1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,196 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:23,236 --> 00:00:26,236 Speaker 1: where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:26,636 --> 00:00:31,276 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman from the campaign trail to the State 4 00:00:31,276 --> 00:00:34,556 Speaker 1: of the Union. Donald Trump has put the spotlight on 5 00:00:34,556 --> 00:00:38,956 Speaker 1: one gang in particular, MS thirteen, or Mara Salvatrucha, a 6 00:00:39,076 --> 00:00:42,556 Speaker 1: gang that originated in Los Angeles, spread to Central America 7 00:00:42,756 --> 00:00:46,396 Speaker 1: and has come back for Trump. MS thirteen has become 8 00:00:46,556 --> 00:00:52,276 Speaker 1: the centerpiece of an argument on closing borders and deportation. Today, 9 00:00:52,316 --> 00:00:54,476 Speaker 1: we're going to try to get behind the story. We're 10 00:00:54,476 --> 00:00:57,596 Speaker 1: going to ask what is MS thirteen, what kinds of 11 00:00:57,676 --> 00:01:01,396 Speaker 1: violence has it actually perpetrated, and what should we think 12 00:01:01,436 --> 00:01:05,516 Speaker 1: about that for the question of policy on immigration. We're 13 00:01:05,516 --> 00:01:07,756 Speaker 1: also going to focus on the question of what happens 14 00:01:07,916 --> 00:01:10,436 Speaker 1: when the government tries to wrack down on a gang 15 00:01:10,436 --> 00:01:13,756 Speaker 1: like MS thirteen. To do that, we're joined today by 16 00:01:13,796 --> 00:01:17,036 Speaker 1: Hannah Dryer. Hannah is a reporter for Pro Publica. She 17 00:01:17,116 --> 00:01:19,956 Speaker 1: spent three years in Venezuela as correspondent for the AP, 18 00:01:20,316 --> 00:01:23,676 Speaker 1: and she won the twenty nineteen Pulitzer Prize for Feature 19 00:01:23,716 --> 00:01:27,996 Speaker 1: Writing for a fantastic series Trapped in Gangland. How the 20 00:01:28,116 --> 00:01:32,676 Speaker 1: MS thirteen crackdown shattered immigrant lives. Hannah, thank you so 21 00:01:32,756 --> 00:01:35,156 Speaker 1: much for joining us. Oh, thank you. It's great to 22 00:01:35,156 --> 00:01:38,316 Speaker 1: be here, Hannah. Maybe we can start with the most 23 00:01:38,396 --> 00:01:43,036 Speaker 1: basic historical question, who or what is MS thirteen? Where 24 00:01:43,076 --> 00:01:46,436 Speaker 1: do they come from? And what are they? MS thirteen 25 00:01:46,676 --> 00:01:50,756 Speaker 1: is a funny criminal organization because it's really founded sort 26 00:01:50,796 --> 00:01:55,236 Speaker 1: of between the US and Central America. So the first 27 00:01:55,356 --> 00:01:59,756 Speaker 1: MS thirteen members were Central American immigrants and refugees in 28 00:01:59,876 --> 00:02:03,116 Speaker 1: Los Angeles. These were people who were fleeing civil wars 29 00:02:03,156 --> 00:02:06,396 Speaker 1: in their own countries and they banded together in LA 30 00:02:06,596 --> 00:02:08,796 Speaker 1: to try to protect themselves from the other gangs that 31 00:02:08,836 --> 00:02:12,076 Speaker 1: were already there. So this is south central LA in 32 00:02:12,116 --> 00:02:15,356 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties and then into the early nineteen nineties, 33 00:02:15,516 --> 00:02:18,836 Speaker 1: and it's an American born gang exactly. So they were 34 00:02:18,836 --> 00:02:23,156 Speaker 1: sort of these scrappy young immigrants in LA who were 35 00:02:23,236 --> 00:02:27,516 Speaker 1: getting picked on and bullied, and they were punk rockers. 36 00:02:27,556 --> 00:02:31,116 Speaker 1: The aesthetic of MS thirteen is still very nineteen eighties. 37 00:02:31,196 --> 00:02:36,076 Speaker 1: It's like skinny black jeans and devil iconography. It's sort 38 00:02:36,076 --> 00:02:40,316 Speaker 1: of this like punk rock or metal symbolism that they 39 00:02:40,316 --> 00:02:44,756 Speaker 1: still use. And they grew into a gang, and then 40 00:02:44,836 --> 00:02:47,676 Speaker 1: there was a wave of deportations in the nineteen nineties 41 00:02:47,956 --> 00:02:50,876 Speaker 1: and a lot of hardcore MS thirteen members were sent 42 00:02:50,956 --> 00:02:55,196 Speaker 1: back to Central America, and they're the gang really metastasized 43 00:02:55,316 --> 00:03:00,076 Speaker 1: and became this hyper violent, terrible organization that we have today. 44 00:03:00,676 --> 00:03:02,876 Speaker 1: And we're seeing a new generation of kids who are 45 00:03:02,916 --> 00:03:06,356 Speaker 1: fleeing that violence coming back to the US. And those 46 00:03:06,396 --> 00:03:08,516 Speaker 1: are really the MS their team members that we see 47 00:03:08,556 --> 00:03:11,316 Speaker 1: committing the most murders and the most violence in the 48 00:03:11,356 --> 00:03:14,316 Speaker 1: States today. Some of the writing that I've read about 49 00:03:14,316 --> 00:03:17,396 Speaker 1: their early origins, about MS thirteen and even until today, 50 00:03:17,796 --> 00:03:21,716 Speaker 1: emphasizes the idea of kids without parents. It emphasizes the 51 00:03:21,756 --> 00:03:24,596 Speaker 1: idea that the first members of the gang were people 52 00:03:24,636 --> 00:03:28,276 Speaker 1: who had fled Central America as teenagers, often without their parents. 53 00:03:28,796 --> 00:03:31,796 Speaker 1: It emphasized that people who are crossing borders, whether they're 54 00:03:31,836 --> 00:03:34,156 Speaker 1: being deported or whether they're coming across the border, are 55 00:03:34,196 --> 00:03:36,476 Speaker 1: often doing without their parents. First of all, I'm wondering 56 00:03:36,476 --> 00:03:38,316 Speaker 1: if you think that's accurate. And second of all, even 57 00:03:38,316 --> 00:03:40,756 Speaker 1: if it was accurate historically, is it still accurate today 58 00:03:40,756 --> 00:03:42,916 Speaker 1: at all? Yeah? I mean, I think it's a gang 59 00:03:42,996 --> 00:03:45,916 Speaker 1: born out of dislocation in a lot of ways. The 60 00:03:46,236 --> 00:03:49,676 Speaker 1: Civil Wars in the nineteen eighties and Central America are crucial. 61 00:03:49,836 --> 00:03:53,116 Speaker 1: A lot of people who came over were coming over alone, 62 00:03:53,236 --> 00:03:55,796 Speaker 1: and they also had seen a lot of violence in 63 00:03:55,836 --> 00:03:58,276 Speaker 1: their own countries. So these are young people who had 64 00:03:58,276 --> 00:04:02,156 Speaker 1: already been traumatized by civil wars, which is important to 65 00:04:02,156 --> 00:04:06,276 Speaker 1: say the US how to roll in absolutely. And now 66 00:04:06,396 --> 00:04:09,476 Speaker 1: we're seeing kids who are sometimes coming without their parents. 67 00:04:09,596 --> 00:04:12,516 Speaker 1: Often they've been left behind in places like El Salvador 68 00:04:12,676 --> 00:04:15,516 Speaker 1: and Honduras by their parents, and they sort of grow 69 00:04:15,596 --> 00:04:18,876 Speaker 1: up without a strong family structure, and then they come 70 00:04:18,916 --> 00:04:22,036 Speaker 1: to this country and they're reunited with their parents, but 71 00:04:22,396 --> 00:04:25,836 Speaker 1: their parents are almost strangers to them, and usually they're 72 00:04:25,876 --> 00:04:29,156 Speaker 1: working really hard. So these kids come and they're lonely. 73 00:04:29,956 --> 00:04:31,996 Speaker 1: And what they've told me is that they feel like 74 00:04:32,116 --> 00:04:35,636 Speaker 1: MS thirteen really becomes their family, and MS thirteen understands 75 00:04:35,676 --> 00:04:39,236 Speaker 1: them in a way that their parents don't. And you know, 76 00:04:39,276 --> 00:04:41,996 Speaker 1: they feel sometimes like their parents abandon them and the 77 00:04:42,076 --> 00:04:45,156 Speaker 1: gang was there for them when they needed someone. So 78 00:04:45,196 --> 00:04:47,076 Speaker 1: it's a gang that can function as a kind of 79 00:04:47,116 --> 00:04:50,996 Speaker 1: surrogate family, and that has, in your word, from a 80 00:04:51,036 --> 00:04:54,356 Speaker 1: moment ago, a commitment to hyper violence. So let's talk 81 00:04:54,396 --> 00:04:56,356 Speaker 1: about that hyper violence for a moment, will try to 82 00:04:56,356 --> 00:04:59,476 Speaker 1: be nonsensational about it, but just accurate and describe it 83 00:04:59,596 --> 00:05:02,436 Speaker 1: as it is. What kinds of violence qualify in your 84 00:05:02,476 --> 00:05:08,036 Speaker 1: mind as hyper right, So all gangs basically are out 85 00:05:08,076 --> 00:05:10,636 Speaker 1: there committing violence. MS thirteen is unique, I think, and 86 00:05:10,676 --> 00:05:13,276 Speaker 1: that it's committing violence for violence's own sake a lot 87 00:05:13,356 --> 00:05:16,436 Speaker 1: of times. So it's not a gang that has huge enterprises. 88 00:05:16,436 --> 00:05:19,596 Speaker 1: They're not doing a ton of human trafficking or drug dealing. 89 00:05:19,996 --> 00:05:22,676 Speaker 1: They're basically too chaotic for that kind of big business. 90 00:05:23,036 --> 00:05:27,036 Speaker 1: What they're mostly doing is spectacular violence, and it's calculated 91 00:05:27,676 --> 00:05:31,476 Speaker 1: to be spectacular, so spectacular in the sense of it 92 00:05:31,516 --> 00:05:35,876 Speaker 1: makes a spectacle. Everyone has to notice it exactly. People 93 00:05:35,916 --> 00:05:39,236 Speaker 1: talk about it in the neighborhood. It terrorizes people. So 94 00:05:39,276 --> 00:05:43,196 Speaker 1: it's usually violence committed with machetes, and MS thirteen will 95 00:05:43,236 --> 00:05:46,076 Speaker 1: attack somebody in a big group, and this is partly 96 00:05:46,196 --> 00:05:48,596 Speaker 1: to foster that sense of family in a sick way, 97 00:05:48,796 --> 00:05:53,316 Speaker 1: and also meaning the attackers are exactly. So the attackers will, 98 00:05:53,836 --> 00:05:56,556 Speaker 1: you know, surround somebody in a sugarcane field if you're 99 00:05:56,556 --> 00:05:59,956 Speaker 1: in El Salvador, or surround somebody in the woods if 100 00:05:59,956 --> 00:06:03,156 Speaker 1: you're in Long Island and run at them all at 101 00:06:03,156 --> 00:06:07,116 Speaker 1: once with machetes, and the police who deal with these 102 00:06:07,196 --> 00:06:09,436 Speaker 1: murders say often people look like they've been hit by 103 00:06:09,436 --> 00:06:12,876 Speaker 1: a car. People are just completely destroyed by these attacks, 104 00:06:12,956 --> 00:06:17,516 Speaker 1: and they'll cut off people's limbs. They'll leave people in 105 00:06:17,556 --> 00:06:22,676 Speaker 1: these very disturbing tableaus with several bodies stacked together, and 106 00:06:22,716 --> 00:06:26,356 Speaker 1: they'll also use baseball bats. Sometimes they'll use tree branches, 107 00:06:27,116 --> 00:06:29,916 Speaker 1: and the violence is just very brutal. Do you have 108 00:06:29,956 --> 00:06:32,956 Speaker 1: a theory about why the violence? I mean, we're accustomed 109 00:06:32,956 --> 00:06:35,956 Speaker 1: to a kind of Godfather like myth of organized crime 110 00:06:35,996 --> 00:06:38,996 Speaker 1: as a organized which this isn't, but be as sort 111 00:06:38,996 --> 00:06:42,156 Speaker 1: of aimed at putting together, you know, real money. That 112 00:06:42,196 --> 00:06:45,836 Speaker 1: does not seem to be the case at all for MS. Thirteen. 113 00:06:45,916 --> 00:06:48,276 Speaker 1: It seems that the violence, as you said, exists to 114 00:06:48,316 --> 00:06:52,036 Speaker 1: create some communal feeling about violence. I think that's one 115 00:06:52,036 --> 00:06:54,516 Speaker 1: of the scariest things about the gang, And I'm wondering 116 00:06:54,556 --> 00:06:57,756 Speaker 1: if you have a thought about why, why why the 117 00:06:57,836 --> 00:07:00,476 Speaker 1: violence for the sake of violence? It's very biked into 118 00:07:00,476 --> 00:07:03,156 Speaker 1: the culture of MS thirteen. So, going back to what 119 00:07:03,196 --> 00:07:07,196 Speaker 1: we were saying about those nineteen eighties symbols, MS thirteen 120 00:07:07,196 --> 00:07:09,236 Speaker 1: talks a lot about the devil and people off and 121 00:07:09,316 --> 00:07:12,196 Speaker 1: say the devil is here with us, or the devil 122 00:07:12,316 --> 00:07:14,356 Speaker 1: took me over, so I had to do it. And 123 00:07:14,396 --> 00:07:17,436 Speaker 1: in fact they're the core gang symbol, right is a 124 00:07:17,516 --> 00:07:21,316 Speaker 1: hand formed into the shape of an M, right, which 125 00:07:21,316 --> 00:07:22,956 Speaker 1: because devil horns if you put it up, and it's 126 00:07:22,956 --> 00:07:24,836 Speaker 1: the M for the MS thirteen if you put it down. 127 00:07:24,836 --> 00:07:29,916 Speaker 1: So yeah, exactly, and so they an MS. Their team 128 00:07:29,956 --> 00:07:32,276 Speaker 1: member would tell you, well, this is basically a satanic 129 00:07:32,356 --> 00:07:35,676 Speaker 1: organization and the devil demands blood, and so that's why 130 00:07:35,556 --> 00:07:39,316 Speaker 1: that will be their own self description completely. And if 131 00:07:39,356 --> 00:07:41,996 Speaker 1: you had anybody actually say that to you, oh yeah, yeah, 132 00:07:42,036 --> 00:07:43,796 Speaker 1: they say it's just like that. They say, oh, the 133 00:07:43,836 --> 00:07:47,236 Speaker 1: devil took me. The devil was with us. And when 134 00:07:47,276 --> 00:07:51,156 Speaker 1: they're trained into the gang, when they're first initiated, especially 135 00:07:51,156 --> 00:07:54,756 Speaker 1: in Central America, they have to kill someone and in 136 00:07:54,836 --> 00:07:56,956 Speaker 1: order to get into the gang, yeah, to be a 137 00:07:56,956 --> 00:08:00,756 Speaker 1: real member. And somebody who was initiated in that way 138 00:08:00,756 --> 00:08:03,436 Speaker 1: described it to me and said, the senior leader came, 139 00:08:04,116 --> 00:08:07,716 Speaker 1: they went to a field together. There was a man 140 00:08:07,756 --> 00:08:11,436 Speaker 1: who was tied up, and the senior leader said, the 141 00:08:11,476 --> 00:08:13,476 Speaker 1: devil is here with us right now, the devil is 142 00:08:13,516 --> 00:08:16,516 Speaker 1: inside you, you have to kill this man. That's very 143 00:08:16,516 --> 00:08:19,956 Speaker 1: disturbing me. I was telling you this went on to 144 00:08:20,036 --> 00:08:24,116 Speaker 1: say they, I mean they killed the person. Yeah, they 145 00:08:24,116 --> 00:08:26,276 Speaker 1: all did. So the person who was telling me this 146 00:08:26,396 --> 00:08:30,236 Speaker 1: doesn't know if he struck the fatal blow, but he 147 00:08:30,276 --> 00:08:32,996 Speaker 1: definitely feels like he became a murderer that day. Yeah, 148 00:08:32,996 --> 00:08:35,116 Speaker 1: which was I guess the point of the ritual. It's 149 00:08:35,116 --> 00:08:36,876 Speaker 1: hard to know if that serves a social function. You 150 00:08:36,916 --> 00:08:41,316 Speaker 1: sort of want to say it doesn't. But another thing 151 00:08:41,316 --> 00:08:42,876 Speaker 1: that people who are part of this gang tell me 152 00:08:42,916 --> 00:08:45,876 Speaker 1: is that they joined because they wanted to feel powerful, 153 00:08:46,236 --> 00:08:48,156 Speaker 1: they wanted to be known, and they felt like they 154 00:08:48,156 --> 00:08:52,756 Speaker 1: were always getting picked on by other people. And Central 155 00:08:52,756 --> 00:08:56,436 Speaker 1: America is a very violent place, and there's these real 156 00:08:56,476 --> 00:08:58,796 Speaker 1: histories of trauma there. I mean, there were these very 157 00:08:58,836 --> 00:09:02,036 Speaker 1: intense civil wars, and I think people live in a 158 00:09:02,076 --> 00:09:05,236 Speaker 1: sense of perpetual fear, and they rightly live like that. 159 00:09:05,316 --> 00:09:07,756 Speaker 1: I mean, they are often in fear for their lives, 160 00:09:08,116 --> 00:09:12,036 Speaker 1: and being part of this gang and especially this violence, 161 00:09:12,076 --> 00:09:15,876 Speaker 1: I think temporarily makes these young men mostly feel invincible. 162 00:09:16,476 --> 00:09:19,516 Speaker 1: And then the other part of this culture that's really 163 00:09:19,556 --> 00:09:23,276 Speaker 1: important is that it's a very fatalistic culture. So MS 164 00:09:23,316 --> 00:09:27,076 Speaker 1: thirteen is sort of satanic in some ways. But the 165 00:09:27,156 --> 00:09:29,796 Speaker 1: people who get deep into the gang also tell you 166 00:09:30,036 --> 00:09:33,036 Speaker 1: that they know that they're going to end up dead 167 00:09:33,236 --> 00:09:35,996 Speaker 1: or in prison. That feeds into this culture of violence 168 00:09:36,036 --> 00:09:38,836 Speaker 1: because people don't care if they get caught, and so 169 00:09:38,956 --> 00:09:40,956 Speaker 1: you do get a lot of people, and sometimes they're 170 00:09:40,996 --> 00:09:44,356 Speaker 1: really young, like fifteen and sixteen, who are willing to 171 00:09:45,396 --> 00:09:47,396 Speaker 1: go commit these acts of violence and not cover any 172 00:09:47,436 --> 00:09:49,436 Speaker 1: of it up because they're figuring they're going to be 173 00:09:49,516 --> 00:09:51,796 Speaker 1: dead soon anyway. They're going to be in prison anyway. 174 00:09:52,076 --> 00:09:53,956 Speaker 1: And that fits in with what you were saying about 175 00:09:54,516 --> 00:09:56,956 Speaker 1: MS thirteen not being focused on money. You know, if 176 00:09:56,996 --> 00:09:58,756 Speaker 1: you have if you're a young gang banger and you 177 00:09:58,796 --> 00:10:01,636 Speaker 1: have the fantasy that you'll get rich and retire from 178 00:10:01,636 --> 00:10:05,916 Speaker 1: the gang life, then you might have some limits to 179 00:10:05,916 --> 00:10:07,316 Speaker 1: what you might be prepared to do. You have a 180 00:10:07,356 --> 00:10:09,356 Speaker 1: long run goal. But if your view from day one 181 00:10:09,476 --> 00:10:12,316 Speaker 1: is I'm going to die, my soul already belongs to 182 00:10:12,316 --> 00:10:15,756 Speaker 1: the devil, then there's not as much pressure I would 183 00:10:15,756 --> 00:10:17,596 Speaker 1: think to try to amass money that there's a kind 184 00:10:17,636 --> 00:10:20,316 Speaker 1: of long termism to the idea of amassing money completely. 185 00:10:20,476 --> 00:10:23,236 Speaker 1: These are not goal oriented people. And most of the 186 00:10:23,356 --> 00:10:27,556 Speaker 1: MS their team members who I reported on on Long Island, 187 00:10:27,556 --> 00:10:30,996 Speaker 1: we're working normal jobs. So they were in maybe high 188 00:10:31,036 --> 00:10:32,916 Speaker 1: school during the day, and then they were a dishwasher, 189 00:10:33,556 --> 00:10:36,196 Speaker 1: or they were working at a car repair shop, they 190 00:10:36,196 --> 00:10:39,156 Speaker 1: were working at fast food restaurants, and they're going and 191 00:10:39,196 --> 00:10:41,716 Speaker 1: they're working full shifts, and then they're getting off and 192 00:10:41,796 --> 00:10:43,996 Speaker 1: going to the woods and being MS their team members, 193 00:10:44,076 --> 00:10:46,516 Speaker 1: and then they're getting up early and going to high school. 194 00:10:47,156 --> 00:10:50,556 Speaker 1: So nobody is getting rich from this gang. Really, there 195 00:10:50,596 --> 00:10:52,236 Speaker 1: was a story that I read it. I think this 196 00:10:52,356 --> 00:10:54,356 Speaker 1: may have come from one of your articles that described 197 00:10:54,756 --> 00:10:57,436 Speaker 1: a major drug bust that was set up with an 198 00:10:57,476 --> 00:11:00,476 Speaker 1: MS thirteen leader that never happened because the leader couldn't 199 00:11:00,556 --> 00:11:05,036 Speaker 1: raise the gas money to get in his car to 200 00:11:05,236 --> 00:11:08,556 Speaker 1: drive and actually make the buy that the cops were 201 00:11:08,556 --> 00:11:10,996 Speaker 1: staking out. Yeah, I mean, this was something that I 202 00:11:11,036 --> 00:11:14,396 Speaker 1: saw all the time doing this reporting. I had access 203 00:11:14,436 --> 00:11:19,476 Speaker 1: to one MS thirteen members Facebook messages, so I read 204 00:11:19,556 --> 00:11:25,076 Speaker 1: through two thousand pages of Facebook messages between this one 205 00:11:25,156 --> 00:11:27,836 Speaker 1: member and the gang leaders, and so much of what 206 00:11:27,876 --> 00:11:31,076 Speaker 1: they were talking about was who can get gas today? 207 00:11:31,156 --> 00:11:33,716 Speaker 1: Do we have a car today? Can anybody afford gas? 208 00:11:34,036 --> 00:11:36,316 Speaker 1: If not, are we going to use our bicycles to 209 00:11:36,356 --> 00:11:39,356 Speaker 1: go and try to sell weed or anybody even have 210 00:11:39,436 --> 00:11:44,476 Speaker 1: a bicycle that's working right now. It's like being in 211 00:11:44,516 --> 00:11:47,116 Speaker 1: the head of a broke teenager who's trying to get 212 00:11:47,116 --> 00:11:49,516 Speaker 1: to the mall, except their teenagers who are trying to 213 00:11:49,516 --> 00:11:54,116 Speaker 1: go find people to hurt or sell drugs. So that 214 00:11:54,196 --> 00:11:58,636 Speaker 1: almost states why this is so terrifying, namely that it's 215 00:11:58,636 --> 00:12:02,156 Speaker 1: transnational and you're describing teenagers trying to get to the 216 00:12:02,196 --> 00:12:06,596 Speaker 1: mall in Long Island, except that they're not just going 217 00:12:06,636 --> 00:12:09,156 Speaker 1: to the mall, They're going to engage in acts of 218 00:12:09,316 --> 00:12:13,676 Speaker 1: organized violence. And the transnational aspect of Mstarchen has been 219 00:12:13,676 --> 00:12:15,676 Speaker 1: there from the start. Right, It's a US gang that 220 00:12:15,676 --> 00:12:18,356 Speaker 1: then gets transferred to Central America and then makes its 221 00:12:18,356 --> 00:12:21,276 Speaker 1: way back to the United States in various complicated ways. 222 00:12:21,636 --> 00:12:23,116 Speaker 1: So I guess what I want to ask you about 223 00:12:23,276 --> 00:12:28,556 Speaker 1: is why does this violence persist in the US. I 224 00:12:28,636 --> 00:12:31,236 Speaker 1: understand that in the case of Central America, there are 225 00:12:31,276 --> 00:12:34,356 Speaker 1: countries that have been traumatized by violence, their individuals who 226 00:12:34,396 --> 00:12:37,756 Speaker 1: have been traumatized. It somehow seems maybe this is just 227 00:12:37,836 --> 00:12:40,796 Speaker 1: bias on my part, It somehow seems more comprehensible in 228 00:12:40,836 --> 00:12:45,716 Speaker 1: the wake of long, painful violence, civil war which exists 229 00:12:45,756 --> 00:12:48,516 Speaker 1: not only in El Salvadora but in other Central American countries, 230 00:12:48,756 --> 00:12:52,036 Speaker 1: that one would get a kind of extreme gang of 231 00:12:52,036 --> 00:12:55,516 Speaker 1: this sort. But here it is functioning in not just 232 00:12:55,556 --> 00:12:57,036 Speaker 1: in the United States, but in Long Island, a few 233 00:12:57,036 --> 00:13:00,636 Speaker 1: miles from where we're sitting right now, and that's of 234 00:13:00,636 --> 00:13:05,076 Speaker 1: course inherently terrifying. Why is the violence following the group here? 235 00:13:05,676 --> 00:13:08,476 Speaker 1: So this is sort of the most controversial point about 236 00:13:08,556 --> 00:13:13,596 Speaker 1: MS thirt. Some people, especially at the Department of Justice 237 00:13:13,676 --> 00:13:17,596 Speaker 1: right now and probably in the Republican Party, would tell 238 00:13:17,636 --> 00:13:20,956 Speaker 1: you that MS thirteen is being directed in the United 239 00:13:20,996 --> 00:13:25,596 Speaker 1: States by people in El Salvador and other people, mostly 240 00:13:25,716 --> 00:13:30,596 Speaker 1: people who do direct gang intervention. Maybe immigration advocates would 241 00:13:30,636 --> 00:13:34,596 Speaker 1: tell you that actually there's very little organization and MS 242 00:13:34,636 --> 00:13:39,676 Speaker 1: thirteen functions like autonomous franchises, and there's almost no communication 243 00:13:39,716 --> 00:13:42,636 Speaker 1: with El Salvador. And it's hard to know what's true 244 00:13:43,036 --> 00:13:46,716 Speaker 1: because both sides sort of have an interest in arguing 245 00:13:46,796 --> 00:13:50,276 Speaker 1: for their version of how this gang is working, and 246 00:13:50,316 --> 00:13:51,836 Speaker 1: the gang's not going to come out and tell you. 247 00:13:52,516 --> 00:13:55,596 Speaker 1: So what I saw, at least on Long Island, there 248 00:13:55,676 --> 00:13:58,716 Speaker 1: is some communication with El Salvador, especially when it comes 249 00:13:58,796 --> 00:14:02,116 Speaker 1: to green lighting people. That's how the gang talks about 250 00:14:02,116 --> 00:14:05,036 Speaker 1: deciding to kill someone. So I saw that there is 251 00:14:05,116 --> 00:14:07,836 Speaker 1: communication when it comes to killing a fellow gang member 252 00:14:07,956 --> 00:14:10,476 Speaker 1: or figuring out if a gang is a snitch or not, 253 00:14:11,516 --> 00:14:13,956 Speaker 1: and that when it comes to other kinds of violence, 254 00:14:14,036 --> 00:14:17,756 Speaker 1: like going after the girls who are trash talking you 255 00:14:17,876 --> 00:14:21,036 Speaker 1: in the school hallway the other day, I didn't see 256 00:14:21,036 --> 00:14:24,076 Speaker 1: that there was much communication. I mean, it's fascinating you 257 00:14:24,156 --> 00:14:27,716 Speaker 1: are offering an account that it's potentially consistent with both stories, 258 00:14:27,956 --> 00:14:31,356 Speaker 1: with the FBI story and with the gang intervention story. 259 00:14:31,396 --> 00:14:34,196 Speaker 1: In other words, one could credibly say that there is 260 00:14:34,356 --> 00:14:37,076 Speaker 1: some kind of coordination if before you kill a fellow 261 00:14:37,076 --> 00:14:38,756 Speaker 1: gang member you have to get a green light from 262 00:14:39,636 --> 00:14:42,836 Speaker 1: someone in Elsalvador. But at the same time, most of 263 00:14:42,836 --> 00:14:46,076 Speaker 1: the activity is presumably not of that nature, and so 264 00:14:46,116 --> 00:14:48,356 Speaker 1: in that sense, it would be disorganized and uncoordinated and 265 00:14:48,356 --> 00:14:50,396 Speaker 1: happening at the local level, right. I mean, like with 266 00:14:50,516 --> 00:14:52,876 Speaker 1: so many of these super polarizing issues, the truth is 267 00:14:52,876 --> 00:14:56,276 Speaker 1: probably somewhere in the middle. And as far as what 268 00:14:56,316 --> 00:14:58,196 Speaker 1: we do about the violence that this gang is still 269 00:14:58,236 --> 00:15:00,836 Speaker 1: perpetrating in this country, one thing I think is important 270 00:15:00,836 --> 00:15:03,476 Speaker 1: to understand is that that violence isn't really growing. It 271 00:15:03,556 --> 00:15:05,636 Speaker 1: sort of goes in cycles. So the gang has been 272 00:15:05,636 --> 00:15:08,476 Speaker 1: the same size in this country for more than a 273 00:15:08,516 --> 00:15:11,956 Speaker 1: decade at about ten thousand people, which is less than 274 00:15:11,996 --> 00:15:15,076 Speaker 1: one percent of total gang members. And the violence that 275 00:15:15,116 --> 00:15:18,396 Speaker 1: they commit is really insane. I mean, it grabs headlines. 276 00:15:18,436 --> 00:15:21,396 Speaker 1: It's not like what other people are doing. But it's 277 00:15:21,396 --> 00:15:24,516 Speaker 1: still less than one percent of gang murders. And what 278 00:15:24,556 --> 00:15:27,316 Speaker 1: I saw is that it's really a local law enforcement issue. 279 00:15:28,076 --> 00:15:30,556 Speaker 1: When law enforcement was able to take down this gang, 280 00:15:30,636 --> 00:15:34,676 Speaker 1: it was mostly through the kind of sophisticated organized crime 281 00:15:35,236 --> 00:15:38,796 Speaker 1: strategies that take down other kinds of gangs. So it 282 00:15:38,876 --> 00:15:42,156 Speaker 1: wasn't about going to El Salvador and taking down like 283 00:15:42,476 --> 00:15:45,676 Speaker 1: the head of MS thirteen. It was about figuring out 284 00:15:45,716 --> 00:15:50,236 Speaker 1: who's in this gang in one town and finding reasons 285 00:15:50,236 --> 00:15:52,916 Speaker 1: to arrest them, and then flipping them on each other 286 00:15:53,076 --> 00:15:55,196 Speaker 1: and just sort of one by one, arresting everybody in 287 00:15:55,196 --> 00:15:57,356 Speaker 1: the gang so that they weren't out on the streets 288 00:15:57,356 --> 00:16:00,876 Speaker 1: committing murder and recruiting new people. Does that strike you 289 00:16:00,916 --> 00:16:04,196 Speaker 1: as an approach that would address their root cause as well, though, 290 00:16:04,316 --> 00:16:06,796 Speaker 1: or does it seem like it's more. In other words, 291 00:16:06,796 --> 00:16:08,916 Speaker 1: you can imagine you need to join strategy. If in 292 00:16:09,196 --> 00:16:12,556 Speaker 1: fact the gang is capable of sustaining itself at the 293 00:16:12,636 --> 00:16:15,356 Speaker 1: number of ten thousand in the US, then it must 294 00:16:15,356 --> 00:16:19,276 Speaker 1: be getting new members, and they're either American teenagers or 295 00:16:19,596 --> 00:16:23,476 Speaker 1: teenagers who's come into the country, or some combination. Right. Well, 296 00:16:23,836 --> 00:16:26,036 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't you would think that that's a 297 00:16:26,076 --> 00:16:29,676 Speaker 1: simple strategy, and if it worked, then we just wouldn't 298 00:16:29,716 --> 00:16:32,356 Speaker 1: have MS thirteen violence here. But it's not as simple 299 00:16:32,356 --> 00:16:34,796 Speaker 1: as you would think. For one thing, this is a 300 00:16:34,836 --> 00:16:39,156 Speaker 1: Spanish speaking gang and it's mostly composed of Latino people, 301 00:16:39,676 --> 00:16:42,436 Speaker 1: and a lot of these small town police forces have 302 00:16:42,676 --> 00:16:45,716 Speaker 1: very few Latino people who could infiltrate the gang and 303 00:16:45,756 --> 00:16:47,876 Speaker 1: don't speak Spanish. So this is a phenomenon that we 304 00:16:47,916 --> 00:16:50,396 Speaker 1: see all over the country, but it's very prevalent, for example, 305 00:16:50,396 --> 00:16:53,916 Speaker 1: on Long Island, where you have large Latino populations that 306 00:16:54,196 --> 00:16:57,276 Speaker 1: have come relatively recently in historical terms, and then you 307 00:16:57,316 --> 00:17:00,436 Speaker 1: have police forces that are made up of the people 308 00:17:00,476 --> 00:17:03,156 Speaker 1: who have been on Long Island for fifty or sixty years. 309 00:17:03,596 --> 00:17:05,876 Speaker 1: Great so on Long Island during the height of an 310 00:17:05,956 --> 00:17:10,076 Speaker 1: MS thirteen killing spree in twenty sixteen that was getting 311 00:17:10,156 --> 00:17:14,356 Speaker 1: national headlines. Trump got very fixated on this nice spree. 312 00:17:14,436 --> 00:17:17,596 Speaker 1: We're coming to him soon. The police force, which is 313 00:17:17,636 --> 00:17:19,596 Speaker 1: one of the biggest police forces in the country, had 314 00:17:19,676 --> 00:17:25,036 Speaker 1: three people who were certified to speak Spanish, and it's 315 00:17:25,076 --> 00:17:27,316 Speaker 1: just very hard to see how a police force like 316 00:17:27,356 --> 00:17:30,396 Speaker 1: that can effectively police this gang and protect the community 317 00:17:30,436 --> 00:17:32,916 Speaker 1: from the gang. And what ended up happening on Long 318 00:17:32,956 --> 00:17:36,956 Speaker 1: Island is the Long Island FBI Gang Task Force really 319 00:17:36,956 --> 00:17:40,276 Speaker 1: beefed off its presence and brought in FBI agents who 320 00:17:40,276 --> 00:17:43,636 Speaker 1: spoke Spanish and they were then able to pretty much 321 00:17:43,636 --> 00:17:45,676 Speaker 1: dismantle the gang out there. And we haven't had a 322 00:17:45,796 --> 00:17:48,476 Speaker 1: killing in almost a year. So it wasn't a pure 323 00:17:48,596 --> 00:17:50,636 Speaker 1: local law enforce and effort. It was local law enforcement 324 00:17:50,676 --> 00:17:53,396 Speaker 1: assisted by, in fact necessarily it sounds like assisted by 325 00:17:53,436 --> 00:17:57,476 Speaker 1: the FBI, right, But I mean, why why was that necessary? 326 00:17:57,756 --> 00:18:00,956 Speaker 1: You would think that a police force that is dealing 327 00:18:00,956 --> 00:18:03,556 Speaker 1: with a lot of immigrant people. Some of the towns 328 00:18:03,596 --> 00:18:06,276 Speaker 1: on Long Island are mostly immigrant, would be more equipped 329 00:18:06,356 --> 00:18:08,676 Speaker 1: to deal with those kinds of problems, for sure. I mean, 330 00:18:08,876 --> 00:18:11,156 Speaker 1: of course the police forces need to add, need to 331 00:18:11,156 --> 00:18:13,796 Speaker 1: have lots of Spanish speaking officers, but I do wonder 332 00:18:13,876 --> 00:18:16,716 Speaker 1: if I mean a small town police force isn't necessarily 333 00:18:16,716 --> 00:18:20,036 Speaker 1: equipped to handle major gang violence. Yeah, So, I mean 334 00:18:20,076 --> 00:18:22,396 Speaker 1: in this case, it worked pretty well. The FBI came 335 00:18:22,436 --> 00:18:25,076 Speaker 1: in and they really cleaned house, and they did it 336 00:18:25,196 --> 00:18:28,156 Speaker 1: by being on the ground in this community. And it 337 00:18:28,196 --> 00:18:32,116 Speaker 1: had almost nothing to do with the border. And that's 338 00:18:32,156 --> 00:18:34,356 Speaker 1: one thing that I hear a lot when people talk 339 00:18:34,356 --> 00:18:36,836 Speaker 1: about MS thirteen. There's this idea that we just need 340 00:18:36,876 --> 00:18:39,756 Speaker 1: to close the border or secure the border, and then 341 00:18:39,796 --> 00:18:41,996 Speaker 1: we'll be able to get rid of this gang. And 342 00:18:42,076 --> 00:18:46,196 Speaker 1: I think that really ignores the fact that the gang 343 00:18:46,276 --> 00:18:49,116 Speaker 1: was founded in the US and most of the people 344 00:18:49,156 --> 00:18:51,596 Speaker 1: who I've spoken with who are in the gang now 345 00:18:51,796 --> 00:18:56,276 Speaker 1: were recruited in the US. So the typical situation that 346 00:18:56,316 --> 00:19:00,316 Speaker 1: I saw was people would come over from Central America, 347 00:19:00,676 --> 00:19:03,396 Speaker 1: land in one of these towns like the suburbs of 348 00:19:03,396 --> 00:19:06,556 Speaker 1: New York or the suburbs of Virginia or LA and 349 00:19:06,716 --> 00:19:11,476 Speaker 1: not have a strong support system and get recruited in 350 00:19:11,516 --> 00:19:15,156 Speaker 1: an American high school or at an American McDonald's where 351 00:19:15,156 --> 00:19:18,436 Speaker 1: they were hanging out after school. So closing the border 352 00:19:18,676 --> 00:19:22,196 Speaker 1: doesn't do a lot to solve that. And FBI task 353 00:19:22,236 --> 00:19:24,636 Speaker 1: forces also don't really help with that. I think that's 354 00:19:24,636 --> 00:19:27,916 Speaker 1: something we need a different kind of program for. So 355 00:19:28,236 --> 00:19:33,276 Speaker 1: there's an anthropologist called Tom Ward who wrote a book 356 00:19:33,636 --> 00:19:36,156 Speaker 1: that's based on I think about a decade of field work, 357 00:19:36,156 --> 00:19:39,116 Speaker 1: fourteen years of field work. He says inside of some 358 00:19:39,156 --> 00:19:41,796 Speaker 1: parts of MS thirteen and it's periphery, and he called 359 00:19:41,836 --> 00:19:46,996 Speaker 1: the book Gangs Without Borders to emphasize the transnational nature 360 00:19:47,036 --> 00:19:50,076 Speaker 1: of the gang, that it goes across borders. And then 361 00:19:50,276 --> 00:19:52,236 Speaker 1: the opening paragraph of the book when you open it up, 362 00:19:52,276 --> 00:19:54,716 Speaker 1: is an apology for the title, which is very rare. 363 00:19:54,756 --> 00:19:56,116 Speaker 1: You know when you write, when you write a book, 364 00:19:56,196 --> 00:19:57,716 Speaker 1: you don't usually want to have to apologize for the 365 00:19:57,716 --> 00:19:59,156 Speaker 1: title of first thing out of the box. And he says, 366 00:19:59,156 --> 00:20:00,916 Speaker 1: you know, I don't want you to think, in hearing 367 00:20:00,956 --> 00:20:03,956 Speaker 1: this title, that we're talking about something like an international 368 00:20:03,996 --> 00:20:06,396 Speaker 1: terrorist organization. On the other hand, I am trying to 369 00:20:06,436 --> 00:20:09,396 Speaker 1: show you that the nature of moving between country has 370 00:20:09,436 --> 00:20:13,116 Speaker 1: been part of or significant to the experience of MS thirteen, 371 00:20:13,556 --> 00:20:15,716 Speaker 1: and I want to use that balance to try to 372 00:20:15,756 --> 00:20:20,236 Speaker 1: ask about this this point of the border closing. Clearly 373 00:20:20,356 --> 00:20:22,396 Speaker 1: we're thinking of this when we hear it because of 374 00:20:22,436 --> 00:20:25,756 Speaker 1: Donald Trump. Trump maybe he was influenced by the fact 375 00:20:25,756 --> 00:20:27,836 Speaker 1: that he's from Queens, which is part of Long Island, 376 00:20:27,916 --> 00:20:29,956 Speaker 1: and is aware of what's going on in the Long 377 00:20:29,996 --> 00:20:32,556 Speaker 1: Island world. And then this spike of murders in Long 378 00:20:32,596 --> 00:20:34,956 Speaker 1: Island that you described from MS thirteen happened around the 379 00:20:34,956 --> 00:20:39,556 Speaker 1: time that he was running for president, and he made 380 00:20:39,556 --> 00:20:42,756 Speaker 1: this a centerpiece of his rhetoric. And since part of 381 00:20:42,756 --> 00:20:45,276 Speaker 1: his run of the presence he was to emphasize closing 382 00:20:45,276 --> 00:20:49,076 Speaker 1: the border and the dangers of immigrants crossing the border, 383 00:20:49,076 --> 00:20:51,596 Speaker 1: and particularly of Central American immigrants crossing the borders, it 384 00:20:51,676 --> 00:20:53,996 Speaker 1: was sort of like a cause made to order for him. 385 00:20:54,116 --> 00:20:58,836 Speaker 1: What is the danger associated with thinking of border closings 386 00:20:58,836 --> 00:21:02,076 Speaker 1: as something that could reduce or cut down on MS thirteen? 387 00:21:02,076 --> 00:21:04,556 Speaker 1: You've made the case that it wouldn't work. But what's 388 00:21:04,556 --> 00:21:07,156 Speaker 1: the danger associated with saying, well, let's try Why don't 389 00:21:07,156 --> 00:21:10,556 Speaker 1: we try to do more work of deporting gang members 390 00:21:10,596 --> 00:21:13,076 Speaker 1: if they're not US citizens and trying to stop gang 391 00:21:13,116 --> 00:21:15,436 Speaker 1: members from coming in. Yeah, I mean, I do think 392 00:21:15,436 --> 00:21:18,196 Speaker 1: the fact that Trump is from Queens has a ton 393 00:21:18,276 --> 00:21:20,316 Speaker 1: to do with how focused he's been on this gang. 394 00:21:20,676 --> 00:21:24,236 Speaker 1: It's funny, there have been all of these there's been 395 00:21:24,236 --> 00:21:26,876 Speaker 1: all this violence on Long Island, and there's also been 396 00:21:26,916 --> 00:21:29,156 Speaker 1: all this MS thirteen violence in the suburbs of DC, 397 00:21:29,756 --> 00:21:32,716 Speaker 1: but Trump is so much more focused on what's going 398 00:21:32,756 --> 00:21:34,956 Speaker 1: on up in New York, even though he's technically closer 399 00:21:34,996 --> 00:21:38,556 Speaker 1: to what's going on like Virginia and Maryland, so those psychologically, 400 00:21:38,596 --> 00:21:41,916 Speaker 1: he's very much a product of the Long Island milia completely. 401 00:21:42,396 --> 00:21:46,916 Speaker 1: One danger of focusing on immigration enforcement when you're thinking 402 00:21:46,916 --> 00:21:49,636 Speaker 1: about how to get rid of MS thirteen is that 403 00:21:49,676 --> 00:21:53,116 Speaker 1: the same people who you need to be helping you 404 00:21:53,436 --> 00:21:56,236 Speaker 1: dismantle this gang, the same people who would be your informants, 405 00:21:56,796 --> 00:22:01,036 Speaker 1: are the people who might be targeted by harsher immigration enforcement. 406 00:22:01,636 --> 00:22:04,436 Speaker 1: So I saw this happen a few times on Long Island, 407 00:22:04,996 --> 00:22:09,076 Speaker 1: where young teenage boys who are involved with the gang 408 00:22:09,196 --> 00:22:11,756 Speaker 1: or adjacent to the gang when kid had been attacked 409 00:22:11,756 --> 00:22:16,836 Speaker 1: by the gang, were turned into FBI informants and started 410 00:22:16,876 --> 00:22:19,076 Speaker 1: working with police in the FBI to try to bring 411 00:22:19,116 --> 00:22:22,156 Speaker 1: down the kids who were torturing them, the gang members 412 00:22:22,156 --> 00:22:26,116 Speaker 1: who were in their community. And after a few months 413 00:22:26,596 --> 00:22:31,156 Speaker 1: they were turned over themselves to Ice for deportation. And 414 00:22:31,316 --> 00:22:34,556 Speaker 1: so one informant was locked up with the same people 415 00:22:34,596 --> 00:22:37,916 Speaker 1: who he'd been informing on and they knew that he 416 00:22:37,956 --> 00:22:40,476 Speaker 1: had been an informant and they started threatening his life. 417 00:22:40,836 --> 00:22:44,316 Speaker 1: That gets around if the people who try to help 418 00:22:44,396 --> 00:22:49,036 Speaker 1: law enforcement end up being arrested for deportation. People know that, 419 00:22:49,396 --> 00:22:53,596 Speaker 1: and they're much less likely to go to detectives and 420 00:22:53,756 --> 00:22:56,436 Speaker 1: help them. And this is a gang that's composed of 421 00:22:56,516 --> 00:22:59,236 Speaker 1: Latino teenagers, so it's already going to be hard for 422 00:22:59,396 --> 00:23:03,076 Speaker 1: US law enforcement to infiltrate it. And so when you 423 00:23:03,076 --> 00:23:06,756 Speaker 1: don't protect informants, that can really destroy an investigation. And 424 00:23:06,836 --> 00:23:10,636 Speaker 1: I had detectives from the FBI Gang Task Force and 425 00:23:10,836 --> 00:23:13,756 Speaker 1: local police complaining to me about this. Is it that 426 00:23:14,156 --> 00:23:17,916 Speaker 1: the minute you start thinking about deportations, you're inevitably going 427 00:23:17,956 --> 00:23:20,956 Speaker 1: to alienate the people who might work with the government 428 00:23:21,236 --> 00:23:24,316 Speaker 1: to fight the gang. Or is it that the government, 429 00:23:25,036 --> 00:23:29,596 Speaker 1: ice and others just do it badly? In your fascinating 430 00:23:29,596 --> 00:23:32,476 Speaker 1: and rich reporting, often it seemed as though it was 431 00:23:32,516 --> 00:23:37,396 Speaker 1: the incompetence of the enforcement system that was causing the problems. 432 00:23:37,436 --> 00:23:39,276 Speaker 1: You know that someone who was helping the FBI would 433 00:23:39,676 --> 00:23:42,556 Speaker 1: get on a list and then someone would bureacratically say well, 434 00:23:42,676 --> 00:23:44,156 Speaker 1: now they're on the list and we can't get them off. 435 00:23:44,156 --> 00:23:46,276 Speaker 1: The list, and then that would lead to a deportation. 436 00:23:46,316 --> 00:23:48,036 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm over characterizing it, but you know what 437 00:23:48,076 --> 00:23:51,036 Speaker 1: I'm talking about. And then when I read that, my 438 00:23:51,076 --> 00:23:52,756 Speaker 1: instinct was to say, well, they have to do it better. 439 00:23:52,996 --> 00:23:54,796 Speaker 1: They have to be more careful and make sure that 440 00:23:54,836 --> 00:23:57,196 Speaker 1: if someone is helping the government, that person doesn't get 441 00:23:57,276 --> 00:23:59,996 Speaker 1: deported and doesn't get put into these categories. So that 442 00:24:00,036 --> 00:24:03,716 Speaker 1: would be an argument not so much for taking this 443 00:24:03,876 --> 00:24:08,196 Speaker 1: out of the deportation and border's frame as for staying 444 00:24:08,196 --> 00:24:10,636 Speaker 1: in that frame, but doing it in a much more 445 00:24:10,716 --> 00:24:14,756 Speaker 1: sophisticated and successful way. Or the alternative view I guess 446 00:24:14,796 --> 00:24:17,396 Speaker 1: would be that no, the minute you go into that 447 00:24:17,436 --> 00:24:20,036 Speaker 1: frame at all, you're going to alienate people and you're 448 00:24:20,036 --> 00:24:21,356 Speaker 1: not going to be able to fight the gang. Do 449 00:24:21,356 --> 00:24:24,476 Speaker 1: you have an instinct between those versions? Yeah, I mean, 450 00:24:24,516 --> 00:24:26,436 Speaker 1: in some ways it's above my pay grade, Like I 451 00:24:26,516 --> 00:24:29,916 Speaker 1: have the nice job of being able to critique policy 452 00:24:29,916 --> 00:24:32,796 Speaker 1: and I don't have to make it. But I do 453 00:24:32,916 --> 00:24:36,756 Speaker 1: think that some people need to be deported. I don't 454 00:24:36,756 --> 00:24:41,116 Speaker 1: think anybody would disagree that some of these really hardcore 455 00:24:41,316 --> 00:24:44,716 Speaker 1: MS thirteen killers who've stuck into this country illegally and 456 00:24:44,756 --> 00:24:47,796 Speaker 1: are doing lots of damage here shouldn't be protected at all. 457 00:24:48,156 --> 00:24:52,316 Speaker 1: Some of these people are to me, they really seem irredeemable, 458 00:24:52,476 --> 00:24:55,676 Speaker 1: and I'm glad that law enforcement gets them off of 459 00:24:55,676 --> 00:24:59,596 Speaker 1: the streets. What I saw a lot of in the 460 00:24:59,636 --> 00:25:01,756 Speaker 1: first two years of the Trump administration was sort of 461 00:25:01,796 --> 00:25:06,036 Speaker 1: a rush to get more MS thirteen arrests. There was 462 00:25:06,236 --> 00:25:08,676 Speaker 1: I make the numbers as it were, right, right, So 463 00:25:08,716 --> 00:25:11,316 Speaker 1: there is a pressure internally to get those numbers up, 464 00:25:12,036 --> 00:25:15,876 Speaker 1: and there was also pressure to get the proportion of 465 00:25:15,996 --> 00:25:20,956 Speaker 1: criminal arrests versus administrative arrests up. That's a little tricky 466 00:25:21,116 --> 00:25:25,276 Speaker 1: to understand. Basically, you can arrest somebody just for being 467 00:25:25,316 --> 00:25:28,996 Speaker 1: an immigrant here without papers, or you can arrest somebody 468 00:25:28,996 --> 00:25:32,116 Speaker 1: because they've committed a crime and they're here without papers. Yes, 469 00:25:32,436 --> 00:25:34,836 Speaker 1: so the Trump administration wanted to say they were going 470 00:25:34,876 --> 00:25:38,676 Speaker 1: after more what they call criminal aliens, which, by the way, 471 00:25:38,756 --> 00:25:40,716 Speaker 1: to be fair, is also a continuation of the Obama 472 00:25:40,716 --> 00:25:44,236 Speaker 1: administration's policy. I mean, the Obama aministration really emphasized that 473 00:25:44,276 --> 00:25:47,036 Speaker 1: it was going to arrest large, large numbers of undocumented 474 00:25:47,036 --> 00:25:49,116 Speaker 1: people and support them. They just said they would focus 475 00:25:49,196 --> 00:25:51,876 Speaker 1: on people who had committed crimes, and in fact, that's 476 00:25:51,876 --> 00:25:53,796 Speaker 1: one of the reasons that many immigration out of it 477 00:25:53,836 --> 00:25:56,116 Speaker 1: gates were very before Donald Trump were very angry at 478 00:25:56,156 --> 00:26:00,036 Speaker 1: Barack Obama because he deported. His administration deported much much 479 00:26:00,156 --> 00:26:03,916 Speaker 1: higher percentages and much much higher raw numbers of undocumented 480 00:26:03,916 --> 00:26:07,596 Speaker 1: people than prior administrations, including the Bush administration. Yeah, I mean, 481 00:26:07,636 --> 00:26:09,916 Speaker 1: now we're deep in the weeds of im gratian coverage. 482 00:26:09,916 --> 00:26:13,156 Speaker 1: But that's a really key thing because Obama was going 483 00:26:13,196 --> 00:26:16,236 Speaker 1: after Okay, shows called deep back, but we gotta go 484 00:26:16,276 --> 00:26:19,236 Speaker 1: deep Okay, great, So here you have Obama, he's mostly 485 00:26:19,276 --> 00:26:22,836 Speaker 1: going after criminal immigrants. Trump comes in. He just wants 486 00:26:23,036 --> 00:26:27,316 Speaker 1: bigger deportation numbers, so they start going after non criminal immigrants. 487 00:26:27,356 --> 00:26:31,076 Speaker 1: They start going after anybody they can find, basically, and 488 00:26:31,116 --> 00:26:34,116 Speaker 1: so the numbers get very skewed. Suddenly it looks like 489 00:26:34,156 --> 00:26:37,116 Speaker 1: they're not arresting any criminals because they're arresting so many 490 00:26:37,396 --> 00:26:40,196 Speaker 1: of the other kind of people who haven't committed crimes, 491 00:26:40,356 --> 00:26:42,396 Speaker 1: who have to all the way also be detained by 492 00:26:42,436 --> 00:26:45,596 Speaker 1: the way, So there's actually a literal space issue right right, 493 00:26:45,636 --> 00:26:48,996 Speaker 1: and resources, I mean, ICE agents are like running around 494 00:26:49,156 --> 00:26:52,356 Speaker 1: arresting anybody they can find. And so the idea was 495 00:26:52,476 --> 00:26:56,036 Speaker 1: if they start tagging more people as MS their team members. 496 00:26:56,276 --> 00:26:57,916 Speaker 1: That's going to make the numbers look a lot better. 497 00:26:58,036 --> 00:27:01,116 Speaker 1: Suddenly you're going to have more criminal immigrant arrests, which 498 00:27:01,156 --> 00:27:03,476 Speaker 1: is what you want. What I saw on Long Island 499 00:27:03,916 --> 00:27:09,716 Speaker 1: was suddenly almost anything getting adjacent could get you tagged 500 00:27:09,756 --> 00:27:13,196 Speaker 1: as an MS thirteen member in ICE's eyes. So what 501 00:27:13,316 --> 00:27:16,916 Speaker 1: happened was there was this Operation Matador initiative, and that 502 00:27:17,076 --> 00:27:22,196 Speaker 1: was a program designed specifically to find MS thirteen members 503 00:27:22,236 --> 00:27:26,676 Speaker 1: around New York State and arrest them for deportation. So 504 00:27:27,116 --> 00:27:31,596 Speaker 1: in the spring of twenty seventeen, people started to get 505 00:27:31,596 --> 00:27:35,596 Speaker 1: tagged as gang members for being in the same park 506 00:27:35,716 --> 00:27:40,956 Speaker 1: as gang members or wearing blue Nike sneakers. I wrote 507 00:27:40,956 --> 00:27:43,756 Speaker 1: about one kid who drew a devil in his school 508 00:27:43,796 --> 00:27:47,396 Speaker 1: notebook and was tagged as a gang member for that reason, 509 00:27:48,356 --> 00:27:51,756 Speaker 1: and because that's a symbol of the gang. Well, right, 510 00:27:51,836 --> 00:27:54,116 Speaker 1: so that longle of the gang it also happened to 511 00:27:54,156 --> 00:27:57,836 Speaker 1: be his high school mascot. People started staying home from school, 512 00:27:57,916 --> 00:28:01,636 Speaker 1: they started staying inside. These immigrant communities are very close knit, 513 00:28:01,676 --> 00:28:04,516 Speaker 1: and words spread very quickly that anybody is being tagged 514 00:28:04,516 --> 00:28:07,556 Speaker 1: as a gang member right now. And what the people 515 00:28:07,596 --> 00:28:09,956 Speaker 1: who lived in these places told me that at first 516 00:28:09,996 --> 00:28:12,876 Speaker 1: they thought, oh, that kid seemed fine, but I guess 517 00:28:12,956 --> 00:28:14,596 Speaker 1: he must have been a gang member because he just 518 00:28:14,636 --> 00:28:17,996 Speaker 1: got arrested. And people were hopeful at first because they 519 00:28:18,036 --> 00:28:20,756 Speaker 1: were very scared of this gang, and then they started 520 00:28:20,796 --> 00:28:24,636 Speaker 1: to realize no, a lot of these arrests are basically pretexts. 521 00:28:25,676 --> 00:28:29,356 Speaker 1: Ice touted this as a wonderful initiative to rid the 522 00:28:29,356 --> 00:28:33,756 Speaker 1: community of MS thirteen and finally arrest criminal immigrants, but 523 00:28:34,036 --> 00:28:36,796 Speaker 1: in reality, a lot of those people were eventually let 524 00:28:36,796 --> 00:28:38,796 Speaker 1: go because they had nothing to do with the gang. 525 00:28:39,556 --> 00:28:42,396 Speaker 1: What has it been like for you to talk to 526 00:28:43,076 --> 00:28:45,876 Speaker 1: I guess mostly teenagers. It sounds like who are who 527 00:28:45,916 --> 00:28:48,396 Speaker 1: have been either purple to the gang or in the gang? 528 00:28:48,596 --> 00:28:51,316 Speaker 1: How do you what prepared you to go in and 529 00:28:51,316 --> 00:28:53,436 Speaker 1: actually talk to people and hear these hear these things? 530 00:28:54,116 --> 00:28:58,276 Speaker 1: I mean, I felt very unprepared. I spoke fine Spanish. 531 00:28:58,316 --> 00:29:00,036 Speaker 1: I learned a lot of gang slag over the course 532 00:29:00,036 --> 00:29:02,516 Speaker 1: of this reporting. Like when you text message with these kids, 533 00:29:02,556 --> 00:29:05,756 Speaker 1: they write in this almost incomprehensible language. I had to 534 00:29:05,756 --> 00:29:09,196 Speaker 1: make myself a glossary, but I had been reported in 535 00:29:10,156 --> 00:29:13,636 Speaker 1: all teenagers just not that is very true. They're also 536 00:29:13,716 --> 00:29:16,556 Speaker 1: very into snapchat, which I didn't understand before I started 537 00:29:16,596 --> 00:29:19,436 Speaker 1: this reporting, But that doesn't quite get to the human level. 538 00:29:19,436 --> 00:29:21,276 Speaker 1: I mean, how did you get kids to open up 539 00:29:21,316 --> 00:29:24,516 Speaker 1: to you. I think it probably goes back to how 540 00:29:24,556 --> 00:29:27,276 Speaker 1: isolated kids are who joined this gang. The people who 541 00:29:27,316 --> 00:29:29,716 Speaker 1: I talked to told me that they felt very lonely 542 00:29:30,276 --> 00:29:35,836 Speaker 1: and like nobody understood them. Their own parents were absent 543 00:29:36,276 --> 00:29:39,836 Speaker 1: or didn't want to admit maybe what had happened with 544 00:29:39,836 --> 00:29:42,276 Speaker 1: this gang and their kids on Long Island or back 545 00:29:42,316 --> 00:29:45,676 Speaker 1: home in El Salvador. And so some of the people 546 00:29:45,676 --> 00:29:48,236 Speaker 1: I talked to when I first started speaking with them, 547 00:29:48,276 --> 00:29:50,276 Speaker 1: they just sort of I would ask them one question 548 00:29:50,356 --> 00:29:52,516 Speaker 1: and they would just go I would ask one question, 549 00:29:52,556 --> 00:29:55,156 Speaker 1: they would talk for an hour. I think they really 550 00:29:55,196 --> 00:29:58,356 Speaker 1: wanted somebody to understand what was happening with them and 551 00:29:58,596 --> 00:30:02,036 Speaker 1: listen to them without judgment, which I think is something 552 00:30:02,076 --> 00:30:05,676 Speaker 1: that journalists always need to do by other adults in 553 00:30:05,676 --> 00:30:09,516 Speaker 1: their lives, like teachers or their parents. The police wouldn't 554 00:30:09,516 --> 00:30:12,476 Speaker 1: do with them. And once I started talking to a 555 00:30:12,516 --> 00:30:15,076 Speaker 1: couple of kids, they started introducing me to their friends. 556 00:30:15,236 --> 00:30:18,236 Speaker 1: I started understanding how people were networked to each other 557 00:30:18,276 --> 00:30:20,756 Speaker 1: out there, and so then I was able to talk 558 00:30:20,796 --> 00:30:23,316 Speaker 1: to them in a way that I think was probably 559 00:30:23,356 --> 00:30:25,676 Speaker 1: less exhausting for them, Like they didn't have to explain 560 00:30:25,836 --> 00:30:31,036 Speaker 1: who Piro sans, this gang leader and ladies man out 561 00:30:31,076 --> 00:30:32,916 Speaker 1: there was. I already knew, and I knew who all 562 00:30:32,956 --> 00:30:35,996 Speaker 1: his friends were. I had maps drawn up in my 563 00:30:36,036 --> 00:30:38,596 Speaker 1: office of how everybody was connected to each other and 564 00:30:38,596 --> 00:30:41,916 Speaker 1: who everybody was. You mentioned that you think it's important 565 00:30:41,916 --> 00:30:44,596 Speaker 1: for a journalist to listen without judgment. I want, what 566 00:30:44,636 --> 00:30:47,636 Speaker 1: I'm wondering is how hard is that? How hard is 567 00:30:47,676 --> 00:30:51,756 Speaker 1: it to listen to somebody describing maybe brutal acts and 568 00:30:51,796 --> 00:30:54,316 Speaker 1: to withhold judgment. I don't think you mean with whole judgment. Ultimately, 569 00:30:54,316 --> 00:30:56,116 Speaker 1: when you write your story, you can you tell your 570 00:30:56,116 --> 00:30:58,236 Speaker 1: story and there can be some implicit judgment in that, 571 00:30:58,396 --> 00:31:00,316 Speaker 1: But when you're sitting there, I take it you meant 572 00:31:00,676 --> 00:31:02,716 Speaker 1: you have to withhold judgment to be an effective journalist 573 00:31:02,796 --> 00:31:06,436 Speaker 1: to get the story. How hard is that to do? Yeah? 574 00:31:06,516 --> 00:31:10,916 Speaker 1: I mean the story really pushed the boundaries of how 575 00:31:10,996 --> 00:31:13,916 Speaker 1: much I was able to empathize with people. I felt 576 00:31:13,916 --> 00:31:15,796 Speaker 1: it talking to gang members, and I also felt it 577 00:31:15,836 --> 00:31:18,236 Speaker 1: talking to the police. I thought it was really important 578 00:31:18,316 --> 00:31:22,996 Speaker 1: to be as empathetic as I could be. With both 579 00:31:23,036 --> 00:31:26,996 Speaker 1: sides of the story here. So I talked to police 580 00:31:27,036 --> 00:31:30,516 Speaker 1: homicide detectives who told me that when a kid like 581 00:31:30,596 --> 00:31:32,516 Speaker 1: the fifteen year old I was talking about who ended 582 00:31:32,596 --> 00:31:34,636 Speaker 1: up in the woods gets killed, they call it misdemeanor 583 00:31:34,716 --> 00:31:36,956 Speaker 1: murder because I feel like he probably had it coming 584 00:31:36,996 --> 00:31:38,876 Speaker 1: for some reason. He was probably going to end up 585 00:31:38,876 --> 00:31:41,716 Speaker 1: dead no matter what. They would. Yeah, they would say 586 00:31:41,756 --> 00:31:44,476 Speaker 1: things about people whose mothers I had spent time with, 587 00:31:44,516 --> 00:31:47,836 Speaker 1: whose diaries I had read. In the end, I think 588 00:31:47,876 --> 00:31:50,036 Speaker 1: I was able to understand why they were saying things 589 00:31:50,036 --> 00:31:52,356 Speaker 1: like that. I think they just felt really frustrated by 590 00:31:52,396 --> 00:31:55,356 Speaker 1: their inability to solve these crimes and stop these murders, 591 00:31:55,356 --> 00:31:58,196 Speaker 1: and they were trying to protect themselves by coming in 592 00:31:58,276 --> 00:32:01,316 Speaker 1: and just being very callous and with the gang members. 593 00:32:01,316 --> 00:32:04,076 Speaker 1: They would tell me about violence that was so horrifying. 594 00:32:04,116 --> 00:32:06,796 Speaker 1: I didn't put most of it in the stories, just 595 00:32:06,876 --> 00:32:10,756 Speaker 1: because I think it would have distracted back. Yeah, some 596 00:32:10,876 --> 00:32:14,916 Speaker 1: of the most perverse things people told me about doing 597 00:32:14,996 --> 00:32:17,996 Speaker 1: I didn't put in there. I did try to get 598 00:32:18,236 --> 00:32:20,996 Speaker 1: very high up whenever somebody told me that they had 599 00:32:20,996 --> 00:32:24,356 Speaker 1: committed violence. Like the first story in the series starts 600 00:32:24,356 --> 00:32:26,676 Speaker 1: with the main character killing a person in cold blood, 601 00:32:26,876 --> 00:32:30,476 Speaker 1: and I didn't want to hide that, but some of 602 00:32:30,516 --> 00:32:33,756 Speaker 1: the things they told me about doing it just felt 603 00:32:33,796 --> 00:32:36,116 Speaker 1: like it would be gratuitous to put in there. It 604 00:32:36,156 --> 00:32:38,636 Speaker 1: seems like such a delicate, delicate balance. I'm reminded a 605 00:32:38,676 --> 00:32:43,316 Speaker 1: little bit of the novelist Don Winslow's written this Cartel trilogy. 606 00:32:43,436 --> 00:32:45,916 Speaker 1: That is actually how I first learned about MS thirteen. 607 00:32:45,996 --> 00:32:48,156 Speaker 1: I mean, it's these are novels, but they're they're well 608 00:32:48,196 --> 00:32:50,796 Speaker 1: done novels. They're they're sort of very close to the 609 00:32:50,876 --> 00:32:53,996 Speaker 1: John McCarry level when they're at their best. In the novels, 610 00:32:54,396 --> 00:32:56,876 Speaker 1: very brutal act of violence that are, according to Winslow, 611 00:32:56,916 --> 00:33:00,676 Speaker 1: based on real things that occurred, are described in very 612 00:33:00,676 --> 00:33:04,436 Speaker 1: you know, clinical terms. And yet as Donald Trump began 613 00:33:04,476 --> 00:33:06,916 Speaker 1: to speak about MS thirteen as this great danger, Winslow 614 00:33:06,996 --> 00:33:12,396 Speaker 1: began to write public opinion pieces and op eds saying, look, 615 00:33:12,876 --> 00:33:15,436 Speaker 1: you know, I know a lot about these guys, and 616 00:33:16,036 --> 00:33:19,556 Speaker 1: what Trump is saying is unjustified and wrong, even though 617 00:33:19,636 --> 00:33:22,476 Speaker 1: in fact the acts of violence are horrific. So there's 618 00:33:22,516 --> 00:33:28,196 Speaker 1: this very complicated balance between acknowledging the terribleness of the 619 00:33:28,236 --> 00:33:31,836 Speaker 1: things that MS thirteen does and not giving in to 620 00:33:31,956 --> 00:33:36,876 Speaker 1: the temptation to demonize people who are themselves self demonizing, right. 621 00:33:36,876 --> 00:33:39,436 Speaker 1: I mean, like Winslow says, there's a lot of different 622 00:33:39,436 --> 00:33:43,116 Speaker 1: ways to be a terrible and basically evil organization. MS 623 00:33:43,116 --> 00:33:48,956 Speaker 1: thirteen is horrible and indefensible in some very troubling ways, 624 00:33:49,076 --> 00:33:52,436 Speaker 1: but not in all of the ways that Donald Trump 625 00:33:52,436 --> 00:33:56,516 Speaker 1: would like to say. So it's an organization that commits 626 00:33:56,516 --> 00:34:00,436 Speaker 1: horrible murder. It's not an organization that is organized across 627 00:34:00,436 --> 00:34:04,716 Speaker 1: the country and invading peaceful suburbs in the way that 628 00:34:04,876 --> 00:34:08,076 Speaker 1: politicians talk about. And you say that even though in 629 00:34:08,116 --> 00:34:11,036 Speaker 1: your stories you just gbe a spike in murders in 630 00:34:11,076 --> 00:34:13,916 Speaker 1: a peaceful Long Island suburbs. Right, there was a spike 631 00:34:13,956 --> 00:34:16,156 Speaker 1: in violence in Long Island. But that's a spike that 632 00:34:16,236 --> 00:34:19,396 Speaker 1: you see every couple of years, going back to two thousand, 633 00:34:19,676 --> 00:34:23,676 Speaker 1: two thousand and one. It's not anything that really has 634 00:34:24,036 --> 00:34:27,316 Speaker 1: it's it's nothing new. I mean, make it less shocking 635 00:34:27,356 --> 00:34:29,556 Speaker 1: in some sense. I mean, it's a crime. I don't 636 00:34:29,556 --> 00:34:35,516 Speaker 1: want to normalize murder spikes in anywhere, suburbs or inner city. 637 00:34:35,836 --> 00:34:38,396 Speaker 1: Right when Chicago underwent you know, a big spike in 638 00:34:38,836 --> 00:34:43,076 Speaker 1: gun violence in recent recent years. That's urban and it's 639 00:34:43,076 --> 00:34:44,916 Speaker 1: happened occasionally in the past as well, but we don't 640 00:34:44,916 --> 00:34:46,836 Speaker 1: want to normalize it by virtual the fact that it's 641 00:34:46,876 --> 00:34:49,316 Speaker 1: that it's happened before. No, what I mean, really, the 642 00:34:49,436 --> 00:34:54,596 Speaker 1: victims of MS thirteen violence are young Latino immigrants. There 643 00:34:54,596 --> 00:34:58,476 Speaker 1: should be more effort to protect those people completely. But 644 00:34:58,796 --> 00:35:01,316 Speaker 1: I think they would the victims of this gang, and 645 00:35:01,356 --> 00:35:03,396 Speaker 1: the people who work most closely with the gang would 646 00:35:03,436 --> 00:35:08,076 Speaker 1: tell you that having a national panic about MS thirteen 647 00:35:08,156 --> 00:35:10,516 Speaker 1: legs used to our suburbs is not the way to 648 00:35:10,596 --> 00:35:14,156 Speaker 1: really protect the victims. I want to sort of close 649 00:35:14,196 --> 00:35:17,316 Speaker 1: by asking you about the imagination. About the imagination in 650 00:35:17,356 --> 00:35:19,156 Speaker 1: both directions here. So on the one hand, there's the 651 00:35:19,196 --> 00:35:23,436 Speaker 1: imagination of the MS thirteen members themselves. They're trying to 652 00:35:23,476 --> 00:35:27,476 Speaker 1: create an imaginary universe where they are terrifying, where they 653 00:35:27,476 --> 00:35:30,076 Speaker 1: are empowered, where they're capable of engaging in these acts 654 00:35:30,076 --> 00:35:34,716 Speaker 1: of spectacular violence. And then somehow they did capture the 655 00:35:34,756 --> 00:35:37,116 Speaker 1: imagination of a lot of people in the American public. 656 00:35:37,116 --> 00:35:39,036 Speaker 1: They capture the imagination of a guy who was candidate 657 00:35:39,076 --> 00:35:41,796 Speaker 1: for president United States and then got elected, and then 658 00:35:41,796 --> 00:35:44,956 Speaker 1: suddenly there he is in Congress at the State of 659 00:35:44,996 --> 00:35:49,156 Speaker 1: the Union address talking about them and how uniquely bad 660 00:35:49,356 --> 00:35:51,956 Speaker 1: and dangerous they are. But there's some connection between the 661 00:35:51,996 --> 00:35:55,636 Speaker 1: two imaginations. It's like the imagination of the gang members 662 00:35:56,276 --> 00:35:58,756 Speaker 1: is one circle and the imagination of Donald Trump is 663 00:35:58,756 --> 00:36:02,396 Speaker 1: another circle, and somehow they're merging together in this overlapping 664 00:36:02,436 --> 00:36:05,636 Speaker 1: then diagram of imaginaries. First all, does that story make 665 00:36:05,676 --> 00:36:07,876 Speaker 1: sense to you? Does that sound plausible as an account 666 00:36:07,876 --> 00:36:10,756 Speaker 1: of what's going on? And if so, what are we 667 00:36:10,836 --> 00:36:12,356 Speaker 1: to make of it? How should we think about this 668 00:36:12,436 --> 00:36:15,596 Speaker 1: going forward? Totally? I mean it's like a showy gang 669 00:36:15,676 --> 00:36:20,916 Speaker 1: meets a great showman and it's it's been a beautiful 670 00:36:20,956 --> 00:36:23,956 Speaker 1: marriage for both of them. I think Trump has gotten 671 00:36:23,996 --> 00:36:28,036 Speaker 1: lots of mileage out of this gang, and MS thirteen 672 00:36:28,796 --> 00:36:32,316 Speaker 1: is also getting a lot of benefit. I mean, this 673 00:36:32,356 --> 00:36:34,676 Speaker 1: is a gang that wants everybody to be scared of them. 674 00:36:34,836 --> 00:36:37,636 Speaker 1: People are very scared right now, and they haven't had 675 00:36:37,676 --> 00:36:39,996 Speaker 1: to do much to earn that. I think what gets 676 00:36:39,996 --> 00:36:42,596 Speaker 1: lost is the victims. How are you going to fight 677 00:36:42,636 --> 00:36:45,876 Speaker 1: a gang if you don't understand the gang? And right 678 00:36:45,916 --> 00:36:48,396 Speaker 1: now there are so many myths being peddled about what 679 00:36:48,556 --> 00:36:53,636 Speaker 1: MS thirteen is, by the gang and by national politicians, 680 00:36:53,956 --> 00:36:58,636 Speaker 1: and who's losing there are young immigrants who are getting 681 00:36:58,836 --> 00:37:02,756 Speaker 1: slaughtered and who are not being protected by local police. Hannah, 682 00:37:02,836 --> 00:37:05,196 Speaker 1: I want to thank you not just for a great interview, 683 00:37:05,236 --> 00:37:11,476 Speaker 1: but also for really doing work that manages simultaneously to 684 00:37:11,476 --> 00:37:14,436 Speaker 1: tell the story as it's happening and as it has happened, 685 00:37:15,436 --> 00:37:18,116 Speaker 1: and not to play down the violence while simultaneously not 686 00:37:18,196 --> 00:37:21,636 Speaker 1: sensationalizing it. And if other people are criticizing you for 687 00:37:21,916 --> 00:37:24,636 Speaker 1: that middle ground, let me be someone to say, good job. 688 00:37:25,396 --> 00:37:27,916 Speaker 1: That's exactly the kind of work that's beneficial to I 689 00:37:27,956 --> 00:37:29,596 Speaker 1: think to thinking about hard problems like this. Thank you 690 00:37:29,636 --> 00:37:31,436 Speaker 1: so much for joining us. Oh well, thank you. It 691 00:37:31,516 --> 00:37:33,516 Speaker 1: is a tight ramp, and I appreciate you saying that, 692 00:37:33,796 --> 00:37:42,236 Speaker 1: thank you for walking out with us. Making sense of 693 00:37:42,396 --> 00:37:46,996 Speaker 1: MS thirteen really demands hard work because you have to 694 00:37:47,076 --> 00:37:50,116 Speaker 1: keep two different ideas in your mind at the same time, 695 00:37:50,316 --> 00:37:53,236 Speaker 1: and those things are intentional with each other. The first 696 00:37:53,356 --> 00:37:56,996 Speaker 1: is that MS thirteen isn't just any gang. It's a 697 00:37:57,036 --> 00:38:02,036 Speaker 1: particularly vicious and violent gang that focuses on violence for 698 00:38:02,156 --> 00:38:06,036 Speaker 1: violence's sake and commits horrific acts not only here in 699 00:38:06,036 --> 00:38:09,556 Speaker 1: the United States but in Central America. It's also a 700 00:38:09,556 --> 00:38:13,276 Speaker 1: transnational gang. When that crosses borders and that sees itself 701 00:38:13,276 --> 00:38:15,316 Speaker 1: as a nation on its own, and that makes it 702 00:38:15,476 --> 00:38:19,276 Speaker 1: especially frightening. At the same time, you also have to 703 00:38:19,356 --> 00:38:22,516 Speaker 1: keep in your mind that Donald Trump has, through his rhetoric, 704 00:38:22,836 --> 00:38:25,796 Speaker 1: made MS thirteen into a much grander, bigger, and more 705 00:38:25,876 --> 00:38:29,436 Speaker 1: significant threat than in fact may be in real life. 706 00:38:29,996 --> 00:38:33,876 Speaker 1: He's used MS thirteen as a tool to emphasize the 707 00:38:33,956 --> 00:38:37,356 Speaker 1: idea that we should close our borders, including closing our 708 00:38:37,396 --> 00:38:39,876 Speaker 1: borders to people who are fleeing gangs like m S 709 00:38:39,916 --> 00:38:42,676 Speaker 1: thirteen from Central America. What I took away from my 710 00:38:42,716 --> 00:38:45,956 Speaker 1: conversation with Hannah is that it actually is possible if 711 00:38:45,956 --> 00:38:48,836 Speaker 1: you're very careful and work hard to keep both of 712 00:38:48,836 --> 00:38:52,836 Speaker 1: those ideas in mind simultaneously. She's not pulling any punches 713 00:38:53,236 --> 00:38:56,116 Speaker 1: in describing the depth and the horror of violence that 714 00:38:56,316 --> 00:38:59,796 Speaker 1: m S thirteen engages in. At the same time, she's 715 00:38:59,796 --> 00:39:02,836 Speaker 1: an unrelenting critic of how the attempt to crack down 716 00:39:02,876 --> 00:39:05,396 Speaker 1: on MS thirteen in the aftermath of Donald Trump's election 717 00:39:05,676 --> 00:39:08,996 Speaker 1: has actually led to tragedy in the lives of ordinary 718 00:39:09,116 --> 00:39:11,476 Speaker 1: people who were not guilty of anything, and made it 719 00:39:11,556 --> 00:39:14,116 Speaker 1: harder in the long run to fight this horrific gang 720 00:39:14,436 --> 00:39:17,796 Speaker 1: getting behind this story shows you that the imagination is 721 00:39:17,796 --> 00:39:22,036 Speaker 1: an extraordinary thing. The imagination of MS thirteen has met 722 00:39:22,076 --> 00:39:25,276 Speaker 1: the imagination of Donald Trump, and Hannah says. It's a 723 00:39:25,316 --> 00:39:29,676 Speaker 1: beautiful marriage that served the interests of both sides in 724 00:39:29,716 --> 00:39:31,876 Speaker 1: the long run. If we're going to fight MS thirteen 725 00:39:32,116 --> 00:39:35,516 Speaker 1: and not go overboard, we need to disrupt that marriage. 726 00:39:35,596 --> 00:39:39,396 Speaker 1: We need to disentangle those two imaginations. We need facts 727 00:39:39,396 --> 00:39:42,836 Speaker 1: to understand what we should do about MS thirteen, not fantasies. 728 00:39:47,636 --> 00:39:50,596 Speaker 1: Deep Background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our 729 00:39:50,596 --> 00:39:53,676 Speaker 1: producer is Lydia Geane Coott, with engineering by Jason Gambrell 730 00:39:53,876 --> 00:39:57,636 Speaker 1: and Jason Rostkowski. Our showrunner is Sophie mckibbon. Our theme 731 00:39:57,716 --> 00:40:00,516 Speaker 1: music is composed by Luis Gara. Special thanks to the 732 00:40:00,516 --> 00:40:04,636 Speaker 1: Pushkin Brass, Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, and Mia Lobel. I'm 733 00:40:04,676 --> 00:40:07,956 Speaker 1: Noah Feldman. You can follow me on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. 734 00:40:08,316 --> 00:40:09,676 Speaker 1: This is Deep Background.