1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger. 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: On the side, we are two working parents who love 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:37,160 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode two hundred and seventy nine, 11 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: first airing in early December of twenty twenty two. Sarah 12 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 1: is going to be interviewing one of the authors of 13 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: The No Club, which is a fascinating book about women 14 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: letting go of non promotable tasks. You talk a little 15 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: bit about that, Sarah. Yeah, this was a fascinating interview 16 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: for me because I definitely felt like this book was 17 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: written for me in not just me, but people like 18 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 1: me as an audience. You know, not that I feel 19 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: like I've had massive injustices put upon me or something 20 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: like that, but I've actually been really interested recently to 21 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: read some data about how female physicians tend to get 22 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: more patient messages, more staff requests, and so I recognize 23 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 1: that not only do we have more opportunities to potentially 24 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: say yes or no, but as we've talked about in 25 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: the interview, it can be a harsher kind of punishment 26 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: if you do say no. So while that doesn't solve 27 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: the problem, I do think learning about the reality of 28 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 1: the world we live in is helpful so that we 29 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: can see everything through a more understanding lens. And Lari 30 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: Weingart was a fantastic person to talk to. She's a 31 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: business school professor and just has a lot of insight. Yeah, 32 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: so we're looking forward to sharing that with you in 33 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: a few minutes. I think it's always good to be 34 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: careful with our yeses and no to make those choices mindfully. 35 00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: And one of the things I've certainly found over the 36 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: years that when people are thinking about saying yes or no, 37 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: we're often more likely to say yes to things that 38 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: are far in the future. And that's partly because we 39 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: don't see what the opportunity cost will be in the future, 40 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: Whereas you know somebody asks you to do something tomorrow, 41 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: like you know what you're doing tomorrow, you know what 42 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 1: tomorrow looks like, you know what the conditions are, and 43 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: so you can more accurately judge like, oh is it 44 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: you know, do I have the energy to do this? 45 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 1: Do I have the resources to do this? Is this 46 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 1: something I want to do? Whereas future you feels like 47 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: this total blank slate and you know, April US calendar 48 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: looks pretty open, and so they're like, hey, I could 49 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 1: do this. So you know, I was just tell people 50 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: to think like, would you do this tomorrow? Like, ask yourself, 51 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: even if you're looking at April, May, June and it's December. Now, 52 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: would you do this tomorrow? Would you be willing to 53 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: move things around or cancel things tomorrow to fit this in? 54 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: Because it's highly probable that life won't be perfect when 55 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: your commitment to do this thing come do so you 56 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: might consider that like, well, in the abstract, it sounds 57 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: fine to travel to this special meeting somewhere else, but 58 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: what if it turns out that you are patching to 59 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: gather back up childcare on that week, or what if 60 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: it turns out that one of your kids has this 61 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 1: huge thing at school that you're going to want to 62 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: be part of like are you still excited about doing 63 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: this thing? And if you aren't, you'd be like, why 64 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: am I doing this? Well, you know, then maybe that's 65 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: a sign that you don't want to take this on now. Yes, 66 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: future you versus past you may not always agree, and 67 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: you really want to try to get yourself as close 68 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: to the mindset of future you as you can when 69 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: you're making these decisions. But I can't wait to hear 70 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: what she has to say about saying no to non 71 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: promotable tasks. So let's go ahead and go to the interview. 72 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: All right, Well, I am so excited to welcome Lorie Weingard, 73 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: who is one of the authors of The No Club, 74 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: which we're going to talk about a whole bunch in 75 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: the next segment here, and she is a professor at 76 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: the Business School at Carnegie Mellon University. So hello, Laurie, 77 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming onto the show. Oh 78 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: and thanks so much for having me awesome. I think 79 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: you should start from the beginning because I loved reading 80 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: the story about how the No Club came to be? 81 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: Can you share that story, because I have to admit 82 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: it sounded very familiar and close to home to me. Yeah. 83 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: About twelve years ago or so, one of my friends, Linda, 84 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: sent an email to me and a few of our 85 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 1: other colleagues. We did not know each other, but she 86 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: knew each of us, and she sent us an email 87 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: saying that her work life was completely out of control, 88 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: and she knew that we were all successful and assumed 89 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: we were probably facing the same challenges. So she basically 90 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: just sent us a doodle pole saying, let's get together. 91 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: Here are sometimes I know you won't say no? And 92 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: she called us from there, and then the I just 93 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: can't say no club we started meeting regularly at this 94 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,919 Speaker 1: local restaurant over ten dollars bottles of wine. This was 95 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: their lost leader started talking about all the challenges that 96 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: we were facing in work, with situations where we wanted 97 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: to say no but we felt we couldn't or we 98 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: felt some pressure to say yes, either from ourselves or 99 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: from other people, and what we could do to solve 100 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: the problem, you know. And then over the next ten 101 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 1: twelve years, we got much better at saying no. But 102 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: also what we realized is it wasn't solving the problem. 103 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,919 Speaker 1: We just kept getting asked and other women were getting asked. 104 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: What we turned down, and so we really decided to 105 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: do something about it. And there was this story I 106 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: think about her walking past the desk of her colleague 107 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: as she was running from meeting to meeting and noticing 108 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: that he never moved. That was like very eye opening 109 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: to me because I feel like I have had some 110 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: days like that, and we're going to get in a 111 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: little bit to how that can happen. But that was 112 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: just so powerful. Yeah, right, And they actually compared their 113 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: schedules to one another and look at the blocks of 114 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: time even in a typical day, and Linda had all 115 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: these meetings, committee meetings and mentoring she was doing outside 116 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: of her regular job, which is teaching and research, where 117 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: George had all this time to kind of sit and 118 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: really do the deep thinking that was so important to 119 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 1: the work of a professor. And that's what really clued 120 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: her in that something was going on and she was 121 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 1: literally running circles around him physically. Well, let's start by 122 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 1: talking a little bit about non promotable tasks, which is 123 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: something that the NO Club goes into depth about. So 124 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: for those of us who aren't familiar with the concept, 125 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:40,359 Speaker 1: what are non promotable tasks? Right? A non promotable task 126 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: is something that you do at work that really matters 127 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: to the organization but doesn't help your career. Very simple definitions. 128 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 1: You think about all the things we do that aren't 129 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: core parts of our jobs necessarily, but need to get 130 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: done and somebody's got to do them. So when we 131 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: talk to lots of different people about example, you know, 132 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: we found a whole host of things that people talked about. 133 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: They talked about all the things they do, you know, 134 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: and that we do as women to help other people. 135 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: We might fill in when they're unavailable or they have 136 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: to pick up their kids. We may review the report 137 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: that they're writing to make sure that there aren't any errors, 138 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: or fix the slide deck, or you know, they're just 139 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: all these extra things we do. It could be also 140 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: things like serving on committees, like in my job, serve 141 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: on so many committees, and everybody does some of these. 142 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: But what we're finding is that these non promotable tasks, 143 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: when they get to be too much, could become problematic. 144 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: Think about recruiting activities or onboarding. I don't know if 145 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: you have done any of that, or even the things 146 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: we do to help our coworkers out in a pinch 147 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: or to resolve conflict or be the listening ear. And 148 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: then of course, you know there's the office housework, right, 149 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:55,239 Speaker 1: And this is the stuff that some people have written 150 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: about where they talk about ordering lunch for meetings and 151 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: taking notes or getting coffee all that extra stuff that 152 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: women are more likely to do than men. But these 153 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: are all non promotable tasks. I totally see that, and 154 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: I am so curious because having been on the receiving 155 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:16,239 Speaker 1: end of a lot of these requests, and I always 156 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: feel like it's well meaning and it always almost comes 157 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: off as complimentary, like, Sarah, we know that you're so 158 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: nice and you have your stuff together, so do you 159 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: have time to interview this candidate or whatever? And does 160 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: it happen more to well, I'm very interested, like, does 161 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: it actually happen more to women? And then why is 162 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: it just easier to ask the women? Are the women 163 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: more likely to say yes? Is it that women are 164 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: much like like, my hypothesis is that you can kind 165 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: of get away with being like the curmudgeonly genius as 166 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: a male much more easily than you can do that 167 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: as a woman. But that's only gut feeling, like I 168 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: don't have anything to actually back that up. Yeah, So 169 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: we definitely wondered if it was just us or if 170 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: other people, other women were in other organizations, were having 171 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: the same experience and it just so happens. A lot 172 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: of people have studied this issue in different domains and 173 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,599 Speaker 1: in different ways. But what we found it when we 174 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: look to other people's research is that, you know, there 175 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: were evidence in a whole host of professions there was 176 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: and also cross industries. So we found evidence that women 177 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: among attorneys were doing more non promotable work than their 178 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 1: male colleagues. There was evidence from engineers, from high tech workers, 179 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: a lot of you know, kind of white collar workers 180 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: what we might call But also we found some really 181 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: interesting studies that this was happening among in professions like 182 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: grocery store clerks or TSA agents that also the women 183 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: were being overburdened or pigeonholed into work that was not 184 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 1: advancing their career, where the men had much many more 185 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: opportunities to do things that help them advance. So we 186 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: started saying, Okay, so this is happening. You know, at 187 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: least people report that they're doing more of this than 188 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 1: the other, but we wanted to know how big is 189 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: the difference is this real ors is just what people perceive. 190 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: So we actually did a study with consultants people in 191 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: professional services firm and the nice thing about looking at 192 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: them is these firms track billable and non billable hours, right, 193 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: so they already have a baseline of you know, billable 194 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: hours are more promotable because these firms track and promote 195 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: based on what your billables are. But they also kept 196 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: track of all the other work that people did in 197 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: terms of helping with recruiting or mentor programs or off 198 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: sites or whatever. They were able to start tracking what 199 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: was promotable or not. And what they found was that 200 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 1: the female consultants were spending about two hundred extra hours 201 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: per year than their male counterparts doing non promotable work. 202 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: That's a month of extra work that doesn't advance careers, right. 203 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: And imagine when you're spending your time doing that extra work, 204 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 1: it's less time you have available to do the work 205 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,559 Speaker 1: that does advance your career, or you're just going to 206 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: work over time to fit it all in. And we 207 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: found evidence of both in our research. We found that 208 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: the junior women who were doing all this extra work 209 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: compared to their male counterparts, were actually doing less promotable 210 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: work that we were making this trade off, whereas the 211 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: female senior consultants, we're just working an extra month of time. Yes, 212 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: it's so interesting. Yeah, right, So we really did find 213 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: some hardcore evidence of that, and I wonder, you know, 214 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: not only would might that translate into promotion, but in 215 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: some industries that might translate into bonus money. Like that's 216 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: like actual you know, in the medical space, that would 217 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,839 Speaker 1: be like our views that aren't getting happening. And if 218 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: your paycheck depends on your RVUS, which not everybody's does, 219 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: but some people do, then that's actually like going to 220 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: contribute to the pay gap, even though they're doing things 221 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: that may be less pleasant than the view generating work 222 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: that they're actually paid to do or the deep work 223 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: that they're paid to do as researchers, and they're getting 224 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:10,719 Speaker 1: punished for it. Absolutely, And when we talk about promotability, 225 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: really want to think broadly, you know, I want to 226 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: hit that home, you hit it the nail on the head. 227 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: It's not just about getting a promotion, but it's all 228 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: the things that you know advance you in your work life, 229 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 1: which includes pay and recognition as well as advancement, which 230 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: you know often goes hand in hand. Well, then is 231 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: there research that looks at the why is it that 232 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: they are asked more or is it they say yes 233 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: more readily? We're both Interestingly, the answer is both, it's both. 234 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: This was our question about, you know, once you figure 235 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: out what's happening, then got to figure out why is 236 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: it happening, what's driving it, because if you don't know 237 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: what's driving it, then you can't fix the problem, or 238 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: you're you're just like you know, throwing darts at a 239 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: board and you're not knowing if you're going to hit 240 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: it hit the target. So we did this experiment where 241 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: we set it up so that women had the opportunity 242 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: versus men, to be asked to do a non promotable task, 243 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: to say yes or no, and even to volunteer. And 244 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: what we found across all these studies that the women 245 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: were forty four percent more likely to be asked to 246 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: do a non promotable task than a man a similar man, 247 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 1: so they were more likely to be asked. And you know, 248 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 1: it was a pretty good strategy because the women who 249 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: were asked were about fifty percent more likely to say yes. 250 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: And at the same time, you know, we found that 251 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: these norms or expectations potentially were internalized, that women were 252 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: also more likely to volunteer to do a non promotable 253 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: task in the first place. And we ran some really 254 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,719 Speaker 1: interesting set of studies that isolated the underlying reason for 255 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: all of these things, which comes down to shared expectations. 256 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: It was it's not that women are better at doing 257 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: non promotable tasks, or we like doing them more, or 258 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: we're just more helpful or altruistic. Well we may be that, 259 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: but that wasn't the reason women were voluntaring to do 260 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: these tasks. It's because everybody expects the women to do it. 261 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: We don't expect the men to do it. In terms 262 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 1: of our norms and stereotypes that we do think about 263 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: women as helpers, and we know this, the women know this, 264 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: we internalize it, and so we are more likely to 265 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: say yes, We're more likely to volunteer, and people are 266 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: more likely to ask us. So all these things are 267 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: coming into play. That's so interesting. It is kind of 268 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: like a cycle, right, because the more women say yes, 269 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: the more that reinforces that they're the ones to ask, 270 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: and then it's just kind of keeps feeding off of itself. 271 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: That's right, Okay, We're going to take a quick break, 272 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: and then I want to talk a little bit about, like, 273 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: is there a way to break this cycle without looking terrible, 274 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: because I think this is fascinating but also kind of 275 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: disheartening it at the same time. All right, we'll be 276 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: right back. All right, we are back, and we were 277 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: talking about the kind of endless cycle of saying yes 278 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: being expected to say yes. If you have read The 279 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: Note Club and you are determined to maybe become a 280 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: cycle breaker in this way, you are going to be 281 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: faced with the fact that, at least in my experience, 282 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: I always feel like there is more pressure as a 283 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: female to say yes, or that you, maybe to put 284 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: it a different way, you get punished more harshly for 285 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: saying no in a social way. So I would love 286 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: your advice for ways to say no without either getting 287 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: pushed back or developing a reputation as someone who is difficult, 288 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: hard to work with, not a team player, et cetera. 289 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: You know, it's really interesting you said you feel the 290 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: pressure to say yes, and that you wondered if it 291 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: was just you, because these are driven by expectations. It's 292 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: not just you, it's if there are these ext expectations, 293 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: and of course, when anyone violates an expectation, there's a 294 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: risk of backlash, there's a risk of being punished, and 295 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: this happens. So when women say no to these types 296 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: of requests, there could be negative repercussions. You know, you're 297 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: not a team player, you're not fulfilling the role you're 298 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: supposed to. But when men say no, they don't get punished. 299 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: In fact, they get a boost when they say yes 300 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: because oh they're so helpful. Women don't get that boost 301 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: because we just expect them to do it. So that 302 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: experience you have is very real, and it's been born 303 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: out in studies that we've done. Other people have done 304 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: as well. So what do you do about this? Knowing 305 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: that there are these expectations out there, we can't just 306 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: say no because there is this violation. So it's really 307 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: how do you say no in a way to avoid 308 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: the negative repercussions that you're talking about. So we do 309 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: lay out a whole host of recommendations in the book. 310 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: A few I wanted to focus on now would be first, 311 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: keeping your explanation brief. You know, our kind of feeling 312 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 1: is that I really have to explain myself and why 313 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: I'm saying no, And well, the requester may expect to 314 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: hear an explanation. You don't have to go into a 315 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: lot of detail. You know that you have a full 316 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 1: plate with your promotable work, with a deadline that's coming up. 317 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: Whatever it may be could be sufficient. Second is to 318 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: find ways to solve their problem. When someone comes with 319 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: two with a request, they're hoping that you will solve 320 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: their problem. But if you don't have the bandwidth to 321 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: do that, you're already overloaded with other non promotable tasks. 322 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: Is there a way for you to either suggest someone 323 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: else who could benefit from doing the task, maybe who's 324 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:47,360 Speaker 1: never done it before, or a different way they could 325 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 1: divide up the work among other people so that they're 326 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: getting what they need without you taking on the burden. 327 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: So that's the second, and then the third is finding 328 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: ways to negotiate your no, and sometimes it involves a 329 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 1: bit of a yes. So one is to say, well, 330 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: if I'm going to take this on, then I need 331 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: to clear my plate to make room for it. So 332 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: you need as a request, if you're especially if you're 333 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: my boss, to think about what to roll out of 334 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: in order to make room for this task, How do 335 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: you want me to be spending your time? Because I'm 336 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 1: sure you don't want me to cut back on my 337 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: promotable work, because that's really important to the organization, that's 338 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: the most instrumental to the bottom line. That's a big 339 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 1: part of promotable work. But if you want this other 340 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: work done, then what other non promotable tasks can someone 341 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: else take on to make room? Also setting limits on 342 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 1: the task, So if you want me to do it today, 343 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: who's going to do it next time? So I'll take 344 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: it on, but let's get Joe or James on board 345 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: as well, so that they're trained up to do it 346 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: next time. So we think about ways to turn the 347 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: request for help into a negotiation. I like that. I 348 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: feel like I could have used that the part about 349 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: trading your time, or like, what else will I not 350 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: do a little bit more than I did? Because you know, 351 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: I didn't go into my whole story here, but I 352 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: think part of what drove me into deciding to go 353 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 1: part time is frustration with so many of these things, 354 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: and that the ultimate permission to say no was to say, sorry, 355 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: I only work here sixty percent. My paycheck is sixty percent, 356 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: So you're gonna have to ask someone who is you 357 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: know here all the time. But I don't think that 358 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: is a great answer for most people. I happen to have, 359 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: you know, other things I really wanted to do with 360 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 1: the forty percent. Anyway, that's super interesting. I just going back, 361 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: I'm hearing like, oh, what could I have done better there? 362 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: All right, Well, give us an example of what is 363 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: a yes activity like if we're saying no to some 364 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 1: of these things, what are things that you know? A frame? 365 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: Is there a framework or a way that you have 366 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: of deciding if someone asks you something, whether it's something 367 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: that is worth your time, that is worth maybe moving 368 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: your core job responsibilities away from to really decide what 369 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: to say yes. I mean, a really important point is 370 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 1: you need to say yes to some things, and you 371 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 1: should say yes to some non promotable tasks. The answer 372 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 1: here is not to say no to everything. It's to 373 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,959 Speaker 1: choose the mptes that are right for you end up 374 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: with tasks that are fulfilling. And so this was actually 375 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: the insight that I had in terms of why I 376 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: was much less stressed out than the rest of my 377 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: no club in terms of the non promotable task I 378 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: was doing so they were running around doing things that 379 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: weren't necessarily fulfilling to them. But I was maybe subconsciously 380 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,400 Speaker 1: choosing the tasks that were right for me, that were 381 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: either aligned with my personal mission or help me grow 382 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: as a leader. So I was doing this in a 383 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 1: way that resulted in a think about like a portfolio 384 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 1: or a mix of non promotable tasks that were energizing 385 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: for me as opposed to depleting. So that was one 386 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: piece of the puzzle in terms of using mpts that 387 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: are right for you, in terms of choosing the ones 388 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: that are most fulfilling. A second characteristic is to choose 389 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 1: mptes that really leverage your expertise. Right, So, look, I'm 390 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: a professor. I was hired for my research skills and 391 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: my teaching skills, not my skills of how to design 392 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 1: a new building. Now, I might have some insight into 393 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: what classrooms should be structured, but I didn't need to spend, 394 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 1: you know, months and months on the design of three 395 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 1: different buildings over my thirty year career. So you know, 396 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: choosing mputees that leverage your expertise is also more beneficial 397 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: to your organization and more beneficial to you and even 398 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: potentially indirectly promotable in that at least you're developing those 399 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 1: key skill sets and then thinking about choosing mpts that 400 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: are right for you at that time. So sometimes mpts 401 00:21:54,600 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 1: are actually opportunities and they may present themselves as you know, 402 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 1: it feels really good to be asked. You know, you 403 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: respect me a lot. I'll get some visibility from this, 404 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: and doing that once may be good, but doing it 405 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: many times, you know, there's diminishing returns over time, so 406 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: it's not really a great use of your time the second, third, 407 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: or fourth time you did it, Like that building committee. 408 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: Maybe the first time was good, I met a bunch 409 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 1: of people, the third or fourth less so for my career. 410 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: But then also, you know, some of these opportunities are 411 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 1: very time consuming, and if I can't do them today, 412 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: maybe I'll be asked again in a few years from 413 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 1: now when I have more time or I've completed this 414 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 1: important task I'm working on now. So you know, you 415 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,479 Speaker 1: think about this in the long term and not just 416 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: the short term. That makes sense, and you know, saying 417 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: no relates to you know, we have two triggers typically 418 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: either fear or guilt. Right, we're either afraid to say 419 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: no because of this backlash issue we talked about, or 420 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: we feel guilty saying no because there's this simplicit expectation 421 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: that we're going to help a friend or a colleague. 422 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: And so recognizing those triggers that you might have or 423 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: the motivations you have for saying yes, can help you 424 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: make better decisions about what to do and when to 425 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: say yes and when to say no. I definitely recognize 426 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:17,919 Speaker 1: those triggers sometimes. But and then at the same time, 427 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 1: if you're truly afraid of what the backlash would be 428 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: by like disappointing someone that is senior to you, it 429 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: almost makes it worse because you're like, Okay, I could 430 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: say no to this, and I want to say no 431 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 1: to this, but then this person will be disappointed and 432 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: will never come to me again. Like I guess, in 433 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: practical terms, if you have just sort of come to 434 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,199 Speaker 1: realization that you've become such a yes person and you 435 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: want to start optimizing what your portfolio looks like and 436 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: only have the yeses on your plate, that makes sense. 437 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: With that framework, where would you start? Would you like 438 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: start small, like one little no. I don't know. I'm 439 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: just curious because for myself. This is still challenging even today, 440 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: even though I even with my built in excuse, I'm 441 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: still putting myself in the position and I'm still having 442 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: a hard time figuring out certain types of requests how 443 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: I would be able to turn them down. Yeah. So 444 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: having a framework of thinking about what types of tasks 445 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: you want to say yes to and the types of 446 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: tasks you want to say no to give you an 447 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: initial filter of how to respond. But your best first 448 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: step is to never say yes immediately. When someone asks 449 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 1: you to do a non promotable task or something you 450 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: think is non promotable, tell them you'll get back to 451 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: them and then do your homework. How much time is 452 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 1: this going to take? What's expected of me? Why do 453 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: I feel the need to say yes? Is it realistic? 454 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 1: Is this someone I need to say yes to? Sometimes 455 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: it is right, but other times it's someone that you 456 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: can have a conversation with about the shared problem that 457 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: I don't have the bandwidth to pick this up right now, 458 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: So let's find a way to help you. And also, 459 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: you know, say yes and recognize you know the limits 460 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: that I have. So it's doing the assessment of how 461 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 1: do you currently spend your time and understanding what's your 462 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: work work balance right now? How much promotable versus non 463 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: promotable work are you doing currently, how do others spend 464 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: their time, and one of the organization's expectations, and you 465 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: kind of put this all together to come up with 466 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 1: a goal of the amount of time you can spend, 467 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: and then you can use that to make your adjustments 468 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: and also to respond to other people in terms of 469 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: am I in that band of work that is right 470 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: for the organization and right for me? And then turn 471 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: to your manager proactively instead of reactively, So instead of 472 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: waiting for a request to come into you, go to 473 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 1: your manager and say, hey, look, you may not be 474 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 1: aware of all these other things I'm doing, but they're 475 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: all on my plate and I could really use your 476 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: help sorting through this to determine what my priority should be, 477 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 1: how I should be spending my time, how you'd like 478 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: me to be spending my time, because I guarant too 479 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: they'll come back with them wanting to do your promotable work, 480 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: because again that helps them more than anything. And then 481 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: recognize that there are other people who could potentially take 482 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: on this extra work that you're already doing. No that 483 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 1: makes sense I like that. Turning to my manager is 484 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 1: something that I always like doing because thankfully I work 485 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: with really good people and the delayed response is definitely 486 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:28,120 Speaker 1: softer and less terrifying than a immediate no. So okay 487 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: in every episode that we do for best of both worlds, 488 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 1: and by the way, this I think is going to 489 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 1: be so valuable. I would not be surprised if we 490 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: get some specific questions for you after it airs, so 491 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: I will email you if they come through Laura's blog, 492 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,640 Speaker 1: which is usually where the kind of detailed show notes come, 493 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: and then maybe if you have some expertise to offer, 494 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 1: we would love that. But every week we do a 495 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 1: love of the Week, where people share something that is 496 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 1: making them happy in a given week, and so do 497 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: you have one for us? Yeah? So I'm reading this 498 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: book right now that it's making me happy, but it's 499 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: also challenging me in a way that you know, makes 500 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: me a little uncomfortable but also really cool. The books 501 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: called Shared Sisterhood. It's written by Tina Opie and Beth Livingstone. 502 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: It was put out by the Harvard Business Press, but 503 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: it's really about how white women and women of color 504 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: can come together to support both racial and gender equity, 505 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 1: and so you know, as a white woman, especially writing 506 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: this book, you know all of us were we really 507 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: came from this, you know, this position of privilege and 508 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:41,159 Speaker 1: of just as a function of our socioeconomic status and 509 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: our jobs and our race that you know doesn't necessarily 510 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: extend to our sisters. And I find this book as 511 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: a really great and enjoyable and eye opening read. So 512 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: it's something I recommend. Awesome, I will link that in 513 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: the show notes Shared Sisterhood perfect. Well, I guess I'll 514 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: just do a book as well. So I used The 515 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: Handmaid's Tale the series as a love of the Week, 516 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 1: but now I'm going to add the book because I 517 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,439 Speaker 1: am greatly enjoying the Margaret Atwood version. It feels incredibly current. 518 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: They are very similar, but I don't really mind that 519 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: because I kind of enjoyed being immersed in that world anyway. 520 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,479 Speaker 1: So it's just fun to see a different type of depiction. 521 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 1: So that will be my novel love of the week. 522 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 1: Since you had a book, I feel like I had 523 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: to have a book too. Awesome. Well, thank you so 524 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: much for coming on. This is wonderful. Where can everybody 525 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 1: find you? And of course I will link to exactly 526 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: the title and all the authors of the book, because 527 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,640 Speaker 1: you were one of a couple co authors. Correct, there's 528 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: four of us actually who wrote the book together. We 529 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: are the I just can't say no club now. We 530 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: call ourselves the note Club because we've gotten so much better. 531 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: You can find us at the note club dot com. 532 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: So we have a website where with some information about 533 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: the book, places we've given talks, press coverage, some excerpts. 534 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: We also have there a information for book clubs, you know, 535 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: questions for book clubs if they want to discuss the 536 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: book in their book club, or ways to start your 537 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: own note club, which we also encourage. So I think 538 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: there's some resources there that everybody can gain from. I 539 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: love it. Well, thank you so much for coming on. 540 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: All of this definitely made me think a lot, and 541 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: I think it will be really useful to many of 542 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: our listeners as well. And thanks so much for the opportunity. 543 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. Thanks Sarah, all right, well, that 544 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: was so much fun chatting with Laurie Weingart. Definitely will 545 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: include all the information about the link to her book 546 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: and her book that she did with some others in 547 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: the show notes and we have a fun question for you. 548 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 1: Apparently I'm reading it. Okay, here we go. I have 549 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: been thinking a lot about getting more help around the home. 550 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: Right now. We have cleaners come about once a week, 551 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: but I've been thinking it would be nice to have 552 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: more help, someone who is around for longer, who could 553 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: do laundry, change beds, get groceries, and all the other 554 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: tours that the once a week cleaners don't do. My 555 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: husband works from home, and we're unsure about how he 556 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: would feel having someone else in the house during the day. 557 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: He tends to eat at a regular times, fitting it 558 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 1: around meetings, and it just seems like he would feel 559 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: like he was getting in their way or vice versa. 560 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: Do you have any advice on getting over this hesitation. Yeah, 561 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I totally understand because when you work from home, 562 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 1: one of the upsides sometimes is that you're in the 563 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: house by yourself, right, and especially if you are an 564 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: adult with many children, there may not be that many 565 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: moments when you are in the house by yourself. And 566 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that you you know, go around like 567 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: dancing and singing or anything like that, but it's nice 568 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: to have that feeling of privacy as you are going 569 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: about your day, and if you have someone else in 570 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: the house, then you don't necessarily have that. So I 571 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: think there's a couple of things you can do if 572 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: you decide that this is something that you are interested in. 573 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: Is one is be very clear with your husband about 574 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: which hours he would most like protected and which he 575 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: does not. And it might mean that you need to 576 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: be a little bit or set in the hours that 577 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: your help would come. But if, for instance, he really 578 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: likes to have the house to himself in the mornings, 579 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: then maybe you have this person come from two to five, 580 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: three days a week or something that those are the 581 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: days that maybe he will get adjusted to the idea 582 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: of having someone else in the house. Then I would 583 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: say if you hire someone also who's done this sort 584 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: of thing before, maybe if you look into their past experience, 585 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: if they have, you know, worked in a house where 586 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: maybe there's a stay at home parent or maybe there's 587 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: somebody who works from home or whatever, that they know 588 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: how to kind of stay out of people's way. That's 589 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: also kind of a helpful thing that you can kind 590 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: of get used to each other as well, or he'll 591 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: get used to like when she's running errands like these 592 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: are the times she'll actually be here or he will 593 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: be here, but you know there are sometimes that they 594 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: definitely will not be there, and then you kind of 595 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: learn how to be in the space but not be 596 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: on top of each other for the hours that the 597 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: person is there. I know that our neighbors tend to 598 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 1: have their cleaning person just not clean the office when 599 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: my friend is working from home, and they do the 600 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: rest of the house, and then therefore they're really not 601 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: in the way of each other. So I would also 602 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 1: just say maybe to try it, like arrange the hours 603 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: as best you can, because until you've actually seen what 604 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 1: it's like, you know, it kind of depends. Like Josh 605 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: and I are very different in this regard. If I'm 606 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: recording a podcast, obviously I can't have somebody making a 607 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: bunch of background noise. But if I'm not recording specifically, 608 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: I'm a very good concentrator, and there could be like 609 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: a literal tornado going on, and I honestly wouldn't notice 610 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: unless it was my own kids screaming for me. So 611 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: you know, my threshold's pretty low, but I might not 612 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: know that until I actually tried it. Like I don't 613 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: mind somebody cleaning if I'm working. My husband would absolutely 614 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: mind that. But you know, again, if he hasn't tried it, 615 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 1: and depending on how your house is set up, he 616 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: might actually be able to kind of hide from them 617 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: with more ease than he thinks. So I would also 618 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: just say dive in before assuming it's going to be 619 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: a problem, and he might develop his own strategies too. 620 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I know that if it seems like the 621 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 1: house is busy with lots of you know, we've had 622 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: various renovations going on, and that is harder to concentrate with. 623 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: But like, I'll go work somewhere else, Like I've worked 624 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 1: in the library. Now, that doesn't work if you have 625 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: a lot of conference calls. But you know, maybe there's 626 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: he can do walks while on a conference call or something. 627 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: If he does have quiet work that he could go 628 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 1: work in a library or coffee shop or something like that. 629 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: I don't know the sort of work he does, but 630 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: it's entirely possible that he might be able to do 631 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. He can also go, yeah, lock 632 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: himself in his office and they don't come in there. 633 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: I mean that that is entirely the easiest way to 634 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: stay out of each other's hair. And it's not that 635 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: different from you know, if you're at an office and 636 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: you would like shut yourself in your office or cubicle 637 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: and like not deal with whatever people are coming in 638 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: and out and around, and it's certainly possible to do 639 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: that well. This has been best of both worlds. Sarah 640 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: was interviewing Laurie Weinert, who is one of the co 641 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: authors of The No Club, great book about saying no 642 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: to non promotable tasks. We will be back next week 643 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,439 Speaker 1: with more on making work and life fit together. Thanks 644 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox 645 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 1: dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and 646 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 1: you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. 647 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 1: This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please 648 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: join us next time for more on making work and 649 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:30,320 Speaker 1: life work together.