1 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 1: We're a relationship poor. We've gone from relationship rich or 2 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:17,240 Speaker 1: social wealth, social richness to what I would call social poverty. 3 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:21,959 Speaker 1: When you see all those people dying from suicides and drugs, 4 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of factors in there, but honestly, 5 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: suicides globally are been going down, and they've been going 6 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: up in the United States. Yes, there's a problem of 7 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: drug cartels and supply of drugs and fetan all, but honestly, 8 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: the number of people who are and if you speak 9 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: to a guy like Sam Keinonis, who writes these great 10 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: books on the drug crisis in America, he will tell 11 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: you the loss of community is underlying it all. 12 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 2: Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. 13 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 2: I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm a father, 14 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 2: I'm an entrepreneur, and I've been a football coach in 15 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 2: Inner City Memphis. And somehow that last part led to 16 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 2: an oscar for the film about our team. That movie 17 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 2: is called Undefeated. I believe our country's problems will never 18 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 2: be solved by a bunch of fancy people and nice 19 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 2: suits talking big words that nobody understands on CNN and Fox, 20 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 2: but rather by an army of normal folks us just 21 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 2: you and me deciding, Hey, maybe I can help. Seth 22 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: Caplan is a leading expert on fragile states across the world, 23 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 2: and after a lot of people have asked him if 24 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 2: America has become a fragile state, well, Seth dove into it, 25 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 2: with the result being his powerful book, Fragile Neighborhoods Repairing 26 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 2: American Society One zip Code at a time. Y'all, this 27 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 2: is fascinating. I cannot wait for you to meet Right 28 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 2: after these brief messages from our general sponsors, Seth Kaplan, 29 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 2: Welcome to Memphis. 30 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: Great pleasure to be here. 31 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 2: Where'd you come from? What'd you're flying from? 32 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 1: I flew in from Reagan Airport, Washington. 33 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 2: D C. Capital got it. I was just there visiting 34 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 2: my son. And word of the wise, if you run 35 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 2: a car there and you got to turn it in 36 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 2: before you leave at extra time, because the car thing 37 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 2: there is just insane. 38 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: It can be insane. It's it's not. It is a 39 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: city that's known for bureaucracy. It is Washington, So. 40 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 2: I would I guess I should have assumed that the 41 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 2: bureaucratic approach to ronal car return would be arduous. All right, 42 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 2: So Seth kaplan everybody. He's the author of Fragile Neighborhoods 43 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 2: Repairing American Society one zip Code at a time, which 44 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 2: we are certainly going to get to, as well as 45 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 2: a bunch of his other work. And one question I 46 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 2: have for you, which you cannot answer now but we 47 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 2: will integrate later, which is why in the hell you 48 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 2: wrote this book in the first place. But don't tell me, 49 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,399 Speaker 2: don't answer yet. Answer, don't answer yet, because I think 50 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 2: for perspective, I found it very interesting the work you 51 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: have done that led up to writing it, and so 52 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 2: I want you to reveal to everybody why after we 53 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 2: talk about the work first, y'all. Seth is really just 54 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 2: kind of dumb guy. He's a leading expert on fragile states. 55 00:03:55,760 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 2: He's a professional lecturer at the Paul H. N sir 56 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 2: Nitzi School of Advanced International Studies, basically as a professor 57 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 2: at Johns Hopkins. He's a senior advisor for the Institute 58 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 2: of Integrated Transitions i f i T and a consultant 59 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 2: to multilateral organizations such as the World Bank, the US 60 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 2: State Department, the US Agency for International Development, and OECD, 61 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 2: as well as developing country, developing country governments, and NGOs. 62 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: It's a mouthful. We can just pass it by it. 63 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 2: It's a bunch. Yeah, you're just one of these guys 64 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 2: letting the day pass. 65 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 1: You back too many so we can just skip that. 66 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: That's right. 67 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 2: And he likes plumbs and coffee because I just watched him. 68 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: I like healthy eating. 69 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 2: I like health eating. So that's who you are. And 70 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,799 Speaker 2: then you wrote this book, which is why I really 71 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 2: gained interest in what you had to say. But first, 72 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 2: before we even get to why you wrote the book, 73 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 2: what the book's about that I think unfolds an enormous 74 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 2: amount of data points that really aligns with myfos. Explain 75 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 2: to us what fragile is and some of the work 76 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 2: you've done in places like Afghanistan and I think Nigeria, 77 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 2: to give us a basis for where we're going with 78 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 2: your book, and as it pertains to our culture here 79 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 2: in the US. 80 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: So for me, fragile is could be a community, could 81 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: be a society, could be a state. Group of people 82 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: that have very weak cohesion, they have a hard time 83 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: working with each other, or they could be isolated from 84 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: each other and they have no institutions to bring them together. 85 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: So imagine I work on Nigeria. It's one of the 86 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: countries I've worked on for many years. Here's a country 87 00:05:55,160 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: about two hundred and forty million people, has few pockets 88 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: to do well, mostly in the southern part of the country, 89 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: but the state doesn't work well. It had an awful 90 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: civil war in the late sixties. A few million people died. 91 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: A few million, that's a lot of people. The country 92 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: was much smaller than and it's a country in which 93 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: mostly that government institutions don't work. And all over the 94 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: country there's lots of disputes over who is this my land, 95 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: is this my mind, is this my resource? Whatever it 96 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: might be, between ethnic or religious groups or sometimes political actors, 97 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: sometimes armed actors, and there's no way to resolve the conflict. 98 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: So a fragile state, in terms of big picture we 99 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: took about a fragile neighborhood is a place in which 100 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 1: you're basically unstable. It's built into the way this place 101 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: is because of the lack of cohesion, lack of institutions. 102 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 1: It's just unstable. So what you get is you get violence, 103 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: you get social disorder, you get under development, not large 104 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: who wants to invest money. When you have that condition, 105 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: you'll have brain drain, so you have loads of problems. 106 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: And roughly, to look at the world, the world is 107 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: about two hundred countries. About one third of them are fragile. 108 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: I was just about to say about one third, so 109 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: a good part of Africa, but not all, a few 110 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: parts of Latin America, lots of the Middle East, and 111 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: then bleeding into places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Burma, places like that. 112 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: You got about one third of the world's countries that 113 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: are in my in my buckets, so to speak, that 114 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: you call fragile, that are fragile. I work on, I 115 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: work on, and I hear you say that, and I 116 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: think of some all you. I think of a very 117 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: nice country, by the way, but no government. I spent 118 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: some time there. 119 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 2: I've seen pictures of some all you, many many many 120 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 2: years ago. There were coastal areas that were vacation areas 121 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 2: and beautiful. 122 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: I mean, there's pockets of stability, but not because of 123 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: the central government. There's maybe an ethnic group in this 124 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: case as a klan that is very cohesive and that 125 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: part of the country works relatively well. But the country 126 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: as a whole, there's no government, which is, which is. 127 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 2: Like like you said, Afghanistan, places like Samaria in South America, 128 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 2: you know is Now would you now call Argentina Maybe 129 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 2: not Argentina, But what's a South American country? 130 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: Central South America. Haiti is the best exactly in the 131 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: western no government. And you have many countries in this 132 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 1: part of the world. They are nearly as fragile as 133 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: some of the examples I gave. But you can look 134 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: at places in Central America. I mean Colombia. Colombia is 135 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: a country with a pretty strong government, yet it doesn't 136 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:52,199 Speaker 1: control all of its territory. It's again fragile countries often 137 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: have mountains and jungles, and the government maybe even if 138 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: it's got some strength, it can't penetrate. Look at Venezuela. 139 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 2: Today, Venezuela. 140 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 1: Look at the problems of Ecuador, Peru. Even though they're 141 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: a bit stable, they're not so stable. Think of the 142 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:09,319 Speaker 1: Central America. We have a lot of countries that I 143 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: would say aren't nearly as bad with the acception of Haiti, 144 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: but have lots of elements of being fragile. Okay, and 145 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: you say you work there, I don't work in all 146 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: these countries. But there's like a group of people that 147 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: are so we specialists thinking about these things. I work 148 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: on a few of these countries, and I've been doing 149 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: work on big picture thinking in all these countries. 150 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:31,719 Speaker 2: Have you worked in Afghanistan? 151 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: I worked on Pakistan. I didn't work I worked on Pakistan. 152 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 2: Okay, So the reason I ask is interestingly to me, 153 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 2: And this is a completely uninformed comment. So butcher me 154 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 2: if I'm wrong. But I got my knife out. Yeah, 155 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 2: you got your knife out, or you can say yeah, Bill, 156 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 2: that's about right. It feels so many of these countries. 157 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 2: The little bit I've read a attom is they're all 158 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 2: in some way really tribal. And in that tribalness. Okay, 159 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,719 Speaker 2: I'm talking to a professor from Johns Hopkins and I 160 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 2: just used the word tribal diss I don't even Alex 161 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 2: google that real quick. See how big of an idiot 162 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 2: I am. But the tribal the culture of tribal cohesion 163 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 2: means that there is very little if your country is 164 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 2: made up of five or six or seven or eight 165 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 2: or nine or whatever different tribes or clans, that your 166 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 2: identity is central to that tribe and that clan, rather 167 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 2: than the commonwealth at large. Is it not then inherent 168 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 2: that you are going to have tons of conflict. 169 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:00,080 Speaker 1: Well, so there's a couple of there's so tribal and 170 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: this is I don't think we would use that term, 171 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: but it's a good term. What's the term I mean? 172 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: We again, every place is different, So you have ethnic 173 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: you have religious clan did even have regional divisions. So 174 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,199 Speaker 1: it's a form of you could say, it's like I 175 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: would call it fragmentation. Society is fragmented, it to pieces. 176 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: What brings it together if you have strong institutions and 177 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: we all accept the institutions, like you know, we have courts, 178 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: we have government that will distribute resources fairly, will arbitrate 179 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: disputes fairly. Well, maybe we're different, but we can accept 180 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: the rules. The real problem of makes a place fragile. 181 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: We're fragmented or fractured, and there's no rules we agree upon. 182 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: Therefore we all have a reason and incentive to fight 183 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: for power. Therefore the violence. So Afghanistan is a pretty 184 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: good example. The main way you get stabilities by rushing. 185 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: You basically have a group of people, which is what 186 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: you have now, the Taliban, they can agree among themselves 187 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: on what is an acceptable order and they repress everybody else, 188 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: and that's how that's that's where you end up. That's 189 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: not ideal. I don't advertise that. But places like Syria, 190 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: the moment you released the power of the government, you 191 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: had a vicious civil war and you had hundreds of 192 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: thousands of people died. And it wasn't just the government 193 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: against the opponents of the government. There were four or 194 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: five or six, who knows how many different groups all 195 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: fighting each other. It was like it was like chaos. 196 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: It was chaos. So that it's not everywhere. Turkey is 197 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: not so much like that. 198 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 2: Okay, well I almost think of it. 199 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: Egypt is not. Egypt is not so much like that. 200 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: Egypt is more or less it looks like it looked 201 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: four thousand years ago. So, but like Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, 202 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 1: I mean these countries, a lot of the country, Saudi 203 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: Arabia to a lesser extent, Libya. I work on Libya. 204 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: It could be tribal, it could be ethnic, it could 205 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: be religious, but it's just fractured and nothing brings people 206 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: together unless you're repressing your opponent. 207 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 2: To be honest, well, and it some it sounds like 208 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 2: those really hard to fix. 209 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: This problem is not. You cannot fix this problem in 210 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: anything but many generations. That's the key thing to remember. 211 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 2: The thing is, though the categories that you say leads 212 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 2: to fragility, to me seem like they overlap. I mean, 213 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 2: you've got religious and tribal in some cases. 214 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: I work in part of Nigeria. We chose that place 215 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: because it was religious and tribal, the most fractured part 216 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: of the whole country. That's the actually work in that 217 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 1: part of the country. 218 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 2: But to your point, this all leads to war. Violence. 219 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: It could violence, It can be in many cases, it's 220 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: low level violence. War is the worst case. 221 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 2: But okay, let's just say violence. Yes, Well, when people 222 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 2: are putting all their energy, money, and effort into violence, 223 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 2: they're not putting their energy effort into development. 224 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: And investment and investment exactly. 225 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 2: So you could argue then that fragility also leads to poverty. 226 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, Suffering, Yes. I think totally that these things 227 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: are all related, which will lead you to believe that 228 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: a prerequisite for any country to be successful is enough 229 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: social cohesion or enough good institutions that people can work together, 230 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: accept differences, accept winners and losers, and believe in the future. 231 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: So if a country doesn't have enough cohesion or some institutions, 232 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: it's not going to work. And that's always been my conclusion. 233 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: So part of my work is always what mechanisms can 234 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: we create, whether it's more cohesion or it's some mechanism 235 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: where people will work together because they accept some rules 236 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: or some institutions that allow them to move forward together. Always, 237 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: that's the key issue that I work on constantly, one 238 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: of those two entry points, and then you could break 239 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: it into different ways, because if you don't have both, 240 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: you have chaos basically. 241 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 2: And now a few messages from our gender sponsors, But 242 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 2: first I hope you'll consider signing up to join the 243 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 2: army at normal folks dot us. By signing up, you'll 244 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 2: receive a weekly email with short episode summaries in case 245 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 2: you happen to miss an episode, or if you prefer 246 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 2: reading about our incredible guests. We'll be right back as 247 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 2: I listen to you. And again, this is uninformed me 248 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 2: hearing you out's pretty informed. It seems to me you 249 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 2: can even have regional fragility that is greater than even 250 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 2: the boundaries of a country, because I look at Russia 251 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 2: and Eastern Europe and Ukraine seems to me. The Russia 252 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 2: Ukraine thing seems to me to be part of fragility 253 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 2: because there's one group of people Russia who think something 254 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 2: about the bread basket of Eastern Europe Ukraine as having 255 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 2: always been part of Russia. And then you have people 256 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 2: in Ukraine who are devout about their independence, and that 257 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 2: lack of cohesion then leads to fragility. 258 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: Well, to keep the concept bounded, to keep the councept 259 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: within limits, we mostly think about it within terms of 260 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: a place, so I a country level or within a community. 261 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: I think that in that sense, fragility makes sense. When 262 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: you talk about inter country war, I mean, think World 263 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: War Two. We fought the Nazis, we fought the Japanese. 264 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: I don't think we would call that fragility. That's simply 265 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: fighting for territory, for power, for resources. So in Russia 266 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, I was in I had to say, 267 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 1: I was in Ukraine in December. Incredibly cohesive country, incredibly 268 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: great experience that it's it's hard to believe that the energy, 269 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 1: the dynamism in this place, that the talent that rises 270 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: in the war to lead the country is compared to 271 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 1: some of the talent that rises to lead our country. 272 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 1: Quite a contrast, because I don't think they would be 273 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: surviving without the right talent. But I would just say 274 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: that it's it's quite different in that respect. And I 275 00:17:55,200 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: wouldn't say I wouldn't consider most inter country war situations 276 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 1: to be fragility. It can be spillover. Look at the 277 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: Middle East. The problems in Syrias spill over into Lebanon, 278 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: the problems of Iraq spill over to Syria, the problems 279 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: in sen and like the Sahel part of Africa. They 280 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: all spill over into each other. So that can be 281 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: fragility crossing boundaries. But just two countries fighting for land, 282 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 1: I wouldn't consider that fragility. That's simply that's simply humanity's 283 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: long standing fight for power and resources which we see 284 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: throughout history and good. 285 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 2: So that distinction I think matters, all right. 286 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: So and I'll say that the fact that you focus 287 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: on that, when you focus you say you're not you're 288 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 1: not an expert. I would say, what makes my work 289 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 1: always has been different is that the experts, often the 290 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: people who study this stuff, or the people who often 291 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 1: lead these organizations, they often are looking for a technical 292 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: answer or a policy answer, and you go to the 293 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,919 Speaker 1: heart of the matter that it's actually the tribalism that 294 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,959 Speaker 1: divides people. And for me, that's always been obvious, but 295 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: it's not necessarily what a lot of people think about 296 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: these places. But it does seem obvious. It does seem obvious. 297 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 1: I mean, I lived among the people, I lived in 298 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: homes and everything, and it's just so obvious. But it's 299 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: not obvious if you're the United Nations or if you're 300 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: some government agency trying to help the place. There's an 301 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: assumption that all can be like us, and I think 302 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: that's part of the failure. People are not all like us. 303 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 2: Well that's a bureaucracy that slows down enterprise, rentor car 304 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 2: in the Washington airport. 305 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, if those people were working on it, probably 306 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 1: that would be yes. 307 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 2: All right, Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, I think a lot 308 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 2: of times we miss common sense. But to me, you know, 309 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 2: we're human beings. There's still some very pomal stuff that's 310 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 2: part of our DNA, and we were at the onset 311 00:19:55,160 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 2: of mankind clannish, and I think part of intellectual, emotional 312 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 2: and societal maturity and intelligence is being able to see 313 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 2: pasture clan at the humanity of the other clan. And 314 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 2: it seems to me that when you lack that capability 315 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 2: lead to travelism and thus fragility. Now there's a really 316 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 2: uninformed person's synopsis, but it feels like that has some 317 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 2: validity to it. 318 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 1: Well, I would say yes, except if you think of nationalism, 319 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking of a positive version of nationalism, because 320 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: it doesn't always be positive. But as as humans, it 321 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: does help if we belong to groups, we recognize our 322 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 1: membership in groups. I mean, my work in America is 323 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 1: very much focused on the fact is that we've lost 324 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: our communities. Oh oh, I'm spoiler of art. I'm jumping. 325 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: But if you think about it on now national level, 326 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: the real challenges is how to translate the tribalism of 327 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: the ethnic group to the tribalism of the nation. Because 328 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: to an extent that people are loyal to the country, 329 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: they will sacrifice to make their country better, they will 330 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: build the institutions, they will make the investments, they will 331 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: stop being corrupt, and that that is the way out 332 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: of fragility. But it's a different form of tribalism. But 333 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: I would say a tribalism that benefits the country. 334 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 2: Right, But that provides that you see yourself as a 335 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 2: member of a big tent tribe versus these much smaller 336 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 2: groups we seem to divide ourselves into. But hang on 337 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 2: for you go there. So that gives everybody listening a 338 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:52,479 Speaker 2: really really cool background for some questions that you were asked, 339 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 2: which I think precipitated you write in a book. Yes, 340 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 2: tell me about. 341 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 1: That, well, I wrote, I wrote this book. I mean, 342 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 1: if you went to Washington, d C. Even today, if 343 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: you go, most people will know me as the Fragile 344 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 1: States person. Not many people go around. That's probably not 345 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: because they think I'm in a fragile state because some people, 346 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: some people might say, I have kids. If you ever 347 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 1: see me with some of my kids, my middle kid 348 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: who's just about to turn six, a boy who's the 349 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: best at destroying the house, and so you can see 350 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 1: me in those moments. Yet I'm thinking yesterday morning, trying 351 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 1: to get him to learn a little bit of reading 352 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: that we have a little bit every day we try 353 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: to learn. And he really had me in a fragile 354 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: state so we could talk about that. I felt, this 355 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 1: is the hardest thing. Helping a country is not as 356 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: hard as taking care of your kids. Sometimes. But I'll 357 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 1: just say that twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, everybody knows me 358 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,479 Speaker 1: fragile state's person. And then over and over again I 359 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: was being asked, is or could become in a fragile state? 360 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 2: That's all the time out. That is so fascinating that 361 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 2: we have arguably the strongest country on earth and arguably 362 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 2: the most impressive advent of a republic in the history 363 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 2: of humankind. Yet you were being asked for a fragile state. 364 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:33,640 Speaker 2: That to me speaks volumes about our national concern for ourselves. 365 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 2: Just the question itself is telling Yes. 366 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: I mean I took it as partly in jest and 367 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: partly a product of deep anxiety. And it didn't happen once. 368 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: It happened seven or eight times again. I'm in Washington, 369 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: where people are thinking, they're thinking a little bit different 370 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 1: than somebody might be thinking elsewhere in the country. But 371 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: the fact is they were looking at our election. They 372 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: were looking at what is going on. Let's be let's 373 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: be honest. It's tied to what was going on in 374 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 1: that election cycle. They were nervous, and here we are. 375 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: We are actually not a fragile state. And one of 376 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: the easiest way to look at a fragile state is 377 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: are people coming? Are people going? A country that's very 378 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: fragile will have people trying to leave. And here we 379 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 1: are in the United States, where if you fully opened 380 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: the door, you would have millions of not tens of 381 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: millions of people coming across the border or flying into 382 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: our airports. So we are not viewed as being fragile. 383 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 1: We have great technology, we have great companies, great institutions. 384 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 1: Our constitution has run uninterrupted. And I love to remind 385 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: the Americans whenever they asked me, am I worried? I 386 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 1: tell them to recall the eighteen sixty four election when 387 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:50,959 Speaker 1: we were in the middle of this deep, deep civil 388 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,719 Speaker 1: war and we still ran an election and Lincoln almost lost. 389 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 1: And so we don't stop our elections. And our system 390 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: worked for all of its flaws and all the things 391 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 1: you want to complain about it. And so for me, 392 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: we're anything but fragile. Except people are seeing things in 393 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 1: this country that scare them, that they can't understand. And 394 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: I know they're thinking politics, But if you ask me, 395 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: politics are always downstreamed from society. If you want to 396 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: know what's on in society, look at the drug overdoses. 397 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,959 Speaker 1: Look at the anxiety, look at the loneliness, look at 398 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 1: the mistrust, look at the people screaming at each other. 399 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: It's a little crazy, and it does tell you that 400 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: something is ill in our society. And so that's the 401 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: journey I set off. I set off like I do 402 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: anytime I go to a country. I wandered. I read 403 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: lots of books. I mean dozens of books. My wife 404 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: did not want that extra bookcase in the living room, 405 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 1: but I have a whole bookcase of books, just the research. 406 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: Whatever the fifty books I read, and whatever books I 407 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: at least looked at, but then by and I wandered 408 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: the country. I mean, for me, learning a place is 409 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: not about only intellectual. There needs to be a synthesis 410 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: between intellectual and getting out there and being amongst the people. 411 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: So that means going to lots of places, talking to 412 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 1: lots of people, hearing people out, and then finding your 413 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 1: way to where you think you can be most valuable 414 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: and where you think the source of the problem is 415 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: always society is upstream from politics. If people tell you 416 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: something from other politics, ask them, what do you think 417 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 1: is wrong with our society? 418 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 2: So that question is what led you to write the book. 419 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: Yes, and let me to write the book. And the 420 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: big difference between. 421 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 2: The question, to be clear, yes, is a marriage. Hey, 422 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 2: you're the fragile guy. You're the fragile nations guy. You're 423 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 2: the one who studies it and talks about it, Johns. 424 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 2: Hopkins and all these other places from the World Bank 425 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 2: to you know, the Institute for Integrated Transitions and the 426 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 2: US Department. So you're kind of like the fragile state, 427 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 2: fragile area guy. Thing. You get asked are we becoming fragile? 428 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 2: Or are we fragile? And you, because you're asked that 429 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 2: over and over again, decide to write Fragile Neighborhoods replacing 430 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 2: repairing American siety one zip code at a time. The 431 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 2: title itself, you say to me, America is not fragile, 432 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 2: but the title it seth says we could be if 433 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 2: we don't fix it. 434 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: Well, yes, if we continue on our current path, I 435 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: think our problems will get worse and worse. Having said that, 436 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: when I look at the country as a whole, my 437 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: worry is not the type of tribalism I see in 438 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: Nigeria or Libya or Somalia. I see something much closer 439 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: to the home. If you go to those countries, there's 440 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: a stark difference between the local and the national. When 441 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: you go local, you see such close bonds, You see 442 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: strong community at the local level. You see lots of 443 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: people cooperating, helping each other, knowing each other, trusting each other. 444 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: What they lack is something above the local. And when 445 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: you come to America and you take a step back 446 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: and you think we have all these social problems. I mean, 447 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 1: we could just list out ten social problems. I touched 448 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: upon a few, and we have to ask ourselves, two 449 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: generations ago, we did not have these problems. We had 450 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: other problems. The country has never been perfect, and problems 451 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: of race, problems of inequality. We go on and on 452 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: with our problems, but we didn't have the types of 453 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: social problems we have now two generations ago. So given that, 454 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: for me, the single most important lens when you want 455 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: to go on interest in a country, you got to 456 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: look at the relationships. I'm a big believer in relationships. 457 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: I'm a big believer in the social will tell us 458 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: of the bigger picture. And so whenever I go to 459 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: a country, I'm looking at how are the relationships, what 460 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: are the nature of how people are treating each other locally, nationally, 461 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: different parts of society, and in America, you have to 462 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: ask what has changed in two generations to our relationships 463 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: that have created the sot slew of problems? And to me, 464 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: that is where I go to the neighborhood, because I 465 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: believe the biggest difference is not national. We see the 466 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: end result nationally, but the big difference is the emptying out, 467 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: thevoiding out almost of so many local institutions and relationships 468 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: since that many of us we live on a desert 469 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: island called our house, and we have nothing that brings 470 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: us together, so we don't spend time with other people. 471 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: It's even worse with the phones, but it started long 472 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: before the phones. We'll be right back. 473 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 2: As I read through some of your stuff, and I 474 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 2: want you to add color to it and add to them, 475 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 2: because I'm sure I'm missing some. In twenty twenty two, 476 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 2: more than two hundred thousand people died from alcohol, drugs, 477 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 2: or suicide. Suicide rates rose by thirty five percent just 478 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 2: the last two decades, higher than any other country on Earth. 479 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: I think probably the developed world that developed development. 480 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 2: By twenty twenty two, the rates of deaths of despair 481 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 2: among middle aged blacks had nearly tripled. For one hundred thousand, 482 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 2: twelve percent of the elderly population is having issues. Twelfth graders, 483 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 2: fifty percent hung out with their friends almost daily, dropped 484 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 2: to twenty five percent at twenty seventeen. Here's one that 485 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 2: shocked me. It shouldn't have shocked me, but I get 486 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 2: why it's so important. Thirty percent of people eat family dinner, 487 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 2: record only thirty percent now and it had to have 488 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 2: been seventy percent twenty five thirty years ago. But so 489 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 2: that's some build on that. What I'm saying is before 490 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 2: we go on to the to the to what I 491 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 2: agree completely with you, which is the relationship change, let's 492 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 2: make the case with the data points to our listeners 493 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 2: to understand really what has changed the last twenty years 494 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 2: more of those or expand upon those. 495 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: Okay, First, I would say, when I talk about neighborhoods, 496 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: I think we could talk about There's two sources of 497 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: fragility that I'm focused on. One of them is that 498 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 1: there are many neighborhoods and even parts of the United 499 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: States in which simply because you live there, you are 500 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: greatly disadvantaged. I would say yes, we continue to have 501 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: lots of problems with race, but actually the data is 502 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: says now that your place based inequality, some of that 503 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: is race, but not all of it is greater. So 504 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 1: what I mean is, if you're in eastern Kentucky, if 505 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: you're in some of the worst neighborhoods in Memphis and 506 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: some parts of Native American reservations, you know, you could 507 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: go some parts of the world South, whatever it is, 508 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: there are literally there's a place based inequality that's affecting 509 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: tens of millions of Americans, and those places are literally 510 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: disconnected from everything. And so that is and in fact, 511 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: what has happened dramatically since nineteen seventy is people who 512 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: are better off moved to some neighborhoods and they leave basically, 513 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: and they we're concentrating the poor people and concentrating disadvantage 514 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: groups in particular places. So if you hear people being 515 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: frustrated and angry over what is going on in this country, 516 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 1: it's partly because we don't live together anymore of separate, 517 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,719 Speaker 1: and that is true everywhere in the country. 518 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 2: Do you think school bussing and some of that also 519 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 2: played a role in that, because I do. 520 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 1: We could talk about it. I'm in general favor of 521 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: neighborhood schools because neighborhood schools are one of the best 522 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: incubators to take kids out of your neighborhood. We can 523 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: talk about that. Of course, if you were going to 524 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: do that, you would have to make a much stronger 525 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: effort to ensure that every school was good and sold. 526 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: That could have been an alternative approach. And I can see, 527 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: you know, when it comes to issues that are very political, 528 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: I can see both sides of the story, and I 529 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: don't want to privilege one over the other. But if 530 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: you're thinking about it from a community lens, clearly neighborhood 531 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 1: schools have a lot of benefits, especially if the schools 532 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: are good, because good schools attract people to good neighborhoods. 533 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: And what we do now is we actually chase the 534 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: most talented people of bad neighborhoods because we encourage them. 535 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: We help a few people, and they leave, and we 536 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 1: even think of moving up as moving out, and that 537 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 1: means that we're concentrating everyone else who didn't get in 538 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: the game, so to speak, in these places and were 539 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: making it harder to make them better. So that's one 540 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 1: whole area I'm talking about, and you have a lot 541 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:24,800 Speaker 1: of practical life experience in this area. 542 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 2: You're exactly right. People who raise themselves up vanish, and 543 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:36,240 Speaker 2: it leaves food deserts, and it leaves schools without booster 544 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 2: clubs because the people that are or parental involvement in school, 545 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 2: because the people who can leave, and so it perpetuates 546 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 2: this downward propulsion of these difficult areas because the money 547 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 2: and the talent continues to get sucked out of them 548 00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 2: to quote better areas. And then the other thing that 549 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:06,800 Speaker 2: I think what you just said makes just unbelievable sense 550 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 2: and agrees with what my practical experience is is that 551 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:18,240 Speaker 2: as as the community school breaks down and people start 552 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 2: going to schools all over the place, when they come 553 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 2: back to their homes, there is no sense of community. 554 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 2: There's not a community. You go to Miland, Tennessee. 555 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 1: We go to different schools. We don't know each other. 556 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: Jarents don't know each other. 557 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 2: You go to Miland, Tennessee or McKenzie, Tennessee. I can 558 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 2: name you one hundred little towns all over West Tennessee 559 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 2: that I have coached against in football On Friday, the 560 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 2: whole school, the whole The whole city shuts down at 561 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 2: like two thirty, and there's three thousand people at the 562 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 2: football games. Because all their kids go to that same 563 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,720 Speaker 2: high school. They have a strong community. They are so 564 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 2: proud of there. And those kids grow up seeing the 565 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 2: two generations above them shutting down their businesses on Friday night, 566 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 2: sco in the games, hanging out the flag of the 567 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 2: school in front of their and it perpetuates generally, generationally 568 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 2: a sense of community, a sense of pride in that community. Well, 569 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 2: you go into more urban areas where people are shipped out, 570 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,840 Speaker 2: bust out, shipped off, going to different schools, The talent 571 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,240 Speaker 2: and the money is being yanked out of those areas. 572 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 2: You're taking the talent and money out, which perpetuates a 573 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 2: lack of growth, and then you're actually exporting people to 574 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 2: different places. When they do come back together, there is 575 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 2: absolutely no community. 576 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,800 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, we have to understand why they started 577 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 1: the busting. I mean, segregation not left a heavy problem, 578 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 1: So the busting there was a logic to it. I 579 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:05,359 Speaker 1: do believe if you're trying to make places succeed, you 580 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: have to encourage investment. That's not only financial investment. That 581 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: means talent. You have to have a talent retention, a 582 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 1: talent attraction strategy for a place to thrive. And to 583 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: the extent that we encourage the best and the brightest 584 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,760 Speaker 1: to take their resources, to take their talent and to leave, 585 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: we basically made those places worse. And then we did 586 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: it over and over and over again for fifty years. 587 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,280 Speaker 1: And so that's why you have many parts of cities 588 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 1: that are doing so badly and for me, the tragedies 589 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 1: all the people living there. And so the only way 590 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,480 Speaker 1: you're going to reverse that is by thinking about how 591 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,800 Speaker 1: do you encourage You talk about supermarkets, you talk about 592 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: local businesses, you talk about third places, places to go 593 00:37:55,520 --> 00:38:00,800 Speaker 1: and meet people, cafes, strong local schools, housing that people 594 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: want to live in. If these neighborhoods would have those things, 595 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 1: maybe the cycle would be reversed and some of these 596 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: neighborhoods would be attractive and over a period of time 597 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 1: the whole dynamic would shift. But again it has to 598 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,799 Speaker 1: be you have to love your neighborhood as people love 599 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 1: their town, and you have to have a lot of 600 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: things in your neighborhood that are good that you want 601 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,800 Speaker 1: to build or invest your own energy in. As well. 602 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 2: I first of all, just a sad note. I think 603 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:41,879 Speaker 2: there are hundreds of well intentioned, originally designed policy and 604 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 2: stuff that as our society develops, sometimes either outlives or 605 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 2: usefulness or needs tweaking. So don't misunderstand what I'm saying 606 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 2: about Bud. Yes, I agree, I get why. Yeah, I 607 00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 2: am just saying in hindsight, now you can certainly see 608 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:07,319 Speaker 2: how while what it was about originally certainly was a 609 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:11,360 Speaker 2: civil rights era issue, that we were working hard and 610 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 2: we are. We are failed. We we we we fail often, 611 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 2: but one of the beautiful things about America is we 612 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 2: keep trying. And so you know, I get it. So 613 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 2: don't misunderstand what I'm saying about Bussing. I'm just saying 614 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 2: that if you think about community and some of our 615 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 2: most impoverished, most needy communities, it also plays a role 616 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 2: in it, is all I'm saying. 617 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: I think so, I think we have a lot. The 618 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,839 Speaker 1: problem is we have we have ideas that were right 619 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 1: for a time that and we don't change our We 620 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: don't change our ideas because once the let's I hate 621 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: to say it, once the gravy train of the government 622 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,759 Speaker 1: starts up, it's really hard to get off the hard 623 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: That's that's like a Washington expression when you want to 624 00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 1: get on the gravy train because it never stops. Agreed, 625 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: and so so yeah, so so if we talk about fragility, 626 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,560 Speaker 1: I think one thing is what we've done to some neighborhoods. 627 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 1: Some of it's just market forces. If you are in 628 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,840 Speaker 1: eastern Kentucky over these years, I mean again it's it 629 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,359 Speaker 1: is government policy and other things that played a role. 630 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: But the economy became so bad because of the coal 631 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:24,680 Speaker 1: mines and everything else, everyone with talent left and you 632 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,400 Speaker 1: have a very depressing situation. So there's different places have 633 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: different reasons. But we have a country that's very uneven 634 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,960 Speaker 1: in terms of who's thriving. And it depends a lot 635 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 1: upon where you go to school, depends a lot about 636 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: where you grow up, it depends upon what kind of 637 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,080 Speaker 1: work you have, and it's really not it hasn't been 638 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,759 Speaker 1: a country that's that's really fair for a lot of 639 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 1: people in places. And so I buy that argument. I 640 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,000 Speaker 1: don't buy most of what people do about it. For me, 641 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:53,840 Speaker 1: the only way to do something about it is to 642 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,560 Speaker 1: make sure every place is a flourishing place. Okay, so 643 00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,239 Speaker 1: you said fragility is too such. That's one. 644 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:04,720 Speaker 2: That's one disadvantage. Yes, neighborhoods which we've exhausted. 645 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 1: That, yes, get it. What's number too. So the second 646 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 1: one is what I think we talked about a little 647 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:12,320 Speaker 1: bit before about is the gross disconnection that we've experienced. 648 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 1: If you look at them data. Let's give some data here, 649 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:19,400 Speaker 1: the peak is nineteen sixty four, and then from nineteen 650 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 1: sixty four until today, you have this downward trajectory in 651 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,240 Speaker 1: which people become more and more separated from one another. 652 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,279 Speaker 1: You talked about food deserts. I use this term called 653 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,719 Speaker 1: institutional deserts. You could be in a neighborhood and there's 654 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:37,400 Speaker 1: not a single neighborhood unique institution. If you go back 655 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 1: two generations ago, or you go to some small town 656 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 1: that you might have mentioned, or if you go to minor, 657 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 1: but just think of mine. My neighborhood is incredibly flourishing. 658 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,399 Speaker 1: We have three of our own restaurants, we have a supermarket, 659 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,880 Speaker 1: we have a pharmacy, a little bit less connected, we 660 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,640 Speaker 1: have places of houses of worship, we have civic associations. 661 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,439 Speaker 1: My oldest is going to be in seventh grade. Three 662 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: quarters of her classmates live within walking distance of our house, 663 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,839 Speaker 1: which means she goes and visits them. So we have 664 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:12,800 Speaker 1: community schools, community restaurants, community shopping, community places to worship, 665 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,919 Speaker 1: we have community civic associations, we have community My daughter 666 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 1: she goes place clarinet. So there's like a music thing, 667 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,400 Speaker 1: not very big, not very impressive, but it's got like 668 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,440 Speaker 1: twenty kids from the neighborhood. My son goes to play 669 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,919 Speaker 1: sports whatever, soccer this time, baseball, that time, whatever it is, basketball, 670 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,359 Speaker 1: mostly people from the community. So you got loads and 671 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 1: loads of these things going on. And that means that 672 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,080 Speaker 1: I know hundreds of people in my neighborhood. My neighborhood 673 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 1: has a clear identity. We have like WhatsApp groups where 674 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 1: we're sharing stories, and I could give you a hundred 675 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:51,959 Speaker 1: stories from my neighborhood of people doing things for each other. 676 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,480 Speaker 1: And just think how different that is than most of 677 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 1: America right now. So this whole second thing is is 678 00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,400 Speaker 1: that we live in places where we have have no 679 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: reason and we have no opportunity, and therefore we don't 680 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: really have an inclination to know each other. And we 681 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 1: might have some network and some friends, but a lot 682 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 1: of us are not good at that and a lot 683 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:18,399 Speaker 1: of us become lonely isolated. We're not practicing relationships, we're 684 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,480 Speaker 1: not working together to do anything to make the country better. 685 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,359 Speaker 1: We all used to belong to something and we used 686 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 1: to do something, and now mostly we don't. And that, 687 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,480 Speaker 1: to me is one of the tragedies of this age, 688 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:36,759 Speaker 1: is how much we've disconnected us from each other. And 689 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,719 Speaker 1: so one of the big questions which I work on, 690 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,360 Speaker 1: is how how do you build a society of connection, 691 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,799 Speaker 1: of where each place matters and where every place has 692 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 1: lots of opportunities institutions for people to belong to contribute 693 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,840 Speaker 1: to build up the place. And if our country was 694 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,080 Speaker 1: like that, what would we think different about our place, 695 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:00,400 Speaker 1: in our in our Sossis society. 696 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:06,160 Speaker 2: When I hear you talk about your neighborhood, I hear safety. 697 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,240 Speaker 1: Yes, you feel safe because you can always. My daughter 698 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:13,320 Speaker 1: walks down like whatever, twenty minutes she has a problem, 699 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:15,560 Speaker 1: she just has to run up a knock on the door, 700 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,560 Speaker 1: and there's a fifty percent chance that we will know 701 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 1: the neighbor. To be honest, that that even if it's 702 00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:22,000 Speaker 1: ten to fifteen minutes away. 703 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:28,040 Speaker 2: Under Weslo's hierarchy of needs, right below food, water and shelter. 704 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:29,200 Speaker 1: Safety. 705 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:34,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, safety, and it's ultimately what every human being wants. 706 00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,520 Speaker 2: But it's it's also when I hear you talk about 707 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,640 Speaker 2: it from your children's perspective, it's another kind of safety. 708 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:42,920 Speaker 2: I hear an emotional safety. 709 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,440 Speaker 1: Emotional safety. So I'm going to let me give you 710 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,759 Speaker 1: an example. I'm going to give you. I'll give you 711 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:52,200 Speaker 1: two stories. One a personal story, one not so personal story. 712 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,960 Speaker 1: Is several years ago, my son was probably about a 713 00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,080 Speaker 1: year year and a half old, she's six now about 714 00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:02,799 Speaker 1: to be six, and my daughter had carried him out 715 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,719 Speaker 1: of the car. Imagine the driveway, walked up towards our 716 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,440 Speaker 1: front door, some cement and dropped him on it and 717 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,840 Speaker 1: he landed on his chin, and imagine his chin is bleeding, 718 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,360 Speaker 1: and the two parents are there and like this is awful, 719 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,439 Speaker 1: and you're immediately frightened. As his whole life he's ruined out. 720 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:22,520 Speaker 1: His whole life is ruined by his whole face. He 721 00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,320 Speaker 1: is gonna have a permanent scar. What is my wife? 722 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,200 Speaker 1: That my wife picks him up, doesn't speak to anybody 723 00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:31,640 Speaker 1: and runs down the street, doesn't call the ambulance, doesn't 724 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,560 Speaker 1: call an ambulance, doesn't even tell me where she's going, 725 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,680 Speaker 1: comes back forty minutes later, completely bandaged up. Why she 726 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,640 Speaker 1: knew exactly where the closest nurse was and as it 727 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:45,000 Speaker 1: turns out, well, the nurse about three blocks away. There's 728 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 1: a nurse and as it turns out, in our neighborhood. 729 00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,200 Speaker 1: Because we've had various challenges over the year, we must 730 00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:56,520 Speaker 1: know at least ten doctors, medical people, somebody that you 731 00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:00,719 Speaker 1: can go to. I can recall whatever three four weeks ago. 732 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,719 Speaker 1: I also have a baby. The baby was just throwing up. 733 00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:07,480 Speaker 1: What do we do? How much do we worry about it? 734 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,399 Speaker 1: There's another nurse about half a block away. I think 735 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,960 Speaker 1: she's not practicing. She wouldn't be someone we would normally 736 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:14,759 Speaker 1: go to, but we just go to for this type 737 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,480 Speaker 1: of question, and she says, you better look at her, 738 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,200 Speaker 1: you better take her to urgent care. So then we 739 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,719 Speaker 1: go to urgent care, but not without making sure we 740 00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:23,920 Speaker 1: really need to go to urgent care. I can, so 741 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,799 Speaker 1: I can think of lots of experiences like that where 742 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:31,880 Speaker 1: we just practical need something immediately we had just and 743 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 1: you don't have to actually be friends with these people. 744 00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:37,680 Speaker 1: That's the key. We think of friendship, and then we 745 00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,880 Speaker 1: think a professional and my neighbor. There's hundreds of people 746 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,759 Speaker 1: that i'm some of them are friends, hundreds of them. 747 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,120 Speaker 1: I just know. I might talk to them, i might 748 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,400 Speaker 1: say hello to them, i might just say smile at 749 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,120 Speaker 1: them or whatever, good morning. But they're there. And if 750 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,319 Speaker 1: somebody knocks on my door and I knock on their door, 751 00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:56,960 Speaker 1: we're there for each other. And there's loads of little things. 752 00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,960 Speaker 1: Let me give a second story. I was in Denver 753 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,359 Speaker 1: giving a talk. I think this is probably the end 754 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,560 Speaker 1: of last October, November something like that, and I already 755 00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,640 Speaker 1: finished my talk middle of the daytime, and I'm hanging 756 00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:11,319 Speaker 1: out at this whatever one and one day one half 757 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,040 Speaker 1: day conference and waiting. I had a few hours before 758 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,279 Speaker 1: my flight, and I'm on these WhatsApp groups back in 759 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,799 Speaker 1: my neighborhood. I'm on like whatever. I'm on a lot 760 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,120 Speaker 1: of them. Mostly I don't pay too much attention. But 761 00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:25,239 Speaker 1: there was one that came up and said, said, my 762 00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:29,640 Speaker 1: child is missing. And the child wasn't so young, so 763 00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:31,799 Speaker 1: she wasn't so worried. But I had been missing for 764 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:35,560 Speaker 1: a while and they were worried about it becoming nighttime. 765 00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,680 Speaker 1: It was whatever, it was probably I don't know, three whatever. 766 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:44,040 Speaker 1: The time was I need help, And immediately about you 767 00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:46,480 Speaker 1: have text back and forth, back and forth. They say, 768 00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:50,919 Speaker 1: let's set up another WhatsApp group just to help volunteers 769 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,160 Speaker 1: please shift, and I'm there in Denver. I was not 770 00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,839 Speaker 1: going to be helpful, but I was really curious, so 771 00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,640 Speaker 1: I joined this group. And you had about twenty people 772 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,880 Speaker 1: crowded into this group. And they merely says we're going 773 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:03,920 Speaker 1: to go off and look for this kid. And they 774 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:07,000 Speaker 1: went off in every direction. So this this person's going here, 775 00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:10,359 Speaker 1: We're surrounded three sides, resurrounded by woods. There's a bunch 776 00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:12,200 Speaker 1: of streets coming in, but were surrounded by woods on 777 00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:14,920 Speaker 1: three sides, and they were going off, mostly into the 778 00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:17,640 Speaker 1: woods to look some of them up the streets. And 779 00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:22,600 Speaker 1: within ninety minutes they find the kid and then they're texting, 780 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:24,960 Speaker 1: I need help. I went too far. I'm a mile away. 781 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,680 Speaker 1: Can somebody picked me up? And that whole story is 782 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:31,799 Speaker 1: done in several hours. Think what might have happened if 783 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,760 Speaker 1: she didn't have the neighbors probably would have called the police. 784 00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,200 Speaker 1: In the first case, we would have called an ambulance 785 00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 1: or run someplace. So that these are great examples of 786 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:45,960 Speaker 1: when you have strong collectiveness and people are in a 787 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,480 Speaker 1: relationship with each other and they feel they're there for 788 00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:53,520 Speaker 1: each other. It just transforms your life hundreds of times, 789 00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:57,040 Speaker 1: even in a daily or weekly basis. I can give 790 00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:04,520 Speaker 1: you stories of problems averted, problem solved, feeling of safety. 791 00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:08,080 Speaker 1: I would even say, a feeling of joy when you 792 00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:11,359 Speaker 1: walk down Maybe it's the Moslow's hierarchy of needs. I 793 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,600 Speaker 1: feel a feeling of joy going down my street, not 794 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,960 Speaker 1: because I think things are perfect, but because I know 795 00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:20,719 Speaker 1: who's behind the doors. I know I'm going to bump 796 00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,279 Speaker 1: into a person. It just changes your whole perspective on 797 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,600 Speaker 1: life when you live in this type of ner. But 798 00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,440 Speaker 1: I believe this was the norm. Two generations that go 799 00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:31,480 Speaker 1: for most people. 800 00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:40,680 Speaker 2: And that concludes Part one of my conversation with Seth Kaplan, 801 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,399 Speaker 2: and you don't want to miss part two that's now 802 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:47,320 Speaker 2: available to listen to you together, guys, we can change 803 00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,560 Speaker 2: this country, but it starts with you. I'll see in 804 00:49:50,640 --> 00:50:03,040 Speaker 2: part two. Sh