WEBVTT - Inside MS-13 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:23.196 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:23.236 --> 0:00:26.236 where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:26.636 --> 0:00:31.276 I'm Noah Feldman from the campaign trail to the State 0:00:31.276 --> 0:00:34.556 of the Union. Donald Trump has put the spotlight on 0:00:34.556 --> 0:00:38.956 one gang in particular, MS thirteen, or Mara Salvatrucha, a 0:00:39.076 --> 0:00:42.556 gang that originated in Los Angeles, spread to Central America 0:00:42.756 --> 0:00:46.396 and has come back for Trump. MS thirteen has become 0:00:46.556 --> 0:00:52.276 the centerpiece of an argument on closing borders and deportation. Today, 0:00:52.316 --> 0:00:54.476 we're going to try to get behind the story. We're 0:00:54.476 --> 0:00:57.596 going to ask what is MS thirteen, what kinds of 0:00:57.676 --> 0:01:01.396 violence has it actually perpetrated, and what should we think 0:01:01.436 --> 0:01:05.516 about that for the question of policy on immigration. We're 0:01:05.516 --> 0:01:07.756 also going to focus on the question of what happens 0:01:07.916 --> 0:01:10.436 when the government tries to wrack down on a gang 0:01:10.436 --> 0:01:13.756 like MS thirteen. To do that, we're joined today by 0:01:13.796 --> 0:01:17.036 Hannah Dryer. Hannah is a reporter for Pro Publica. She 0:01:17.116 --> 0:01:19.956 spent three years in Venezuela as correspondent for the AP, 0:01:20.316 --> 0:01:23.676 and she won the twenty nineteen Pulitzer Prize for Feature 0:01:23.716 --> 0:01:27.996 Writing for a fantastic series Trapped in Gangland. How the 0:01:28.116 --> 0:01:32.676 MS thirteen crackdown shattered immigrant lives. Hannah, thank you so 0:01:32.756 --> 0:01:35.156 much for joining us. Oh, thank you. It's great to 0:01:35.156 --> 0:01:38.316 be here, Hannah. Maybe we can start with the most 0:01:38.396 --> 0:01:43.036 basic historical question, who or what is MS thirteen? Where 0:01:43.076 --> 0:01:46.436 do they come from? And what are they? MS thirteen 0:01:46.676 --> 0:01:50.756 is a funny criminal organization because it's really founded sort 0:01:50.796 --> 0:01:55.236 of between the US and Central America. So the first 0:01:55.356 --> 0:01:59.756 MS thirteen members were Central American immigrants and refugees in 0:01:59.876 --> 0:02:03.116 Los Angeles. These were people who were fleeing civil wars 0:02:03.156 --> 0:02:06.396 in their own countries and they banded together in LA 0:02:06.596 --> 0:02:08.796 to try to protect themselves from the other gangs that 0:02:08.836 --> 0:02:12.076 were already there. So this is south central LA in 0:02:12.116 --> 0:02:15.356 the nineteen eighties and then into the early nineteen nineties, 0:02:15.516 --> 0:02:18.836 and it's an American born gang exactly. So they were 0:02:18.836 --> 0:02:23.156 sort of these scrappy young immigrants in LA who were 0:02:23.236 --> 0:02:27.516 getting picked on and bullied, and they were punk rockers. 0:02:27.556 --> 0:02:31.116 The aesthetic of MS thirteen is still very nineteen eighties. 0:02:31.196 --> 0:02:36.076 It's like skinny black jeans and devil iconography. It's sort 0:02:36.076 --> 0:02:40.316 of this like punk rock or metal symbolism that they 0:02:40.316 --> 0:02:44.756 still use. And they grew into a gang, and then 0:02:44.836 --> 0:02:47.676 there was a wave of deportations in the nineteen nineties 0:02:47.956 --> 0:02:50.876 and a lot of hardcore MS thirteen members were sent 0:02:50.956 --> 0:02:55.196 back to Central America, and they're the gang really metastasized 0:02:55.316 --> 0:03:00.076 and became this hyper violent, terrible organization that we have today. 0:03:00.676 --> 0:03:02.876 And we're seeing a new generation of kids who are 0:03:02.916 --> 0:03:06.356 fleeing that violence coming back to the US. And those 0:03:06.396 --> 0:03:08.516 are really the MS their team members that we see 0:03:08.556 --> 0:03:11.316 committing the most murders and the most violence in the 0:03:11.356 --> 0:03:14.316 States today. Some of the writing that I've read about 0:03:14.316 --> 0:03:17.396 their early origins, about MS thirteen and even until today, 0:03:17.796 --> 0:03:21.716 emphasizes the idea of kids without parents. It emphasizes the 0:03:21.756 --> 0:03:24.596 idea that the first members of the gang were people 0:03:24.636 --> 0:03:28.276 who had fled Central America as teenagers, often without their parents. 0:03:28.796 --> 0:03:31.796 It emphasized that people who are crossing borders, whether they're 0:03:31.836 --> 0:03:34.156 being deported or whether they're coming across the border, are 0:03:34.196 --> 0:03:36.476 often doing without their parents. First of all, I'm wondering 0:03:36.476 --> 0:03:38.316 if you think that's accurate. And second of all, even 0:03:38.316 --> 0:03:40.756 if it was accurate historically, is it still accurate today 0:03:40.756 --> 0:03:42.916 at all? Yeah? I mean, I think it's a gang 0:03:42.996 --> 0:03:45.916 born out of dislocation in a lot of ways. The 0:03:46.236 --> 0:03:49.676 Civil Wars in the nineteen eighties and Central America are crucial. 0:03:49.836 --> 0:03:53.116 A lot of people who came over were coming over alone, 0:03:53.236 --> 0:03:55.796 and they also had seen a lot of violence in 0:03:55.836 --> 0:03:58.276 their own countries. So these are young people who had 0:03:58.276 --> 0:04:02.156 already been traumatized by civil wars, which is important to 0:04:02.156 --> 0:04:06.276 say the US how to roll in absolutely. And now 0:04:06.396 --> 0:04:09.476 we're seeing kids who are sometimes coming without their parents. 0:04:09.596 --> 0:04:12.516 Often they've been left behind in places like El Salvador 0:04:12.676 --> 0:04:15.516 and Honduras by their parents, and they sort of grow 0:04:15.596 --> 0:04:18.876 up without a strong family structure, and then they come 0:04:18.916 --> 0:04:22.036 to this country and they're reunited with their parents, but 0:04:22.396 --> 0:04:25.836 their parents are almost strangers to them, and usually they're 0:04:25.876 --> 0:04:29.156 working really hard. So these kids come and they're lonely. 0:04:29.956 --> 0:04:31.996 And what they've told me is that they feel like 0:04:32.116 --> 0:04:35.636 MS thirteen really becomes their family, and MS thirteen understands 0:04:35.676 --> 0:04:39.236 them in a way that their parents don't. And you know, 0:04:39.276 --> 0:04:41.996 they feel sometimes like their parents abandon them and the 0:04:42.076 --> 0:04:45.156 gang was there for them when they needed someone. So 0:04:45.196 --> 0:04:47.076 it's a gang that can function as a kind of 0:04:47.116 --> 0:04:50.996 surrogate family, and that has, in your word, from a 0:04:51.036 --> 0:04:54.356 moment ago, a commitment to hyper violence. So let's talk 0:04:54.396 --> 0:04:56.356 about that hyper violence for a moment, will try to 0:04:56.356 --> 0:04:59.476 be nonsensational about it, but just accurate and describe it 0:04:59.596 --> 0:05:02.436 as it is. What kinds of violence qualify in your 0:05:02.476 --> 0:05:08.036 mind as hyper right, So all gangs basically are out 0:05:08.076 --> 0:05:10.636 there committing violence. MS thirteen is unique, I think, and 0:05:10.676 --> 0:05:13.276 that it's committing violence for violence's own sake a lot 0:05:13.356 --> 0:05:16.436 of times. So it's not a gang that has huge enterprises. 0:05:16.436 --> 0:05:19.596 They're not doing a ton of human trafficking or drug dealing. 0:05:19.996 --> 0:05:22.676 They're basically too chaotic for that kind of big business. 0:05:23.036 --> 0:05:27.036 What they're mostly doing is spectacular violence, and it's calculated 0:05:27.676 --> 0:05:31.476 to be spectacular, so spectacular in the sense of it 0:05:31.516 --> 0:05:35.876 makes a spectacle. Everyone has to notice it exactly. People 0:05:35.916 --> 0:05:39.236 talk about it in the neighborhood. It terrorizes people. So 0:05:39.276 --> 0:05:43.196 it's usually violence committed with machetes, and MS thirteen will 0:05:43.236 --> 0:05:46.076 attack somebody in a big group, and this is partly 0:05:46.196 --> 0:05:48.596 to foster that sense of family in a sick way, 0:05:48.796 --> 0:05:53.316 and also meaning the attackers are exactly. So the attackers will, 0:05:53.836 --> 0:05:56.556 you know, surround somebody in a sugarcane field if you're 0:05:56.556 --> 0:05:59.956 in El Salvador, or surround somebody in the woods if 0:05:59.956 --> 0:06:03.156 you're in Long Island and run at them all at 0:06:03.156 --> 0:06:07.116 once with machetes, and the police who deal with these 0:06:07.196 --> 0:06:09.436 murders say often people look like they've been hit by 0:06:09.436 --> 0:06:12.876 a car. People are just completely destroyed by these attacks, 0:06:12.956 --> 0:06:17.516 and they'll cut off people's limbs. They'll leave people in 0:06:17.556 --> 0:06:22.676 these very disturbing tableaus with several bodies stacked together, and 0:06:22.716 --> 0:06:26.356 they'll also use baseball bats. Sometimes they'll use tree branches, 0:06:27.116 --> 0:06:29.916 and the violence is just very brutal. Do you have 0:06:29.956 --> 0:06:32.956 a theory about why the violence? I mean, we're accustomed 0:06:32.956 --> 0:06:35.956 to a kind of Godfather like myth of organized crime 0:06:35.996 --> 0:06:38.996 as a organized which this isn't, but be as sort 0:06:38.996 --> 0:06:42.156 of aimed at putting together, you know, real money. That 0:06:42.196 --> 0:06:45.836 does not seem to be the case at all for MS. Thirteen. 0:06:45.916 --> 0:06:48.276 It seems that the violence, as you said, exists to 0:06:48.316 --> 0:06:52.036 create some communal feeling about violence. I think that's one 0:06:52.036 --> 0:06:54.516 of the scariest things about the gang, And I'm wondering 0:06:54.556 --> 0:06:57.756 if you have a thought about why, why why the 0:06:57.836 --> 0:07:00.476 violence for the sake of violence? It's very biked into 0:07:00.476 --> 0:07:03.156 the culture of MS thirteen. So, going back to what 0:07:03.196 --> 0:07:07.196 we were saying about those nineteen eighties symbols, MS thirteen 0:07:07.196 --> 0:07:09.236 talks a lot about the devil and people off and 0:07:09.316 --> 0:07:12.196 say the devil is here with us, or the devil 0:07:12.316 --> 0:07:14.356 took me over, so I had to do it. And 0:07:14.396 --> 0:07:17.436 in fact they're the core gang symbol, right is a 0:07:17.516 --> 0:07:21.316 hand formed into the shape of an M, right, which 0:07:21.316 --> 0:07:22.956 because devil horns if you put it up, and it's 0:07:22.956 --> 0:07:24.836 the M for the MS thirteen if you put it down. 0:07:24.836 --> 0:07:29.916 So yeah, exactly, and so they an MS. Their team 0:07:29.956 --> 0:07:32.276 member would tell you, well, this is basically a satanic 0:07:32.356 --> 0:07:35.676 organization and the devil demands blood, and so that's why 0:07:35.556 --> 0:07:39.316 that will be their own self description completely. And if 0:07:39.356 --> 0:07:41.996 you had anybody actually say that to you, oh yeah, yeah, 0:07:42.036 --> 0:07:43.796 they say it's just like that. They say, oh, the 0:07:43.836 --> 0:07:47.236 devil took me. The devil was with us. And when 0:07:47.276 --> 0:07:51.156 they're trained into the gang, when they're first initiated, especially 0:07:51.156 --> 0:07:54.756 in Central America, they have to kill someone and in 0:07:54.836 --> 0:07:56.956 order to get into the gang, yeah, to be a 0:07:56.956 --> 0:08:00.756 real member. And somebody who was initiated in that way 0:08:00.756 --> 0:08:03.436 described it to me and said, the senior leader came, 0:08:04.116 --> 0:08:07.716 they went to a field together. There was a man 0:08:07.756 --> 0:08:11.436 who was tied up, and the senior leader said, the 0:08:11.476 --> 0:08:13.476 devil is here with us right now, the devil is 0:08:13.516 --> 0:08:16.516 inside you, you have to kill this man. That's very 0:08:16.516 --> 0:08:19.956 disturbing me. I was telling you this went on to 0:08:20.036 --> 0:08:24.116 say they, I mean they killed the person. Yeah, they 0:08:24.116 --> 0:08:26.276 all did. So the person who was telling me this 0:08:26.396 --> 0:08:30.236 doesn't know if he struck the fatal blow, but he 0:08:30.276 --> 0:08:32.996 definitely feels like he became a murderer that day. Yeah, 0:08:32.996 --> 0:08:35.116 which was I guess the point of the ritual. It's 0:08:35.116 --> 0:08:36.876 hard to know if that serves a social function. You 0:08:36.916 --> 0:08:41.316 sort of want to say it doesn't. But another thing 0:08:41.316 --> 0:08:42.876 that people who are part of this gang tell me 0:08:42.916 --> 0:08:45.876 is that they joined because they wanted to feel powerful, 0:08:46.236 --> 0:08:48.156 they wanted to be known, and they felt like they 0:08:48.156 --> 0:08:52.756 were always getting picked on by other people. And Central 0:08:52.756 --> 0:08:56.436 America is a very violent place, and there's these real 0:08:56.476 --> 0:08:58.796 histories of trauma there. I mean, there were these very 0:08:58.836 --> 0:09:02.036 intense civil wars, and I think people live in a 0:09:02.076 --> 0:09:05.236 sense of perpetual fear, and they rightly live like that. 0:09:05.316 --> 0:09:07.756 I mean, they are often in fear for their lives, 0:09:08.116 --> 0:09:12.036 and being part of this gang and especially this violence, 0:09:12.076 --> 0:09:15.876 I think temporarily makes these young men mostly feel invincible. 0:09:16.476 --> 0:09:19.516 And then the other part of this culture that's really 0:09:19.556 --> 0:09:23.276 important is that it's a very fatalistic culture. So MS 0:09:23.316 --> 0:09:27.076 thirteen is sort of satanic in some ways. But the 0:09:27.156 --> 0:09:29.796 people who get deep into the gang also tell you 0:09:30.036 --> 0:09:33.036 that they know that they're going to end up dead 0:09:33.236 --> 0:09:35.996 or in prison. That feeds into this culture of violence 0:09:36.036 --> 0:09:38.836 because people don't care if they get caught, and so 0:09:38.956 --> 0:09:40.956 you do get a lot of people, and sometimes they're 0:09:40.996 --> 0:09:44.356 really young, like fifteen and sixteen, who are willing to 0:09:45.396 --> 0:09:47.396 go commit these acts of violence and not cover any 0:09:47.436 --> 0:09:49.436 of it up because they're figuring they're going to be 0:09:49.516 --> 0:09:51.796 dead soon anyway. They're going to be in prison anyway. 0:09:52.076 --> 0:09:53.956 And that fits in with what you were saying about 0:09:54.516 --> 0:09:56.956 MS thirteen not being focused on money. You know, if 0:09:56.996 --> 0:09:58.756 you have if you're a young gang banger and you 0:09:58.796 --> 0:10:01.636 have the fantasy that you'll get rich and retire from 0:10:01.636 --> 0:10:05.916 the gang life, then you might have some limits to 0:10:05.916 --> 0:10:07.316 what you might be prepared to do. You have a 0:10:07.356 --> 0:10:09.356 long run goal. But if your view from day one 0:10:09.476 --> 0:10:12.316 is I'm going to die, my soul already belongs to 0:10:12.316 --> 0:10:15.756 the devil, then there's not as much pressure I would 0:10:15.756 --> 0:10:17.596 think to try to amass money that there's a kind 0:10:17.636 --> 0:10:20.316 of long termism to the idea of amassing money completely. 0:10:20.476 --> 0:10:23.236 These are not goal oriented people. And most of the 0:10:23.356 --> 0:10:27.556 MS their team members who I reported on on Long Island, 0:10:27.556 --> 0:10:30.996 we're working normal jobs. So they were in maybe high 0:10:31.036 --> 0:10:32.916 school during the day, and then they were a dishwasher, 0:10:33.556 --> 0:10:36.196 or they were working at a car repair shop, they 0:10:36.196 --> 0:10:39.156 were working at fast food restaurants, and they're going and 0:10:39.196 --> 0:10:41.716 they're working full shifts, and then they're getting off and 0:10:41.796 --> 0:10:43.996 going to the woods and being MS their team members, 0:10:44.076 --> 0:10:46.516 and then they're getting up early and going to high school. 0:10:47.156 --> 0:10:50.556 So nobody is getting rich from this gang. Really, there 0:10:50.596 --> 0:10:52.236 was a story that I read it. I think this 0:10:52.356 --> 0:10:54.356 may have come from one of your articles that described 0:10:54.756 --> 0:10:57.436 a major drug bust that was set up with an 0:10:57.476 --> 0:11:00.476 MS thirteen leader that never happened because the leader couldn't 0:11:00.556 --> 0:11:05.036 raise the gas money to get in his car to 0:11:05.236 --> 0:11:08.556 drive and actually make the buy that the cops were 0:11:08.556 --> 0:11:10.996 staking out. Yeah, I mean, this was something that I 0:11:11.036 --> 0:11:14.396 saw all the time doing this reporting. I had access 0:11:14.436 --> 0:11:19.476 to one MS thirteen members Facebook messages, so I read 0:11:19.556 --> 0:11:25.076 through two thousand pages of Facebook messages between this one 0:11:25.156 --> 0:11:27.836 member and the gang leaders, and so much of what 0:11:27.876 --> 0:11:31.076 they were talking about was who can get gas today? 0:11:31.156 --> 0:11:33.716 Do we have a car today? Can anybody afford gas? 0:11:34.036 --> 0:11:36.316 If not, are we going to use our bicycles to 0:11:36.356 --> 0:11:39.356 go and try to sell weed or anybody even have 0:11:39.436 --> 0:11:44.476 a bicycle that's working right now. It's like being in 0:11:44.516 --> 0:11:47.116 the head of a broke teenager who's trying to get 0:11:47.116 --> 0:11:49.516 to the mall, except their teenagers who are trying to 0:11:49.516 --> 0:11:54.116 go find people to hurt or sell drugs. So that 0:11:54.196 --> 0:11:58.636 almost states why this is so terrifying, namely that it's 0:11:58.636 --> 0:12:02.156 transnational and you're describing teenagers trying to get to the 0:12:02.196 --> 0:12:06.596 mall in Long Island, except that they're not just going 0:12:06.636 --> 0:12:09.156 to the mall, They're going to engage in acts of 0:12:09.316 --> 0:12:13.676 organized violence. And the transnational aspect of Mstarchen has been 0:12:13.676 --> 0:12:15.676 there from the start. Right, It's a US gang that 0:12:15.676 --> 0:12:18.356 then gets transferred to Central America and then makes its 0:12:18.356 --> 0:12:21.276 way back to the United States in various complicated ways. 0:12:21.636 --> 0:12:23.116 So I guess what I want to ask you about 0:12:23.276 --> 0:12:28.556 is why does this violence persist in the US. I 0:12:28.636 --> 0:12:31.236 understand that in the case of Central America, there are 0:12:31.276 --> 0:12:34.356 countries that have been traumatized by violence, their individuals who 0:12:34.396 --> 0:12:37.756 have been traumatized. It somehow seems maybe this is just 0:12:37.836 --> 0:12:40.796 bias on my part, It somehow seems more comprehensible in 0:12:40.836 --> 0:12:45.716 the wake of long, painful violence, civil war which exists 0:12:45.756 --> 0:12:48.516 not only in El Salvadora but in other Central American countries, 0:12:48.756 --> 0:12:52.036 that one would get a kind of extreme gang of 0:12:52.036 --> 0:12:55.516 this sort. But here it is functioning in not just 0:12:55.556 --> 0:12:57.036 in the United States, but in Long Island, a few 0:12:57.036 --> 0:13:00.636 miles from where we're sitting right now, and that's of 0:13:00.636 --> 0:13:05.076 course inherently terrifying. Why is the violence following the group here? 0:13:05.676 --> 0:13:08.476 So this is sort of the most controversial point about 0:13:08.556 --> 0:13:13.596 MS thirt. Some people, especially at the Department of Justice 0:13:13.676 --> 0:13:17.596 right now and probably in the Republican Party, would tell 0:13:17.636 --> 0:13:20.956 you that MS thirteen is being directed in the United 0:13:20.996 --> 0:13:25.596 States by people in El Salvador and other people, mostly 0:13:25.716 --> 0:13:30.596 people who do direct gang intervention. Maybe immigration advocates would 0:13:30.636 --> 0:13:34.596 tell you that actually there's very little organization and MS 0:13:34.636 --> 0:13:39.676 thirteen functions like autonomous franchises, and there's almost no communication 0:13:39.716 --> 0:13:42.636 with El Salvador. And it's hard to know what's true 0:13:43.036 --> 0:13:46.716 because both sides sort of have an interest in arguing 0:13:46.796 --> 0:13:50.276 for their version of how this gang is working, and 0:13:50.316 --> 0:13:51.836 the gang's not going to come out and tell you. 0:13:52.516 --> 0:13:55.596 So what I saw, at least on Long Island, there 0:13:55.676 --> 0:13:58.716 is some communication with El Salvador, especially when it comes 0:13:58.796 --> 0:14:02.116 to green lighting people. That's how the gang talks about 0:14:02.116 --> 0:14:05.036 deciding to kill someone. So I saw that there is 0:14:05.116 --> 0:14:07.836 communication when it comes to killing a fellow gang member 0:14:07.956 --> 0:14:10.476 or figuring out if a gang is a snitch or not, 0:14:11.516 --> 0:14:13.956 and that when it comes to other kinds of violence, 0:14:14.036 --> 0:14:17.756 like going after the girls who are trash talking you 0:14:17.876 --> 0:14:21.036 in the school hallway the other day, I didn't see 0:14:21.036 --> 0:14:24.076 that there was much communication. I mean, it's fascinating you 0:14:24.156 --> 0:14:27.716 are offering an account that it's potentially consistent with both stories, 0:14:27.956 --> 0:14:31.356 with the FBI story and with the gang intervention story. 0:14:31.396 --> 0:14:34.196 In other words, one could credibly say that there is 0:14:34.356 --> 0:14:37.076 some kind of coordination if before you kill a fellow 0:14:37.076 --> 0:14:38.756 gang member you have to get a green light from 0:14:39.636 --> 0:14:42.836 someone in Elsalvador. But at the same time, most of 0:14:42.836 --> 0:14:46.076 the activity is presumably not of that nature, and so 0:14:46.116 --> 0:14:48.356 in that sense, it would be disorganized and uncoordinated and 0:14:48.356 --> 0:14:50.396 happening at the local level, right. I mean, like with 0:14:50.516 --> 0:14:52.876 so many of these super polarizing issues, the truth is 0:14:52.876 --> 0:14:56.276 probably somewhere in the middle. And as far as what 0:14:56.316 --> 0:14:58.196 we do about the violence that this gang is still 0:14:58.236 --> 0:15:00.836 perpetrating in this country, one thing I think is important 0:15:00.836 --> 0:15:03.476 to understand is that that violence isn't really growing. It 0:15:03.556 --> 0:15:05.636 sort of goes in cycles. So the gang has been 0:15:05.636 --> 0:15:08.476 the same size in this country for more than a 0:15:08.516 --> 0:15:11.956 decade at about ten thousand people, which is less than 0:15:11.996 --> 0:15:15.076 one percent of total gang members. And the violence that 0:15:15.116 --> 0:15:18.396 they commit is really insane. I mean, it grabs headlines. 0:15:18.436 --> 0:15:21.396 It's not like what other people are doing. But it's 0:15:21.396 --> 0:15:24.516 still less than one percent of gang murders. And what 0:15:24.556 --> 0:15:27.316 I saw is that it's really a local law enforcement issue. 0:15:28.076 --> 0:15:30.556 When law enforcement was able to take down this gang, 0:15:30.636 --> 0:15:34.676 it was mostly through the kind of sophisticated organized crime 0:15:35.236 --> 0:15:38.796 strategies that take down other kinds of gangs. So it 0:15:38.876 --> 0:15:42.156 wasn't about going to El Salvador and taking down like 0:15:42.476 --> 0:15:45.676 the head of MS thirteen. It was about figuring out 0:15:45.716 --> 0:15:50.236 who's in this gang in one town and finding reasons 0:15:50.236 --> 0:15:52.916 to arrest them, and then flipping them on each other 0:15:53.076 --> 0:15:55.196 and just sort of one by one, arresting everybody in 0:15:55.196 --> 0:15:57.356 the gang so that they weren't out on the streets 0:15:57.356 --> 0:16:00.876 committing murder and recruiting new people. Does that strike you 0:16:00.916 --> 0:16:04.196 as an approach that would address their root cause as well, though, 0:16:04.316 --> 0:16:06.796 or does it seem like it's more. In other words, 0:16:06.796 --> 0:16:08.916 you can imagine you need to join strategy. If in 0:16:09.196 --> 0:16:12.556 fact the gang is capable of sustaining itself at the 0:16:12.636 --> 0:16:15.356 number of ten thousand in the US, then it must 0:16:15.356 --> 0:16:19.276 be getting new members, and they're either American teenagers or 0:16:19.596 --> 0:16:23.476 teenagers who's come into the country, or some combination. Right. Well, 0:16:23.836 --> 0:16:26.036 I mean, I don't you would think that that's a 0:16:26.076 --> 0:16:29.676 simple strategy, and if it worked, then we just wouldn't 0:16:29.716 --> 0:16:32.356 have MS thirteen violence here. But it's not as simple 0:16:32.356 --> 0:16:34.796 as you would think. For one thing, this is a 0:16:34.836 --> 0:16:39.156 Spanish speaking gang and it's mostly composed of Latino people, 0:16:39.676 --> 0:16:42.436 and a lot of these small town police forces have 0:16:42.676 --> 0:16:45.716 very few Latino people who could infiltrate the gang and 0:16:45.756 --> 0:16:47.876 don't speak Spanish. So this is a phenomenon that we 0:16:47.916 --> 0:16:50.396 see all over the country, but it's very prevalent, for example, 0:16:50.396 --> 0:16:53.916 on Long Island, where you have large Latino populations that 0:16:54.196 --> 0:16:57.276 have come relatively recently in historical terms, and then you 0:16:57.316 --> 0:17:00.436 have police forces that are made up of the people 0:17:00.476 --> 0:17:03.156 who have been on Long Island for fifty or sixty years. 0:17:03.596 --> 0:17:05.876 Great so on Long Island during the height of an 0:17:05.956 --> 0:17:10.076 MS thirteen killing spree in twenty sixteen that was getting 0:17:10.156 --> 0:17:14.356 national headlines. Trump got very fixated on this nice spree. 0:17:14.436 --> 0:17:17.596 We're coming to him soon. The police force, which is 0:17:17.636 --> 0:17:19.596 one of the biggest police forces in the country, had 0:17:19.676 --> 0:17:25.036 three people who were certified to speak Spanish, and it's 0:17:25.076 --> 0:17:27.316 just very hard to see how a police force like 0:17:27.356 --> 0:17:30.396 that can effectively police this gang and protect the community 0:17:30.436 --> 0:17:32.916 from the gang. And what ended up happening on Long 0:17:32.956 --> 0:17:36.956 Island is the Long Island FBI Gang Task Force really 0:17:36.956 --> 0:17:40.276 beefed off its presence and brought in FBI agents who 0:17:40.276 --> 0:17:43.636 spoke Spanish and they were then able to pretty much 0:17:43.636 --> 0:17:45.676 dismantle the gang out there. And we haven't had a 0:17:45.796 --> 0:17:48.476 killing in almost a year. So it wasn't a pure 0:17:48.596 --> 0:17:50.636 local law enforce and effort. It was local law enforcement 0:17:50.676 --> 0:17:53.396 assisted by, in fact necessarily it sounds like assisted by 0:17:53.436 --> 0:17:57.476 the FBI, right, But I mean, why why was that necessary? 0:17:57.756 --> 0:18:00.956 You would think that a police force that is dealing 0:18:00.956 --> 0:18:03.556 with a lot of immigrant people. Some of the towns 0:18:03.596 --> 0:18:06.276 on Long Island are mostly immigrant, would be more equipped 0:18:06.356 --> 0:18:08.676 to deal with those kinds of problems, for sure. I mean, 0:18:08.876 --> 0:18:11.156 of course the police forces need to add, need to 0:18:11.156 --> 0:18:13.796 have lots of Spanish speaking officers, but I do wonder 0:18:13.876 --> 0:18:16.716 if I mean a small town police force isn't necessarily 0:18:16.716 --> 0:18:20.036 equipped to handle major gang violence. Yeah, So, I mean 0:18:20.076 --> 0:18:22.396 in this case, it worked pretty well. The FBI came 0:18:22.436 --> 0:18:25.076 in and they really cleaned house, and they did it 0:18:25.196 --> 0:18:28.156 by being on the ground in this community. And it 0:18:28.196 --> 0:18:32.116 had almost nothing to do with the border. And that's 0:18:32.156 --> 0:18:34.356 one thing that I hear a lot when people talk 0:18:34.356 --> 0:18:36.836 about MS thirteen. There's this idea that we just need 0:18:36.876 --> 0:18:39.756 to close the border or secure the border, and then 0:18:39.796 --> 0:18:41.996 we'll be able to get rid of this gang. And 0:18:42.076 --> 0:18:46.196 I think that really ignores the fact that the gang 0:18:46.276 --> 0:18:49.116 was founded in the US and most of the people 0:18:49.156 --> 0:18:51.596 who I've spoken with who are in the gang now 0:18:51.796 --> 0:18:56.276 were recruited in the US. So the typical situation that 0:18:56.316 --> 0:19:00.316 I saw was people would come over from Central America, 0:19:00.676 --> 0:19:03.396 land in one of these towns like the suburbs of 0:19:03.396 --> 0:19:06.556 New York or the suburbs of Virginia or LA and 0:19:06.716 --> 0:19:11.476 not have a strong support system and get recruited in 0:19:11.516 --> 0:19:15.156 an American high school or at an American McDonald's where 0:19:15.156 --> 0:19:18.436 they were hanging out after school. So closing the border 0:19:18.676 --> 0:19:22.196 doesn't do a lot to solve that. And FBI task 0:19:22.236 --> 0:19:24.636 forces also don't really help with that. I think that's 0:19:24.636 --> 0:19:27.916 something we need a different kind of program for. So 0:19:28.236 --> 0:19:33.276 there's an anthropologist called Tom Ward who wrote a book 0:19:33.636 --> 0:19:36.156 that's based on I think about a decade of field work, 0:19:36.156 --> 0:19:39.116 fourteen years of field work. He says inside of some 0:19:39.156 --> 0:19:41.796 parts of MS thirteen and it's periphery, and he called 0:19:41.836 --> 0:19:46.996 the book Gangs Without Borders to emphasize the transnational nature 0:19:47.036 --> 0:19:50.076 of the gang, that it goes across borders. And then 0:19:50.276 --> 0:19:52.236 the opening paragraph of the book when you open it up, 0:19:52.276 --> 0:19:54.716 is an apology for the title, which is very rare. 0:19:54.756 --> 0:19:56.116 You know when you write, when you write a book, 0:19:56.196 --> 0:19:57.716 you don't usually want to have to apologize for the 0:19:57.716 --> 0:19:59.156 title of first thing out of the box. And he says, 0:19:59.156 --> 0:20:00.916 you know, I don't want you to think, in hearing 0:20:00.956 --> 0:20:03.956 this title, that we're talking about something like an international 0:20:03.996 --> 0:20:06.396 terrorist organization. On the other hand, I am trying to 0:20:06.436 --> 0:20:09.396 show you that the nature of moving between country has 0:20:09.436 --> 0:20:13.116 been part of or significant to the experience of MS thirteen, 0:20:13.556 --> 0:20:15.716 and I want to use that balance to try to 0:20:15.756 --> 0:20:20.236 ask about this this point of the border closing. Clearly 0:20:20.356 --> 0:20:22.396 we're thinking of this when we hear it because of 0:20:22.436 --> 0:20:25.756 Donald Trump. Trump maybe he was influenced by the fact 0:20:25.756 --> 0:20:27.836 that he's from Queens, which is part of Long Island, 0:20:27.916 --> 0:20:29.956 and is aware of what's going on in the Long 0:20:29.996 --> 0:20:32.556 Island world. And then this spike of murders in Long 0:20:32.596 --> 0:20:34.956 Island that you described from MS thirteen happened around the 0:20:34.956 --> 0:20:39.556 time that he was running for president, and he made 0:20:39.556 --> 0:20:42.756 this a centerpiece of his rhetoric. And since part of 0:20:42.756 --> 0:20:45.276 his run of the presence he was to emphasize closing 0:20:45.276 --> 0:20:49.076 the border and the dangers of immigrants crossing the border, 0:20:49.076 --> 0:20:51.596 and particularly of Central American immigrants crossing the borders, it 0:20:51.676 --> 0:20:53.996 was sort of like a cause made to order for him. 0:20:54.116 --> 0:20:58.836 What is the danger associated with thinking of border closings 0:20:58.836 --> 0:21:02.076 as something that could reduce or cut down on MS thirteen? 0:21:02.076 --> 0:21:04.556 You've made the case that it wouldn't work. But what's 0:21:04.556 --> 0:21:07.156 the danger associated with saying, well, let's try Why don't 0:21:07.156 --> 0:21:10.556 we try to do more work of deporting gang members 0:21:10.596 --> 0:21:13.076 if they're not US citizens and trying to stop gang 0:21:13.116 --> 0:21:15.436 members from coming in. Yeah, I mean, I do think 0:21:15.436 --> 0:21:18.196 the fact that Trump is from Queens has a ton 0:21:18.276 --> 0:21:20.316 to do with how focused he's been on this gang. 0:21:20.676 --> 0:21:24.236 It's funny, there have been all of these there's been 0:21:24.236 --> 0:21:26.876 all this violence on Long Island, and there's also been 0:21:26.916 --> 0:21:29.156 all this MS thirteen violence in the suburbs of DC, 0:21:29.756 --> 0:21:32.716 but Trump is so much more focused on what's going 0:21:32.756 --> 0:21:34.956 on up in New York, even though he's technically closer 0:21:34.996 --> 0:21:38.556 to what's going on like Virginia and Maryland, so those psychologically, 0:21:38.596 --> 0:21:41.916 he's very much a product of the Long Island milia completely. 0:21:42.396 --> 0:21:46.916