1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. So many people nowadays 2 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:26,639 Speaker 1: give young folks the advice follow your passion. I don't 3 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: necessarily believe that advice. I think you should choose something 4 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,279 Speaker 1: that you can make a living at, and then in 5 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: your off time, you follow your passion. But today we're 6 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,160 Speaker 1: going to take a look at a guy that did, 7 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,959 Speaker 1: in fact follow a passion that he has. A matter 8 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: of fact, he followed it all over the United States 9 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: and it led him down some very very dark paths. 10 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, it let him down a 11 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: path that wound up terminating at a location where he 12 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: was infamously crowned as perhaps the most prolific serial killer 13 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: the United States has ever known. Today, we're going to 14 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about Samuel Little serial killer who 15 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: is now since passed on. But more importantly, we're going 16 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: to talk about one of his victims, a victim that 17 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: has remained unidentified since nineteen seventy seven. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, 18 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: and this is Body Bags. Dave Mack is with me. 19 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: He's a senior crime reporter for Crime Online. Dave, I'm 20 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: gonna throw a trick question at you here. It's not 21 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: really a trick question. It's something you gotta kind of 22 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: dig back through your files. I want to see if 23 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: you can, off the top of your head, give me 24 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: an idea as to how many states the United States 25 00:01:58,080 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: you've visited. 26 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 2: May he's seventeen eighteen eight maybe. 27 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: Twenty seventeen eighteen. Okay, what's the area of the country 28 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: that you probably have the least amount of experience with 29 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:09,679 Speaker 1: traveling to. 30 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 2: Let's see the from like Wyoming, Montana, Oregon, Washington State, 31 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 2: that area when you go up to towards Canada. I 32 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 2: got nothing there. 33 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: It's kind of the opposite for me. I've been up 34 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: in those areas, but I've never been to the Northeastern 35 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: corridor further north than well, you know I have, I 36 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: mean I have. But the places i'd really like to go, 37 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 1: like Maine in Vermont and New Hampshire and upstate New York, 38 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: you know, particularly in the fall. I think that's a 39 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: lot of people out there at least that's a dream 40 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: trip for them. 41 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 2: If you've never been, you need to go now. 42 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: I would love to, I really would. And that's that's 43 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: something that my wife and I are passionate about. I mean, 44 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: it is, you know, I talked about, you know, following 45 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: passions and that sort of thing. We love travel. I 46 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: think about all of the money I wasted on my 47 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: kids when they were growing up going to amusement parks 48 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: of all things, and our life and their lives became 49 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 1: so much more rich when we finally took them to 50 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: Great Britain and started going there and taking side trips 51 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: and those sorts of things. And it was I think 52 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: and lament the fact. But you know, today's topic on 53 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: bodybags is actually Samuel Little. And Samuel Little's been gone 54 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: now for a couple of years, I guess, and he 55 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: allegedly the most prolific serial killer to date, as many 56 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: as ninety three homicides. A lot of this rest in 57 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: fact that he admitted to so many, so many deaths 58 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: and had an interesting way of recalling them. Have you 59 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: heard very much about Samuel Lyttle, Dave. 60 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 2: I have actually done a couple of shows on him 61 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 2: and his paintings and things. But you mentioned the most 62 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 2: prolific serial killer in the in US history. When you 63 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 2: look at some of these prolific serial killers, I tend 64 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 2: to lean towards Henry Lee Lucas that probably lied about 65 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 2: two thirds of what he did, whereas in the case 66 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 2: of Samuel Little, he actually did not admit until much 67 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 2: later in life, just prior to his death, actually what 68 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 2: he had done in terms of numbers. That's why I 69 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 2: kind of look at, you know, Henry Lee Lucas, the 70 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: chief liar, and Samuel Little, who only admitted it when 71 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 2: he knew I'm in jail the rest of my life anyway. 72 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 1: And actually, an interesting little side note, when I was 73 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: still working in New Orleans, Henry Lucas's partner, Oddest Tool, 74 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: if you're familiar with that, he actually showed up in 75 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: New Orleans. But he showed up in handcuffs. Remember those 76 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: guys were they had a lot of bravado about them, 77 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 1: and they were one of these dual teams of serial perpetrators. 78 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: And he would go about trying to get free trips, 79 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 1: essentially saying, yeah, I think I killed somebody here at 80 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: that particular time. And I'm not going to go into 81 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: all of the gory details, but one of my dear 82 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: friends that was the commander of the homicide section at 83 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: that time, actually had to escort him around. Oddis Tool 84 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 1: And it's a weird name, Otis. It's spelled like otis, 85 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: but he preferred for everybody to call him Otis, And 86 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: so he was certainly a character. Sam Little, You wouldn't 87 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 1: know what he was, you wouldn't know that he was there. 88 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 1: I think he just kind of melded into the background 89 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: and he pursued and hunted, and he really was truly 90 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: a hunter. Dave. These people that are very, very defenseless. 91 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, take a wild guess as 92 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: to a commonality that many of the victims have as 93 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: far as an occupation. 94 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 2: Goes female homeless, drug addict, and prostitution as a career. 95 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's again it's something that it's almost wrote 96 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: in our field. But those are the individuals that kind 97 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: of slipped through the cracks that nobody really takes notice 98 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: of to go missing because they live in a very 99 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: high risk vironment. Most of the time, they're interacting with 100 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: totally and I mean total strangers in very dark, seedy areas, 101 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: and you never know what someone's intent is. The victims meantime, 102 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: their intent is just to live hour to hour, you know, 103 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: just to exist and survive and to get a food 104 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: or maybe have a roof over their head for a 105 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: short period of time, have a few bucks in their pocket. 106 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: But when you get an individual that is a predator 107 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: that's out there that has literally and by the admission 108 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: of several investigators at work Samuel Little's cases, he's one 109 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 1: of these people that perfected his craft, perfected. When you 110 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: begin to think about this, it's a really horrible thing 111 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: to consider that he had gotten it down to a 112 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: fine science. And I think, you know, to be honest 113 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: with you, Dave, I think that what caught up to 114 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: sam Little in the end was actually his age. I 115 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: think he just kind of aged out. He's one of 116 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: these people that actually survived to a ripe old age 117 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: even though he was incarcerated. 118 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 2: You know, the one thing about Samuel Little is that 119 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 2: in looking at the man's background, I try to figure 120 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: out what made this guy turn out the way he did. 121 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 2: And he was born in nineteen forty. He had his 122 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 2: first big arrest. The first time he was caught was 123 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 2: a break in an entering charge when he was sixteen. 124 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 2: And if I'm not mistaken, even then, when they know 125 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 2: he's a miner, and they were writing down where his 126 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 2: mother was and they didn't know whereabouts unknown at sixteen, 127 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 2: and think about that, Okay, Samuel Little breaking and entering 128 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 2: at the age of sixteen in nineteen fifty six. And 129 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 2: they don't even know where his mother is. So this 130 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 2: guy had the ability to move in many different directions. 131 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 2: He didn't have anything holding him back. There was no 132 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 2: home base to check in. There was no parental figure 133 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 2: there for direction or for hope for the future if 134 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 2: you change your ways, kind of thing that many of 135 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 2: us take for granted. His thieving career began early and 136 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 2: stayed that way, and that's why he is considered called 137 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 2: one of the most prolific serial killers in American history. 138 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 2: But again, I don't know how many are real and 139 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 2: how many art. I don't think he knew, when you 140 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 2: get right down to it. 141 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: I don't think he did either. And to back up 142 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: just a little bit, he had alleged that when they 143 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: kind of did a deep dive on him while he 144 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: was incarcerated out in California, which is, by the way, 145 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: that's where he actually died, he said he started having 146 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: these fantasies choking out females even as a young child. 147 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: He had a distinct memory of that going back all 148 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:41,559 Speaker 1: those years. 149 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 2: Wasn't it a teacher that he had this memory of 150 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 2: a teacher of him charging her neck. 151 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was like a kindergarten teacher, Yeah, 152 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: kindergarten or first grade teacher or something like that. Yeah, 153 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: that he had this idea about choking her out. And 154 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: we could go into all the psycho psychology that's behind them, 155 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: but at a base level, you know, I know, kids 156 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: get angry and that sort of thing. Lord knows, I've 157 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: seen mine angry. But to what extent do they begin 158 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,079 Speaker 1: to fantasize even at a young age, And that's that's 159 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:18,199 Speaker 1: certainly interesting bring down this kind of horror or there 160 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: at least they're thinking about it at that young age. 161 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 1: And so if that becomes kind of like a compulsion 162 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: in your life, you begin to think about it, that's 163 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: your driver. That's the reason I started out, you know, 164 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 1: kind of talking about vocation as opposed to advocation, you know, passions. 165 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: Some of these individuals, this is their main focus. Their 166 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: main focus, obviously, many of these individuals is to get 167 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: to the next victim. It's like swinging from vine to vine, 168 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: and that's what they're looking to do. Everything else in 169 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: their life is kind of a it's a peripheral issue. 170 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: They're thinking about, do I need to get a job. 171 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: We think about, well, I got to keep the lights on, 172 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: I got to pay the bills, that sort of thing. 173 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:01,319 Speaker 1: Well maybe so, but for them that was just an aside. 174 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: If I can go steal from somebody, if I can, 175 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 1: you know, do an arm robbery, if I can shake 176 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,199 Speaker 1: somebody down in some way, maybe so a little dope, 177 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, all I want 178 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: to do is sexually assault women and choke them to death. 179 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: From a period ranging from roughly nineteen seventy we think 180 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: until two thousand and five, Samuel Riddle traveled to nineteen 181 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: individual states and perpetrated as many as ninety three homicides 182 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: over that period of time. How in the world do 183 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: you not get caught during that huge gap of time. 184 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking about a mass a bit of 185 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: history here chronologically. You know, you think about that, and 186 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: it is it's something it's hard to understand this, it's 187 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 1: hard to make sense of it. And I think that probably, 188 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: at least in my experience, one of the most difficult 189 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: things is how the families make sense of it, particularly 190 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: when you've got individual victim who has been probably forgotten 191 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 1: by the family to a certain degree, and then they 192 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,199 Speaker 1: just don't see them anymore. Maybe there were sporadic phone calls, 193 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: maybe there were letters, maybe there were cards, maybe there 194 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: was contact with the holidays, but all of a sudden, 195 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: we don't know what happened to her. She's vanished. 196 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 2: Interesting to point out, Joe, that in the time period 197 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 2: we're looking at, okay, pre two thousand and five, this 198 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 2: is pre smartphone. This is the last few years of 199 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 2: Samuel Little's killings free if you want to call it that. 200 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,199 Speaker 2: But during you know, that was when cell phones and 201 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,080 Speaker 2: things like that started coming into play. But when you 202 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 2: look at, according to him, his first murder taking place 203 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy, going from there to two thousand and five, 204 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 2: a majority of that time there was a real transition 205 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 2: in how law enforcement solved crimes. I mean, you didn't 206 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 2: have DNA like we expected now. You know, stoving a 207 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 2: crime now we kind of we're TV shows have burned 208 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 2: us with this, but we think the average person that 209 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 2: you go to a crime scene, you find a drop 210 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 2: of blood, and there we go, we got the killers. 211 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 2: DNA here it is. It's not the way it was. 212 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:34,079 Speaker 2: How did they solve crimes back in the pre DNA days? 213 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 2: Joe what did they do when first of all, you 214 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 2: mentioned you've got somebody who is on the outside of 215 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 2: what we consider normal behavior society. You've got some they 216 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 2: didn't have cell phones and I mentioned no email, no internet, 217 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 2: and where you would have a daughter that had gone wayward, 218 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 2: didn't communicate with the family often, and there was no 219 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 2: real way of tracking them down. So when they do 220 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 2: PAS and they're an unidentified individual, being a Jane Doe 221 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 2: for example, Macon's Jane Doe comes to mind, but the 222 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 2: family doesn't even know where to begin looking. The police 223 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 2: don't know who she is, and the people they can 224 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 2: talk to find out are street people who don't have 225 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:21,239 Speaker 2: the best recollections. You don't have DNA. You've got fingerprints 226 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 2: if the person's been busted, and you can match those up. 227 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 2: But how did you solve a crime in the seventies 228 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 2: when you've got a dead you know, a person on 229 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 2: your hands, then nobody's looking for you're. 230 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: A mind reader. I can't believe you're asking me this 231 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,839 Speaker 1: question because it's the actions that were taken in making 232 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: Georgia back in nineteen seventy seven that brought us to 233 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: this point and kind of a background. You're right, we 234 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: didn't have the fine point. And I love to put 235 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: it that way. I'm kind of a simple guy. And 236 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: so if you imagine a number one pencil when you're 237 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: in the first grade and that big, blunted end on it, 238 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: and imagine a modern mechanical pencil that has this micro 239 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: tip on it, that's where we are. That's where we've 240 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: come from. And the blunted point to biological evidence back 241 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: then was essentially blood typing. When we're talking about pure biology, 242 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: pure biological tie backs, and that was reliant upon a 243 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: couple of factors. First off, did you have sample, were 244 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: you able to separate safe for instance, in the case 245 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: of a rape victim, the rape victim's blood or the 246 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: murder victim slash sexual assault victims of blood from the 247 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: killer's blood. And then if you've got the killer's blood, 248 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: what's the sourcing of the blood? Did he cut hisself 249 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: in the midst of it? Was he shot? Was he 250 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: punched and he was bleeding from his lip? Or was 251 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: he what you referred to as a secretor And back 252 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: then that was a big deal, and it's still kind 253 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: of a big deal. But you know, when you think 254 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: about secrets, secrets in their saliva and then in in 255 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: seminal sample and to a certain degree fecal sample as well. 256 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: Secrets they make up. I know I'm going to get 257 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: this wrong. It seems like thirty five to forty percent 258 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: of the population will secrete red blood cells into one 259 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: of these samples. All right, So if you have ejaculate 260 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: at the scene and you have a secretor there's a 261 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: chance that you will actually find find a red blood 262 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: cell in there. And if that's the case, and you 263 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: can type it, but think about the types. We've got AB, 264 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: then we've got A B and O, and so those 265 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: are your only choices. I mean, you have opause o'neg 266 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: you know, B pause, B neg, apause ANEG, and then 267 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: you've got ab pause a b neg. But beyond that that, 268 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: that's as far down as you could really narrow it. 269 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: And then you you couple that with well, if there's 270 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: fingerprints left behind, or you can look for what's referred 271 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: to as hair morphology. So if somebody, for instance, shed 272 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: hair at a scene, you can type the hair back racially. 273 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: You can say, well, this is an African American, this 274 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: is Native American, this is Caucasian, this is Asian. That 275 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: sort of thing. But that's about as fine a point 276 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: that you can put on it. But still, back then, 277 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: we were doing rape kits and it was important to 278 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: do those, and I'm amazed now what they can kind 279 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: of conjure up. 280 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 2: Joe. I hate to interrupt, but what is in a 281 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 2: rape kit? I hear the term used all the time, 282 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 2: but I have no idea. 283 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: Well, this is going to be kind of graphic, but 284 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: our listeners are used to it. I'll go ahead and 285 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: tell you what's in it. With a rape kit, it 286 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: comes with the swabs essentially. Okay, so you're going to swab. 287 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: And when I say swab, I'm not talking about like 288 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: if you've taken a DNA sample test where they do 289 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: a cheek scraping on you where you kind of scrape 290 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: it for thirty seconds then you submit it. It's not 291 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: like that with swabs. If anybody has ever been to 292 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: the doctor's office and you've seen these really long, wooden 293 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 1: handled Q tip swabs, Okay, you take a grouping of 294 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:09,360 Speaker 1: the swabs and you kind of cluster them together and 295 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: those will be inserted literally into each orifice of the 296 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: body besides the nose and the ears. They are left 297 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: to sit there, okay, and you have to give those 298 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: items a moment to absorb everything that is in that environment. 299 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: Once those have had a sufficient amount of time to absorb, 300 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,160 Speaker 1: you withdraw them and then you take a glass slide 301 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: like when you think about microscopy, you know, where you're 302 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: looking through a microscope, and you do a smear on 303 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: a slide with them, and you seal those up. You 304 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: also seal the swabs up as well, and those are 305 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: sent off. Sometimes they're left to dry for a few 306 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: moments and they can or for a day sometimes and 307 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: they're allowed to you know, kind of set in. But 308 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 1: you're going to do an initial smear on those and 309 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: all of that's going to be submitted now. Also contained 310 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: within the rape kit, you'll find nail clippers where you 311 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: can actually clip the nails, and those go into kind 312 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: of an onion type of onion paper. It looks like 313 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 1: onion paper is kind of thin, and you collect the nails, 314 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: but not before you scrape them. And those are done 315 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: with actually what looks like a cuticle tool that you 316 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: push your a wooden cuticle tool where you scrape underneath 317 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 1: in what you're looking for their skin cells. And you're 318 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: also going to do hair pluckings, so you'll do head pluckings, 319 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: and you'll do pubic pluckings to get hair for comparison. 320 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,439 Speaker 1: And many times you'll do combings as well. So if 321 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: you have in the pubic area, you can actually take 322 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 1: a comb and run it through that area, okay, and 323 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 1: whatever you collect on that comb, that sample is set 324 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 1: aside and that can be analyzed. And there you're looking 325 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: at the morphology of the follicle itself, of the hair follicle, 326 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:02,880 Speaker 1: to try to get an idea first off, if it's 327 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: human versus animal, if there's something caught up in there 328 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: in that cluster of hairs, and then perhaps you can 329 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,199 Speaker 1: tell if there's another human other than the one that 330 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: you have. All right, you see what I'm saying. And 331 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 1: so you've got that collection, that static collection, So all 332 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 1: of that goes into capturing just for that moment in 333 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: time when you have the body, and that body is 334 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: the biggest piece of evidence that you have in the morgue. 335 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: You capture as much evidence as much information per that 336 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: evidence off of this individual and perhaps just perhaps the 337 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 1: perpetrator as well. Traditionally, when you were doing a rake kit, 338 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: first off, there was a chance that you were looking 339 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: for ejaculate within the body of the victim, and that 340 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 1: would you would capture that ejaculate on the swab. And 341 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: also if there was contained within that ejaculate red blood 342 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: cells from perpetrator. That's one thing, and many people would say, well, 343 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 1: if there's if you have a female victim and you 344 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: have ejacula within the body, that confirms that we have, 345 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 1: in fact had some type of sexual contact, you can't 346 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: necessarily say that it was a sexual assault because if 347 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: you're talking about a grouping of people, for instance, and 348 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: this adds another layer to this, it's very complicated, which 349 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: goes to same a little he's praying upon whom when 350 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 1: he's praying upon individuals that are in sex trade, so 351 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: you might have individuals that have had multiple partners in 352 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,160 Speaker 1: the same night. Just kind of wrap your brain around 353 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: that just for a second. And so how do you 354 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: separate his ejaculate from someone else's ejaculate that might be 355 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,160 Speaker 1: present within the victim's body. And the other thing you're 356 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 1: going to look to with this is also is there 357 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 1: signs of forcible rape where you have trauma to either 358 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: the vaginal area or the rectal area where this event 359 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: is being forced onto the subject, so you'll look for 360 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 1: things like abrasions and tears and all that. I know 361 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: specifically of one a series of homicides that were portrayed 362 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: by a serial killer where the individual would have masturbatory 363 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: fantasies over the deceased, which happens in the post obviously 364 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,479 Speaker 1: to post mortem phase, so after they've killed them, they 365 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: would masturbate on the body. And well, that's not something 366 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: that you're going to capture that sample from a rate kit. 367 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: Those are external swabbings which you would use with a swab. 368 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: You'd have to use saline, apply that area over the 369 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: body where you think you see evidence of ejaculate on 370 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,439 Speaker 1: the body, and you can use alternative lighting sources in 371 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 1: order to you know, kind of pick that up and 372 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: see if it fluoresces, and then you go in you 373 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 1: catch that sample that way. So it is a multi 374 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: layer these cases. That's why they're so very complicated. And 375 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: it amazes me, you know, when we it seems like 376 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: the use me and never learns because they'll say, well, 377 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: why don't we have results yet, why don't we result yet? 378 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: Just the process itself takes hours upon hours to conclude. 379 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: It's not just about opening up a body and trying 380 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: to determine the cause of death. Again, it goes back 381 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: to my supposition that the body is the biggest piece 382 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: of evidence that you possess. 383 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 2: That is a lot more involved than I thought of. 384 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 2: You know, when I've heard the term rape git used, 385 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 2: I'm so glad you did break that down. It helps 386 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 2: me to now understand what detectives are doing back in 387 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,199 Speaker 2: the day, and now that is one thing that is 388 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 2: consistent with a rape get done in nineteen seventy seven 389 00:22:41,080 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 2: and a rape get done today. 390 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: There are moments in time that many of us have 391 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: had that work in investigations where I think retrospectively, we 392 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: go back and review ourselves as historians. When I think 393 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: back to the year nineteen seventy seven, there's certain music 394 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: that I remember. I remember just starting junior high school. 395 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: I remember playing sports, I remember the smell of my 396 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 1: mom's cooking. But in nineteen seventy seven, in town of Macon, Georgia, 397 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 1: along a road called Arkwright, there was a discovery that 398 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 1: was made. The choices and the decisions that those investigators 399 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: made all those years ago came to fruition all these 400 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: years later, where a lady was finally identified through DNA. 401 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 2: What say you, Dave, It wasn't as simple as DNA, 402 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 2: That's what I say. I looked at this. Joseph's got Morgan, 403 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 2: and I have to tell you that over the last 404 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 2: few years, I am so thankful that we met, because 405 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 2: you're a great guy and I like talking to you. 406 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 2: But I've learned so much about what law enforcement investigators 407 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 2: deal with, from the moment they're called to a crime 408 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 2: scene to the moment of conviction of the suspect. And 409 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 2: so much is made of forensic stuff. We have television shows, 410 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 2: fortunes have been made on dramatizing DNA and forensic stuff 411 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 2: that we take for granted is so much more involved 412 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 2: than what any of us know. But when you've got 413 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 2: somebody that is found dead in nineteen seventy seven, think 414 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 2: about it. Jimmy Carter as the president. One of the 415 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 2: things that we were following it then was Billy Carter 416 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 2: urinating outside of lax We've got an energy crisis. We've 417 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 2: got a lot going on back then. And yet going 418 00:24:54,359 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 2: from Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden, all 419 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 2: these years, all these presidents, all these things go by, 420 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 2: and there is an unidentified person, and the citizens of Making, 421 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 2: Georgia should be thankful to have a group of men 422 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 2: and women that are so determined to solve this that 423 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 2: they were able to analyze what their officers did in 424 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy seven and use that, combined with the latest 425 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 2: technology of today, to actually determine beyond a shadow of 426 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,199 Speaker 2: a doubt, beyond a reasonable doubt, who the actual perpetrator 427 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 2: of the crime is and who this person was. 428 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 1: Isn't it something you think about that those years ago, 429 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: that decision that law enforcement, the medical examiner at that time, 430 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: or the count corner, such as the case down in 431 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: Bibb County, Georgia, which is where Macon is. That decision 432 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: that they made to have this unidentified that referred to 433 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 1: her as Jane Doe. I think she end up becoming 434 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: correct me from wrong, David. Didn't she what she referred 435 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: to as making. 436 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 2: The newspaper there is called the Telegraph, and the Telegraph 437 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 2: dubbed her making Jane Doe. 438 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy seven. It was people kind of throw 439 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: this around a lot, but it was a more innocent time. 440 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,400 Speaker 1: Didn't really seem like it, but it truly was compared 441 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 1: to nowadays, and you didn't have as many of these 442 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: really violent events like this that would happen, and something 443 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: so shocking in this kind of sleepy southern town where 444 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: she's found along this road, almost discarded as though she 445 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: were trash, and they knew nothing of who she was. 446 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 1: But they thought enough at that moment time when they 447 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 1: did the post mortem examine on her to do one 448 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: of these rape kits. The fact that this thing survived 449 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: that they were able to retain enough of a biological 450 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 1: element within this kit. I think where it tied back. 451 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: It winds up tied back to Samuel Little, who, in 452 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: his own way had actually stated that he had killed 453 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 1: women throughout the South, not just the South, but all over, 454 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: but he had made his way through Georgia. Do you 455 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: know he actually was originally from Georgia. He was born 456 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,199 Speaker 1: in Georgia. He grew up I think up north in 457 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: Ohio if I'm I'm mistaken, but he was born in Rentals, Georgia, 458 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: and so this is an area that he probably still 459 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,199 Speaker 1: had family in the Georgia area. He migrated around a lot, 460 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: and as a result of retaining this biological sample that 461 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: they had, they were able to finally get Jane Doe 462 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: of making Macon Jane Doe. They were finally able to 463 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 1: get her identified through genetic genealogy. 464 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 2: They were actually able to identify that Samuel Little had 465 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 2: raped and murdered her. They were able to prove that genetically, 466 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 2: but they didn't know her name. They didn't know who 467 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 2: she was, but they knew that he killed her. Think 468 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 2: about that for just a minute. They were able to 469 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 2: solve the crime, but couldn't solve who she was. 470 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't that something? This huge genetic stew is what 471 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 1: it comes down to. You can imagine that in your mind. 472 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: That might be a little off putting, you know, when 473 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: you think about it, But we truly are We're this 474 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 1: huge missmash because we're all MutS, comes down to it, 475 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 1: But we have this kind of genetic stew that's brewing 476 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 1: out there. It's hard when you're taking that real high 477 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 1: altitude view of the situation, You're thinking, how in the 478 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: world are we able to get an identity on an 479 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 1: individual from all those years ago. Because of the sample 480 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: that they took at that particular point in time where 481 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: they were able to retain a biological sample of the victim, 482 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: they were able to plug that into a national database 483 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: and through her multiple lines they were able to determine who, 484 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: in fact she was. 485 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 2: Well, what is the forensic genealogy? I know I'm leaving 486 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 2: out some terms here because I don't know what I'm 487 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 2: talking about other than you know, forensic I know what 488 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 2: that is, and I know genealogy. But genetic genealogy, what 489 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 2: is it? And how does it come into play today 490 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 2: in solving what had been previously called unsolved crimes. 491 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, not just unsolved, but in our previous context, I 492 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: think unsolvable. I still remember, you know, standing over you 493 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: know remains that you just sit there and scratch your 494 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: head and you're looking for something. Early on in my career, 495 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: and we had nothing to hang our hat on. We 496 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: just knew that we would never, never be able to 497 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: determine and that there was those whispers off in the distance, 498 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: you know, DNA, DNA, DNA, but you know, there was 499 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: nothing that had utility to it back then because it 500 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: was so so very cumbersome. It was a cumbersome process. 501 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: But with most genealogical DNA genealogical pursuits, they have a 502 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: sample that is set aside as a result of something 503 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: that they've collected off of a body. One of the 504 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: tricks is is it still viable? And what happens is 505 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: that it's so fragile that it can become the sample 506 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: can become degraded over period of time if it's not 507 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: been taken well care of, and in this particular instance 508 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: it was so when you have genetic genealogy going on, 509 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: a sample can actually be submitted into a data bank 510 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: that might be associated with a group like NamUs, which 511 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: is forensic group that's based you know, it's based upon 512 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: this idea that everybody deserves to be identified, and there 513 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: would be a static collection of the samples that are 514 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: out there, and you combine that with people that have 515 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: been submitting samples of their own to try to determine 516 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: their own genealogy perhaps, which is fascinating in and of 517 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: itself that we can do that nowadays. But every now 518 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: and then you'll get to hit most of the time, 519 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: what the key to solving these cases are relative to relatives, 520 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: if you will, are cousins. We have thousands and thousands 521 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: of cousins out there. Now they're going to be at 522 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: different degrees, obviously, But the trick is is that you 523 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: begin to and what these genealogists do is that they 524 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: combine their ability to construct genealogical trees along with the 525 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: science that's involved of narrowing that path down because of 526 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: all these markers along our strands of DNA that make 527 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: us individual, you know, they give us our individual characteristics, 528 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: you know, where you have things like phenotyping that come 529 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: in that determine our hair color and our eye color 530 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: and our stature and all those sorts of things that 531 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: are unique to our familial line. And suddenly, can you 532 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: imagine sitting there And I've always been fascinated by this, 533 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: not being a DNA guy myself, and certainly not being 534 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: a genealogist, an amateur one, but not one at all. 535 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,239 Speaker 1: And suddenly can you imagine, Dave, You're sitting there at 536 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: your computer, You're working a case in boom, it just blast. 537 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: You've created this thing that just comes to reality. Suddenly 538 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: you say, oh my god, I've got eight cousins here 539 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: of this person. Who is this person? Now? What do 540 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: you do with that information? If you're a police officer, 541 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: well you apply good old fashioned shoe leather. At that point, Tom, 542 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: you go out and you knock on doors and you say, hey, 543 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 1: do you have somebody in your family that you may 544 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: be related to that's missing, that you guys have not 545 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: had any knowledge of in some time. After you go 546 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: through that number of people, all of those cousins, sooner 547 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,719 Speaker 1: or later, it'll begin to narrow down your field. 548 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 2: Well, you know, they're not starting from zero anyway, They've 549 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 2: done in some investigation, law enforcement has They've built a 550 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 2: case on the evidence that they have, and so when 551 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 2: those cousins do pop up, it starts filling in the blanks. 552 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 2: We saw it happen with this Sherry Peppini case a 553 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 2: couple of years ago. You know, she faked her own abduction, 554 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 2: and when everything was said and done, the sweat shirt 555 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 2: though she was wearing the day she popped back up, 556 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 2: they took it and they found some DNA on it, 557 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 2: I don't spit or whatever, And when they broke it down, 558 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 2: it was actually came back to the father of the 559 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 2: man that she was staying with her during all that time. 560 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 2: And it was just funny because once they narrowed it 561 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 2: down to that family name and this guy they had 562 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 2: their connection to Peppeni and went, oh, okay, here it is, 563 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 2: and I look at these from the news standpoint of 564 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 2: how we cover them, Joe. And whenever you see that 565 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 2: the genetic genealogy and you realize people have uploaded their 566 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 2: own DNA to websites, whether it's twenty three ande meters 567 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 2: or whatever, and they're trying to find their own family tree. 568 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 2: I think my brother in law did this that it 569 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 2: opens up this whole new world of potential suspects that 570 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 2: you know, and that's there's been some legal fighting about 571 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 2: that and what is acceptable, and you know what is 572 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 2: free and not. But the bottom line is if you 573 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 2: can take this genetic genealogy and follow it back and 574 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 2: can identify somebody who, for nearly fifty years has been 575 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 2: nothing except Macon's Jane Doe, I just can't think of 576 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 2: how much better this is going to get. 577 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,320 Speaker 1: Many many mysteries will potentially be unlocked as a result 578 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: of this technology moving forward, and I think in the 579 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: case of this poor woman who all those years ago 580 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: came face to face with a monster who wrapped his 581 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: hands around her throat and choked the life out of her, 582 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: you're going to have many of these mysteries that will 583 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: be solved. And that's certainly the case with Yvonne pless 584 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 1: who had remained unidentified for all these years, and finally 585 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:49,760 Speaker 1: her family has some answers. 586 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,240 Speaker 2: Samuel Little actually died on December thirtieth of twenty twenty 587 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 2: in Los Angeles County Area Hospital in southern California, the 588 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 2: California Department of Correction and Rehabilitation. Sources don't indicate the 589 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 2: cause of death, and I bring that up only to 590 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 2: make sure you understand that he was in prison in 591 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 2: his final days. Samuel Little was and had been there 592 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,800 Speaker 2: for some time. He was eighty years old when he died, 593 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 2: and at the time of his death, Yvonne Plus had 594 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 2: not been identified. That has only taken place in the 595 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 2: recent past. And when they did actually identify who had 596 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 2: previously been known as making Jane Doe. And when the 597 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,359 Speaker 2: family of Yvonne Plus was notified and she was no 598 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 2: longer a Jane Doe but was identified again, Samuel Little 599 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 2: already dead, but her family had the opportunity to get 600 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,279 Speaker 2: closure and they actually issued a statement is said, we 601 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 2: appreciate the interest in our family member's story. When Captain 602 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 2: Jones and Missus Hutzell notified us that Yvonne had been identified, 603 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 2: we were unaware she was deceased. We are mourning the 604 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 2: loss of our loved one and have no comments at 605 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 2: this time. We asked that our privacy be respected. That 606 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 2: is the story of making Jane Doe her identity. Yavon 607 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 2: plus H. 608 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,760 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks