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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election,

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Speaker 2: and we are so excited about what that means for

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Speaker 2: the future of this show.

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Speaker 1: This is the only place where you can find honest

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Speaker 1: perspectives from the left and the right that simply does

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Speaker 1: not exist anywhere else.

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Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please

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Speaker 2: go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and

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Speaker 1: We need your help to build the future of independent

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 2: Happy Friday, All, how's everybody doing this morning?

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Speaker 3: Great, We're on you.

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Speaker 4: Glad to see you guys.

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Speaker 2: Good to say you guys do A bunch of stuff

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Speaker 2: that was breaking right after our show yesterday, A bunch

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Speaker 2: of moves. Mike Waltz out at NSA and Ryan, I

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Speaker 2: think you have a scoop with regard to some of

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Speaker 2: his last acts in that position.

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Speaker 5: Correct, Yeah, thanks to the tech.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: People thought that he was caught using signal on the

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Speaker 6: day that he was fired for right, is poor signal use,

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Speaker 6: But it turns out he was using an.

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Speaker 4: Israeli tech firm's version of Signal.

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Speaker 5: Oh, that sounds even better because.

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Speaker 6: That tech firm, that tech firm kind of makes a

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Speaker 6: copy of everybody's messages so you could keep it so

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Speaker 6: it might comply with record keeping rules in the federal government.

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Speaker 6: But it also means that the Israeli tech firm would

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Speaker 6: plausibly who and which is made up of former Israeli

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Speaker 6: intel officials, would have access to these potentially would have

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Speaker 6: access to all of these messages set by our national

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Speaker 6: security team.

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Speaker 3: Right? Is this because people saw the Reuter's picture of

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Speaker 3: him in the cabinet meeting. Was he using the app?

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Speaker 3: Then that was the Israeli Tech Firms app?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, And if you if you look close enough, and

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Speaker 6: we have a story over at drop site that people

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Speaker 6: can read if you look close enough at it, it's

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Speaker 6: not the Signal app.

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Speaker 4: It's this Israelly Tech Firms app.

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Speaker 5: All right, So we'll get into that.

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Speaker 2: We got more details on the Ukraine minerals deal Emily

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Speaker 2: and I covered the outlines of it.

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Speaker 5: ESGM.

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Speaker 2: Curious to get Ryan's take on that and where we

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Speaker 2: are with regard to ending hopefully one day the Ukraine

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Speaker 2: Russia War. We had this also, we kind of previewed

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Speaker 2: yesterday Emily, a Trump appointed judge has now blocked his

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Speaker 2: invocation of the Alien Enemies Act, and we were just

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Speaker 2: saying yesterday that we expected that to come at some point,

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Speaker 2: and then lo and behold, basically after we finished the show,

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Speaker 2: you get exactly that ruling. We've got also a bunch

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Speaker 2: of stuff that's going to be in the premium section,

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Speaker 2: including a really interesting clip of Tucker and Matt Walshin,

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Speaker 2: Tucker kind of calling him out with regard to Israel,

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Speaker 2: sort of casually calling him out on that, and a

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Speaker 2: really horrific new development there drones attacking and aid flotilla

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Speaker 2: that was headed to Gaza. Also Trump weigh in on

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Speaker 2: virgins because that's something we all wanted, and Mark Zuckerberg

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Speaker 2: wanting all of us to have more robot friends. So

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Speaker 2: things are going good, guys, Things are going good.

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Speaker 3: And maybe questions as well if we have time for them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So we put on a post for premium subscribers.

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Speaker 2: We're going to take a few questions at the end

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Speaker 2: from the comments you guys submitted. So again, you know,

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Speaker 2: we're going to do a bunch of stuff for the

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Speaker 2: free show, and then we'll have some bonus content for

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Speaker 2: premium subscribers, including those questions. If you guys want to

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Speaker 2: become a premium subscriber, go to Breakingpoints dot com and

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Speaker 2: appreciate all of you guys for making the show possible.

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Speaker 2: You know, an expansion at this moment of economic uncertainty

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Speaker 2: is a bit of a risk, but you guys make

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Speaker 2: it so that we're able to do it. So shall

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Speaker 2: we go ahead and dive in here, guys? Sue all right,

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Speaker 2: So Mike Waltz out at nssay he is being given

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Speaker 2: the consolation prize of you an ambassador, which the administration

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Speaker 2: is trying to spin is like, oh, that's definitely not

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Speaker 2: a demotion. That's like totally the same level of prestige

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Speaker 2: and import as an essay director. But I'm going to

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Speaker 2: pull up this this element, but first, just guys weigh

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Speaker 2: in on that piece, which is kind of preposterous Nicky

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Speaker 2: Haley's old job.

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Speaker 3: In other words, Yeah, jd Vance has tried to say,

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Speaker 3: you can plausibly make it. I think you said you

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Speaker 3: can make a good faith argument that it's a promotion,

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Speaker 3: which is a really funny way of saying, well, if

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Speaker 3: you kind of stretch and squint. You can see how

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Speaker 3: maybe this would look kind of like a promotion. Of course,

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Speaker 3: it's not. The amount of power that you wield as

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Speaker 3: NSA is significantly more than the amount of power you

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Speaker 3: wield as a UN ambassador, where you're largely a figurehead,

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Speaker 3: an important figurehead. Nonetheless, something to be said for that.

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Speaker 3: But I think it was Trump's way of not completely

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Speaker 3: capitulating to the media firestorm over Walls while also you know,

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Speaker 3: getting him out of his his tight inner circle.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, go ahead, Ryan, Right, Yeah, the reporting was all

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Speaker 6: that Trump did not want to look like he was

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Speaker 6: the chaos agent of Trump won. He really regretted, you know,

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Speaker 6: all the people that he fired within you know, the

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Speaker 6: first several even weeks of his administration. And so he

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Speaker 6: was like, I'm not firing this guy under pressure because

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Speaker 6: I don't want to. I don't want to do that again.

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Speaker 6: So he waited and then sort of didn't fire him,

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Speaker 6: just moved him, but did fire him.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I want to say, yeah, well, no, I

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Speaker 3: mean there's something like from just a last time around,

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Speaker 3: you could get someone fired if you were inside the

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Speaker 3: administration with strategic leaks, and it created just from like

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Speaker 3: a management perspective, an impossible situation because people were constantly

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Speaker 3: they realized the power of their leaking. They could sideline people.

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Speaker 3: It was just like straight up hunger games and so.

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Speaker 4: Be done by Laura Lumer.

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Speaker 2: Yes, now you have they've consolidated the firing power.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so it's a much more efficient process.

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Speaker 2: Let me go ahead play this because we do have

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Speaker 2: video of like, this is this is really this is

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Speaker 2: really cool. We have video of him like getting the

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Speaker 2: news he's gonna board Air Force one and then someone

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Speaker 2: comes over to him and is like, yeah, you're you're

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Speaker 2: not going to be on this trip, and then he's

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Speaker 2: like escorted off the tarmac. Let me go ahead and

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Speaker 2: play this for you guys, so we can we can

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Speaker 2: see the moment that it all went down and well

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Speaker 2: traveled marine touch two point oh but a little too

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Speaker 2: early for that.

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Speaker 5: Here we go.

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Speaker 7: That's his figure. He does not get on Air Force one.

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Speaker 7: It's only about a ten minute flight. So it's extremely

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Speaker 7: odd to take the helicopter flight and then not actually

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Speaker 7: go on the trip.

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Speaker 3: I was told he was not supposed to.

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Speaker 7: Go on the trip, and so people raised questions about

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Speaker 7: what this moment meant. So we've been asking White House

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Speaker 7: officials about it, and essentially just got to a point

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Speaker 7: where he didn't have a lot of confidence, not of

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Speaker 7: the President, not of his senior staff. And he was told,

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Speaker 7: I was told earlier this week that his time as

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Speaker 7: the National Security Advisor had come to an end and

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Speaker 7: it was time for him to leave. And now we

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Speaker 7: are told that he will be departing and so will

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Speaker 7: his end life.

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Speaker 3: So he took so he took Marine one to drink

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Speaker 3: Base Andrews. So what they're saying and didn't get on

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Speaker 3: Air Force one. That's brutal. That's mean girls type stuff.

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Speaker 6: Also, it's so obnoxious that all of these guys take

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Speaker 6: helicopters to Andrews Like.

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Speaker 5: It's like five, we're right there.

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Speaker 4: Take take an uber, guys.

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Speaker 5: I mean, in fairness, the traffic in DC can be

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Speaker 5: really bad.

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Speaker 6: It's true, that's true. Yeah, but he can he can

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Speaker 6: work from his phone.

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Speaker 4: So what's it? What's it matter?

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Speaker 6: But yes, to like get turned around on that is

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Speaker 6: I mean, you sign up to work for Trump, you

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Speaker 6: know you are most likely it's like life, You're signing

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Speaker 6: up for a brutal end. It's just going to come

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Speaker 6: a lot faster and it's going to be even more brutal.

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Speaker 6: And you know what do you get he got How

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Speaker 6: many scaramouchies did he get?

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Speaker 4: Maybe eight? But now he has to be un ambassador.

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Speaker 4: So that'll be cool, that's not bad.

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Speaker 6: Somebody you can go to restaurants and he'll be fine.

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Speaker 2: Imagine being a least staphonic right now. Seriously, who okay,

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Speaker 2: just what people recall she was supposed to be you

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Speaker 2: an ambassador. She's in Congress, she's supposed to be you

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Speaker 2: an ambassador. But they picked uh, well, they pulled Matt Gates.

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Speaker 2: You know, they were going to make him a g

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Speaker 2: and then he ends up pulling himself out of contention.

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Speaker 5: But that's one House seat. Then you've got Mike.

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Speaker 2: Waltz is pulled, and then isn't there one more that

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Speaker 2: they pulled out of the House into the administration And

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Speaker 2: they basically with Stefani, I'm sorry, I know you're in

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Speaker 2: like a R plus twenty district, but we're not all

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Speaker 2: that confident that you're going to be able to we're

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Speaker 2: going to be able to put a Republican in that

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Speaker 2: seat after you, so you have to stay. So now

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Speaker 2: she not only has to deal with the like the

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Speaker 2: sting of she thought she was going to be you ambassador,

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Speaker 2: but she's not, but now so also the degradation of

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Speaker 2: like them using this as some sort of a consolation

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Speaker 2: prize for Mike Waltz was her colleague in the House

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Speaker 2: as well, like that's that's a rough hand that one.

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Speaker 3: And she gave up her leadership post to accept this

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Speaker 3: nomination to be you on ambassador, and so now she's

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Speaker 3: back in Congress and it's sort of put them at

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Speaker 3: a loss because they're trying to figure out how to

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Speaker 3: let Alista find it come back into Congress heat it's

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Speaker 3: a leadership post or in a post that makes her

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Speaker 3: feel like she's leadership adjacent. So it's been a really

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Speaker 3: brutal few months for her. She's she's sacrificed for the

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Speaker 3: cause and is not getting rewarded for it.

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Speaker 2: And then the other piece of this, so Waltz is

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Speaker 2: over to the the UN and then the person who

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Speaker 2: at least for now is replacing him is Marco Rubio,

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Speaker 2: who already is wearing a bunch of different hats, so

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Speaker 2: he is already obviously Secretary of State, now Usaid Administrator,

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Speaker 2: US archivist. I didn't even I didn't even know this one.

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Speaker 2: Apparently he's also the head of the US Archives and

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Speaker 2: now also National Security Advisor, So I don't know if

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Speaker 2: he's going to stay in definitely as NSA, but that's

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Speaker 2: where who has been filled in right now, So you know,

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Speaker 2: to the the ideological piece, Rubio is also a ha.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Waltz is a hawk. That's, you know, part

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Speaker 2: of why Lumer and others wanted him out of there.

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Speaker 2: I certainly wanted him out of there as well. Rubio

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Speaker 2: is not really an improvement, though he's reconstructed.

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Speaker 4: Though Emily give us the pro Rubio case.

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Speaker 3: Well, I was going to say, Waltz is an unreconstructed

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Speaker 3: neo kan who packages himself as a reconstructed neokon. But

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Speaker 3: Rubio is sincerely a reconstructed neokon. Not that he is.

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Speaker 3: To be very clear, he does not have the foreign

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Speaker 3: policy of someone like JD. Vance or Tucker Carlson. He's

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Speaker 3: still fairly hawkish against China, but he's definitely shifted significantly

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Speaker 3: in very sincere ways. He's it's but the question is,

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Speaker 3: you know, does that do your ambitions also allow you

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Speaker 3: to be co opted by the unreconstructed conservatives who do

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Speaker 3: still work in these high level positions and the foreign

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Speaker 3: policy establishment, because you also kind of came in with

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Speaker 3: the residue of new Conservatism. So it's not like we're

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Speaker 3: putting Tucker Carlson in these positions.

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Speaker 2: To be very clear, my impression of Rubio is he's

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Speaker 2: reconstructed is just like a total and complete Trump Sika fan.

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Speaker 2: Like whatever Trump's ideology is, to say, that's what margat

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Speaker 2: Rubio's ideology is going to be that. I mean, we

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Speaker 2: saw that on full display at that grotesque North Korea

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Speaker 2: style cabinet meeting this week, which is just I mean, really,

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Speaker 2: this is one of the key characteristics of Trump two

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Speaker 2: point zero. Not to say it wasn't there in Trump

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Speaker 2: one point zero, but the levels of just dear leader,

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Speaker 2: you know, boot licking are off the charts. They have

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Speaker 2: reached grotesque new levels. And you know to that point too.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you guys saw the news that

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Speaker 2: Trump is planning on throwing himself this giant military parade

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Speaker 2: in DC.

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Speaker 5: For his birthday.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is this shit is incredibly disturbing to me,

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Speaker 2: Like just disturbing.

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Speaker 3: Isn't it also like the anniversary of the army or

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Speaker 3: something like that. I have to pull the article back up.

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Speaker 3: It's an ap story and it's it happens the fall

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Speaker 3: on his birthday. But it's also like the army is

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Speaker 3: that they.

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Speaker 4: Always finds something that falls on your birthday.

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Speaker 3: Every day is a holiday? Is a holiday?

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Speaker 5: Very true.

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Speaker 2: All right, let's let's get to this signal Israeli signal story. Ryan,

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you could pull up the drop

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Speaker 2: site thing, but let me first pull up.

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Speaker 5: Let me pull up this real quick.

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Speaker 2: So here's the image that this is pulled from that

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Speaker 2: cabinet meeting, the North Korea cabinet meeting, where this is

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Speaker 2: Mike Waltz. I mean, you can fully read a text

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Speaker 2: here from the Vice President of the United States. You

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Speaker 2: can see Tulsi Gabbard's in there, you can see wit Cough,

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Speaker 2: you can see Rubio. I'm not sure who that other

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Speaker 2: the one above Gabbard is. Maybe Emily knows, but in

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Speaker 2: any case, everyone was looking at this and like, oh

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Speaker 2: my god, you know here he is using signal in

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Speaker 2: the middle of the cabinet meeting, and you can read

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Speaker 2: some of the text messages just from the photography. And

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Speaker 2: then this guy points out, actually, no, it appears they're

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Speaker 2: using it as rarely firm's archive wrapper app called tele Message.

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Speaker 2: Hence the TM signal in the pin pop up means

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Speaker 2: they're attempting to archive to comply with federal records laws.

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Speaker 2: But I'm skeptical of security implications. And then Ryan, why

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Speaker 2: don't you pick up with your reporting?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so it popped up because because of this thing

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Speaker 6: right here, whereas verify your TM SGNL PIN. I remember

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Speaker 6: I saw that too, and I was like, that's not

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Speaker 6: that's as you I'm sure you guys noticed too, that's

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Speaker 6: not Signal, Like you know, Signal says verify your signal pin.

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Speaker 6: So this is a firm called tele Message and they

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Speaker 6: have this software called Signal Capture. So Signal is is

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Speaker 6: open source, but you need a license to use it.

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Speaker 6: Signal would not confirm that they had given us a

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Speaker 6: license or that that they had given this israelly firm

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Speaker 6: a license. But let's let me find this quote. We

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Speaker 6: did get a quote from them where they say we

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Speaker 6: cannot guarantee the privacy or security properties of unofficial versions

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Speaker 6: of Signal. So this is an unofficial version of Signal.

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Speaker 6: Like basically, what it's doing is using the signal base.

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Speaker 6: So the messages should be secure, uh, you know, end

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Speaker 6: to end. But then it makes a copy of them

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Speaker 6: and it puts it somewhere and we don't know where.

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Speaker 6: We don't is it is it putting the copy in

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Speaker 6: some White House server? Is it putting it in some

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Speaker 6: server that this is really firm controls but then licenses

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Speaker 6: back to the to the White House.

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Speaker 4: Uh, this was something that was put together on the fly.

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Speaker 6: You had Carolyn Levitt say recently that the administration was

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Speaker 6: working to solve the problem of transparency and of record

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Speaker 6: keeping because you know, under the record Keeping Act, you're

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Speaker 6: required to keep you know, official communications between between members

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Speaker 6: and signal disappears messages. So this seems to be the

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Speaker 6: answer to what Caroline Levitt was saying was the solution

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Speaker 6: that they were coming up with. But okay, that's a

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Speaker 6: it's a good thing that you would do that. But

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Speaker 6: because they slapped it together so quickly, they just went

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Speaker 6: out and got this israelly firm.

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Speaker 4: And so the firm is just completely stocked.

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Speaker 6: Its top two its top two officials are former Israeli

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Speaker 6: intelligence officials. A lot of you know, and a lot

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Speaker 6: of the engineers and other people who work for. It

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Speaker 6: also came out of Israeli intelligence, and the kind of

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Speaker 6: profile of the the people that work there is similar

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Speaker 6: to all of the Israeli spyware and surveillance companies.

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Speaker 4: And I'll just read this part.

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Speaker 6: Tech professionals have moved between companies like Telemessage and some

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Speaker 6: of the leading Israeli spyware firms. For example, a Loan Fallaw,

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Speaker 6: a technical support manager at Telemessage until twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 6: left the company a joint NSO Group. According to his

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Speaker 6: LinkedIn profile, NSO Group is the one that does Pegasus.

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Speaker 6: Pegasus is the no click penetration software. Will you don't

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Speaker 6: even have to click on anything, and it will get

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Speaker 6: into your get into your phone. The US has alternately,

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Speaker 6: like if supported it and even tried to sanction it

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Speaker 6: at times because it's so dangerous. Another employee joined Telemessage

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Speaker 6: last year after a stint at Celebrate, maker of hardware

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Speaker 6: and software widely used by law enforcement to extract data

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Speaker 6: from smartphones.

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Speaker 2: So, and the thing with Pegasus is all you need

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Speaker 2: to know is the person's phone number. Right, And another

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Speaker 2: thing we learned about was it.

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Speaker 4: Walter heggs hesth but probably also well probably I.

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Speaker 2: Mean that their numbers were just like freely available online,

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Speaker 2: easily obtainable. So I sort of assumed that the Israelis

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Speaker 2: and probably a bunch of other foreign nations as well,

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Speaker 2: already had access to all of these all of these messages,

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Speaker 2: because yeah, that that Pegasus program allows you just to

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Speaker 2: be able to get into someone's phone and all you

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Speaker 2: need to know is the phone number, which is terrifying.

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Speaker 6: Although if you if you have your phone on lockdown

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Speaker 6: mode and if there aren't any new exploits, it's difficult.

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Speaker 6: You know, pegasust requires your phone either to like you

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Speaker 6: have not been updated, you know, since the latest hack,

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Speaker 6: and especially if you have it on lockdown mode, pegasusts

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Speaker 6: can't really get in. And also apparently it costs something

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Speaker 6: like a million dollars a shot. It's extremely expensive. So,

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Speaker 6: like it reminds me of who was at Chris Rock

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Speaker 6: who was saying, we don't need gun control, we need

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Speaker 6: bullet control, Like make the bullets you know, cost twenty

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Speaker 6: thousand dollars and you're going to reduce crime. And so

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Speaker 6: if it costs a million dollars to fire off a

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Speaker 6: hacking attempt at say hag Seth, you're gonna be careful

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Speaker 6: about how many times you do that. Whereas if Mike

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Speaker 6: Watas and Haseth and all these others who were using

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Speaker 6: Signal just went to the app store and downrote, downloaded

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Speaker 6: this Israeli app boom like they're in.

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Speaker 3: Well, Ryan, do we have an indication of when they

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Speaker 3: did that? Is, do we know that it happened after

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Speaker 3: Signal game or could it? Is it plausible that they

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Speaker 3: were already using this and are they using both versions

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Speaker 3: of Signal? Because I'm wondering how contacts work, Like the

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Speaker 3: Jeffrey Goldberg thing, how he just get quote unquote sucked

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Speaker 3: in the reporting is that it came straight from Waltz's contact,

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Speaker 3: where like Apple Intelligence had saved Goldberg's phone number because

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Speaker 3: his aid sent it, and when he was going to

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Speaker 3: save his aid's number, it sucked in Goldberg's number. So

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Speaker 3: I'm just wondering, like what the what that might mean.

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Speaker 6: I mean, we don't know when they started using it.

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Speaker 6: It would stand to reason that they started using it

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Speaker 6: after they got busted using regular Signal, and and we're told, hey,

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Speaker 6: f yi, this is a this is a violation of

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Speaker 6: the Record Keeping Act. So we need we need to

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Speaker 6: figure out a solution, and so then they're then they're like, okay, well,

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Speaker 6: what kind of app can we get that uses Signal

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Speaker 6: as its base but also makes a copy. And the

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Speaker 6: way that Signal is vulnerable is the exact way that

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Speaker 6: Jeffrey Goldberg got in there user error, uh you know,

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Speaker 6: user error, and the device itself, like, because it's end

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Speaker 6: to end encrypted, you can't get in unless you're in

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Speaker 6: the person's device where they accidentally send you something. So

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Speaker 6: what this app does is it creates extra vulnerabilities because

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Speaker 6: it's taking the data, the messages that are on Mike

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Speaker 6: Waltz's phone and copying them onto another device somewhere, like

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Speaker 6: we don't know where, like some serve for somewhere. So

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Speaker 6: then now you have two points of vulnerability where a

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Speaker 6: hacker could get in, or an intelligence company again in

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Speaker 6: if the intelligence officials have access to that separate that

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Speaker 6: second server, because they set it up, you know, through

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Speaker 6: this bywear farm, you know, or through this Israeli tech farm,

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Speaker 6: then they would just be able to read right into it.

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Speaker 3: And this is really low hanging fruit. But I just

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Speaker 3: want to say you can see in that picture that

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Speaker 3: you guys use and drop site from Reuters he has

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Speaker 3: a reporters behind him. So he's sitting at the table

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Speaker 3: and he is openly on his signal. He's not like

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Speaker 3: covering the screen. He doesn't have a screen protector. He

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Speaker 3: has a message from the Vice President of the United

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Speaker 3: States up on his screen, including also Marco Rubio. He

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Speaker 3: has a call from Telsea Gabbart that just came in.

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Speaker 3: But there is a message that you can read from

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Speaker 3: jd Vance something about his counterpart. We don't know where,

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Speaker 3: We don't have all of the context. But if you

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Speaker 3: are a reporter sitting behind him. There are a lot

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Speaker 3: of foreign reporters, by the way, that are in the

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Speaker 3: White House press pool, and so it is just low

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Speaker 3: hanging fruit, but so enormously stupid for him to be

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Speaker 3: at a cabinet meeting with the press directly behind his shoulder.

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Speaker 3: Men have long lens cameras. Yeah, of course, but like

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Speaker 3: also they're standing five feet behind you. I cannot wrap

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Speaker 3: my head around the stupidity of voice.

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Speaker 6: Last point on this, if people think that I'm being

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Speaker 6: unfair and suggesting that Israel might actually have the motivation

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Speaker 6: to spy on the United States, there's a paragraph in

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Speaker 6: the story that sums it up well. In nineteen ninety eight,

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Speaker 6: Israel was identified by the National Counter Intelligence Center to

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Speaker 6: be on the Department of Energy Sensitive Country List. In

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Speaker 6: a two thousand report, NCIIC listed Israel as one of

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Speaker 6: the quote most active collectors of intelligence against the private

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Speaker 6: sector unquote. In twenty nineteen, the US government determined that

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Speaker 6: Israel had most likely planted stingray surveillance devices that mimics

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Speaker 6: cell phone towers around the White House, if you remember

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Speaker 6: that scandal, intending to spy on President Donald Trump in

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Speaker 6: his top aids. According to a Politico report, Israel denied

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Speaker 6: those allegations with their in mind with many other stories

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Speaker 6: that we've heard from decades.

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Speaker 2: We know, we know that they have great interest in

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Speaker 2: what we're going to do visa vi Ran, so they

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Speaker 2: have every incentive to know what you know. Pete hagg

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Speaker 2: Saith and Mike Waltz and all of these other characters

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Speaker 2: are saying to each other in signal, I mean, to

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Speaker 2: be honest with you, I'm a little surprised that they

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Speaker 2: reacted at all to the revelation that, like, hey, using

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Speaker 2: signal like this is actually illegal because you are not

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Speaker 2: complying with Foyer requirements. I'm actually a little bit shocked

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Speaker 2: that they cared at all about that, and we're't just like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we're just.

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Speaker 5: Going to keep doing it. We really want there for

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Speaker 5: you basically, you know.

438
00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:43,560
Speaker 2: So here Spencer, Yeah, just to go back to the

439
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 2: Laura Lumer piece of this. You know, Emily, what do

440
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,479
Speaker 2: we know about or Ryan either one of you? What

441
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,960
Speaker 2: do we know about her involvement? Because we know she

442
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 2: went to the White House the other a couple of

443
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 2: weeks back, and she got some other officials fired, but

444
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:01,719
Speaker 2: not Mike Waltz. And also, by the way, it was

445
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 2: what his like cheep of staff or his like top

446
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,480
Speaker 2: eight also was shown the door here and Walts of

447
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:08,399
Speaker 2: course to be technically correct, being moved over to U

448
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 2: an ambassador book anyway, and she had indicated she had

449
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,119
Speaker 2: some video that was going to be very damaging to

450
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,439
Speaker 2: Waltz as well. So I mean, what do we know

451
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 2: about her involvement? I did see an Axios report that

452
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 2: also said that people just kind of didn't like Waltz,

453
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,960
Speaker 2: like outside of an ideological bassist like Jade Vance had

454
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 2: pulled him aside on the Greenland trip and was trying

455
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,479
Speaker 2: to explain to him, you have to work better with people.

456
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 2: Apparently he treated Susie Wilds poorly, which seems like about

457
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,399
Speaker 2: the dumbest thing you could possibly do.

458
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 3: Doing right, So it's about as dumb as using signal

459
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 3: to talk to the Vice president front of reporters.

460
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 6: Front of reporters, right, so really tech firm version of signal.

461
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 2: I feel like there was a coalescing, a sort of

462
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,199
Speaker 2: horseshoe between an ideological distaste for Mike Waltz and just

463
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 2: a this guy's an idiot, he doesn't know what he's doing,

464
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:00,719
Speaker 2: and we don't like him and we don't want him

465
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 2: around anymore.

466
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, bear in mind, this is the National Security Advisor,

467
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 3: so he's like, can't even protect his own security, let

468
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,720
Speaker 3: alone the nation's security as national security advisor. But yes,

469
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 3: there's reporting that Susie wils thought he had been quote

470
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 3: too big for his breeches. And so I assume when

471
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,439
Speaker 3: the President of the United States is taking meetings with

472
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,160
Speaker 3: Laura Lumer, who is floating the possibility of some deeply

473
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 3: damaging video, the guy has already embarrassed the administration had

474
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 3: the weakest appearance on primetime Fox News that you could

475
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 3: possibly conjure, and he was already he came into the

476
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 3: administration with a massive trust deficit with people that are

477
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 3: in the more realist foreign policy circles, the like America

478
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 3: First MAGA. Foreign policy circles have always been suspicious of

479
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 3: Mike Waltz and definitely of the people he surrounds himself with.

480
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 3: So it's not insignificant that Laura Lumer in that White

481
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 3: House meeting seems to have named Alex Wong, who was

482
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 3: a top advisor to Mike Waltz, who was actually out

483
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 3: the door yesterday, somebody who does have Now Laura Lumer

484
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 3: is constantly invoking that he's Chinese and invokes his wife's

485
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,919
Speaker 3: ties to the foreign policy establishment. So that's sort of

486
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 3: in the air about, you know, the conversation, or it's

487
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,920
Speaker 3: part of the conversation that's been had about Alex Wog.

488
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 3: I have no idea what the validity of all of

489
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 3: the accusations against him are, but his pedigree is from

490
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 3: the foreign policy establishment, and that's exactly why people have

491
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 3: not always trusted Mike Waltz. And Ryan you actually might

492
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 3: even know more about the lumour of it all.

493
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 6: She said she would come on the show next week

494
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 6: so we can ask her then. But yeah, she she

495
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 6: she was hitting Alex Wong with like really not even

496
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 6: veiled kind of you know, like going after his Chinese

497
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,680
Speaker 6: ethnicity and saying he was like had like secret links

498
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 6: to the CCP and like.

499
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 4: A little much.

500
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 6: So we can ask her about that next week looking forward.

501
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:01,120
Speaker 6: But yes, she came in.

502
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 3: So how I suspect you have secret links to the IRA?

503
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 4: They could, That's why we had.

504
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 6: To Lumer's credit, she came in to the Oval office

505
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 6: with Mike Waltz present and ripped him to shreds, like

506
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 6: in front of him. And now he's fired like that,

507
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,640
Speaker 6: you get like tip of the hat to Lumer for that.

508
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean remember during the campaign, Susie Wilds

509
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 2: had Lumor kicked off the campaign plane before she had

510
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 2: been with Trump before the first debate, and then after

511
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 2: that they Susie Wiles said, you cannot be around this

512
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 2: woman anymore. So when you have the the partnership between

513
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 2: Lumor and Susie Wiles, they come together to you know,

514
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 2: to get you out of there, then I think you're

515
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 2: probably you're probably done unstable combination.

516
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 5: I'm gonna guess what if she'strategically brought.

517
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 6: Lumer back, and I think there's no question, there's no

518
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:05,679
Speaker 6: question that is exactly what happened.

519
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 3: Amazing.

520
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 6: You do not f with Susie Wilds Amazing, Like are

521
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 6: you crazy? Like yees, she absolutely ushered him in, ushered

522
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 6: her in and was like go to town, Laura.

523
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 2: They said he treated her like she was a staffer

524
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 2: to him and which also I mean to me.

525
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 6: I'll show you what a stafford is thirty minutes in

526
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 6: the Oval with Laura Lumer.

527
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, like, we'll see how this goes for you.

528
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 2: Yes, I wanted to get to this Ukraine minerals deal

529
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 2: that has now been signed. We now have more details

530
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 2: than yesterday when Emily and I were talking about it.

531
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 2: Plus I wanted to get Ryan's reaction to this. So

532
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 2: you guys, remember this minerals deal was sort of Zelensky

533
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 2: had this ideal, Lindsey Graham had this idea, and there

534
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 2: were some Trumpeline billionaires who also had this idea, basically

535
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 2: a way to pitch a transactional relationship to Trump visa

536
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 2: the Ukraine that would keep him invested in the conflict.

537
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 2: And this deal was subject to you know, this was

538
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 2: what Zelenski had come to the US for before when

539
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 2: they had that big blow up in the Oval Office.

540
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 2: And now some of the details here have changed. It's

541
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 2: actually become much more favorable towards Ukraine. It's still basically like,

542
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of economic exploitation, but it's not

543
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,479
Speaker 2: quite as exploitative as the original deal had been. And

544
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 2: so we've got a threat here from Michael Tracy, who

545
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 2: read all the details and has a breakdown here. He

546
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 2: says the text the minerals deal that was signed yesterday

547
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 2: is substantially different from earlier drafts. For one, it says

548
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 2: that future US military assistants to Ukraine, not past assistants,

549
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 2: will constitute capital contributions to the newly established Joint Investment Fund.

550
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 2: This can now be presented as the US in some

551
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 2: sense getting quote unquote paid for continuing to armed Ukraine,

552
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 2: which could be a useful political argument for continuing to

553
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 2: armed Ukraine. But with a more profitable deal. He goes on,

554
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 2: the agreement contemplates that Ukraine could or will receive reparations

555
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 2: for the invasion from Russia. This makeup as news to Russia. Yeah,

556
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 2: good luck, but that one compared to pass drafts US

557
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 2: ownership of Ukraine's physical infrastructure, it pears to have been

558
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 2: watered down with legal lease, but the US receives fifty

559
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 2: percent of the revenues from a large variety of natural resources,

560
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 2: including oil and natural gas. The agreement is purported to

561
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 2: strengthen the strategic partnership between the US and Ukraine, establish

562
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 2: a long term strategic alignment between the US and Ukraine,

563
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,120
Speaker 2: including support for quote Ukraine's security, And that was kind

564
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 2: of the idea here, is that by having US investment

565
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 2: in Ukrainian minerals and US capitalists profiting off of Ukrainian minerals,

566
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,360
Speaker 2: that would serve as a sort of like de facto

567
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 2: security guarantee for Ukraine, because we wouldn't want the Russians

568
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 2: messing with our capitalist stuff. One oddity would be people

569
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 2: who cast to get Ukraine for corruption and denounce the

570
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 2: Biden family for profiting from Ukraine related graft. Sharing this

571
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 2: sweeping economic and security integration between the US and Ukraine

572
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 2: without regard for whatever graft, it's likely to induce a

573
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 2: point that our own Emily Kashinski made yesterday as well.

574
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: So what is your reaction to this development and the

575
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 2: signing of this Ukrainian minerals deal, what it means for

576
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 2: this war going forward?

577
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,959
Speaker 6: Right, yeah, it's it's there, hold my beer moment, Like you,

578
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 6: what's this, like, Penny Anti fifty thousand dollars a month retainer?

579
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 6: Corruption you're doing with this energy company? Now just extort

580
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 6: and exploit the entire country.

581
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 3: Let's do lithium.

582
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 6: I noticed on the screen there that Big Balls is

583
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 6: trending to I don't like what is Big Balls still doing.

584
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 6: I thought Doge was wrapping things up.

585
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 2: But they did some interview with Jesse Waters I think yesterday,

586
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 2: so that's probably, Oh.

587
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 4: My goodness, okay.

588
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 6: I mean every every country is claiming to have these

589
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 6: rare earths, and the real problem is the is the

590
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 6: refinement ability, like can you can you get them out

591
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 6: and can you turn them into the products that are

592
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 6: then needed? And that's that's the real problem. The rare

593
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 6: earths are not actually that rare. So yeah, this is

594
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 6: this seems like just a gimmick to try to which

595
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 6: Lindsey Graham like said publicly it was a gimmick. Like

596
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 6: he rolled out this map and he said, look, I

597
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 6: know you're not into the war, you don't like all

598
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 6: the killing, but look at this map. This is all

599
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 6: money underneath the ground here. Wouldn't this be amazing if

600
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 6: we could just have all this money we're getting ripped off.

601
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 6: We're giving them all this for nothing. Binds an idiot.

602
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 6: You can be a genius and have all these things.

603
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 6: And he took it hook line and sinker.

604
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 8: Yeah.

605
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 3: Well, I was gonna say, there's reporting that Chevron and

606
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 3: Shell have tried to do big business like lots of like,

607
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 3: like they have really tried to make money in Ukraine

608
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 3: in recent years, and the corruption has been a significant

609
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 3: impediment to that. And if it's too corrupt for Chevron

610
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 3: and Shell to be able to feel comfortable making money,

611
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 3: you can see the just enormous rats mess that the

612
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 3: United States has just injected itself. And now, what are

613
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 3: the significant differences that's worth mentioning, of course, between like

614
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 3: Hunter Biden and general Ukrainian American corruption here is that

615
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 3: this is in the service of hopefully putting us on

616
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 3: a glide path to ending the slaughter.

617
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 6: But isn't it isn't the attempt here to keep the

618
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 6: slaughter going.

619
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 3: Kind of And definitely it does feel to me like

620
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 3: something that makes it much more And I think Tracy

621
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 3: just made this point. It makes it. It doesn't come

622
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 3: up with a long term solution to the conflict. If anything,

623
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 3: it feels like it's going into slow burned territory.

624
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 4: That's like the stated goal of it.

625
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because the idea is this obligates the US

626
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 2: to Ukraine in perpetuity. Now we have this locked in relationship.

627
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 2: I had a quote in the show yesterday from somebody

628
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 2: from the Council on Foreign Relations where they're basically like,

629
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 2: you know, our investment in their geology is the is

630
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 2: a de facto security guarantee.

631
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 5: And that's that's the idea.

632
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 2: I mean, that's why Zelensky immediately, uh, you know, being

633
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 2: a savvy political operator, as soon as Biden loses, he

634
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 2: switches the language from preserving democracy and we're in this

635
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 2: fight against a their authoritarianism whatever, switches it to let's

636
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 2: make a deal. And he had allies from Lindsey Graham,

637
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 2: who also Emily and I covered yesterday, is now out

638
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 2: with some big like let's sanction Russia somehow even harder

639
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 2: than we were before, which appears to have very likely

640
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 2: a veto proof majority in the Senate. We'll see if

641
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 2: it comes up for a vote or not. But you

642
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 2: know that is the idea is, effectively, this would enable

643
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 2: Ukraine to continue receiving weapons just in exchange for selling

644
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 2: the country's geology out from under the people of the country.

645
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 2: And it's also interesting to me, I'm curious what both

646
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 2: of you guys think about this, that the terms of

647
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 2: the deal have gotten much more favorable towards Ukraine since

648
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 2: that Oval Office blow up meeting, when a lot of

649
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 2: the reaction was like, oh, you know, Trump's done with

650
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 2: the LENSCA and it's over for him, and they're just gonna,

651
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 2: you know, they're going to cut off communications all together

652
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 2: and he's screwed, etc. And in the meantime from that

653
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 2: interaction to now, actually he won some significant concessions. They

654
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 2: don't have to give up all their port infrastructure. The

655
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 2: previous deal is basically like we're taking half your country

656
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 2: and that's it, end of story. This one is still

657
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 2: again very exploitaive, don't get me wrong, but it's not

658
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 2: as bad as the first one. And then the really

659
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 2: significant concession is you'll recall Trump was really adamant about

660
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 2: we want to get paid back for what we've already

661
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 2: given you, what we've already shipped, and this agreement says no.

662
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 2: I mean that was always like sort of a preposterous demand,

663
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 2: but this agreement says no, you know, this is just

664
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 2: going to be on a moving forward basis. So what

665
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 2: do you guys make of that? Of that shift in

666
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 2: the agreement and Zelenski seemingly getting some significant concessions here.

667
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 3: I think there are a couple of things behind it. First,

668
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,959
Speaker 3: Trump is now over his one hundred day mark and

669
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 3: has not secured a ceasefire in a conflict he said

670
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 3: he could end on day one as president. He understands

671
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 3: how significant for his voter's foreign policy is in a

672
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 3: way that the media often doesn't understand. I mean, he

673
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 3: has a lot of support and areas that are super

674
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 3: war weary because they don't like they're very, very very

675
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 3: cautious of entanglements that might end up with US boots

676
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 3: on the ground. And it's a personal sensitive issue for

677
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:17,439
Speaker 3: a lot of the places where he gets support from.

678
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 3: And I think he understands that about his own voters

679
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 3: in a way that media doesn't understand that about his

680
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 3: own voters. So I think on the one hand, he's

681
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 3: very aware of how weak it makes him look if

682
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 3: he's not able to secure an end to the or

683
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 3: secure a ceasefire, because you guys are right. I mean,

684
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 3: I don't think this is an end to the conflict

685
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 3: over the Dawnbass or over crimea by any means an end.

686
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 3: Hopefully as step towards an end to the daily slaughter,

687
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 3: we will see that is to be determined. But on

688
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 3: the other hand, I also think Donald Trump really is

689
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 3: and I'm trying to say this without sounding like insulting,

690
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 3: but he really is as simple as you think, like.

691
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 3: He wants to look strong, he wants to look like

692
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 3: he has made deals, and he wants to look like

693
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,439
Speaker 3: people have come crawling back to him. And as soon

694
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 3: as people realize that, I mean, we talk a lot

695
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 3: about the difference between Claudia Scheinbaum and Justin Trudeau and

696
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,839
Speaker 3: maybe now Mark Carney, but as soon as people realize

697
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 3: that there is a very simple way to deal with

698
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 3: Donald Trump, they can get gains. And I think Zelensky

699
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 3: was sufficiently sort of chastened by even Lindsay Graham freaking

700
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 3: out after that Oval Office meeting that he realized he

701
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,360
Speaker 3: went on Ben Shapiro's show, he was talking to the

702
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 3: press about how much he loves the United States, and

703
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 3: they had that little conversation at the Vatican literally in

704
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 3: the Basilica. And so I think Donald Trump, on the

705
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 3: one hand, is getting more eager, even more eager to

706
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 3: look like he has a political win on his hands

707
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 3: and he's getting closer to ceasefire. And then on the

708
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 3: other hand, I feel like he thinks that he looks

709
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 3: strong because Zolensky has come back to him to get

710
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 3: the deal. Now, whether or not that's true because the

711
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 3: deal is now even more sweet for Ukraine is a

712
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 3: different question. But I think that's what Donald Trump saw,

713
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 3: what he wanted to see from Zelensky, and it made

714
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 3: him comfortable moving forward.

715
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 6: The whole thing just seems kind of fake to me,

716
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 6: like in the sense that it's going to be overtaken

717
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 6: by events. Like it's like Ukraine is, as Trump very

718
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,240
Speaker 6: correctly said in the Oval Office, doesn't have any cards

719
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 6: to play yet. Now Trump is like spending all his

720
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 6: time playing cards with them.

721
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 4: What are you doing?

722
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 6: You take their chips? They don't have any chips, like

723
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 6: Russia's taking their chips. So the whole so it feels

724
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 6: like a total distraction from the reality on the ground.

725
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 2: Let me go out and play. Let this last piece

726
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 2: for you guys. This was Scott Bessett. It's another Michael

727
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 2: Tracy pulled this this clip, and this is Scott Bessett saying, basically,

728
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 2: we're fully and completely on the same page. There's no

729
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 2: daylight between US and Ukraine at this point. Let's take

730
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 2: a listen to that.

731
00:36:58,200 --> 00:36:59,280
Speaker 4: It's good for America.

732
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 8: It's good for you Ukraine, I believe also for Europe

733
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 8: in a lot of ways.

734
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 4: And tell us the details of that.

735
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 8: Showing it. It's a great deal. Thanks for having me

736
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 8: on tonight. And look that this is President Trump's deal,

737
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 8: that he's done trade deals, tax deals, and now we've

738
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 8: got this Ukrainian American economic partnership deal. And it's win

739
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 8: when it is a way to show that there's no

740
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 8: daylight between Ukraine and US. As President Trump presses to

741
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,959
Speaker 8: end this horrible war, he wants both sides to come

742
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 8: to the table now. By showing that the US has

743
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 8: an economic interest in Ukraine, it's a signal to the

744
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 8: Russian leadership. It's also a signal to the American people

745
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 8: that we have a chance to participate, get some of

746
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 8: the funding and the weapons compensation for those and be

747
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 8: partners with the success of the Ukraine people. Bring American

748
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 8: know how best practices to the rebuilt Ukraine. But the

749
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 8: rebuilding can't stop until this war ends, and President Trump

750
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 8: is committed to that.

751
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 5: So what do you guys make of that?

752
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 2: And I do think, you know, I mean, a lot

753
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 2: of the Republican base that is animated by the Ukraine

754
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:29,439
Speaker 2: War they have come to just outright hate Zelenski outright right,

755
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 2: you know, have distaste for Ukraine. And so I think

756
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 2: this is this is a very different approach and tactic

757
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 2: certainly than what they were expecting. What they were expecting

758
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 2: was more like what the Oval Office blow up, like

759
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,399
Speaker 2: the Magarite freaking love that they ate it up right,

760
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 2: They thought it was great. You know, have you ever

761
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 2: said thank you once? Et cetera, et cetera, And now

762
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 2: here you are back to this deal that really doesn't

763
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 2: look all that different from the Biden administration's approach of

764
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 2: just sort of like maintaining a status and continuing to

765
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,839
Speaker 2: ship weapons and letting this thing drive on in perpetuity.

766
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 3: Well, I think I mean in a non great way

767
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 3: that this actually is sort of a security guarantee and

768
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 3: that's kind of thee Yeah, and I feel like, you know,

769
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 3: the Biden administration didn't actually even really go that far.

770
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 3: I get what they're doing right, that it's sort of

771
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 3: they're trying to have it both ways, that it doesn't

772
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 3: look like a security guarantee, and then it is a

773
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 3: security guarantee, like they're using it intentionally as sort of

774
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 3: a roorshosh test, like if Ukraine wants it to be

775
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 3: a security guarantee, it is, But in like pragmatic terms,

776
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 3: it obviously could very much function as a security guarantee.

777
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 3: It's not NATO membership. But what does this mean for

778
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 3: how many Americans will regularly be on the ground, and

779
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 3: you like, we don't really know what that's going to

780
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 3: look like in a way that I think is quite concerning.

781
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,359
Speaker 3: But what was important from Trump's perspective, I really think

782
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 3: it was making it look like Zelenski kissed the ring

783
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,959
Speaker 3: and came back to the table for a similar deal.

784
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 3: So I don't know, I think that's a really good point. Christal, like,

785
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 3: what is Maga thinking now? I think maybe the best thing,

786
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 3: the best way that they're spinning it is this was

787
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 3: a big win for Trump. He had Zelenski come crawling back,

788
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 3: But it's not clear that that's actually what happened.

789
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 6: To me, it flows from the same error that Trump

790
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 6: made with with tariffs. Like he has he's identified, he's

791
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,479
Speaker 6: correctly identified a problem in both cases, and then he

792
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,879
Speaker 6: in his mind has identified a solution on the When

793
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 6: it comes to you know, manufacturing the working class, his

794
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:38,280
Speaker 6: solution is, somebody do big, beautiful tariffs. When it comes

795
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 6: to this war is bad, He's going to just end

796
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 6: the war.

797
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:42,720
Speaker 4: Like he kept.

798
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 6: He never he never expounded upon why he was going

799
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 6: to be able to do that. All he would say

800
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 6: is that if he if the election hadn't been stolen

801
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,919
Speaker 6: from him, the invasion never would have happened. And when

802
00:40:57,920 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 6: I get in, the war is going to end. So

803
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 6: was his plan a but without any you know, skitched

804
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,399
Speaker 6: sketch behind it. And when that didn't work, now he's

805
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 6: just flailing. So I think it's similar to how he

806
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 6: approaches most things.

807
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:16,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the gaps are being filled in by people

808
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 2: who do have an idea, a logic, who do have

809
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 2: ideology and do have a plan. And that would be

810
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,839
Speaker 2: like the Lindsay Grahams of the world, who you know, yeah,

811
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 2: pushing this minerals deal, and like I said before, has

812
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 2: a plan to even more aggressively sanctioned Russia because that's

813
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 2: definitely totally worked so far.

814
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what we need a few more sanctions.

815
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 2: Last point on this, this is just like, you know,

816
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 2: the Michael Tracy Ukraine segment, but I forgot it was

817
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 2: actually him that did this interview with Bannon. I'm not

818
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:41,359
Speaker 2: going to play it, but I'll just pull it up.

819
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 2: You remember he asked Bannon about this proposed minerals deal

820
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 2: and Bannon being kind of the emblem of the you know,

821
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 2: MAGA nationalist America first, right, his reaction was walk the

822
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 2: fuck away. He warns that the US needs to stop

823
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,959
Speaker 2: entangling itself with quote that cursed part of the world.

824
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 2: To get a flavor of how you know this person,

825
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 2: who certainly is in a lot of ways a leader

826
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 2: of the MAGA, right, how he feels about this direction.

827
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 8: Now?

828
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 2: Do I think he'll be like super critical of it

829
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 2: now that Trump is inked it and it's done.

830
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 5: I don't know. I won't hold my breath. But that

831
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 5: was his reaction initially.

832
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great point I forgot about. That was

833
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 3: a sea pack and we'll see how Bannon reacts now.

834
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 3: Be interesting.

835
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, indeed, we can ask Laura Lumer to next week

836
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 5: ran right.

837
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 4: Yes, indeed, all.

838
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 2: Right, let's get to the latest on the Alien Enemies Act.

839
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 2: So this is pretty extraordinary.

840
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 5: We now have a.

841
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:45,760
Speaker 2: Trump appointed judge who has barred the administration from removing

842
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 2: migrants under the Alien Enemies Act, saying that his invocation

843
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 2: of that law in the context of trender Aragua was illegal.

844
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 2: So this isn't saying like, you know, you did it

845
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,760
Speaker 2: wrong with this this person in particular, you can't apport

846
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 2: that particular person. This is saying, no, no, no, on

847
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 2: the merits, your invocation of this law was illegal. So

848
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 2: everyone who has been deported under this invocation of the

849
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 2: Alien Enemies Act according to this again, Trump appoint a

850
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 2: judge that was all done, you know, under illegal auspices.

851
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:25,320
Speaker 2: And if you read I read through the relevant portions

852
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 2: of this of this ruling, and it's exactly it says

853
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 2: exactly what you would think that it would say, which

854
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 2: is basically like, we're not at war. We're not at

855
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 2: war with Venezuela. This is not an invasion. Venezuela is

856
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 2: not behind trend or Agua. It's just you know, goes

857
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 2: to the merits of Alien Enemies Act has been used

858
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:47,399
Speaker 2: three times. It's really historically, the meaning of what war

859
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 2: and invasion is has been really clear, and what you're

860
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 2: doing here doesn't meet any of that standards, any of

861
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 2: those standards. So here is a portion they say as

862
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,800
Speaker 2: to that question. The historical record renders clear the presence

863
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 2: invocation of the AEA through the proclamation exceeds the scope

864
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,720
Speaker 2: of the statute, and it's contrary to the plain ordinary

865
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,439
Speaker 2: meaning of the statute's terms. As a result, the Court

866
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 2: concludes that, as a matter of law, the executive branch

867
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 2: cannot rely on the AA. And then he goes on

868
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 2: from here. This is Kyle Cheneyish's Politico's Court reporter just now.

869
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 2: Judge Rodrigoz also denied effort by the Trump administration a

870
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 2: hurriedly to port today one of those AEA targets Daniel

871
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 2: Zacharias Mattos under other immigration authorities. He wants briefing on

872
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,720
Speaker 2: the matter, needs to consider a jurisdiction, and a Trump

873
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 2: appointed judge says the present's use of the AEA was

874
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 2: unlawful because there's no evidence Trender Orwagwa, as harmful as

875
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 2: the gang is is literally invading the US as the

876
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 2: law requires. So Emily, let me get your reaction to

877
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,800
Speaker 2: this because I thought that this would come at some point,

878
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 2: but I was sort of wondering, like, when are we

879
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 2: going to get to actually determining whether the use of

880
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 2: this law at all, not just in these individual habeas petitions,

881
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 2: but whether this use of this law at all is

882
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 2: And it seems that we have arrived to fully expect,

883
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 2: pee lightfully expect, probably end up before the Supreme Court.

884
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 2: But the fact it's a trumpet pointed judge is certainly

885
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 2: not a good sign for the administration.

886
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 3: No, and but actually we talked about this yesterday. They

887
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 3: aren't really this is not something that they were not expecting,

888
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 3: like to that was double negative, like they were expecting

889
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 3: all of this. They knew that this would happen, and

890
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 3: that's why they assumed that this was likely to happen.

891
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 3: And that's why they're trying to go with a floodles zone,

892
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 3: throw everything at the wall, see what sticks legal strategy, uh,

893
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 3: and to do as much of it as quickly as

894
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 3: they possibly can, because they're very consciously concocting or they

895
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 3: already did. They spent the last four years concocting these

896
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,240
Speaker 3: sort of novel legal theories in order to get people

897
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 3: out of the country as fast as possible to keep

898
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 3: up with the pace of how many people came into

899
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,439
Speaker 3: the country under the Biden presidency, which is a lot.

900
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 3: According to the New York Times, some eight million nets.

901
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 3: So that's and some people think it's higher. But anyway,

902
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 3: all that is to say, they are are sort of

903
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 3: aware that they were skating on thin ice with this.

904
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 3: And I mean, it would be great to see a

905
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 3: judge find the entire Alien Enemies Act unconstitutional. That's like

906
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 3: the ideal situation, but they sort of knew that they

907
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 3: were stretching. It was kind of like, ah, look what

908
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 3: we can do. We can say that Trende Ragua is

909
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 3: an invasion like galaxy brain, and that's one way that

910
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 3: we could just get everyone the hell out of here.

911
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 3: So's it's definitely a set back because that was one

912
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 3: of the ways they would be able to get as

913
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 3: many people as they possibly could out really quickly. And obviously,

914
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 3: you know that wasn't going as well as they probably hoped.

915
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 3: But they also kind of knew that this was going

916
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 3: to be a problem. It just gives them an opportunity,

917
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 3: I guess, to rage on judges. But this is a

918
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,359
Speaker 3: trumpet pointed judge, So it was a little harder in

919
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 3: that case.

920
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't understand Emily why they don't just go

921
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 6: to Congress, Like and if they don't like the laws

922
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,760
Speaker 6: that are on the books and they think the political

923
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 6: wind is at their back when it comes to masterportations,

924
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 6: why don't they just get Steven Miller in these other

925
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 6: you know, lawyers that he's got to draft legislation and

926
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 6: send it to Congress and change change the laws? Is

927
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 6: it really the parliamentarian? Like, are we back to the

928
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 6: parliamentarian because they can't do it without sixty votes?

929
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 3: Like, well, the parliamentarian shouldn't even need to be a

930
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 3: problem in this case. They can write up new legislation.

931
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 4: It doesn't happen it would need sixty votes unless they can.

932
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, you could do it through reconciliation, but you probably

933
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 2: have to ignore the ruling of the parliamentarian, which they've

934
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 2: already basically said that they plan to do for other

935
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:33,799
Speaker 2: things as well.

936
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 6: So why not just do Like what is what are

937
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 6: they so afraid of when it comes to writing new laws?

938
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know what they would do, and like

939
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 3: I honestly I'm trying to think of what type of

940
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 3: law that they could come up with, because what they

941
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 3: really could do, and Glenn Greenwald, who's guest hosting on Monday,

942
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 3: made this point recently, is that you actually can do

943
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 3: these things pretty quickly in immigration courts. You probably need

944
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 3: a lot more immigration judges. You'd probably need to beef

945
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 3: that up significantly, and.

946
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:04,720
Speaker 4: We have a lot of unemployed lawyers.

947
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's right. But that's what I'm just going

948
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 3: to say is I think maybe they don't trust that process,

949
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 3: that they are sort of concerned that putting more people

950
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 3: through that legal process means a lot of people will

951
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 3: just be given like permanent status, permanent legal status, or

952
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 3: be on the glide path to citizenship. They're also concerned

953
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 3: that and this one I do think is a real

954
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 3: concern is that it becomes a carrot. It becomes a

955
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 3: draw for people to come in if you can get

956
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 3: processed really quickly.

957
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 2: But I think that's I think it's the opposite because

958
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 2: the reason it's a draw right now is because you

959
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 2: know you can come in and it's going to take

960
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 2: years for your silent claim to be adjudicated. I mean,

961
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 2: that's the loophole that you know, Listen, I think I

962
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,240
Speaker 2: personally am in support of a large number of legal

963
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,760
Speaker 2: migrants into this country. But that's that's the real problem.

964
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 2: If you want to expedite the deportation of people who

965
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 2: are here, you have to allow them to adjudicate their

966
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 2: claims and yes, go through a process. And quite on

967
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 2: the contrary, they've been firing immigration judges, so going in

968
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 2: exactly the opposite direction. Another round of firing hits immigration

969
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 2: course in Massachusetts, California, Louisiana, even as the Trump administration

970
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 2: continues its efforts up downsizing the government but also increasing

971
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:19,280
Speaker 2: immigration related arrests. At least eight immigration judges received notices

972
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 2: they be put on leave their employment be terminated on

973
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 2: April twenty second. So you know, I personally think that

974
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 2: there's some other things going on here. I mean number one,

975
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 2: as we talked about yesterday, Emily, like Stephen Miller explicitly

976
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,719
Speaker 2: as part of his ideology, he wants there to be

977
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 2: a display of outrageous cruelty in hopes that that will

978
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 2: cause people to self deport and so shipping people off

979
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 2: either to go on tonam obay, which they also do,

980
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 2: or to this torture dungeon for life. Yeah, that's going

981
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,239
Speaker 2: to scare the shit out of a lot of immigrants,

982
00:49:55,480 --> 00:50:00,280
Speaker 2: especially in that sense. Yeah, especially when you learned like, oh,

983
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:03,280
Speaker 2: actually these aren't the quote unquote worst of the worst.

984
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 2: This is a makeup artist with mom and dad tattoos

985
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 2: and a soccer player who has an autism awareness tattoo.

986
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 2: Like the vast majorities, youll have no criminal record, so

987
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 2: you start if you're here, even if you did everything right,

988
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 2: because we also know that you know, uh, kill mar

989
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 2: Brego Garcia. He was removed even though there was an

990
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 2: order saying you cannot remove him to this particular country.

991
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 2: We know that others had come in via the CBP

992
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 2: one app followed the procedure. We're showing up for their hearings.

993
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:33,839
Speaker 2: We're doing everything right, So none of that serves as

994
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 2: a protection. That's exactly the message that Steven Miller wants

995
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 2: to send, is that your entire life, like we can

996
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 2: casually destroy your entire life and not just deport you,

997
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:49,840
Speaker 2: but we can send you and sentence you for life

998
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 2: to this horrific you know, this horrific place where the

999
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 2: Bekelly and his people say the only way you come

1000
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 2: out as in a casket. So I think that's part

1001
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:03,879
Speaker 2: of it. I think the other part of it is

1002
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 2: that their narrative on immigration, and this is really one

1003
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 2: of the innovations of the Trump anti immigrant approach, at

1004
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,240
Speaker 2: least in you know, with regard to the US context,

1005
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 2: is instead of primarily talking about challenge with immigration being

1006
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 2: about jobs or being about housing or economic issues, he

1007
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 2: talks about it almost exclusively as.

1008
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:27,319
Speaker 5: Being about criminals.

1009
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 2: That these are all criminals, and they're you know, they're

1010
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 2: coming in and they're raping our women, and they're you know,

1011
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 2: murdering people. And that's why the Lake and Riley Act

1012
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 2: is the first thing they passed through Congress. And so

1013
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 2: if you go through a legal process, it is going

1014
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 2: to become quite apparent that overwhelmingly they are not criminals.

1015
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:49,840
Speaker 2: You know, yes, there are criminals in the undocumented population,

1016
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 2: lower number than the native born population. And so you

1017
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,720
Speaker 2: cannot keep up the farce of this is a group

1018
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 2: of horrible, you know, savages who are destroying our country

1019
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 2: and you know, are the worst of the worst, and

1020
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 2: they're terrible people, and they let out the from the

1021
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 2: insane asylums, as he always says, you cannot maintain that

1022
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 2: farce if you're actually going through some process and people

1023
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 2: have to interact with who these humans actually are and

1024
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:19,919
Speaker 2: the reasons they came, and you know, the way they've

1025
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 2: been conducting themselves since they were here as well. So

1026
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 2: to me, that's the reason why they really have no

1027
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:28,279
Speaker 2: interest in actually changing the law and going through some

1028
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 2: sort of semblance of a legal and constitutional process, because

1029
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 2: they want the cruelty and they also want to avoid

1030
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:37,399
Speaker 2: the scrutiny of hey, you know, these are like people

1031
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 2: who often are good community members, are paying taxes and

1032
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 2: trying to do everything right.

1033
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 3: Branded did you want to jump in, Okay, yeah, no,

1034
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:47,359
Speaker 3: I was just gonna say, I think I think part

1035
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 3: of it is the cruelty. Yes, I agree with that,

1036
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,320
Speaker 3: and I think that's your point on the tactics is

1037
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 3: also right. The more that you send people through immigration judges,

1038
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:58,959
Speaker 3: the more it becomes obvious that people who have much

1039
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 3: more sympathetic cases. Now they might be ones that I

1040
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 3: disagree with, but for the broader public, they're much more

1041
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:11,240
Speaker 3: sympathetic than MS thirteen members or trendy Ragua members being

1042
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:14,759
Speaker 3: booted out, because people, when they look around, realize in

1043
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 3: their daily lives that there are a whole lot of

1044
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 3: people who've been here for a very long time and

1045
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:21,800
Speaker 3: even five years is a long time. You belt Kilmara

1046
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:23,959
Speaker 3: Brego Garcia has been here since twenty twelve, He's got kids.

1047
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 3: That's the case with many, many people married to US citizens.

1048
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 3: And it's politically much even if there are a whole

1049
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:33,360
Speaker 3: lot of people in the country who are like, I

1050
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 3: don't care, get them out, it's politically with the broader

1051
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,839
Speaker 3: public a much more difficult case to make, There's no

1052
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 3: question about that.

1053
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:42,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the broader public rind was really sold

1054
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:46,400
Speaker 2: on mess deportation from this idea of it's largely this

1055
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:49,720
Speaker 2: is a largely criminal group. And we can already see

1056
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:54,520
Speaker 2: as the broader public is interacting with the actual details

1057
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:57,360
Speaker 2: of who these humans are and the Wave administration is

1058
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 2: approaching all of this, the numbers have shifted already quite dramatically,

1059
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 2: and so you can only imagine if you had, you know,

1060
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 2: legal process playing out, and you were you able to

1061
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 2: access more of these human details, that it would not

1062
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 2: be you know, the public would not maintain the same

1063
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:16,920
Speaker 2: level of support for mass deportation as they did when

1064
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 2: they were theoretically thinking of like, oh, it's going to

1065
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:20,920
Speaker 2: be the criminals and the worst of the worst that

1066
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:22,239
Speaker 2: are that are first in.

1067
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 5: Line for this mass deportation.

1068
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:24,879
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1069
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:28,280
Speaker 6: And I think the conservative media did an effective job

1070
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:32,280
Speaker 6: at circulating a lot of you know, narratives about eating

1071
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:35,480
Speaker 6: cats and you know, the weird stuff out of Springfield

1072
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:39,720
Speaker 6: and the and the the mainstream media I think undermined

1073
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 6: itself by like ignoring that when you know, when trende

1074
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 6: a raqua took over basically took over that apartment complex

1075
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 6: and like Colorado Springs or wherever it was, and it

1076
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:54,279
Speaker 6: didn't get you know, didn't get any attention. And then

1077
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 6: the and then the right wing media was able to

1078
00:54:57,239 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 6: like say, no, look, this is actually happening. And then

1079
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 6: it raises questions in people's minds, like is there a

1080
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 6: lot more of this happening that we're not being that

1081
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:05,880
Speaker 6: we're not being told about.

1082
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 4: And I think the the.

1083
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 6: Like brutal increase in housing probably probably was strung together

1084
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:18,280
Speaker 6: in people's mind with hostility to you know, mass migration,

1085
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 6: like all these people came in and now housing prices

1086
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 6: are out of control, which I understand, like why you

1087
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 6: would intuitively kind of make make that link when you know,

1088
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 6: in fact you actually need you know, labor to build

1089
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 6: the housing that we need. Like the problem is we're

1090
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 6: not building enough housing for a growing population. But certainly

1091
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:39,239
Speaker 6: if there's more people then just supply and demand is

1092
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:42,720
Speaker 6: going to put some pressure on housing prices. So I

1093
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:44,760
Speaker 6: you know, I think you, like you saw in Europe,

1094
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:48,279
Speaker 6: you can't really disconnect some of people's you know, frustrations

1095
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:51,320
Speaker 6: that they're going to then take out on immigrant.

1096
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 2: Population, especially when the Democratic Party just just just got

1097
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 2: scared and we're like, yeah, they're right, we actually are

1098
00:55:57,440 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 2: going to be even to hover on the border. And

1099
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:02,239
Speaker 2: so you have both parties basically, you know, putting the

1100
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 2: same narrative of this is an invasion, This is the

1101
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:08,360
Speaker 2: number one problem. These are bad people. We need to

1102
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 2: you know, Kamala Harris up there, I'm the only one

1103
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:14,279
Speaker 2: who's prosecuted transnational things, et cetera. And so yeah, if

1104
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 2: both parties seemingly agree that, you know, these are criminals

1105
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 2: and they need to they need to make it, but

1106
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 2: then it must be true. And so you know who

1107
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:26,320
Speaker 2: we're gonna trust more to deal with that problem, Kamala

1108
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 2: Harris or Donald Trump. I don't think there's any doubt

1109
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:30,759
Speaker 2: that if you are looking for who's going to be

1110
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 2: you know, toughest and most aggressive in dealing with this

1111
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,279
Speaker 2: problem that both parties have now come to agree, as

1112
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 2: you know, is uh through a shared frame of course,

1113
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:44,239
Speaker 2: you're gonna go in Donald Trump's direction with that one. Yeah.

1114
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 3: The last point on it is, I think that'll all

1115
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 3: contributed to it. I just think it's the simplest answer

1116
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:51,360
Speaker 3: in the situation, which is that we hadn't seen immigration

1117
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 3: happen at a rate as fast as the as it

1118
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 3: was Daring Biden since Alice Island. And I think that's

1119
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 3: just like it just sort of a shock to the

1120
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 3: system that made people, you know, change from what they

1121
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:03,800
Speaker 3: thought under the first administration when.

1122
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:07,359
Speaker 4: And we shut it down after Ellis Island for like

1123
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:07,959
Speaker 4: forty years.

1124
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:10,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, true, all right.

1125
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:13,680
Speaker 2: I wanted to get both you guys reaction to an

1126
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 2: interesting horseshoe moment here. Let me, I don't know that

1127
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 2: much about it, so I'm gonna let you guys kind

1128
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 2: of set this up. But David Dan was tweeting about

1129
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 2: this some good news. Jim Jordan and the gpgudiciary had

1130
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 2: a surprising change of heart, had a dangerous proposals shift

1131
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 2: the ftc ANTI trust capacity to the DJ big win.

1132
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:33,920
Speaker 2: Great to see a representative Jayapaul and Beca is her

1133
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 2: last name. Balen I think take a strong stand, and

1134
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 2: David Dan said, bad people with terrible political instincts tried

1135
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 2: to make a thing and of Lena Kahan taking a

1136
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 2: picture with Steve Bannon for short term political advantage. Bannon

1137
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 2: was who pounded Jordan into submission on this proposal that

1138
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 2: picture might have saved a federal agency. Ryan, give us

1139
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 2: what's going on here?

1140
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 4: Yep.

1141
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 6: Beca Ballant was my state senator when I lived in Vermont.

1142
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 6: She's now the congresswoman for the entire state of Vermont.

1143
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 6: So we have a story coming on this. It drops

1144
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:05,480
Speaker 6: the news that I'm kind of sitting on. It's my fault.

1145
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 6: I haven't moved it. But basically, Jim Jordan, you know who,

1146
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 6: has been playing this and Emily can talk more about this,

1147
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 6: playing this double game for many years where you know,

1148
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:17,800
Speaker 6: he bashes big tech on a cultural level and talks

1149
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 6: about how it's awful that they're trying to, you know,

1150
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 6: censor conservative speech. And meanwhile he hires a bunch of

1151
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 6: people from law firms that work for big tech or

1152
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 6: direct from big tech, or his people you know, go

1153
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 6: then work for big tech. He takes a ton of

1154
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:36,960
Speaker 6: money from big Tech. They've taken well this will be

1155
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:39,080
Speaker 6: in our story, but you know, enormous amounts of trips

1156
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 6: paid for by big Tech. His top tech aide left

1157
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 6: his office and then went to work for Melissa Holyoake,

1158
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:52,560
Speaker 6: who is the most pro big tech FTC Commissioner. And

1159
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:55,959
Speaker 6: so you know, he's been there, he's been the big

1160
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:58,520
Speaker 6: tech's like best ally and as chair of the Judiciary

1161
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 6: Committee despite but he says publicly to the you know,

1162
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 6: his his MAGA base and his he put legislation out

1163
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 6: that would basically strip the FTC of all of its

1164
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 6: anti trust enforcement power a huge shot, and that that

1165
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 6: that swing was so big, like he fell out of

1166
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 6: his shoes, and it allowed it finally allowed Bannon and

1167
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:26,480
Speaker 6: others to say, look, we've been telling you that this

1168
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 6: guy is actually a tody for big tech.

1169
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 4: Now now look how obvious it is.

1170
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 6: He's he's stripping the FTC of all of its anti

1171
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:36,400
Speaker 6: trust power. You know, Jordan was saying, oh, it'll go

1172
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 6: to DJ and it'll be better because of that. And

1173
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 6: the reason a lot of people don't buy that is

1174
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 6: like here you've got Steve Bannon, with the powerful and

1175
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:48,840
Speaker 6: beloved FTC chair Lena Kah and so it reminds me, oh, yeah,

1176
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 6: like FTC does good things, and now here's Jim Jordan

1177
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:55,600
Speaker 6: trying to take away its power while it's actively going

1178
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 6: after you know, still going after big tech. So I

1179
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:02,760
Speaker 6: think Jordan has kind of been exposed by this and

1180
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:06,640
Speaker 6: he now backed off under pressure from Bannon. Emily, anything

1181
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:09,640
Speaker 6: you want to add about the game Jordan plays in DC.

1182
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 3: No, I just add to Dane's point that actually, if

1183
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 3: Bannon hadn't done it, other people would have. And I

1184
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:18,040
Speaker 3: do think that's really interesting. I was at a big

1185
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 3: anti trust, conservative anti trust event last night on the Hill,

1186
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 3: and what's the problem is there aren't as many like

1187
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:30,120
Speaker 3: hardcore anti trust conservative anti trust like intellects because they

1188
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:32,880
Speaker 3: haven't been groomed over the course of decades to see

1189
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 3: the world through this like Neil Brandeisian lens, which is

1190
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:38,439
Speaker 3: much more common on the left for obvious reasons because

1191
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:43,000
Speaker 3: it's an embrasive government power. But that's slowly, slowly changing.

1192
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 3: So what we're just seeing is kind of a power

1193
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 3: struggle tug of war because those people have a very

1194
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 3: powerful ally in Steve Bannon, but they also have powerful

1195
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:54,800
Speaker 3: allies like in Mago world more broadly, which is again

1196
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 3: it's not to say that they've won the party, not

1197
01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 3: even close. The Jim Jordan's are still much more common.

1198
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 3: Big Tech used to give tons of money Conservatives. It

1199
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 3: used to be a very natural marriage. They're always at

1200
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 3: sea pack having like massive parties because they were the

1201
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:13,240
Speaker 3: free market's success. So it's it's changing very slowly, but

1202
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 3: it's still an uphill battle, There's no question about it.

1203
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:18,040
Speaker 3: I would just say it wouldn't have only been Bannon

1204
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 3: who was an uproar about it. He's a powerful ally,

1205
01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:22,920
Speaker 3: but people like Mike Davis Article three Project like they

1206
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 3: would have been firing off on this too, and he was.

1207
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:30,919
Speaker 6: Mike Davis appeared on Bannon's podcast and ripped Jordan over

1208
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 6: it with a with a funny pun where he said,

1209
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 6: you know, Jim Jordan loves to go to the mat

1210
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:36,320
Speaker 6: for big Tech.

1211
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 3: You did there, Mike Wrestler.

1212
01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:41,520
Speaker 5: Guys, get it.

1213
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:44,560
Speaker 2: We should We should reveal to the audience that Emily

1214
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:47,080
Speaker 2: actually changed our group chat picture to be that picture

1215
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:48,919
Speaker 2: so good.

1216
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:51,080
Speaker 9: And you know what, I shouldn't say this, but I

1217
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 9: have been I have my like glossy photo paper for

1218
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 9: my printer, and I have been thinking of just secretly

1219
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:58,880
Speaker 9: putting a framed picture of that behind us on the set,

1220
01:01:58,920 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 9: but I keep forgetting to do.

1221
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:01,440
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, we need that.

1222
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 5: That's a great idea.

1223
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 3: That's such a funny picture.

1224
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 2: This is like kind of related actually, But there's been

1225
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:13,200
Speaker 2: pushback led by Rand Paul to the Trump tariffs on

1226
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 2: the right as well. And this is an interesting comment

1227
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:18,280
Speaker 2: from him. So he met with Trump's trade rep. Is

1228
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:20,560
Speaker 2: that Navarro that he's talking about. He said, it reminded

1229
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:22,920
Speaker 2: me of a meeting on industrial policy in the Soviet Union,

1230
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:25,040
Speaker 2: where you have to be nice to the tsar because

1231
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:27,360
Speaker 2: if you're nice to the czar, they'll bequeath upon you

1232
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:31,320
Speaker 2: exceptions to the iron fist. And I mean that to

1233
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:33,880
Speaker 2: me is like the whole point of these terroriffts, by

1234
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:36,800
Speaker 2: and large is that it does consolidate that kind of

1235
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 2: power with the executive. But there was also some preposterous,

1236
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:45,200
Speaker 2: you know, pathetic situation that unfolded in the Senate where

1237
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 2: Rand Paul was trying to push the resolution that would

1238
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 2: have you know, reclaimed power to levy terrorist which is

1239
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 2: supposed to be with Congress anyway, and was at Sheldon

1240
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:57,840
Speaker 2: white House, the Democrat who's like in Korea right now,

1241
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:00,080
Speaker 2: So didn't get back in time for the vote, and

1242
01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:03,080
Speaker 2: the vote failed forty nine forty nine, they weren't able

1243
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 2: to get you know, one more vote.

1244
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 3: So the strongest anti corruption soldier.

1245
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:10,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, in any case, I thought I was I thought

1246
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:13,480
Speaker 2: it was interesting Rand Paul, you know, specific like obviously

1247
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 2: this is right in his ideological wheelhouse, and this is

1248
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:19,520
Speaker 2: a bridge too far for him to go.

1249
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 3: My sense is that so it was with Jamison Greer,

1250
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:25,320
Speaker 3: I think is who he met, so the ustr OK

1251
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 3: and I think they.

1252
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 2: Are Borrow's official title. I don't know, it's like serious

1253
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:36,680
Speaker 2: or something. Senior crank. What about what is the what

1254
01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 2: is his pend of ron? What's the fake name?

1255
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:42,360
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, what's his official title?

1256
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 4: Is his name? Yeah?

1257
01:03:44,200 --> 01:03:47,320
Speaker 6: Somebody have to tell us in the comments because he's

1258
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:49,760
Speaker 6: got a fake advisor that he pretends Vera.

1259
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:52,880
Speaker 5: Isn't that it? I think that's it? Yeah.

1260
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:54,720
Speaker 3: First of all, this is great news for you guys

1261
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:58,880
Speaker 3: that the power is being consolidated in a dear leader

1262
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:02,320
Speaker 3: communist type system. I think this is somebody them that

1263
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:08,240
Speaker 3: you guys is going to do a great job, perhaps

1264
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 3: better than comrade Navarro. But though I think Greer is

1265
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:16,800
Speaker 3: in a situation himself where his tariff policy, because everyone

1266
01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:19,040
Speaker 3: remembers the famous moment where he found out that Trump

1267
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:22,919
Speaker 3: had instituted the pause while he was testifying. I think

1268
01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:26,920
Speaker 3: where Rand Paul is interpreting this from Greer is that

1269
01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:29,320
Speaker 3: Greer is interpreting this from his own boss, which is

1270
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 3: I'm the freaking boss. And so if you're James and Greer,

1271
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:35,120
Speaker 3: and you have to be the intermediary between Congress, which

1272
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:36,760
Speaker 3: are supposed to have this power, which is why you

1273
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:40,840
Speaker 3: also have Rand Paul making the weirdest like horseshoe in

1274
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:43,280
Speaker 3: the opposite direction ever, with like Susan Collins and Lisa

1275
01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:46,040
Speaker 3: Murkowski and Chruck Schumer. It's sort of amusing to see

1276
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 3: that happen. But you also then have Greer having to

1277
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:54,080
Speaker 3: communicate the policy is just whatever Trump says the policy is,

1278
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 3: because that is ultimately what the policy is. So good luck.

1279
01:04:57,360 --> 01:04:58,439
Speaker 3: That sounds like fun.

1280
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, well we've already seen that, right, Like you know,

1281
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:05,200
Speaker 2: the people who are giving money to the inauguration and

1282
01:05:05,240 --> 01:05:07,280
Speaker 2: paying to go down to mar A Lago and the

1283
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 2: Nvidia guy had you know, paid however many millions to

1284
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:12,480
Speaker 2: get dinner with him, and then they get their car

1285
01:05:12,560 --> 01:05:17,040
Speaker 2: downd et cetera. So and apparently actually Gretchen Whitmer humiliating

1286
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:21,040
Speaker 2: herself and ending up in these photoshoots with Trump has

1287
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:23,880
Speaker 2: paid some benefits for her getting some of the auto

1288
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:26,280
Speaker 2: teriffs rolled back, and that Sean Fain also being sort

1289
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:28,520
Speaker 2: of favorable on the auto tariffs, I think has also

1290
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:31,200
Speaker 2: given him an in to get some of these exemptions

1291
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:34,479
Speaker 2: and rollbacks on the auto tariffs as well. So, yeah,

1292
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:37,480
Speaker 2: that is that is definitely the system that we have

1293
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:39,200
Speaker 2: right now. You have to go and plead your case

1294
01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:41,040
Speaker 2: to the King if you're going to have any chance

1295
01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:43,600
Speaker 2: of survival, and of course, you know to go back

1296
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:45,920
Speaker 2: to the monopoly point. Who's going to be able to

1297
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:47,880
Speaker 2: do that? It's going to be the big companies. If

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01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:50,280
Speaker 2: you're smaller, medium sized business, you're not going to have

1299
01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:52,200
Speaker 2: that access. You're not gonna have the money to obtain

1300
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:54,320
Speaker 2: that access. You're not going to have the lobbyist to

1301
01:05:54,320 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 2: be able to plead your case. You're not even going

1302
01:05:56,120 --> 01:05:58,280
Speaker 2: to have if you're a small business, you're not even

1303
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:00,280
Speaker 2: gonna have the wherewithal to be able to all of

1304
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:04,480
Speaker 2: the day to day changes in the tariff and regulatory regime,

1305
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:07,280
Speaker 2: which that in and of itself puts you at risk

1306
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:10,240
Speaker 2: because you are struggling to be able to comply with

1307
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Speaker 2: whatever the dictators of the day. So I do think

1308
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Speaker 2: one of the impacts of these tariffs is going to be,

1309
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:23,240
Speaker 2: you know, a further consolidation among the big players at

1310
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:26,920
Speaker 2: the expense of small and medium sized businesses who do

1311
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:30,360
Speaker 2: not have the flexibility to adapt or the access to

1312
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:31,920
Speaker 2: be able to get their car buns.

1313
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Speaker 6: And the irony, of course, is that the small and

1314
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:40,560
Speaker 6: medium sized businesses are much more American, much more patriotic

1315
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:43,040
Speaker 6: to an extent, because they have been an.

1316
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:46,960
Speaker 2: Important Republican base. I mean that's like the Republican Party.

1317
01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:51,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, it has been, yes, since since the fifties or whatever, yes,

1318
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:58,640
Speaker 6: even before that. And the big companies are multinational corporations

1319
01:06:58,680 --> 01:07:02,960
Speaker 6: with no real allegiance to the UNI estates. So I

1320
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:04,200
Speaker 6: don't know what they think they're doing.

1321
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:06,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, that's all that is all well said.

1322
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Speaker 2: All right, I wanted to get you guys reaction to

1323
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:11,880
Speaker 2: this kind of extraordinary moment with Tucker Carlson and Matt

1324
01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:14,160
Speaker 2: Walsh here. All right, guys, thank you so much for

1325
01:07:14,240 --> 01:07:16,400
Speaker 2: watching the free portion of the Friday Show. We're going

1326
01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:19,200
Speaker 2: to move into some premium bonus content, so if you

1327
01:07:19,240 --> 01:07:21,240
Speaker 2: want to watch that as well, make sure to go

1328
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:24,520
Speaker 2: and subscribe at Breakingpoints dot com. And for all of

1329
01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:27,080
Speaker 2: you guys who are already premium subscribers, that portion is

1330
01:07:27,080 --> 01:07:27,880
Speaker 2: going to start right now,