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Speaker 1: One of the most influential figures in the world of

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Speaker 1: philanthropy is Darren Walker. He currently heads the Ford Foundation

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Speaker 1: and has revolutionized it's giving. He also is an influential

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Speaker 1: figure in the world of culture and arts. Had a

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Speaker 1: chance to sit down with him recently to talk about

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Speaker 1: how he rose from very modest circumstances in Texas to

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Speaker 1: become such a leading figure in the worlds of philanthropy,

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Speaker 1: culture and art. So, Darren, as the head of the

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Speaker 1: Ford Foundation, you're one of the most important people in

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Speaker 1: the world of philanthropy. But tell us how has the

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Speaker 1: ward of philanthropy changed because of COVID. Well, I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure I agree that I'm the most important. I think

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Speaker 1: I am part of a constellation of people who are

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Speaker 1: lucky enough to lead foundations like Ford, Rockefell or McArthur,

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Speaker 1: any of the great legacies. But COVID has absolutely impacted

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Speaker 1: how we do our work, both internationally and domestically. Let's

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Speaker 1: start with internationally. The reality of this moment is that

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Speaker 1: we are seeing tremendous inequality and the ways in which

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Speaker 1: vaccines are being distributed, the ways in which they're being manufactured,

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Speaker 1: UH and the issues around cost, intellectual property which are

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Speaker 1: profound and are having a tremendous negative impact, especially for

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Speaker 1: people in Africa and much of the global South. In

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Speaker 1: the United States, we know that COVID has meant that

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Speaker 1: communities that are historically the most vulnerable are doubly impacted

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Speaker 1: because of COVID UM and so what that is meant

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Speaker 1: for philanthropy is that we've had to double down in

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Speaker 1: some ways UM and also recognize that in the United States, UH,

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Speaker 1: the COVID moment has coincided with the George Floyd racial

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Speaker 1: reckoning moment, and that has brought into stark relief the

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Speaker 1: challenges for people of color, especially in low income communities. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about the Ford Foundation. Is something you've done

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Speaker 1: is innovative to deal with COVID. It So, when COVID came,

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Speaker 1: you convinced the Ford Foundation trustees and some others will

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Speaker 1: talk about to borrow money. You went out and borrowed

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Speaker 1: a billion dollars. Why did you need to do that?

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Speaker 1: What we needed to do that because, as you recall,

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Speaker 1: at the beginning of COVID, back in March and April

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Speaker 1: of the markets were very choppy, and what I was

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Speaker 1: concerned about was on the one hand, on the need side,

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Speaker 1: we were hearing from many arts organizations, organizations working on

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Speaker 1: food security and direct services that they were in a

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Speaker 1: huge distress. Remember, arts organizations had closed their doors, there

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Speaker 1: was no revenue UH, the nonprofit fundraisers had been canceled.

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Speaker 1: UH donors were beginning to get a little nervous about pledges.

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Speaker 1: So we would see the need to increase our spending

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Speaker 1: while at the same time, our our denominator, our endowment,

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Speaker 1: was going down in value. And I'd seen that happen

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Speaker 1: in UH in the last UH down market cycle, where

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Speaker 1: the need went up and our endowment went down. So

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Speaker 1: in order to really address the need side while maintaining

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Speaker 1: I think good fiscal responsibility of managing the endowment UM.

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Speaker 1: And of course, because of the luck of of having JEROMEE.

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Speaker 1: Powell in charge of the FED and basically announcing in

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Speaker 1: the middle of March that money was free, I mean

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Speaker 1: basically UM, and what happened with the yolkerve made it

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Speaker 1: really quite possible for us to think about debt as

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Speaker 1: opposed to taking money out of the endowment, and so

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Speaker 1: it was really just a matter of arbitrage, and so

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Speaker 1: it was hard to convince your trustees to do that.

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Speaker 1: Initially they thought it was out of the box, of course,

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Speaker 1: because because no foundation had done that before. But once

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Speaker 1: especially the Investment Committee UH started to think about the options,

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Speaker 1: it became clear that it was the best option. Were

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Speaker 1: you able to get other large foundations in the shame

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Speaker 1: and in terms of borrowing money, there were a number

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Speaker 1: of foundations who have done this, so McArthur Kellogg, Doroth

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Speaker 1: Duke um and we now have probably eight or ten

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Speaker 1: who have issued bonds. But the bigger message was that

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Speaker 1: we needed to do more that simply going by the

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Speaker 1: I r S minimum of five percent payout in the

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Speaker 1: time of COVID at a time ultimately when we had

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Speaker 1: more money than ever it simply was not more morally

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Speaker 1: defensible has been five percent. So let's talk about George Floyd.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned him earlier. You've lived through the Civil rights

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Speaker 1: revolution in the sixties, and we had the post civil

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Speaker 1: rights efforts in the seventies and eighties. But it seems

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Speaker 1: as if not until George Floyd was murdered did some

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Speaker 1: people in the corporate world and the government takes seriously

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Speaker 1: the discrimination and other challenges that African Americans faced. Is

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Speaker 1: there that your perception that George Floyd had an incredible impact,

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Speaker 1: more than you might have thought one murder might have had. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think what was different, David, was that first we

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Speaker 1: were all at home as a country, and secondly, this

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Speaker 1: was fully videotaped from the moment he was put on

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Speaker 1: the ground until his last breath, and that it was photographed. Uh,

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Speaker 1: that it was videotaped, and that the perpetrator was fully

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Speaker 1: aware that he was killing someone and clearly assumed that

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Speaker 1: he could do that with impunity. I think that is

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Speaker 1: what we Americans, the average American found so appalling and

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Speaker 1: so anathetical to our values as a people, and so

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Speaker 1: it had a huge impact far beyond the issue of

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Speaker 1: policing and civil rights to the boardroom. You think it

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Speaker 1: will be enduring, in other words, the boardroom. Now there's

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Speaker 1: a big effort to have more African Americans and more

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Speaker 1: women on boards. But do you think that well last

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Speaker 1: or is it just for a short period of time

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Speaker 1: after the George Floyd murder. Well, there's no doubt that

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Speaker 1: some of the rhetoric from some CEOs was performative. But

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Speaker 1: I believe that we are seeing a real paradigm shift

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Speaker 1: where we understand that diversity in the boardroom is more

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Speaker 1: than one. You know, I'm I'm been a member of

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Speaker 1: some public company boards, and there was a time when

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Speaker 1: there would be one black and one Hispanic and that

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Speaker 1: and maybe one or two white women, and you had diversity.

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Speaker 1: I think now we understand that that's really tokenism. Diversity

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Speaker 1: is fully embracing the idea of the intersection of talent

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Speaker 1: and representation and that you can get both. Do you

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Speaker 1: think discrimination against African Americans just greater than discrimination against

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Speaker 1: people who are gay. I think that race is a

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Speaker 1: very challenging UM feature of American life, and when you

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Speaker 1: look at the progress of LGBT, when you think about

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Speaker 1: something marriage equality UH, which polled in the low double

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Speaker 1: digits UH as recently as fifteen years ago, and now

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Speaker 1: a majority of American support UM. I think part of

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Speaker 1: the reason for the progress was because most Americans, most

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Speaker 1: white Americans could relate. They could relate to Ellen Degenerous

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Speaker 1: coming out on ABC on National TV because she was

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Speaker 1: the girl next door that they've fallen in love with

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Speaker 1: for five seasons. They could relate to some of the

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Speaker 1: people who were on the front lines leading the efforts

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Speaker 1: UH in the marches Um. They knew that these young

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Speaker 1: people were their children and grandchildren. It is harder on

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Speaker 1: the issue of race, and it's because in this country, UH,

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Speaker 1: we have a difficult history. I love the United States

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Speaker 1: of America because I know that there is no country

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Speaker 1: in the world where my story would be possible. I

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Speaker 1: revere the founding fathers in spite of their flaws, because

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Speaker 1: they made it possible to actually fix the problems they

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Speaker 1: didn't have the courage or the will to, and so

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Speaker 1: I believe that we have to deal with that fundamental history,

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Speaker 1: the contradictions and complexity of this country. You sure a

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Speaker 1: number of corporate boards. What is your view on whether

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Speaker 1: CEOs have a responsibility to their shareholders or to the

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Speaker 1: public to give their views on important public policy issues. Well,

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Speaker 1: there is no doubt that being a public company CEO

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Speaker 1: today is one of the hardest jobs in America, along

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Speaker 1: with being president of a university. There's no harder job.

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Speaker 1: I do think that this move at the Business Roundtable

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Speaker 1: has started to advance away from shareholder UH capitalism to

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Speaker 1: a stakeholder capitalism is better, UH. It means that we

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Speaker 1: won't be slavishly singularly focused on the issue of shareholder

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Speaker 1: value and the price of stock as the metric for

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Speaker 1: success of a company doesn't mean that that that's that

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Speaker 1: has to be primarily and important, but you have to

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Speaker 1: take into consideration the needs and concerns of the other stakeholders,

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Speaker 1: which often does come down on occasion to social issues.

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Speaker 1: And I think it is hard to navigate that, and

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Speaker 1: each company has to make its own decisions. But my

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Speaker 1: view on it is as corporate boards become more diverse,

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Speaker 1: as the C suite becomes more diverse, it's going to

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Speaker 1: be harder to ignore these kinds of social issues. Do

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Speaker 1: you have any interest in ever running for office or anything? No,

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Speaker 1: I'm not qualified, uh, temperamentally or otherwise to be an

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Speaker 1: all active office. I admire our elected officials, and I

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Speaker 1: admire the idea of public service, and I regret that

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Speaker 1: in our country this idea of service uh seems to

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Speaker 1: have been demigraded. We have lost that in our country,

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Speaker 1: and I think this is deeply regrettable. Let's talk about

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Speaker 1: how you became the head of the Ford Foundation, and

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Speaker 1: your background show you're not from New York City? Is

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Speaker 1: that right? I am definitely not from New York City.

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Speaker 1: I was born um in a charity hospital in Crowley, Louisiana,

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Speaker 1: a little town, um not far I guess, from Lafayette

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Speaker 1: and Baton Rouge. And you're raised by a single mother, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was. And you grew up in Texas more than Louisiana's.

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Speaker 1: Moved to Ames, Texas when I was a little boy.

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Speaker 1: And you went to University of Texas. I did. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: I'm proud to say, David that I have never attended

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Speaker 1: a day of private education in my life. From head

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Speaker 1: start through law school, public education was the path. So

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Speaker 1: you went to the University of Texas. How did you

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Speaker 1: do there? I did, okay? Were you elected president of

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Speaker 1: the student governments? I was. I. I was the head

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Speaker 1: of a number of organizations. And I was very lucky

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Speaker 1: because I lived at a time in this country when

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Speaker 1: I knew, in spite of the challenges that I faced

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Speaker 1: as a boy, as a young man, that my country

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Speaker 1: was cheering me on. I never, for a moment felt

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Speaker 1: that my dreams and aspirations could not be achieved, and

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Speaker 1: I never felt that America didn't want anything for me

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Speaker 1: but success. And so yes, I had a great run

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Speaker 1: in college and low school that brought me to New York,

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Speaker 1: but the tail winds were with me. But you must

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Speaker 1: have suffered some discrimination in Texas or Louisiana as an

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Speaker 1: African American. Was it difficult or was it not? Of course,

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Speaker 1: there were many occasions, countless occasions when I faced discrimination,

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Speaker 1: I mean, or when I faced people saying things to

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Speaker 1: me that were heartless and harmful and difficult to hear.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I recall in high school when I want

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Speaker 1: an election for student counsel and the person I or

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Speaker 1: a friend of the person who uh lost to me

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Speaker 1: told me that no matter how successful I might be

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Speaker 1: in the future going off to the University of Texas, etcetera, Uh,

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Speaker 1: that the most successful black man in America would always

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Speaker 1: be below the least successful white man in America. So

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Speaker 1: I was told this when I was sixteen. Imagine hearing that.

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Speaker 1: But also who taught a sixteen year old uh that idea? Uh?

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Speaker 1: And And so I think about that when you ask

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Speaker 1: questions like this, you know, did you face Sure I did.

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Speaker 1: But what I actually worry about is that that kind

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Speaker 1: of thinking is instantiated in some segments of our society,

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Speaker 1: which is so harmful to our democracy. So you graduate

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Speaker 1: from the University of Texas law school, and rather than

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Speaker 1: stay in Texas, you headed to New York and you

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Speaker 1: went to a very very famous law firm Clearly Godli.

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Speaker 1: And you do you want to be a great corporate

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Speaker 1: law partner? What did you want to be? No, I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to be what I wanted not to be

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Speaker 1: ever again, it was poor. I did not want to

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Speaker 1: be poor. And when you grow up on the precipice

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Speaker 1: of an economic um collapse of your own family, uh,

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Speaker 1: it leaves you. Uh. It leaves an indelible mark. When

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Speaker 1: you are a kid and you're waiting for your mother

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Speaker 1: to pick you up at school after a debate tournament

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Speaker 1: and she never turns up, and you walk home and

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Speaker 1: you find out it's because our car was repossessed. Um.

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Speaker 1: That leaves a profound mark on your psyche. And so,

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Speaker 1: to be completely candid, I didn't want to be poor.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't choose a career path to Wall Street

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Speaker 1: because I loved the law, or when I left to

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Speaker 1: go to UBS because I loved asset backed collateral. I

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Speaker 1: liked the idea of some semblance of financial security for

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Speaker 1: me and my family. Right, So you made some money

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Speaker 1: at Clearly Guili and then you went to UBS. You're

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Speaker 1: in the financial services world and it's now called But

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Speaker 1: then you left to go work in a nonprofit in Harlem.

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Speaker 1: Why did you do that? Because for me, it was

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Speaker 1: never about piling up money. Um. For me, it was

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Speaker 1: ultimately about service, right. So you did that for a

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Speaker 1: number of years, and then you joined the Rockefeller Foundation

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Speaker 1: and you rose up to be in charge of various

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Speaker 1: international programs. Then you were recruited to go to the

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Speaker 1: Ford Foundation. I went to Ford as a vice president.

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Speaker 1: Ford was a much larger foundation. It's about three times

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Speaker 1: the size of Rockefeller. So it was a lateral move,

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Speaker 1: but I had a bigger remit. Okay. So Ford was

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Speaker 1: looking for a new president and you were one of

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Speaker 1: the candidates, and as I understand that, you went into

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Speaker 1: the interview and said, I'm going to change this completely

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Speaker 1: if I get this job, I'm going to focus on

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Speaker 1: social inequality and make everything dealing with social inequality our focus.

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Speaker 1: Is that? Right? Yes? So what I said was the

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Speaker 1: Foundation was two disparately organized and that we had lost

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Speaker 1: our focus, and that we needed a single north star

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Speaker 1: for our work, which we did not have and had

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Speaker 1: had really never had. Right. So when you got the position.

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Speaker 1: All of a sudden, Ford announced, guess what, We're going

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Speaker 1: to focus only on inequality and and so forth. What

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Speaker 1: did your typical recipients of your aid say, Well, part

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Speaker 1: of it is just stepping back and asking why did

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Speaker 1: we focus on inequality? And the reason I believed inequality

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Speaker 1: was important was because of our mission. Um part of

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Speaker 1: our mission is established by him before. The second was

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Speaker 1: to strengthen democracy and democratic practice in the US and abroad.

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Speaker 1: I believe that among the greatest threats to our democracy

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Speaker 1: is growing hopelessness. And hopelessness occurs in society's where there

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Speaker 1: are high level is high level of inequality. And so

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Speaker 1: the correlation of inequality and hopelessness is what is a

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Speaker 1: threat to our mission. And so the goal was to

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Speaker 1: get people to understand, no matter what you're working on,

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Speaker 1: if it is having some impact on poor people because

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Speaker 1: of the growing inequality in the world. Okay, it's one

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Speaker 1: thing though, you get the job, you convinced the board

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Speaker 1: to do this, but then you have to do the

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Speaker 1: work of convincing your staff people to actually change what

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Speaker 1: they've been doing for so many years. And was that

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Speaker 1: hard to do? It was not without difficulty. It was

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Speaker 1: not without some long term employees leaving the foundation. It

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Speaker 1: was not without some long term grant organizations leaving the

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Speaker 1: leaving the foundation. Did you feel you needed security? Uh? Well, no,

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Speaker 1: it's it's I mean, David, the role of foundation leader,

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Speaker 1: like like me, is one of great privilege. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: I say that with all humility, because this is not

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Speaker 1: about me as a person. This is about the job

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Speaker 1: I hold. I am under no uh uh fantasy or

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Speaker 1: misunderstanding of why, as you say, I may be in demand.

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Speaker 1: I'm not in demand because Darren Walker is that interesting

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Speaker 1: of a person. I'm in demand because I'm President of

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Speaker 1: the Ford Foundation. And when I am no longer President

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Speaker 1: of the Ford Foundation, I can assure you I'll have

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Speaker 1: lots more time to have dinner with you. In the

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Speaker 1: United States and the early part of the twentieth century,

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Speaker 1: and then in the mid part of the twentieth century,

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Speaker 1: wealthy people like John D. Rockefeller or Henry Ford set

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Speaker 1: up foundations where they would take their stock or other

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Speaker 1: assets and put it in the foundation. And then the

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Speaker 1: foundation would be to some extent controlled for a while

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Speaker 1: by families, but then eventually the families would not be controlled.

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Speaker 1: In the Ford Foundation case, Henry Ford famously got off

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Speaker 1: the Foundation board many decades ago because he wasn't happy.

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Speaker 1: It is said, with the Ford Foundation. Now you've been

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Speaker 1: re engage with the Ford family. Was that hard to

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Speaker 1: do him? Before the second left the board in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy six, And it is true that he was happy

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Speaker 1: about a lot of the work of the Fourth Foundation,

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Speaker 1: but he was unhappy. He was unhappy because the work

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Speaker 1: that we did in the American South UH to advance

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Speaker 1: integration UH and to support efforts to UH to deem

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Speaker 1: illegal discriminatory practices UM was a problem because Southern dealers

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Speaker 1: felt the displeasure of Southern consumers. So Henry Ford the

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Speaker 1: second was hearing from Ford Motor Company dealers that their

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Speaker 1: consumers didn't want to buy our cars, so he decided

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Speaker 1: to leave UM. We have been independent of the Ford

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Speaker 1: family and Ford Motor Company for over six decades. I

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Speaker 1: believed that it was critically important for us to re

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Speaker 1: engage the Ford family. This is where the money came from.

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Speaker 1: It was important to re engage in the city of

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Speaker 1: Detroit UH, and this is why we played a pivotal

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Speaker 1: role in that bankruptcy. Re Engaging with the Ford family

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Speaker 1: was easy Bill Ford and his mother, Martha Firestone Ford

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Speaker 1: are among the most amazing people I know, and they

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Speaker 1: were happy to re engage, and so we two years

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Speaker 1: ago elected Henry Ford the third Um, the grandson of Henry,

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Speaker 1: for the second to our board. Now, as I mentioned earlier,

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Speaker 1: what happened is a lot of prominent people, when they

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Speaker 1: get to be sixties, seventy, maybe eighty, they would set

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Speaker 1: up these foundations. But now a lot of people have

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Speaker 1: gotten very wealthy in their thirties, forties and fifties, and

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Speaker 1: they don't set up these traditional foundations. They just kind

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Speaker 1: of give away the money in different ways. That's maybe

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Speaker 1: not having a board like yours operate. Is that the

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Speaker 1: new model, which is to say something like, uh, what's

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Speaker 1: being done with uh? Um, let's say the Jeff Bezos fortune.

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Speaker 1: He's giving away money. His former wife is giving away

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Speaker 1: money in different ways. Is that a new model? Or

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Speaker 1: you think the traditional model of the Ford Foundation Rockefeller

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Speaker 1: Foundation will stay as the model for large philanthropic foundations.

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Speaker 1: I think the model of philanthropy over many decades will

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Speaker 1: continue to exist. But the exciting thing about this moment

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Speaker 1: is that there are new models. Um, and you mentioned

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Speaker 1: to really terrific one. What Jeff Bezos is doing, as

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Speaker 1: well as McKinzie Scott, what Louis and Powell jobs, or

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Speaker 1: the tan Zuckerbergs are doing. All of these are part

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Speaker 1: of the landscape of philanthropic pluralism, which we should celebrate.

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Speaker 1: No country in the world has the diversity of ways

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Speaker 1: of giving as we do in the United States. So

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Speaker 1: I celebrate every time a new foundation is created in

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Speaker 1: whatever form. I suppose you're not a billionaire, but you're

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Speaker 1: just an average person. Why should you want to give

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Speaker 1: away your money. You worked hard to get this money.

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Speaker 1: Why not just buy things that for you and your family. Well,

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Speaker 1: first of all, some of the best philanthropists in this

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Speaker 1: country are small donors. They understand what it is like

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Speaker 1: to work really hard, and for many of them, um,

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Speaker 1: they don't have a lot of disposable income, and yet

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Speaker 1: they give. They give to their church, they give to

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Speaker 1: their food pantry, they give to their homeless shelter um.

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Speaker 1: And that is because in this country there is a

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Speaker 1: civic imperative of the individual to do what he or

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Speaker 1: she can to make a difference and improving our communities.

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Speaker 1: So I I celebrate those small, um impactful donors. But

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Speaker 1: I also, though, worry that for many wealthy people, UH,

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Speaker 1: the idea of giving UM often is not driven by UM,

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Speaker 1: a sense of UH just making a difference. But it's

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Speaker 1: making a difference with strings attached. It's making a difference,

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Speaker 1: but doing it the way I wanted done, rather than

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Speaker 1: what UM the experts might say. And so it's that

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Speaker 1: calibration that concerns me. You and I serve on the

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Speaker 1: National Gallery of Art board and every art institution I know,

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Speaker 1: I want you to serve on their board, and you're

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Speaker 1: very involved in the art world. What is it about

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Speaker 1: art that attracts you? Well? Art is essential in a democracy, David,

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Speaker 1: Art is so important. We know what art does to

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Speaker 1: young people. We know that exposure to art brings about

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Speaker 1: higher levels of empathy UM. It helps people understand how

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Speaker 1: other cultures other people live UM, and it just brings

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Speaker 1: out the kind of humanity and all of us. There

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Speaker 1: are times when I have observed leaders use UH language

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Speaker 1: that is inhumane while talking about other human beings, while

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Speaker 1: while talking about the world UM, And I think to myself,

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Speaker 1: this person has clearly never engaged in beautiful poetry. They've

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Speaker 1: never listened to the words of a great play, right,

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Speaker 1: They've never um sat and reflected on a beautiful painting

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Speaker 1: or picture because if they had been really educated, had

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Speaker 1: they really been exposed to the arts, um, they wouldn't

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Speaker 1: find it possible to use this kind of language when

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Speaker 1: talking about other human beings. Thanks for listening to hear

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Speaker 1: more of my interviews. You can subscribe and download my

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Speaker 1: podcast on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen