1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: You may remember a couple of years ago there were 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: all these news stories in the US about people going 3 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:10,960 Speaker 1: to start their cars and finding thieves had stolen their 4 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: catalytic converter. And then tons of videos popped up on 5 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: YouTube and the evening news. They showed people brazenly crawling 6 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: under cars in parking lots and sawing off catalytic converters 7 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: in broad daylight. 8 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 2: These sixteen cars at Drivers Village in Cicero are now 9 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 2: sitting in park after two sneaky thieves stole each of 10 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 2: the vehicle's catalytic converters back. 11 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 3: In night ONNYA. This crew was captured on camera by 12 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 3: the car's owner. Look at them, jack up the car 13 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 3: and off they go. The owner said they had a 14 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 3: catalytic converter in the hand. 15 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,639 Speaker 2: Turns out, unfortunately, even police vehicles are not safe from 16 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 2: catalytic converter thieves. 17 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: It was happening all over the country, and it kept happening. 18 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: That made Bloomberg BusinessWeek contributor Evan Ratleff wonder was this 19 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: just an uptick in petty crime or was there something 20 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: more going on here? So he went to find out. 21 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: The short answer, yeah, there was a lot more going 22 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: on here. 23 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 4: People are bringing U hauls and trucks full of them, 24 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 4: and you know, they stand there and they price them out, 25 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 4: they pay them in cash, and then they're gone. 26 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: I'm West Casova today on the big take. Your catalytic 27 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: converter is worth its weight in gold or platinum to 28 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: be per sext Evan. What is a catalytic converter. 29 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 4: Well, a catalytic converter is essentially a device, mechanical device. 30 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 4: Before your exhaust pipe, there's this little structure. It's like 31 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 4: a fat pipe connected to skinny pipes. So inside the 32 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 4: fat pipe there's what they call in the trade a core. 33 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 4: It's usually like a ceramic core, or they call it 34 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 4: a honeycomb core because it sort of looks like a 35 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 4: honeycomb from a beehive. And inside of that there are catalysts. 36 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 4: And what those catalysts do is they clean the exhaust 37 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 4: coming from your engine before it exits the tailpipe. So 38 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 4: it takes really horrible gases like nitrous oxide and carbon 39 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 4: monoxide and converts them to relatively harmless gases, including carbon dioxide, 40 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 4: which is not harmless to the environment but in terms 41 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 4: of smog and ground pollution. So the catalytic converter serves 42 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 4: this important function and the actual catalyst the chemical reactions 43 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 4: are catalyzed by these three metals that are included in 44 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 4: a catalytic converter, which are rodium, palladium, and platinum. They're 45 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 4: part of this group called platinum group metals or PGMs. 46 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,679 Speaker 4: You'll hear all the time PGMs in terms of catalytic converters. 47 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 4: And so those metals exist in sort of trace amounts 48 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 4: less than a quarter ounce in inside a catalytic converter, 49 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 4: and that is where the value lies for someone trying 50 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 4: to steal a converter. 51 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: And what's so fascinating about that is, for a lot 52 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: of years, as you say, like trace amounts of these 53 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: metal e who cares, they'd go to the junk yard, 54 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: no one give them a second thought, or maybe scrap 55 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: metal places would take come and see what they could get. 56 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: But that changed during the pandemic. 57 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 4: Right, The metal prices fluctuate on the open market, and 58 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 4: they're pretty rare metals, especially palladium and rodium. Platinum a 59 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 4: little less so, but platium and rodium are hard to 60 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 4: mine their kind of byproducts of platinum mines and other minds. 61 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 4: So in pre pandemic times, they just weren't worth all 62 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 4: that much. And then the pandemic struck, a lot of 63 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 4: the mines were closed, particularly in South Africa, which is 64 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 4: the predominant place where these metals are mined, and there 65 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 4: were also infrastructure logistics problems, supply chain problems, so the 66 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 4: price is shot up of the metals shut up. 67 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 3: In an extraordinary way in some cases. 68 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 4: So as the prices started going up, it became more 69 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 4: and more valuable to have a catalytic converter, So those 70 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 4: prices went up correspondingly, because if you have a used 71 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 4: catalytic converter, you can, through a pretty complicated process, extract 72 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 4: the metals and sell them back to the market. 73 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: So Evan, you said, when you first started looking into this, 74 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: it was kind of a local crime. But then you 75 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: started looking a little deeper, and that's when you found No, 76 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: those people on the street are the beginning of this 77 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: really big, long global supply chain for the metals inside 78 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 1: these converters. 79 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 4: The place where I really discovered that this was a 80 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 4: much bigger story. I was actually piggybacking on the back 81 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 4: of an investigation that was started by the police department 82 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 4: in Tulsa Oklahoma, and in Tulsa they had the same 83 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 4: problem they had all over the United States, which is 84 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 4: there were a lot more catalytic converter thefts beginning in 85 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 4: twenty twenty. They tried to figure out what to do 86 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 4: about it, and within the Tulsa PD there was one 87 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 4: particular detective who decided that not only should they look 88 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:01,559 Speaker 4: at the local thefts and what they call cutters, people 89 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 4: cutting them off the cars, but also where did they 90 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,359 Speaker 4: all go, Like, where were they selling them, where was 91 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 4: the money coming from? And he started investigation where they 92 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 4: ended up investigating the whole supply chain of these stolen converters. 93 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 4: And so I sort of decided to tell the story 94 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 4: of how that developed. 95 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: So your story starts at in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and it's 96 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: with a traffic stop, right like so many other stories 97 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: like this begin. 98 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 4: Yeah, basically pretty routine traffic stop. Someone called in. It 99 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 4: was actually an off duty cops saw a pickup truck 100 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 4: full of catalytic converters called it in because after all 101 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 4: these steps started happening, it became suspicious to be driving 102 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 4: around with a bunch of catalytic converters in the back 103 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:45,679 Speaker 4: of the truck. It turned out there were one hundred 104 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 4: and twenty something in there. They pulled the truck over. 105 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 4: At the wheel was a guy named Tyler Curtis. And 106 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 4: Tyler Curtis's I think at the time he was maybe 107 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 4: twenty four twenty five. He had grown up in Oklahoma 108 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 4: and he had got into the catalytic converter business. And 109 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,359 Speaker 4: when he was pulled over, what he said in response 110 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 4: to why do you have all these catalytic converters was 111 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,559 Speaker 4: I'm a legitimate catalytic converter dealer. I'm a scrap metal dealer. 112 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 4: And they didn't actually charge him with the catalytic converters. 113 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,799 Speaker 4: He happened to also have a small amount of drugs 114 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 4: in his car and an unlicensed gun, so they charged 115 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 4: him with that, but they didn't charge him with the 116 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 4: catalytic converters. That traffic stop was sort of the beginning 117 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 4: of tracing this whole network because of what they found 118 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 4: out about Tyler Curtis. 119 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 1: Next, and so Curtis really did have this business. 120 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's one of the tricky things about this 121 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 4: whole industry was that Tyler Curtis had actually worked, he 122 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 4: had learned about the business at a legitimate scrap metal 123 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 4: recycling catalytic converter recycling outfit outside of Tulsa, and that's 124 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 4: where he learned the business. And then he said, wow, 125 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 4: this business is booming. He started his own business. But 126 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 4: the question with catalytic converters is how much due diligence 127 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,359 Speaker 4: are you doing when people show up with these catalytic converters. 128 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 4: And if someone shows up with truckload, then if they 129 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 4: don't have paperwork, they don't show where they came from, 130 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 4: you might be buying stolen converters. Now, what the authorities 131 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 4: allege was that Tyler Curtis and the people up the 132 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 4: chain from him, they really leaned into buying from anyone, 133 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 4: no matter how sketchy, even encouraging people to bring stolen 134 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 4: catalytic converters. That's the allegation, but it's very difficult to 135 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 4: tell if you just look at the catalytic converters where 136 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 4: they came from. 137 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about that for a minute, because we 138 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: talked about how you get underneath the car and take 139 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: this thing off, But how do you take off a 140 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: catalytic converter if you're going to steal one. 141 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 4: Usually if they're going to steal one, they will pull 142 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 4: up to a parking lot driveway. 143 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 3: Someone will hop out. 144 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 4: They'll have a jack, like a hydraulic jack, or at 145 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 4: least a floor jack. They'll jack up the car really quickly, 146 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 4: crawl underneath, take out what's called a sawzle, which is 147 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 4: a reticular saw. It's a handheld battery powered saw, and 148 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 4: they'll saw the pipe on either end of the convert 149 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 4: and then they'll pull it out. They can do it 150 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 4: in a couple of minutes, throw in the back of 151 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:04,559 Speaker 4: the car, drive off. 152 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 3: That's the standard theft. 153 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 4: But once you have it off the car, there's actually 154 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 4: no indication where it came from. You cannot look at 155 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 4: a catalytic converter and say it came from this specific car. 156 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 3: You can say the make and model. 157 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 4: They have a parts number essentially that you can use 158 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 4: to figure out, Oh, this was from a Toyota Tundra, 159 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 4: this was from a Toyota Prius. 160 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: There's not only a VIN number on the conver. 161 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 4: There's not They don't come with that. So that means 162 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 4: if you have a whole box full or truck full 163 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 4: or warehouse full of catalytic converters, someone can't go through 164 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 4: them and say, oh, these are stolen and these aren't. 165 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 4: Now A lot of cops will say I can tell 166 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 4: because they're rough cut, which means they look like they 167 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 4: were cut with a saw instead of unbolted from the car. 168 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 4: But the reality is a lot of junk yards where 169 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 4: they legitimately cut them off, they also use sazzles. They 170 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 4: might cut it a little more carefully, but it's very 171 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 4: difficult to sort of take someone in a serious case 172 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 4: in front of a court and use like the saw 173 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,719 Speaker 4: mark as the evidence that you're using to try to 174 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:05,559 Speaker 4: put them away. 175 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: Right, because if it's in a junkyard and the car 176 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: is junked anyway, and you legitimately want to get the 177 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: kind of a converter, why would you take time to 178 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: carefully on bolt the thing. 179 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 3: Just take it off. Yeah, all they're going to do 180 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 3: is recycle it. 181 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 4: They're going to crush it and take the inner core 182 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 4: dust out, and that's going to be smelted and eventually 183 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 4: refined back into the metals. 184 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:27,319 Speaker 3: So it doesn't matter how you cut it. 185 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 4: And not only is that a legitimate business, it's an 186 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 4: important business. Like the recycling of these metals is actually 187 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 4: very important, and I think a quarter of all PGMs 188 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 4: are actually recycled and it should be more. And so 189 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 4: you have this strange mixture of this legitimacy and then 190 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 4: the illegal side of it, kind of infiltrating into a 191 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 4: legitimate business. 192 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:53,719 Speaker 1: And that's exactly what drew you to Tyler Curtis. He's 193 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: running this business and the converters he's getting are probably 194 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: coming from all kinds of places, but the cops are 195 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: really suspicious, and so they decide, all right, we're gonna 196 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: put our eyes on this guy. 197 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. 198 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 4: I mean they get suspicious of Tyler Curtis in part 199 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 4: because they started arresting a lot of cutters street cutters, 200 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 4: people who they catch cutting them off cars, and some 201 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 4: of those people lead them to another intermediate buyer. They're 202 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 4: selling to a guy, and that guy shows up at 203 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 4: Tyler Curtis's place. So they put a GPS on this 204 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 4: guy's car, and he shows up at Tyler Curtis's place, 205 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 4: and they say, well, maybe Tyler Curtis is bigger than 206 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 4: we thought. 207 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 3: They get a warrant for his iPhone and iPad. 208 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 4: And then they discover, oh, he's got links to some 209 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 4: larger network allegedly, and then they get a warrant for 210 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 4: what's called a pole camera, which is like it sounds 211 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 4: a camera that you put on a pole, but surreptitiously, 212 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 4: so probably like a fake utility guy goes out and 213 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 4: climbs a pole, puts it outside of his place. And 214 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 4: then they're watching his facility twenty four hours a day, 215 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 4: and they start to see the volume that are coming in. 216 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 4: Pickup trucks pulling up, U haul's pulling up, people with 217 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 4: trailers attached pulling up, and they've got fifty one hundred, 218 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 4: two hundred converters in the back and he's pricing. 219 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 3: Them, or someone he works for him is pricing them. 220 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 4: They're paying them in cash, and they eventually calculate that 221 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 4: he's handling five thousand to six thousand converters per week. 222 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 4: So that's just people showing up pretty much all the 223 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 4: time with loads of converters. So he's really running a 224 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 4: booming business. There's millions of dollars coming through, and the 225 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 4: crazy thing is that all of it. 226 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,959 Speaker 3: Is in cash, like they're really operating in cash. It's 227 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 3: a cash business. And so now that's not all profit. 228 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 4: He's not making millions of dollars of profit, but he's 229 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 4: in the seven to eight figures range in terms of 230 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 4: what he's doing over the course of less than a year. 231 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 4: So that's a lot of cash that you need to 232 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 4: be dealing with and have around all the time. 233 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: The Tulsa is in a very big place, these converters 234 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: have to be coming from all over the place. 235 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 4: Then, yeah, they quickly discover that they're coming from all 236 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 4: over the Southwest. They're coming from Texas, they're coming from Oklahoma, obviously, 237 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 4: but they're coming from the Midwest, like some from California. 238 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 4: Like they're driving in. People are bringing U hauls and 239 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 4: trucks full of them, and you know, they stand there 240 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:16,839 Speaker 4: and they price them out, they pay them in cash, 241 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 4: and then they're gone. So then it creates this additional question, well, 242 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:22,199 Speaker 4: where's all this. 243 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 3: Cash coming from? 244 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 4: And one of the things they discover is that they're 245 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 4: packaging them up in these boxes and then shipping them 246 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,439 Speaker 4: to New Jersey. 247 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: After the break, what happened to those catalytic converters in 248 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: New Jersey? Evan, So the cops are now tracing up 249 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: the chain. I think the phrase you use in the 250 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: pieces that they wanted to kind of get the head 251 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: of the snake. 252 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what the detective in Tulsa PD whose name, 253 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 4: by the way, is Kansas Core, which is a credible 254 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 4: name for someone who's investigating catalytic converter theft, where the 255 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 4: prize thing that you're getting is the core and everyone 256 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 4: calls it the core in the business. So Kansas Core 257 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 4: was the person who really spearheaded the investigation out of Tulsa, PD. 258 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 4: He was the person who essentially said, like, we can 259 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 4: get to the top, and yeah, his superior told me, 260 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:21,959 Speaker 4: we want to cut the head off the snake. 261 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: So Kansas Core traces these catalytic converters from Tulsa to 262 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:30,959 Speaker 1: New Jersey and what did they find there? 263 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 3: In New Jersey? 264 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 4: They found this company called DJ Auto, which was operated 265 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 4: by a pair of brothers. The older one, his name 266 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 4: is Lovin Kanna. Lovin's sort of his nickname, everyone calls him. 267 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 4: And the two of them had been in the scrap 268 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 4: metal business for a long time, you know, recycling all 269 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 4: kinds of things, batteries, air conditioners, that sort of thing, 270 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 4: and they shifted into entirely dealing with catalytic converters in 271 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 4: twenty twenty when the prices went up and it was 272 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 4: clear that this was a huge business. And then pretty 273 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 4: quickly they started receiving converters from all around the country. 274 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 4: So they figured out how to sort of network with 275 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 4: regional players like a Tyler Curtis, who would sort of 276 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 4: gather up all the local catalytic converters, put them in 277 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 4: a box, ship a bunch of palettes of those catalytic 278 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 4: converters to them in New Jersey and then they would 279 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 4: take it the next step. They built a significant business, 280 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 4: not just selling the converters, but also this app that 281 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 4: they launched where you could price catalytic converters. So one 282 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 4: of the hard things about legitimate or illegitimate business in 283 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 4: catalytic converters is that the metal prices fluctuate, so by 284 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 4: the time you go to sell it, the price may 285 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 4: be different than when you either obtained it legally or 286 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 4: stole it, and so on their app, you could actually. 287 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 3: Check the prices day by day. 288 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 4: You could even lock in prices, so you could say, 289 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 4: I want to lock in this many converters at this price. 290 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 4: It's called hedging, so if the price goes down, then 291 00:14:58,320 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 4: you're good and you're not going to lose your shirt 292 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 4: over whatever lot. 293 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 3: You have of catalytic converters. 294 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 4: So they were sophisticated Operation and they also were just 295 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 4: making money hand over fist. I mean, this is where 296 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 4: the money gets really big. We're talking five hundred and 297 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 4: forty five million dollars alleged by the Justice Department over 298 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 4: the course of essentially less than three years. 299 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 3: Again in revenue. 300 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 4: That's not their profits, but that's the amount of cash 301 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 4: that was passing through this business. 302 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: And so they were getting these converters from all over, 303 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: like when Kansas Corps is talking about trying to trace 304 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: up the line. So you have these guys who are 305 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: either selling them legitimately from junk yards or other places. 306 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: We're chopping them off cars and then selling them to 307 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: another person and then selling them to an intermediary like 308 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: Tyler Curtis and Tulsa, and there are Tyler Curtis's all 309 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: over the place, and then they're all funneling to New Jersey. 310 00:15:58,000 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 311 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 4: So the Connup brothers had and Digi Auto, So they 312 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 4: had a facility. I went there and I interviewed some 313 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 4: of the other people that worked next to it, and 314 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 4: they said they were just coming in twenty four hours 315 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 4: a day, Like we're talking to tractor trailers full of 316 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 4: catalytic converters. And also they were getting shipments through you know, 317 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 4: major freight companies, so they're getting pallettes and pallettes of these. 318 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 4: Eventually they bought a junk yard, which was a larger 319 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 4: place for them to receive the catalytic converters. And also 320 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 4: a junk yard is sort of a natural place where 321 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 4: you would also get legal catalytic converters, so I think 322 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 4: the authorities would allege that they did that kind of 323 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 4: as a cover, but it's a great place to receive 324 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 4: catalytic converters. So they had these facilities, they would receive 325 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 4: them from all around the country, and then they take 326 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 4: them to the next step, which is they have in 327 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 4: the end four decanning machines, which are essentially things that 328 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 4: you take the catalytic converter and you stick it in 329 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 4: there and it's like a guillotine and it slices it 330 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 4: open and then it crushes it and all the dust 331 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 4: from the ceramic core falls into a box. So then 332 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 4: you have what's called catalytic converter dust, which is the 333 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 4: metals are in there, they're amidst that dust. In fact, 334 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 4: they have a special vacuum that vacuums up the dust 335 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 4: that kind of drifts into the air because that dust 336 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 4: that just drifts off of it is also valuable. 337 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 3: You need to collect it all. So they had four 338 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 3: of these machines. 339 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 4: They're running them all the time, and they're taking all 340 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 4: these converters and they're putting them in boxes and they're 341 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 4: sending them on to a refiner based in New Jersey. 342 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 4: So that's where the process kind of like moves on 343 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 4: to its next step. And these guys were really I mean, 344 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 4: they were really living the high life. 345 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:27,239 Speaker 3: You know. 346 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:31,959 Speaker 4: They bought Ferrari McLaren, you know, the highest end cars 347 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 4: for hundreds. 348 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 3: Of thousands of dollars. 349 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 4: They bought a big house in New Jersey on a 350 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 4: big plot of land, and they were basically scrap metal 351 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 4: dealers made good. 352 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 3: You know. They were at the top of the industry. 353 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: With Gigi Auto. The cops who are pursuing this case 354 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: have the same kind of question as they do with 355 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 1: Tyler Curtis back in Tulsa, which is, how do you 356 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 1: tell whether this is a legit operation? How are you 357 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: able to tell where a crime may have been committed? 358 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: So how do they start to zero in on their case. 359 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 4: The complicated question for the cops here is they have 360 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 4: some intuition that these people are dealing in stolen Caldic. 361 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 3: Converters, but you have to be able to prove it. 362 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 4: And first of all, you have to prove that a 363 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 4: certain number of them are stolen, and then you have 364 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 4: to be able to prove that they knew they were stolen. 365 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:24,959 Speaker 4: Both of those things have to be true if you're 366 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 4: going to win the case or get indictments. Even so, 367 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 4: proving that there were stolen converters in there involved essentially 368 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 4: tracking who showed up at different places, and then they 369 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 4: combine that with sending confidential informants in to sell to 370 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 4: these places, and the confidential informance would often come in 371 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 4: and tell some story about how, oh, I picked these 372 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 4: up off a guy who he was chased by the 373 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 4: cops and then he hit him in the woods and 374 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 4: then he got him back out, you know, elaborate story 375 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 4: about how sketchy they were, in order to establish a 376 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 4: sort of trail of evidence that they were buying catalytic 377 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 4: converters that they knew had a sketchy origin or knew 378 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 4: were explicitly illegal. 379 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 3: You know, they were stolen out of a warehouse, so 380 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 3: that sort of thing. 381 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 1: So they sent these guys in there and did they 382 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: buy from them. 383 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 3: They did. 384 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 4: It's hard to tell if there were more cases, and 385 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,199 Speaker 4: I'm sure if it goes to trial, the defense might 386 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 4: offer more cases where they might have rejected that. It 387 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 4: may be the case that they sent in a bunch 388 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 4: and they rejected them and they said, oh, I don't 389 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 4: want to buy those. But they certainly were able to 390 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 4: document cases where people came in trying to sell sketchy 391 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 4: converters and they bought them all gleefully, according to the indictments. 392 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 1: So Evan, how did this ultimately all unravel. 393 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 4: Well, the investigation became extremely sprawling. It involved the Department 394 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 4: of Homeland Security, It involved police departments all over the 395 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 4: United States. The investigation became so large, so unwieldy, that 396 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 4: all of these different organizations, these police departments and the 397 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 4: FEDS and everyone else, the important players, had to get 398 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 4: together in Philadelphia for three days to sort of plot 399 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 4: the end game of how they were going to take 400 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 4: these places down, because they had locations all over the 401 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 4: country to sort of pick and choose from, and they 402 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 4: wanted to do them all simultaneously. So they came up 403 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 4: with a code name because cops loved to come up 404 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 4: with a code name. They called it Operation Heavy Metal, 405 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 4: and they picked a day in early November of twenty 406 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 4: twenty two when they were going to take everybody down 407 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 4: at the same time. The day came and I interviewed 408 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 4: actually the next door neighbor to Tyler Curtis's business, and 409 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 4: he had actually rented the warehouse to Tyler Curtis and 410 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 4: believed from all outward appearances it's a completely legitimate business. 411 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 4: And he was sort of described that morning in November 412 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 4: where he was getting a coffee and he just looked 413 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 4: out his window and there was a tank outside and 414 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 4: there were like shooters on the roof next door, and 415 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 4: he was sort of like, what is going on? 416 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 3: And he thought, oh, oh. 417 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 4: This guy around of the warehouse two must be dealing 418 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 4: with drugs and weapons or something. And then he sort 419 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 4: of went out and talked to the cops and they 420 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 4: told him it was catalytic converters, and he said, well, 421 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 4: I don't know, it seems like a little overkill with 422 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,959 Speaker 4: the swat teams that they brought, but they did that 423 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 4: all over the country. They brought in sort of their 424 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 4: heaviest tools. They raided the warehouse in Tulsa. They also 425 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 4: in Nevada, in Wisconsin, they did a rate of Virginia. 426 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 4: They did multiple raids in New Jersey for the Kanas, 427 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 4: so that included their facility and also their home where 428 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 4: they had all the fancy cars and their six car garage. 429 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 4: This Ferrari is one of several luxury cars sees from 430 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 4: this one point seven million dollar home Wednesday. 431 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 3: It's where federal agents say DG Auto LLC is based. 432 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 3: You're in Oklahoma. 433 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 2: Our raid took place at a facility in Wagner County 434 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 2: this morning. 435 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 3: Analytic converter, theft rink. 436 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,239 Speaker 1: This might be happening in your neighborhood, It's happening all 437 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:52,919 Speaker 1: around the country. 438 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 2: One of these defendants is actually has an Instagram account 439 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 2: with a picture wearing a necklace with a catalytic converter 440 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 2: on it. So big money here, big arrests, a big 441 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 2: case by the Department of. 442 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 3: Justice around the country. 443 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 4: They arrested twenty one different people connected to the alleged network, 444 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 4: and the allegations are basically like interstate stolen property and 445 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 4: money laundering. 446 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: And so they took Tyler Curtis into custody. 447 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 3: They took Tyler Curtis into custody. 448 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 4: Actually he had pulled out right when they came with 449 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 4: their raid, and then he came back maybe to see 450 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 4: what was going on. They arrested everybody without incident, and 451 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 4: then Tyler Curtis was Actually he couldn't even get out 452 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 4: on bail for a good five months after they had 453 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 4: him in, and the connas to this moment have not 454 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 4: gotten out on bail. They're actually still in jail waiting trial. 455 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 1: Tyler Curtis was in custody but made bail and is 456 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: now out awaiting trial. What does he have to say 457 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: about his case? 458 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 4: Well, he's pleaded not guilty, and I spoke to him briefly. 459 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 4: He seemed eager to talk about what had happened. I 460 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,640 Speaker 4: think he does have a defense that he could put 461 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 4: on here. But then when he came back, he said 462 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 4: that he'd consulted with his lawyer and he had to 463 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 4: wait till the case was resolved before we could actually talk. 464 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: What do Tyler Curtis's lawyers say about their client. 465 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 3: His lawyer declined to speak on his behalf. 466 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: And what about the Khana brothers, what do they say 467 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: about the charges against them? 468 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 4: The Kanna brothers both have pleaded not guilty in California 469 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 4: to the federal charges against them. Love and Kanna's attorney 470 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 4: emphasize that he is innocent until proven guilty, of course, 471 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 4: that applies to both of them, and that he has 472 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 4: the support of the community. It's worth making sure everyone 473 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 4: understands that everyone involved here is not guilty until proven otherwise. 474 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: I'm curious. You have so many details about what was 475 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: going on inside the investigation and what they knew. How 476 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: do you know all this stuff? 477 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 4: Well, some of what I know comes from from the indictments, 478 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 4: So the indictments are pretty detailed. But then in looking 479 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 4: for court documents around the case, I sort of happened 480 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 4: upon the reality that a number of search warrant affidavits 481 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 4: and seizure affidavits which are filed with federal judges, were 482 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 4: available through the Federal Court Document System, which called PACER. 483 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 4: They were not sealed, and typically in cases like this 484 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 4: they would be sealed. And then I also spent time 485 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 4: on the ground in Tulsa just interviewing people and talking 486 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,199 Speaker 4: to people about what Tyler Curtis's business was like and 487 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,239 Speaker 4: even the Tulsa PD like what they sort of went 488 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 4: through in trying to figure it out. 489 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: When we come back where all that dust ends up. 490 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: So after the police had moved in and rounded up 491 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: all these people, then the question became where did all 492 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 1: that dust that contain these precious metals go that generated 493 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: all that cash that was able to pay for these 494 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: converters all the way down the line, and that's where 495 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 1: the next step of your story went up. 496 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 4: From DG, there's another organization and that organization is in 497 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 4: the court tak position is called a refiner in Burlington, 498 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 4: New Jersey, and it's actually a company called DOA that's 499 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 4: based in Japan, and they were buying the dust that 500 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 4: was being sold by DG. And their expertise is taking 501 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 4: that dust, shipping it to Japan where they have facilities 502 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 4: that smelt, and then refine that dust back into pgm's 503 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 4: platinum group metals, which they then sell to the market. 504 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 4: So they're ultimately where all the science lives. That's where 505 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 4: they really can take the inside of a catalytic converter 506 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 4: and turn it back into the thing that's valuable. And 507 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,719 Speaker 4: again that is an important business because the recycling business 508 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 4: depends on smell helters and refiners being able to get 509 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 4: the metals out. Now, in this case, DOA was buying 510 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 4: from DG. I mean they were buying also some catalytic 511 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 4: converters too, but they were buying all this dust. And 512 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,199 Speaker 4: if you think about the dust, the dust is so 513 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 4: far from the catalytic converter that was on the car 514 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,360 Speaker 4: in terms of what you could do, like you literally 515 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 4: could not possibly trace this dust back to where it 516 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 4: came from. 517 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 3: It's dust. And that company is not indicted in this case. 518 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: And we should also say that company is not accused 519 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: of any wrongdoing. Its name was redacted in the indictments 520 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: and prosecutors refer to it only as an unindicted co conspirator. 521 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 4: Now, I went down to the company to see what 522 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 4: was going on there. I talked to an assistant purchasing 523 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 4: manager there. He didn't really want to talk about the business, 524 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 4: and he didn't really want to talk about stolen catalytic converters, 525 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 4: and he said we would talk more later, and then 526 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 4: he sent me to the press liaison, who then never 527 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,199 Speaker 4: responded to any of my requests. But people in the 528 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 4: recycling business, refiners, everybody has this problem, which is that 529 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 4: if you get a box of dust that's catalytic converter dust, 530 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 4: there's a pretty good chance that's somewhere in there. Fractionally 531 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 4: there's a stolen converter that is part of that dust, 532 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 4: But how could you possibly figure out. 533 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:19,199 Speaker 3: Where it came from, which one it was. 534 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 4: And so that's where the challenge of sort of trying 535 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 4: to pull apart the illegal business that's infiltrated illegal business, 536 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,199 Speaker 4: trying to pull it back out becomes incredibly challenging the 537 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 4: further up the chain you go. 538 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 1: So Tyler Curtis and DG Mike claim, well, we didn't 539 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: do anything wrong, we were just buying a legal product 540 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 1: on the market. Does that argument actually hold any weight? 541 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 4: Well, I think there are people in the industry who 542 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,919 Speaker 4: say they're just being made an example of because this 543 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 4: is such a huge problem and they were dealing with 544 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 4: it the way everyone else was dealing with it. They 545 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 4: were buying a ton of converters. Yes, but also I 546 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,679 Speaker 4: had one. And tell me if you look at the 547 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 4: number of stolen catalytic converters, which is anywhere from the 548 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 4: low end like sixty five thousand a year to up 549 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 4: to one hundred and fifty thousand a year in the 550 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 4: United States, and you kind of run the math on 551 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,640 Speaker 4: even if they had a majority of those that were 552 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 4: running through let's say DG Auto, it's still not most 553 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 4: of their business, like most of their business was still legal. 554 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:29,360 Speaker 4: And so the question becomes, how many illegal converters infiltrating 555 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 4: your business turns you into a criminal? And I think 556 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 4: the law is not really set up to try and 557 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 4: confront that. And the industry is also struggling with that 558 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 4: because people in the legitimate catalytic converter recycling industry, they 559 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 4: also want this problem dealt with. They don't want to 560 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 4: feel like criminals, you know. Some of them said, I 561 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 4: don't even tell people what I do anymore because people 562 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 4: think that I'm connected with this thing that got stolen off. 563 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 3: Their car in their driveway and they hate me. 564 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 4: And so the legal recyclers are also looking for a 565 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 4: way to kind of get this out of the supply 566 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 4: chain stream, but it's extremely difficult to do. It's a 567 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 4: very strange criminal circumstance. 568 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: So after this dust goes to the refiner and is 569 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: turned back into metals, what happens to those metals. 570 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 4: They make more catalytic converters. That's the primary use of 571 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 4: the metals going back into brand new catalytic converters, which 572 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 4: was one of the things that really just stuck with 573 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 4: me in the story that if your catalytic converter gets 574 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 4: stolen from your driveway, you get a new one. There's 575 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 4: some chance the actual PGMs in your catalytic converter came 576 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 4: from a stolen catalytic converter. They go back on the 577 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 4: market in a totally legitimate market and no one knows 578 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 4: where they came from. 579 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: Sovin, what is the answer here? You said that legitimate 580 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: catalytic converter recyclers want the shady side of the business 581 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: to be shut down, But is there an answer to 582 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: seeing this problem. 583 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 3: There's not a great answer. 584 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 4: First of all, the answers are often state by state, 585 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 4: so states come up with things like people can get 586 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 4: their catalytic converters etched with a serial number so it 587 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 4: is actually traceable to your car. If it gets stolen, 588 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 4: you can bolt it on better, there's kind of a 589 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 4: cover that you can put over it. But then in 590 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 4: terms of the law, you know, they always kind of 591 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 4: fall back on changing catalytic converter theft from a misdemeanor 592 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 4: to a felony, or making sure that you have to 593 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 4: have a certain kind of paperwork if you possess a 594 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 4: catalytic converter. You have to be able to say what 595 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 4: car did it come from? And you have to have 596 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 4: a license to possess catalytic converters. But that requires all 597 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 4: the way up the chain people keeping track of the 598 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 4: paperwork in a business that when you're dealing with junk 599 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 4: yards muffler shops, it is kind of tough to do, 600 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 4: especially if the laws are different for every state. Because 601 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 4: some of the dealers work across many states. And one 602 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 4: told me something that I do in one state I 603 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 4: can get arrested for in another state. 604 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: I guess if you look way a down the road, 605 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: electric cars don't need catalytic converters. 606 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:04,719 Speaker 3: That's the answer. 607 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 4: As long as electric cars continue their rise, maybe that'll 608 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 4: solve the problem, although in the meantime the problem arguably 609 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 4: gets worse because the higher admission standards you have, the 610 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 4: higher concentration of PGMs you have in the catalytic converters. 611 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 4: So as the United States and other countries institute these 612 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 4: emission standards higher and hire and hire, the catalytic converters 613 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 4: become worth more, so you might have a short term 614 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 4: problem and a long term solution. 615 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: Evan rightleft, thanks so much for coming on the show. 616 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 3: Thank you really enjoyed it. 617 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to us here at the Big Take. 618 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more 619 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 620 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: wherever you listen. And we'd love to hear from you. 621 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: Email us questions or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg 622 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: dot net. The supervising producer of the Big Take is 623 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: Vicky Vergalina. Your producer is Catherine Fink. Our producers are 624 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: Michael Falero and mow Barrow. Ruffaelm Seely is our engineer, 625 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: with additional production support from ABRAA Ruffin. Our original music 626 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: was composed by Leo Sidrin. I'm west Kasova. We'll be 627 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: back tomorrow with another Big Take.