Speaker 1: Hi everyone, It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello friends,
Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of Work in Progress. Today
Speaker 1: I am sitting down with someone whose brain I am
Speaker 1: absolutely obsessed with, and whose TikTok I am also obsessed with.
Speaker 1: Today we are joined by none other than Aaron Parnas.
Speaker 1: He is a lawyer, he is an activist, and he
Speaker 1: also happens to be the son of Lov Parness. Yes,
Speaker 1: the gentleman who was arrested for his role in the
Speaker 1: whole Trump Ukraine scandal. My goodness. Aaron grew up in
Speaker 1: a staunchly Republican family, was a Trump voter in twenty sixteen,
Speaker 1: and then was inside the first administration and saw things
Speaker 1: that really will come up to the reality of what
Speaker 1: most of America is up against with an incoming oligarchy.
Speaker 1: He has since become an activist in support of the
Speaker 1: Democratic Party. Sure, but I would really just say in
Speaker 1: support of Americans, particularly school children. It was the twenty
Speaker 1: twenty two Russian invasion of Ukraine that led Aaron Parnas
Speaker 1: to TikTok. He actually works as a securities litigation attorney
Speaker 1: at a law firm in Washington, d C. But it
Speaker 1: was his personal connection to Ukraine and family on the
Speaker 1: ground that really alerted him to the fact that American
Speaker 1: media wasn't covering the whole story. So Aaron decided to
Speaker 1: get on the internet and help. Not only is he
Speaker 1: an impressive leader and the kind of guy who's bringing
Speaker 1: Walter Cronkite energy back to the world of social media news,
Speaker 1: but he's also a lawyer. He graduated with honors from
Speaker 1: law school at the age of twenty one. Yeah, this
Speaker 1: is a guy who got bumped up to high school
Speaker 1: at the age of fourteen. And in twenty twenty he
Speaker 1: published a memoir titled Trump First, How the President and
Speaker 1: his associates turned their backs on me and my family. Today,
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about what that was like, seeing
Speaker 1: from the inside of a scandal, how these enormous systems
Speaker 1: of politics work, and how it really led him to
Speaker 1: interrogate himself, his beliefs, and why he believes that truth
Speaker 1: and trustworthy information should actually be the thing we are
Speaker 1: all the most loyal to. As of today, he's amassed
Speaker 1: more than three million followers on TikTok and he is
Speaker 1: usually the first social media account that I check when
Speaker 1: I finally let myself into my apps in the morning.
Speaker 1: Let's hear from Aaron Parness. Hi, Hi, my internet friend.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited we're here.
Speaker 2: I'm so excited. Also, I didn't, like, I completely did
Speaker 2: not realize I met you at the DNC when you're
Speaker 2: with Governor Moore.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I mean it was so brief, but like
Speaker 1: so brief.
Speaker 2: Yes, it is going to be so fun. I'm really excited.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so amped. I like, I'm I'm sort of
Speaker 1: at a loss for words because Aaron, where do we
Speaker 1: even start?
Speaker 2: Where? I don't I don't know. I mean, I couldn't
Speaker 2: tell you. It's a show like truthfully, like bigger than
Speaker 2: I could have ever imagined.
Speaker 1: The weird thing is in these really bizarre ways. I'm
Speaker 1: not surprised by anything. They gave us a roadmap, they
Speaker 1: told us what they were going to do. Yes, it
Speaker 1: was evil. Yes, it read like, you know, some sort
Speaker 1: of insane spy movie that if you turned it in
Speaker 1: at a Hollywood studio they'd be like, tone it down,
Speaker 1: you're being ridiculous. But I'm I'm so I'm in shock
Speaker 1: every day that it's really this depraved and terrible.
Speaker 2: I get it. I mean I think that like it's interesting, right,
Speaker 2: Like he did have the Project twenty twenty five roadmap.
Speaker 2: We knew what they were. And then everyone was like, well,
Speaker 2: he's saying he has nothing to do with Project twenty
Speaker 2: twenty five. Okay, great, look where we are at now.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know if you saw a political
Speaker 2: had an interview with the former Project twenty twenty five architect,
Speaker 2: he was asked, what do you think about this? And
Speaker 2: he goes, well, it's beyond my wildest dreams, like it's
Speaker 2: even betaw that, and I mean, I think it's and
Speaker 2: I think this goes to something that I've been talking
Speaker 2: a lot about with like my friends and stuff, is
Speaker 2: that the reason why Democrats don't have their act together
Speaker 2: right now is because they're trying to compete against As
Speaker 2: though Trump is running for reelection, he's not completely different
Speaker 2: beasts right now, right like, he has completely unchecked power
Speaker 2: in a way, he has a Republican House or Republican Senate,
Speaker 2: and he doesn't care what the voters think because he's
Speaker 2: not running for reelection, he has the next three and
Speaker 2: a half years.
Speaker 1: Not only does he not care what the voters think,
Speaker 1: he doesn't care what the courts. Thing we have someone
Speaker 1: who is occupying the highest office in the land, who
Speaker 1: is often in the world called the leader of the
Speaker 1: free world. You know, make up that what you will,
Speaker 1: but that's the age old tagline for the American president.
Speaker 1: This person doesn't care about anything but money and power.
Speaker 1: And so I'm trying to like make sense. Had I
Speaker 1: posted something about them gutting the EPA, and I just said,
Speaker 1: tell me why this makes sense. I don't care if
Speaker 1: you are a died in the wold liberal, if you
Speaker 1: are a hyper religious conservative. Dirty air and poisoned water
Speaker 1: and sewage in your drinking water and poisoned earth that
Speaker 1: you can't grow food in is bad for everybody. So like,
Speaker 1: what are we doing here?
Speaker 2: To anyone's guess, I mean, I really think we're in
Speaker 2: a position right now where he as president, really only
Speaker 2: knows about ten percent of what's happening in his own government.
Speaker 2: And I think he's really I mean every president really has,
Speaker 2: in my opinion, kind of limited oversight of what actually
Speaker 2: is happening day to day and all these agencies. But
Speaker 2: I think he's gotten to a point where he's kind
Speaker 2: of he has his little pet projects that he really
Speaker 2: cares about, like provoking Hunter Biden secret Service protection, but
Speaker 2: everything kind of give him carp blanche authority to those
Speaker 2: overseeing these agencies, many of whom have their own pet
Speaker 2: projects and their own kind of goals, whether it's remote
Speaker 2: business interests for big oil for example in the epaight example,
Speaker 2: or really anything else. So I don't think he really cares,
Speaker 2: is the thing. He doesn't really care to go and say,
Speaker 2: you know what, this is bad. It's more of like,
Speaker 2: you know what, if you think that's good, if you
Speaker 2: want to do it, go ahead and do it. I
Speaker 2: don't really care. That's kind of where I think we're at.
Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, so we have to pause, We have to
Speaker 1: rewind to catch back up to where we are today.
Speaker 1: Because you have, I've really become such a trusted voice
Speaker 1: out talking about the news. You are meeting the viewers
Speaker 1: where they're at, which is largely on social media. Rather
Speaker 1: than complaining that you know, no one's watching the five
Speaker 1: o'clock news anymore, you're taking the news to the people,
Speaker 1: which I think is incredibly important. I know, you and
Speaker 1: me and everyone else paying attention saw the actual scale
Speaker 1: infographic of how dwarfed by right wing influencers. Any truth
Speaker 1: teller or messager on the left is so we got
Speaker 1: to go, we got to go to the battlefield. How
Speaker 1: did you get this way? Like, talk to me about
Speaker 1: your childhood. You have always been brilliant. You started college
Speaker 1: when you were only fourteen, you were in law school
Speaker 1: by eighteen. Like the accelerated track is wild. And not
Speaker 1: only were you clearly a brilliant kid, but you grew
Speaker 1: up in a very political landscape. So can you give
Speaker 1: the listeners who I very affectionately call my whipsmarties, So
Speaker 1: they're exactly your kind of people. They like to know things.
Speaker 1: Give them a little bit of like the background t
Speaker 1: on how you got like this?
Speaker 2: Yeah, truth be told. I never wanted to be an
Speaker 2: influencer or even do journalism. I always had a dream
Speaker 2: of going to law school, working as a public defender
Speaker 2: and kind of just doing that for the rest of
Speaker 2: my life. Really, law school changed that. And talk about
Speaker 2: what happened twenty twenty two, but that also changed. But
Speaker 2: growing up, I grew up in a political household to
Speaker 2: the extent that I had family that was close to
Speaker 2: Donald Trump and had deep ties to the first Trump administration,
Speaker 2: deep ties to those around they're now president, the former
Speaker 2: president and really grew up in kinda maga world. I
Speaker 2: claimed to be a Republican myself, even though I really
Speaker 2: didn't know what that meant at the time, and I
Speaker 2: was just I really saw a maga for what it
Speaker 2: was from inside, being so close to it. And I
Speaker 2: did that for several years while also in college slash
Speaker 2: high school between before starting law school and then really
Speaker 2: when I started law schoo when I was eighteen and
Speaker 2: really exposed me to a lot. But I really didn't
Speaker 2: start being on social media until twenty twenty two when
Speaker 2: Russia did Ukraine. By then, I had already decided I
Speaker 2: was no longer a publican. I'm actually a democrat. I
Speaker 2: realized what that was. But in twenty twenty two, when
Speaker 2: Russia invaded Ukraine, I had family in Ukraine, and I
Speaker 2: would be hearing from my uncle and folks there about
Speaker 2: what was happening on the ground in front of their house, bombs, overhead, tanks, outside,
Speaker 2: crazy situation. Thankfully, everyone's okay. But I would hear from them,
Speaker 2: and then I would see what's happening on mainstream media
Speaker 2: here and it'd be completely different worlds. And so I
Speaker 2: just opened up a TikTok account and just started making
Speaker 2: videos and kind of the rest is history. So it's
Speaker 2: been a wild, wild journey.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really interesting that you say the thing about
Speaker 1: what you knew to be true from reporting on the
Speaker 1: ground and what was being repped resented on the media,
Speaker 1: because back in the day, you know, I'm not old
Speaker 1: enough to be your mother, but I'm in that like
Speaker 1: half generation above you. So imagine a time before TikTok,
Speaker 1: before even Instagram, you know, Twitter had launched. When it
Speaker 1: first did, I was like, who cares about pictures of
Speaker 1: anyone's breakfast? The irony being that now I follow one
Speaker 1: million food bloggers because I care turns out. But I
Speaker 1: was sort of like, the landscape is weird, and as
Speaker 1: an entertainer, you know, the tabloid culture then was crazy.
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't want to participate anymore in
Speaker 1: this cesspool that I have to. And then Deepwater Horizon happened,
Speaker 1: and I knew that they weren't telling the truth about
Speaker 1: this massive oil spill off the coast of Louisiana. I
Speaker 1: had friends down there because I'd been making a film
Speaker 1: there a few summers before. Fishermen I knew were sending
Speaker 1: me videos and We're like, the news is lying. So
Speaker 1: that's why I got on Twitter and I flew down there,
Speaker 1: and then the Sheriff's threatened to arrest me and a
Speaker 1: bunch of lawyers we brought from Global Green. It was
Speaker 1: a whole situation, and I was reporting the news on
Speaker 1: Twitter because the news wasn't reporting the news. And when
Speaker 1: you talk about Ukraine, I feel like there were moments
Speaker 1: when I went looking where I saw what was happening
Speaker 1: on the ground there where I saw Russian forces tying
Speaker 1: men up and executing them outside of their homes. We
Speaker 1: knew they were kidnapping children, we knew that hospitals were
Speaker 1: being bombed. I mean, it was horror, horror after horror,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't It wasn't in the sort of Walter
Speaker 1: Cronkite news package you would have expected from the American news.
Speaker 1: And now protests are happening in cities around America and
Speaker 1: cities around the world about what's happening in America, and
Speaker 1: they're not being covered on the news at all. So
Speaker 1: how do you make sense of that? Because you've said,
Speaker 1: you know, you mentioned earlier your family was very in
Speaker 1: the mix in Maga World for our listeners, Love part
Speaker 1: Us was tight heavily involved with Rudy Giuliani, Trump's first admin.
Speaker 1: You've talked about having seen inside version one of this administration,
Speaker 1: having been in the room for these conversations with top
Speaker 1: Republican allies. So I'm curious because of what you've seen,
Speaker 1: why you think they don't want us to see so much,
Speaker 1: Whether it's about Ukraine, whether it's about the protests, like
Speaker 1: what's going on here.
Speaker 2: I think it's two things. I think number one, it's
Speaker 2: fear and number two it's money. Right. I think the
Speaker 2: mainstream media and just media generally is fearful of what
Speaker 2: Trump can do to if they report something that's in
Speaker 2: his eyes not correct. I mean we see it with
Speaker 2: the ABC News settlements, right, we see it with It's
Speaker 2: the sixty minutes Kamala Harrison or you lost suit. I mean,
Speaker 2: he's going after the media now more than ever before,
Speaker 2: and he has the people in his administration to do that.
Speaker 2: So I think that's number one. I think fearful of
Speaker 2: really getting attacked by the Trump administration. And that's also
Speaker 2: why you see it's funny no one else is standing
Speaker 2: up with the Associated Press right now after the Associated
Speaker 2: Press was kicked out of the OBOL all these other
Speaker 2: sane they're just fine with it apparently. So that's number one.
Speaker 2: And then number two, I think it's money. I think
Speaker 2: ultimately mainstream media is their company is just like anyone else,
Speaker 2: any other company, ultimately about their bottom line. They care
Speaker 2: about how much money they're making from ad sales, from
Speaker 2: watch time and all that. So I think that they're
Speaker 2: beholden to those that are paying their bills, and I
Speaker 2: think those that are their bills often don't want the
Speaker 2: same narrative that every day people want to see, in
Speaker 2: my opinion, and I think that to your point, the
Speaker 2: protests aren't being covered and all that, it's one hundred
Speaker 2: percent true. And part of that goes to why there's
Speaker 2: been such a rise in independent media right now and
Speaker 2: why social media has really empowered kind of the next
Speaker 2: generation of media, because mainstream media companies are slowly realizing
Speaker 2: that they have to cover these events. If they don't,
Speaker 2: they're just going to be left behind. And I do
Speaker 2: see some subtle shifts in their coverage, but it's still
Speaker 2: not there yet. I mean, we still have an hour
Speaker 2: every night on CNN with Scott Jennings arguing in a
Speaker 2: round Table with Abby Phillips. I feel so bad for
Speaker 2: her because she's such a great journalist.
Speaker 1: Because she's incredible great.
Speaker 2: They put her on this panel with Scott Jennings and
Speaker 2: it's no longer news, it's not Walter Cronkite. It's an
Speaker 2: hour of opinion, and Americans are frustrated.
Speaker 1: So absolutely, and now for our sponsors, I do hear
Speaker 1: you on why they're afraid, But I also find it
Speaker 1: to be ridiculous. I mean even the fact that ABC
Speaker 1: News caved and the judge had to say, what's going
Speaker 1: on here? He was convicted, He was found guilty of
Speaker 1: raping this woman. What do you mean you can't talk
Speaker 1: about that on the news. It's like splitting hairs here
Speaker 1: in this way. That is so crazy, And yet they
Speaker 1: want to him in haw ensue and claim, oh, he
Speaker 1: could never And then here's Trump importing the Tape Brothers,
Speaker 1: violent violent rape culture guys, having Connor McGregor accused multiple times,
Speaker 1: and if I'm remembering correctly, someone on the internet can
Speaker 1: fact check me in real time. Convicted of having raped
Speaker 1: and assaulted multiple women, The Spiritual Advisor is on trial
Speaker 1: for raping a twelve year old girl. Trump's spiritual advisor
Speaker 1: for my friends at home. I'm air quoting so I
Speaker 1: don't throw up on myself, Like I'm just I don't
Speaker 1: understand how they will fold when the truth is called
Speaker 1: a lie and then not talk about any of the
Speaker 1: rest of the truth. And I'm curious your perspective on that,
Speaker 1: because that seems like the sort of central core of
Speaker 1: trump Ism, right, is to say everything you don't like
Speaker 1: is a lie, and then two in the same breath,
Speaker 1: say you love free speech, but then sue everyone who
Speaker 1: uses their free speech in a way you don't like.
Speaker 1: When you've talked about these conversations that you were privy
Speaker 1: to for years, did you kind of see inside the
Speaker 1: hive mind of this, Like what did you see that
Speaker 1: made you go, oh, the emperor really has no clothes?
Speaker 1: What revealed it to you?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, I think just constantly how they spoke
Speaker 2: about folks behind the scenes, like average everyday people and
Speaker 2: especially young people. There was a constant, like subtle undertone
Speaker 2: of like, they're not smart enough to really grasp what
Speaker 2: we're serving, right, like what we're kind of telling the public,
Speaker 2: and especially what we're trying to push towards young people.
Speaker 2: They're not smart enough to really realize what we're going
Speaker 2: to do, right, Like they're going to support us, and
Speaker 2: then we're going to be able to do whatever we
Speaker 2: want when we get into office. And that's kind of
Speaker 2: what I saw over those years. And it's actually why
Speaker 2: I'm not really surprised that young people and especially young
Speaker 2: men voted for him a lot more now than they
Speaker 2: did that even back in twenty sixteen, because what he
Speaker 2: was selling appeal to them, even if it wasn't what
Speaker 2: they're actually going to get over the next four years.
Speaker 2: I will say that. So, I think something that people
Speaker 2: don't really realize is that the weight of the Justice
Speaker 2: Department and the federal government on your shoulders, whether you
Speaker 2: are an individual being prosecuted or a company being sued
Speaker 2: by the Trump administration, is so great, I mean, so
Speaker 2: puditarily just anxiety inducing. I mean it is. And I
Speaker 2: represented a lot of folks in criminal matters when I
Speaker 2: was practicing as a lawyer, and there's nothing scarier than
Speaker 2: having the Department of Justice go after you, because it
Speaker 2: will cost you millions in legal fees, it will cost months,
Speaker 2: if not years, of headache, It'll cost you so much
Speaker 2: damage to your reputation, and the same thing applies to
Speaker 2: any one of these media companies. ABC News is a
Speaker 2: very large company. But if fearful that the Trump Justice
Speaker 2: Department or the Trump FCC can go after them, then
Speaker 2: to them, it's it's much easier to pay them off
Speaker 2: fifteen million dollars then me in a year's worth of
Speaker 2: litigation right now.
Speaker 1: Right, But isn't that Isn't that dictatorship weaponizing a Justice Department,
Speaker 1: weaponizing federal departments like the FBI to go after people
Speaker 1: you don't like, rather than to go after people who've
Speaker 1: committed crimes.
Speaker 2: It is, and I thankfully, I mean, they haven't prosecuted
Speaker 2: anyone yet, right, I mean it's only been two months.
Speaker 2: They haven't. They haven't used the Justice Department to specifically
Speaker 2: prosecute any of his quote unquote enemies just yet. But
Speaker 2: we're seeing him lay the groundwork with him trying to
Speaker 2: at least publicly say he's reversing Joe Biden's pardons, which
Speaker 2: is insanity. We see the FBI purging and demoting a
Speaker 2: number of top officials who worked on January sixth related cases,
Speaker 2: and interestingly enough, in DC where I live, the US
Speaker 2: Attorney or the acting US Attorney Ed Martin has really
Speaker 2: claimed he's Donald Trump's personal attorney, has claimed that he's
Speaker 2: going to be going after people who go after Elon Musk,
Speaker 2: And so they're laying the groundwork to eventually do something.
Speaker 2: I'm just glad they haven't done it yet, and I
Speaker 2: hope they don't do it. Book you never know.
Speaker 1: But here's what frightens me. It reminds me of the adage.
Speaker 1: First they came for right. We all know the poem,
Speaker 1: and we're seeing it now. They are disappearing people and
Speaker 1: then claiming with no due process, no investigation, no evidence,
Speaker 1: no proof in a court of law that any of
Speaker 1: what they're saying is true. These men that they essentially
Speaker 1: kidnapped and sent to this violent prison. And I'll salva
Speaker 1: door the doctor who, uh you know, the kidney transplant
Speaker 1: doctor who they deported. They said that they found photographs
Speaker 1: sympathetic to Hesbolah on her phone. What does that mean?
Speaker 1: Who investigated that she's a doctor? Did she did she
Speaker 1: download photos of a war zone? Did she like? What?
Speaker 1: Tell me, tell me why and tell me the truth,
Speaker 1: because I don't think anybody would want any version of
Speaker 1: a violent criminal here. But what happens when we find
Speaker 1: out that a number of those men that were sent
Speaker 1: by the Trump administration to Venezuela were just dads. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what happens if they're American citizens? If they can come
Speaker 1: for if they can come for fill in the blank,
Speaker 1: if they can overturn your green card status, if they
Speaker 1: if they can revoke your citizenship as they're threatening to,
Speaker 1: they can do it to anyone, anyone. And that's what's
Speaker 1: terrifying to me. So even what you're saying, you know,
Speaker 1: they're laying the groundwork to weaponize the DOJ. They haven't
Speaker 1: done it yet, it sure seems like they're going to.
Speaker 1: And when a court orders them to stop these deportations
Speaker 1: that don't have any what's the word, I'm looking for,
Speaker 1: any any grounding in the rule of law, and they
Speaker 1: say no, what do we do, Like, if there's no
Speaker 1: checks and balances, who's going to check this guy?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I don't know. And the truth be told,
Speaker 2: I've asked members of Congress, I've asked House member senators like,
Speaker 2: no one knows, No one has an answer to it.
Speaker 2: And I think I think you made an important point
Speaker 2: that a lot of people, especially on the writer, are
Speaker 2: missing and not that Democrats and just Americans generally are
Speaker 2: okay with, for example, trend dere Aragua members walking around
Speaker 2: on the streets. No one wants, no violent crime, and
Speaker 2: they're undocumented. Remove them. Everyone's saying that. But under the
Speaker 2: United States Constitution and under Supreme Court, President everyone, no
Speaker 2: matter whether you're documented or undocumented, you have due process rights. Right,
Speaker 2: you have the ability to face your accuser. And right
Speaker 2: now he is suspending that, and that is dangerous. In
Speaker 2: the situation of the kidney transplant doctor, I don't really
Speaker 2: care about what she found, what they found on her
Speaker 2: phone as much as I care about the fact that
Speaker 2: there was a judicial order in place. That's exactly, don't
Speaker 2: let her leave the country. And they let her leave
Speaker 2: the country anyway, they deport you, exactly. That's the problem.
Speaker 2: They're not going through the proper channels. And today Justice
Speaker 2: Roberts rebuked Trump for calling for the epachment of Judge Bosberg,
Speaker 2: which I thought was yes, you never hear that ever.
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, can you walk folks through that because you
Speaker 1: are you are a politically brilliant human. I am a
Speaker 1: bit of a political junkie. Not everyone spends as much
Speaker 1: time as I do, or as you do reading the
Speaker 1: news and studying this stuff. Tell the folks at home
Speaker 1: what that means for Chief Justice John Roberts to do
Speaker 1: what he did today. Can you walk us through what
Speaker 1: a big deal that is and kind of paint the picture.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean to put it into perspective. The Supreme
Speaker 2: Court does not issue political statements, does not issue statements
Speaker 2: about a sitting president, no matter who the president is.
Speaker 2: It is so rare for it to happen, and in
Speaker 2: the past ten years it's only happened twice. It happened
Speaker 2: once in twenty eighteen and once today. And the reason
Speaker 2: why and they're so careful about what they do that
Speaker 2: they don't even clap during the State of the Union.
Speaker 2: When Donald Trump or any president says the state of
Speaker 2: our Union is strongly, very basic statements, they won't clap.
Speaker 2: They'll just sit there. Many of them won't even attend
Speaker 2: because they want to look as a political as possible.
Speaker 2: And well, this morning, Donald Trump called for Judge Bosberg,
Speaker 2: who's overseeing this trend dear Aragua Venezuelan and deportation issue,
Speaker 2: to be impeached because he essentially did not agree with
Speaker 2: his ruling and hours later, Justice Roberts issued a statement
Speaker 2: saying that essentially, calling and I'm paraphrasing here, but calling
Speaker 2: for the impeachment of a federal judge is just because
Speaker 2: you disagree with their ruling is wrong. And it's interesting.
Speaker 2: Roberts didn't say Trump's name in the statement, but he
Speaker 2: essentially alluded to Trump's comments. Stunning because, like I said,
Speaker 2: it's really only the second time in ten years. In
Speaker 2: the last time was Roberts rebuking Trump in twenty eighteen
Speaker 2: for labeling a judge an Obama judge, and he said
Speaker 2: Roberts specifically said they're an Obama or Trump or Clinton judges,
Speaker 2: they are just judges. And someone was like, wow, that's
Speaker 2: a big deal then, But here it's even a bigger
Speaker 2: deal because this is a case that Chief Justice Roberts
Speaker 2: will oversee and you will get in front of the
Speaker 2: Supreme Court guaranteed whether or not Trump can use the
Speaker 2: Alien Enemies Act. So given the fact that he's now
Speaker 2: making a public statement, he is risking the possibility of
Speaker 2: having himself essentially recused from the case by making this
Speaker 2: public statement seemingly rebuking Trump. So it is stunning. I'm
Speaker 2: personally shocked, teammated, never have imagined you would have made
Speaker 2: something like this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's when your entire job is to be politically
Speaker 1: neutral so you can be legally specific. To feel you
Speaker 1: have to take a stand is not only radical in
Speaker 1: a way, but it also could endanger your career. So
Speaker 1: it's a very big deal. I think this is really interesting,
Speaker 1: and it speaks to something larger, which is that I'm
Speaker 1: getting the sense, whether it's these supposed criminals they're rounding
Speaker 1: up or the supposed inefficiency in the government, it seems
Speaker 1: like they told a really big story about a really
Speaker 1: big problem and a really big budget imbalance, and it
Speaker 1: seems like they've looked under the hood of America and gone, oh,
Speaker 1: the problems are all a lot smaller than we thought.
Speaker 1: Most people who come here are pretty nice and work hard,
Speaker 1: And the federal government, while very large, is actually not
Speaker 1: very inefficient at all. It just costs a lot of
Speaker 1: money to run a country for three hundred and thirty
Speaker 1: two million people, and to fund the things those people need,
Speaker 1: like medicate, like libraries, like I don't know, the Department
Speaker 1: of Transportation. It's not none of this happens for free,
Speaker 1: Like we don't have water coming out of the faucet
Speaker 1: or street lights that work for free, and a lot
Speaker 1: of it requires global participation. You know, you see these
Speaker 1: sort of threats of tariffs and all of this destabilization
Speaker 1: because it seems like the fifth you know, fifth grade
Speaker 1: bully wants to win in the sandbox. How do you
Speaker 1: make sense of how we can begin to talk about
Speaker 1: what the reality is in a country this big versus
Speaker 1: these big scary lies that Donald Trump and clearly you
Speaker 1: know Elon the Kenemie cowboy who's weirdly in charge now
Speaker 1: of all our personal data. How do we begin to
Speaker 1: walk people back from the fear that they stoked that
Speaker 1: just isn't being proven true.
Speaker 2: Well, I think the big answer to that is they
Speaker 2: actually haven't done a lot. Like when you look behind
Speaker 2: the hood of what they've actually accomplished in two months,
Speaker 2: it's not a lot of stuff. There's a lot of
Speaker 2: executive orders that say a lot of things, but don't
Speaker 2: actually do a lot of things. A lot of It's like,
Speaker 2: we have to study this over at the course of
Speaker 2: ninety days. I direct you to do this over the
Speaker 2: course of sixty days. Not a lot is actually getting done.
Speaker 2: And what is getting done is getting reversed. For example,
Speaker 2: just thirty minutes ago before I got on this show,
Speaker 2: a federal judge in Maryland ordered essentially said that the
Speaker 2: Trump administration has to reverse nearly everything they did with USAID.
Speaker 2: They have to open up Oh.
Speaker 1: Oh thank god, Oh my god. I was on another podcast, Aaron,
Speaker 1: You're making me want to.
Speaker 2: Cry, which is great news, right, but when you think
Speaker 2: about it, the federal government will now have to spend
Speaker 2: more money reopening USAID and REI all these people they did,
Speaker 2: saving all that money allegedly, right, allegedly, And you're saying, well,
Speaker 2: you want government efficiency, but now we're spending more money
Speaker 2: to cut money. It's it's wild.
Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors that I really
Speaker 1: enjoy and I think you will too. I think that's
Speaker 1: something people miss is that, Look, nobody wants there to
Speaker 1: be waste, right nobody. By the way, I got asked
Speaker 1: ten years ago if you were if you were the
Speaker 1: president tomorrow, what would be your first action, And I said, well,
Speaker 1: nobody's going to think it would be this, but I would.
Speaker 1: I would hire forensic accountants to audit every single state
Speaker 1: and department in the country. I want to know where
Speaker 1: all the money is. I want to understand how best
Speaker 1: to maximize the ROI of the United States budget, because
Speaker 1: let's be clear, taxes are an investment in a society,
Speaker 1: and everyone should be getting a return. Clearly, people like
Speaker 1: Elon Musk don't want to invest at all. They just
Speaker 1: want all the returns. They want to steal our money.
Speaker 1: And apparently he wants to privatize Social Security because the
Speaker 1: close to trillion dollars he has isn't enough for him,
Speaker 1: and he wants two point seven trillion more crazy pants.
Speaker 1: But I think it's also really important for people to go, oh,
Speaker 1: there's probably not as much waste as we thought. Oh,
Speaker 1: these programs cost money, but they make the planet healthier.
Speaker 1: For example, with USAID, the work we do around the world.
Speaker 1: That soft power is what won the Cold War. It
Speaker 1: is absolutely first and foremost about national security, and it's
Speaker 1: just the right thing to do. To ensure that people
Speaker 1: around the planet have access to medicine that they need
Speaker 1: that we can produce cheaply should be one of the
Speaker 1: great honors of American civil life. And to be clear,
Speaker 1: preventing the next pandemic, whether it be tuberculosis becoming untreatable
Speaker 1: or a Bola matters to us because diseases don't stay
Speaker 1: in borders. And so what I think hasn't been considered
Speaker 1: is that to turn these things off, these giant machines
Speaker 1: that get this flywheel of momentum, going to turn them
Speaker 1: off lights money on fire, and to have to restart
Speaker 1: them is going to require a whole lot of energy,
Speaker 1: ie more money being lit on fire to get them
Speaker 1: back to where they were in the first place. So
Speaker 1: how do you think, because I'm going to say, I
Speaker 1: feel better hearing you say, listen, it's really bad that
Speaker 1: they actually haven't done that much. You're right, I needed
Speaker 1: to hear that they've also done a lot of really
Speaker 1: horrible things, and a lot of what they're doing is
Speaker 1: so cruel. How do you think we begin to talk
Speaker 1: to people, not just people like us voters on the
Speaker 1: other side, our neighbors. The internet would make you think
Speaker 1: of everybody hates everybody, We mostly all really like each
Speaker 1: other in person. How do you think we start talking
Speaker 1: to each other and letting the truth of how this
Speaker 1: stuff works and how it's good for everyone actually ring true,
Speaker 1: so that we can make like a team America, because
Speaker 1: it really is all of America. Versus the oligarchs. At
Speaker 1: this point, how do we start to to help cut
Speaker 1: through the noise and remind people that we're in this together.
Speaker 1: How do we bring the truth back to our side?
Speaker 2: Bye bye bye by sticking to it right bye, by
Speaker 2: continue parroting truth. I think the truth is the most
Speaker 2: important thing, and just sticking to the facts, that sticking
Speaker 2: to the black and white, not sensationalizing things, right, getting
Speaker 2: back around a dinner table and finding common agreement over
Speaker 2: the future of social security, for example. But I will
Speaker 2: say I think that in a time right now where
Speaker 2: you have one party that is clearly unified behind Trump
Speaker 2: and another party that doesn't really have an opposition leader,
Speaker 2: to me, the best opposition is no opposition. This is
Speaker 2: what the voters voted for. Give them what they want.
Speaker 2: Let them see what they voted for. And you're already
Speaker 2: seeing it. And his approval ratings are falling right Google
Speaker 2: ratings among independence is down to thirty percent. Sixty seven
Speaker 2: percent disapprove of him and you. And there are elections
Speaker 2: coming up in New York in a special election. You
Speaker 2: have the Wisconsin Supreme Court race on April first, you
Speaker 2: have November elections, and then twenty twenty six, and slowly
Speaker 2: but surely the pendulum will swim. At a time where
Speaker 2: you don't really have a viable opposition. You don't have
Speaker 2: a leader on the left saying saying the truth. You
Speaker 2: have just a bunch of leaders who are not coordinated
Speaker 2: and messaging. I really think it's important to let voters
Speaker 2: see for themselves of like, is this really what and
Speaker 2: listen at the end of the day, if Americans want this,
Speaker 2: that's on them, Like, we can't stop that if two
Speaker 2: point one percent want it. But I don't think that's the.
Speaker 1: Case anyway, Well I don't either. I don't think it's
Speaker 1: the case, not only with Trump voters, but I also
Speaker 1: think it's really important, exactly as you said, to continue
Speaker 1: to tell the truth. He had the smallest electoral margin
Speaker 1: in history, right, He barely won.
Speaker 2: Thousand votes in three states. That's it.
Speaker 1: He barely won. So this is not a mandate, This
Speaker 1: is not a demand. And I do think that the lawlessness.
Speaker 1: You can't call yourself the party of law and order
Speaker 1: and support people who beat police officers to death. You
Speaker 1: can't call yourself the party of law and order and
Speaker 1: defy the courts and defy everything that is sacred about America,
Speaker 1: which is our equality, our justice system, your right to
Speaker 1: do process. You can't call yourself the party of family
Speaker 1: values when everyone around you is a rapist and the
Speaker 1: guy who you gave control of all of our data
Speaker 1: has fourteen kids with how many is it seven or eight? Women?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 1: Like, what are we doing? And I do think the
Speaker 1: voters in watching what he's doing are having that, Oh,
Speaker 1: the Emperor has no close moment. Do you think that
Speaker 1: even though they're being heavily critiqued for it, the electeds
Speaker 1: on the left, the Democrats aren't organizing a massive resistance
Speaker 1: right now so people can find out.
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think maybe we're giving them too much credit. I
Speaker 1: don't know.
Speaker 2: Maybe we are because the one thing that Republicans do
Speaker 2: well and I saw this on the inside his message well, right,
Speaker 2: like if they want to talk about Hunter Biden's laptop,
Speaker 2: everyone from Tucker Carlson to your smallest mom and pop
Speaker 2: influencer will be talking about Hunter Biden's laptop. On the
Speaker 2: Democratic side, it's like, we have affordable housing, reproductive rights,
Speaker 2: all these great things. But yeah, different topics, one hundred
Speaker 2: different people and there's no coordinating.
Speaker 1: But can I ask you a question, because now we
Speaker 1: know how much money Russia has been pumping into these
Speaker 1: right wing networks. We know that for them, this is opposition.
Speaker 1: We know that they're bragging on our TV that Vladimir
Speaker 1: Putin is destroying America without having to launch a single missile.
Speaker 1: I mean they're talking about it out loud. They talked
Speaker 1: about how they bought an election for Donald Trump. The
Speaker 1: right wing all stays on message because they're paid to
Speaker 1: deliver that message.
Speaker 2: They do a good job. They have I mean the
Speaker 2: left doesn't have that.
Speaker 1: No, we don't have the money, we don't have the reach,
Speaker 1: we don't have the like, we don't have the evil
Speaker 1: network of billionaires you know, paying Tucker Carlson to do
Speaker 1: pro Russia commercials. We just don't have it. How do
Speaker 1: you think that became such a runaway train because you
Speaker 1: witnessed some of that disinformation up close in your house.
Speaker 1: I mean, your father literally helped Rudy Giuliani investigate Joe
Speaker 1: and Hunter Biden this whole sham of a Ukraine story,
Speaker 1: which now the guy has admitted he made up and
Speaker 1: he's going to jail in the first place. But for
Speaker 1: some reason, the fact that it's all been found to
Speaker 1: be a lie hasn't broken through. So why do you
Speaker 1: think that is? Because you wrote in your book, I'm
Speaker 1: going to quote you to you, which is so cheesy.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but I'm doing it for the listeners at home.
Speaker 1: You wrote in your book quote, it was clear to
Speaker 1: me that everything the mayor and my father did through
Speaker 1: the summer months of twenty nineteen related to Ukraine and
Speaker 1: the Bidens was done at the direction and with the
Speaker 1: consent of President Trump. But when your father got arrested
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen for this whole scam, Donald Trump immediately
Speaker 1: distanced himself. So I would imagine as on the personal level,
Speaker 1: your book is a way for you to stand up
Speaker 1: for your out a little bit. But I would also
Speaker 1: imagine on the social, sort of societal level, it's a
Speaker 1: way for you to try to ring the bell and
Speaker 1: say this was all made up? Was Can you tell
Speaker 1: people about it because there might be somebody listening who's like,
Speaker 1: what do you mean it was made up? I haven't
Speaker 1: seen that anywhere. Give us a little overview, and then
Speaker 1: tell us why you think the lie has continued to
Speaker 1: outlast the truth.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean to me, every time I sat in
Speaker 2: these rooms, and granted I was only privy to like
Speaker 2: ten percent of everything that they were doing, right, so
Speaker 2: there was a lot more that I was than privy too,
Speaker 2: but everything every time I was in these rooms, it
Speaker 2: was more of like, oh, we have questions that we
Speaker 2: need to answer, and we keep hitting these roadblocks and
Speaker 2: we keep getting the wrong answer or the answer we
Speaker 2: don't like, and it's how to massage this answer to
Speaker 2: kind of get it to where we need to go.
Speaker 2: So it was always like they're constantly hitting roadblocks and
Speaker 2: all of these quote unquote investigations, and I call them
Speaker 2: shadow diplomacy schemes when I can.
Speaker 1: I ask a question when you say hitting roadblocks, meaning
Speaker 1: they would say find this dirt, and someone would say
Speaker 1: the dirt doesn't exist, give it up, and then they'd say, no,
Speaker 1: you have to make us some dirt more or less.
Speaker 2: Or we're gonna mold what you said into something that
Speaker 2: it isn't. Essentially, I really think the reason why it hasn't,
Speaker 2: the debunking of it hasn't broken through, is partially because
Speaker 2: the messaging on that side is just so well, it's
Speaker 2: so easy to understand Joe Biden is corrupt. That is
Speaker 2: so easy to grasp. It is much harder to grasp that, No,
Speaker 2: actually the Hunter Biden laptop didn't contain exactly what it contained.
Speaker 2: But like when you go into the details, you miss
Speaker 2: the narrative, and they don't go on details. They have
Speaker 2: their high level talking points and they stick to it,
Speaker 2: and to this day, that's what they're doing on a
Speaker 2: lot of these things. So that's why we're an average American.
Speaker 2: It's so easy to understand like these big buzzwords or
Speaker 2: these big phrases. On the other side, when you're trying
Speaker 2: to fight for the truth, you do have to go
Speaker 2: into the nitty gritty. You do have to be details.
Speaker 2: But no one's going to listen to that. No one
Speaker 2: really cared as much to listen to that. So I
Speaker 2: really think that's part of it. I mean, I will
Speaker 2: say though, that we are in such twenty twenty twenty five,
Speaker 2: we're in such a different space compared to where we
Speaker 2: were in twenty nineteen. Like back then it was the
Speaker 2: Trump administration. I mean that was the in the third
Speaker 2: year of the first administration, and they were still figuring
Speaker 2: out like they're left from right, like they still didn't
Speaker 2: know really much about the levers of government. We were
Speaker 2: in such a different environment. They know how to get
Speaker 2: things done now, they know, they know the mistakes they made,
Speaker 2: so it's a completely different environment.
Speaker 1: Now, meaning they're more expert at how to break things correct.
Speaker 2: Meaning I told everyone this back in the first or
Speaker 2: really during the twenty twenty four election cycle, and people
Speaker 2: are like, well, do you like Ron DeSantis or Donald Trump? Like,
Speaker 2: who do you think would be better if you were
Speaker 2: a Republican? I'd say, well, to any Republican who wants
Speaker 2: someone in office, Donald Trump and we're on the sand,
Speaker 2: want the same thing. One can just get it done,
Speaker 2: the other can't. Right. Ron Sants is just a little smarter.
Speaker 2: Donald Trump is an idiot. He can't actually get things done.
Speaker 2: And we saw that in the first Trump administration. And well,
Speaker 2: now he's in office. He has people around him who
Speaker 2: have been in government know kind of what to do more,
Speaker 2: and he has no one's obstructing him anymore, no one's
Speaker 2: whistle blowing on him anymore because he has all these
Speaker 2: loyalists around him. So it's just kind of like full
Speaker 2: steam ahead. There's no learning curve anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what scares me is that there's not there's
Speaker 1: not a Cassidy Hutchinson in the White House anymore.
Speaker 2: And.
Speaker 1: That's really terrifying. After you released the book, did you
Speaker 1: hear from anyone on the Trump team? Did anyone reach
Speaker 1: out to you or were you just immediately persona non grata.
Speaker 2: I think immediately persona non grata. I mean, that was
Speaker 2: that was such a crazy time for me. That was
Speaker 2: also I wrote that book in two weeks between what Yeah,
Speaker 2: so I was studying for the bar exam at the
Speaker 2: time and oh my god, during COVID. I finished on
Speaker 2: like at the bar exam was like October tenth or something,
Speaker 2: and then two weeks later I published this book just
Speaker 2: to get it out before the November election. And it
Speaker 2: wasn't my best work, probably not, but I just needed
Speaker 2: to get it out there in case someone was voting
Speaker 2: and would read it and see it.
Speaker 1: I am so shook.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it was a crazy time. It was also
Speaker 2: during COVID, so I didn't really have anything else to do.
Speaker 1: But wow, completely non related to this conversation, but I
Speaker 1: have so many questions for you about time management, Like,
Speaker 1: clearly you've nailed something, so we're going to have to
Speaker 1: follow up. What is it like now when you look
Speaker 1: back at that, Yeah, you know, you speak so much
Speaker 1: about the days following your dad's arrest and trying to
Speaker 1: make sense of all of this. I can't imagine that
Speaker 1: it is comfortable to have to investigate how someone's so
Speaker 1: important to you could essentially, I don't want to put
Speaker 1: words in your mouth, but I would imagine betray you
Speaker 1: or your country in such a way. How do you
Speaker 1: make sense of it? Like, what's your relationship with your
Speaker 1: father now? Because this is a big national political scandal,
Speaker 1: but this is also your dad.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, listen, I love my dad and not
Speaker 2: my dad. I wasn't really involved in the yeah and
Speaker 2: stuff like that, so that was kind of separate, but
Speaker 2: from like a human perspective going through that, as I
Speaker 2: guess a fledgling lawyer, I quickly realized because I wanted
Speaker 2: to do criminal defense work, and when he was arrested,
Speaker 2: I kind of experienced the system from the family lens,
Speaker 2: from the family of the accused. And when I said
Speaker 2: earlier that there is truly nothing in comparison to having
Speaker 2: the weight of the Justice Department on your shoulders, like
Speaker 2: I thought, genuinely break a person down And to me,
Speaker 2: I was looking at that and I was like, it
Speaker 2: doesn't matter. I mean, like whether or not you you
Speaker 2: did what you're accused of, the hell they put you
Speaker 2: through to get to their end result, Yeah, it's not.
Speaker 2: And my dad, I mean, it's just a unique case,
Speaker 2: and that there was a lot of national tension, right
Speaker 2: he got an interview on Rachel Matta or whatever, like,
Speaker 2: he definitely got some leniency when it came to sentencing.
Speaker 2: But the average American doesn't get that same leniency. The
Speaker 2: average am goes through this justice system with who can't
Speaker 2: afford an attorney, who has like a single mom with
Speaker 2: four kids and is being thrown away for years, and
Speaker 2: they throw away, they throw them away, and they locked
Speaker 2: them away without the key in a very scary, very
Speaker 2: tough situation. I saw that firsthand as the son of
Speaker 2: someone who was accused, and I want anyone to have
Speaker 2: to go through that.
Speaker 1: Right, It's such an enormous lever of an enormous nation,
Speaker 1: and then when it's focused on you or your family,
Speaker 1: it must be really terrifying. And I would imagine, again
Speaker 1: I'm just speculating here, but I would imagine for someone
Speaker 1: like your dad, to go what have I done for
Speaker 1: this person?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: What have I contributed to for someone who literally wants
Speaker 1: to destroy everything we say we believe in. You know,
Speaker 1: it's got to be hard. It's sort of I don't
Speaker 1: know why this is what's populating in my brain, but
Speaker 1: it makes me think so much of the accounts I've
Speaker 1: read from other women who've been in abusive relationships, where
Speaker 1: once you're out of it, you look back and you go,
Speaker 1: how could I have been in that house for so long?
Speaker 1: You know? But you're in it and it's your world
Speaker 1: and it's you know, your family in certain ways.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I will say I think that in the
Speaker 2: days after my dad's arrest, that was like the first
Speaker 2: time I experienced quote unquote fame or infamy in a way.
Speaker 2: And like a moment where I was walking to school
Speaker 2: two days after he was arrested, and there was like
Speaker 2: a photographer from like like stopics waiting for me to
Speaker 2: walk by. A reporter slid her information under my apartment door,
Speaker 2: and I was like, how the hell did you get
Speaker 2: in there? And I had never been in like the
Speaker 2: public I ever, and I was like, what the hell
Speaker 2: did I get myself into? And now five years later,
Speaker 2: I'm a public figure, but it was it was truly
Speaker 2: a scary time.
Speaker 1: And now a word from our wonderful sponsors, I really
Speaker 1: appreciate the way you've been so willing to talk about
Speaker 1: all of this, not just on this show today, but
Speaker 1: out in the world. And you know, I've I've read
Speaker 1: some really amazing accounts, and I've watched some really amazing,
Speaker 1: you know, on camera interviews from some folks who have
Speaker 1: gotten out of the MAGA world as well, and we've
Speaker 1: talked about how getting out of it is kind of
Speaker 1: like having to get out of a cult. I have
Speaker 1: a friend who got out of a cult. Like it's
Speaker 1: the mindset. Stuff is really wild. And I'm really curious
Speaker 1: from this perspective, not necessarily, you know today in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty five, in the political landscape of you, however, many
Speaker 1: pages of Project twenty twenty five were into but I
Speaker 1: really mean just for you as an individual, because you
Speaker 1: went from being a Trump supporter in sixteen to voting
Speaker 1: for Biden in twenty twenty and advocating the way that
Speaker 1: you have and publishing your book and doing everything you
Speaker 1: could alongside the rest of us who tried to do
Speaker 1: everything we could for this election. You have such an
Speaker 1: interesting lens on this stuff. So what do you say
Speaker 1: to people who are still supporting Trump? Like, how how
Speaker 1: do you kind of get the tip of the spear
Speaker 1: in to start letting the facts actually matter?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, my one thing to all those people
Speaker 2: would be to like go and have some of these
Speaker 2: lived experiences that I've had. So made me kind of
Speaker 2: switch because I never really bought into the Trump mantra.
Speaker 2: Right in six twenty sixteen, I couldn't even vote. I
Speaker 2: wasn't even old enough to vote.
Speaker 1: So, oh my god, you told us that's true.
Speaker 2: I remember, But it wasn't until like twenty eighteen or
Speaker 2: so that I was actually some working in at a
Speaker 2: summer job in law school, and a friend of mine
Speaker 2: was doing teach for America in Miami, and she invited
Speaker 2: me to come into the classroom and teach her students
Speaker 2: about like just constitutional law, what happens if a police
Speaker 2: officer comes up to you. These are like six seven
Speaker 2: year old kids, And I been there and I was like,
Speaker 2: instantly it hit me. These kids, I mean, they didn't
Speaker 2: have the resources that I had. Their clothing was right, like,
Speaker 2: they weren't in a good school environment. They're lucky if
Speaker 2: they had two meals a day, right, like their only
Speaker 2: meal that they were getting within the school. And in
Speaker 2: that moment, I was like, holy shit, one party cares
Speaker 2: about these kids. The other party doesn't. And that's when
Speaker 2: I flipped, and I think for anyone else kind of
Speaker 2: in that world, I want them to have those same experiences.
Speaker 2: And it's whether. It doesn't have to be in an
Speaker 2: inner city school, right. It could be with an aging
Speaker 2: parent who needs Social Security benefits and can't get it right.
Speaker 1: It could be.
Speaker 2: A spouse who has God forbid cancer and needs health
Speaker 2: insurance and gets a massive hospital built. Until they experience
Speaker 2: something like that for themselves, they won't realize like, okay,
Speaker 2: one party wants me to be okay in a situation
Speaker 2: like this, while the other party doesn't really care.
Speaker 1: Yes. Yes, And it's really interesting, you know, you bring
Speaker 1: up the experience of kids in school, and I've had
Speaker 1: this debate with some folks online that are like, if
Speaker 1: you can't afford to feed your kids, don't have them.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, aren't you all the same people who
Speaker 1: don't want women to be able to access abortion care
Speaker 1: when they need it? Interesting, and it's my argument is always, Look,
Speaker 1: I want my taxes to feed kids in schools. I
Speaker 1: want kids to be well fed. And know, I don't
Speaker 1: think pizza should be classified as a vegetable in schools
Speaker 1: because of tomato sauce. I want them to have actual,
Speaker 1: healthy food, and I want my tax dollars to go
Speaker 1: to that. I don't want the money I pay in
Speaker 1: taxes to mean that Elon Musk doesn't have to pay
Speaker 1: any to mean that Donald Trump doesn't have to pay
Speaker 1: any Someone worth billions of dollars should not be paying
Speaker 1: seven hundred and fifty dollars a year in taxes. It's unacceptable.
Speaker 1: And I think that the folks that are like, don't
Speaker 1: live off the government, you know, make your own way.
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, make your own way. Go move into
Speaker 1: the woods, don't use electricity, don't use water, don't use
Speaker 1: the roads. You go live absolutely all on your own,
Speaker 1: provide for yourself. Go. But the rest of us invest
Speaker 1: in a society to be able to be in a society.
Speaker 1: We're supposed to be in this together, you know. I
Speaker 1: don't think it's a radical idea to say, well, if
Speaker 1: it would be cheaper to have universal health care than
Speaker 1: to do this, you know, private insurance nonsense we do
Speaker 1: in this country, Like, let's shape it up, that's where
Speaker 1: the money should be going.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, listen, I think something heartening I guess
Speaker 2: for you and for your viewers is that I really
Speaker 2: do firmly believe in polling has shown and even my
Speaker 2: conversations have shown with folks on the ground and online,
Speaker 2: is that we are really more united than we are divided.
Speaker 2: We are a divide agree, but truth be told, eighty
Speaker 2: percent of the nation is united. You have the far
Speaker 2: right and the far left, and they are the loudest
Speaker 2: voices in the room, but they aren't the most popular ones.
Speaker 2: And that's why. And those who represent us in Congress
Speaker 2: are not necessarily representing the masses. Right. There are six
Speaker 2: senators from North Dakota, South Dakota, and Wyoming representing less
Speaker 2: people than LA County. Right, Like, there's a problem inherent
Speaker 2: in our system. But that doesn't mean people living in
Speaker 2: our nation aren't united. And I really do think, I
Speaker 2: do think that the pendulum will swing back to the center.
Speaker 2: I do think we'll get back to normalcy. Take time,
Speaker 2: and it'll Okay, that hurt, but we'll get there.
Speaker 1: So should we go to South Dakota, Like, what are
Speaker 1: we doing?
Speaker 2: I mean, if you want to, if you want to
Speaker 2: go to South Dakota, be my guest. I don't want to.
Speaker 2: Let's start with advocating for DC to be a state,
Speaker 2: Puerto Rico to be a state, right, Like I'm when
Speaker 2: Donald Trump says make Greenland in the state, I'm like, cool,
Speaker 2: two more Democratic.
Speaker 1: Senators, right, let's go. Oh yeah.
Speaker 2: But I really think like just getting back to the
Speaker 2: kitchen table conversations, really just getting back to within your family,
Speaker 2: within your friend groups, like too, And I think I really.
Speaker 1: I hope that I hope so too, And that I
Speaker 1: think is actually where the hope is rooted. I think
Speaker 1: for anyone listening who feels hopeless, you got to get outside.
Speaker 1: You got to talk to a neighbor. The silos and
Speaker 1: the anger on the internet and the algorithm, it makes
Speaker 1: things seem so much more hateful than they are in numbers,
Speaker 1: and there's always going to be hateful people, but there
Speaker 1: are so many more of us. What gives you hope?
Speaker 1: And as you're making sure to fill yourself up with that,
Speaker 1: how do you then also keep up with giving your
Speaker 1: followers these daily and sometimes hourly news updates that can
Speaker 1: feel hope less. How do you balance this stuff?
Speaker 2: Yeah, what gives me hope is actually funny. It's the
Speaker 2: dms and the comments that I get from Republicans. So
Speaker 2: I was into comments and dms from Republicans every day
Speaker 2: who are saying, Hey, I don't necessarily agree with you
Speaker 2: or agree with how you're framing this, but it's right
Speaker 2: and thank you. Right, Like I have a Republican cousin
Speaker 2: who doesn't watch the media but watches you. That to
Speaker 2: me means that what I'm doing is breaking through, that
Speaker 2: the truth is breaking through, So that is giving me hope.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I have a large audience, but it's a
Speaker 2: very small audience in compared to the overall number in
Speaker 2: our nation. And I even if I could change one
Speaker 2: mind or just expose one person to the truth, that
Speaker 2: is giving me hope and what keeps me going. And yeah,
Speaker 2: a lot of the news is quote unquote bad, but
Speaker 2: it is the news, and people have to be excited
Speaker 2: about the news. People have to get excited about learning
Speaker 2: about the news. And even if you think it is horrible,
Speaker 2: and we are times, I get it. But there is
Speaker 2: a light at the end of the tunnel. Because for
Speaker 2: every bad piece of news, there is a good piece
Speaker 2: of news out there. It's just going to come.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what was it that really made you say, Okay,
Speaker 1: TikTok is it I'm just going to start making these videos.
Speaker 1: Were you experimenting with it at first or did you
Speaker 1: kind of see the vision of how you were going
Speaker 1: to communicate and then relentlessly follow your instincts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I just think like it was like
Speaker 2: that first video that really went viral when I got
Speaker 2: and when I say viral, like when it got like
Speaker 2: five thousand views. That to me, it was like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, I'm viral.
Speaker 1: Like it's yeah, I've done it.
Speaker 2: I've done it right. Like, I think TikTok was like
Speaker 2: the easiest platform for me where it's truly like the
Speaker 2: amount of work into making these videos. I mean these
Speaker 2: videos take me two minutes to make. I don't edit them.
Speaker 2: There were one cut. Like it's super quick, super easy,
Speaker 2: and it's just like the authenticity factor, Like I was
Speaker 2: already scrolling an hour and a half every morning and
Speaker 2: an hour and a half that night on TikTok. Why
Speaker 2: not scroll five minutes less and make a video instead?
Speaker 2: What I just started doing and now it's like whether
Speaker 2: I'm in an airplane bathroom more in that at the gym,
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. The news is the news, and it's
Speaker 2: just I'm gonna report. I don't I didn't look like
Speaker 2: a hot ass mess, which I do ninety percent of
Speaker 2: the time. But that's okay.
Speaker 1: I think that's great. I actually put mascara on today.
Speaker 1: That was my big, my very big step.
Speaker 2: So my wife here before I came on.
Speaker 1: So I love it. I love it. Well, what feels
Speaker 1: like the goal? Like you're doing such a good service,
Speaker 1: You're you are bringing so many of us together. You
Speaker 1: are who so many of us check on first thing
Speaker 1: in the morning when we you know, get on our apps.
Speaker 1: But for you, aside from just how you're helping lead folks, like,
Speaker 1: is there kind of an ultimate personal goal for you
Speaker 1: with the platforms across social media, the sub stack, which
Speaker 1: by the way, is so good for our listeners at home,
Speaker 1: the partner's perspective, if you're not subscribed, get it together.
Speaker 2: I think the ultimate goal is to bring Walter Kronkite.
Speaker 1: Back music to my ears and to empower.
Speaker 2: A next generation of journalists right to make it, to
Speaker 2: give them the platform to report their own news, to
Speaker 2: make sure that young people now can feel comfortable getting
Speaker 2: behind a camera and talking about what they see in
Speaker 2: front of them at their owns every single day, and
Speaker 2: that they don't have to go through ten layers of
Speaker 2: review at a mainstream media company, and that they're just
Speaker 2: talking about the truth. So that's the goal that you
Speaker 2: spun again. And for me personally, my dream is too,
Speaker 2: potentially have a show one day where I can just
Speaker 2: talk about facts for an hour, Yes, because I think
Speaker 2: it's it's so needed in this age. Kind of like Walter.
Speaker 1: Too, that is my dream. Should we do it together?
Speaker 1: Should we do it in South Dakota? Feel like we're
Speaker 1: bringing the news to you.
Speaker 2: We can ride on the horses with the Christy Gnome.
Speaker 1: Honestly, absolutely like my other goal in life to get
Speaker 1: back to riding. So if I could do the two
Speaker 1: things at the same time.
Speaker 2: I would not do anything. Actually that's my biggest fear
Speaker 2: in life.
Speaker 1: Really. Okay, we can start small. We could just like
Speaker 1: go hang out and you could stay on the ground.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, my partner used to say that, and then
Speaker 1: we baby stepped our way into it. And the first
Speaker 1: time she got on a horse by the end of
Speaker 1: that first hour, she was so happy she burst into yours.
Speaker 1: So you never know, I've been on horses. Ah okay, okay,
Speaker 1: it's a deeper fear. Okay, well this will be part
Speaker 1: of the offline thing. I have a question, because now
Speaker 1: you're really you're inside the baseball as it were. You
Speaker 1: used to say that you hoped to maybe be the
Speaker 1: president of the United States someday. Do you still think
Speaker 1: that or are you like, absolutely not, Hell, no, goodbye,
Speaker 1: I want no part of it.
Speaker 2: I am at the point of my life where I'm
Speaker 2: no longer planning my life, if that make sense.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 2: I growing up, I always was like, in five years,
Speaker 2: I'm going to do this, in ten years, I'm going
Speaker 2: to do this. Well. If if I charted my course,
Speaker 2: the course that I passed out were created the path
Speaker 2: five years ago, ten years ago, it would have been
Speaker 2: completely different than where I am now. So I'm just
Speaker 2: kind of going with the flow, just enjoying every day
Speaker 2: and taking each opportunity as it comes to me. If
Speaker 2: I run for office one day, it's because I feel
Speaker 2: like I was the best person for that job and
Speaker 2: that no one else can do it better. But right now,
Speaker 2: I'm just kind of enjoying what I'm doing, so we'll see.
Speaker 1: I like that I am at the point in my
Speaker 1: life where I'm no longer planning my life right. Truer
Speaker 1: words have never been spoken. I think every time I've
Speaker 1: really gotten attached to a plan, even if I execute it,
Speaker 1: I kind of look around and go, uh oh, right,
Speaker 1: I think this was a really good idea on paper,
Speaker 1: and now that I've done it, I don't know if it's.
Speaker 2: For me right right, And honestly for me, it's like,
Speaker 2: if you gave me the opportunity between being Walter Kronk
Speaker 2: or being the president, I don't know that I would
Speaker 2: choose the presidency. Well, yeah, because you can do so
Speaker 2: much more like in terms of impact as the nation's
Speaker 2: truth teller than you can as a nation's leader.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's really interesting. So when you look at those
Speaker 1: sort of personal goals, and you know some of them
Speaker 1: obviously revolve around work, but then there's there's a whole
Speaker 1: other side of your life for you, for your joy,
Speaker 1: for your family, Like when you look at the year ahead,
Speaker 1: what feels like in your core your biggest work in progress?
Speaker 2: Good question, my honestly, myself and I'll be vulnerable for
Speaker 2: a little bit in that, Like I'm going to go
Speaker 2: to therapy for the first time ever this year, Like
Speaker 2: I'm sorry you right. Like I'm going to work on
Speaker 2: my relationship with my wife, were in our second year.
Speaker 1: Of marriage, building a home, congrets.
Speaker 2: So like that, that to me is the most important
Speaker 2: thing in my life, like my personal life and setting
Speaker 2: those boundaries and building those relationships and so that's my
Speaker 2: biggest work in progress the career, and funny enough has
Speaker 2: always come easiest to me. It's it's the personal stuff
Speaker 2: that's always been the hardest.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I get that sometimes. I think when when you
Speaker 1: are so hyper intellectual, you know, you analyze data, you
Speaker 1: understand policy, you you think about these big thirty thousand
Speaker 1: foot issues that affect so many people, your community focused, right,
Speaker 1: it can be really hard to then be in just
Speaker 1: inside yourself, one of one and figure it out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's certainly been a been a journey for me.
Speaker 1: So you've got friends walking this road.
Speaker 2: Appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really I'm really grateful that we got to
Speaker 1: do this finally today.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, so thank you so much for
Speaker 2: having me on.
Speaker 1: I'm thrilled, and everybody better get on that substack. I
Speaker 1: hope that, I hope that this week your dms are
Speaker 1: filled with work and progress. Listeners being like, I'm all in.
Speaker 1: When are we going to South Dakota.
Speaker 2: Let's do it.