybe they might have an inspiration? Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I mean I do believe that. Um As I say,
Speaker 1: the core idea the franchise, which is, yes, it's a
Speaker 1: spy franchise, but at its core, what is America's place
Speaker 1: in a complicated century world? That will not be an
Speaker 1: obsolete idea, you know until we get to the twenty
Speaker 1: second century. You know that that that construct is kind
Speaker 1: of you could adapted to your own challenge right now?
Speaker 1: What is Showtime's place in an expanding programming universe? My
Speaker 1: question for you. You became CEO just about two and
Speaker 1: a half years ago. Um, what and you came up
Speaker 1: as a programming executive at NBC in the in the
Speaker 1: real you know, glory days of Muss TV Fox. You
Speaker 1: worked as a producer. When you became the top executive
Speaker 1: at showtime, what did you find You know, obviously you
Speaker 1: brought an incredible programming resume, what did you find personally
Speaker 1: hard or challenging or what was the learning curve for you?
Speaker 1: Like to become a CEO. I find myself as motivated
Speaker 1: by the business side as I do by the creative
Speaker 1: side at this point in my career, and becoming CEO
Speaker 1: two and a half years ago coincided with a radical
Speaker 1: change and how we make our money uh UM. I
Speaker 1: came in about six months before we launched O T
Speaker 1: T and uh UM, and so I was sort of
Speaker 1: there in the planning and has radically transformed our our organization,
Speaker 1: how we market Who the people that we have in
Speaker 1: our marketing department are. We have um a core group
Speaker 1: of engineers. We never had engineers at at show time,
Speaker 1: with exception that people who put put the signal up
Speaker 1: on the satellite. But UM uh so all that is
Speaker 1: really different. So I was kind of there for the
Speaker 1: um you know, able to shape the transformation of an organization,
Speaker 1: transformation of a of a of a culture. And I
Speaker 1: find that incredibly motivating and fulfilling and uh so, um yeah,
Speaker 1: in one sense, I stepping onto a moving train, but
Speaker 1: um I was stepping onto a train that was moving
Speaker 1: in a significantly different direction. And uh and really able
Speaker 1: to shape that that that new direction. And so I
Speaker 1: find that, you know, incredibly rewarding. Great, Well, congratulations on
Speaker 1: your success today, Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 1: Thank you all right, thanks for listening. Be sure to
Speaker 1: join us next week for another episode of Strictly Business
Speaker 1: m