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Speaker 1: If you vary up what they're doing and you can

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Speaker 1: give them a sampling period, there's a lot better chances

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Speaker 1: they find something one that matches their interests and to

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Speaker 1: the matches their abilities. This is what so called match quality.

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Speaker 1: Finding activities to fit your interests and abilities. It's really

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Speaker 1: important for performance, for persistence, for sensible filment, all these things,

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Speaker 1: and for kids. I think those are the things that

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Speaker 1: we should be looking at. This is the Reformed Sports Project,

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Speaker 1: a podcast about restoring healthy balance and perspective in all

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Speaker 1: areas of sports through education and advocacy. Hi, this is

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Speaker 1: Nick Bonacoort from the Reformed Sports Project podcast. Joining me

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Speaker 1: today is David Epstein, author of the number one New

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Speaker 1: York Times bestseller Range Wide, Generalist, Triumph in a Specialized World,

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Speaker 1: and The Sports Gene. He's an investigative journalist and well

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Speaker 1: respected writer. David and I get into a host of topics,

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Speaker 1: like early commitments, his relationship with Malcolm Gladwell, over use, injuries,

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Speaker 1: and mental health. I feel very humbled. I feel very excited.

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Speaker 1: I also feel a little less intelligent right now because

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Speaker 1: I have someone on the horn who's definitely smarter than I.

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Speaker 1: Am um really pumped to having the author of the

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Speaker 1: Sports Gene, the author Arranged, and just you know, a

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Speaker 1: ton of other things you guys have stud David Epstein,

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Speaker 1: Dave Man, thanks for hopping on. Hey, it's my pleasure.

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Speaker 1: And I disagree about your smartness comment all that's kind

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Speaker 1: of compliment or just that I take forever to get

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Speaker 1: my work done and when you do that, you kind

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Speaker 1: of end up looking a little smarter. I think very

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Speaker 1: I fly by the seat of my pants. I appreciate that.

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Speaker 1: That's awesome. I um, I'm grateful to have you on. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, we built a good relationship over the last

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Speaker 1: year and a half or so. I love your work

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Speaker 1: and uh, you know, definitely our audience is a big

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Speaker 1: fan as well. So you know where I'd love to

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Speaker 1: start here is obviously you're the author of the Sports

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Speaker 1: Gene and Ranged, two books that get talked about a lot.

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Speaker 1: And I want to start with this because you know,

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Speaker 1: I know that you went live with you know, Malcolm Gladwell,

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Speaker 1: and you and him have a relationship. And I will say,

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Speaker 1: the book Outliers gets brought up a lot. It gets

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Speaker 1: brought up a lot, especially around you know, I'm a

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Speaker 1: former baseball player and you know, people talk about outliers,

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Speaker 1: I talk about you got to follow this. You know,

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Speaker 1: everyone everyone's selling the idea. I'm just gonna say this,

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Speaker 1: the idea that specialization and early in particular is the route.

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Speaker 1: You kind of have a different viewpoint of that. Can

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Speaker 1: you talk about your perspective, your experience with range sports

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Speaker 1: you and how that kind of I don't want to

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Speaker 1: say defuncts but kind of goes in another way versus

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Speaker 1: the rule. Yeah, I mean, and I should say I

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Speaker 1: was inclined to think that, you know, the early specialization

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Speaker 1: route made sense a long time ago too. But then

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Speaker 1: I became the science writers Sports Illustrated, and one of

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Speaker 1: my jobs was evaluating you know, the most famous work

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Speaker 1: in our area, which was the Ten Hours Thinking, And

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Speaker 1: I started looking at what the research had to say

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Speaker 1: about it and saw that in a whole bunch of

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Speaker 1: different sports all over the world, studies that actually followed athletes,

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Speaker 1: you know, tracked them from youth to adulthood, would see

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Speaker 1: that those who became elite usually had what scientists called

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Speaker 1: a sampling period where they would do a variety of

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Speaker 1: different physical activities, you know, sometimes that with multiple sports.

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Speaker 1: Other times it was just varying their physical activity. It

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Speaker 1: could be martial arts, climbing, dancing, whatever, with a good

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Speaker 1: degree of sort of lightly structured or unstructured activity mixed in.

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Speaker 1: So they would gain these general physical skills, you know

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Speaker 1: what researchers and study that sometimes called physical literacy. They

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Speaker 1: would learn about their interests and abilities and actually delay

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Speaker 1: specializing until later than peers of plateaued at lower levels.

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Speaker 1: They end up with higher level of performance, you know.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes they sacrifice winning the ten year old championships or

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Speaker 1: whatever for long term development. They have higher levels of

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Speaker 1: eventual performance, a lot less physical and psychological burnout. And

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Speaker 1: so seeing this over and over and over and over

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Speaker 1: in the literature, I said, Cash, you know, something is

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Speaker 1: wrong with the public perception of this ten thousand hours rule.

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Speaker 1: There's a problem. I got flash bulbs going off in

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Speaker 1: my head. And and here's the problem. And you're a parent,

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Speaker 1: now congratulations, I think you're yeah, yeah, it's awesome. I

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Speaker 1: will say, though, the problem is this, and I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: stick with baseball here. There's a big debate about you know,

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Speaker 1: you turn on social media and there's eighth graders being

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Speaker 1: offered in baseball, you know, and they're committing you know,

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Speaker 1: eighth graders, um so people, and it's becoming more and

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Speaker 1: more prevalent. And John O'Sullivan changing the grain project shout out.

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Speaker 1: He and I kind of both stole your line apparently

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Speaker 1: he told me the other day he stole it from

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Speaker 1: you too, about the race to the head start. But

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Speaker 1: that's exactly what like this business model of youth sports

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Speaker 1: is doing, right, So so how do you apparent to

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Speaker 1: that man? How do you coach to that? I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's tricky, right, because the thing is so much of

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Speaker 1: this doesn't have to do with the best development for

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Speaker 1: the kids, right. I mean when I don't live in

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Speaker 1: New York right now, but last time I did, there

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Speaker 1: was a U seven travel soccer team that met across

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Speaker 1: the street from me. I don't think there's a person

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Speaker 1: in the world who thinks that six year olds have

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Speaker 1: to travel in the city of nine million people to

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Speaker 1: get good enough competition. You know, that's not about their development,

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Speaker 1: that's about their customers for for an adult league, And

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Speaker 1: there's so much pressure and emphasis on it, money involved

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Speaker 1: in all those things, whereas the research about what the

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Speaker 1: best development is goes exactly the opposite, Like there was

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Speaker 1: just by the way a few months ago, probably the

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Speaker 1: best study of its kind, like this development of six

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Speaker 1: thousand athletes, and the title of which a speaks for itself.

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Speaker 1: What makes a champion? Early multi disciplinary practice, not early specialization,

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Speaker 1: predicts world class performance. So the research couldn't be more clear.

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Speaker 1: But that's like that idea that sometimes doing you know,

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Speaker 1: getting a head start can actually undermine long term development.

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Speaker 1: That's really hard to get your head around as a parent.

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Speaker 1: And it's tough because I don't think as a parent.

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Speaker 1: You know, sometimes when I get asked my parents say, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to specialize my kid too early. I

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Speaker 1: want to follow the evidence. But then you know, they

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Speaker 1: can't participate in our local leagues. And you can't just

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Speaker 1: tell a parent like hey, go rogue. You know, you're

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Speaker 1: a part of the society you live in, so so

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Speaker 1: it's hard to step outside of that. Now some countries

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Speaker 1: have taken it upon themselves, I think, to do a

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Speaker 1: better job as a society, like Norway, which is in

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Speaker 1: the last Winter Olympics they topped the medal table. This

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Speaker 1: is a country of five million people. Lass Summer Olympics

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Speaker 1: they were one of the best countries. They won things

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Speaker 1: you don't even think of associating with Norway like beach

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Speaker 1: volleyball right arguably the best per capital sports country in

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Speaker 1: the world. They barred keeping score in youth sports underage

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Speaker 1: twelve and coaches will face a penalty if they're caught

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Speaker 1: doing it. And this is I think arguably the greatest

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Speaker 1: sports country in the world right now. And so I

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Speaker 1: think they realized that parents can't do it alone, you know,

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Speaker 1: they need to have better systems, and so I feel

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Speaker 1: for parents, you know, I think the best they can

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Speaker 1: do is at least try to vary the kind of

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Speaker 1: you know, physical problem solving and and physical challenges that

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Speaker 1: that a kid will face. But it's difficult because it

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Speaker 1: depends on what's available around them and if their kids

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Speaker 1: not going to be allowed to participate unless they specialize,

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Speaker 1: what can they do that. That's why I think kind

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Speaker 1: of what you're doing, it's so important because I think

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Speaker 1: it's not just part of informing parents and coaches, but

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Speaker 1: hopefully going a little way towards towards turning this counterproductive

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Speaker 1: ship eventually. You know, I appreciate that. And one thing

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Speaker 1: that you know, you mentioned going rogue and I was

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Speaker 1: listening to it, I'm visualized, and I'm thinking, well, one

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Speaker 1: thing that I'm so lucky to have is my own

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Speaker 1: experience as an athlete. My wife, you know, played soccer

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Speaker 1: in college. I played baseball in college, so you know,

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Speaker 1: it's much easier for us to kind of And of

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Speaker 1: course I'm forty three in September, so I grew up

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Speaker 1: in a different eras so I can feel confident with

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Speaker 1: my decision making because I have an experience, like I know,

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Speaker 1: you know. Because here's the thing though, this is one

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Speaker 1: of the main drivers, and it's one of the things

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Speaker 1: like talk about the most is you know, people love

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Speaker 1: to sell the whole d one thing right in order

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Speaker 1: to go to Power five. You know, everyone wants to

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Speaker 1: go play for Clemson, the schools on TV, right, Alabama

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Speaker 1: whatever it is. Um, not everyone can play there, let

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Speaker 1: alone playing college period. Um So I don't feel sucked

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Speaker 1: into that because I know maybe I'm too realistic at times,

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Speaker 1: but I think most parents and people have no idea

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Speaker 1: what it's like to play sport past high school, you know,

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Speaker 1: so so they can't use their own experience, so they're

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Speaker 1: being pulled in so many different directions. I guess as

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Speaker 1: someone who I know, you're a runner and athlete as well, Like,

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Speaker 1: how can parents who don't have the athletic experience like

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Speaker 1: look at your data or listen to this show and say, wow,

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Speaker 1: I can trust that because the fear of missing out,

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Speaker 1: we know drives the stock market. You know, it's not

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Speaker 1: it's it's real. It's a real thing. And the fear

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Speaker 1: of missing out and your kid letting them down is real.

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Speaker 1: How can people work through that overcome? Yeah, and and

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Speaker 1: by the way, it's it's interesting that you mentioned, you

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Speaker 1: know that it's easier for you and I randovision one

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Speaker 1: track after playing football, basketball, baseball in high school. And

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Speaker 1: it's interesting you mentioned it's it's sort of easier for

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Speaker 1: you to conceive this and and for me because what

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Speaker 1: I found is that parents who themselves, especially who were

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Speaker 1: pro athletes, since most of them had multi sport upbringing,

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Speaker 1: they're like the easiest people to convince. You know, you

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Speaker 1: don't have to tell them anything about the research. They

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Speaker 1: get it. And so, like you said, it's an interesting

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Speaker 1: it's that this issue, you know, I remember talking to

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Speaker 1: Art Torres and one of the greatest swimmers of all time.

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Speaker 1: I also like took a year off to play volleyball

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Speaker 1: you know, in the middle of her career, and she

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Speaker 1: was saying, you know, she'll have like youth coaches will

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Speaker 1: be telling her like no, no, sorry, you know, trust me,

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Speaker 1: like we need to specialize. So it'll be like some

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Speaker 1: of the best athletes in American history, and coaches will

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Speaker 1: be telling them they don't know what they're talking about.

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Speaker 1: I think it's well meaningmed but there's this real disconnect.

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Speaker 1: And so for parents, I think it's really really difficult.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think because a lot of it's about

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Speaker 1: what's available in their area, and I think the best

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Speaker 1: they can do is make sure that the kids are

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Speaker 1: getting some of that unstructured time time so it's not

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Speaker 1: all structured, you know, even if it's not putting them

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Speaker 1: in another league, like giving them the chance to do

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Speaker 1: some other physical things like not not feeling pressured to

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Speaker 1: put them on every single travel team, right and pay

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Speaker 1: for every showcase and all those sorts of things, and

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Speaker 1: try to diversify that activities even if they are you know,

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Speaker 1: like you said, by definition, most kids are not going

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Speaker 1: to play in college or at higher levels. But even

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Speaker 1: if they are going to do that, the benefits to

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Speaker 1: their ultimate skill learning and to their physical durability of

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Speaker 1: diversifying their movement. Not having them, you know, more than

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Speaker 1: nine months a year focused on just one thing are enormous.

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Speaker 1: So even even if they are going to the elite level,

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Speaker 1: you're increasing their chances by doing that, and most aren't.

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Speaker 1: And so if you vary up what they're doing and

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Speaker 1: you can give them the sampling period, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: better chance that they find something one that matches their

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Speaker 1: interests and to the matches their abilities. This is what's

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Speaker 1: so called match quality. Finding activities that they fit your

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Speaker 1: interests and abilities. It's really important for performance, for persistence,

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Speaker 1: for sense of fulfillment, all these things. And so I

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Speaker 1: think those are the things that we should be looking

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Speaker 1: at for kids, that that sense of fulfillment and something

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Speaker 1: that matches their interests and ability. So, whether you're thinking

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Speaker 1: about performance or just their will being those those things aligned.

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Speaker 1: When you and Malcolm Ladwell kind of get on a

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Speaker 1: call or when you guys had your debate, you know,

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Speaker 1: I remember, if I'm not mistaken, kind of inspired you

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Speaker 1: what are some things that if you don't mind, can

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Speaker 1: you use pull out a couple of examples where you

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Speaker 1: guys kind of clashed with your ideology, but also maybe

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Speaker 1: some things where you might have you know, met in

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Speaker 1: the middle or had some you know, especially regarding athletics,

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Speaker 1: or how you can take the data from both of

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Speaker 1: your research and books and apply them towards especially the

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Speaker 1: youth athletics that we see today kind of this culture.

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Speaker 1: Can you get into that a little bit? Yeah, I mean, well,

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Speaker 1: here's the things that now he and I are on

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Speaker 1: very similar ground, which is interesting. Right the first time

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Speaker 1: we ever met was that the m I T S

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Speaker 1: Clone Sports Analytics Conference. We were invited by Darryl Mora,

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Speaker 1: you know, so other president of semi sixers to debate

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Speaker 1: and you know it's a titled ten Hours versus the

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Speaker 1: Sports Gene. It's up on youtue you And that's actually

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Speaker 1: when I first got interested really in the early specialization

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Speaker 1: because in preparation for that debate, you know, he's very clever.

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Speaker 1: I want to get embarrassed on stage. The first summermat

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Speaker 1: him Um. I went through and looked at all the

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Speaker 1: research I could find to see like what were the

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Speaker 1: actual developmental trajectories of lead athletes? And I saw that

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Speaker 1: he had written about the importance of early hyper specialization.

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Speaker 1: So when we got to that debate, I said, Okay,

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Speaker 1: here's here's what you're saying. Here's your hypothesis that this

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Speaker 1: early head start is is the most important advantage. And

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Speaker 1: here's what this mountain of research says that actually, these

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Speaker 1: people going on to become elite are sampling early in

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Speaker 1: delaying specialization. So these things cannot fit together. You made

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Speaker 1: a hypothesis, and here's this data that's falsifying it. And

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Speaker 1: in that talk, maybe it was when even when we

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Speaker 1: were coming off the stage, he said, you know what

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Speaker 1: that data you talked about that does not fit with

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Speaker 1: what I said. You want to come run with me

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Speaker 1: tomorrow when we're back home in New York and we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about it. And that's how we started discussing this

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Speaker 1: and he changed his mind about it. We went also

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Speaker 1: on YouTube. We we met again at the Sloan Conference

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Speaker 1: five years later in twenty nineteen, and in like the

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Speaker 1: last few minutes it's got to be like in the

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Speaker 1: last five minutes of this video, it's up there towards

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Speaker 1: the very end, he says, Yeah, I've changed my mind.

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Speaker 1: I think that a lot of practice is necessary to

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Speaker 1: be great. But I made the error of assuming that

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Speaker 1: that means early hyper specialization, and and now I believe

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Speaker 1: that is false. And so we've come to be on

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Speaker 1: quite similar ground, you know, to the point where on

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Speaker 1: Friday I interviewed him. We did a little like a

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Speaker 1: Facebook life chat, and I asked Glad we were also

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Speaker 1: talking about creativity in general, and I asked him because

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Speaker 1: he loves to ask these like big grand questions, like

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Speaker 1: if you were the emperor of creativity, you know, how

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Speaker 1: would you change society? And one of his answers was, well,

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Speaker 1: I would. I would force people, especially when they were young,

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Speaker 1: into sort of lottery where they had to try different things,

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Speaker 1: so that trying new things wouldn't feel risky and so

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Speaker 1: that they would you get this broader knowledge. And then

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Speaker 1: when certains are talking about youth sports, he said, for

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Speaker 1: youth sports, I would start randomizing people with different activities

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Speaker 1: early on, so they could try different things and get

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Speaker 1: a sense of what they're around. There. I didn't even

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Speaker 1: ask him about the sport. He said he would start

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Speaker 1: randomizing people so that they would have a sampling period.

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Speaker 1: So that's obviously very different, you know than I think

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Speaker 1: what public perception of what his mindset probably is so.

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Speaker 1: I mean, listen, I know we're not keeping tracks of

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Speaker 1: wins and losses there, but I gotta believe you're wearing

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Speaker 1: the w on this whole thing. I mean, on that

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Speaker 1: one point of that topic. You know, I I homed

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Speaker 1: in on it so specifically. I think, you know, he

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Speaker 1: said that, you know, I changed some of his mind.

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Speaker 1: He changed my mind on some other thing, but I

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Speaker 1: think on that one, uh, he came over to my

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Speaker 1: side of it. That's David Epstein, best selling author of

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Speaker 1: Range and the Sports Gene. When you return, David and

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Speaker 1: I dive into the physical and mental issues that stem

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Speaker 1: from over specialization at a young age. Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: the Reformed Sports Project podcast. Where David and I left off.

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Speaker 1: We were about to discuss how over specialization that nearly

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Speaker 1: age can oftentimes lead to overduse injuries, both mentally and physically.

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Speaker 1: The reason why I think it's fascinating I care with

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Speaker 1: for people to hear the because if I'm building a brand,

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Speaker 1: I go back to baseball, but it could be any sport,

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Speaker 1: you know, and I want people to come to my

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Speaker 1: organization year round. I'm gonna take out X scripts of

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Speaker 1: data from outliers and I'm gonna sell it, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna sell it to parents like look at, look at,

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Speaker 1: you gotta do this, you gotta this. And then you know,

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Speaker 1: I've had people on I mean, let's face it, if

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Speaker 1: you really want to have the best ten, eleven, twelve,

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Speaker 1: you thirteen, you team, yeah, go play everything year round.

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Speaker 1: But then look fast forward. Why are sixteen year old,

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Speaker 1: seventeen year olds whatever having roughly sixty of the Tommy

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Speaker 1: John surgeries in this country? You know, like over you said,

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Speaker 1: I mean, is there a direct correlation with over youth injuries?

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Speaker 1: Did you know anything about that specific data? Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: and not just that actually even if you go up

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Speaker 1: to the pro level. So there was a guy used

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Speaker 1: to be a surgeon for the Mess was doing some

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Speaker 1: of this research which he was saying basically, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm simplifying here, but we have his epidemic of

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Speaker 1: Tommy John surgery in Major League baseball. Even while these

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Speaker 1: pictures are throwing less and less and less than ever,

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Speaker 1: what's going on here? And since Lee, what you know,

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Speaker 1: what his research coalesced around was the idea that when

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Speaker 1: they were still growing, you know, when they were younger,

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Speaker 1: they were setting up like micro tears in their ligament

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Speaker 1: by overthrowing when they were younger, and so this is

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Speaker 1: sort of they were setting themselves up for injury later.

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Speaker 1: And you might say, okay, Tommy John, no big deal.

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Speaker 1: You know, most people at the high levels come back

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Speaker 1: to the high level after the first one, but after

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Speaker 1: their second one, very very few do, almost none do.

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Speaker 1: And the sooner you get the first one, the sooner

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Speaker 1: you're gonna end up getting that second one. And so

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Speaker 1: he became very concerned about setting up these micro tears,

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Speaker 1: you know, which don't really show themselves that much, but

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Speaker 1: will ultimately set you up for failure. So there was

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Speaker 1: another four year tracking study of looking at in a

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Speaker 1: wide range of sports at the kids suffering what we're

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Speaker 1: called adult style over use injuries, which which means like

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Speaker 1: something that's going to probably impair the athletic career but

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Speaker 1: maybe even their life more broadly for a long time.

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Speaker 1: And the best predictor was if a kid was playing

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Speaker 1: one sport and only one sport more than nine months

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Speaker 1: a year, so diverse vacation had like a protective effect

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Speaker 1: against injury. Um one of the other strong predictors of

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Speaker 1: suffering adult foul over youth injury. Interestingly was family income,

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Speaker 1: so the wealthier families were more likely to have this.

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Speaker 1: You know, most health epidemics, you know, war so afflict

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Speaker 1: people without means. This one tend to afflict families with

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Speaker 1: means because they could pay for like the private coaching

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Speaker 1: and all makes sense to all those things. So it's

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Speaker 1: kind of interesting to hear that. And just to go

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Speaker 1: to one other point you mentioned, since I think it's

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Speaker 1: so important that new paper that I mentioned that What

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Speaker 1: makes a Champion paper with over six thousand athletes in

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Speaker 1: the study that found that there was an inverse correlation

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Speaker 1: between like junior and senior progress, So like you said,

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Speaker 1: sometimes you have to sacrifice that ten or twelve year

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Speaker 1: old championships. That that's what really spoke to me in

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Speaker 1: this study that it found that the kids who were

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Speaker 1: going to the top ultimately, who had the optimal development,

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Speaker 1: developed a little slower at first, and weren't the ones

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Speaker 1: winning all the championships when they were ten and twelve

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Speaker 1: and the ones that we're winning when they were ten

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Speaker 1: and twelve tended not to go beyond that, So there

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Speaker 1: was this tension between short and long term development. I mean, honestly,

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Speaker 1: if I use a more you know, honest but less

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Speaker 1: marketable subtitle of my book range. I think it would

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Speaker 1: have been like sometimes a head starting on your mind

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Speaker 1: long term development, And that just came through loud and

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Speaker 1: clear in this in this recent study. That's fascinating, man.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we're talking a lot about the physical,

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Speaker 1: you know, physical side, but what about the you know,

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Speaker 1: mental health gets talked about constant especially now applaud you

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Speaker 1: know Peter Carlisle, head of Octagon, Olympics and Action Sports,

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Speaker 1: him and his team spearheading mental health, you know, really

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Speaker 1: bringing it to the forefront with Michael Phelps and of

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Speaker 1: course now Simone Biles and so many other athletes. And

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Speaker 1: then you see others in the n b A, you know,

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Speaker 1: Kevin Love and so many others. I don't have enough

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Speaker 1: to name them all, but they're willing to step forward

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Speaker 1: and talk about this. And there used to be like

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Speaker 1: this real stigma, you know, people correl a mental health

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Speaker 1: of mental weakness in your you know, if you don't

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Speaker 1: stick your chest out and that tough, you're not a

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Speaker 1: real athlete type thing. I know, I grew up in

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Speaker 1: an error where it seemed like that was the case. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think it's brought to light these things that we

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Speaker 1: all deal with, right, it's kind of a human emotion

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Speaker 1: that we all got to deal with. But how much

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Speaker 1: does does any of your research cover maybe this over

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Speaker 1: specialist a or diversification, any implications or data that would

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Speaker 1: suggest highs to mental health or mental wellness? Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: can you get into that at all? Yeah? I think so.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's not I would say in this case,

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Speaker 1: might know this research is it's more of a budding

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Speaker 1: field and less clear than like with physical injuries, UM

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Speaker 1: and skill development. So I'm a little more speculating here,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's I mean, I think there's definitely

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Speaker 1: evidence that suggests there's and effect. Like there's some famous

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Speaker 1: research and Tennis that looked at kids who were doing

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Speaker 1: like really really well when they were young and looked

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Speaker 1: at what would happen when someone then identified them as

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Speaker 1: being you know, a future talent basically, And what would

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Speaker 1: happen is they would then take them from what had

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Speaker 1: been working for the kids and the kids are loving

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Speaker 1: it and all this stuff, and they would put them

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Speaker 1: into what the researchers then called a more restrictive environment

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Speaker 1: where instead of continuing to sort of do what they

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Speaker 1: had been doing or slowly transitioning. They would go from

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Speaker 1: you know, having more time for the lightly structured activity

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Speaker 1: into like right into rigorous like everything is being coached,

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Speaker 1: like they're not supposed to think about what they're doing anymore,

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Speaker 1: just do what you're told, and almost all of them

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Speaker 1: would quit. I think all of the girls have studied

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Speaker 1: quit by some of them, whom have been like top

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Speaker 1: hundred juniors in the world, would quit by the time

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Speaker 1: they were seventeen um. And the girls would get put

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Speaker 1: in even more restrictive environments for than the boys, for

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Speaker 1: you know, whatever reason. Um. But the quitting rates were

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Speaker 1: just astonishingly huge. And so the the young people who

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00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,240
Speaker 1: kept on developing, a few of whom were Swedish and

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00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:25,440
Speaker 1: top ten in the world, had sort of the blessing

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00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,320
Speaker 1: in disguise of being in these sort of less hyper

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00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:30,840
Speaker 1: competitive environments, so they were able to go through the

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00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,280
Speaker 1: normal transitions of development um a little bit more slowly,

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00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,719
Speaker 1: and they they talked, they continue to talk about their

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00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,080
Speaker 1: love of the sport instead of having this transition where

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00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:40,760
Speaker 1: they're like, yeah, I went from something that I liked

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00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,520
Speaker 1: to something that I basically hated and when that transition happens,

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00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:44,959
Speaker 1: if they lose a little bit there out and they

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00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,440
Speaker 1: just quit. So so you saw, you know, a bunch

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00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,679
Speaker 1: of that there. There's also some pretty interesting research about

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00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,760
Speaker 1: how having a hobby, like something outside of your main

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00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,280
Speaker 1: work can be really helpful for self efficacy. You know,

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00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:00,840
Speaker 1: your your feelings of your own competence, seeing well being.

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00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,560
Speaker 1: If that hobby is unrelated to the work that you're doing,

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00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,359
Speaker 1: if it's like if if your hobby is basically the

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00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,480
Speaker 1: same thing as your work, then it actually lowers your

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00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,400
Speaker 1: feelings of self efficacy. So I think there's some suggestive

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00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:16,080
Speaker 1: evidence that people need another outlet also, and so I

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00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,199
Speaker 1: think we should think about that, not only for ourselves,

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00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,200
Speaker 1: but but for kids. Right if everything is getting focused,

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00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:23,840
Speaker 1: all the pressures building up on just one thing, I mean,

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00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,560
Speaker 1: I don't think that's that's a you know, the key

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00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,560
Speaker 1: to psychological well being for adults, much less kids. Amazing, man,

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00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,760
Speaker 1: I know you're busy. Your time is incredibly valuable and

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00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:36,640
Speaker 1: I can't thank enough for coming on, sharing your insight,

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00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,280
Speaker 1: sharing your feedback. Where can folks find you? Um, I

459
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,400
Speaker 1: know you're putting out I mean just a ton of content,

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00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,399
Speaker 1: amazing content, um, take him in and tell the audience

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00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:45,919
Speaker 1: where they can find your work and how they can

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00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,640
Speaker 1: follow up. Yeah, right now, the most uh frequent place

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00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:51,480
Speaker 1: you can find me is I started a newsletter and

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00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 1: said David Epsteins at Bulletin dot com, Um, and I

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00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,400
Speaker 1: write about a lot of different issues, but this issue definitely,

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00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,159
Speaker 1: you know, comes up regularly. And let me see if

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00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,240
Speaker 1: I can actually scroll it here because I was writing

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00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,359
Speaker 1: about it recently and I linked the study that I

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00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,480
Speaker 1: was just talking about. So in the September twenty one

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00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 1: post um, I linked that that new study about athletic development.

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00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:13,680
Speaker 1: People go in there and they can hit the hyperlink

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00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,119
Speaker 1: if they want to read the study directly. I love it.

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00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,200
Speaker 1: And and real quick, um my episode with Anson Durance

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00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,120
Speaker 1: when I was speaking to antson right, who is a legend,

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00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,119
Speaker 1: I mean among any coach ever in the history of

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00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,160
Speaker 1: leadership of sport. He sits there and goes on I mean, Dave.

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00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,440
Speaker 1: I was like, is is Anson on David Epstein's payroll?

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00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 1: Because he literally was just talking about range and how

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00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:37,639
Speaker 1: he talks about it at his camps. And I mean

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00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,520
Speaker 1: he could not speak enough about you your work range,

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00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,239
Speaker 1: So hey, you gotta go talking about you. Man, that's

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00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 1: amazing because I've been a fan of his from Afar,

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00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,440
Speaker 1: never talked to him, um, but but thanks to you,

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00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,200
Speaker 1: I see uh in my mail from yesterday. I think

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00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 1: I have a book from him, So I appreciate that.

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00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,880
Speaker 1: Oh that's awesome that you guys connected. Man. Well, good listen.

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00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:56,880
Speaker 1: I can't thank you enough for coming on. David Epstein

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00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,600
Speaker 1: the man. I appreciate you, man, pleasure. That's David, best

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Speaker 1: selling author of Range in the Sports Gene. Thanks for

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00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 1: listening to the Reform Sports Project podcast. Dominic Bonacourt and

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00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 1: our goal is to restore a healthy balance and perspective

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00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 1: in all areas of sports through education and advocacy. For updates,

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00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,880
Speaker 1: please follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, or check

494
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 1: out our website by searching for the Reform Sports Project