1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, it's Sophia and welcome back to Work in Progress. 2 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: When you think Jane Goodall, your mind probably jumps immediately 3 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: to chimpanzees, and with good reason. Her landmark study of 4 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: chimps in the wild fundamentally changed our understanding of humans, 5 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: relationship to other primates, and the capability of animals. But 6 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 1: Jane Goodall is so much more than her research in primatology, 7 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: and today she is our guests on Work in Progress. 8 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: Dr Goodall is also a powerhouse in climate change activism 9 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: and conservation that Jane Goodall institutes Trees for Jane campaign 10 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: is creating a cross generational initiative to preserve, replenish, and 11 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: promote our planets forests. She is an author whose newest book, 12 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: The Book of Hope, is coming out this month. Her 13 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: Ted talk have millions of views, her podcast hundreds of 14 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: thousands of downloads. But Jane Goodall has always used her platform, 15 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: her many platforms, in fact, for one thing, the betterment 16 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: of our planet and human interaction with the environment. I 17 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: am so excited to talk with Jane Goodall and learn 18 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,759 Speaker 1: more about her as a person, as well as dive 19 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: deeper into her extensive career and the roles that she 20 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,680 Speaker 1: has taken on as an advocate for nature. I hope 21 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: you're excited to let's get started. Good morning, Jane, It's 22 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: so lovely to see you again. Good to see you too. 23 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: How have you been since the Templeton Prize? Busier than 24 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: I've ever been in my whole life with publishing books 25 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: and with all the Cup twenty six coming up, and 26 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: all the pre Cup twenty six and all the U stuff, 27 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: and it just doesn't stop. I mean there's a there's 28 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: a minimum of two zooms to day, that's a minimum 29 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: and two hours this morning. Very busy all over the world. 30 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: I mean, in one day, I can be in China, India, 31 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: tens Ina, North America. You know, it's incredible. I imagine 32 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: that it must be surreal, you know, all of these 33 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: years into your work and career and your public advocacy 34 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: to be, as you said, busier than ever. Does it 35 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: feel like we're at a moment where everyone is really 36 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: really listening to what you've been saying for so long. Well, 37 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: it does seem like it's strangely enough, it really does, 38 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: you know, because some of these issues are rising up 39 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: to the top of government agendas, and that does seem 40 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: to be more awareness, and COVID has woken people up. 41 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: And you know also the fact that the effects of 42 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 1: climate change are no longer just being thought of as 43 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: o something happening in the third world far away. Now 44 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 1: it's harming people all over the US and Europe. And 45 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: I think that's made a big difference. Yes, it is 46 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: so interesting. I it seems that many of us were 47 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: cultured for a long time to think, oh, well, it 48 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: couldn't happen here. Terrible things don't happen here. We read 49 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: about them in the history books, and and they happen 50 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: far away, and oh, isn't it sad? But people don't 51 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:37,119 Speaker 1: often feel truly touched. And to see the ways that 52 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: that false idea, that not to be crass but ridiculous 53 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: idea of separatism or safety as has really begun to 54 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: go away for a lot of folks. It seems that 55 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: people are understanding what you've been saying for so long. 56 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: You know, our our liberation is bound together. What happens 57 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: there happy is here. What affects the environment far away 58 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: affects our own. And now when you see, you know, 59 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: the subways of New York flooding like in a disaster 60 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: movie and and northern zones in this country being read 61 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: designated as subtropical. Everyone's going, oh, this is what the 62 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 1: scientists have been talking about. So on the one one 63 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: coast you got flooding and destruction from hurricanes. On the 64 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:31,359 Speaker 1: other side, the environment is burning. And Europe of course 65 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: was subjected to these terrible floods earlier in the year, 66 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: and fires too, And for the very first time in 67 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: history as far as we know, the Arctic forests were 68 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: on fire in the Arctic Circle. And since I first 69 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: went to Greenland, the ice cap has dropped. I mean, 70 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: you know, like when I first went to Tanzania Mount Kilimanjaro, 71 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: the famous snows of Kilimanjaro, snows came halfway down the mountain. 72 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: Now they've gone. Wow. I'm curious about all of what 73 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: you've seen, and and when you talk about where you 74 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: find yourself in your career now, zooming all over the 75 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: world and being able to be in so many places 76 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 1: at once, I think back to our first interaction, which 77 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 1: I got to tell you about recently, when I was 78 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 1: in the eighth grade and you came and spoke at 79 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: my school in Pasadena, my little all girls school called Westbridge, 80 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: and I was so touched when I shared that with you, 81 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: because you said, what it's been like, as miss Jane 82 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: Goodall to meet so many people who say, you came 83 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: to my school in this city, You visited my school 84 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: in this town. You You've really dedicated so much of 85 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 1: your life, not only to showing up in the places 86 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: that require study, but then taking your learned knowledge to 87 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: other places to inspire the rest of us. And I'm 88 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 1: very curious. I found myself thinking a lot about this 89 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: after we got off of our last zoom. I thought, well, well, 90 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 1: who was Jane as a schoolgirl? You know, what what 91 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: school did you grow up in? Because I I know 92 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: my experience as a schoolgirl meeting you, But but who 93 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: were you when you were that age, when you were 94 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: in you know, seventh or eighth grade. Were you always 95 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 1: really curious about the world. Did you love animals as 96 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: a child or did that come later? I was actually 97 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: born loving animals. My mother tells me that when I 98 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: was just eighteen months old, she found I had taken 99 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: a whole lot of earthworms to bed, and she said, Jane, 100 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: you were watching them so intently. I think you were 101 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: wondering how do they walk without legs. And you know, 102 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: because I was so curious as to where a hen's 103 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: egg came out of the hen, I couldn't see a 104 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: hole like that. And we'd gone to stay on a 105 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: farm in the country. And so I hid in a 106 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: hen house for four hours, aged four, four year old, 107 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: hiding for four hours. My mother didn't know where I was. 108 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: She even called the police. But I was very lucky 109 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: in having a supportive mother and this love of animals 110 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: she supported. And when I was growing up, it was 111 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: during World War two, so I don't think they even 112 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: made children's books anyway. We didn't have any money so 113 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: to speak of, so books came from libraries. But Mom 114 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: found books for me about animals. She said, well, Jane'll 115 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: learn to read more quickly. So the great thing, the 116 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: reason I'm saying this is that the most important thing 117 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: for a parent is to support the interests of the 118 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: child and not try and push them into some career 119 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: path that isn't important for the child. That so many 120 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: parents do that you know, you've got to go to 121 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: business school, you've got to get you've got to make money. 122 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: You weren't you wouldn't you wouldn't succeed unless you make money, 123 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: make money, make money, make money. And I've had young 124 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: people come up in tears. I'm saying, I don't want 125 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:11,679 Speaker 1: to go to business school. I don't want to do business. 126 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: I want to help the environment. Mm hmm. It's interesting, 127 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: you know, for me, my dad immigrated to the US 128 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: in the seventies and became a citizen when I was 129 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: twelve or thirteen, right right around that sort of crossover age, 130 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: and my mom's family came in my grandmother's generation, you know, 131 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: on a boat from Italy into the US, the sort 132 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: of nostalgic, famed stories of coming in through Ellis Island 133 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: and you know, signing your name in the book. And 134 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: even though my dad is an artist, there was definitely 135 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: that kind of a culture for me of you know, 136 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: you'll be a doctor or a lawyer, or you could 137 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: be a lawyer or a doctor. It was very specific 138 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: and and it was interesting, I think when I finally 139 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: got to tell my parents what I really wanted to do, 140 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: and I understood their fear. I think lots of parents 141 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 1: want their kids to have the most secure, if not 142 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: the most creative job. But you know, I got to 143 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: point up my dad and say, well, you turned your 144 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: hobby into your work. Both my parents thought, God, damn it. 145 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: She has a point, um. But I do think it's 146 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: so cool to realize that if, as you say, if 147 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,679 Speaker 1: a parent can release a little bit of that, you know, 148 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: grip on fear and lean into what their kids are 149 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,199 Speaker 1: passionate about. You know, look at look at what can happen. 150 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: Even as you say, you know you grew up during 151 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: the war, I imagine there were periods of austerity and struggle. 152 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,959 Speaker 1: What part of England were you in as a child? 153 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: Where where were you at that time? Right where I 154 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: am now, south of England, Bournemouth, and all that stood 155 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: between us and the might of the Germans Nazi Germany 156 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: was a little bit of scaffolding and Zimbabwe, because Britain 157 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:13,199 Speaker 1: wasn't prepared for war, and quite honestly, it seemed hopeless 158 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: because the rest of Europe had capitulated, they'd either been 159 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: defeated or surrendered, and it was just for a while, 160 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: it was just Britain standing up against the might of 161 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: Nazi Germany, and it was our air force and the 162 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 1: armed forces from the colonies. Otherwise the whole of Europe 163 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: would have been overrun by Nazi fascism, and so you know, 164 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: I was ten years old when the pictures from the 165 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: Holocaust were released and it taught me a lot. I mean, 166 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: I was very young when I learned about evil and 167 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: what true evil is. And seeing those first pictures of 168 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: the survivors of the Holocaust, these walking skeletons, I mean, 169 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 1: it was it made such a deep impression on me. 170 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: And I think the fact that having lived through that 171 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: time is with wrightening, austerity and all the rest of it, 172 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: taught me to take nothing for granted food or life. 173 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 1: And it also helped me to understand that however dark 174 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: the situation seems today, which it does, we're living in 175 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: dark times politically, socially, especially environmentally, But if Britain came 176 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: through that dark time, then we can again. We've got 177 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: that indomitable spirit. What I love about your what you're saying, 178 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:47,599 Speaker 1: is it it feels like a real merger between a 179 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: practical realism and hope. And I think we need that. 180 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 1: I think we need to be very frank about where 181 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: we are and remember the resiliency not just of the 182 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: human spirit but the planet. I wonder when you tell 183 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: that story, that kind of experience for a young child 184 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: is so sobering, and I imagine for so many of 185 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: you traumatic you know, to to learn evil at the 186 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: age of ten is is no small experience. Did that 187 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: real kind of reality check for a lack of a 188 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: of a better term in this moment of aha? For me? Uh? 189 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 1: Did did that experience influence the way that you advocate 190 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 1: the seriousness with which you talk about the way the 191 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: world treats itself? How can I tell? I don't know. 192 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: I had an amazing mother, had an amazing family. And 193 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: one of the things my mother did which was extraordinary, well, actually, 194 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: first of all, when I was ten, I dreamed of 195 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: going to f kind of living with wild animals and 196 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: writing books about them, and everybody laughed. Girls didn't that 197 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: sort of thing? Yeah? Ten, Yes, after reading the books 198 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: Mom found for me, and everybody laughed except Mom, and 199 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: she said, if you really want to do something like this, 200 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: you're going to have to work really hard, take advantage 201 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: of every opportunity, and if you don't give up, maybe 202 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: you find a way. That's the message I've taken to 203 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: young people all over the world, particularly in disadvantage communities, 204 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 1: and I wish Mom was around to know. How many 205 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 1: people have written to me or said to me, thank 206 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: you because you've taught me. Because you did it, I 207 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: can do it too. And that is a wonderful message 208 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: to take around. But the other thing that she did, 209 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: you know, I credit a lot of who I am 210 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: and what I've done to the way that she raised 211 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: me was that after the war, I mean, during the war, 212 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: you can imagine when London's being armed, when your relatives 213 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: are dying being shot down by the Germans, when there's 214 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:11,719 Speaker 1: the Blitz, people in London bodies destroyed, houses destroyed, huge areas. 215 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: My uncle was a doctor in London and he was 216 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: working desperately on the Blitz victims, and and so we 217 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: hated the Germans. You can imagine we hated them, and 218 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: you would hear the sound of a German voice and 219 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: it would make you feel cold inside. But after the war, 220 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: about five years after the war, there was a German 221 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: family that wanted someone to come and speak English so 222 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: that their children would learn to speak good English. And 223 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: Mom's friend said, you can't let Jane go to Germany. 224 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: But she let me go because she wanted me to 225 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: understand that Nazi Germany was not the same as Germany, 226 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: and that Germans were like us, and it was this 227 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: fanaticism that now we're seeing in different parts of the world. 228 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: That's such a beautiful thing that she did in that time. 229 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: You have this dream at ten, your mother says, lean 230 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: into it. The war ends, and and in your early 231 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: teen years you get this next incredible lesson that people 232 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: are not always their government's ideology. And then I know, 233 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: at twenty three you left for Kenya for your first 234 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: study in Africa. What what happened in between those years? 235 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: What happened in in Jane's life from you know, your 236 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: mid teens until you set off on that voyage. Well, 237 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: I did well at school. I didn't like school. It 238 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: was a day school. I didn't like it because I 239 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: wanted to be out in nature. I wanted to be 240 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: with my dog. I did not want to be in school. 241 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: But I was good at the lessons um I did well. 242 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: I was always up in the top three in exams, 243 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: for example. So when I left school, I couldn't afford 244 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: university because in those days you couldn't get scholarships unless 245 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: you were good in a foreign language, and I wasn't. 246 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: It's one thing I couldn't do, and so I had 247 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: to have a job. You know, I said, we have 248 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: very little money, and I we had just enough money 249 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: for a secretarial course. So I did a boring old 250 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: secretarial course. I was in London. I had fun. I 251 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: was you know. I enjoyed going out and having going 252 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: to the odd dance and meeting young men and this 253 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: certain the other. But the dream of Africa was always there. 254 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: And so when I was invited by a school friend 255 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: to go for a holiday in Kenya, that was the opportunity. 256 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: And I came home because you couldn't save money in London, 257 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: and I worked in a hotel around the corner, just 258 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: around there, as a waitress. And it was one of 259 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: those old fashioned hotels. It wasn't a fancy unlike today. 260 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,199 Speaker 1: So you went in and the rest of the staff 261 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: were all professional. Me just coming in, and they resented me. 262 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: They sat, well, Jane'll get invited out and she'll leave 263 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: us in their lature. Of course, I'm not like that. 264 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 1: I wouldn't do that. I took it very seriously. In fact, 265 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 1: Mom and I sometimes giggled over it. And it was 266 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 1: interesting because I got to know these Irish Catholics, that 267 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: the whole waiting staff was Irish Catholics except for one Italian, 268 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: and that the one man other than the wine waiter 269 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 1: was Italian. And so I found my way around in 270 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: this strange world. And of course in the end they 271 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: accepted me, totally, invited me to their weddings and things 272 00:17:55,240 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 1: like that, and finally I saved up enough money went 273 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: out to Africa when I was twenty three on a 274 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: boat because planes weren't going back and forth in those days, 275 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: that's how long ago it was. And the first place 276 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:14,360 Speaker 1: we landed was Cape Town because instead of going through 277 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: the Suez Canal, if you know your geography, there was 278 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 1: a war between Britain and Egypt, silly war, but the 279 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: Suez Canal was closed, so we had to go all 280 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: the way around Africa and landed in Cape Town for 281 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 1: the first time, and it was so excited. Africa was 282 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: in Africa, was on African soil. I'm on my way. 283 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: But then on the benches in the parks and on 284 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: the doors to the restaurants will be stopped for two 285 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: days while the ship refueled or whatever they do. And 286 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: it was all this writing in Africa and slix blanc, 287 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: slex blocks, slex block. So I said to their friends 288 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 1: who were taking me round? What does this mean? White 289 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: people only? And suddenly I couldn't leave fast enough because 290 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: I wasn't brought up that way. Wow. Yeah, as a 291 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: young woman too. To have been healing one war and 292 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:14,199 Speaker 1: then to enter into the horrors of apartheid must have 293 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: been quite a shock. It was horrible. So you begin 294 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: to understand what's happening then in South Africa. But only 295 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: two days in Cape Town, I mean, it's not long 296 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 1: too necessarily meet people ask questions about what's happening. You 297 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: said you couldn't get out of there fast enough, which 298 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: I feel like I understand. Were you able to glean 299 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: any kind of information about who was doing the work 300 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: there or was it so brief that you just got 301 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: back on the ship and continued on to get to Kenya. 302 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: I had an introduction to a person who had been 303 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 1: in the church in Bournemouth Congregational and he told me 304 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: some terrible stories, and the one that stuck with me. 305 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: He was walking along the street and there was a 306 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: bus coming and there was this African woman, old lady, 307 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: and she had carrying a heavy basket and one of 308 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: the handles broke and everything scattered over the road and 309 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: so he rushed to help her, and he said her 310 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 1: face turned gray under the black skin, and she said, 311 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: I'll get terribly punished if a white person is seen 312 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: helping me. That's how bad it was. How do you 313 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 1: begin to process that, you know, as a young woman, 314 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 1: because it's not lost on me that I would struggle 315 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 1: deeply if I witnessed something like that today and we're 316 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: talking about what sixty years ago maybe more. How do 317 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 1: you make sense of, oh, this is what injustice is 318 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 1: happening in this part of the world, and know that 319 00:20:57,920 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: you're not going to be able to stay there to 320 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: do anything about it. I mean, I couldn't do anything 321 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: about the Holocaust, could I was ten when I got 322 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 1: to Kenya. It was better. It was on the on 323 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: the brink of becoming independent from British colonialism, but realizing 324 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: that British colonial rule was crumbling in Kenya and then 325 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: subsequently in Tanzania, which was Tanganika when I arrived. You know, 326 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: I mean, you can't fix everything. One person can only 327 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: do the things that one person can do. And so 328 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: I've never spent a lot of time agonizing over things 329 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: I can't do. I mean, yes, do I get upset 330 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: am I upset about what's happening in Iran, that the 331 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 1: women years I am with the Taliban taking over. I 332 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,880 Speaker 1: can't do anything about it, and of course I hate it, 333 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 1: but I can only support people who write and say, 334 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: you know, I can't do anyth So there's no point 335 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: wasting all your energy on something you actually can do 336 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: something about when there are so many things you can 337 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 1: try and do something about. M M. That's hard. It's 338 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: a hard pill to swallow, but I think it can 339 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 1: be a very helpful advice to say you should always 340 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: ask questions, try to understand what's happening to people you know, 341 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: use your voice, be compassionate, and be clear about focusing 342 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,639 Speaker 1: your skill set on that which you can help the most. 343 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: I think sometimes and I hear this, you know, when 344 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 1: I Jane speak to young people in schools, they say, well, 345 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: I just don't know how to help. I don't know 346 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: what to work on. They feel so overwhelmed because they 347 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: do have so much information about all of these things 348 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: happening around the world. And I think that that is 349 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: a really excellent and again, um, it reminds me of 350 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: that since you gave me earlier of practical hope, you 351 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: have to really want to change the world for the 352 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: better and be practical about how much you as one 353 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: person can do yes. And you know, fortunately I've lived 354 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: long enough that I have a network of friends in 355 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: different fields. So one thing I can do is link 356 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: people together. Link the people who ask for help to 357 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 1: somebody who can help. Because right now, just about any 358 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: problem that the world is facing, there's a group of 359 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: people or several groups who are working on that particular problem. 360 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,360 Speaker 1: So as I know many of them now, just linking 361 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 1: them is something that one can do. Oh that makes 362 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: me so happy to hear you say that, because that's 363 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: something I really take great pleasure in. As well. There's 364 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,959 Speaker 1: the there's the whole world of each of our versions 365 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: of you know, public activism. And one of the things 366 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: that actually feels most fulfilling to me is the stuff 367 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: nobody knows about. When I am able to make an introduction, 368 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: can three people on an email or a text message 369 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 1: and and and make sure that we I think about 370 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: it almost as like um, you know, the nets under 371 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 1: the trapeze artists at the circus. It feels like that 372 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 1: to me, weaving these nets of support and that that's 373 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: a good reminder for anyone listening at home as well. 374 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 1: Sometimes the greatest gift you can give a cause is 375 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: connection to another. So we we now back to our steamship. 376 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: We now are arriving in Kenya and you're having this 377 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: first experience. You talk about always having had an interest 378 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 1: in animals and in primates. You've told the story many times, 379 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: so I won't ask you to repeat it. Of you know, 380 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: your stuffed chimpanzee that that you had is little Jane. 381 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: How did all of these things, this this series of coincidences, 382 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 1: the holiday and your interests, and your wonderfully supportive mom 383 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: who encouraged you to lean into animal study and science. 384 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,880 Speaker 1: Did all all those things just perfectly line up when 385 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: you met Louis Leakey? Because I'm thinking about this transition, 386 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 1: as as you mentioned, from secretarial work to winding up 387 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: in the gone By Stream National Park. How did that 388 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 1: shift happen? It followed perfectly because that boring old secretarial training. 389 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,239 Speaker 1: When I met Louis Leakey, because I heard, Jane, if 390 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: you're interested in animals, you should meet Louis Leakey. So 391 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: I went to see him at the Natural History Museum. 392 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: He was curator and he took me around and asked 393 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 1: me many questions. I think he was impressed I knew 394 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 1: so much, even though I had just come out from England, 395 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,199 Speaker 1: because I'd read every book I could. I spent hours 396 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: in the Natural History Museum in London, and guess what, 397 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: two days before he met me, his secretary had left. 398 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: He needed a secretary. So there I was, and I 399 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: was suddenly, I'm surrounded by all these people who could 400 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: answer my questions about the mammals and the birds and 401 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,400 Speaker 1: the reptiles, the amphibians, the insects of plants of Africa. 402 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 1: And he let me go on an expedition onto the 403 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: Serengetti planes, old of my gorge when all the animals 404 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: were there, and he was very impressed that I knew 405 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:22,919 Speaker 1: how to behave instinctively when I met a lion, and 406 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: when I met a rhino, he said I'd done exactly 407 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: the right thing. And so that's when he decided to 408 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: ask if I'd go and study chimps. I'd never dreamt 409 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 1: of chimpanzees. I mean, they were exotic, nobody knew, nobody 410 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: had studied them at all. And he wanted a woman 411 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: because he felt women might be more patient. He was 412 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: delighted I hadn't been to university because he said, you know, 413 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: your mind is uncluttered by the then very reductionist attitude 414 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: to animals that the ethologists had, and so it all 415 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: seemed to be leading in the same direction. And everything 416 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 1: I did, whether I wanted to do it or not, 417 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: prepared me for the next step. Incredible. And how old 418 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,679 Speaker 1: are you at this point? I was twenty three in 419 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,360 Speaker 1: those days. Twenty three year old today is quite sophisticated. 420 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 1: But after the war, you know, we were very sheltered. 421 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: There were no young people going out for overseas holidays. 422 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: Just they'd go as far as Switzerland for skiing if 423 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,959 Speaker 1: they could afford it, which we couldn't. But you know, 424 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: there weren't the sort of adventures that students go on today. 425 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: Absolutely there weren't. There was the World Tour for young 426 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 1: men who went around, usually with a tutor, but girls 427 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: were supposed to, you know, do some job. Maybe you 428 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,439 Speaker 1: could be a flight attendant, or you'll be a nurse, 429 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: or you could be a secretary, and you waited to 430 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 1: get married that sit It's so interesting to think about 431 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,199 Speaker 1: the the restraints placed on women at the time, and 432 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: yet here's your mentor, and he says you should go. 433 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,919 Speaker 1: It makes me think about how even today we're discussing 434 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: the gender disparities in STEM fields in you know, for 435 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: the folks listening at home science and technology, and we 436 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: hear stories about how difficult those avenues can be for 437 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:34,959 Speaker 1: women to get into. And I'm amazed and so not 438 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: only glad for you, but for us who've benefited from 439 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: your work that Louis Leakey said, I think you should 440 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: do this. While you had him encouraging and advocating for you, 441 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,959 Speaker 1: were you faced with other obstacles as a woman entering 442 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: the fields of anthropology and primatology, or or did his 443 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: blessing make other people take you seriously as well? No, Well, 444 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: you see, I was so lucky because basically there wasn't 445 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: anybody out in the field. It wasn't that I broke 446 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 1: into a male dominated I broke into a completely new 447 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: area of research. There was George Sella out studying gorillas, 448 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: which he managed to do for a year, and there 449 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: were two Americans in South Africa studying baboons. That was it. 450 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: There wasn't a feel primatology didn't exist. So the authologists 451 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: were studying birds and insects, and that was it, and that, 452 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: you know, at least at Cambridge when I finally got there, 453 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: my supervisor had a group of but captive monkeys. So 454 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: the most of the animal research when I began, if 455 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: there was any, was done on captive animals. There wasn't. 456 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: I wasn't competing with men. That's incredible when I think 457 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: about all of your study. You've served chimpanzees and primates 458 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: for such a long time, and you've really contributed so 459 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: much towards our understanding of our closest relatives on this earth. 460 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about the behaviors 461 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: you've witnessed in them that have made you perhaps better 462 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: understand human nature. Yes, well, chimpanzees are so like us 463 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: in so many ways. We know now how like us 464 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: they are biologically like. We differ in the structure of 465 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: DNA by only just over one that's all. Yeah, that's 466 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: all Genetically the DNA where ninety eight point six or 467 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: seven percent the same of the composition. The difference comes 468 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: in the expression of the genes and environment plays a 469 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: major role, but in their behavior, which is why Leaky 470 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: Leaky believed that about six million years ago there was 471 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: an ape like human like creature, because he spent his 472 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: life searching for the fossilized remains of early humans. So 473 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: he thought, because behavior doesn't fossilize, so you can tell 474 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: a lot about the creature from its skeleton. But he thought, well, 475 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: if James's behavior similar to humans in chimps today, then 476 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: maybe their behavior was in the common ancestor, and maybe 477 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: we've brought it with us through our long evolutionary separate pathways, 478 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: which I believe to be true. So you know, seeing 479 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: how they communicate with kissing, embracing, holding hands, patting one another, 480 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 1: seeing how the males compete for dominance, swaggering, looking as 481 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: big as they can, just like human male politicians, especially 482 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: some which you probably know even better than me. Um. 483 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: And then the strong ones between mothers and offspring, family 484 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: relationships that go on through a life of up to 485 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: sixty five years, and different kinds of mothers and the 486 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: offspring of the supportive mothers who risk everything to go 487 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: and rescue their child from a difficult situation, those offspring 488 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: do better, they're more self assured. Males reach a higher 489 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: position in the hierarchy and probably sign more kids, and 490 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: the females are better mothers. So because of all these similarities, 491 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: I mean, they have a kind of primitive war. They 492 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 1: can be brutal and violent, which was a shock. They 493 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: kill kill each other from neighboring communities. But they also 494 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: can show altruism. An unrelated male may adopt a motherless 495 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: infant and save its life. But because they're so like us, 496 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: you can stand back and say, yes, but but we're different. 497 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, chimps are a more intelligent than 498 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: anyone used to think, as are other animals, including right 499 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 1: down to the octopus and even insects. But I mean, 500 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: you know, we're talking to each other from different continents, 501 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: and we could if we wanted, we could have twenty 502 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: other people from twenty other conferences on our countries on 503 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: a zoom we've sent. You know, last week there was 504 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: a beautiful full moon, and when I look at it, 505 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 1: I mean I remember, you don't, but I remember the 506 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: first landing on the Moon and the orb science fiction 507 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: when I was a child, And every time I look 508 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: at that full moon, I think, wow, we put people 509 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: up there. And I tell people in my lectures, don't 510 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: take it for granted. Look at that moon and think 511 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: we put people up there, and now we've sent rockets 512 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: to Mars. So this biggest difference between chimps us and 513 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: other animals explosive to development of the intellect. So is 514 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: it not bizarre that this most intellectual creature it's destroying 515 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,879 Speaker 1: its only home. We don't want to go and live 516 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:14,400 Speaker 1: on Mars. We can't live on the Moon. We cannot 517 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: in our lifetimes get too far away planets that might 518 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: support similar life to that which we know. So we've 519 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: just got this one beautiful, blue and green planet and 520 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: we're destroying it as you and I speak. We're destroying 521 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:36,760 Speaker 1: the forests, We're polluting the oceans. Are stupid. Industrial agriculture 522 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: is killing the soil, spraying poison, losing biodiversity. We're trafficking animals, 523 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 1: which is why we have this pandemic, because we've created 524 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,319 Speaker 1: conditions where diseases can jump from an animal to a 525 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,280 Speaker 1: person where they may start a new so called zoootic disease. 526 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: We're burning fossil fuel, We're polluting the atmosphere. I mean, 527 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: we're stupid, stupid, stupid, And I think clever brain and 528 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: human heart have disconnected. Yeah, I think about how sometimes 529 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,280 Speaker 1: this this distance, this is you know, the longest twelve 530 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: inches and the universe. It really can be a struggle 531 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: for us to connect exactly what you're saying, the head 532 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: to the heart. Why do you think it is that 533 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:35,399 Speaker 1: humans believe? Again, in studying our closest relatives, where it's 534 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 1: really simply a difference of one percent of DNA and 535 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: genetic expression. Why do we think we're so special because 536 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 1: the Bible and other religions have told us so. M h. 537 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 1: I think that's really at the at the core of 538 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,879 Speaker 1: it when you think how what an important part some 539 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: kind of religion has played throughout human history. And you know, 540 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: there was a word mistranslated in the Bible in Genesis 541 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: where it says God gave dominion, gave man dominion over 542 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: the birds and the fish and everything. But actually the 543 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: proper translation of that Hebrew word is stewardship. That's very different, 544 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: and I think it's led to an enormous amount of 545 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,800 Speaker 1: abuse of animals. And all these animals I just mentioned 546 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 1: the ones being trafficked around the world that have led 547 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:41,839 Speaker 1: to zoonotic diseases, but the animals in our factory farms, 548 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 1: crowded in these cruel, horrible situations. The puppy mills of 549 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,880 Speaker 1: sports hunting. I mean, you can go around and add 550 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 1: on and on and on, cock fighting, dog fighting, you 551 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:57,399 Speaker 1: name it. And you know, now we know every one 552 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: of those animals is an individual with a personality capable 553 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 1: of feeling fear, terror, despair, and pain. And think of 554 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: the almost unimaginable scale of suffering. It's a cognitive dissonance. 555 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 1: It's it is truly so strange to me that, as 556 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 1: you say, dominion, what a word, that we think we 557 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,880 Speaker 1: are the rulers of a planet when really we're just guests. 558 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 1: We're destroyers of the planet. Mm hmm, like some rulers today. 559 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: That's the problem some governments are and presidents are so autocratic. 560 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. That's a big problem, which I suppose all 561 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,280 Speaker 1: boils down to a desire for control and a thirst 562 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 1: for power. And and that makes me curious about something 563 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier, and you you right, you know, your 564 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,880 Speaker 1: first two books, Shadow of Man and Through a Window, 565 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,479 Speaker 1: you chronicle what is said to potentially be the first 566 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: ever recorded instance of chimpanzee warfare, and war as we've 567 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: spoken about a variety of them already today again feels 568 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,359 Speaker 1: to me like a you know, a battle over dominance 569 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 1: and a thirst for power. What was it like to 570 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 1: see that kind of warfare in chimpanzees? I mean the 571 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,800 Speaker 1: first time you talk so much about the tenderness and 572 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,399 Speaker 1: the intricacies of their society and then to see this, 573 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 1: what what was that like as an experience for you? 574 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: It was totally totally horrible. The thing is a chimps. 575 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,359 Speaker 1: Male chimps are territorial, and they have a territory. And 576 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 1: when I began studying these chimps, I think I arrived 577 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: at a point when a rather big community was dividing. 578 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,800 Speaker 1: That's what I think. And probably because we fed bananas, 579 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: they stayed together a long good than they might have otherwise. 580 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: But anyway, this process of one group of males moving 581 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:11,360 Speaker 1: further south was sort of ongoing from the beginning, and 582 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: it was more males in the in the in the north, 583 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,359 Speaker 1: and a small group went south. But the problem was 584 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 1: that the smaller group settled in part of what had 585 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: been the range of the whole community when it was 586 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 1: before it split, and for four years there was not 587 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:34,320 Speaker 1: much going on. But then gradually the larger group began 588 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 1: doing these patrols and just awful to watch because they 589 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,919 Speaker 1: would climb into a tree, overlooking what you can think 590 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 1: of as the hostile territory of this new community that 591 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 1: had separated off and silent, and then seeing an individual 592 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 1: by itself and running and attacking and killing, not outright killing, 593 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: leaving the individual to die of the wounds. The awful 594 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: thing was these were chimps. It was a civil war. 595 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: These were chimps who had fed together, nest together, groom together, 596 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 1: played together. I knew them all and it was horrible. 597 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 1: That was That was the worst part. Okay, they're always territorial. 598 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,960 Speaker 1: They will attack individuals of a neighboring community, but they 599 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: don't know them, so there's a kind of reason for it. 600 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: You know, you're protecting your territory. But this was different. 601 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:32,879 Speaker 1: This was and they were treating these individuals not like 602 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 1: inn a normal quick chimp attack. They are quite aggressive, 603 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,239 Speaker 1: but they were treating them like animals that they kill 604 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: for food, using behavior that we never saw in attacks 605 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 1: between individuals in the same community. Twisting the limbs, drinking blood. 606 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,760 Speaker 1: I mean, you don't do that or somebody in your group. 607 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,319 Speaker 1: So it was horrible. I mean, they do have a 608 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 1: dark side. That that's what makes them so like us. 609 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 1: That kind of cruelty expressed, you know, to your neighbor 610 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 1: or for former family member, feels almost personal. Yeah, it 611 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 1: feels vengeful, which you wouldn't expect in in an animal. 612 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,400 Speaker 1: I suppose I think of them more like people and animals. 613 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,760 Speaker 1: People say, oh, chimps, after chimps, what's your favorite animal? 614 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,799 Speaker 1: I say, chimps are not my favorite animal. They're much 615 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: to like people, and I don't even think of them 616 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 1: as animals. That my favorite animal, of course, it's a dog, 617 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:35,840 Speaker 1: you and me both. What was your life like living 618 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,240 Speaker 1: and studying them for so long? How did you build 619 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: a life that you loved so far from home? Was 620 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 1: it that you were just so deeply inspired by what 621 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:48,879 Speaker 1: you saw every day? Did you feel more at home 622 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 1: in Africa than you did in London? Did you bring 623 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,719 Speaker 1: books with you, have a routine? What? What was your 624 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 1: what was your world there? Well? First, when I first 625 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,440 Speaker 1: went out, Mom was with me because they wouldn't allow 626 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,120 Speaker 1: me to go alone, and they said I had to 627 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,480 Speaker 1: have a companion, and Ma'm volunteered, so I had money 628 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,400 Speaker 1: for six months and she came for four and she 629 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,879 Speaker 1: boosted my morale because for four months they ran away. 630 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: They had never seen a white ape before. And she 631 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: also set up a clinic for the local fishermen, just 632 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:26,399 Speaker 1: simple aspirends and band aids and you know, those sort 633 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,759 Speaker 1: of simple things because she wasn't a doctor or nurse, 634 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,919 Speaker 1: and so established from the very beginning a really good 635 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,600 Speaker 1: relationship with the local people. They came for miles because 636 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,920 Speaker 1: she cured them with her simple cures. She spent hours 637 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 1: with each one, and then she left, and there was 638 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:51,760 Speaker 1: a cook and a boatman, and so every morning, every morning, 639 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 1: it's like nowadays, I don't have weekends. Then I didn't 640 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:59,920 Speaker 1: have weekends. Every morning, up before dawn, up into the 641 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:04,000 Speaker 1: mountains looking for the chimps sitting on this peak I 642 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 1: found using my binoculars, staying up there, getting back to 643 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 1: camp just before it was dark, and I knew those 644 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: mountains like it was my home. I mean, I loved it. 645 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,880 Speaker 1: This was what I dreamed of. And once the chimps 646 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: stopped running away, it was like magic. And then after 647 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 1: I saw David Graybeard using tools to fish for termites, 648 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:33,160 Speaker 1: something humans were supposed to be the only tool using 649 00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 1: making creatures. And that's where I got the pushback from 650 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 1: male scientists saying, why why should we believe this young 651 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,279 Speaker 1: girl and she's only getting money because she's got nice 652 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,240 Speaker 1: legs and she's not a geographic cover blah blah blah. 653 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 1: But anyway, this was when the geographic to support the 654 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 1: research and center photographer and filmmaker and so um being 655 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 1: out in the mountains on my own, there's something special 656 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,880 Speaker 1: that if you're on your own. And I always feel 657 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,600 Speaker 1: this connection to a great spiritual power when I'm out 658 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 1: in the forest, other wild places too, but specially the forest. 659 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:22,680 Speaker 1: And if you're alone, you forget your humanity. I can't 660 00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:26,080 Speaker 1: explain it well, but you're just part of nature, Whereas 661 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:30,360 Speaker 1: if you're with anybody, even somebody you love, it's two 662 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:34,680 Speaker 1: people in nature. Whereas if it's just you, you you are 663 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:39,200 Speaker 1: not there. You're just living as a part of the 664 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,120 Speaker 1: natural world. And that's why I know how terrible it 665 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:48,719 Speaker 1: is that young people today are being increasingly separated from 666 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,799 Speaker 1: the natural world, either because they're in the middle of 667 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:57,960 Speaker 1: cities or because they're more interested in Facebook and video 668 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 1: games and so on. It's a tragedy. If you don't 669 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,960 Speaker 1: get children out into nature so they learned to understand 670 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,440 Speaker 1: and love it, how do we expect them to protect it? 671 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,080 Speaker 1: And if we don't protect it. You know, we're part 672 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,959 Speaker 1: of the natural world. We're not separated from it. Even 673 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,399 Speaker 1: in a city. We depend on it. But clean air, 674 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:25,160 Speaker 1: for clean water, for food, childer everything, and we depend 675 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:30,880 Speaker 1: on healthy ecosystems. So the forest ecosystem to me, was 676 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:37,279 Speaker 1: like a beautiful tapestry of interrelated strands of the different species. 677 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:42,160 Speaker 1: And as species get extinct, so threads are pulled from 678 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:47,640 Speaker 1: the tapestry until it hangs in tatters and the ecosystem collapses. 679 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:53,040 Speaker 1: And we depend on healthy ecosystems, so we'd better start 680 00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:56,960 Speaker 1: doing something about it. We'd better start getting together to 681 00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:00,520 Speaker 1: heal some of the wounds we've inflicted. Feels like a 682 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:08,799 Speaker 1: you know, daunting but clearly very necessary coming together. Is 683 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:13,200 Speaker 1: that what inspired you to write your most recent book, 684 00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:16,919 Speaker 1: The Book of Hope, to to light that fire? Yes, 685 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 1: because if we lose hope, and many people are, but 686 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:24,160 Speaker 1: if you lose hope, you you you become apathetics. You know, 687 00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:27,440 Speaker 1: you feel helpless and hopeless and you don't do anything. 688 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,680 Speaker 1: And as more and more people lose hope, more and 689 00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:35,760 Speaker 1: more people stop taking action. So for me, hope isn't 690 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,719 Speaker 1: just wishful thinking. It's not sitting and thinking, oh, well, 691 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,520 Speaker 1: I'm sure it will be all right because blah blah blah. 692 00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,919 Speaker 1: It's and I thought the other day of that it's 693 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:51,320 Speaker 1: rather like where in the middle of a very very 694 00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:57,399 Speaker 1: dark tunnel filled with obstacles, and at the far end 695 00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:01,840 Speaker 1: it's a pinprick of light and that hope And to 696 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 1: get there you don't just sit and hope you'll get that. 697 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,160 Speaker 1: You have to work and fight to get that, overcome 698 00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:12,719 Speaker 1: the obstacles. And so we need the rallying cry is 699 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:16,640 Speaker 1: there is hope, but only if we take action, all 700 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:20,719 Speaker 1: of us. It has to be an active hope. That's 701 00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:24,200 Speaker 1: what hope is to me. It's not just wishful thinking. 702 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:29,760 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Is it that kind of commitment to taking 703 00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:34,719 Speaker 1: the action that really lead you two more directly take 704 00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,800 Speaker 1: on conservation efforts because you spent so long observing and 705 00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:45,560 Speaker 1: being a scientist and then forming and creating the mission 706 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:52,239 Speaker 1: around the Jane Goodall Institute. Your approach is about conservation 707 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:56,400 Speaker 1: and putting the focus and the power in local communities 708 00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:01,839 Speaker 1: so that each place can, in their own way, do 709 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:07,239 Speaker 1: that work for their community. What what led you to 710 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,880 Speaker 1: that approach when you were building out the institute, Because 711 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,839 Speaker 1: after I went to this conference in eight six I thought, well, 712 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,640 Speaker 1: I hear that chimps are vanishing and forest to being destroyed. 713 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,560 Speaker 1: A bit ago and travel around Africa and see what's 714 00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:24,400 Speaker 1: happening with my own eyes. I think you have to 715 00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:29,520 Speaker 1: see with your own eyes. And got together a bit 716 00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:34,120 Speaker 1: of money and went to six range countries and learned 717 00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,359 Speaker 1: a lot about the problems facing the chimps, that lots 718 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,400 Speaker 1: of habitat, the bush meat trade, people moving deeper and 719 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:45,399 Speaker 1: deeper into the forest with their diseases. But I learned 720 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:48,160 Speaker 1: about the plight of so many of the people, the 721 00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:52,360 Speaker 1: crippling poverty, the lack of good health and education, the 722 00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:56,160 Speaker 1: degradation of the land, the growth of the human population. 723 00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,200 Speaker 1: When I flew over Gombi, which had been part of 724 00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:03,520 Speaker 1: a great forest ist in the sixties and the seventies, 725 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,520 Speaker 1: But when when I flew over in the late eighties, 726 00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,799 Speaker 1: it was just a little island of forests as National Park, 727 00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:13,719 Speaker 1: where the chimps were surrounded by bear hills. And that's 728 00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,520 Speaker 1: when it hit me, if we don't help these people 729 00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:20,799 Speaker 1: find ways of living without destroying the environment, then we 730 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,560 Speaker 1: can't save chimps, forests or anything else. And so that 731 00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:29,680 Speaker 1: led to our Takari program, which is very holistic and 732 00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:35,720 Speaker 1: you know, includes restoring fertility to the overused land, scholarships 733 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:40,520 Speaker 1: to keep girls in school after puberty. As women's education improves, 734 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:45,600 Speaker 1: family sized tends to drop. We provide family planning information 735 00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:50,000 Speaker 1: and we've now taught the people. They volunteer and they 736 00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:54,520 Speaker 1: come to workshops to learn about monitoring the health of 737 00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:59,280 Speaker 1: their village forest reserves with smartphones. They're very proud of it. 738 00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,080 Speaker 1: It's all upload did into a platform in the clouds, 739 00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,520 Speaker 1: and we're now in a hundred and four villages throughout 740 00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:10,799 Speaker 1: all the Chimp range in Tanzania and in six other 741 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:16,839 Speaker 1: African countries, and the people are now our partners in conservation. 742 00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:20,440 Speaker 1: All of these villages. We have our youth program Roots 743 00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,719 Speaker 1: and Choots in the schools. In all the schools, so 744 00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:29,600 Speaker 1: all the children from kindergarten through university in sixty five 745 00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:34,759 Speaker 1: countries plus are choosing projects to make the world a 746 00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:38,920 Speaker 1: better place. A project to help people, a project help animals, 747 00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:43,920 Speaker 1: a project help the environment. HM. I love it and 748 00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:48,000 Speaker 1: I think it's so important, especially as we take stock 749 00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,839 Speaker 1: of what's happening around the world, you realize that so 750 00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,759 Speaker 1: many of these places, you know, chimp territories that you're 751 00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,759 Speaker 1: talking about, and other regions around the world that are 752 00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:03,520 Speaker 1: rich in resource are often cannibal by larger foreign capitalist 753 00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:10,239 Speaker 1: corporate systems. And to create as you have a platform 754 00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:16,080 Speaker 1: for people to understand the value of their spaces is profound. 755 00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:18,200 Speaker 1: I mean it. It was profound for me to be 756 00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,439 Speaker 1: parts of part of Roots and Shoots as a little kid. 757 00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:24,200 Speaker 1: And I know we spoke about this before, but for 758 00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:26,520 Speaker 1: the listeners at home, I've touched on this a little 759 00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:30,520 Speaker 1: bit um over the last year. But the silver lining 760 00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:35,959 Speaker 1: for me of this slow down, shutdown, you know, experience 761 00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:39,120 Speaker 1: of working from home in the pandemic was really being 762 00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:43,640 Speaker 1: able to cultivate my little bit of land in the 763 00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:47,320 Speaker 1: city I live in and plant an abundance of trees 764 00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:51,360 Speaker 1: and and I'm I'm keeping bees. I have two huge 765 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:55,120 Speaker 1: beehives in a garden. And to see the way that 766 00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,799 Speaker 1: even in this yard that I didn't think I could 767 00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:02,759 Speaker 1: do anything with, I've been able to create a little ecosystem. 768 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:07,120 Speaker 1: It's it's really inspired me that there's no project too 769 00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:14,359 Speaker 1: big or too small if we lean into fostering healthy land. Yeah. Well, 770 00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,640 Speaker 1: that's the main message of Roots and Shoots, which is 771 00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:21,640 Speaker 1: for everybody that every individual matters has a role to play. 772 00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,400 Speaker 1: And every day we live, we make a difference on 773 00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:27,480 Speaker 1: the planet, and we can choose what sort of difference 774 00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:29,600 Speaker 1: we make. What we buy, Where did it come from, 775 00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:32,160 Speaker 1: did it all on the environment, was it ruled to animals? 776 00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:36,520 Speaker 1: Is it cheap because of unfair wages or forced labor? 777 00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:43,480 Speaker 1: And But until that, part of what we need to 778 00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:45,759 Speaker 1: do to make a better world is to think how 779 00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:49,839 Speaker 1: we live on the sort of ecological footprint we make. 780 00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:53,680 Speaker 1: But that can't work until we alleviate poverty, because if 781 00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:56,759 Speaker 1: you're really poor, you can't make those choices. You have 782 00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:01,200 Speaker 1: to buy the cheapest. Um. We can't ask how it 783 00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,560 Speaker 1: was made, you can't talk about the ethics of it. 784 00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:08,680 Speaker 1: You just have to buy the cheapest to survive. So, 785 00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:10,799 Speaker 1: you know, there's an awful lot we have to do. 786 00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:15,240 Speaker 1: We have to alleviate poverty. We have to do something 787 00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:19,440 Speaker 1: about the unsustainable lifestyle of the rest of us. We 788 00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:25,880 Speaker 1: have to make sure that environmental and humanitarian education is 789 00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:31,120 Speaker 1: in all the schools. We have to think about our 790 00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:34,560 Speaker 1: population because right now there's seven point I think it's 791 00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:38,439 Speaker 1: seven now some point seven billion of us and it's 792 00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:42,720 Speaker 1: estimated by twenty fifties will be closer to ten billion. 793 00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:47,040 Speaker 1: And already we're using up natural resources in some place 794 00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,359 Speaker 1: as faster than nature can replenish them. So what's going 795 00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:54,560 Speaker 1: to happen. We cannot go on with business as usual, 796 00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:59,240 Speaker 1: and hopefully this pandemic has woken people up. We must 797 00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:03,000 Speaker 1: find a new relationship with the natural world and animals. 798 00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:09,239 Speaker 1: We must because otherwise our species will become extinct. It's 799 00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:12,360 Speaker 1: not just the rest of the animals with climate change 800 00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:16,839 Speaker 1: and biodiversity loss, it's us. Yes, So if we care 801 00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:21,040 Speaker 1: about our children, we need to change the way. We 802 00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,839 Speaker 1: need to change mindsets. And you touched on that when 803 00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:30,280 Speaker 1: you talked about as we encroach into more wild spaces, 804 00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:36,279 Speaker 1: we are responsible for creating the rise in zoonotic diseases. 805 00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:41,520 Speaker 1: We see viruses like the Avian flu and this year 806 00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:46,120 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen. These are caused by environmental stress and destruction 807 00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:51,719 Speaker 1: done by humans. Can can you explain for people who 808 00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:54,680 Speaker 1: are less familiar with that science than you are as 809 00:54:54,680 --> 00:55:01,359 Speaker 1: an expert, how human activity contributes to epidemics. Well, one thing, 810 00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,960 Speaker 1: we penetrate deeper and deeper into animal habitats and force 811 00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:11,919 Speaker 1: some species closer to humans and occasionally, that creates an 812 00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:15,719 Speaker 1: environment where it's relatively easy for a pathogen like a 813 00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,919 Speaker 1: virus to jump from an animal to a person where 814 00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:23,719 Speaker 1: it may form a new disease. And in addition, we 815 00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:28,720 Speaker 1: hunt them, we sell them in wildlife markets, we traffick 816 00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:32,920 Speaker 1: them around the world, We cram them into tiny factory 817 00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:39,280 Speaker 1: farms in cruel conditions, and all these stressed, distressed animals 818 00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:43,440 Speaker 1: um it apparently makes it easier for a pathogen to 819 00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:47,439 Speaker 1: jump over to a human. And so these so called 820 00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:51,799 Speaker 1: zoonotic diseases, you know, this pandemic is one, and then 821 00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:56,360 Speaker 1: there was stars, and then there was Mars and HIV aids. 822 00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:04,560 Speaker 1: All were zoonotic diseases. They say seventy of all newly 823 00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:11,400 Speaker 1: emerging diseases in humans is from animals. M hm. So 824 00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:14,360 Speaker 1: we need all have a different relationship with animals and 825 00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:19,240 Speaker 1: treat them as they are sentient beings with feelings and personalities. 826 00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:23,000 Speaker 1: And that's why the talks going on now at fairly 827 00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:27,920 Speaker 1: high levels to ban the wildlife trade so important. But 828 00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:30,400 Speaker 1: it's not going to be easy because it's a multi 829 00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:36,880 Speaker 1: billion dollar um industry, this illegal wildlife trade. When I 830 00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:41,640 Speaker 1: see those photos of people out sport hunting I just can't. 831 00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:46,280 Speaker 1: I truly can't understand it. I can't understand how someone 832 00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:53,400 Speaker 1: feels tough killing an animal for fun. I genuinely it 833 00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:57,400 Speaker 1: feels um. It feels like a rip in the matrix. 834 00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:59,480 Speaker 1: To me, I just go, what are you doing? It's 835 00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:04,680 Speaker 1: horrible and and I think about ways to combat that culture, 836 00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:09,400 Speaker 1: but also to your point, create new relationships to the 837 00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:13,640 Speaker 1: way that we live and interact with animals. And I 838 00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:18,880 Speaker 1: do think that we need policy to change bands on 839 00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:24,080 Speaker 1: the wildlife trade, bands on sport hunting, all of those things. 840 00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:27,760 Speaker 1: And I think again, bringing it back to the advocacy 841 00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:32,120 Speaker 1: that you do and the empowerment uh the potential that 842 00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:37,040 Speaker 1: we find when we empower communities, when we think about 843 00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:43,120 Speaker 1: protecting wildlife zones, protecting wetlands, which you know, speaking of 844 00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:45,840 Speaker 1: climate change, can help save humans from the effects of 845 00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:52,360 Speaker 1: things like hurricanes. When you support through the Institute the 846 00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:58,400 Speaker 1: Trillion Trees Initiative, for example, I think about reforesting the 847 00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:02,960 Speaker 1: earth and and tactic for us and keeping us farther 848 00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:08,240 Speaker 1: from these wildlife habitats. That to me feels like something 849 00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:10,160 Speaker 1: I want to lean into, and I imagine a lot 850 00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:14,880 Speaker 1: of listeners will as well. Can you describe trillion trees 851 00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:18,440 Speaker 1: and tell people how they might get involved. Well, the 852 00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:23,360 Speaker 1: trillion Tree campaign was launched at DeVos two years ago. 853 00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:29,760 Speaker 1: Only two years ago. Wow, yeah, I was launched by 854 00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:34,360 Speaker 1: UM Salesforce. I helped to launch it. UM. It's not 855 00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:37,640 Speaker 1: that the trillion trees I mean doesn't really mean much 856 00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:41,479 Speaker 1: to me. What's important to me is that we need 857 00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:45,280 Speaker 1: to protect the protecting is far more important. Protect the 858 00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:49,680 Speaker 1: forests we have left with their rich biodiversity. And you know, yes, 859 00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:53,480 Speaker 1: we should also plant trees, but it's going to take 860 00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:58,680 Speaker 1: a while for trees, especially in temperate zones, to grow 861 00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:03,000 Speaker 1: big enough to absorb the necessary amount of c O two. 862 00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:07,000 Speaker 1: But the Chinese have a wonderful proverb. The best time 863 00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:10,040 Speaker 1: to plant a tree is twenty years ago. The second 864 00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:13,920 Speaker 1: best time is now and so. But you know what's 865 00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:17,720 Speaker 1: important planting a tree isn't just sticking a tree in 866 00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,400 Speaker 1: the ground. It's got to be the right species, the 867 00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:23,680 Speaker 1: right time of year, and the right soil, and it's 868 00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:28,120 Speaker 1: got to be looked after. So sometimes these huge government 869 00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:31,080 Speaker 1: initiatives where they say we're going to try to plant 870 00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:34,600 Speaker 1: a million trees in a week or something, how many 871 00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:38,640 Speaker 1: of those trees live and very often when it's investigated, 872 00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:44,760 Speaker 1: not many do. So the Trees for Jane has very 873 00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:49,600 Speaker 1: tough standards and the price to plant a tree in 874 00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:54,560 Speaker 1: our project is more than many others because it includes 875 00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:58,600 Speaker 1: after care of the tree. And so we Trees for 876 00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:04,000 Speaker 1: Jane is in support of this large, trilliant tree which 877 01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:08,040 Speaker 1: is more dealing with big corporations and governments and were 878 01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:12,680 Speaker 1: grassroots and that that was a piece that was missing 879 01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:16,080 Speaker 1: from the Trillion Trees. So they're very happy about it. 880 01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:20,080 Speaker 1: I love that. So how can how can the average 881 01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:26,280 Speaker 1: listener then assistant advocating for the kind of reforestation that 882 01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:31,280 Speaker 1: you're talking about? Firstly and most importantly protecting habitats that exist, 883 01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:36,600 Speaker 1: and then secondly, when trees are being planted in initiatives 884 01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:40,920 Speaker 1: like this, to make sure that they're cared for and 885 01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:44,720 Speaker 1: fostered to survive, so that you know, by the time 886 01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:50,959 Speaker 1: we're all grandparents, those trees will still be living. How 887 01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:53,680 Speaker 1: how best can we use our voices for that? Well, 888 01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:57,000 Speaker 1: we've picked Trees for Jane has picked I think it's 889 01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:00,560 Speaker 1: five partners. Remember it's very new. When we haven't we 890 01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:03,480 Speaker 1: haven't got there yet. But there is a website and 891 01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:06,360 Speaker 1: you can click on a button which says that you 892 01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:10,960 Speaker 1: want to help protect forests, and that means with our 893 01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:18,320 Speaker 1: six partners who who haven't trusted track record mum money 894 01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:22,560 Speaker 1: goes to to the projects that are protecting forests, and 895 01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:26,000 Speaker 1: it will go to things like forest monitors and rangers 896 01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:29,880 Speaker 1: and all the people who are protecting these forests and woodlands. 897 01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:34,320 Speaker 1: And you can also just press a button and pay 898 01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:37,120 Speaker 1: a certain amount of money to plant it if you 899 01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:39,920 Speaker 1: plant a tree, or pay for the tree to be 900 01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:44,440 Speaker 1: planted by people planting trees. But these are all going 901 01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:48,720 Speaker 1: to projects that have got a good track record, and 902 01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:56,560 Speaker 1: there are three scientists who are monitoring where the money goes. Wonderful, 903 01:01:56,760 --> 01:01:59,520 Speaker 1: So that's you know, that's how that's how you can 904 01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:03,160 Speaker 1: end as well as we possibly can that the tree 905 01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:08,240 Speaker 1: will survive. Mm hmm. And what about for listeners who 906 01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:12,440 Speaker 1: want to help to protect endangered species? How can they 907 01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:14,600 Speaker 1: get more involved in your work? Well, there are a 908 01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:19,280 Speaker 1: lot of organizations protecting endangered species and you can find 909 01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:21,960 Speaker 1: it all on the website. You know, people want to 910 01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:26,320 Speaker 1: well our roots and shoots groups. We have groups protecting coala's, 911 01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:34,160 Speaker 1: protecting pangolins, protecting rhinos, protecting chimps, protecting guerrillas. We all 912 01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:37,120 Speaker 1: around the world are young people because they can choose 913 01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:39,760 Speaker 1: their projects, so you know they all have different You 914 01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:43,840 Speaker 1: knows a lot protecting turtles. There's a big push now 915 01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:47,960 Speaker 1: across the US to protect the migration route of the 916 01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:51,240 Speaker 1: monarch butterfly. And you can do such a lot by 917 01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:55,000 Speaker 1: plant allowing milkweed to grow in your in your yard. 918 01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:58,680 Speaker 1: So there's all kinds of different ways. And if you 919 01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:03,480 Speaker 1: just browse around in the internet about protecting endangered species, 920 01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:07,000 Speaker 1: you'll find hundreds of ways you can help. And if 921 01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:09,640 Speaker 1: somebody wants to help something different, you can't help them all, 922 01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:14,760 Speaker 1: but but we can all lean into something and that 923 01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:19,120 Speaker 1: feels exciting. I I'm curious, Jane, because it seems to 924 01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:22,920 Speaker 1: me that you are constantly leaning into more more books, 925 01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:26,520 Speaker 1: and more advocacy and more speaking engagements or more zooms, 926 01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:29,640 Speaker 1: and and you're even leaning into a podcast. And I 927 01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:32,240 Speaker 1: love that you've called it the Jane Got All Hope 928 01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:36,400 Speaker 1: Cast because you always come back to Hope. I'm curious 929 01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:41,120 Speaker 1: how you would describe your show to someone who might 930 01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:45,040 Speaker 1: be a potentially new listener. Well, the hope cost is 931 01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:52,480 Speaker 1: choosing people from different different spheres with different expertise um 932 01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:58,080 Speaker 1: and talking to them, and always it's about yes, what's 933 01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:03,560 Speaker 1: gone wrong, but positive ways, so people who have solutions 934 01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:06,360 Speaker 1: to some of the problems. So it's not just the 935 01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:08,560 Speaker 1: kind of doom and gloom we get from so much 936 01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:13,040 Speaker 1: of the media, but it's yes, there are these terrible problems. 937 01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:17,360 Speaker 1: It's like that dark tunnel, but there are solutions. We know. 938 01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:22,480 Speaker 1: We've got these amazing brains. We know how to restore 939 01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:27,760 Speaker 1: health to damage soil damaged by our stupid agriculture or 940 01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:31,520 Speaker 1: that we've built over it or something. There are ways 941 01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:33,280 Speaker 1: and we know that we know what they are. We 942 01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:37,920 Speaker 1: just have to get more governments to subsidize these projects, 943 01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:43,480 Speaker 1: and we can use renewable energy. And again, governments prefer 944 01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:48,840 Speaker 1: very often to to subsidize oil and gas. It's sort 945 01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:55,040 Speaker 1: of sort of old cronies network, and so it's changing attitude, 946 01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:59,440 Speaker 1: changing mindset, which I try to do through telling stories. 947 01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:02,400 Speaker 1: So in the Hope Cost we tell a lot of 948 01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:06,919 Speaker 1: stories and they're about very different like we've done one 949 01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:12,000 Speaker 1: on under the Sea with Craig Foster, who did My 950 01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:17,720 Speaker 1: Octopus Teacher. We've talked with the environmental head of Apple, 951 01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:23,880 Speaker 1: We've talked with I can't remember now, I mean, I've 952 01:05:23,920 --> 01:05:26,280 Speaker 1: done so many other things as well as Hope cost 953 01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:30,680 Speaker 1: so many other people's podcasts and hope you know, I mean, 954 01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:35,680 Speaker 1: my mind is so choker block, I can't remember what 955 01:05:35,840 --> 01:05:39,640 Speaker 1: I've done. You've done a lot, Jane, You've done a lot, 956 01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:42,720 Speaker 1: and you've inspired so many of us, and I'm so 957 01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:45,560 Speaker 1: grateful you've taken the time today to come on this podcast. 958 01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:50,160 Speaker 1: And as the theme of it goes, I'm very curious 959 01:05:50,200 --> 01:05:54,680 Speaker 1: to ask you this question. Given all you've done, you know, 960 01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:58,920 Speaker 1: the accolades, the awards. Again, most recently we saw each 961 01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:02,560 Speaker 1: other for the Templeton Prize. You You've you've shown up 962 01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:06,560 Speaker 1: in such immense ways for the planet, for people, for animals. 963 01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:11,200 Speaker 1: What as you look at everything you're doing now, what 964 01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:15,000 Speaker 1: in your life feels like a work in progress? To you? 965 01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:18,600 Speaker 1: Which is at work in progress? I mean, I've always 966 01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:22,960 Speaker 1: said that you know, when you when you think ahead 967 01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:25,520 Speaker 1: to where you want to go, you better aim for 968 01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:28,240 Speaker 1: the stars. You might get to the moon. If you're 969 01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:29,960 Speaker 1: any aim for the moon, you might get to the 970 01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:32,760 Speaker 1: top of Everest. So I like aiming for the stars. 971 01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:36,479 Speaker 1: So goal is to get roots and chootes into as 972 01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:40,680 Speaker 1: many schools as possible, and it is kindergarten through university 973 01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:47,320 Speaker 1: and and beyond and create a critical mass of people 974 01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:51,080 Speaker 1: who understand that. Of course we need money to live, 975 01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:54,840 Speaker 1: most of us, but it goes wrong when we live 976 01:06:55,080 --> 01:06:58,680 Speaker 1: for money unless we live to make money to help 977 01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:01,959 Speaker 1: make the world a better place, which is a good 978 01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:05,200 Speaker 1: thing to do, especially if the money goes to the 979 01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:08,320 Speaker 1: Jane Goodle Institute for all our projects, which I know 980 01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:12,200 Speaker 1: a good they're changing. You know, you can't imagine the 981 01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:16,360 Speaker 1: number of Roots and Shoots people who who write to 982 01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:19,919 Speaker 1: me and say, well, it's changed my life. I never 983 01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:22,840 Speaker 1: used to think like this. Now now I know that 984 01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:24,720 Speaker 1: there is a way forward and I'm going to do 985 01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:28,240 Speaker 1: my bid. You know, when I go to China we 986 01:07:28,360 --> 01:07:32,200 Speaker 1: started there in nine, adults come up to me and say, well, 987 01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:34,680 Speaker 1: of course I care about animals in the environment. I 988 01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:38,680 Speaker 1: was in Roots and Shoots in primary school, so it 989 01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:42,040 Speaker 1: has literally and also young people are changing their parents 990 01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:49,200 Speaker 1: and their grandparents all the time. It's wonderful. That's really wonderful. 991 01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:52,160 Speaker 1: What Jane. Thank you. Thank you for your work and 992 01:07:52,200 --> 01:07:55,440 Speaker 1: your activism, the programs that you've made so accessible to 993 01:07:55,560 --> 01:08:08,120 Speaker 1: so many of us, and for joining us today