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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent

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Speaker 2: coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about,

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Speaker 2: it just means the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 2: But enough with that, let's get to the show. Good morning, everybody,

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Speaker 2: Happy Tuesday. We have an amazing show for everybody today.

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Speaker 2: Where do we have Christal Indeed we do.

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Speaker 1: We got two guests in the studio today, so that's

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Speaker 1: going to be exciting. We've got Maurice Mitchell from the

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Speaker 1: Working Families Party talking about the race for the new

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Speaker 1: DNC chairs is kind of a big deal in terms

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Speaker 1: of the war that is on for the future of

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Speaker 1: the Democratic Party. We've also got Trump has confirmed his

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Speaker 1: intention to use a national emergency and military assets to

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Speaker 1: fulfill his plans for mass deportation. Shelby Talcott is going

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Speaker 1: to join us to talk about that and other Trump transition.

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Speaker 3: News got a.

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Speaker 1: Little debate cooking between Sager and producer Griffin about some

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Speaker 1: Bena Fleck comments with regard to AI. We're also taking

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Speaker 1: a look at how liberals are fleeing Twitter and heading

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Speaker 1: over to Blue Sky and what to make of that.

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Speaker 1: Also something that did not make in the show yesterday

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Speaker 1: because we talked too much in debate it too much,

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Speaker 1: but very important and significant news about the Biden administration

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Speaker 1: green lighting long range missile cues into rush up from

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Speaker 1: Ukraine and what that could ultimately mean. I am also

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Speaker 1: taking a look at the ad Komalist corporate donors did

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Speaker 1: not want you to see, and the big debate that

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Speaker 1: is unfolding in the Democratic Party about what went wrong

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Speaker 1: and what the future should hold. Maurice Mitchell from the

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Speaker 1: Working Families Party is going to join us as well

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Speaker 1: to weigh in on that.

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Speaker 2: Thank you to all of those when signing up for

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Speaker 2: premium subscribers Breakingpoints dot Com if you want to go

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Speaker 2: ahead and take advantage, You've got big plans this year.

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Speaker 2: It's going to be fun already, look at the look

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Speaker 2: at these amazing stories that are here, not just polls,

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Speaker 2: politics and all that we're talking about Ben Affleck, Blue Sky,

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Speaker 2: Ukraine and so much more so. There's a lot of

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Speaker 2: policy on the deck for the next at the very least,

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Speaker 2: you know, first two years of the Trumpet medministration before

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Speaker 2: the midterms, and I'm really excited to shift and start

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Speaker 2: thinking deeply about that. Actually covering a presidency is really exciting.

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Speaker 2: We got to do it all together the first time

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Speaker 2: with Joe Biden, or get to do redo it again

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Speaker 2: with the President Trump. So Breakingpoints dot com if you

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Speaker 2: want all of that and want to see some of

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Speaker 2: the interesting things that we have that are coming next.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and whether or not you become a premium subscriber,

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Speaker 1: please also like and share our videos on YouTube. It

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Speaker 1: see what we're up to over here. Appreciate and love

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Speaker 1: you guys as always.

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Speaker 2: Best.

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Speaker 1: All right, So, yesterday over on MSNBC, Joe and Mika

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Speaker 1: of Morning Joe revealed that they had made a trek

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Speaker 1: down to Mara a Lago to restart relations with Trump.

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Speaker 1: The like just self aggrandizing way they talk about all

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Speaker 1: of this is amazing in any case, take a listen

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Speaker 1: to what they had to say.

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Speaker 4: Joe and I went to Mara a Lago to me

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Speaker 4: personally with President like Trump. It was the first time

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Speaker 4: we have seen him in seven years now.

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Speaker 5: We talked about a lot of issues, including abortion, mass deportation,

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Speaker 5: threats of political retribution against political opponents and media outlets.

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Speaker 2: We talked about that a good bit.

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Speaker 6: And that's going to come as no surprise to anybody

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Speaker 6: who watches this show, has watched it over the past

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Speaker 6: year or over the past decade, that we didn't see

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Speaker 6: eye to eye on a lot of issues, and we

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Speaker 6: told him so.

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Speaker 4: What we did agree on was to rest our communications.

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Speaker 4: My father often spoke with world leaders with whom he

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Speaker 4: in the United States profoundly disagreed. That's a task shared

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Speaker 4: by reporters and commentators alike. We had not spoken to

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Speaker 4: President Trump since March of twenty twenty, other than a

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Speaker 4: personal call Joe made to Trump on the morning after

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Speaker 4: the attempt on his life in Butler, Pennsylvania. In this meeting,

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Speaker 4: President Trump was tearful, he was upbeat. He seemed interested

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Speaker 4: in finding common ground with Democrats on some of the

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Speaker 4: most divisive issues. And for those asking why we would

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Speaker 4: go speak to the president elect during such fraught times,

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Speaker 4: especially between US, I guess I would ask back, why

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Speaker 4: wouldn't wade there?

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Speaker 1: Sager is so much about this that is incredible. I

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Speaker 1: mean the first thing that comes off is just like,

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Speaker 1: I mean, she's comparing herself to her father.

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Speaker 2: Who is the National Security Advisor of the United States.

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Speaker 2: Right for everybody, you're.

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Speaker 1: Just some jergof morning show host, Like what are we

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Speaker 1: talking about? So there they are so narcissistic and so

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Speaker 1: self aggrandizing.

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Speaker 3: So that's the first thing.

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Speaker 1: The second thing is that literally weeks ago, Joe was

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Speaker 1: comparing Trump to Hitler. Yes, Mika was in tears, literally

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Speaker 1: in tears on the even the election talking about her

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Speaker 1: concern about Trump. So they were, you know, happy to

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Speaker 1: profit off of fear of Trump before he's elected.

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Speaker 3: And now I think it's equal parts.

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Speaker 1: You know, fear, they see Matt Gates coming in at DOJA,

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Speaker 1: they see Steve Bannon saying, hey, he's going to go

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Speaker 1: after MSNBC hosts starting with Ari Melburn and working down

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Speaker 1: the list, and also their constant desire to suck up

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Speaker 1: to power. I mean, the same thing, Like these were

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Speaker 1: the two morning show hosts. Remember these were Joe Biden's

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Speaker 1: favorite morning show hosts. They were all on the phone

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Speaker 1: with him constantly. And by the way, Democrats in terms

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Speaker 1: of media figures, who are responsible for the current state

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Speaker 1: of affairs, You would be hard pressed to find two

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Speaker 1: individuals who are more culpable for the destruction of the

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Speaker 1: Democratic Party and the ushering of Trump back into the

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Speaker 1: White House than these two people. Number One, aggressively smearing

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Speaker 1: and destroying Bernie Sanders and his movement both times around,

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Speaker 1: blocking that path of actual left economic populism that would

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Speaker 1: have been far more successful in defeating trump Ism than

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Speaker 1: warmed over neoliberalism. Number Two, these were the people who

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Speaker 1: rallied the troops around Joe Biden, blocked any sort of

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Speaker 1: primary process from happening. Even after that disastrous debate, they

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Speaker 1: were there still saying, oh, I still think he's the guy,

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Speaker 1: still backing him up. So they are so complicit in

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Speaker 1: this ultimate situation. And not to mention, where else are

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Speaker 1: never Trump Republicans more featured and more centered and their

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Speaker 1: concerns more catered to than this show. And what was

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Speaker 1: the most disastrous part of Kamala Harris and the Democratic

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Speaker 1: Party's strategy in this election than their desire to go

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Speaker 1: after the mythical Liz Cheney voter that does not exist,

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Speaker 1: that could have been hatched and maybe was hatched in

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Speaker 1: the morning Joe Green room. So it's just extraordinary all

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Speaker 1: the way around and really quite discussing. MSNBC audience is furious,

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Speaker 1: and frankly they should be, because these are a bunch

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Speaker 1: of liars, grifters and con artists who were happy to

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Speaker 1: con the audience and now well that Trump's in power,

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Speaker 1: go and suck up to the next powerful individual, because

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Speaker 1: that's just what they do.

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Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, And that's that's the cognitive dissonance that you

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Speaker 2: need to say, because this is what it's all in

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Speaker 2: the game, right, And I actually kind of agree with that.

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Speaker 2: But the point is is that you can't be telling

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Speaker 2: people that this is literally Hitler reincarnate and you're a dictator,

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Speaker 2: and then when they get elected then you're like, oh,

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Speaker 2: well look it's the game. And comparing yourself and narcissism

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Speaker 2: to your father, you're actually successful and intelligent father, as

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Speaker 2: a beg New Brazinski national Security, the advisor of the

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Speaker 2: United States who sat across from Khrushchev and others, you know,

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Speaker 2: in his capacity as a diplomat. You're not a diplomat.

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Speaker 2: You're a freaking morning show host. And as you alluded to,

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Speaker 2: we have some side by side footage of what it

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Speaker 2: was like, not that long ago, let's take a listen,

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Speaker 2: this is not a reach.

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Speaker 6: I could go back and talk about Nazi Germany and

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Speaker 6: I do it. I do it without any concerns whatsoever.

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Speaker 6: And if people can't start drawing the parallels, well you're

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Speaker 6: just stupid, or you have your head in the sand.

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Speaker 6: Are your one of them?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So Nazi Germany nineteen thirty three, it's like, which

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Speaker 2: is it? And so actually, you didn't mean it the

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Speaker 2: entire time. It was a con or you did meet it.

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Speaker 2: And now that you know, quote unquote Nazi Germany and

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Speaker 2: or Hitler has been elected, then you've just decided You're like, oh, actually,

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Speaker 2: we just need to respect the will of the people.

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Speaker 2: So there's inherent narcissism. There is business, obviously, that's a

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Speaker 2: huge part of it, because a lot of this is

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Speaker 2: Morning Joe wanting to preserve its access, of which, by

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Speaker 2: the way, I've had a ton of access in the

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Speaker 2: first Trump administration, and you know, a lot of maga

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Speaker 2: people don't like to hear it. There's nothing that Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump loves more actually than access talking to and gossiping

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Speaker 2: with the liberal media. Literally seen in the firsthand. There's a

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Speaker 2: reason why he gets to have dinner with them and

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Speaker 2: not or sorry. Breakfast apparently was bacon and eggs.

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Speaker 4: By the way.

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Speaker 2: The diplomatic the diplomatic arections. Yeah, the restarting of communications

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Speaker 2: just incredible, and I also love how scripted. Their entire

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Speaker 2: answer was, so you see self andngrivesment, aggrandizement, you see business,

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Speaker 2: you see hipocrisy. I would say it's the total MSNBC

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Speaker 2: cocktail that is going on over there.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: And you know, the other way that should be seen

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Speaker 1: is as we've been discussing on this show and I'll

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Speaker 1: talk more about in my monologue today, there's basically sort

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Speaker 1: of there's a war going on in the Democratic Party

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Speaker 1: right now about what just happened and what it means

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Speaker 1: for the future. And there's effectively two camps, one camp

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Speaker 1: on which the side of Joe and Mika is effectively

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Speaker 1: the status quo, like nothing is that wrong, or if

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Speaker 1: there is something that's wrong, it's just like the wokeism,

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Speaker 1: and we need to continue on this like punching left

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Speaker 1: as much as we can, which is already the status

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Speaker 1: quo and the Democratic Party, and actually what we need

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Speaker 1: to do is to capitulate to some aspects of trumpsm

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Speaker 1: you see that with I think this is example number one.

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Speaker 1: Joe and Mika going down to mar A Lago is

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Speaker 1: a case in point of that. Jared Poulis's comments about

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Speaker 1: RFK Junior, Cory Booker his comments that also seem to

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Speaker 1: be favorable to RFK Junior even in advance of the election,

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Speaker 1: Jeff Bezos not making the endorsement at the Washington Post, Zuckerberg,

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Speaker 1: Sundar Puchai, Tim cook All calling Trump to make nice

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Speaker 1: with him. That is one direction. I think it's the

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Speaker 1: most likely direction that the Democratic Party goes in that

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Speaker 1: they say, hey, we want to work with you on

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Speaker 1: your mass deportation immigration policy. We actually want to shift

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Speaker 1: to the right and be where you are more or

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Speaker 1: less and ron is basically like trump Ism light. I

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Speaker 1: think that's the most likely direction, and it bears a

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Speaker 1: lot of commonalities and has a lot of echoes with

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Speaker 1: what Bill Clinton did in the nineties, where it was okay,

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Speaker 1: I see that this neoliberal direction of Reganism has won.

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Speaker 1: So we're just going to basically do like our version

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Speaker 1: of that on the Democratic side. And I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to say that it couldn't be electorally successful. I think

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Speaker 1: it could. But that sort of capitulation to trump Ism

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Speaker 1: is one path, and that's the path that Mika and

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Speaker 1: Joe are signaling and pushing for here. The other path

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Speaker 1: is to offer something that is a completely contrasting vision

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Speaker 1: that is anti establishment but in a left economic populist direction.

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Speaker 1: Rather than immigrants and cultural elites being the scapegoats, it's hey,

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Speaker 1: it's the burning Sanders. The problem is the millionaires and

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Speaker 1: the billionaires. The problem is the rigged democratic establishment. The

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Speaker 1: problem is the corrupt media. That's the other direction they

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Speaker 1: could go in. They're less likely to go in that

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Speaker 1: direction because it threatens the class interests of their donor

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Speaker 1: something else I'm going to talk about in my monologue today.

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Speaker 1: But that's basically the condours of the war right now.

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Speaker 1: So that's part of what makes this so significant. Outside

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Speaker 1: of just like Joe and Mika being ridiculous people and

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Speaker 1: grifters and connors and liars who just will sell their

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Speaker 1: audience whatever they think is convenient in the moment, what

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Speaker 1: is more significant about it is, you know, they're clearly

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Speaker 1: taking sides in this battle within the Democratic Party, and

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Speaker 1: you know they are quite influential, They are quite influential.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that I would say, in terms of

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Speaker 1: their motive saga that you were alluding to is we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk in a minute. I mean, MSMBC ratings.

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Speaker 3: Are in the toilet like bad and.

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Speaker 1: I think that it's this always happens after if there's

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Speaker 1: some bad news for Liberals, you know, the ratings tank,

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Speaker 1: same thing on Fox News, and there's some bad news

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Speaker 1: for Republicans, their ratings.

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Speaker 3: Tank, whatever.

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Speaker 1: Those are usually temporary blips and things kind of return

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Speaker 1: to some sort of a steady state. I think I'm

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Speaker 1: SMBC is in real trouble here, though, because their whole

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Speaker 1: theory of the world has centered around the idea of

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Speaker 1: an anti Trump coalition, with these never Trumpers being the

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Speaker 1: way and the model to follow in order to defeat

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump, and their view of the world was just

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Speaker 1: completely repudiated. It was, it is thoroughly incorrect, It is

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Speaker 1: totally wrong, and a lot of Liberals are now feeling

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Speaker 1: very disenchanted with their own mainstream institutions. So, whether it's

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Speaker 1: The New York Times, the Washington Posts, certainly, but also MSMBC,

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Speaker 1: I think real damage has been done and there's a

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Speaker 1: danger that those people just.

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Speaker 3: Don't come back.

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Speaker 1: You also don't have you know, last time around the

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Speaker 1: Trump administration, you had all the Russia Gate thing, which

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Speaker 1: is like a spy novel exciting. It was exciting for

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Speaker 1: them to tune into Night after Night Rachel Maddow gonna piece.

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Speaker 3: Together and how does the story and blah blah blah.

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Speaker 1: You just don't have that same intrigue for them to

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Speaker 1: draw the audience back in with, which was also you know,

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Speaker 1: them selling their audience a bill of goods that turned

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Speaker 1: out to be much less, dramatically less than what they

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Speaker 1: ever portrayed.

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Speaker 3: So I think they're in real trouble.

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Speaker 1: And I think joh and Mika realized that it's not

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Speaker 1: going to be their ratings that allows them to hang on.

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Speaker 1: In fact, their ratings have never been all that great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that's true, but it's just like very high, very

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Speaker 2: wealthy and thing that's right.

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Speaker 1: And so the other thing they can bring to the

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Speaker 1: table is access. So if you have access to the

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Speaker 1: party in power, that gives you some cred that makes

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Speaker 1: you valuable within the organization. And so I think it's

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Speaker 1: also you know, life insurance policy for them within MSNBC,

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Speaker 1: where the audience is going to be furious with them,

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Speaker 1: but they are making the calculation that it's worth accepting

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Speaker 1: that fury from most of the MSNBC audience in order

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Speaker 1: to have that level of access.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you alluded to the ratings. Let's ahead and put

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Speaker 2: that on the screen. A twelve, Please up on the

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Speaker 2: screen so we can see this, and you can actually

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Speaker 2: see here the amount of primetime viewers that are in

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Speaker 2: the key demographic for their show. So Ari Melburg for

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Speaker 2: example sixty six thousand, Joy Reads seventy six thousand, Chris

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Speaker 2: Hay seventy seven thousand, Alex Wagner fifty three thousand, The

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Speaker 2: Last Word fifty three thousand, and Stephanie Rule at sixty

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Speaker 2: two thousand, prime time time. And this is the key demographic,

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Speaker 2: which is.

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Speaker 3: What the KA the only thing that matters.

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Speaker 2: That's the only thing that matters for the advertisers. If

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Speaker 2: you look at the weekend, it's more insane. We're talking

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Speaker 2: in the twenties. You know, even in primetime they're lucky

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Speaker 2: to crack thirty three thousand there at the five pm

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Speaker 2: hour with Al Sharpton on the weekend. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: don't have to tell everybody here who's watching a YouTube

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Speaker 2: show or listening to a podcast that you know, we

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Speaker 2: would be bankrupt literally if we're trying to run a

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Speaker 2: business of our scale with numbers like that and the

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Speaker 2: key demographic. You know, we have literally millions of people

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Speaker 2: who watch this show, not just our show, all kinds

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Speaker 2: of different shows on YouTube and elsewhere, which are almost

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Speaker 2: I think almost one hundred percent of our audiences in

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Speaker 2: the key demographic. Just for you know, in terms of

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Speaker 2: looking at where the age divide is there. But I

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Speaker 2: also want to get to something deeper. Something you said,

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Speaker 2: if you've watched MSNBC for eight years, you were sold

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Speaker 2: a bit of goods. You were sold a false view

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Speaker 2: of the world if you watch the show, if you

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Speaker 2: watch really a lot of shows that are non mainstream.

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Speaker 2: There was a theory of Trump in twenty sixteen, which

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Speaker 2: I think we definitely talked a lot about her on

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Speaker 2: the show. We're like, no, this is not an aberration,

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Speaker 2: this is not like, you know, there's a theory that

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Speaker 2: you could have an anti Trump coalition. But the shifts

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Speaker 2: that took place in twenty sixteen were fundamental, and they

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Speaker 2: were a lot more than just Hillary Clinton was bad

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Speaker 2: or Russia sold the election. We had major demographic change.

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Speaker 2: There was immigration, there was trade, it was forty year reckoning,

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Speaker 2: the Iraq War. You're not gonna get any of that

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Speaker 2: on MSNBC, and you haven't for the last eight years.

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Speaker 2: Every once in a while, a guest will pop up

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Speaker 2: and tell the truth and it goes viral because it's like, wow,

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Speaker 2: it's so shocking to actually see somebody in that format.

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Speaker 2: But again, like if you're watching here and you were

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Speaker 2: prepared for Donald Trump victory, and not just a victory,

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Speaker 2: you were prepared for even the case that has now happened.

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Speaker 2: You know, the popular vote, the realignment, all of those,

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Speaker 2: you know, the young male shift to the right, the

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Speaker 2: gender democratic the gender gap that's happened between men and women,

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Speaker 2: the Latino male realignment, young people's disillusionment with Israel policy.

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Speaker 2: We've covered that at nauseum for years, in and out.

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Speaker 2: I don't really know how you can function as a

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Speaker 2: Morning Joe viewer. So in a certain sense, they were fooled.

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Speaker 2: I mean, they literally were hunwinked from reality over the

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Speaker 2: last eight years. In a certain part, I almost feel

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Speaker 2: bad for them, But that's also why it's so disingenuous

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Speaker 2: for them to act this way now today and that's

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Speaker 2: the key point is that they're shape shifters and their narcissists,

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Speaker 2: and this actually shows what the entire game is all

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Speaker 2: about at the end of the day.

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Speaker 1: The way you know that they're really screwed over there

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Speaker 1: is that you had even Jen Saki coming on and

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Speaker 1: basically being like, you know, this whole never Trump thing.

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Speaker 1: She went on mourning Joe the home the beating heart

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Speaker 1: of never trump.

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Speaker 3: Ism, and said, you know, maybe this was not.

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Speaker 1: The right group to go after because guess what, they

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Speaker 1: only exist in your green room, guys.

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Speaker 3: So you know you're screwed when that happens.

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Speaker 1: When David Brooks is out there writing columns like, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe Bernie Sanders had a point. When Senator Chris Murphy,

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Speaker 1: who is no renegade, is out there saying, you know

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Speaker 1: why we were so aggressive against Bernie Sanders, it's because

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Speaker 1: we didn't want his program of class warfare to impact

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Speaker 1: our high net income base or donor class like. When

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Speaker 1: you have figures like that admitting that the last eight

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Speaker 1: years have been a lie, a mistake, a ruse acon

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Speaker 1: of their own base, that's how you know that the

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Speaker 1: whole MSNBC edifice is crumbling and it's one of the

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Speaker 1: more hopeful things, frankly, to come out of this election,

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Speaker 1: because it has been a disaster for anyone who is

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Speaker 1: on the left who does want a different direction for

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Speaker 1: the Democratic Party. I can't tell you how influential MSNBC

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Speaker 1: has been. I mean, I genuinely think sacery. You can

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Speaker 1: tell me if I'm wrong that MSNBC is by and

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Speaker 1: large the reason that Joe Biden was able to win

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Speaker 1: the nomination.

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Speaker 3: Autely because no question, if you remember.

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Speaker 1: Back in twenty twenty, what happened, Okay, Bernie Sanders was winning.

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Speaker 1: He did you know, he claims he won Iowa.

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Speaker 3: We all know.

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Speaker 1: Bernie really one Iowa will say he did well in Iowa.

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Speaker 1: He wins New Amstry goes on to Nevada just romps like,

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Speaker 1: wins overwhelmingly in Nevada, and the Democratic Party has an

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Speaker 1: oh shit moment like Bernie Sanders could actually be the nominee.

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Speaker 3: Jim Clyburn makes his move.

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Speaker 1: Obama makes a bunch of calls behind the scenes, basically

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Speaker 1: gets everyone to drop out. Joe Biden wins South Carolina

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Speaker 1: expected then everyone drops out and the media coalesces behind

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Speaker 1: him and behind this narrative of those first three states

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Speaker 1: really didn't matter, really didn't count. The only thing that

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Speaker 1: matters is Carolina. And by the way, Joe Biden is

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Speaker 1: the only person who could defeat Donald Trump. So they

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Speaker 1: aggressively sold this narrative to the Democratic base, and the

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Speaker 1: Democratic base, desperate to defeat Donald Trump, was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I guess we're going with Joe Biden then, and then

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Speaker 1: Joe Biden comes from behind it. I mean, the way

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Speaker 1: the polls shifted during that time period was like nothing

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Speaker 1: we have ever seen before because of the msnbcs of

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Speaker 1: the world leading the charge to coalesce the Democratic base

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Speaker 1: behind him. And at that point it was so effective

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Speaker 1: because liberals still had so much trust in places like

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Speaker 1: the New York Times and MSNBC and CNN. So when

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Speaker 1: they said it's got to be Joe Biden, guys, he's

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Speaker 1: the only one that can win, they said, all right, well,

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Speaker 1: I guess that's what we're going to do.

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Speaker 3: You're not going to have that dynamic anymore.

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Speaker 1: Those same places do not have the same level of

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Speaker 1: trust and influence with the Democratic base that they once did.

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Speaker 1: I truly believe that that trust, not that it's like

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Speaker 1: totally gone, and no one's gonna blah blah blah blah.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to overstate it, but that level of

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Speaker 1: just obedience to whatever the narrative is coming out of

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Speaker 1: those mainstream institutions. I truly think that's gone and broken,

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Speaker 1: and I think that is a very positive and hopeful thing.

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Speaker 1: If there's going to be any prayer of the Democratic

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Speaker 1: Party doing anything interesting going forward.

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Speaker 2: That's right. We also have John Stewart, who waited on

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Speaker 2: this in only the way that he can. Let's take

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Speaker 2: a listen.

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Speaker 5: Ortion, mass deportation, threats of political retribution against political opponents

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Speaker 5: and media outlets.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I bet you really lead down the gauntlet, Joe.

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Speaker 2: I'll bet you walked in there just let him have it,

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Speaker 2: didn't you.

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Speaker 7: Joey, I'm gonna do a one act play called Joe

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Speaker 7: and Mika go to Marlago, Miss the President. Your rhetoric

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Speaker 7: is outrageous.

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Speaker 2: I cannot in.

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Speaker 8: Good conscience who those.

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Speaker 7: Whoa the pink one is Rolbury. We've learned nothing, even

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Speaker 7: though it putting up resistance to Trump's agenda, don't seem

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Speaker 7: to understand who they're dealing with.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's too perfect, too perfect, And John

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Speaker 1: goes on this whole thing too, about how Democrats are

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Speaker 1: just wholly unable to grapple with the hardball tactics that

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Speaker 1: are deployed by Trump and by his people, where you know,

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Speaker 1: when it's Democrats in power, it's like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: the parliamentarian said, we can't do it. So guess what, guys,

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Speaker 1: no minimum wage? Tike, sorry are a baud. We tried

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Speaker 1: really hard. And then with Trump it's like I want

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Speaker 1: mac eates at DJ and they're like, well, there's not

436
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 1: the votes for it, and he's like, I don't care.

437
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:49,879
Speaker 1: I have this way of doing a recess appointment. And

438
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 1: Democrats are left falling back on like the norms. I

439
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,360
Speaker 1: don't think that's appropriate global, I mean that's what they do.

440
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 2: Yes and no. I mean certainly yes, yeah, they definitely

441
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 2: yes when they want something, and they also do it like,

442
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 2: let's not pretend that either. So give me an example,

443
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 2: DACA legalizing literally a million people with the pen what

444
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:08,439
Speaker 2: is it? The pen and the phone? Like it's not

445
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:09,159
Speaker 2: like democrats.

446
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 3: How many years ago was that, Sager?

447
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 2: That's the most outrageous example, years ago, giving one where

448
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,440
Speaker 2: they're literally willing to use I mean the student loan

449
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 2: thing is like didn't pass through Congress, decided to try

450
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 2: and do it through executive action failure, by the way, and.

451
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 1: How did that work out? I mean they got like

452
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,880
Speaker 1: a yeah lay amount compared to what he was gonna exactly.

453
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the thing, is like to your I

454
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,480
Speaker 1: guess one thing I will say is that I think

455
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,360
Speaker 1: you're right that the priorities that they just crumble on

456
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 1: are things they don't really care.

457
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 2: That's no. The point is is that they just they.

458
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,360
Speaker 1: Don't serve their base. The Republicans actually serve their base. Yes,

459
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 1: Democrats do not serve their base whatsoever. In fact, their

460
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 1: whole mo which is part of how they end up

461
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 1: in this situation, is to like smear and ride their

462
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:58,399
Speaker 1: own base, Like how many years have they aggressively gone

463
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 1: after the young base of their party? And then you

464
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 1: wonder why young people are drifting away from the parties

465
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 1: because you didn't. You spent years saying that they were

466
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 1: bad and wrong and anti semitic, etc.

467
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 3: So, yeah, there's just a.

468
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 1: Very different orientation between the way the Democratic Party approachases

469
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 1: these things.

470
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 2: I think I could see why you think that, and

471
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 2: perhaps we may have arrived at this but the Republican

472
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 2: base has also been anti illegal immigration for like twenty

473
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 2: years and actually hasn't gotten anything. So well they get

474
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 2: something this time, like maybe, but you know, don't forget

475
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 2: even under the Donald Trump administration quote unquote, nothing fundamentally changed,

476
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 2: no bench or piece of legislation past. Will it happen

477
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,920
Speaker 2: this time? Maybe? I'm actually still very skeptical. I think

478
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 2: I don't underestimate the power of the business lobby or

479
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,119
Speaker 2: any of these people in stopping you know, what is

480
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 2: eventually going to happen. Chaos is already the status quo.

481
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,680
Speaker 2: We're going to talk about that with Shelby Talcott, and

482
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 2: I think that chaos is a vacuum of which business

483
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 2: lobbyists and others prefer. It's possible that Trump is a

484
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 2: much more organized figure. I don't see ton of evidence

485
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 2: for that. I think certain things that they ran on

486
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 2: that have now co lesst ideologically over eight years can

487
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 2: and will happen, But that does not mean it will

488
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 2: be like as a coherent ideology. It's not FDR that

489
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 2: we're dealing with here, at least is the way that

490
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 2: I'll put it. But overall, the way that I think

491
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 2: that we can look at this is the MSNBC. The

492
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 2: problem is is I can't discount them because they also

493
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 2: have a Scotsman effect of like who is left in

494
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 2: the actual Democratic Party and the people who are left. Yes,

495
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,439
Speaker 2: they may be dissolutioned, but the truth is is that

496
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,159
Speaker 2: rich white people are now the Democratic base, right Like

497
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,959
Speaker 2: those are the people who overwhelmingly moved and voted and

498
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 2: showed up for Kamala Harrison. Those people still do have

499
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 2: a deep amount of institutional trust. And when they don't

500
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 2: have institutional trust, it's not the way that you and

501
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 2: I talk about, right, they'll be like the New York

502
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 2: Times wasn't tough enough on Trump, Like that's literally what

503
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 2: they think. They think that the media. They think that

504
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 2: if more Americans had not been if Trump enough been

505
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 2: quote normalized or whatever, that they would not vote for him.

506
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 2: Obviously it's a stupid ideology, but that's what they think.

507
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 2: So I'm not I wouldn't count them out yet. I

508
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 2: think that even on MSNBC, they'll find their way, you know,

509
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,400
Speaker 2: they they they'll find an agenda and all these other

510
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 2: things that they can come to together. And I am

511
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say just yet that these rich whites are

512
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 2: willing to abandon MSNBC in those institutions, I could see

513
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 2: a big surge for things like Midas Touch. And you know,

514
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 2: if people do go online, it'll be like, yeah, literally

515
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 2: Midas touched Brian Tyler Cohen.

516
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: But you know, even them though, even like Midas Touch

517
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: has been on the like you know what, Bernie was right.

518
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 2: Oh really, I don't count myself too familiar with Midas Touch.

519
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 3: I do think that I think you're correct, though.

520
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 1: I do think there will be more of a migration

521
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: to YouTube and podcasts among some portions. In fact, you

522
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,199
Speaker 1: already see it with you know, actually we see it

523
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 1: over in Crystal Kyle and Friends. Ryan sees it on

524
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 1: drop site, David Sarti sees it on lever News that

525
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 1: over Nathan J.

526
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 3: Robinson like they're seeing it too.

527
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: There there has been a surge and like, all right,

528
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 1: this shit has not helped me understand the world, and

529
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: so I do need to search out other alternatives. Michael

530
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: Moore actually put out a big post of like here's

531
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: some other places to go. Yeah, and so I do

532
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: think there will be a shift to and just because

533
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: of the economics of YouTube, even if you have people

534
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 1: who are you know, basically like you know, Blue Resistance figures,

535
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 1: like the mightus Touch guys. There's just a different ecosystem

536
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,479
Speaker 1: and a different set of incentives over on YouTube, so

537
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: you end up with different commentary. I mean, that's part

538
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: of why the Pod Saved dudes have been like they're

539
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: a mixed bag, don't get me wrong, but they've been

540
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: better at they wanted Joe Biden out, They've been better

541
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 1: in analyzing what happened then for example Joe and Mika

542
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: certainly just simply because they're in a different medium and

543
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: so that helps to create like a different perception of

544
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: the world. So, you know, I do think you'll see

545
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: a kind of splintering from Like I said, I don't

546
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 1: want to oversell it, like the New York Times and

547
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 1: the Washing and Post are still going to exist, is

548
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: going to still have some viewing audience, but when you

549
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: consider how old and how scarce their audience is already, Yeah,

550
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 1: I just don't think they're going to have the same

551
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: level of dominance that they did in terms of setting

552
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: one hundred percent of the discourse. One thing that has

553
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 1: been amusing to me though, is like the number of

554
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 1: people like Chris Murphy or whoever, who will like go

555
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: on MSNBC to talk about how they should do more

556
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 1: independent media, and it's like, you know, we do exist. Yeah, right,

557
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 1: we haven't had Rocana is still.

558
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 2: Like the only person westending with Chris for two years.

559
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,199
Speaker 1: Just so and everybody very good point, yes, very good one.

560
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 1: And it's not like, I mean, here we are with

561
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: this audience that is cross ideological and people who are

562
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: open to you know, different ideas and having their minds

563
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: changed and whatever, and we haven't had one Democrat reach

564
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: out to us and be like, you know what, let's

565
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: let's do this thing. Except for Roe. He's the only one.

566
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: He gets a lot of crowd for that. But it

567
00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: is funny to me that they're like, oh gosh, we

568
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: should do or independent media, but then they don't actually

569
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 1: do that. They just go on MSNBC to talk about

570
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: how they should do that.

571
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 2: That's right, all right. We got Talcott standing by. Let's

572
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 2: get to her. Very excited now to be joined by

573
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 2: Shelby Talcott. She's a national political reporter at Semaphore. Great

574
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:16,719
Speaker 2: friend of the show. It's good to see you, Shelby.

575
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 9: Nice to see you.

576
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 2: All right, So let's talk a little bit about what's

577
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 2: going on with the transition. Let's start with this. Let's

578
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: put this up there on the screen. We have a

579
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 2: four to three am retruth here from Donald Trump. Tom

580
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 2: Fitton of Judicial Watch. This good news reports our incoming

581
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 2: real Donald Trump administration is prepared to declare a national

582
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 2: emergency and we'll use military assets to reverse the Biden

583
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 2: invasion through a mass deportation program. He retroots and says

584
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: true at four oh three am. So are we to

585
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 2: take this as the late night or I guess early

586
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 2: mornings slash late night either or in Trump's case, musings

587
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 2: on truth Social How does this comport with your own

588
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 2: reporting down in mar A Lago talking to the transition team.

589
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 10: Yeah, well, first, I'm really excited that we're back to

590
00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 10: four am.

591
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 3: That's right tweets for the next year.

592
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 10: But yeah, Donald Trump has talked a lot about his

593
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 10: mass deportation plan, and when you talk to people close

594
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 10: to him, you know, Steven Miller has gone into depth

595
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 10: about this.

596
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 9: His borders are Tom.

597
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 10: Homan has talked a lot about this, and they all

598
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 10: sort of have the same idea, which has use every

599
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 10: single resource possible and in some cases use resources that

600
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 10: are not currently possible to implement the plans. So they've

601
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 10: talked a lot about starting with criminals and national security threats.

602
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 10: Stephen Miller has spoken at length about sort of expanding

603
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 10: some of these holding centers for undocumented migrants. Donald Trump

604
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 10: has talked about using the National Guard and local local police,

605
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 10: and so I think everything's on the table. Steven Miller's

606
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 10: talked about invoking the Insurrection Act and declaring a health emergency.

607
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 10: So there are they are thinking of essentially every single

608
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 10: option in order to to implement this. And this is

609
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 10: clearly Donald Trump's focus, because if you look at who

610
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 10: he started with when he was first deciding who was

611
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 10: going to be in his cabinet, it was all sort

612
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 10: of these national security folks the borders are. Stephen Miller

613
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 10: is his deputy chief of staff, and so you're seeing

614
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 10: that that's really the focus for the campaign.

615
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: Any sense of how many people were talking about here,

616
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: because I mean, actually estimate's very of the number of

617
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: undocumented immigrants twelve million to twenty million, somewhere in that range.

618
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: So I mean, any exercise of this scale and scope

619
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: would be absolutely massive. So any sense of how many

620
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: people they're actually thinking about here.

621
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 10: I mean when I talked to people close to Trump.

622
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 10: They say as many people as possible, and that ultimately

623
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,239
Speaker 10: depends on what they're actually able to do. Right If

624
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 10: you look at the number of ICE officers right now,

625
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 10: it's not enough, it's not even nearly enough to do

626
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 10: what they want to do. But they're hoping that they

627
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 10: can get the resources, whether it's through executive orders, it's

628
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 10: to Congress to drastically ramp up.

629
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 9: The resources that they have, which.

630
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 10: Would drastically ramp up the amount of people that they

631
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 10: could theoretically deport.

632
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 3: So do they need Congress is an important question.

633
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 9: I think it depends.

634
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 10: I think that they're hoping that they can use some

635
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 10: things with executive orders.

636
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 9: I mean I would be you.

637
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 10: Know, I've talked to people who say that they would

638
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 10: be shocked. They're very close held with their executive orders,

639
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 10: but I would be shocked if they're not executive orders

640
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 10: floating around in the Trump transition team right now that

641
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 10: directly try to address.

642
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 9: Some of this immigration.

643
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 10: But I do think that some of the things that

644
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 10: they're probably going to have to go through Congress.

645
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 2: I mean, they threw it at the wall last time.

646
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 2: They can try all they want, but we all saw

647
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 2: the court system. The Congress is ultimately the only way

648
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 2: it's possible. I mean, it's theoretically possible. That actually gets

649
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 2: to a bigger question of there is a sense that

650
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 2: Trump himself promised he said, I've learned a lot of

651
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 2: my lessons from last time around about personnel. How does that?

652
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 2: How true is that you and I were there, we

653
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 2: covered the first term, unlike a lot of people got

654
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 2: into politics now. So how different is it from the

655
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 2: last time around? How similar is it from last time around?

656
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 9: Well, he's clearly trying.

657
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 10: He's clearly appointing people that he believes are loyalists. What

658
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 10: I think is interesting, though, is some of these folks,

659
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 10: you know, you still have all of these different factions

660
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 10: inside Trump world who are vying for different people. Some

661
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 10: of those people are are maybe not the best choice

662
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 10: for Trump, but the best choice for people around Trump,

663
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 10: you know. I thought it was interesting that Donald Trump

664
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 10: tapped Will sharf, which is his personal or his lawyer

665
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 10: over the past two years, for the staff secretary position

666
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 10: because Will Sharfs is Leonard Leo's prodigy, and Leonard Leo

667
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 10: obviously had a falling out with Donald Trump years ago

668
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 10: and is super influential in conservative orbits, and this potentially

669
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 10: could be sort of Leonard Leo's way into the administration.

670
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 10: He is sort of a donor, longtime federalist guy.

671
00:32:58,840 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 7: You know.

672
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 9: He was involved in some of the in some of

673
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 9: Donald Trump's.

674
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 10: Judges picks back in the day, but they had a

675
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 10: falling out. They are not close anymore. He's been iced

676
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 10: out of the Trump campaign, but he's super, super close

677
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 10: with Will Sharf, and so I think that is notable.

678
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 10: So you have people like that in Trump's orbit now

679
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 10: who have already been tapped. I think it's going to

680
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 10: be really interesting to see, for example, if they get confirmed,

681
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 10: how Marco Rubio and Tulci Gabbard work together because they

682
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 10: are very different. And so I think Trump is trying

683
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 10: to pick loyalists, but it is such a he has

684
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 10: four thousand positions.

685
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 9: To a point, are all of them going.

686
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 10: To truly be loyalists or are we going to see

687
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 10: something like twenty sixteen where some people have different opinions

688
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 10: and there's going to be drama.

689
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: Tell me more about the Elon Musk relationship romance, etc.

690
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: We talked some yesterday about this, but there's a sense

691
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: that Elon with some members of the transition team has

692
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: sort of worn out, has welcome. We also see publicly

693
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: him fraezing Javier of Ballet for getting rid of tariffs

694
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: is the whole opposite of the direction.

695
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 3: Trump obviously once ago.

696
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: And we also see him backing his own pick for

697
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: Treasury Secretary, which would also you if I think if

698
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 1: the cap from anyone else would probably rub Trump the

699
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: wrong way. You know, what can you tell us about

700
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: those dynamics within the transition team.

701
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 10: I mean, I know Donald Trump has said sort of

702
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 10: joked multiple times now that you know he's still around,

703
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 10: He's still here, can't get him out of mar A Lago,

704
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 10: and I think that's true. Taking pictures with the family

705
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 10: and literally with the family, and I think that's true.

706
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 10: I mean, he's hanging around mar A Lago every week.

707
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 10: But I think they're still in that romance stage from mine.

708
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 10: You know, I think Donald Trump sort of is fascinated

709
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 10: by Elon Musk. Elon Musk spent two hundred million dollars

710
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 10: to help get Donald Trump elected. You know, some people

711
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,720
Speaker 10: in Trump's orbit are a little miffed that Elon Musk

712
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 10: is so close. He's sitting in on transition meetings. He's

713
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 10: weighing in privately and publicly on who he thinks Donald

714
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 10: Trump should pick. But you know, Trump loves to an

715
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 10: extent people who love him and people who are sort

716
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 10: of fan boying, and I think right now that's how

717
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 10: he is viewing Elon Muss.

718
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, to have the richest man in the world as

719
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 1: your fanboy, I'm sure that's pretty potent stuff.

720
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's going to he's going to a starship thing today. Yeah,

721
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 2: he's going to the launch of a space They were at.

722
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 9: The UFC fight together.

723
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's put this up there on the screen. One

724
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 2: of your latest reports here about the Trump transition co

725
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 2: chairs are both in limbo on cabinet jobs. So this

726
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 2: includes the counter Fitzgerald CEO, Howard Lutnick, and also Linda McMahon,

727
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 2: who was what was she small business under Donald Trump

728
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 2: last time around? So what's going on, you know inside

729
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 2: this treasury fight. I've been fascinated by it. Originally at

730
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 2: Scott Bessen and Howard Lutnik there, Elon endorses Howard. Now

731
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 2: neither of them appear to be in contention, mostly because

732
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 2: Trump is pissed that what people are leaking against each

733
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 2: other hilarious with Linda McMahon too. I mean she I mean,

734
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:00,360
Speaker 2: she didn't give two hundred million, but she gave a

735
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,879
Speaker 2: decent amount of money there to Donald Trump. So what's

736
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 2: up with those two and what position, like are they

737
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:07,839
Speaker 2: jocking for and are they likely to get now?

738
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 10: So, Linda internally for months has made it clear that

739
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 10: she wants Commerce, and for months it's been pretty clear

740
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 10: that she is the only clear contender for Commerce, but

741
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 10: she has not yet been offered the position, and I've

742
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,280
Speaker 10: been told by a few people that she's pissed about it. Interesting,

743
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 10: and one of the reasons that people are theorizing that

744
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 10: she has not gone the position is because Donald Trump

745
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 10: is essentially waiting to see if he needs to use

746
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 10: that Commerce position as sort of a holdover from a

747
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 10: more important spot, Say, if Besson doesn't get Treasury, maybe

748
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 10: they'll drop him down to Commerce. And as for the Treasury,

749
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,879
Speaker 10: it is there's drama there. So we're seeing Howard and

750
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 10: Scott as the two front runners for a while now, well,

751
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 10: Scott was really the core front runner, and then Howard

752
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 10: started sort of buying for the position himself. And it's

753
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,240
Speaker 10: gotten to the point where Donald Trump is really annoyed

754
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 10: by the public job. You know, with Donald Trump, I

755
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 10: think it's really interesting because as much as he loves

756
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,919
Speaker 10: a little bit of the drama and he loves sort

757
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 10: of you know, in the case of Elon Musk, somebody

758
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 10: who fanboys around him, he also hates when somebody is

759
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 10: too aggressive and trying to.

760
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:17,720
Speaker 9: Get into his orbit.

761
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 10: And you know, I've been told in the case of

762
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 10: Howard that that has certainly happened.

763
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 2: And well, he put himself after j d Vance at MSG.

764
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 2: It's like, who are you your transition Chai, why are

765
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,879
Speaker 2: you speaking before Donald Trump? Yeah, he's introducing Elon Muckle.

766
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 2: He made himself a central character, I guess throughout this

767
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 2: entire thing. So throughout this you know, it's only been

768
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 2: what fifteen days or something like that. Over the transition

769
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 2: a lot we talked about Elon and the drama, but

770
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 2: those other factions, like you're talking about is it your

771
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 2: sense similarly of like different ideological coalitions are coming at

772
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 2: war and ultimately what sways Trump? This is like the

773
00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: eternal question, what does what is the reasoning behind his decision?

774
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 2: Because for every mac Gates you also get a Marco Rubio, right,

775
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 2: Like what's going on behind that.

776
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 10: It's a good question because I think, you know, Donald

777
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 10: Trump's first and foremost concern, as he said, is loyalty,

778
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 10: but he also has all of these factions vying for him.

779
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,760
Speaker 10: Treasury is interesting because I feel like it's mostly sort

780
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,280
Speaker 10: of a lot of people support Scott, and then there's

781
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 10: sort of Howard, who had spent months trying to convince

782
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:25,800
Speaker 10: Elon Musk to publicly come.

783
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 3: Out for him, which he ended up doing.

784
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 10: So it's sort of like Howard and Elon, So that's

785
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 10: kind of a unique situation. I also think that when

786
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 10: it comes to some of these, you know, Treasury, Commerce,

787
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 10: some of these more economy focused jobs, it's less about

788
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 10: almost loyalty right when you talk compared to okay, we

789
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 10: need someone who's going to implement Donald Trump's mass deportation plan,

790
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 10: Like that's like top of the list for Donald Trump.

791
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,839
Speaker 10: Commerce is he doesn't care about it as now. So

792
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 10: I think that there's all It depends on the position essentially, right,

793
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 10: So you have Kennedy, you had Omead Malik, who is

794
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 10: a big donor who has been in his corner for

795
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 10: a long time. You had Talker, you had all of

796
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 10: these folks vying for Kennedy for HHS.

797
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 9: There's less of that sort.

798
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 10: Of overt camps when it comes to Treasury.

799
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 1: Gotcha, And how does Jadie Vance fit into all of this.

800
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 1: I noticed he wasn't at the UFC fight, he wasn't

801
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: at the RFK Junior McDonald's hostage photo taking session. And

802
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,399
Speaker 1: I don't hear him brought up much in terms of, like,

803
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 1: you know, being part of these factions, are part of

804
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 1: these internal conversations.

805
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 10: Yeah, Vance has sort of been pretty quiet over the

806
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 10: past few weeks, and I think that's by design. I

807
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 10: think he's more involved in things that involve Congress. You know,

808
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:52,319
Speaker 10: he is having conversations with lawmakers. I think that's going

809
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 10: to be one of his key roles as vice president

810
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 10: because he was just in Congress and he's so close

811
00:39:58,239 --> 00:39:59,919
Speaker 10: to some of those folks, and so I think he's

812
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 10: working on sort of cultivating and making those relationships behind

813
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,720
Speaker 10: the scenes rather than being sort of a forward facing

814
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,760
Speaker 10: role sitting in on every single decision.

815
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 9: He also has three young kids, right.

816
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,839
Speaker 10: So he's still back and forth from Ohio. So he's

817
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,800
Speaker 10: certainly involved in these decisions, but it's much less of

818
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 10: a forward facing role, and I think that's why to sign.

819
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 2: That's smart? All right, Well, Shelby, we always love talking

820
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 2: to you. Thank you for joining us.

821
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 3: Great thure you, Shelby, Thanks for having me.

822
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: All right, guys, we have a very special treat for

823
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: everyone out there in the world. Producer Griffin is joining

824
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 1: us live to have a big fight with Sager about

825
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,919
Speaker 1: Ben Afflex comments on Ai Griffin, thank you very much.

826
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 1: We actually just tagged you in this morning because I

827
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: felt you were more competent to make this case than

828
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: I was, So thank you.

829
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 11: Yeah, me and Sager normally fight before the shows, so

830
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 11: it's good to do it on camera.

831
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 2: That's right, to see behind the scenes. And if Griffin

832
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 2: is not just some random dude, he literally is a

833
00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 2: former NYU film student. He lived in Hollywood, he worked

834
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,839
Speaker 2: on multiple movies. He's literally a film prodigy who at

835
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 2: the age what was it, twenty years old, you had

836
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 2: a movie that went to Sunband. So he's not just somebody.

837
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 2: He's actually that's right, he knows what he's talking about.

838
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

839
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 11: Most importantly, a member of the Ben Affleck fan clubs

840
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 11: in the town over ten times, right, and I'm a

841
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,240
Speaker 11: dunkin Donuts rewards member.

842
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 8: All right, So that's with love for afflic amazing.

843
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 3: Amazing, all right, let's start.

844
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 1: Let's go ahead and get to the comments in question

845
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: from mister Affleck that sparked this whole debate.

846
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 3: Let's take a listen, a.

847
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 5: Bunch of actors that are completely recreated for this market

848
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:33,240
Speaker 5: or that market.

849
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 12: A that's not possible now be Will it be possible

850
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 12: in the future, highly unlikely see movies. That will be

851
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 12: one of the last things if everything gets replaced, to

852
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 12: be replaced by AI. AI can write you excellent imitative

853
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 12: verse that sounds a little Beethan, It cannot write you Shakespeare.

854
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 12: The function of having two actors or three or four

855
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 12: actors in a room and the taste to discern and

856
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 12: construct that is something that currently entirely eludes AI's capability,

857
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 12: and I think will for a meaningful period of time.

858
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,320
Speaker 12: What A is going to do is going to disintermediate

859
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:11,280
Speaker 12: the more laborious, less creative, and you know, more costly

860
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 12: aspects of filmmaking. That will allow costs to be brought down,

861
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 12: that will be lower the barrier to entry, that will

862
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 12: allow more voices to be heard, That will make it

863
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 12: easier to for the people want to make good will

864
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 12: huntings to go out and make it look. AI is

865
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 12: a craftsman.

866
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 8: At best.

867
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,919
Speaker 12: Craftsmen can learn to, you know, make stickley furniture by

868
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 12: sitting down next to somebody and seeing what their technique

869
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 12: is and imitating. That's how large video models are as

870
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 12: language models basically work a library of vectors of meaning

871
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 12: and transformers that interpret context. Right, but they're just cross

872
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 12: pollinating things that exist. Nothing new is created yet not yet, yeah,

873
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 12: not yet. And really in order to do that, look,

874
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 12: craftsmen is knowing how to work. Art is knowing when

875
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 12: to stop, and I think knowing when to stop is

876
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 12: going to be a very difficult thing for AI to

877
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 12: learn because it's taste and also lack of consistency, lack

878
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 12: of controls, lack of quality. AI for this world of

879
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 12: generative video is going to do key things more in me,

880
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,360
Speaker 12: I wouldn't like to be in the visual effects business.

881
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 8: They're in trouble.

882
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: Griffin ben Affleck basically arguing there that AI in Hollywood

883
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,800
Speaker 1: will be a benefit. It will lower costs, allow a

884
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: sort of creative flourishing.

885
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 3: What say you?

886
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,720
Speaker 11: So it's complicated because he's he's right and he's wrong.

887
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 11: I think that he is certainly overlooking the fact that

888
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 11: like he's like, oh, if you're in the visual effects business,

889
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 11: you're in trouble. But if you're in like the majority

890
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 11: of the below line industry businesses, you're in trouble. Whether

891
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 11: it's like being an editor, a sound mixer, the background extras.

892
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 11: Even some of like the foreground actors are getting their

893
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 11: likenesses stolen right now and repurposed for AI and their

894
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 11: testing right now, mainly in like.

895
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 8: Commercials and stuff.

896
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 11: I do think he right in certain areas where it's like, oh,

897
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 11: it's gonna give more freedom to individuals to create bigger

898
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 11: things than they could on their own if someone wanted

899
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 11: to create a good will hunting. But I think the

900
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,840
Speaker 11: big elephant in the room he's forgetting is none of

901
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:19,800
Speaker 11: this is happening to improve art or give people more opportunities.

902
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 11: It's for executives to make a few more million while

903
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 11: they slash tens and thousands of film industry jobs over

904
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 11: the next like ten to fifteen years. And they're gonna

905
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 11: do it before the art is good or if it

906
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,760
Speaker 11: ever gets good. They're gonna do it now in survey slot.

907
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 2: So I understand what you're saying, Griffin. I think that

908
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 2: the counter is that this is technology. I mean one

909
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 2: of the examples that he gives, for example, is that

910
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 2: TAOSA the Dragon won't take two years. You can have

911
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 2: a new season that will come out, but the scripts

912
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:47,839
Speaker 2: and all of that will remain creative. And I get

913
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, if it work in the visual effects business,

914
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 2: that sucks. But reducing you know, the economy of scale

915
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,959
Speaker 2: and making it so that the technology is easier could

916
00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 2: actually create more opportunities first and foremost, But second, this

917
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 2: is a technological inevitability. Like in the nineteen eighties, the

918
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 2: CGI effects and all that were terrible. They were very costly. Eventually,

919
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 2: as they go down, then you were actually able to

920
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 2: create a lot of new content, new roles and all

921
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 2: that are there. That doesn't mean I'm not sympathetic to

922
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 2: a lot of the people who were what was it

923
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 2: like Disney animation, right, A lot of it was hand drawn,

924
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 2: and then the pixtar revolution comes in and changes all

925
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 2: of that. We still got great movies. Now, unfortunately, it

926
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 2: did mean that thousands of people didn't have to sit

927
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 2: there and hand draw, but that was you know, physically,

928
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 2: it was very inefficient. So I didn't have a real

929
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 2: problem with what he said, because what you were telling

930
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 2: me is that a lot of people in Hollywood are

931
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 2: very angry at him. But you know, in a certain sense,

932
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 2: it's like you're angry at technology. You're going to choose ultimately,

933
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 2: what is going to be the cheapest option. I thought

934
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:44,879
Speaker 2: it was a very insightful answer because what it does

935
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 2: show is that while the technology and the craft and

936
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 2: the inputs themselves will reduce that the actual creative inputs

937
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 2: and what makes Hollywood and movies and content really so

938
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 2: fantastic that actually can't be programmed. So in a certain sense,

939
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 2: I didn't think he was an AI doomer. I thought

940
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 2: that was a real optimistic way of how AI is

941
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 2: just physically a tool. Nothing is ever going to come

942
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 2: and replace us.

943
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 8: So two points to there.

944
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 11: So with like the let's focus just on the video

945
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,320
Speaker 11: effects just for a second. So I use this example

946
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 11: a lot like of like the Marvel slob. Like Marvel

947
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 11: movies continue to get worse and worse, but like technology

948
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 11: is like getting better, but we continue to like funnel

949
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 11: down to like the lowest common denominator because it's more

950
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 11: money for the film executives. I use the example of

951
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 11: Pirates of the Caribbean two Dead Man's Chest. Yeah, this

952
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 11: is a very popular example online, an incredible film. There's

953
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,320
Speaker 11: a scene in the CGI of that so two thousand

954
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 11: and six film of Davy Jones. He's an octopus man

955
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 11: and he's playing the piano with his tentacles, and it

956
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,320
Speaker 11: was twenty years ago and it looks better than any

957
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 11: CGI you see today, which I think is an example

958
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 11: of well, yeah, technology can improve, but executives aren't using

959
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 11: it to make better art.

960
00:46:57,600 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 8: They're using it to make more money.

961
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 11: Now to your point about like, oh, individual creators can

962
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 11: then like go and like make good will hunting, and

963
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,840
Speaker 11: a director is can be untethered from the production costs

964
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 11: and on all that stuff.

965
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 8: And I do see that example.

966
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 11: But for me, it's like a lot of people think,

967
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 11: like the director can like make the whole movie, but

968
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:23,280
Speaker 11: like a Martin Scorsese movie is good not just because

969
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 11: Scorsese is good, but because he is as the director

970
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 11: is channeling the talents, the experiences and the art from

971
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:34,439
Speaker 11: real humans. All these people on set. Should I frame

972
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 11: the camera this way? Should we dolly it? Should we

973
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 11: like these people? How are we doing their hair and makeup?

974
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 11: These aren't all decisions just coming from Martin Scorsese's brain.

975
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 11: He's channeling other people's like art and creativity. And I

976
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 11: don't think we're gonna see that with AI systems in

977
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:50,240
Speaker 11: the same way.

978
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 2: But I see that's actually a good example where Scorsese.

979
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 2: The reason that Scorsese movies are great is because Scarsese

980
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 2: does things his way Tarantino same way in terms of

981
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 2: his rejection, and wants to do a lot of this

982
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 2: stuff in real time. One is one of the reasons

983
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 2: that Tom Cruise movies are so fantastic because he insists

984
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 2: on doing the stunts himself and making it as real

985
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:08,919
Speaker 2: as possible. That's what makes them outliers and what makes

986
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 2: them fantastic. So great script, great acting, great visual effects.

987
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:15,240
Speaker 2: While yes, there's still gonna be a lot of Hollywood slop.

988
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 2: I mean, I personally swore a blood oath that I

989
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 2: was done with Marvel after ant Man in the Wasp,

990
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 2: and I just said I'm done. I'm done, you know.

991
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 2: And it's like I saw Shang Shi. I came to

992
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 2: a turn. I stuck with them. I stuck with them

993
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 2: through Wanda Vision, through all the Finally I just said

994
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 2: it's over. But it's one of those though, where they

995
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 2: did pay a cost, right, you know, they had diminishing returns.

996
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 2: While they certainly did make some money on those movies,

997
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,760
Speaker 2: their cultural cachet and Marvel Universe, et cetera is going downhill,

998
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 2: whereas we've had major success of a lot of the

999
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 2: films that you're talking about that bring the individual filmmakers taste.

1000
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 2: So it will just be like a technological standard. But

1001
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 2: you know, what makes great films great films and the

1002
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 2: ability of people like Ridley Scott or any of these

1003
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 2: others to have some visual effects but ultimately rely on

1004
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 2: the genius of their directing the human humanity, and also

1005
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 2: be able to compel studio funding, which is really what

1006
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 2: they were best at. They can get big budget films

1007
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 2: and direct it towards these resources. I still feel like

1008
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 2: that niche will always exist in Hollywood. It's just like

1009
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 2: the example he gave about House of the Dragon. That

1010
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 2: seems like the most apt one. And again I get it,

1011
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 2: if you work in visual effects, that probably sucks. But

1012
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:25,880
Speaker 2: you know, if you worked as a i don't know,

1013
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 2: like a boom guy in the nineteen eighties and your

1014
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 2: job eventually phased out, that's a little bit nature of

1015
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 2: the business too.

1016
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 11: Yeah, but with House of the Dragon, like, it's not

1017
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 11: going to just be the video effects. It's gonna be

1018
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 11: the scripts. It's gonna be like the majority of the

1019
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,839
Speaker 11: actors on screen. It's gonna be even like they're gonna

1020
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 11: start face tuning people, so you don't need hair and makeup.

1021
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 11: You're gonna need like all these all these different things

1022
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 11: that aren't just a cost but are a creative input

1023
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,359
Speaker 11: that makes something that's unique, that actually is art that

1024
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 11: touches the heart.

1025
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 8: I use the Netflix slop example a lot.

1026
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 11: If you go on Netflix right now, Netflix to cut costs,

1027
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 11: has completely homogeno how they make film. That's why, like

1028
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 11: every film you see on Netflix is called like tall Girl,

1029
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 11: and they're all shot with the same camera and the

1030
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 11: same bland look. Everyone talks about that. Why things like

1031
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:15,240
Speaker 11: gray worm Meal, It's because it's cheaper. It's because it's cheaper.

1032
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 11: It's not because it's better are or because the director's

1033
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:21,280
Speaker 11: got to express themselves more. It's because it's more homogenized.

1034
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:24,319
Speaker 1: Well, you know, another example of that Griffin I think

1035
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 1: is YouTube shorts. I banned my kids from watching them

1036
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 1: at all because.

1037
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:32,320
Speaker 3: You're all they are I'm.

1038
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 1: Not a great parent, but this one thing I did

1039
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 1: take a stand because.

1040
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 3: All they are is AI slop.

1041
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: That's it, because that's what the economics makes sense for.

1042
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:44,319
Speaker 1: So even if only one out of one hundred like

1043
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 1: takes off or whatever, because they're all so shitty and

1044
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 1: so low quality, they cost nothing. So that seems to

1045
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 1: me the direction that this is ultimately going to go in.

1046
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 1: And I also question the idea the promise of like, oh,

1047
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:00,360
Speaker 1: now more independent creators, it'll be lower costs, et cetera.

1048
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 1: Using AI will be low costs for major studios because

1049
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: they have the technology suite and the licenses. Because AI

1050
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 1: is already like a monopolistic business, so they'll have that

1051
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 1: technology suite, they'll.

1052
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,399
Speaker 3: Have the resources to do all the things that you're

1053
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 3: talking about.

1054
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 1: Inependent filmmakers are not going to have access to that

1055
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 1: level of technological case.

1056
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:25,240
Speaker 11: That's a really interesting point. Yeah, that's a really interesting point.

1057
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:29,959
Speaker 11: And let's let's even say they do okay, Like let's

1058
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:32,799
Speaker 11: say there's a program that you can sign up for

1059
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 11: that's thirty bucks a month subscription fee and you can

1060
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 11: make a whole world and like design everything. Why would

1061
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 11: any studio need to buy it from you or distribute it.

1062
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 11: When they can just do it themselves. It's like, great,

1063
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:46,839
Speaker 11: throw it up on YouTube and it gets fifty views.

1064
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 11: We're going to just make the exact same thing and

1065
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 11: not pay you because we don't need you, because everyone

1066
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 11: can do this now.

1067
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 8: So there's that element too.

1068
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 11: I do want to like, I want to give a

1069
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:57,919
Speaker 11: little bit of like a Devil's Advocate to something Ben says,

1070
00:51:57,920 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 11: where like anyone can make good will hunting As an

1071
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:03,400
Speaker 11: ende filmmaker. One of the things that has triggered me

1072
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 11: most over my career is a lot of articles saying wow,

1073
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 11: with technology, like anyone can make a movie now, you

1074
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 11: can make a movie on an iPhone.

1075
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 8: That's bullshit, that's not true.

1076
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:17,759
Speaker 11: You can shoot it on the iPhone, but then you're

1077
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 11: gonna to spend one hundred grand from somewhere to sound

1078
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 11: mix it, get it ready for a theater, do all

1079
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 11: that post. So like, there are all these costs that

1080
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:29,720
Speaker 11: make it so only rich kids really make independent film.

1081
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 11: When I produced indie film, it was never because someone

1082
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 11: had a good idea. It was because I knew a

1083
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:36,839
Speaker 11: rich kid whose mommy and daddy were willing to give

1084
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 11: them a quarter million dollars to like go shoot a film.

1085
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 11: So I think there is something there to like democratizing

1086
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:48,239
Speaker 11: certain parts of it, But I don't think that that's

1087
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 11: what the executives are doing. I don't think that that's

1088
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 11: how they're going to try to control the system of

1089
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 11: delivery with all of it, and ultimately, I think it's

1090
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 11: gonna continue to just like homogenize art and creativity. I

1091
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:02,799
Speaker 11: think most of the movies that Sager loves were not

1092
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 11: made with any AI, and I would be surprised if,

1093
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 11: like ten years later, Sager's favorite movies are the AI

1094
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 11: ones versus the great films we've seen.

1095
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 2: You're not wrong with right, You're absolutely not wrong. But

1096
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 2: here's the sad part that Netflix slop. It exists for

1097
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:19,839
Speaker 2: a reason. People watch it, they like it. I mean,

1098
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 2: let's put this up on the screen from the Atlantic.

1099
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 2: There's no longer any doubt that Hollywood writing is powering AI.

1100
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,280
Speaker 2: They talk specifically here about how what Was It? Eighty

1101
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 2: five thousand TV episodes and fifty three thousand other movies

1102
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 2: were used by AI systems to be trained on writer's work,

1103
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 2: to be able to fill in certain things including you know,

1104
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 2: every film nominated for Best Picture from nineteen fifty to

1105
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen, The Simpsons, every episode of The Wire, The Sopranos,

1106
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:51,240
Speaker 2: Breaking Bad. Do I ever think that, you know, AI

1107
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 2: will be able to produce any of those shows or

1108
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,799
Speaker 2: even incredible movies that I just listed. No, but you

1109
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 2: know there's a lot of people out there, unfortunately, Griffin

1110
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:01,760
Speaker 2: who like outer I couldn't tell you what Outer Banks

1111
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 2: is about. I honestly I couldn't tell you. If I

1112
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 2: looked at the Netflix top ten TV shows right now,

1113
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:11,719
Speaker 2: it is just straight shit, like every single one of them.

1114
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,440
Speaker 2: But they're top ten and they get hundreds of hours.

1115
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 2: If I recall, what was that movie with the Rock

1116
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 2: on Netflix? Was it Red? Notice that? I mean, you know,

1117
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 2: that was a huge movie. People liked it. They actually

1118
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:24,319
Speaker 2: liked it. I hate to say it. Hit Man. There's

1119
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:25,840
Speaker 2: another one. I didn't watch hit Man, but I know

1120
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 2: that was a big one. There was a Gramination Okay,

1121
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 2: gray Man? Is that Ryan Gosling?

1122
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 8: But I don't think any of those films are made

1123
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:34,840
Speaker 8: with a humans. That's why you like that?

1124
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 2: Well, what I'm giving an example is that just generic

1125
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:41,279
Speaker 2: replacement level film and TV on Netflix. People enjoy it.

1126
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 2: You know, even those crappy, fake animated series that they

1127
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 2: do for children, which look horrible, but they're always like

1128
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 2: number six, you know Number eight. You and I are

1129
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,960
Speaker 2: always going to be on HBO watching prestige television, but

1130
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:57,799
Speaker 2: there's not a big market for it unfortunately.

1131
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean I do. I do think you're right.

1132
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 11: I think it's a question of like, how do we

1133
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 11: continue to protect art and if we value art, how

1134
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 11: do we protect it. That should be like the main

1135
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:13,759
Speaker 11: goal of people like Ben Affleck talking about this, not

1136
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 11: like all the fun things that you can do in

1137
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 11: the future with AI, but like how do we like

1138
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:22,799
Speaker 11: protect and keep on making creative pictures that require humans

1139
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:27,320
Speaker 11: in my opinion, as opposed to just kind of letting

1140
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 11: things fly and seeing where things.

1141
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:30,800
Speaker 8: Go next because most of the stuff is slop.

1142
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,319
Speaker 11: You're right, A lot of people watch it, and I

1143
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 11: think that the industry right now is kind of in

1144
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:39,720
Speaker 11: a big evolution right now.

1145
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 8: You know, everyone went big into streaming.

1146
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 11: There was so much slop, and even back in the day,

1147
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 11: like if you turn on cable, ninety percent of the

1148
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 11: shows were bad. Yeah remember the ten percent good ones, right,

1149
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 11: But like, ultimately, I think if you're a lover of film,

1150
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 11: if you're a lover of art, all of this AI

1151
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 11: stuff and the things that drive what they're developing it

1152
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 11: for it seems to be anti RT and pro slop.

1153
00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 11: And I think that people like Affleck need to kind

1154
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:10,280
Speaker 11: of do everything they can with their cachet of power

1155
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 11: to prevent that as long as possible.

1156
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, to me, there's a vibe from Affleck

1157
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 1: of like, well, I'm going to be fine, Yeah, buddies,

1158
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:22,799
Speaker 1: yeah you Wood, But how about the rest? The other

1159
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 1: thing that to me gets to the core that the

1160
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 1: disagreement that you guys are having is, you know, to me,

1161
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:34,400
Speaker 1: art should have value outside of the ability to commodify it,

1162
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 1: outside of just like the market dynamics and the move

1163
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 1: towards more and more AI and more and more slop

1164
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 1: undercuts art and just makes it about the like you know,

1165
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:51,840
Speaker 1: capitalist market incentives. And I think that that is a loss.

1166
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:54,360
Speaker 1: I think that's a loss for the country, for the culture,

1167
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:57,920
Speaker 1: et cetera. That as you said, Griffin, it's pro slop

1168
00:56:57,920 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 1: and anti art.

1169
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 2: Well, I like it. Can we all agree we need

1170
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 2: a town to Griffin, Do we need to see?

1171
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 11: Yes, we need a town to a chat GPT township

1172
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:11,799
Speaker 11: right here it's great, the town is misspelled and Ben

1173
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:13,279
Speaker 11: Affleck has three eyes, but.

1174
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 8: It's you're gonna love it people. Yeah, we're gonna make money.

1175
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 8: We're making money, folks.

1176
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 11: And the biggest question, here's the thing, executives, if you're listening,

1177
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 11: who's gonna wait all the tables in l A if

1178
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 11: you fire up?

1179
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 8: That's the big question.

1180
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 3: Robots.

1181
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 2: Also, there's a big underground mark. That's right. You're gonna

1182
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 2: wipe out the entire service industry in Los Angeles.

1183
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 11: Come on, I don't have any fresh towels and my

1184
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 11: Chateau More Hotel right now, they're.

1185
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 3: Gonna live to regret it.

1186
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:39,680
Speaker 2: That's right. Love it.