WEBVTT - Darren Walker

0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:05.200
<v Speaker 1>One of the most influential figures in the world of

0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:08.600
<v Speaker 1>philanthropy is Darren Walker. He currently heads the Ford Foundation

0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:11.879
<v Speaker 1>and has revolutionized it's giving. He also is an influential

0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:13.960
<v Speaker 1>figure in the world of culture and arts. Had a

0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:16.200
<v Speaker 1>chance to sit down with him recently to talk about

0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:19.279
<v Speaker 1>how he rose from very modest circumstances in Texas to

0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:22.160
<v Speaker 1>become such a leading figure in the worlds of philanthropy,

0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:24.759
<v Speaker 1>culture and art. So, Darren, as the head of the

0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:27.040
<v Speaker 1>Ford Foundation, you're one of the most important people in

0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:29.200
<v Speaker 1>the world of philanthropy. But tell us how has the

0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:32.320
<v Speaker 1>ward of philanthropy changed because of COVID. Well, I'm not

0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:35.120
<v Speaker 1>sure I agree that I'm the most important. I think

0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:37.639
<v Speaker 1>I am part of a constellation of people who are

0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:42.279
<v Speaker 1>lucky enough to lead foundations like Ford, Rockefell or McArthur,

0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:47.879
<v Speaker 1>any of the great legacies. But COVID has absolutely impacted

0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:53.080
<v Speaker 1>how we do our work, both internationally and domestically. Let's

0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:57.480
<v Speaker 1>start with internationally. The reality of this moment is that

0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:01.480
<v Speaker 1>we are seeing tremendous inequality and the ways in which

0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:07.240
<v Speaker 1>vaccines are being distributed, the ways in which they're being manufactured,

0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:12.319
<v Speaker 1>UH and the issues around cost, intellectual property which are

0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:17.600
<v Speaker 1>profound and are having a tremendous negative impact, especially for

0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:20.800
<v Speaker 1>people in Africa and much of the global South. In

0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:24.880
<v Speaker 1>the United States, we know that COVID has meant that

0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:31.600
<v Speaker 1>communities that are historically the most vulnerable are doubly impacted

0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:34.160
<v Speaker 1>because of COVID UM and so what that is meant

0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:37.600
<v Speaker 1>for philanthropy is that we've had to double down in

0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:42.399
<v Speaker 1>some ways UM and also recognize that in the United States, UH,

0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:48.040
<v Speaker 1>the COVID moment has coincided with the George Floyd racial

0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:52.240
<v Speaker 1>reckoning moment, and that has brought into stark relief the

0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:55.920
<v Speaker 1>challenges for people of color, especially in low income communities. Okay,

0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:58.640
<v Speaker 1>let's talk about the Ford Foundation. Is something you've done

0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:01.360
<v Speaker 1>is innovative to deal with COVID. It So, when COVID came,

0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:05.000
<v Speaker 1>you convinced the Ford Foundation trustees and some others will

0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:07.600
<v Speaker 1>talk about to borrow money. You went out and borrowed

0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:10.359
<v Speaker 1>a billion dollars. Why did you need to do that?

0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:13.000
<v Speaker 1>What we needed to do that because, as you recall,

0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:15.800
<v Speaker 1>at the beginning of COVID, back in March and April

0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:20.240
<v Speaker 1>of the markets were very choppy, and what I was

0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:23.640
<v Speaker 1>concerned about was on the one hand, on the need side,

0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:28.400
<v Speaker 1>we were hearing from many arts organizations, organizations working on

0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:32.959
<v Speaker 1>food security and direct services that they were in a

0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:36.960
<v Speaker 1>huge distress. Remember, arts organizations had closed their doors, there

0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:41.560
<v Speaker 1>was no revenue UH, the nonprofit fundraisers had been canceled.

0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:45.840
<v Speaker 1>UH donors were beginning to get a little nervous about pledges.

0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:50.000
<v Speaker 1>So we would see the need to increase our spending

0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:55.280
<v Speaker 1>while at the same time, our our denominator, our endowment,

0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:58.200
<v Speaker 1>was going down in value. And I'd seen that happen

0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:02.600
<v Speaker 1>in UH in the last UH down market cycle, where

0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:05.160
<v Speaker 1>the need went up and our endowment went down. So

0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:09.200
<v Speaker 1>in order to really address the need side while maintaining

0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:14.240
<v Speaker 1>I think good fiscal responsibility of managing the endowment UM.

0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:17.680
<v Speaker 1>And of course, because of the luck of of having JEROMEE.

0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:20.359
<v Speaker 1>Powell in charge of the FED and basically announcing in

0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:24.200
<v Speaker 1>the middle of March that money was free, I mean

0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:27.720
<v Speaker 1>basically UM, and what happened with the yolkerve made it

0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:30.200
<v Speaker 1>really quite possible for us to think about debt as

0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:33.600
<v Speaker 1>opposed to taking money out of the endowment, and so

0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:36.240
<v Speaker 1>it was really just a matter of arbitrage, and so

0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:38.800
<v Speaker 1>it was hard to convince your trustees to do that.

0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:41.880
<v Speaker 1>Initially they thought it was out of the box, of course,

0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:45.240
<v Speaker 1>because because no foundation had done that before. But once

0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:50.680
<v Speaker 1>especially the Investment Committee UH started to think about the options,

0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:52.760
<v Speaker 1>it became clear that it was the best option. Were

0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:54.960
<v Speaker 1>you able to get other large foundations in the shame

0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:56.960
<v Speaker 1>and in terms of borrowing money, there were a number

0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:01.880
<v Speaker 1>of foundations who have done this, so McArthur Kellogg, Doroth

0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:04.720
<v Speaker 1>Duke um and we now have probably eight or ten

0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:07.640
<v Speaker 1>who have issued bonds. But the bigger message was that

0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:11.640
<v Speaker 1>we needed to do more that simply going by the

0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:15.040
<v Speaker 1>I r S minimum of five percent payout in the

0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:18.200
<v Speaker 1>time of COVID at a time ultimately when we had

0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:21.440
<v Speaker 1>more money than ever it simply was not more morally

0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:25.040
<v Speaker 1>defensible has been five percent. So let's talk about George Floyd.

0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:27.960
<v Speaker 1>You mentioned him earlier. You've lived through the Civil rights

0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:31.760
<v Speaker 1>revolution in the sixties, and we had the post civil

0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:34.120
<v Speaker 1>rights efforts in the seventies and eighties. But it seems

0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:37.800
<v Speaker 1>as if not until George Floyd was murdered did some

0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:40.640
<v Speaker 1>people in the corporate world and the government takes seriously

0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:44.320
<v Speaker 1>the discrimination and other challenges that African Americans faced. Is

0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:47.679
<v Speaker 1>there that your perception that George Floyd had an incredible impact,

0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:50.720
<v Speaker 1>more than you might have thought one murder might have had. Well,

0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:54.680
<v Speaker 1>I think what was different, David, was that first we

0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:59.800
<v Speaker 1>were all at home as a country, and secondly, this

0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:07.479
<v Speaker 1>was fully videotaped from the moment he was put on

0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:15.320
<v Speaker 1>the ground until his last breath, and that it was photographed. Uh,

0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:20.839
<v Speaker 1>that it was videotaped, and that the perpetrator was fully

0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:27.039
<v Speaker 1>aware that he was killing someone and clearly assumed that

0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:30.719
<v Speaker 1>he could do that with impunity. I think that is

0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:38.279
<v Speaker 1>what we Americans, the average American found so appalling and

0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:42.040
<v Speaker 1>so anathetical to our values as a people, and so

0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:45.920
<v Speaker 1>it had a huge impact far beyond the issue of

0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:49.200
<v Speaker 1>policing and civil rights to the boardroom. You think it

0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:51.599
<v Speaker 1>will be enduring, in other words, the boardroom. Now there's

0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:53.880
<v Speaker 1>a big effort to have more African Americans and more

0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:56.120
<v Speaker 1>women on boards. But do you think that well last

0:05:56.279 --> 0:05:58.120
<v Speaker 1>or is it just for a short period of time

0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:00.720
<v Speaker 1>after the George Floyd murder. Well, there's no doubt that

0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:07.039
<v Speaker 1>some of the rhetoric from some CEOs was performative. But

0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:10.600
<v Speaker 1>I believe that we are seeing a real paradigm shift

0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:16.360
<v Speaker 1>where we understand that diversity in the boardroom is more

0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:19.080
<v Speaker 1>than one. You know, I'm I'm been a member of

0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:21.360
<v Speaker 1>some public company boards, and there was a time when

0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:24.880
<v Speaker 1>there would be one black and one Hispanic and that

0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:29.120
<v Speaker 1>and maybe one or two white women, and you had diversity.

0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:33.760
<v Speaker 1>I think now we understand that that's really tokenism. Diversity

0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:38.839
<v Speaker 1>is fully embracing the idea of the intersection of talent

0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:41.440
<v Speaker 1>and representation and that you can get both. Do you

0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:45.520
<v Speaker 1>think discrimination against African Americans just greater than discrimination against

0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:49.479
<v Speaker 1>people who are gay. I think that race is a

0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:54.159
<v Speaker 1>very challenging UM feature of American life, and when you

0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:59.640
<v Speaker 1>look at the progress of LGBT, when you think about

0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:05.119
<v Speaker 1>something marriage equality UH, which polled in the low double

0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:09.520
<v Speaker 1>digits UH as recently as fifteen years ago, and now

0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:13.240
<v Speaker 1>a majority of American support UM. I think part of

0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:18.400
<v Speaker 1>the reason for the progress was because most Americans, most

0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:23.760
<v Speaker 1>white Americans could relate. They could relate to Ellen Degenerous

0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:27.600
<v Speaker 1>coming out on ABC on National TV because she was

0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:29.600
<v Speaker 1>the girl next door that they've fallen in love with

0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:32.720
<v Speaker 1>for five seasons. They could relate to some of the

0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:36.520
<v Speaker 1>people who were on the front lines leading the efforts

0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:40.440
<v Speaker 1>UH in the marches Um. They knew that these young

0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:44.760
<v Speaker 1>people were their children and grandchildren. It is harder on

0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:49.720
<v Speaker 1>the issue of race, and it's because in this country, UH,

0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:56.000
<v Speaker 1>we have a difficult history. I love the United States

0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:59.640
<v Speaker 1>of America because I know that there is no country

0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:04.240
<v Speaker 1>in the world where my story would be possible. I

0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:08.760
<v Speaker 1>revere the founding fathers in spite of their flaws, because

0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:13.920
<v Speaker 1>they made it possible to actually fix the problems they

0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:17.520
<v Speaker 1>didn't have the courage or the will to, and so

0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:24.360
<v Speaker 1>I believe that we have to deal with that fundamental history,

0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:28.880
<v Speaker 1>the contradictions and complexity of this country. You sure a

0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:31.160
<v Speaker 1>number of corporate boards. What is your view on whether

0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:34.680
<v Speaker 1>CEOs have a responsibility to their shareholders or to the

0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:38.559
<v Speaker 1>public to give their views on important public policy issues. Well,

0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:42.480
<v Speaker 1>there is no doubt that being a public company CEO

0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:46.880
<v Speaker 1>today is one of the hardest jobs in America, along

0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:50.320
<v Speaker 1>with being president of a university. There's no harder job.

0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:54.800
<v Speaker 1>I do think that this move at the Business Roundtable

0:08:55.640 --> 0:09:01.720
<v Speaker 1>has started to advance away from shareholder UH capitalism to

0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:07.520
<v Speaker 1>a stakeholder capitalism is better, UH. It means that we

0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:14.160
<v Speaker 1>won't be slavishly singularly focused on the issue of shareholder

0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:18.880
<v Speaker 1>value and the price of stock as the metric for

0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:21.719
<v Speaker 1>success of a company doesn't mean that that that's that

0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:24.120
<v Speaker 1>has to be primarily and important, but you have to

0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:28.160
<v Speaker 1>take into consideration the needs and concerns of the other stakeholders,

0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:33.560
<v Speaker 1>which often does come down on occasion to social issues.

0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:36.280
<v Speaker 1>And I think it is hard to navigate that, and

0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:39.600
<v Speaker 1>each company has to make its own decisions. But my

0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:44.240
<v Speaker 1>view on it is as corporate boards become more diverse,

0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:47.719
<v Speaker 1>as the C suite becomes more diverse, it's going to

0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:51.559
<v Speaker 1>be harder to ignore these kinds of social issues. Do

0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.360
<v Speaker 1>you have any interest in ever running for office or anything? No,

0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:59.720
<v Speaker 1>I'm not qualified, uh, temperamentally or otherwise to be an

0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:05.600
<v Speaker 1>all active office. I admire our elected officials, and I

0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:10.560
<v Speaker 1>admire the idea of public service, and I regret that

0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:15.040
<v Speaker 1>in our country this idea of service uh seems to

0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:18.480
<v Speaker 1>have been demigraded. We have lost that in our country,

0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:21.640
<v Speaker 1>and I think this is deeply regrettable. Let's talk about

0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:23.920
<v Speaker 1>how you became the head of the Ford Foundation, and

0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:26.880
<v Speaker 1>your background show you're not from New York City? Is

0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:29.280
<v Speaker 1>that right? I am definitely not from New York City.

0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:34.200
<v Speaker 1>I was born um in a charity hospital in Crowley, Louisiana,

0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:37.840
<v Speaker 1>a little town, um not far I guess, from Lafayette

0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.920
<v Speaker 1>and Baton Rouge. And you're raised by a single mother, Yeah,

0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:44.280
<v Speaker 1>I was. And you grew up in Texas more than Louisiana's.

0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:48.000
<v Speaker 1>Moved to Ames, Texas when I was a little boy.

0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:50.439
<v Speaker 1>And you went to University of Texas. I did. Indeed,

0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:54.240
<v Speaker 1>I'm proud to say, David that I have never attended

0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:57.560
<v Speaker 1>a day of private education in my life. From head

0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:02.800
<v Speaker 1>start through law school, public education was the path. So

0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:04.400
<v Speaker 1>you went to the University of Texas. How did you

0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:07.199
<v Speaker 1>do there? I did, okay? Were you elected president of

0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.560
<v Speaker 1>the student governments? I was. I. I was the head

0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:13.880
<v Speaker 1>of a number of organizations. And I was very lucky

0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:18.680
<v Speaker 1>because I lived at a time in this country when

0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:24.160
<v Speaker 1>I knew, in spite of the challenges that I faced

0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:28.760
<v Speaker 1>as a boy, as a young man, that my country

0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:34.120
<v Speaker 1>was cheering me on. I never, for a moment felt

0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:38.840
<v Speaker 1>that my dreams and aspirations could not be achieved, and

0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:43.240
<v Speaker 1>I never felt that America didn't want anything for me

0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:48.400
<v Speaker 1>but success. And so yes, I had a great run

0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:51.120
<v Speaker 1>in college and low school that brought me to New York,

0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:56.360
<v Speaker 1>but the tail winds were with me. But you must

0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:59.920
<v Speaker 1>have suffered some discrimination in Texas or Louisiana as an

0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:04.080
<v Speaker 1>African American. Was it difficult or was it not? Of course,

0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:10.679
<v Speaker 1>there were many occasions, countless occasions when I faced discrimination,

0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:13.320
<v Speaker 1>I mean, or when I faced people saying things to

0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:17.640
<v Speaker 1>me that were heartless and harmful and difficult to hear.

0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:20.360
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I recall in high school when I want

0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:24.920
<v Speaker 1>an election for student counsel and the person I or

0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:28.079
<v Speaker 1>a friend of the person who uh lost to me

0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:32.520
<v Speaker 1>told me that no matter how successful I might be

0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:36.480
<v Speaker 1>in the future going off to the University of Texas, etcetera, Uh,

0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:42.000
<v Speaker 1>that the most successful black man in America would always

0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:47.080
<v Speaker 1>be below the least successful white man in America. So

0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:51.680
<v Speaker 1>I was told this when I was sixteen. Imagine hearing that.

0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:57.960
<v Speaker 1>But also who taught a sixteen year old uh that idea? Uh?

0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:00.800
<v Speaker 1>And And so I think about that when you ask

0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:03.240
<v Speaker 1>questions like this, you know, did you face Sure I did.

0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:07.040
<v Speaker 1>But what I actually worry about is that that kind

0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:12.199
<v Speaker 1>of thinking is instantiated in some segments of our society,

0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:15.280
<v Speaker 1>which is so harmful to our democracy. So you graduate

0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:18.040
<v Speaker 1>from the University of Texas law school, and rather than

0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:20.560
<v Speaker 1>stay in Texas, you headed to New York and you

0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:23.160
<v Speaker 1>went to a very very famous law firm Clearly Godli.

0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:25.319
<v Speaker 1>And you do you want to be a great corporate

0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:27.880
<v Speaker 1>law partner? What did you want to be? No, I

0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:31.560
<v Speaker 1>didn't want to be what I wanted not to be

0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:36.560
<v Speaker 1>ever again, it was poor. I did not want to

0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:40.400
<v Speaker 1>be poor. And when you grow up on the precipice

0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:46.680
<v Speaker 1>of an economic um collapse of your own family, uh,

0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:50.840
<v Speaker 1>it leaves you. Uh. It leaves an indelible mark. When

0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:53.240
<v Speaker 1>you are a kid and you're waiting for your mother

0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:57.840
<v Speaker 1>to pick you up at school after a debate tournament

0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:01.080
<v Speaker 1>and she never turns up, and you walk home and

0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:04.640
<v Speaker 1>you find out it's because our car was repossessed. Um.

0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:10.280
<v Speaker 1>That leaves a profound mark on your psyche. And so,

0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:13.959
<v Speaker 1>to be completely candid, I didn't want to be poor.

0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:19.000
<v Speaker 1>And I didn't choose a career path to Wall Street

0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:22.320
<v Speaker 1>because I loved the law, or when I left to

0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:29.080
<v Speaker 1>go to UBS because I loved asset backed collateral. I

0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:33.680
<v Speaker 1>liked the idea of some semblance of financial security for

0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:36.280
<v Speaker 1>me and my family. Right, So you made some money

0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:38.680
<v Speaker 1>at Clearly Guili and then you went to UBS. You're

0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:41.640
<v Speaker 1>in the financial services world and it's now called But

0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:45.240
<v Speaker 1>then you left to go work in a nonprofit in Harlem.

0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:47.440
<v Speaker 1>Why did you do that? Because for me, it was

0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:51.960
<v Speaker 1>never about piling up money. Um. For me, it was

0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:55.160
<v Speaker 1>ultimately about service, right. So you did that for a

0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.240
<v Speaker 1>number of years, and then you joined the Rockefeller Foundation

0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:00.480
<v Speaker 1>and you rose up to be in charge of various

0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:03.480
<v Speaker 1>international programs. Then you were recruited to go to the

0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:06.120
<v Speaker 1>Ford Foundation. I went to Ford as a vice president.

0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:09.080
<v Speaker 1>Ford was a much larger foundation. It's about three times

0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:11.800
<v Speaker 1>the size of Rockefeller. So it was a lateral move,

0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:14.320
<v Speaker 1>but I had a bigger remit. Okay. So Ford was

0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:17.280
<v Speaker 1>looking for a new president and you were one of

0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:19.760
<v Speaker 1>the candidates, and as I understand that, you went into

0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:22.680
<v Speaker 1>the interview and said, I'm going to change this completely

0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:24.480
<v Speaker 1>if I get this job, I'm going to focus on

0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:28.920
<v Speaker 1>social inequality and make everything dealing with social inequality our focus.

0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:31.200
<v Speaker 1>Is that? Right? Yes? So what I said was the

0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:38.760
<v Speaker 1>Foundation was two disparately organized and that we had lost

0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:43.760
<v Speaker 1>our focus, and that we needed a single north star

0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:46.240
<v Speaker 1>for our work, which we did not have and had

0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:48.800
<v Speaker 1>had really never had. Right. So when you got the position.

0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:51.120
<v Speaker 1>All of a sudden, Ford announced, guess what, We're going

0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:54.200
<v Speaker 1>to focus only on inequality and and so forth. What

0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:59.400
<v Speaker 1>did your typical recipients of your aid say, Well, part

0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:01.480
<v Speaker 1>of it is just stepping back and asking why did

0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:05.600
<v Speaker 1>we focus on inequality? And the reason I believed inequality

0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:10.560
<v Speaker 1>was important was because of our mission. Um part of

0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:14.440
<v Speaker 1>our mission is established by him before. The second was

0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:20.480
<v Speaker 1>to strengthen democracy and democratic practice in the US and abroad.

0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:26.200
<v Speaker 1>I believe that among the greatest threats to our democracy

0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:32.920
<v Speaker 1>is growing hopelessness. And hopelessness occurs in society's where there

0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:36.120
<v Speaker 1>are high level is high level of inequality. And so

0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:41.560
<v Speaker 1>the correlation of inequality and hopelessness is what is a

0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:44.560
<v Speaker 1>threat to our mission. And so the goal was to

0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:47.560
<v Speaker 1>get people to understand, no matter what you're working on,

0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:52.480
<v Speaker 1>if it is having some impact on poor people because

0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:54.920
<v Speaker 1>of the growing inequality in the world. Okay, it's one

0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:57.440
<v Speaker 1>thing though, you get the job, you convinced the board

0:16:57.480 --> 0:16:58.880
<v Speaker 1>to do this, but then you have to do the

0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.720
<v Speaker 1>work of convincing your staff people to actually change what

0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:04.280
<v Speaker 1>they've been doing for so many years. And was that

0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:08.240
<v Speaker 1>hard to do? It was not without difficulty. It was

0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:13.399
<v Speaker 1>not without some long term employees leaving the foundation. It

0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:19.359
<v Speaker 1>was not without some long term grant organizations leaving the

0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:23.080
<v Speaker 1>leaving the foundation. Did you feel you needed security? Uh? Well, no,

0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:28.040
<v Speaker 1>it's it's I mean, David, the role of foundation leader,

0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:31.760
<v Speaker 1>like like me, is one of great privilege. Uh. And

0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:34.760
<v Speaker 1>I say that with all humility, because this is not

0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:38.440
<v Speaker 1>about me as a person. This is about the job

0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:45.040
<v Speaker 1>I hold. I am under no uh uh fantasy or

0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:49.200
<v Speaker 1>misunderstanding of why, as you say, I may be in demand.

0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:52.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm not in demand because Darren Walker is that interesting

0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.639
<v Speaker 1>of a person. I'm in demand because I'm President of

0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:59.840
<v Speaker 1>the Ford Foundation. And when I am no longer President

0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:02.359
<v Speaker 1>of the Ford Foundation, I can assure you I'll have

0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:05.199
<v Speaker 1>lots more time to have dinner with you. In the

0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:08.000
<v Speaker 1>United States and the early part of the twentieth century,

0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:09.800
<v Speaker 1>and then in the mid part of the twentieth century,

0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:14.000
<v Speaker 1>wealthy people like John D. Rockefeller or Henry Ford set

0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:17.480
<v Speaker 1>up foundations where they would take their stock or other

0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:19.439
<v Speaker 1>assets and put it in the foundation. And then the

0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:22.480
<v Speaker 1>foundation would be to some extent controlled for a while

0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.720
<v Speaker 1>by families, but then eventually the families would not be controlled.

0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:29.520
<v Speaker 1>In the Ford Foundation case, Henry Ford famously got off

0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:32.200
<v Speaker 1>the Foundation board many decades ago because he wasn't happy.

0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:34.719
<v Speaker 1>It is said, with the Ford Foundation. Now you've been

0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:36.720
<v Speaker 1>re engage with the Ford family. Was that hard to

0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:39.520
<v Speaker 1>do him? Before the second left the board in nineteen

0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:43.480
<v Speaker 1>seventy six, And it is true that he was happy

0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:45.600
<v Speaker 1>about a lot of the work of the Fourth Foundation,

0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.680
<v Speaker 1>but he was unhappy. He was unhappy because the work

0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:52.119
<v Speaker 1>that we did in the American South UH to advance

0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:58.680
<v Speaker 1>integration UH and to support efforts to UH to deem

0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:05.200
<v Speaker 1>illegal discriminatory practices UM was a problem because Southern dealers

0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:10.760
<v Speaker 1>felt the displeasure of Southern consumers. So Henry Ford the

0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:14.640
<v Speaker 1>second was hearing from Ford Motor Company dealers that their

0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.800
<v Speaker 1>consumers didn't want to buy our cars, so he decided

0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:21.280
<v Speaker 1>to leave UM. We have been independent of the Ford

0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:24.840
<v Speaker 1>family and Ford Motor Company for over six decades. I

0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:27.800
<v Speaker 1>believed that it was critically important for us to re

0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:31.240
<v Speaker 1>engage the Ford family. This is where the money came from.

0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:33.239
<v Speaker 1>It was important to re engage in the city of

0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:36.800
<v Speaker 1>Detroit UH, and this is why we played a pivotal

0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:40.000
<v Speaker 1>role in that bankruptcy. Re Engaging with the Ford family

0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:45.000
<v Speaker 1>was easy Bill Ford and his mother, Martha Firestone Ford

0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:48.360
<v Speaker 1>are among the most amazing people I know, and they

0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:51.520
<v Speaker 1>were happy to re engage, and so we two years

0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:56.679
<v Speaker 1>ago elected Henry Ford the third Um, the grandson of Henry,

0:19:56.680 --> 0:20:00.000
<v Speaker 1>for the second to our board. Now, as I mentioned earlier,

0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:02.280
<v Speaker 1>what happened is a lot of prominent people, when they

0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:05.320
<v Speaker 1>get to be sixties, seventy, maybe eighty, they would set

0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:07.800
<v Speaker 1>up these foundations. But now a lot of people have

0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:11.520
<v Speaker 1>gotten very wealthy in their thirties, forties and fifties, and

0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:13.960
<v Speaker 1>they don't set up these traditional foundations. They just kind

0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:16.680
<v Speaker 1>of give away the money in different ways. That's maybe

0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:20.080
<v Speaker 1>not having a board like yours operate. Is that the

0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:23.200
<v Speaker 1>new model, which is to say something like, uh, what's

0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:27.920
<v Speaker 1>being done with uh? Um, let's say the Jeff Bezos fortune.

0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:30.880
<v Speaker 1>He's giving away money. His former wife is giving away

0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:33.200
<v Speaker 1>money in different ways. Is that a new model? Or

0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:36.200
<v Speaker 1>you think the traditional model of the Ford Foundation Rockefeller

0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:40.520
<v Speaker 1>Foundation will stay as the model for large philanthropic foundations.

0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:46.160
<v Speaker 1>I think the model of philanthropy over many decades will

0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:49.200
<v Speaker 1>continue to exist. But the exciting thing about this moment

0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:52.560
<v Speaker 1>is that there are new models. Um, and you mentioned

0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:55.439
<v Speaker 1>to really terrific one. What Jeff Bezos is doing, as

0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:59.000
<v Speaker 1>well as McKinzie Scott, what Louis and Powell jobs, or

0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:02.200
<v Speaker 1>the tan Zuckerbergs are doing. All of these are part

0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:06.480
<v Speaker 1>of the landscape of philanthropic pluralism, which we should celebrate.

0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:10.000
<v Speaker 1>No country in the world has the diversity of ways

0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:13.160
<v Speaker 1>of giving as we do in the United States. So

0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:17.320
<v Speaker 1>I celebrate every time a new foundation is created in

0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:20.280
<v Speaker 1>whatever form. I suppose you're not a billionaire, but you're

0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:22.320
<v Speaker 1>just an average person. Why should you want to give

0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:24.120
<v Speaker 1>away your money. You worked hard to get this money.

0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:27.000
<v Speaker 1>Why not just buy things that for you and your family. Well,

0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:30.520
<v Speaker 1>first of all, some of the best philanthropists in this

0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:37.359
<v Speaker 1>country are small donors. They understand what it is like

0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:41.600
<v Speaker 1>to work really hard, and for many of them, um,

0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:44.160
<v Speaker 1>they don't have a lot of disposable income, and yet

0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:46.919
<v Speaker 1>they give. They give to their church, they give to

0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:50.200
<v Speaker 1>their food pantry, they give to their homeless shelter um.

0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:54.600
<v Speaker 1>And that is because in this country there is a

0:21:55.400 --> 0:22:01.560
<v Speaker 1>civic imperative of the individual to do what he or

0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:04.920
<v Speaker 1>she can to make a difference and improving our communities.

0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:10.240
<v Speaker 1>So I I celebrate those small, um impactful donors. But

0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:16.720
<v Speaker 1>I also, though, worry that for many wealthy people, UH,

0:22:16.760 --> 0:22:24.080
<v Speaker 1>the idea of giving UM often is not driven by UM,

0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:27.880
<v Speaker 1>a sense of UH just making a difference. But it's

0:22:27.920 --> 0:22:31.960
<v Speaker 1>making a difference with strings attached. It's making a difference,

0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:35.080
<v Speaker 1>but doing it the way I wanted done, rather than

0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:38.280
<v Speaker 1>what UM the experts might say. And so it's that

0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:41.280
<v Speaker 1>calibration that concerns me. You and I serve on the

0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:45.080
<v Speaker 1>National Gallery of Art board and every art institution I know,

0:22:45.160 --> 0:22:46.720
<v Speaker 1>I want you to serve on their board, and you're

0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:48.720
<v Speaker 1>very involved in the art world. What is it about

0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:54.399
<v Speaker 1>art that attracts you? Well? Art is essential in a democracy, David,

0:22:54.640 --> 0:22:58.960
<v Speaker 1>Art is so important. We know what art does to

0:22:59.160 --> 0:23:04.080
<v Speaker 1>young people. We know that exposure to art brings about

0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:11.280
<v Speaker 1>higher levels of empathy UM. It helps people understand how

0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:17.000
<v Speaker 1>other cultures other people live UM, and it just brings

0:23:17.080 --> 0:23:20.320
<v Speaker 1>out the kind of humanity and all of us. There

0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:27.760
<v Speaker 1>are times when I have observed leaders use UH language

0:23:27.800 --> 0:23:33.199
<v Speaker 1>that is inhumane while talking about other human beings, while

0:23:33.280 --> 0:23:37.080
<v Speaker 1>while talking about the world UM, And I think to myself,

0:23:37.080 --> 0:23:41.160
<v Speaker 1>this person has clearly never engaged in beautiful poetry. They've

0:23:41.200 --> 0:23:47.320
<v Speaker 1>never listened to the words of a great play, right,

0:23:47.440 --> 0:23:51.800
<v Speaker 1>They've never um sat and reflected on a beautiful painting

0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:59.040
<v Speaker 1>or picture because if they had been really educated, had

0:23:59.080 --> 0:24:03.560
<v Speaker 1>they really been exposed to the arts, um, they wouldn't

0:24:04.119 --> 0:24:07.320
<v Speaker 1>find it possible to use this kind of language when

0:24:07.359 --> 0:24:11.120
<v Speaker 1>talking about other human beings. Thanks for listening to hear

0:24:11.160 --> 0:24:13.679
<v Speaker 1>more of my interviews. You can subscribe and download my

0:24:13.800 --> 0:24:17.119
<v Speaker 1>podcast on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen