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Speaker 1: It's Friday, June. I'm about to do my first way in. UM.

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Speaker 1: I'm a little nervous because my friend and I got

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Speaker 1: dinner last night, but it was mostly vegetables. UM, but

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Speaker 1: I did have a drink. Associate producer on the Calling

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Speaker 1: Bullshit podcast, Haley Pascal Des and I'll probably go for

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Speaker 1: a run this morning because they don't have any meetings.

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Speaker 1: But I usually like to wear myself after a run

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Speaker 1: if I run in the morning, because then I wait less.

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Speaker 1: But now I miss telling me I need to win

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Speaker 1: myself first thing in the morning. New is a digital

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Speaker 1: health platform. Their flagship product is an app that promises

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Speaker 1: a long term approach to weight loss, one based on

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Speaker 1: psychology and personalization. To help us understand if they're living

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Speaker 1: up to that promise, Haley volunteered to try it for

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Speaker 1: thirty days and document or experience. So I just got

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Speaker 1: back from my run. I am trying to run three

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Speaker 1: times a week and this was my third run this week,

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Speaker 1: so I'm feeling pretty good about that. And I logged

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Speaker 1: it in noon. I listened to some of the lessons

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Speaker 1: about the different foods that like. It was saying, like

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Speaker 1: a cheeseburger and arugula are a pound of arugula are

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Speaker 1: the same calorie density, and they'll both fill you up

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Speaker 1: the same, but you obviously won't gain as much weight

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Speaker 1: if you're eating a pound of arugula, which like, who

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Speaker 1: was eating a pound of arugula versus eating a cheeseburger.

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Speaker 1: But anyways, I'm a little nervous to start tracking my calories, Like,

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Speaker 1: I feel like this is going to be difficult, but uh,

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Speaker 1: let's see how it goes. Welcome to Calling Bullshit, the

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Speaker 1: podcast about purpose washing, the gap between what an organization

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Speaker 1: says they stand for and what they actually do and

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Speaker 1: what they would need to change to practice what they preach.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, Time Montague, and I've spent over a

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Speaker 1: decade helping organizations define what they stand for, their purpose

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Speaker 1: and then help them to use that purpose to drive

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Speaker 1: transformation throughout their business. Unfortunately, at a lot of institutions today,

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Speaker 1: there's still a pretty wide gap between word and deed.

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Speaker 1: That gap has a name bullshit. But, and this is important,

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Speaker 1: bullshit is serious, but it's also a treatable condition. So

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Speaker 1: when our bullshit detector lights up, we're going to explore

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Speaker 1: everything the organization should do to fix it new is popular.

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Speaker 1: It has two fifty million downloads ads that pop up

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Speaker 1: everywhere from podcasts to the Super Bowl, an evaluation of

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Speaker 1: over three point seven billion dollars, and as they explained

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Speaker 1: in this promo video, Noon claims to have been purpose

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Speaker 1: led from the start thirteen years ago. Save Young and

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Speaker 1: Art and Patakov founded Noon with one mission to help

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Speaker 1: as many people as possible live healthier lives. Noon was

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Speaker 1: created because healthcare has really become sick care and inefficient

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Speaker 1: system designed to treat patients after they're already sick. Today,

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Speaker 1: Noon is a trusted, consumer led digital health platform helping

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Speaker 1: people around the world live healthier lives. Guided by principles

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Speaker 1: of proven behavioral science. We've discovered the right combination of psychology, technology,

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Speaker 1: and human coaching that empowers people to change their habits

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Speaker 1: and take control of their health. I can fit in

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Speaker 1: close that I've never been able to where before I

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Speaker 1: lost eighty pounds on New. There's a much bigger connection

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Speaker 1: with my mind and body now with New that I

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Speaker 1: didn't have before, and I think that's the biggest difference.

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Speaker 1: By pairing the power of the individual with proven science

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Speaker 1: and psychology, we're building products that change behaviors for good

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Speaker 1: and create transformational health outcomes. At Noon, we believe that

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Speaker 1: better health begins with you, and behavior change starts with

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Speaker 1: us co founders who spent years working towards their goal

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Speaker 1: check tackling a real problem double check. At a glance,

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Speaker 1: Noon looks fairly low BS. But digging a little deeper,

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Speaker 1: I learned that health is incredibly complex and equating weight

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Speaker 1: with health this puts New in murky territory where they

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Speaker 1: risk harming the very people they say they exist to help.

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Speaker 1: So have founders Artem and Saves You created an app

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Speaker 1: that truly focuses on long term health or is now

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Speaker 1: just another one size fits all diet that promises the

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Speaker 1: unattainable while luring users into a cycle of failure, all

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Speaker 1: in the name of wellness. Get out your BS detectors, folks,

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Speaker 1: and join me as we weigh now on the bullshit scale. Alright,

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Speaker 1: I see NOOM Healthy Weight Loss. It has seven hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand reviews five star reviews, so well, it has a

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Speaker 1: four point seven out of five, so it sounds great. Okay,

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Speaker 1: it's downloading. It's like a little orange glow. So it says,

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Speaker 1: Noon creates long term results through habit and behavior change,

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Speaker 1: not restrictive dieting. Do you have an important event coming up?

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Speaker 1: I mean one of the events is just summer, so

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Speaker 1: don't choose that. How how confident are you in reaching

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Speaker 1: one pounds by August? I'm uncertain. Why are you uncertain?

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Speaker 1: I haven't had success in the past. Previous plans were

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Speaker 1: too restrictive. There's a bun I'm going to say, I

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Speaker 1: haven't had success in the past, and I will try

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Speaker 1: to stick with it for a month. Noon I believe

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Speaker 1: considers itself to be a wellness app, not a diet app.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think our culture has moved away from

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Speaker 1: the word diet and toward wellness? I think there's two reasons.

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Speaker 1: The less cynical reason, the positive, let's be generous to

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Speaker 1: people reason is because diet is a negative thing that

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Speaker 1: people now think about. Diet means eating less, it's stigmatizing

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Speaker 1: people that are overweight, and it's telling you to impose unreasonable,

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Speaker 1: unhealthy restrictions on your eating behavior that aren't going to

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Speaker 1: be good for you. So we're moving away from a

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Speaker 1: diet culture because we're recognizing that dieting is problematic and

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Speaker 1: we're using another term to try and capture something which

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Speaker 1: is more positive and that's you know, that's a good thing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that sounds like it's at least the right idea. It's

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Speaker 1: the right idea behind that. Anything which is about changing

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Speaker 1: your diet or eating less in your diet to lose

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Speaker 1: weight is still really a dieting culture. My more cynical

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Speaker 1: hat says that it's actually still the same old thing,

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Speaker 1: it's just being slightly rebranded. Dr Gene Ogden is a

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Speaker 1: professor of health psychology at the University of Surrey in

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Speaker 1: the UK. She spent the last thirty years teaching, researching

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Speaker 1: and writing about the intersection of psychology, food and health.

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Speaker 1: Her six books include Health Psychology, The Psychology of Eating

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Speaker 1: and Fat Chance The Myth of Dieting explained. My key

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Speaker 1: area is to look at how psychology in terms of

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Speaker 1: the perception of hunger, the meaning of food, the lives

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Speaker 1: that we live, the childhoods that we have, the experiences

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Speaker 1: we have in the world that we live in shape

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Speaker 1: our relationship with food and make it very hard for

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Speaker 1: us to actually eat less and to stay well. So,

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Speaker 1: can you talk about some examples of unhealthy diet fads,

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Speaker 1: either past or current, Just to give us a little context.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's an endless slimming products, which are just

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Speaker 1: drinks really that you have as meal substitutes. There was

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Speaker 1: the Beverly Hills diets, which said you just eat lots

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Speaker 1: and lots and lots of fruits. You have constant diarrhea,

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Speaker 1: and there was a quote from it which said something

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Speaker 1: like the more time you spend on the toilet, the better.

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Speaker 1: There was the cabbage soup diet, where you just drink

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Speaker 1: and eat cabbage soup, which gives you the most horrendous wind.

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Speaker 1: You spend a lot of your time bloated. It's very unsociable,

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Speaker 1: but friends have no friends, No one ever wants to

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Speaker 1: be near you. But eventually you lose a lot of

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Speaker 1: weight because you're just eating cabbage soup. I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: the thing, you know. If you eat cabbage soup for

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Speaker 1: six weeks, you're loot weight. If you have diarrhea for

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Speaker 1: six weeks, you will lose weight. And that is the

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Speaker 1: problem with the diet industry and always has been. Is

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Speaker 1: there anyone can invente anything to get you to lose weight,

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Speaker 1: but you cannot maintain that for any length of time,

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Speaker 1: So all weight pretty much goes back on again. That's

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Speaker 1: also the money making fabulousness of the diet industry is

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Speaker 1: it's designed to fail. So if you design a product

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Speaker 1: which fails, people keep coming back and buying more of

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Speaker 1: the product. So we're here to talk about Noon, the

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Speaker 1: weight loss app that seems to be sweeping the world,

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Speaker 1: and it's an app that promises to help as many

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Speaker 1: people as possible live healthier lives through behavior change, and

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Speaker 1: their flagship product, as best I can tell, is essentially

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Speaker 1: a diet and psychology app rolled into one. And I

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Speaker 1: understand that you've actually downloaded NEWM the past and and

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Speaker 1: taking a look at it. What were your initial thoughts

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Speaker 1: or impressions of new I mean, I like the idea

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Speaker 1: that they're trying to bring psychology into it. I think

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Speaker 1: that they're trying to take a holistic view of the individual,

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Speaker 1: which is also a really good thing. My feeling when

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Speaker 1: I've had a look at it is that it probably

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Speaker 1: hasn't got as much psychology in it as I would like,

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Speaker 1: and also it's not as careful about not doing harm

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Speaker 1: as I think it probably should be. So anybody can

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Speaker 1: go on it unless you've got to be am I

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Speaker 1: under eighteen point five which includes an awful lot of

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Speaker 1: people that don't need to lose weight. I would say,

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Speaker 1: if you'll be a eyes between twenty and twenty five,

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Speaker 1: don't try and lose weight. Why would you try and

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Speaker 1: lose weight, because you're fine as you are. Growing up,

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Speaker 1: Like I remember, we'd get US Weekly and Cosmopolitan magazine

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Speaker 1: and like just the women in there, It's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: celebrities were just so thin. And we were obsessed with

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Speaker 1: celebrity culture when I was growing up, and I'm not

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Speaker 1: so much anymore. But we would just like inspect these

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Speaker 1: magazines and like to say, how good these women looked.

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Speaker 1: And we always talked about like we want to look

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Speaker 1: like them, Like how do we look like them? I

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Speaker 1: feel like the way I look is the most important thing. Sometimes.

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Speaker 1: I used to have a certain body that I don't

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Speaker 1: have anymore, and I'm always trying to get back to

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Speaker 1: that body. Like I've stayed the same way for the

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Speaker 1: past two years, and I've been trying to like lose

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Speaker 1: the same five pounds for that that time. But I'm

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Speaker 1: also wondering, like maybe I'm just getting older and my

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Speaker 1: metabolism slowing down, and this is just what I weigh

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Speaker 1: now and it's just what I look like now, which

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Speaker 1: I might just have to come to terms with. But um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I'd love to hear you talk about out the

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Speaker 1: connections between physical health, mental health, and emotional well being

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Speaker 1: when it comes to food. So for me, it's very

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Speaker 1: very clear that the mind and body are related, absolutely interrelated,

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Speaker 1: so that how we think, our emotions, our childhoods are

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Speaker 1: learning have a direct impact upon our physical bodies and

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Speaker 1: our physical health, and our physical health has a direct

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Speaker 1: relationship on how we think and how we feel and

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Speaker 1: our emotional well being. So those two things are very

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Speaker 1: clearly interrelated. Everybody has a very personal relationship with food,

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Speaker 1: a personal relationship with their physical bodies, and also a

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Speaker 1: meaning around the body size that they have. That is

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Speaker 1: why trying to change somebody's eating behavior is so incredibly difficult,

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Speaker 1: because food means something to each person in a very

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Speaker 1: different way. And what you need to do to get

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Speaker 1: someone to change their eating behavior is to first understand

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Speaker 1: the role that food plays in their lives and then

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Speaker 1: help them see that role of food and then help

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Speaker 1: them change that. And that's a very difficult thing to do, right,

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Speaker 1: So can dieting. Lest we just curse the darkness. Can

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Speaker 1: dieting ever actually benefit a person's health, Like, is there

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Speaker 1: such a thing as a beneficial diet? Absolutely? And that's

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Speaker 1: where the word diet, you know, has been kind of

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Speaker 1: I don't know, has has got so much kind of

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Speaker 1: negativity around it where it's ruined. There's nothing wrong with

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Speaker 1: deciding to eat more healthily, to change your diet and

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Speaker 1: to make healthier choices, and that's got to be a

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Speaker 1: good thing for you. And if that involves reducing your

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Speaker 1: calorie and take eating fewer snacks, making sure that you

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Speaker 1: have more fruit and vegetables, or that you have brown

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Speaker 1: bread rather than white bread, or that you don't deep

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Speaker 1: fry your foods, those are all dietary choices and those

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Speaker 1: are sustainable. And if that's called a diet, so be it.

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Speaker 1: But that's sustainabul and that can work. I started on Friday.

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Speaker 1: It's been good. I don't hit it. There's like these

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Speaker 1: little mini lessons that I have to complete every day

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Speaker 1: and it starts out like newm one oh one. So

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Speaker 1: it's kind of just trying to tell you about the

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Speaker 1: psychology of what you're eating. One of the first lessons

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Speaker 1: was like start eating less dense, so it categorizes like

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Speaker 1: fruits and veggies are green. It like encourages you to

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Speaker 1: eat as many fruits and veggies as you want. Then

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Speaker 1: there's like a yellow category, which are things that you

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Speaker 1: are supposed to eat moderation, and then there's an orange category,

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Speaker 1: which are things that you're not supposed to eat a

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Speaker 1: lot of. It hasn't been as hard as I thought

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Speaker 1: to track calories. There's a weight loss though, So if

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Speaker 1: you're in the zone, you're good. I'd love your take

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Speaker 1: on on some of the more technical aspects of the program. So,

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Speaker 1: first of all, New employs a traffic light system for

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Speaker 1: categorizing all foods. What is your perspective just on that

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Speaker 1: kind of categorization. I think actually that quite effective. You're

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Speaker 1: not saying these are good or bad food, so I

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Speaker 1: think sometimes that kind of dichotomized demonizing a food can

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Speaker 1: be quite problematic. But you're giving people fairly simple information

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Speaker 1: saying these are the foods to go for fill your

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Speaker 1: plate up with these, So it's a fairly simple way

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Speaker 1: of doing that. When you drill down into the nitty

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Speaker 1: gritty of that, it can become a little bit problematic

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Speaker 1: because things like nuts, which are good for you are

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Speaker 1: also really high fat, so you know where do they belong.

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Speaker 1: It's not like smoking, where you can say don't smoke

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Speaker 1: cigarettes are bad for you. There's very few just bad foods.

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Speaker 1: I'd love to get perspective on a couple of other

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Speaker 1: new strategies here. So one is to weigh yourself every day.

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Speaker 1: It's you know, theoretically it's a good motivational strategy because

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Speaker 1: you get instant feedback. So the thing about behavior change

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Speaker 1: is quite often the goals are in this short term,

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Speaker 1: but the rewards are in the long term. So you know,

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Speaker 1: you want to lose weight now, but the reward is

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Speaker 1: that you won't have a heart attack when you're saying

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Speaker 1: ext or that you will not get diabetes in the

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Speaker 1: future years, and that steels such a long way in

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Speaker 1: the future that people just ignore that and they really

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Speaker 1: want immediate benefits. The problem with weighing yourself every day

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Speaker 1: is a weight naturally fluctuates, and from our studies, weighing

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Speaker 1: yourself every day was good and reinforcing if your weight

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Speaker 1: went down. But if your weight goes up because of

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Speaker 1: whatever else is happening in your life, then that can

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Speaker 1: lead to kind of catastrophizing and thinking oh god, it's hopeless.

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Speaker 1: All the effort I put in yesterday, why bother? And

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Speaker 1: I still didn't lose weight. So you're far better off

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Speaker 1: getting the reinforcement not on the body weight, but the

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Speaker 1: reinforcement on the behavior. So it's andy, do I four

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Speaker 1: and yesterday and to do? I wait in at one

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Speaker 1: one five points six, which is the lowest I've been

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Speaker 1: in time. I'm happy about it. Another thing that the

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Speaker 1: new map asks for actually is for you to enter

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Speaker 1: a goal weight, and in some cases with a timeline attached,

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Speaker 1: so a goal weight for an upcoming event, a wedding

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Speaker 1: or a vacation something like that. How do you feel

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Speaker 1: about that? Well, again, it's double edged. Sorry, this is

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Speaker 1: going to be my answer to everything. So the research

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Speaker 1: shows that it's good to plan and it's good to

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Speaker 1: set goals. So it's no good saying to yourself I

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Speaker 1: will eat well or I will lose weight. You need

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Speaker 1: to say I will eat well tomorrow, and I will

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Speaker 1: eat this, this and this, and I will lose weight

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Speaker 1: by next Saturday or lose weight by June. So goal

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Speaker 1: setting is really good if that goal setting is based around,

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Speaker 1: you know, stereotypes of having to be thin for your wedding,

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Speaker 1: or stereotypes of wanting to go to a party and

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Speaker 1: looking attractive by having lost a bit of weight, or

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Speaker 1: wanting to be beach ready and get onto the beach

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Speaker 1: in your bikini. That's not great because that's really forcing

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Speaker 1: the stereotypes that you know, the only way to be

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Speaker 1: attractive is to be thinner. And the other problem is

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Speaker 1: that when goals fail, we then feel worse about ourselves. Okay,

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Speaker 1: today with one eighteen point for which I'm a little

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Speaker 1: disappointed in um. The other day I was like one

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Speaker 1: sixteen something, So I will lock that in newm now.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things I assume you'll think this

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Speaker 1: is a good thing, but I don't know. One of

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Speaker 1: the other things the app asked you to do is

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Speaker 1: ten minutes of what they call CBT cognitive behavioral therapy

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Speaker 1: per day. Well, if that's kind of encouraging mindful eating,

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Speaker 1: that's probably quite a good thing. If it's encouraging being

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Speaker 1: kind to yourself, that's a good thing. And if it's

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Speaker 1: encouraging changing the way you think about food, I think

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Speaker 1: that's a good thing. The problem with that is that again,

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Speaker 1: all those thoughts that we have and the role of

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Speaker 1: food in our lives is so personalized. It's quite good

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Speaker 1: to have someone to help us do that really, just

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Speaker 1: to ask you how does food feature in your life

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Speaker 1: and then try and change the way that we think

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Speaker 1: about foods. So I think it's you know, it's slightly

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Speaker 1: easy just tossing that out as a kind of psychological

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Speaker 1: bits to do a bit of CVT, you need to

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Speaker 1: properly support and structure that process. The reason I'm making

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Speaker 1: this audio diary is because I just got a new

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Speaker 1: one on one coach and I just, what's a little

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Speaker 1: confused about what she said to me. She just sent

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Speaker 1: me an intro message and it says, I'm your coach, Catherine,

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Speaker 1: And she read my Big Picture survey, which is like

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Speaker 1: the big thing I want to complete at the end

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Speaker 1: of noon, And I said that I want to run

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Speaker 1: ten miles um. But she said, after reading a Big

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Speaker 1: Picture survey, it sounds like you were motivated to give

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Speaker 1: yourself what you know that you deserve, making yourself a priority.

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Speaker 1: It can be tough to live life to the fullest

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Speaker 1: when you do not feel comfortable in your body. What

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Speaker 1: excites you the most about the possibility of hitting those

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Speaker 1: ten miles um? I thought That was a little strange,

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Speaker 1: that message, because it starts with saying that I'm not

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Speaker 1: comfortable in my body, and that is not something I

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Speaker 1: said in my big picture. Running ten miles is a

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Speaker 1: fitness goal and it really has nothing to do with

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Speaker 1: how other people see me. I think it would just

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Speaker 1: make me really proud if I could do it without walking. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm confused about her message. So is this just

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Speaker 1: a bump in the road that leads to a healthier

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Speaker 1: life or is there something fundamentally flawed about noons approach

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Speaker 1: the conclusion the Hayley's Thirty Days of New and News

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Speaker 1: final BS score right after the break definitely falling behind

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Speaker 1: on the lessons. They're feeling a little repetitive, so it's

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Speaker 1: kind of a challenge to do them. I was frustrated

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Speaker 1: this weekend because I pizza and ice cream on Friday

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Speaker 1: and I weighed myself and I it like one up,

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Speaker 1: like two pounds, like almost back to where I started.

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Speaker 1: And it was just like frustrating and annoying because I

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Speaker 1: want to be able to enjoy pizza and ice cream sometimes,

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Speaker 1: but my weight is not really going down. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I guess we'll see, but it's almost three weeks. But

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Speaker 1: I do feel like healthier overall, Like I'm definitely When

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Speaker 1: I want to snack, I'm like, oh, eat a handful

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Speaker 1: of cherries instead of a handful of chips. But it

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Speaker 1: is getting harder to do it, Like it's getting harder

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Speaker 1: to track everything I eat. Eat and New makes you

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Speaker 1: obsessive because I constantly have to do the lessons. I

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Speaker 1: can't have to lick my food. I have to put

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Speaker 1: in my exercise like you're always in New. One of

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Speaker 1: the other things that the app asked you to do

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Speaker 1: is track all of your food and count all of

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Speaker 1: your calories. Well, so there's also attention. All of this

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Speaker 1: is so problematic. It's all problematic because a good thing

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Speaker 1: is to eat mindfully. It's a fine line between eating

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Speaker 1: mindfully and becoming obsessed with what you're eating. The chances

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Speaker 1: are if you're a bit that way inclined, you will

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Speaker 1: slip across into food obsession. And I think that's the problem.

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Speaker 1: You know, what you really want is for food to

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Speaker 1: be a bit of your life, but not everything in

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Speaker 1: your life. I got a new phone, and yeah, my

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Speaker 1: new all my new progress is gone. My one on

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Speaker 1: one coach has been super unresponsive. She only answers like

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Speaker 1: every three days. UM, so she really hasn't been helping

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Speaker 1: me much. And I contacted support and they said that

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Speaker 1: she's the only one that can reset my progress. So

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Speaker 1: it's been four or five days that I haven't been

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Speaker 1: able to like do my lessons, which I'm realizing our

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Speaker 1: big part of the motivation for me to be in

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Speaker 1: the app. I feel like I definitely had a plateau recently.

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Speaker 1: I am definitely not as good about portion sizes. I'm

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Speaker 1: definitely going back to some of the bad habits that

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Speaker 1: I had before I started. Now. I think I was

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Speaker 1: so excited in the beginning, and now it's just like

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Speaker 1: this is getting old? Is new? Getting it right? Would

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Speaker 1: you say? Or do they have some work to do?

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Speaker 1: I think the thing about any app, including Noom, is

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Speaker 1: that they are only as good as the people who

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Speaker 1: carry on using them. So you have to carry on

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Speaker 1: using an app in order for it to work. And

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Speaker 1: any app, including Noom, has got a high drop out rate.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's the first problem, is that it's

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Speaker 1: not helping as many people as it perhaps would like

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Speaker 1: to do because people are dropping out of the actual app.

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Speaker 1: I think the second thing is that it's always in

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Speaker 1: danger of doing harm. So that's always a problem with

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Speaker 1: weight loss. Always a problem with food is that we

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Speaker 1: can slither into doing harm very quickly. If it works,

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Speaker 1: some people feel better about themselves. If it stops working,

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Speaker 1: then people feel worse about themselves. So it's it's always

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Speaker 1: getting that balance, really, And I think the other thing

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Speaker 1: is it's dealing with people who don't necessarily need to

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Speaker 1: lose weight for their health. That's problematic. It needs to

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Speaker 1: target people who I would say, you know, be am

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Speaker 1: I thirty and above, maybe twenty seven and above, nobody else,

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Speaker 1: and then those people can benefit from it, but no

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Speaker 1: one else is potentially harmed from it. Hello. Today is Friday,

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Speaker 1: July twenty two, and it's been a week now since

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Speaker 1: I lost my progress um and someone at support said,

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Speaker 1: why don't you try deleting the app and reinstalling the app.

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00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 1: So I did that and now all my progresses back

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00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 1: to where it was. I can see my lessons, So

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited to start doing lessons again. I'm looking

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Speaker 1: at my weight graph, excited to have it back so

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00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: I can see my progress, and yeah, it looks like

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Speaker 1: it's mostly going down. I mean it's definitely fluctuated. A

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00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 1: lot um started at one one point four, then a

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Speaker 1: week later I went back up to one one eight,

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Speaker 1: then it went back up to one one seven point eight,

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Speaker 1: and now it's been declining for a couple of days.

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Speaker 1: And I see this little red at the one one twelve.

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Speaker 1: It looks pretty far away, but it looks like it's

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Speaker 1: trying to get me there by mid August. So maybe

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Speaker 1: I can do it. And So if says you Jong,

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Speaker 1: the co founder and CEO of the company, we're here,

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00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 1: what kind of advice would you give him about changes

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00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 1: that he ought to consider making to the app in

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Speaker 1: order to serve and help as many people as possible.

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Speaker 1: What I would say is that it's about building in

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Speaker 1: as many short term rewards as possible really into the system,

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Speaker 1: and you should always focus on the behavior and the

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Speaker 1: feeling and not the weight. The problem is is that

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Speaker 1: this goes back to our initial discussion about whether it's

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Speaker 1: a diet app or a well being app. We still

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Speaker 1: live in a dieting world, and a dieting world is

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Speaker 1: people who want to lose weight. So you need to

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Speaker 1: find a way of saying will make you happy, we

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Speaker 1: will help you develop healthier habits and have a good

430
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: relationship with food and being more active and then and

431
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: by the way, you might also lose some weight, but

432
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: you take weight out of the picture really right, exactly,

433
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: I mean the focus of the app. It puts weight

434
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 1: right at the center, and that does feel like the

435
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 1: emphasis is wrong. If they truly believe in helping people

436
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,679
Speaker 1: live healthier lives, so the ideal app would actually not

437
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: address food at all in a way and make it

438
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 1: or or at least try to de emphasize it. It

439
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 1: would emphasize weight. I would de emphasize weight. I think right, Hello,

440
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 1: it's Saturday, July four, Um, I think for my thirty

441
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: days is tomorrow, and I am being less restrictive than

442
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 1: I was at the beginning of this, and my weight

443
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,439
Speaker 1: is not my weight is kind of plate towing because

444
00:27:54,480 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: of it. Just thinking about what I was about being

445
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: less restrictive with my diet, I think, I'm I'm pretty

446
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:10,640
Speaker 1: proud of the way I've lost and I worked out

447
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: four times this week, and um, I also feeling good

448
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: about the way I've been eating, um and hoping to

449
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: continue to all this weight, but but pretty happy with

450
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 1: the with the results so far. So you know with

451
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: an app like noomor with Noom, you're going to set

452
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: a goal. If you meet it, you feel great. If

453
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: you fail, you feel like you've failed. If you lose weight,

454
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: you feel great. If you haven't lost weight, then you

455
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: feel rubbish about yourself. And so it only works for

456
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: those people that it works for, and then it could

457
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: possibly do harmful all the people that it doesn't work for,

458
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: which is why they drop out. Today I weighed myself

459
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: and I weighed one one eight point four, just the

460
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: same weight when I started new and I don't know

461
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: what happened. I feel very frustrated. I'm just I feel

462
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: like I put a lot of effort into it. I

463
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: put a lot of time into it. I really wanted

464
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: to be I've been like steadily at and I wanted

465
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: to end this on that note like, oh I had

466
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: lost three pounds, like I did it um, but no.

467
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: One of my big goals was to just work out more.

468
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: I basically have been running three times a week for

469
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: the past month, which I feel so good about. And

470
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: I can just tell that I'm getting stronger, so I

471
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: am really proud of that. I just find like the

472
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: scale very confusing because I like literally just jumped from

473
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: one seven yesterday and then I jumped again today. So

474
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: I'm like, did I actually lose three pounds? I don't

475
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: think I did. I think this is just like the

476
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 1: way I am, and I'm just I'm just thinking that

477
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: I really don't know what way it means. And I

478
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 1: don't want to put so much pressure on losing five

479
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: pounds because there are some good habits I've learned from Noon,

480
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: and yeah, and I want I want to take that away. Okay,

481
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: this is my last question for you, Jane. We have

482
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 1: something on this show we call the BS scale, and

483
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: it goes from zero to one. On our scale, zero

484
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: is the best I eat zero BS and a hundred

485
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,959
Speaker 1: is the worst total BS. So, given that Noon's mission

486
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: is to help as many people as possible live healthier

487
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 1: lives through behavior change, what score would you give New

488
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: And I'm allowed to justify this on tie of course

489
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: you are yes, very interesting and why well, okay, I

490
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: would give them probably a forty I think zero. Okay,

491
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: So I admire some of what they're trying to do.

492
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: I admire that they are making it more psychological, admire

493
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: that they are bringing in goals. I admire that they

494
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: are trying to get people to do a bit of CBT,

495
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: and I admire their their big picture thinking. I mean,

496
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,719
Speaker 1: how wonderful to change as many people as possibles relationship

497
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: with food and well being and health and and all

498
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: of that. I think that's fabulous. At the same time,

499
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: I think they're setting their sites far too high. I

500
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: think they're underestimating the possibility of doing harm to those

501
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: people that they include in it. And I think they're

502
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: including too many people. I think they need to be

503
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 1: more selective in who they collect in their little group

504
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: so that they can minimize how much harm they do.

505
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 1: But I mean, as a marketing strategy, fabulous. I mean,

506
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: let's have world health and peace and the rest of it.

507
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: That's as goal, isn't it, which you know isn't going

508
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: to be met. Yeah, Jane, thank you. I've so enjoyed

509
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: talking to you today. Thank you for coming on the show.

510
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: You're very welcome. You're very welcome. Everybody has a complex

511
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: relationship with food, and helping users to understand this relationship

512
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: and ultimately make choices that will serve their health is

513
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: a massive goal for any company, and a noble one

514
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: to so. In some ways, I understand newmes approach here.

515
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 1: We do need to have some way of measuring health,

516
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: but his body weight or body size the right metric.

517
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: Newmes stated purpose is to help as many people as

518
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 1: possible live healthier lives through behavior change, and there's no

519
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: doubt that the app has helped tens of thousands of people.

520
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: But as Jane points out, they've set their sights too high.

521
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: After following Haley's journey, I will say that Noon certainly

522
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: seems to be pulling off the behavior change part of

523
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: their purpose, but their end goal of health is at

524
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: odds with some of their tactics. Overall, I have to

525
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: say my PS detector is pegged higher than Jayne's Noons

526
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: approach to eating and health is definitely more similar to

527
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: the diets that preceded than it is different. But Noons

528
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: position certainly doesn't feel hopeless. We'll be back right after

529
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: the break to talk through some concrete ways that Noon

530
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: can close the gap between word and deed. Okay, I

531
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: am very excited to get into today's panel. I want

532
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: to ask you both to first introduce yourselves and tell

533
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 1: us a little bit about your work. Let's start with you. Sure, um, Hi, everyone,

534
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: my name is Ealings. Hi. I'm a registered dietitian based

535
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 1: in Brooklyn, New York, and I currently provide nutrition counseling

536
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: through a private practice. UM. I have a special interest

537
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: in supporting those with eating disorders or anywhere along the

538
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 1: spectrum of disordered eating, as well as those with endocrine

539
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 1: related conditions like diabetes. I practice nutrition through the lens

540
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 1: of weight inclusivity, and I do my work informed by

541
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 1: the theories of intuitive eating, mindful eating, health at every size,

542
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: and other non diet approaches to nutrition. M love that.

543
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: Thank you. UM Okay, Taylor your turn. Hi. Everyone, I'm

544
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,879
Speaker 1: Taylor Madjuski. I am a journalist based in San Francisco, California.

545
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,320
Speaker 1: I started my career writing about technology, but over the

546
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,959
Speaker 1: past couple of years have really started to cover health

547
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 1: and science more in a out of my work touches

548
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: on those topics through a gender lens. And I'm so

549
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,439
Speaker 1: excited to be here. Awesome, let's jump right in. Each

550
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: one of you has come prepared with an idea to

551
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 1: help new better live up to their mission, which is

552
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: just to remind folks to help as many people as

553
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 1: possible live healthier lives through behavior change. Taylor I'm gonna

554
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: let you go first, this time in two minutes or less.

555
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 1: What's the one thing that you would change about now? Sure?

556
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: So last year I wrote an article on newon. I

557
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 1: investigated them for a couple of months, and I think

558
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: that the biggest thing that stands out for me is

559
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: that new claims that it's grounded in evidence based science,

560
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: and to their credit, they have published a number of scientific,

561
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: peer reviewed articles, but I think that none of these

562
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 1: studies support its central marketing claim, which is that it

563
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: will help you lose weight and keep it off for life.

564
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: And that's sort of the ultimate claim in the diet

565
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: weight loss world. And the study that they cite to

566
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:06,479
Speaker 1: support this was published in and that tract users for

567
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: seventy two weeks. And so I think that my suggestion

568
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: is quite simple, and it's simply to conduct a longer

569
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 1: and more robust scientific study because they need academic research

570
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: on long term behavior change to support their claims. Great idea,

571
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 1: and that makes a ton of sense, right, If you're

572
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 1: going to say it, you've got to be able to

573
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: back it up. Thank you, link. I'm gonna ask you

574
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 1: to go, now, what's the one thing that you would

575
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: do to help newm better do their story. Yeah, I

576
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 1: mean I have so many issues just with the mission

577
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: statement just starting there. You know, in my opinion, it's

578
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 1: pretty steeped in health is um, which is this idea

579
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: that health is a within someone's control and their responsibility

580
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 1: is something that they have a moral obligation to fulfill.

581
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:51,760
Speaker 1: You know, the fact that they focus just on behavior

582
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: change really leaves out some of the structural systems that

583
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: can really impact someone's health, like economic status, housing status,

584
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 1: employment rachel by us in the healthcare SISM. I could

585
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: go on, and so I think the mission statement itself

586
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: is already pretty faulty logic. I think once we get

587
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: into the meat of the product, it's a weight loss tool,

588
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 1: and we also know that there's a lot of physical

589
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: and mental emotional harm that comes with intentional weight loss

590
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: and weight cycling. So my suggestion for new to better

591
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: improve their company and just do better in general, is

592
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: to scrub all of the diet and weight related messaging

593
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 1: from their platform. I know it sounds extreme, but the

594
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: way they're currently conducting business is perpetuating a lot of harm,

595
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: particularly for people who have vulnerable relationships with food and

596
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,800
Speaker 1: their body. To be in with so I would invite

597
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 1: them to untie the cognitive behavioral therapy part from the

598
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: promise of weight loss and improved health. Maybe maintain a

599
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: platform that's educational and allows people to learn about how

600
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:58,879
Speaker 1: they each have developed their own relationship with food and body,

601
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: but not make this promise that by acknowledging some of

602
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: the psychological components of eating that you'll automatically lose weight

603
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: and become a healthier person. That's a very valid idea.

604
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 1: My fear has always been that we're all going to

605
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: come up with the same ideas, but I think we

606
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: have slightly different takes on this. So um, I'm very

607
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,760
Speaker 1: curious to know what the experts think. I I submit

608
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 1: this humbly because I know very little about this, but

609
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 1: it's fair to say that there are a lot of

610
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 1: folks in the medical community who seem to believe that

611
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: the measurement that matters more to health is your body

612
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 1: mass index. And the other relevant fact to my idea

613
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: is that we have an obesity crisis in the US,

614
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 1: and all the science agrees that obesity causes a bunch

615
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 1: of health problems. So here's my idea. If Newon really

616
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 1: is a health and wellness app, then it should be

617
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: guiding us to a place where getting your b m

618
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,800
Speaker 1: I into the healthy range is the goal. So for reference,

619
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,919
Speaker 1: a healthy b m I is supposedly between eighteen point

620
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: five and about twenty five. So if you're already in

621
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,399
Speaker 1: the healthy range, let's say up to five, it should

622
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 1: discourage you from even setting a weight loss goal and

623
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: discourage you from counting calories, and maybe that functionality is

624
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 1: actually turned off in the app below a b m

625
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 1: I of to really discourage it, because the current apps

626
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 1: obsession with weight goals and calorie counting feels so much

627
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,240
Speaker 1: more like a diet app than a health app. So

628
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 1: that's my idea. I would guess that they've emphasized dieting

629
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,399
Speaker 1: because it's the ultimate sort of business model, right. It's

630
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: super hard to lose weight and keep weight off, so

631
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 1: they know you're going to fail and you keep paying,

632
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: and that's kind of the special sauce. I mean, the

633
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 1: diet industry has thrived for years on that dynamic. So

634
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,439
Speaker 1: I guess my question is do we think that there

635
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 1: is a viable business model that isn't about losing weight?

636
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: I would argue there is because people do have a

637
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 1: desire to learn and have insight about their relationship with

638
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: their body and food, But the only way we've ever

639
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: talked about that is in relation to weight, and so

640
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 1: I think neutral information would then help people make informed

641
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: decisions about how they would like to eat and maybe

642
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: even connecting that to how they feel when they eat

643
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 1: different foods. So I don't think we're losing an opportunity

644
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 1: to have people engage with the company if we were

645
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: to eliminate weight loss as the goal. Yeah, that makes sense, Taylor.

646
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 1: Do you have any any thoughts about that? Yeah, so

647
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: many thoughts, Like there's two things happening here. It's a

648
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,919
Speaker 1: business that's targeting your health, and I think that those

649
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 1: things often are just in conflict with each other. You

650
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: kind of maybe get roped into that education piece of Okay,

651
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:51,879
Speaker 1: I want to kind of start to learn, like how

652
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: the things that I eat affect me or whatever. But

653
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 1: then what they're capitalizing and it is all of the

654
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,839
Speaker 1: different signals that are all around us all the time

655
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 1: that are saying beef in lose weight. At the end

656
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: of the day, their business, they're trying to make money,

657
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 1: so they're trying to sell you something. When I reported

658
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 1: on them, the sort of growth at all costs mentality

659
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: came up all the time. And I think this is

660
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 1: a larger problem with like health tech in general, which

661
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,919
Speaker 1: is that, like these are businesses, they have to grow

662
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 1: at all costs. There is venture capital dollars behind them,

663
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 1: and so they have pressure to do so. And I

664
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: think that we need to be very wary of that

665
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 1: when it comes to like actually using these products to

666
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 1: address health concerns that we might have, Because wanting to

667
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 1: lose weight or wanting to take some control over your

668
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: health is a perfectly valid thing to want to experience,

669
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: Like we all care about our bodies. It's our vessel

670
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 1: for living. It's so hard because health and capitalism aren't

671
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: conflict with each other on a fundamental level. Yeah, I

672
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: very much agree that this sort of the big like

673
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: health and tech and and and capitalism, how do they

674
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,240
Speaker 1: work together? So newm is making money off of people

675
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 1: being promised to lose weight, not necessarily if they are

676
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 1: you know, um, sustainably. I think that goes back to

677
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 1: what Taylor said about getting a study going. We just

678
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 1: don't have the evidence, necessarily, num or otherwise that weight

679
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: loss can be sustained. But I did want to address

680
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: this thought about um tie your idea of b m I.

681
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: That's what That's what I was going to bring up,

682
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,399
Speaker 1: is that is that a valid measure? Yeah, I don't

683
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: fault you at all for thinking b m I first, Right,

684
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 1: my backgrounds in public health, so all of the research

685
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 1: we had to read use b m I as a

686
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 1: way to categorize people and then learn about different outcomes.

687
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 1: But actually there's been a lot of dialogue recently, and

688
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,800
Speaker 1: not not just recently, but I think it's gaining steam

689
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: that really can see all of the many faults within

690
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: the b m I too. So just to clarify what

691
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 1: it is, it is just a mathematic, full equation of

692
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,879
Speaker 1: height and weight that was developed by an astronomer a

693
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: long time ago, UM to just generally understand the average

694
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 1: man and also Caucasian man. Right. It's also very it's

695
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 1: a very non inclusive measure exactly, That's exactly right. And

696
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 1: so the b m I does not do a good

697
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 1: job of giving us any indication of somebody's health. The

698
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: truth is that in my experience counseling people in lots

699
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:34,959
Speaker 1: of different settings, is that people can uh work through

700
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: ways of changing parts of their behavior to better manage

701
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 1: a medical condition. It doesn't mean the lose weight or

702
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 1: that their b m I will change, but indicators of

703
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 1: health like their blood pressure, or like their cholesterol, or

704
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 1: like their feelings of well being, our stamina and all

705
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 1: those things can still be improved. So I would invite

706
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,760
Speaker 1: us to just think more broadly about what other ways

707
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 1: we can define health and make sure people are defining

708
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 1: that for themselves. Some thoughts on that, and I think

709
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: this also comes back to health tech. Health apps like

710
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 1: new who promise personalization because health is personal when you

711
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 1: sign up for an app, how much can a questionnaire

712
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 1: really gather about your health when it's trying to appeal

713
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 1: to that large of an audience. I think actually being

714
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 1: honest about the limitations of your technology and what you

715
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: can deliver to improve people's health can help to earn trust,

716
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 1: to be like, you know, we can't offer this right now,

717
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: but we're working on it. Or take this information, bring

718
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 1: it to your doctor. There are companies that do that

719
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 1: sort of thing, and I think it really from a

720
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 1: marketing perspective at least, like really helps to build that trust.

721
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 1: That's another thing is if if their body language as

722
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 1: an app was we're constantly learning, We're trying to improve

723
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 1: all the time. And so, for instance, to your your idea, Taylor,

724
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,479
Speaker 1: of them fielding a study to get at a better

725
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 1: grip on you know, what works and what doesn't in

726
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,240
Speaker 1: weight loss, that could be an ongoing thing. In other words,

727
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 1: there could be a drop down that says, these are

728
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 1: the ten studies that we have going right now, would

729
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 1: you like to participate in any of them as a user?

730
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: And you know, maybe they pay you to participate, or

731
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 1: maybe the app is free if you participate in studies,

732
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 1: or and so that the relationship that you forge with

733
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: people is you're both learning together as opposed to we

734
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: are the people who know everything and you are just

735
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 1: going to count your calories and and lose four pounds, right,

736
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 1: mm hmm exactly. I think I would like that app better.

737
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 1: Maybe I think I would to. I also think it

738
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: would be so interesting in such an opportunity for a

739
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: company to talk about health in terms that are not

740
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 1: so so quantitative. It's not necessarily something that can be

741
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 1: boiled down to one number. But for example, maybe there

742
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 1: could be encouraging someone to go to the doctor and

743
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 1: make all their fallow up appointments I think it'd be

744
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 1: interesting to think about actual actions that people could take

745
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 1: that just connect them to their health without saying and

746
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 1: then now you're also going to be rated or even

747
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 1: pitted against yourself. Here's where you were last year, look

748
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 1: at where you are now. That type of thing. Yeah,

749
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 1: I think it comes down to the value system that

750
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: they're enacting. Kind of as it stands right now, there's

751
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: a lot of value on Thinness because, for example, again

752
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 1: even going through that onboarding today, they were asking questions

753
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,360
Speaker 1: that I had seen before around you know, do you

754
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:39,800
Speaker 1: want to lose weight for an upcoming event like a

755
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 1: vacation or a wedding. That's not weight neutral. That's valuing Thinness.

756
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: And to be fair, they are trying the cognitive behavior

757
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 1: therapy functionality in there that that's maybe a place where

758
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: I'd give them credit is like they are trying to

759
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 1: differentiate themselves as a company by saying we're not just

760
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 1: wait last you know, you're you're gaining insight into yourself,

761
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:08,280
Speaker 1: but we we shouldn't be equating those two that gaining

762
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 1: and say into yourself means you need to lose weight

763
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:17,280
Speaker 1: and will right, Taylor, just I want to delve into

764
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: for a moment. The comment that you made about growth,

765
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: that impulse seems to be a very common impulse in

766
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 1: let's call it Silicon Valley startups. There is a culture

767
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 1: of rapid growth. So what would you do to address that? Yeah,

768
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:42,800
Speaker 1: so it's tricky because it's systemic. Silicon Valley is often

769
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 1: funded by venture capital dollars, and that's where the growth

770
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 1: had all costs come from. Because again, these are businesses.

771
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 1: You know, it's very common within a tech company to

772
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: also call people who use your product users, like that's

773
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 1: just the thing. And so I think that also, like

774
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: us reducing us reducing people at the end of the

775
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 1: line to users also serves to abstract that there's a

776
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 1: harsh reality to the kind of end experience of these products.

777
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 1: Makes sense. Healing a question for you. I'd love to

778
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 1: hear you just talk a little bit more about how

779
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 1: class income play into health issues. For instance, it feels

780
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 1: like inherently there may be an unmet opportunity for new

781
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,280
Speaker 1: to reach out to a more diverse set of people

782
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: to begin with, if they, you know, really want to

783
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 1: build a healthier world for everybody. Yeah, I mean, what

784
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 1: does strike me about news branding is it it's extremely whitewash,

785
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 1: and you can see just from the onboarding the graphics

786
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 1: they use that it's meant for a very narrow demographic

787
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 1: and that really is in conflict with their mission of

788
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: a healthier world or as many people as possible, you know.

789
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 1: But you know, in my experience it's just working in

790
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 1: a couple of different settings all around New York, we

791
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 1: ignore so many of the systems that impact people's health

792
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 1: and just keep laying it back on to the individual

793
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 1: and saying you're just not eating well enough, when really

794
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,240
Speaker 1: we're leaving out sort of just to name a few,

795
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,240
Speaker 1: you know, employment status, how many people are you feeding

796
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:21,720
Speaker 1: off of your paycheck? How are you getting to work?

797
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 1: And the other thing that comes to mind for me

798
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 1: is just how much bias exists in the medical community.

799
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 1: I'm including the dietetics field, the field that I work in.

800
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 1: If someone is coming in in a larger body, there's

801
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 1: an automatic assumption that they're not healthy before a provider

802
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 1: can even check a single vital and so you know,

803
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 1: this is it's all wrapped up, and I think when

804
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 1: we talk about health, we really really have to be

805
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: including that, including racial bias too, in terms of how

806
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: much we believe people are in pain when they say

807
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 1: they are, or how much do we believe them when

808
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 1: they say they eat vegetables. I think there's just a

809
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 1: lot of bias that gets integrated into the healthcare process

810
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: um that we have to be really honest about. That

811
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,240
Speaker 1: brings up another thing for me, which I'd love to

812
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 1: hear either of you have an opinion about. You know,

813
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 1: it's a really hard thing as I think about it,

814
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 1: but I was watching Bill Maher talk about it the

815
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 1: other day. There's the body positivity movement, which seems like

816
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 1: a really good thing, just helping people feel better about

817
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 1: where they're at physically. At the same time, there are

818
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: real implications, like health implications for obesity, and we also

819
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:41,760
Speaker 1: have created a a system where if you are lower income,

820
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 1: it is much harder to find and be able to

821
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 1: afford healthy food. And so it's like there's this vortex

822
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 1: of forces all in opposition to one another, Like where

823
00:50:55,680 --> 00:51:01,320
Speaker 1: does body positivity meet the medical need to a void obesity?

824
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? How do you how do

825
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:07,240
Speaker 1: you adjudicate that? You know, the obesity crisis. It sounds

826
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 1: scary when you talk about it, but really what we

827
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,439
Speaker 1: know through the research is that we actually cannot draw

828
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: a causal relationship between weight status and health outcomes. Things

829
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,720
Speaker 1: are correlated, I'm not saying they aren't. In the research,

830
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 1: we're always looking at correlation verse causation, because that's really

831
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 1: where we can understand true relationships and how to improve

832
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 1: the health outcome. And so when we talk about the

833
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:35,359
Speaker 1: obesity epidemic, it continues to perpetuate this idea that it's

834
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:39,920
Speaker 1: about losing weight when we really want to acknowledge that

835
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 1: there's no single disease that someone in a larger body

836
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,800
Speaker 1: gets that someone in a smaller body doesn't get. People

837
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 1: in smaller bodies get high blood pressure, they get cancer,

838
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 1: they have strokes. This so absolutely exactly, So I really

839
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:58,800
Speaker 1: feel it's important like to pull back on that, but don't. Yeah,

840
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,919
Speaker 1: and if forgive me if I'm wrong about this, but

841
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,320
Speaker 1: maybe I've been brainwashed, Like I have the strong impression

842
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 1: that people who are to use the term obese are

843
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 1: at higher risk for some of those things like diabetes.

844
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:14,279
Speaker 1: Is that not true or is that true? What we

845
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 1: do know is that they can manage their diabetes and

846
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: they can improve um the way there condition shows up

847
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 1: in their body in ways that don't necessarily lead to

848
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 1: the weight loss that they're told they need to achieve.

849
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 1: You know, we could be talking about gentle movement, we

850
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:34,280
Speaker 1: could be talking about stress reduction, medication management, and eating.

851
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 1: But if we were to frame it like if you

852
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 1: just were to lose twenty pounds, I'm pretty sure your

853
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 1: blood suckers would even out. This is not helpful language

854
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 1: to the person who's trying to manage their condition, and

855
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 1: it doesn't really give them the tangible information to take

856
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: control or feel empowered. As I think about that, it

857
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 1: maybe it's about essentially the value exchange between them and

858
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 1: its customers that feels off. It's like Noon could be

859
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:06,320
Speaker 1: doing more to add value for people beyond just helping

860
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:09,359
Speaker 1: them count calories and lose a few pounds, right, They

861
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 1: really could transform the relationship that people have with food

862
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 1: and with their bodies. But they're not really doing that yet.

863
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:20,879
Speaker 1: And my hunch would be that they're not doing that

864
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 1: because maybe they haven't figured out a way for that

865
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 1: to serve their bottom line of making money and growing,

866
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: and maybe there's an opportunity just to add like for

867
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 1: Noon to not just give information but also offer support

868
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:37,760
Speaker 1: as they're attempting to do right now at their newon

869
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 1: coaches because just as many people who have attempted a diet,

870
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 1: I'm guessing that's the same number of people who have

871
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 1: been burned by a diet and are looking for other

872
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 1: ways to connect with food and people who have gone

873
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:53,759
Speaker 1: through similar experiences them. So perhaps it's an opportunity to

874
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:57,720
Speaker 1: be UM kind of like a like a support network

875
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 1: where you could, I don't know, create a community in

876
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 1: his innocence UM. So it's not just information exchange, but

877
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,759
Speaker 1: as connected to each other. Yeah, I think there could

878
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: be valid that's interesting. Yeah, Okay, So are there any

879
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:15,799
Speaker 1: other questions or ideas or topics that we have not

880
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 1: touched on that you think our listeners should should know about.

881
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 1: The one thing that I think when I reported on

882
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 1: newm that stuck out to me was the sort of

883
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 1: tactics they were using, at least for me, felt very

884
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:34,840
Speaker 1: triggering for someone who struggled in my adolescence and beyond

885
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:38,319
Speaker 1: with an eating disorder and disordered eating. I felt a

886
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:40,840
Speaker 1: little like, oh, it must just be me. When I

887
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 1: first tried the app and then I started to report

888
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,319
Speaker 1: on it months later, and going through the app store

889
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:51,799
Speaker 1: reviews and seeing so many folks echo the experience that

890
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:55,600
Speaker 1: I felt when I tested it out, or even going

891
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 1: so far as to say like this triggered, like this

892
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:02,279
Speaker 1: started and needing disorder. I think that those apper views

893
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 1: are really alarming, big red flag. I was really pleasantly

894
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 1: surprised to see when I went through the onboarding today

895
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 1: that they now screen for. They asked you if you

896
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:16,799
Speaker 1: actively have an eating disorder. My my other idea, and

897
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 1: I think it's a quick fix, is just also screening

898
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 1: for anyone with a history of an eating disorder. Agreed? Okay,

899
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:28,799
Speaker 1: So on this show, we end every every session with

900
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:33,799
Speaker 1: a tool that we call the BS Index, and the

901
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:37,880
Speaker 1: way it works is it goes from zero to a hundred,

902
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 1: zero being the best, zero bs on being the worst.

903
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 1: BS so on a scale of zero to a hundred

904
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 1: in terms of New really living its purpose to help

905
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 1: as many people as possible live healthier lives through behavior change.

906
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 1: What BS score would we give New I'll ask you

907
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 1: to go first. Yeah, oh gosh, I know I'm going

908
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:10,279
Speaker 1: to be pretty tough on them. I would I would

909
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 1: give them like an um uh, just because I think

910
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,400
Speaker 1: most of as we've talked about, it just sounds like

911
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 1: they're trying to make money, and they have not been

912
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 1: that creative in terms of a way to make money.

913
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:25,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I give them a couple of points credit

914
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 1: because they do try to do it. I have an

915
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 1: educational component, but I just think they actually weaponize that

916
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:34,359
Speaker 1: further into saying if you change this, then you would

917
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 1: just eat less. So I think they're pretty full of it. Okay, Taylor, Yeah,

918
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:44,400
Speaker 1: I think I have to be tough to and be

919
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:47,800
Speaker 1: somewhere in the nineties. I'll give them like a ninety four.

920
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:51,919
Speaker 1: When I think about a lot with new is that

921
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 1: people wanting to take control of their health and wait

922
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 1: is not a bad thing. I think that for many

923
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 1: people it can improve their mental health, it can improve

924
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: their actual health like physical health. So I would never

925
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 1: fault people for using it. For certain people, it might

926
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:11,120
Speaker 1: be delivering on the promise, which is why I would

927
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 1: give them a couple of points. But I think as

928
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:16,920
Speaker 1: a company they have a lot of things to work on. Yeah,

929
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 1: great story, they just need to do it right and

930
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 1: they're not doing it yet. So I think those scores

931
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 1: are I mean, they're tough, but they're fair. Okay. I

932
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:30,360
Speaker 1: want to thank you both for being on the show today.

933
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 1: This was a great conversation, thank you. Definitely alright, folks,

934
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 1: it's time for Noon to officially step on the BS scale.

935
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 1: On the one hand, they do take a more holistic

936
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 1: approach to weight loss that some people find genuinely helpful.

937
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 1: On the other hand, we still live in a world

938
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 1: that values thinness, and instead of changing that conversation, Noon

939
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 1: is profiting from and in some cases, exacerbating the insecurities

940
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 1: of the people who use it. You heard our two

941
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 1: panelists give new really high scores, while dr Ogden gave

942
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 1: it a more diplomatic forty. And there's one more opinion

943
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:18,160
Speaker 1: to consider, Hi, TI. If I were reading NEWM on

944
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 1: the B S Scale, I'd say the food portion tracking

945
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 1: of the app definitely changed my relationship to food for

946
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 1: the worst while I was using it. But the mindfulness

947
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 1: and the CBT portion and the slowing down when I

948
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 1: eat and realizing why I'm eating what I'm eating if

949
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 1: it's because I'm stressed, I really liked. So if I

950
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:46,919
Speaker 1: were giving them a B S score, I would give

951
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 1: them a sixty five because I did learn a lot

952
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 1: of good things on there, But ultimately it was detrimental

953
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 1: for my mental health. I was really caught off guard

954
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 1: by her reaction. Haileyway into this with an open mind,

955
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 1: but also with a healthy skepticism. We are called calling

956
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 1: bullshit after all, and still was profoundly impacted by going

957
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 1: through the new process and another factor in the final

958
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 1: BS score. In August, NEWM announced several changes. They've increased

959
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:23,560
Speaker 1: their calorie flexibility and done away with the red food rating,

960
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:28,680
Speaker 1: making all previously red foods orange and saying that quote

961
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 1: changing the color signifying high density foods to orange is

962
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 1: just as intuitive for our numbers, but doesn't carry the

963
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:41,760
Speaker 1: same emotional or cultural influence as the color red. They've

964
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 1: also added a new feature that allows NEWM users to

965
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:48,600
Speaker 1: manually change their daily calories to meet the needs of

966
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 1: a more diverse population, and they've become less rigid about

967
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 1: daily weigh ins instead encouraging more flexibility around the scale.

968
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:01,280
Speaker 1: To me, all of this says that new really listens

969
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 1: to their customers and welcomes change, but the current experience

970
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 1: still focuses too much on weight and too little on

971
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 1: the attributes they claim to value in their purpose health,

972
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:18,040
Speaker 1: wellness and behavior change. So I'm giving now a score

973
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:22,440
Speaker 1: of sixty four that puts new in our red zone

974
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:25,959
Speaker 1: on the BS index, the zone where we believe it's

975
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:30,360
Speaker 1: already harming their reputation and will eventually harm their business.

976
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 1: Saves you Young and Artem Petakov. If either of you

977
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:38,200
Speaker 1: ever want to come on the show to discuss anything

978
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 1: we've touched on today, please know that you both have

979
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 1: an open invitation. And if you're starting a purpose led

980
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 1: business or thinking about beginning the journey of transformation to

981
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 1: become one, here are three things you can take away

982
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:57,240
Speaker 1: from today's episode. One, if you're a weight loss business,

983
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:01,120
Speaker 1: say it, and if you don't say it, don't be it.

984
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 1: NOOM claims its purpose is to help as many people

985
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:09,480
Speaker 1: as possible live healthier lives through behavior change. Great purpose,

986
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:13,520
Speaker 1: but a massive amount of the current new experience is

987
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:19,640
Speaker 1: devoted to weight loss. Not great. Two. Once you've decided

988
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 1: what your purposes, be an activist. Beyond passively changing the

989
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:27,840
Speaker 1: app experience. There's an opportunity for Newon to lead a

990
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 1: huge shift in our culture by getting busy educating people

991
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:38,240
Speaker 1: about where real health comes from. Three. Money is important.

992
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:42,000
Speaker 1: If your company is a body, then money is like blood.

993
01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:45,439
Speaker 1: Without it, you won't make it. But when it comes

994
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:49,560
Speaker 1: to money, be long term, greedy, trying to maximize your

995
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:53,280
Speaker 1: profitability in the short term is a playbook long followed

996
01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 1: by Silicon Valley vcs that we're now discovering has some

997
01:01:56,840 --> 01:02:01,000
Speaker 1: deeply toxic side effects. Noom needs to be patient and

998
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:05,400
Speaker 1: build a real health company. As an entrepreneur, you need

999
01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 1: to be patient too. I want to give a really

1000
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:14,040
Speaker 1: special thank you to our very own Haley Pascalites, who

1001
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 1: was willing to thoroughly document her personal experience here. Haley,

1002
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 1: You're a shining star and we appreciate you. If this

1003
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:27,760
Speaker 1: episode gave you a healthy appetite for detecting more bs,

1004
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 1: subscribe to the Calling Bullshit podcast on the I Heart

1005
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to people

1006
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:37,680
Speaker 1: speaking to your ears. Please take a minute to rate

1007
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 1: us on iTunes and let us know what you think

1008
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:43,040
Speaker 1: of the show. More reviews help more people find us,

1009
01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 1: and thanks to our production team Hannah Beale, Amanda Ginsburg,

1010
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 1: d s Moss, Hailey Pascalites, Parker Silzer, and Basil Soaper.

1011
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:57,080
Speaker 1: Calling Bullshit was created by co Collective and it's hosted

1012
01:02:57,120 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 1: by Me Time onto you. Thanks for listening.