WEBVTT - TechStuff Explores the Universe with Daniel and Kelly 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:12.800 Welcome to Tech Stuff, a production from iHeartRadio. Hey thereon 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:15.040 Welcome to Tech Stuff. I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. I'm 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:17.120 an executive producer with iHeart Podcast And how the tech 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:20.840 are you? Yes, I am excited. That is why I 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:24.759 had the crazy high energy introduction for this episode. That's 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:31.280 because I have two phenomenal guests on today's episode. They 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:34.960 are the hosts of Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe. There 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:40.120 are two brilliant scientists here to talk science and tech 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:43.760 and depictions of science and popular media and how they 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:46.360 always get at one hundred percent right all the time. 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:49.680 It's Daniel and it's Kelly. Welcome to Tech Stuff. 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:51.680 Thanks very much, Thank you. 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:53.440 I wish you could call me every day to cheer 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:56.000 me up with with you know, a nice introduction just 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:56.240 like that. 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:59.200 Oh, I'd be happy too, I'd be happy to My 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:02.040 rates are very and pretty soon I'm going to be 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:03.840 looking for a gig. I don't know if you have 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:06.880 heard this, but I'm actually stepping away from hosting tech 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:08.040 Stuff in the new year. 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:10.440 Oh what are you going to do instead? 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:15.000 There's a giant, cloudy question mark in my near future. Actually, 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:18.160 I will be my listeners know that I'm stepping away. 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:20.560 I did an episode talking about it. But yeah, I've 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:22.920 been hosting Tech Stuff for sixteen and a half years. 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:25.880 I've got more than twenty three hundred episodes under my belt, 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:28.080 and I thought it was time for someone else to 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:31.800 talk about tech for a while, and so I'm stepping 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:34.800 back in early January, and I will be focusing on 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:40.600 executive producer duties moving forward, potentially hosting the occasional episode 0:01:40.600 --> 0:01:42.959 and or show in the future. Nothing is set in stone, 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:45.800 but I'm excited to be able to kind of shift 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:46.440 some gears. 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:48.480 Happy retirement, Thank you. 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:51.440 I mean, I'll still be working like a crazy person, 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:53.320 it just won't be I just won't be creating three 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:56.120 episodes a week. But I'm so glad to have you here. Daniel, 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:58.279 Welcome back to the show. I don't know if you remember, 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:01.200 but years ago you did a little guest appearance on 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:03.880 Tech Stuff, And I'm sure you don't remember this, but 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:06.240 I do because it's an important moment in my life. 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:09.679 You name me an honorary engineer in that episode, and 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:14.360 I've been holding onto that title like with a death 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:15.359 grip ever since. 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:18.720 He hasn't given me that title. 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:21.200 Yeah, I'm not sure that title is something you should 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:24.720 be proud of. You know, scientists and engineers are usually 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:27.200 sort of, you know, tooth and nail against each other, 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:28.440 so I'm not sure I meant that in a. 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:30.440 Positive pay Oh, that's fair, that's fair. I think we 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:34.040 were chatting about how I think of engineers as people 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:36.440 who view the world as a series of problems that 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:39.640 need to be solved, and by the end of it 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:41.880 you said I was an honorary engineer, which made sense 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:43.800 because I do have an Android phone, and I feel 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:47.200 like that's a device made by engineers for engineers. 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:48.720 That's like sixty percent of it. 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:51.760 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Like the iPhone is incredibly intuitive 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:53.560 and the Android is it does stuff. 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:57.600 So yeah, well my engineer dad has an Android, so 0:02:57.680 --> 0:02:58.680 that's totally consistent. 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:01.000 It tracks right, Like, well, there we go. That's not 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:03.480 confirmation by us or anything. We're just going to go 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:06.440 with that. Yes, So here on tech stuff, we have 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:10.280 this kind of underlying philosophy which does not directly relate 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:12.560 to tech. It relates to the direction of the show, 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:16.440 which is I say, it's a combination of creative thinking approach, 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:21.119 it's compassion, and it's critical thinking, and I'm curious if 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:24.000 you think of a similar philosophy for your show. 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:28.640 I think our show is all about curiosity and excitement 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:32.639 because we viewed the whole universe as like a big mystery. 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:34.880 That because we viewed the whole universe as like a 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:38.160 big mystery to unravel, and every new little piece of 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:41.200 truth that we pry away at, the truth minds. You know, 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:44.280 where we go to work every day is an exciting discovery. 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:47.920 It's always fantastic. Whatever the universe chooses to reveal to us, 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:48.960 it's always amazing. 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:52.400 Yeah, I think enthusiasm is huge. We're really excited about 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:54.880 the information we've managed to extract from the Earth and 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:56.760 all the cool stuff that's left to figure out. 0:03:56.880 --> 0:03:59.480 Yeah. I've been listening to your show and I just 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:01.480 want to say I also want to congratulate you on 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.800 your incredible sense of timing because we're heading up to 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:07.400 Thanksgiving and then the most recent episode I listened to 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:11.200 was all about cannibalism, and I just felt that you 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:14.960 you really you planned those thematic shows really well. 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:17.840 Yeah, you know, we put a lot of thought into 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:21.000 each episode, and we do have a like an actual 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:25.159 Thanksgiving episode coming out on Thanksgiving where we Daniel. So 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:27.760 Daniel talks about cannibalism a lot, even though he's not 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:30.360 the biologist. Did you manage to get a reference to 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:31.960 cannibalism into that episode a bit? 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:35.440 Absolutely? Yes, Okay, cannibalism and aliens. I always got to 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:37.640 work those two angles into every episode somehow. 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:42.279 Yeah, So it's enthusiasm, creativity, cannibalism, aliens. That's what our podcasts. 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:44.240 Is kind of amazing that you didn't name the show 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:44.960 What's Eating You. 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:50.920 I had a paper published called What's Gotten Into You, 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:53.600 and it was all about how parasites changed behavior. But 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:55.520 I guess it's not What's Eating You, but it's it 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:57.599 was What's Gotten into You? Anyway, it was I felt 0:04:57.680 --> 0:04:58.839 very good about that time well. 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:00.280 And that was kind of like one of the things 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:02.760 that sort of was the genesis of my idea for 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:05.720 this episode was that talk about you know, your work 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:10.160 in science and then how you view the media depiction 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:13.560 of science. You know, I'm sure there's like part of 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:15.520 you correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure there's 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:18.240 part of you that just appreciates. Oh well, obviously they 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:20.520 had to do this for the narrative to work, like 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:24.760 this is a storytelling convention, it's required. They're not presenting 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:27.360 this as if it's hard science. And so therefore, if 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:29.560 they do the Arthur C. Clark thing where they just 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.479 use science as a way to stand in for magic, 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:35.719 that's okay. And then there's probably part of you that's like, cush, 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:40.440 darn it, that's not what particle accelerators do. And I 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:44.919 wish they would stop because people are getting the wrong idea. So, Kelly, 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:46.880 one of the ones I mentioned to you was there's 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:49.000 the show The Last of Us, which actually they did 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:52.840 a fairly decent job in talking about how the fungal 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:56.839 parasites that can affect insects and control them and their 0:05:56.839 --> 0:06:00.640 behavior to some extent, how that really wouldn't trate to 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:03.800 more complex life forms. They actually go so far as 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:06.480 to say that in the intro, so they lampshaded it 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:08.920 quite a bit, right, They said, this is not really possible, 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:11.560 and yet hear it happened in the show, which of 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:15.680 course dates back to the actual video game that inspired 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:18.719 that series. So when you see things like that, like, 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:22.719 what's your reaction having actually written about these kinds of 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:25.320 parasites that do alter behaviors? 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:28.839 My philosophy in general is that you know fiction is 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:30.880 it just it's a totally different thing. And as long 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:33.760 as they create worlds that are consistent and then they 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:35.920 stick with the rules that they've made for their world, 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:37.760 I'm cool with that. The only thing that gets me 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:40.680 grumpy is when people like change their rules halfway through. 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:42.760 Like I hated Lost because it was like I thought 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:44.680 we were in the real world and now there's like 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:47.760 smoke monsters and like, yeah, anyway, so I thought the 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:48.680 Last of Us was great. 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:50.960 Oh gosh, I have a feeling that you and I 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:55.480 would have some of the best post viewing coffee sessions 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:58.599 for various shows and movies, because you have hit upon 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:03.560 one of my most passionate topics, which is consistency and rules. 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:06.280 As much as as I enjoyed the Buffy the Vampire 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:10.080 Slayer television show when it first aired, I got consistently 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:12.440 more upset with that show as it went on, as 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:15.000 I felt that it was violating the rules that it 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:18.320 itself had set up in previous seasons. And meanwhile, all 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:20.840 my friends were Buffy fans, were like, why are you 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.320 so upset about this? I'm like, it's the easiest thing 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:25.440 in the world to be consistent. You have to go 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:27.600 out of your way to be inconsistent. 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:30.600 We should get together for coffee because you know, I 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:33.520 feel like often the you need to be consistent about 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:36.080 the rules. People like aren't the first one to invite 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:39.000 to the parties, right, so we have to stick together. 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:42.640 Yes, we're the ones that somehow get overlooked when the 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:45.000 invitations go out. I don't understand it either. 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:47.160 It's not a fair world we live in. 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:47.760 It is not. 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:50.320 And you know, if you're watching like a murder mystery, 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:52.760 everybody expects you to follow the rules, right, Like if 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:54.800 there was a clue laid in act one, you expect 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:57.760 that to still be relevant in act three. But somehow 0:07:57.800 --> 0:07:59.960 if it's science fiction and like, hey, we could just 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.160 those rules out the window. You know, let's be fair 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:04.280 about the standards we apply. 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.440 Yes, absolutely, same thing's true for horror movies. By the way, 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:12.040 if your horror movie is predicated upon information purposefully withheld 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:15.360 from the audience, and you can't expect me to be 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:17.320 wold when you have your big reveal, you need to 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:19.240 set that stuff up in subtle ways that I don't 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:22.600 pick up on, but then can appreciate at the end. Yes, amen, 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:24.600 I say that as someone who just watched the horror 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:26.480 movie this past weekend, and I was like, Oh, that's 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:29.520 that's not Chekhov's gun, but that is Chekhov's wooden plank 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:32.720 with nails sticking out of it. People who have seen 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:35.720 it now know what I'm talking about. Daniel, like, same 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:37.920 sort of thing for you. I mean, you've obviously worked 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:41.760 on some of the most famous particle physics projects in 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:45.240 the world, and not only have we seen interesting depictions 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:49.080 of that in fiction media, but obviously the news media 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:52.920 had all sorts of speculation as to what was going 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:56.319 to happen once the large Hadron collider was operating at 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:59.120 full power. People may not remember that, but there were 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:03.720 so many stories about everything from time traveling, conspiracy theories 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:09.000 involving birds dropping twigs down ventilation shafts, to some sort 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:12.160 of message from the future being sent back saying, for 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:14.720 the love of all that's holy, don't turn it on. 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:18.439 What was your reaction as all this was unfolding. 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:21.200 I thought it was sort of amazing and hilarious, but 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:24.920 also terrifying. I mean, it's always fun to see your 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:28.040 own work depicted in the popular media, and you know, 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:30.640 Stephen Colbert when he was still on The Daily Show, 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:32.920 did a whole bit about whether we should turn on 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:36.520 the LEDC and understanding and probability and you know, it's 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:38.480 not safe for work, but people should definitely go check 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.920 that out because it's really fun. But it's also a 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:44.840 little terrifying to see these concepts that you've worked on, 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:48.240 these projects that you're passionate about, sort of leave your 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:52.080 control and enter the broader cultural conversation where you don't 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:55.480 really necessarily have a voice to combat the misinformation. And 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:58.960 there's a lot of well meaning misinformation out there, people 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:01.319 who try to cover this stuff and just don't get 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:04.319 the details right. And I don't have, or it didn't 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:07.800 at the time, at least have a platform to be like, hey, actually, 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.720 this is how it works, and I don't want to 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:13.160 throw cold water on your ideas because the reality is 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:16.320 much more interesting and fascinating, right. That's the thing that 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:18.800 frustrates me is when they get the story wrong, but 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:22.240 the real story is even more exciting. It's even more 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:25.559 clickbaity than the misconceptions. 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:28.640 When you reach a certain level with science, obviously, it 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:31.280 gets to a point where there is no easy way 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:35.959 to communicate the topic to a general audience. You're either 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:38.440 going to have to spend an an ordinate amount of 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:41.120 time setting it up and building upon a foundation and 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:44.000 hoping that your audience stays with you for the entirety 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:48.320 of that, or you run the risk of oversimplifying, hoping 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:50.960 that they get the gist of it, knowing that you're 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:54.640 going to be leaving out some important nuance that it 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:56.880 really is needed to have a full understanding of or 0:10:56.920 --> 0:11:00.120 even a working understanding of the topic. That's something that 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:03.000 I struggle with all the time on tech stuff, right, Like, 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:09.080 there are tech topics that are really complex, and how 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:12.160 do you approach discussing this in a way that is 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:16.760 I think responsible, so that your audience has an understanding. 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.680 And of course I always advocate that people look into things, 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:23.560 read up more about them if they're interested, to do 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:26.120 more exploration, because there's only so much I can say 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:30.040 in an hour long episode. But you know that still 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:33.960 weighs on me. That being said, sometimes there are layups 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:38.480 out there where you'll see something portrayed and you'll just say, well, 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:42.559 that's just wrong, that's just wrong. It's not even remotely 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.120 in the realm of possibility. I'm reminded. I wish I 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:47.880 could remember which procedural it was. It was one of 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:51.160 those cop procedural shows where there's always something about hacking. 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:55.240 So there was a scene where there are two characters 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:59.960 simultaneously typing on the same keyboard while trying to counteract 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.280 to hacker who's trying to get into a system. And 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:06.240 I thought, in one world, can a keyboard accept two 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:10.120 separate forms of input at the same time and haven't 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:12.880 mean anything. It would just be like me just smashing 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:16.200 my hands randomly on keys. This makes no sense. I'm like, 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:18.079 it couldn't have made sense when they shot it. Did 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:21.559 they do this on purpose? As like a wind up? 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:24.240 So there are moments like that that stand out as. 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:26.720 A parasitologist, as person who studies parasites. There was an 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:30.120 episode of Grey's Anatomy where someone had neurosistas yorcosis. So 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:32.720 it's this big fluid filled sack filled with tapeworms in 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.400 your brains that causes nervous system problems. Yeah, and it's 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:38.160 a very delicate procedure to remove that sack because if 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:41.720 it breaks, you have this crazy like neuroimmune response to 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:43.800 the sack and it's really bad. But they pulled it 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:46.760 out in the reveal it was a nematode, and all right, 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:48.760 so I get upset. No one else would care. That's 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.720 a totally different phylum than the actual parasite that causes 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:54.160 the problem. But it was like a squiggly worm that 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:56.120 fell back in and they were like reaching around trying 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:58.200 to get it, and I'm like, you're screwing up the 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:00.720 brain and like, actually it's a sack. It's not a 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:04.720 like the little nematode. Anyway, I was Everything was wrong 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:06.000 about that. That kept me up at night. 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:08.000 See now that makes me think of the Adventures of 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:10.920 Buckaroo Bonzai where there's a moment early in that film 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:15.280 where Buckaroo Bonzi, who is a rocket scientist neurosurgeon rock 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:19.880 star wow. Peter Weller played him. Fantastic, Very slow movie 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:23.720 nineteen eighties science fiction movie. John Lithgal plays a crazy 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:26.280 alien in it. If you haven't seen it, it's worth watching. 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.240 But it is slow paced and convoluted. 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:31.240 You're not selling it well. 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:33.720 I have to warn because I introduced a friend of mine, 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:37.319 a millennial, to this film, and she was like, that 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:41.120 was the slowest, most confusing science fiction film I've ever seen. 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:46.520 I'm like, there's a rock star neuroscientist, rocket scientist, race 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.080 car driver as the main character. How could you not 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:51.320 love it? But there's a moment where they're doing brain 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:55.360 surgery where that character says to his surgical assistant, no, no, no, 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:58.120 don't pull on that. You don't know what's connected to Like, okay, Well, 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:00.880 that seems realistic to me. That seems like realistic depiction 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.320 of brain surgery. I think I'm okay with that, Daniel. 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:06.160 Are there any like depictions that you have seen that 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:08.920 kind of stand out in your your mind? As this 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:11.160 might have been a very creative way to tell a story, 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:15.160 but it was a terrible way to leverage actual science 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:16.360 that you are familiar with. 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:19.280 Well, I have a lot of respect for science fiction authors, 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:21.960 and I get what they're going for. Often they read 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:25.520 some new idea or they hear an explanation, and then 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:28.120 inspire some story they imagine that they could tell only 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:31.400 in some alternative universe. And with Kelly, I agree, like, 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:33.320 it doesn't have to follow the rules of our universe 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:35.600 as long as they are consistent about it. But the 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:38.520 thing that does frustrate me is that I think it 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:40.480 is possible for a lot of folks out there to 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:43.840 understand the subtle nuances of the science as long as 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:46.280 it's explained well and on our show at least, we 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:50.160 really believe that the science can be communicated clearly and effectively, 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:53.240 that it's possible for people to really get these things. 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:54.880 I think there's a lot of folks out there who 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:58.560 really love science and maybe wanted to do it, but 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:00.360 something happened in their life they didn't end up being 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:02.280 a scientist, and so they want to stay up on 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:04.440 the details and they want to hear more than just like, 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:06.760 here's the pop size story. You've heard a lot about 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:10.000 quantum mechanics and entanglement and to really have it connect 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:12.160 for them, and that's what we try to do on 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:15.040 the show. But to directly answer your question, one of 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:17.040 the things that sort of grinds my gears a lot 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:21.440 is when people use like two entangled particles to communicate 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:23.880 faster than light. And you know, you hear this in 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:27.120 pop science all the time, and there are subtle nuances there, 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:30.240 like there is something happening faster than light when two 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:33.720 entangled particles collapse. But you can't use it to send 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:36.920 messages across the stars, as much as I wish you could. 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:41.080 Right right that whole concept of the entangled particles. Usually 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:44.600 we're talking about something like spin particle spin. So if 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:47.200 one's spinning up, the other one's spinning down, and they're 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:51.280 entangled together, and no matter how far apart you separate 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:56.000 these two particles until the system collapses, until that entanglement breaks, 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:58.080 then you're still going to have one spinning up, one 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:00.720 spinning down. There'll always be in that connect. But then 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:04.880 once you observe it all breaks down and that connection 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:07.920 is severed and you can't do anything useful with it. Yeah, 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:11.200 we've used that discussion when talking about things like quantum computers, 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:15.760 when talking about entanglement and superposition and all these really 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:19.720 interesting ideas. I'm fascinated with the methods people have created 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:25.120 to try and take advantage of these quantum effects. And 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.200 to me, like, that's one of those areas where I 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:32.320 definitely run up against the barriers of my ignorance. Right, 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:36.800 I understand up to a point, and then after that 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:40.320 I'm like, WHOA, Okay, there was a leap made here 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:46.280 that I can't follow, and I from a kind of 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:49.320 like a high level concept I can understand, but it's 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:52.800 so counterintuitive based upon just my day to day experience 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:56.000 with physics on the macro level, that you might as 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:58.360 well be describing a magic spell to me, because it's 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:01.280 so it's so unusual. I mean, I can see why 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:03.920 Einstein would call it spooky action at a distance, right 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:07.240 like it's it seems like it doesn't make any any 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:07.879 real sense. 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:10.399 And that's the incredible thing about the universe, right it 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:13.120 is this bizarre mystery. It seems like it doesn't make sense. 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:16.120 And yet over the years and the decades and the centuries, 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:18.600 we have slowly chipped away at the truth and always 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:21.879 found some explanation. And that explanation is often not what 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:24.480 we expected, not what we thought it was going to be, 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.959 and mind blowing when we understand it. But amazingly it 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:30.600 is possible to understand this universe like we have no 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:33.480 guarantee of that. It could be that eventually the universe 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:37.720 runs on some systems, some mathematics that are beyond our comprehension, 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:40.639 but so far we've always been able with our puny 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:42.280 little ape brains to figure it out. 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:43.679 But for some of this stuff, we're still in the 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:45.800 process of trying to understand it. And so, you know, you 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:47.359 were saying that you get to a point where you're like, oh, 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:50.199 my brain just can't make that leap. While talking to Daniel, 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:52.080 I've learned that a lot of the places where I 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:54.359 was like, oh, my brain can't make that leap. When 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:56.040 I talked to Daniel, He's like, oh, we just we 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:57.600 don't know why that happens yet, and I'm like, no, 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:01.240 we just hit against everyone's under standing there. And so, 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:03.160 you know, I think that's a great thing about science 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:05.159 if it's explained well, you can let people know that, like, no, 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:06.440 we're all we all get a wall. 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:09.480 Eventually, we'll be back in just a moment to talk 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:13.800 more about science and science, depictions of media, and who 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:17.040 knows what else with Daniel and Kelly after these messages. 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:28.360 When I used to write for How Stuff Works, there 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:31.280 was a point where I was given the assignment of 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:35.520 how string theory works. So I was I was diving 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:40.080 into everything string theory. And I'm an English Lit major, y'all. 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:43.920 My major was in Shakespeare, and I can rattle Shakespeare 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:46.439 off like nobody's business. But you asked me to describe 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:48.560 string theory, and we got ourselves a problem. 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:50.760 I want to hear a sonnet about string theory. 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:52.639 You know what? Give me a week and I'll have 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:58.360 it for you. I'm assuming you mean Shakespearean not Edwardians, 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:02.200 because you're Spencerian. Okay, good, I can do that. I'm 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:06.280 an expert at Shakespearean's on It's excellent. I remember distinctly 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:09.600 I watched a I think it was a Nova special 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:13.480 about string theory, and I'm taking notes and I mean, 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:16.560 I've got like like seven eight pages of handwritten notes 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:19.959 and I'm just sweating bullets watching this and everyone's really 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:22.639 a great communicator on that special. And it gets to 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:25.040 one point where one of the experts is being interviewed 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:26.760 and he says, yeah, I think this is the point 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:29.040 where I just have to admit I don't understand how 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:30.840 it works. I just know that this is what the 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:33.199 math says. And I'm like, oh my gosh, if you 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:37.679 don't know, what hope is there for me? But that, 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:39.920 to me is fascinating. It's one of the reasons why, 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:43.600 by the way, I love doing a tech podcast is 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:50.439 that technology is science manifest into devices and gadgets, and 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:54.200 it's proof that science works, right because if science didn't work, 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:57.680 the tech wouldn't work. So I've always pointed at like 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:03.479 we are constantly surrounded by proof that the scientific approach works, 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:06.640 because otherwise the things that we come in contact with 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:10.920 on a minute by minute basis wouldn't function absolutely. 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:13.119