1
00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:07,880
Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

2
00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,680
Speaker 2: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and

3
00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:12,920
Speaker 2: it's Saturday. Time to go into the vault for an

4
00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:15,440
Speaker 2: older episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This one

5
00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,960
Speaker 2: originally published April fourth, twenty twenty three, and it's part

6
00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,840
Speaker 2: one of our series called Before You Could Remember, about

7
00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,560
Speaker 2: the age at which we start forming permanent memories or

8
00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:28,640
Speaker 2: memories that we can access later. We get into all

9
00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:31,800
Speaker 2: the nuances there in the episode, so we hope.

10
00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:33,480
Speaker 1: You like it. Yeah, these were a lot of fun

11
00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:37,120
Speaker 1: and they generated a lot of listener commentary. So if

12
00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:39,400
Speaker 1: you have fresh thoughts on this episode and the ones

13
00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:41,640
Speaker 1: to follow, write in. We'd love to hear from you.

14
00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,800
Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

15
00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:56,840
Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

16
00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:57,760
Speaker 1: name is Robert.

17
00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,400
Speaker 2: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and today we're going to

18
00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:04,360
Speaker 2: be talking about that hole in your memory before the

19
00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:09,560
Speaker 2: earliest one you can produce, also known as infantile amnesia.

20
00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,160
Speaker 2: And hey, listeners, you were promised you would be getting

21
00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,280
Speaker 2: some baby looked at Me topics this year. My wife

22
00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:19,880
Speaker 2: and I had a baby this past October, and I

23
00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,640
Speaker 2: think many of you have been practically daring me to

24
00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:27,280
Speaker 2: embark on indulgent dad topics. But here we've arrived at

25
00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:31,560
Speaker 2: one because so I think the way I got here

26
00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:36,039
Speaker 2: was recently we have started spending a lot of time

27
00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,600
Speaker 2: trying to make a five month old baby laugh. Rob,

28
00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:42,600
Speaker 2: I don't know how much experience you have with this,

29
00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,160
Speaker 2: like the parent comedian routine.

30
00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,680
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of hours clocked on

31
00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:50,040
Speaker 1: that particular stand up game.

32
00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:55,880
Speaker 2: Well, sometime recently Rachel figured out what our baby's favorite

33
00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,320
Speaker 2: genre of comedy was, at least for that day, and

34
00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:04,200
Speaker 2: it will a textile gravity comedy. It was. The act

35
00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,720
Speaker 2: was you hold a cloth up in the air and

36
00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,840
Speaker 2: then you drop the cloth on the baby, and when

37
00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:14,320
Speaker 2: the cloth falls down and hits the baby, this is hilarious.

38
00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:19,200
Speaker 2: It was creating these storms of laughter from another dimension,

39
00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:24,720
Speaker 2: truly riveting experience, at least for us. But I started

40
00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,040
Speaker 2: to wonder, like, why is this funny? And of course

41
00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,239
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask her, but she's a five month

42
00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,360
Speaker 2: old baby, not talking yet, she can't explain why it's funny.

43
00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,600
Speaker 2: And I was thinking, one day will I be able

44
00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,800
Speaker 2: to ask her. You remember when we were dropping the

45
00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,680
Speaker 2: cloth on you, and you thought this was so funny.

46
00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,239
Speaker 2: Why was it funny? What was going through your mind?

47
00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,880
Speaker 2: But I just know that's probably never a conversation that's

48
00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,040
Speaker 2: going to go anywhere, because is she really going to

49
00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,160
Speaker 2: even remember this by the time she can talk about it,

50
00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,400
Speaker 2: Because I certainly don't have any memories that I can

51
00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,919
Speaker 2: bring up now from being five months old, or even

52
00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,320
Speaker 2: from being one year old, or even from being two

53
00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,920
Speaker 2: years old. I'm not sure, honestly what my earliest memory is,

54
00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,440
Speaker 2: but I know I don't have any memories I feel

55
00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:18,280
Speaker 2: confident about from the first several years of my life.

56
00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,160
Speaker 2: And it turns out this is not unique to me.

57
00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,400
Speaker 2: This is pretty common. Most people feel this way, that

58
00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,560
Speaker 2: they don't have any really solid memories from the first

59
00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,600
Speaker 2: several years of their lives. And so I just got

60
00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,040
Speaker 2: really interested in the question of why that is.

61
00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, unless you are biological mother partook of

62
00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:42,480
Speaker 1: the waters of life, she was pregnant, you're probably not

63
00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,280
Speaker 1: pre born like that. You're not gonna You're not gonna

64
00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:49,720
Speaker 1: remember these things. And we'll get into some there is

65
00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:54,080
Speaker 1: a certain amount of subjectiveness to all of this, and

66
00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,400
Speaker 1: we'll get into some of that, and certainly we'd love

67
00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:58,840
Speaker 1: to hear from any listeners out there who are firm

68
00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,120
Speaker 1: on this or feel firm and are like, yes, I

69
00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,160
Speaker 1: do remember being under the age of two that sort

70
00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,280
Speaker 1: of thing. But most of the research seems to point

71
00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,880
Speaker 1: in a different direction that most. It seems like most

72
00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,760
Speaker 1: of what we remember is after a certain point in

73
00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,960
Speaker 1: our development, and that certainly your daughter has not quite

74
00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:20,000
Speaker 1: reached that point.

75
00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,360
Speaker 2: Which is not to say that she is not capable

76
00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:28,280
Speaker 2: of memory, because I mean several things I can notice.

77
00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:33,400
Speaker 2: She recognizes faces, and she is forming associations and routines.

78
00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,680
Speaker 2: There's learning going on at this point in a baby's development,

79
00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,599
Speaker 2: and learning is to some extent based on memory. So

80
00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,520
Speaker 2: it's not that the brain is not capable of any

81
00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,120
Speaker 2: type of memory at this point. But it seems that

82
00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:50,279
Speaker 2: most people's brains at this point are not producing episodic

83
00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:55,560
Speaker 2: or autobiographical memories. Episodic memories meaning memories of specific events

84
00:04:55,760 --> 00:05:00,560
Speaker 2: or experiences, not producing sort of narrative memory of that

85
00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,960
Speaker 2: type that can be retrieved later in life. I guess

86
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,000
Speaker 2: it's a question whether memories of that type are formed

87
00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,719
Speaker 2: at all, And so I don't have any memories like that.

88
00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:15,320
Speaker 2: From infancy. Most people report the same, and I cannot,

89
00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,560
Speaker 2: honestly from my memory, tell you a story about anything

90
00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,240
Speaker 2: that happened before I was probably like four or five

91
00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,840
Speaker 2: or so. You do bring up the idea that there

92
00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:26,640
Speaker 2: are a small number of people who claim they can

93
00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,520
Speaker 2: remember like being born or being a baby. But even

94
00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,920
Speaker 2: in those cases, while you can't say, well, you're just wrong,

95
00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,200
Speaker 2: you don't remember that, I think it's reasonable to be

96
00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:39,760
Speaker 2: skeptical about whether those are real memories or just later confabulations.

97
00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And on this note, I think it's important

98
00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,880
Speaker 1: to remind listeners that fabricated memories are by no means

99
00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,919
Speaker 1: necessarily intentional. They are numerous ways that we've discussed in

100
00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,760
Speaker 1: the show before, numerous ways that false memories may be encoded.

101
00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,360
Speaker 1: There are plenty of examples of cases where attested early

102
00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:00,279
Speaker 1: childhood memories can ultimately be attributed to stories one is

103
00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,080
Speaker 1: told about one's younger years and or something formed out

104
00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,520
Speaker 1: of say longing or desire for a certain framework. A

105
00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:09,640
Speaker 1: lot of stuff like that out there. And again, we,

106
00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,520
Speaker 1: as we've touched on many times before, like we alter

107
00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,280
Speaker 1: memories every time we draw them out, every time we

108
00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,640
Speaker 1: get them out of the storage. We get our fingerprints

109
00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:20,960
Speaker 1: all over them, and we change them. And then ultimately,

110
00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,920
Speaker 1: the memories that are most dear to us, the ones

111
00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,200
Speaker 1: that we pull out the most are the ones that

112
00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,120
Speaker 1: are potentially the most altered.

113
00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,919
Speaker 2: Right because the form in which they are stored in

114
00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,800
Speaker 2: memory is ultimately the form in which you rehearse them.

115
00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,320
Speaker 2: You know, it's not a videotape. It is a it's

116
00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,640
Speaker 2: a constant sort of like rewriting over the same document.

117
00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And and to your point, though, it is

118
00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,840
Speaker 1: kind of ironic that when you have a young child

119
00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:50,360
Speaker 1: in the house like this, for parents, this is or

120
00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,640
Speaker 1: or even you know, other people in that infant's life,

121
00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,320
Speaker 1: these are some of the dearest moments. You know, you're

122
00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,960
Speaker 1: experiencing these moments and you're like, this, this is you

123
00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,400
Speaker 1: can feel it in you can you know this is

124
00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,640
Speaker 1: something you're never going to forget. And then on the

125
00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:07,040
Speaker 1: other hand, you have at least a very strong suspicion

126
00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:09,279
Speaker 1: that the child is not going to remember it the

127
00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:13,160
Speaker 1: way that you remember it. Uh And and it's it's

128
00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,120
Speaker 1: so it's something that I know that we my wife

129
00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:16,800
Speaker 1: and I talked a lot about with our son when

130
00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,880
Speaker 1: he when he was much younger, and sometimes my son

131
00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:21,880
Speaker 1: will come in on this, because when your jow gets over,

132
00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:23,560
Speaker 1: you're always like, well do you remember this? Do you

133
00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,000
Speaker 1: remember that? Or I remember when this happened, but I

134
00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,280
Speaker 1: know you don't remember it. And so there are a

135
00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,240
Speaker 1: lot of conversations like that. And then sometimes we'll be

136
00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,440
Speaker 1: on a trip and our son, at this point, who's

137
00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,360
Speaker 1: almost eleven, he'll comment like, oh, well, that baby's not

138
00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,400
Speaker 1: even going to remember that vacation, seeing like a you know,

139
00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,440
Speaker 1: another couple with an infant on a trip, but.

140
00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:45,000
Speaker 2: It might as well not even take it.

141
00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know that's that's kind of the joke, right,

142
00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:48,960
Speaker 1: Like just go and put your baby in a closet

143
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:50,680
Speaker 1: for a few years because they're not going to remember

144
00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,200
Speaker 1: these expensive trips. But of course you can't do that.

145
00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,000
Speaker 1: That's not how it works. You have to have these

146
00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,280
Speaker 1: moments and these trips, and and just because the baby's

147
00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:02,280
Speaker 1: not recalling it the way an adult recalls something later

148
00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,920
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that it's not quote unquote remembered.

149
00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:10,480
Speaker 2: Right, those I mean those instead of say having autobiographical

150
00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:14,120
Speaker 2: memories that can later be retrieved in narrative form. Instead,

151
00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,960
Speaker 2: the effect of those experiences might be say structural impacts

152
00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:19,160
Speaker 2: on the development of the brain.

153
00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,840
Speaker 1: Right, there's a great quote that came up in a

154
00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,200
Speaker 1: paper I'm going to source here in a bet where

155
00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,920
Speaker 1: they said something that you know, it's quite simple, but

156
00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,120
Speaker 1: I think is important to keep in mind in this

157
00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,880
Speaker 1: context and memory context in general. The brain remembers what

158
00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,360
Speaker 1: it needs to remember, you know, and and the memory

159
00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,360
Speaker 1: demands on say a five month old baby or a

160
00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,040
Speaker 1: one year old child one and a half year old

161
00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:46,680
Speaker 1: child are different. And therefore, again, it's nothing bad about

162
00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,559
Speaker 1: not having not being able to recall when you were

163
00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,160
Speaker 1: two or three or four or five. It's just it's

164
00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,760
Speaker 1: just what your brain needed to do. And as we'll

165
00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:56,199
Speaker 1: get into, there are different reasons for this.

166
00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,319
Speaker 2: Yes, So that's what we're going to be exploring in

167
00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:04,079
Speaker 2: this series. Questions like why don't most people have specific

168
00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:09,319
Speaker 2: autobiographical memories of being a baby. Do we have episodic

169
00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,559
Speaker 2: memories of infancy which get like erased from the brain

170
00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:16,599
Speaker 2: for some reason, or do we never form episodic memories

171
00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,400
Speaker 2: of babe life in the first place. Obviously there's some

172
00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:23,800
Speaker 2: kind of memory going on in very young childhood and infancy,

173
00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,160
Speaker 2: but maybe it just like it doesn't have an episodic

174
00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:30,400
Speaker 2: memory component. Maybe it can remember associations and images, but

175
00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:35,120
Speaker 2: maybe not like sequences of events. Or maybe is there

176
00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,720
Speaker 2: some weird third option, like we do form memories and

177
00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,040
Speaker 2: they're not exactly erased later, but they're sort of fuzzy

178
00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,560
Speaker 2: or hard to retrieve for some reason. That that's what

179
00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,360
Speaker 2: got me really interested in this exploration today. But of

180
00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,520
Speaker 2: course I also got very interested in the question of

181
00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,199
Speaker 2: before people could do experiments on this, they must have

182
00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:01,160
Speaker 2: observed childhood development firsthand and had all kinds of questions

183
00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,400
Speaker 2: of this sort and probably come up with answers whether

184
00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:04,920
Speaker 2: or not those answers were accurate.

185
00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:08,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. So yeah, let's get in a little bit into

186
00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:10,960
Speaker 1: just sort of some of the history of some of

187
00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,719
Speaker 1: some sort of pre modern infant opinions, and also a

188
00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,560
Speaker 1: little bit of cultural variation. I think one of the

189
00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:19,400
Speaker 1: things to keep in mind about pre modern and pre

190
00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:21,920
Speaker 1: scientific beliefs about infant memory is that a lot of

191
00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,240
Speaker 1: it is going to come down to older beliefs about

192
00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,640
Speaker 1: what human infants are and what they are not, And

193
00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,160
Speaker 1: so this is all a mixture of things based on

194
00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:35,400
Speaker 1: cultural tradition but also based on observation. I think it

195
00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,040
Speaker 1: goes without saying that no matter what may have been

196
00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:43,600
Speaker 1: ultimately recorded in literature ancient people, you know they would

197
00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:47,280
Speaker 1: have applied different insights and different ideas to the experience

198
00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,839
Speaker 1: of babies, but some things were obviously going to be

199
00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,800
Speaker 1: the same. Babies evoke strong emotions in us. That's just

200
00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,520
Speaker 1: part of the way we're hardwired. Babies require a great

201
00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:01,600
Speaker 1: deal of care. Babies cry baby is inherently can't communicate precisely.

202
00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,920
Speaker 1: And also, human memories of early childhood or the lack thereof,

203
00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:08,920
Speaker 1: would have been identical more or less to what we

204
00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,360
Speaker 1: have now, or at least any differences are not going

205
00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:16,880
Speaker 1: to be based merely on say the timeline, and we'll

206
00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:18,000
Speaker 1: get into some of that in a bit.

207
00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:20,840
Speaker 2: Right. For example, I would really not say that the

208
00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:26,480
Speaker 2: current characteristics of infantile amnesia or memory formation and very

209
00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,600
Speaker 2: young children are say, a result of the Internet or

210
00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,840
Speaker 2: some other kind of like technological context, especially because we

211
00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,840
Speaker 2: know people have been in the more modern era doing

212
00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,280
Speaker 2: research on this going back more than one hundred years,

213
00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,520
Speaker 2: so before a lot of the sort of like communications

214
00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,480
Speaker 2: and technology context we live in today, people were asking, Hey,

215
00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,000
Speaker 2: when are people's first memories and what do they remember

216
00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,040
Speaker 2: about childhood? And the answers were largely the same as

217
00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:55,640
Speaker 2: what we get when we ask that today.

218
00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So it doesn't seem like there's any expectation

219
00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,319
Speaker 1: that there's been significant variation in this, aside from variation

220
00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,000
Speaker 1: that occurs for cultural reasons and so forth. But again,

221
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:07,280
Speaker 1: a lot of this is going to come down to

222
00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,120
Speaker 1: how we think about babies. And again it's interesting because

223
00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,839
Speaker 1: on one hand, yes, we have this inherent draw towards

224
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,800
Speaker 1: our own young and to the young of our community.

225
00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:19,680
Speaker 1: But at the same time, you know, you often hear

226
00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,520
Speaker 1: people talk about older kids, and you'll hear them say, well,

227
00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,640
Speaker 1: you remember what it was like when you were that age.

228
00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,040
Speaker 1: You know, there's a certain relatability in that. But generally

229
00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,240
Speaker 1: they're not saying this about infants or very young toddlers,

230
00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,080
Speaker 1: because by and large, we don't remember what it was

231
00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:37,480
Speaker 1: it was like to be that age. We only remember

232
00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:39,680
Speaker 1: the stories of what we were like at that age

233
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:45,320
Speaker 1: and so forth. Now, examining how people in ancient times,

234
00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:49,280
Speaker 1: for example, thought about babies, thinking about pre modern and

235
00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,480
Speaker 1: pre scientific thinking into all of this, you also have

236
00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,240
Speaker 1: to take into account infant mortality rates, which were often

237
00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,840
Speaker 1: high in ancient times, and I realized that infant mortality

238
00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:03,199
Speaker 1: is not exactly a fun topic. But some of the

239
00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,000
Speaker 1: attitudes of the ancient world surrounding the nature of infants

240
00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:10,120
Speaker 1: is more sharply expressed over the subject, or so it seems.

241
00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,280
Speaker 1: So we are going to touch on it a little bit,

242
00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:13,440
Speaker 1: at least in passing.

243
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's sort of unavoidable for most of human history,

244
00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,520
Speaker 2: for most people, just a major fact of life.

245
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I looked at a few different sources about

246
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,079
Speaker 1: the understanding of infants in ancient Greek and ancient Rome.

247
00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,000
Speaker 1: In Childbirth and Infancy in Greek and Roman Antiquity from

248
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:34,200
Speaker 1: twenty eleven, author Varonech Dawson points out a number of

249
00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,600
Speaker 1: interesting things about how these ancient people seems to seem

250
00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,360
Speaker 1: to have considered young children based on the evidence we

251
00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,719
Speaker 1: have to go on today. And so I want to

252
00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,240
Speaker 1: outline some interesting points that they bring up. First of all,

253
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,400
Speaker 1: most of what we know relates to elite children rather

254
00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,320
Speaker 1: than the lives of those born into lower classes or

255
00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:54,839
Speaker 1: to enslaved people. Also, we have to think about the

256
00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,160
Speaker 1: terminology here. This is fascinating. So you know, basically the

257
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:05,480
Speaker 1: infant toddlerdynamic and duality. It's interesting and potentially telling in

258
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:10,000
Speaker 1: that changes in terminology may indicate changes in cultural understanding

259
00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,800
Speaker 1: of young children. So you know, certainly there's a difference

260
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,160
Speaker 1: between an infant and a toddler, and we tend to

261
00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,480
Speaker 1: sort of we tend to mark that transition point. But

262
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,760
Speaker 1: to what extent is that transition point born out in

263
00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,680
Speaker 1: a people's language, and at what point does the language

264
00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,240
Speaker 1: potentially shift, etc. Basically just sort of a larger background

265
00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:33,840
Speaker 1: topic to keep in mind, but the big point here

266
00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,200
Speaker 1: is that it's most helpful to think of childhood as

267
00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,280
Speaker 1: a journey, one that hits different milestones, goes through different stages,

268
00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,640
Speaker 1: and that in this in turn alters the way that

269
00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,000
Speaker 1: adults view the child and the degree to which they

270
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:51,880
Speaker 1: can be integrated into society. Also, Dawson points out quote

271
00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:56,040
Speaker 1: in times of high infant mortality, these stages represented steps

272
00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:00,880
Speaker 1: for hope of survival and increasing parental bonding. We'll come

273
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,600
Speaker 1: back to exactly what is meant by that, but basically

274
00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,520
Speaker 1: it comes down to, like, how does a culture deal

275
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,560
Speaker 1: with the fact that there is a high infant mortality rate.

276
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,760
Speaker 1: Is there more of a sort of pushing away kind

277
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,920
Speaker 1: of like a ultimately a stoic reaction sort of distancing

278
00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,960
Speaker 1: of the infant from the society or making it kind

279
00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,400
Speaker 1: of a marginal state, or is there indeed still a

280
00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:37,360
Speaker 1: lot of bonding going on and so forth. Now, with

281
00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,480
Speaker 1: the Greek and Roman viewpoints, specifically, what we think of

282
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,240
Speaker 1: as infancy would have probably ended at age two or three,

283
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,440
Speaker 1: with full weaning, increased ability to speak, and at age

284
00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,840
Speaker 1: three integration into practiced religion at least at some degree. Now,

285
00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,280
Speaker 1: Medically speaking, it was previously supposed that there was next

286
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,680
Speaker 1: to nothing in the literature of ancient Greek and ancient

287
00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,760
Speaker 1: Rome to suggest that physicians were concerned with babies except

288
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,640
Speaker 1: in exceptional circumstances. It was thought that babies in general

289
00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:09,080
Speaker 1: were left to the midwives and the mothers. However, Dawson

290
00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,880
Speaker 1: stresses that this is no longer really a correct viewpoint,

291
00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,760
Speaker 1: based on numerous examples of writings that have come up

292
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:19,400
Speaker 1: about say, essential diet and hygiene for babies. So I

293
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:23,760
Speaker 1: think that's interesting, representing a shift in our modern understanding

294
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,760
Speaker 1: about ancient views on infants.

295
00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,400
Speaker 2: That they were actually sometimes a more relevant object of

296
00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:31,960
Speaker 2: what was considered medicine.

297
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's sort of this, and we'll get into it

298
00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,000
Speaker 1: more in just a second. Here but there was this

299
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:42,600
Speaker 1: understanding of the ancient world based on some significant evidence

300
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:47,440
Speaker 1: that basically the ruling male elite were saying, like, babies

301
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,440
Speaker 1: that don't not even worth your time, not worth my

302
00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:52,640
Speaker 1: time anyway, call me when it is old enough for

303
00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,920
Speaker 1: me to care about it, or if there's if it's exploding,

304
00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,520
Speaker 1: then yes, a physician may come and check out the child.

305
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,120
Speaker 1: That sort of thing. Without a doubt, there seems to

306
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,240
Speaker 1: have been far less of a view of baby superiority

307
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,960
Speaker 1: in ancient Greek and ancient Rome. Dawson writes the following

308
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:12,880
Speaker 1: this is great quote from Hippocrates. To late antiquity, babies

309
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,879
Speaker 1: and toddlers are defined as a category of beings with

310
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:21,240
Speaker 1: a special morphology and physiology. These characteristics are on the

311
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:26,480
Speaker 1: whole negative. Newborn babies are generally described as imperfect, weak,

312
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:27,560
Speaker 1: and ugly.

313
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:32,480
Speaker 2: Wow perfect yes, oh no. This reminds me of the

314
00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,560
Speaker 2: story you've shared many times of your son calling the

315
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,560
Speaker 2: cat a stupid baby or just a baby.

316
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:40,879
Speaker 1: Maybe when it was just baby, like baby is an

317
00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:45,680
Speaker 1: adjective baby mochi and just a solid burn. As a toddler,

318
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:46,160
Speaker 1: it's like.

319
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,760
Speaker 2: Peak insult, imperfect, weak and ugly.

320
00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:55,000
Speaker 1: Yeah yee toddlers get it, and so did the grown

321
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:59,560
Speaker 1: learned men of ancient Greece. So Dawson points a few

322
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,600
Speaker 1: specific authors to underline these views. So Aristotle wrote that

323
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,560
Speaker 1: babies quote are born in a more imperfect condition than

324
00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,040
Speaker 1: any other perfected animal, and also that they have poor eyesight.

325
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,000
Speaker 2: Oh well, it depends on what Aristotle means by that.

326
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,960
Speaker 2: I'm not sure the full context, but if he's making

327
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,400
Speaker 2: a distinction between human beings and other animals, I think

328
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:26,080
Speaker 2: that's a fair observation that human babies are more helpless

329
00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,960
Speaker 2: than the newborns of most other animal species.

330
00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I think that's what he's going for here.

331
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:37,560
Speaker 1: There's another work on colors that is sometimes attributed to Aristotle,

332
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,600
Speaker 1: and in this it's pointed out that babies are ugly

333
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,280
Speaker 1: because or well, it's I'm not sure it says ugly,

334
00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:44,960
Speaker 1: but it points out that they're's Essentially, they're ugly because

335
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,280
Speaker 1: they have red faces and little hair.

336
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:51,720
Speaker 2: Do you ever get the feeling that like Aristotle might

337
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,159
Speaker 2: have been writing about human babies the same way he

338
00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:58,320
Speaker 2: was writing about like stingrays. It's just like this is

339
00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,000
Speaker 2: something he's observed a couple of times and made a

340
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:02,200
Speaker 2: few notes about.

341
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I've seen some pretty hairy little babies before,

342
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,280
Speaker 1: so I mean they think it ferries. Yeah, but yes,

343
00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:11,159
Speaker 1: on the whole they tend not die guess half of

344
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,280
Speaker 1: like a full head of hair or certainly a proper beard. Now.

345
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,720
Speaker 1: Galen was one of numerous physicians to comment on the

346
00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:21,639
Speaker 1: seeming wax like malleability and weakness of the baby. Weakness

347
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,240
Speaker 1: of the baby. Babies are so weak. They're they're weak,

348
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:27,680
Speaker 1: and they're they're basically made out of wax. Like if

349
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:29,560
Speaker 1: you don't handle them too much or you will change

350
00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:31,800
Speaker 1: their form completely. They do tend to be doe.

351
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. But also Galen, I can just tell

352
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,840
Speaker 2: this guy did not spend much time holding a baby because,

353
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,399
Speaker 2: like especially Galen, probably at a beard. I've got a beard.

354
00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,080
Speaker 2: When when you feel the baby, grab the beard and

355
00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,240
Speaker 2: just not leg this. This is the handle for the adult,

356
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,840
Speaker 2: and it will pull until it has a fist full

357
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,159
Speaker 2: of beard hair. You do not walk away with the

358
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,120
Speaker 2: impression of how weak babies are.

359
00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,880
Speaker 1: Aristotle also recorded that many babies die within the first

360
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,480
Speaker 1: week and are therefore not named before this period passes.

361
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,920
Speaker 1: And this is a kind of approach to the first

362
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,520
Speaker 1: week or so of a child's life that you see

363
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:18,080
Speaker 1: reflected in various cultures in various times. Meanwhile, Plutarch just

364
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,000
Speaker 1: wonders if babies are in fact animals, because they're more

365
00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:22,840
Speaker 1: like vegetables. They're more like a plant.

366
00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:27,280
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, plants cry at midnight, plants poop where

367
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,560
Speaker 2: they want to. That's exactly what a plant is.

368
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,800
Speaker 1: Dason adds this line here quote a mineral metaphor substitutes

369
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,480
Speaker 1: for the vegetable one in Chronos's myth, who ate his

370
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,040
Speaker 1: children as soon as they were born and thought a

371
00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,399
Speaker 1: stone to be a swaddled nursling. So you know, is

372
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,479
Speaker 1: it a baby is it a stone? Like anyone can

373
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:48,119
Speaker 1: tell the difference?

374
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,000
Speaker 2: I guess yeah. Is that supposed to be a comment

375
00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:55,160
Speaker 2: on how featureless and uninteresting babies are? Or is that

376
00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 2: myth supposed to be like a joke about Chronos being stupid?

377
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 1: I mean, granted I was as a modern English speaking human,

378
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,520
Speaker 1: I'm not the intended audience, I guess for the myth,

379
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:09,800
Speaker 1: but I always interpreted it as being like he's just

380
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:14,119
Speaker 1: so consumed with this need to destroy his young. You

381
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,080
Speaker 1: know that he's just like just gobbles them up without

382
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:17,160
Speaker 1: really tasting them, you.

383
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, more like he's more machine now than man,

384
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 2: almost like a he's a baby eating machine. He barely

385
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,280
Speaker 2: notices or has cognizance of what's going in his mouth.

386
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, after expressing some of these, again aristocratic male

387
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,760
Speaker 1: opinions on babies recorded in the literature, I think it's

388
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,520
Speaker 1: a good time to stress something that another author drives

389
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,879
Speaker 1: home as well. And this is from the work of

390
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,480
Speaker 1: Marine Carrol in Infant Death and Burial in Roman Italy

391
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,680
Speaker 1: from twenty fifteen. She points out that we base a

392
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 1: lot of our understanding of this topic on the writings

393
00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:56,400
Speaker 1: of stoic male, aristocratic literary elite, and also the arguments

394
00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 1: that the remains in Roman cemetery seem to bear this out.

395
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 1: The I think, quote unquote invisibility of the young child

396
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:06,120
Speaker 1: in Roman cemeteries.

397
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, and unfortunately this is true about a lot of

398
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,359
Speaker 2: things in the ancient world. When you have to consult

399
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 2: literary texts to get a flavor of ancient life, that's

400
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,440
Speaker 2: necessarily going to be leaving a lot of stuff out

401
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 2: because of the sexism of like who could receive literary

402
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 2: education and who was writing texts and stuff at the time.

403
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 2: You're going to get a lot of aristocratic male perspective.

404
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and certainly in a factor in stoicism, and then

405
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,399
Speaker 1: also the fact that maybe some of them did not

406
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 1: know how much hair baby had. On the on average,

407
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's it's well worth taking into account.

408
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,679
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, you do have this this

409
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,679
Speaker 1: argument that lines up with things with the writings of

410
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,400
Speaker 1: say Plutarch, who said that infants quote have no part

411
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 1: in earth or earthly things, and therefore they don't require

412
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:01,679
Speaker 1: any of the rites normally performed for the day. So

413
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 1: you know, there's just kind of this push and pull

414
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 1: over like what is the status of the infant? And

415
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 1: we can understand like this like stoic approach that's like, look,

416
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 1: there's a chance that things aren't going to go well,

417
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 1: and then therefore one should be prepared for that by

418
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 1: not fully integrating them into life essentially. But Carroll points

419
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,479
Speaker 1: out that these views do not necessarily represent those of

420
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,479
Speaker 1: of course other classes or certainly mothers during the time period.

421
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 1: So the seeming invisibility of young children in Italian cemeteries

422
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 1: of the time period is something that requires like further

423
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:41,959
Speaker 1: examination and perhaps a little more understanding. As opposed to

424
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 1: just like well, they weren't considered real things. Also of note,

425
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,160
Speaker 1: I was looking at a paper from twenty twelve, Child

426
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 1: Exposure in the Roman Empire by W. V. Harris, published

427
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 1: in the Journal of Roman Studies, pointing out the child

428
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 1: exposure like the leaving of a child, you know, in

429
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 1: the wild or out in the open, away from humans,

430
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,160
Speaker 1: that this was widely practiced in the Roman Empire, often

431
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 1: when quote physical viability and legitimacy were in doubt, but

432
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 1: that not everyone agreed with the practice. Stoics in particular

433
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 1: tended to believe that infants should live at the very

434
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: least if they're healthy and legitimate. And certainly there's plenty

435
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 1: of room for hypocrisy in something like that, But I

436
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 1: also wonder to what extent it backs up or counters

437
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: the idea that babies in general were considered only halfway real.

438
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 1: Here's another great chunk going back to from Dawson, going

439
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,680
Speaker 1: back to her paper quote for Aristotle, infants were defined

440
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 1: as a lower category of beings physically weak, mentally and

441
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 1: morally inept, with uncontrolled appetites, physical disproportions associate them with animals.

442
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: A heavy upper part explains why children move like quadrupeds,

443
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,439
Speaker 1: says Aristotle. Quote that is why infants cannot walk but

444
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,439
Speaker 1: crawl about, and at the very beginning cannot even crawl,

445
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 1: but remain where they are, but remain where they are.

446
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 1: This paper from Duston doesn't really get into memory all

447
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 1: that much. A lot of it is again we're dealing

448
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 1: more sort of the overarching views of young children and infants,

449
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 1: But Dustin does such on memory as well in this part.

450
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: Quote disproportions also explain mental incapacities. The heaviness of a

451
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: large head impairs the impulses of thoughts, and the infant's

452
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 1: memory is bad. Children are further associated with inferior categories

453
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: of human beings, such as old people physically weaker with

454
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: a poorer memory and less hair, with the insane and

455
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 1: the drunk with a similar irritable temperament and a disorderly behavior,

456
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: with women irrational, changeable and weak, and even with dwarfs.

457
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 2: So you ask what did ancient Greek philosophers think about babies?

458
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 2: And the answer is just a conglomeration of offensive opinions.

459
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, a lot of that is it seems to

460
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: remain in the literature, But that's and also stresses that

461
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,239
Speaker 1: while a lot of this may just sound like, you know,

462
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: babies are gross and the worst, there's also plenty of

463
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 1: evidence that the seeming deficiencies of babies were also very

464
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 1: much enjoyed. That it wasn't just like, oh, man, this

465
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 1: baby's like an old man. It's more like, oh, this

466
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: baby's like an old man, and the bonding still occurred

467
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 1: even in times of high mortality. Their smiles and their

468
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,679
Speaker 1: skin were written about as being irresistible. And also, I

469
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: thought this was neat quote. Myths of baby heroes transcend

470
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 1: children's deaths, and this is something perhaps we're thinking about.

471
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:39,399
Speaker 1: I don't know, we might get in this in the

472
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 1: second episode. We might come back at a later time,

473
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 1: but you do have a lot of baby heroes and

474
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 1: child gods and godlings and various myth and folkloric traditions

475
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: from the likes of baby Krishna to the Christ Child.

476
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: But anyways, sticking on the topic of memories of the

477
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 1: lack thereof and small children infants, it would seem that

478
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: you know, of course, the lack of memories from one's

479
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,919
Speaker 1: own infancy was very much a known factor, and that

480
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: it would make sense within a viewpoint that babies are

481
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: unfinished and imperfect. They have yet to cross through all

482
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 1: the stages of becoming truly human, becoming you know, truly

483
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 1: a part of a family unit, truly a part of society,

484
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 1: even if they still amuse us and we still have

485
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: a lot of emotions about them. Now, we mentioned earlier

486
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 1: cultural differences that could impact just how early one remembers

487
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: one's life are what one's earliest memories happened to be,

488
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,360
Speaker 1: and I was looking at an article titled the Culture

489
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: of Memory by Leo Winterman, published by the American Psychological

490
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: Society back in two thousand and five. The author here

491
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: points to research that shows that quote the average age

492
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: of first memories up to two years between different cultures,

493
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 1: and it seems to come down to the weight and

494
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: importance of memory within a specific cultural system. According to

495
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: Michelle Leichtmann, PhD, cited in the article quote, people who

496
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: grow up in societies that focus on individual personal history,

497
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 1: like the United States, or ones that focus on personal

498
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: family history like the Maori will have different and often

499
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: earlier childhood memories than people who grow up in cultures that,

500
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: like many Asian cultures, value interdependence rather than personal autonomy.

501
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 1: So a key nineteen ninety four study from psychologist Mary

502
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: Mullen published in the journal Cognition as more than seven

503
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: hundred Caucasian and Asian or Asian American undergrads to describe

504
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: their earliest memory. On average, Asian and Asian American student

505
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: memories happened six months later. A subsequent study and Know

506
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: there were many subsequent studies that examined different slices of

507
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: all this. In this case from and found a sixteen

508
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 1: month gap between Caucasian Americans and Native Koreans. These studies

509
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: led to a host of others, and it seems to

510
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 1: follow the basic social interaction model. Quote. According to this model,

511
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: our autobiographical memories don't develop in a vacuum. Instead, as children,

512
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: we encode our memories of events as we talk over

513
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: those events with the adults in our life. The more

514
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: those adults encourage us to spin an elaborate narrative tale,

515
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: the more likely we are to remember details about the

516
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: event later.

517
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 2: This absolutely details with much of what I've been reading

518
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 2: that sort of an interactive rehearsal of memories helps make

519
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 2: those memories stronger. But sort of the paradox of memory.

520
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 2: And this is true not just of childhood. I think

521
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 2: this is true of adult memory as well, is that

522
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 2: while that produces a stronger memory consolidation and you are

523
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 2: better able to retrieve that memory later, it also makes

524
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 2: the memory more subject to contamination by whatever input you're

525
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 2: getting from the person you're rehearsing it with.

526
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: Or even from outside sources such as advertising. I don't

527
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: know if this is still the case, but many years

528
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,239
Speaker 1: ago I went to the Coca Cola Museum here in

529
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: Atlanta with my mother and there was some bit of advertising.

530
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if it was current advertising or past advertising,

531
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: but the gist of it was Coca Cola. We've always

532
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: been there, like we were a part of your essentially

533
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: saying we were a part of all those memories that

534
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: you hold deer and I often think think of that

535
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: when I'm encounter branding from this company, because I'm because

536
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: it's good, it's really infectious. It does a great job,

537
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: but it is it is kind of like trying to

538
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: worm its way in there, Like do you remember that

539
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: that great memory from your childhood? I bet there was

540
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: a Coca Cola on the table. And even if there wasn't, bam,

541
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: there is now Well.

542
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 2: You could say it's genius, maybe even insidious, the way

543
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 2: that they insinuate their branding into inherently nostalgic imagery. So

544
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 2: like the Santa Claus with the Coca Cola, Yeah, I

545
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 2: think that's not an accident. That's like to try to

546
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: integrate the brand with your earliest and best feelings from childhood.

547
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 2: Oh boy, Christmas is coming, here's Santa. And what Santa

548
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 2: got in his hand a coke? Of course, that's just

549
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 2: part of the Santa lore.

550
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so so yeah, there's a you could really

551
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: get into into advertising and so forth and all of

552
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: this as well. But yeah, so even within a given culture,

553
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: and they're gonna have this sort of different cultural leanings

554
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: based on what sort of emphasis you place an individual experience.

555
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: But also there's gonna be there are gonna be differences

556
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: even within a culture based on high elaborative and low

557
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: elaborative mothers. And I take this to mean you could

558
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: basically mean any person in an individual's life, but they're

559
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: using mother it's the main example. So basically the question

560
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: is is a child routinely ask for detailed stories about

561
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 1: their daily life or they ask mostly closed questions. And

562
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: this is interesting think about like yeah. Is the child

563
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: asked to like fully explain their day or is it

564
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: just like did you eat lunch today? Yes? Did you

565
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: eat your snack? Yes? That sort of thing, and not

566
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: to say either approach is better than the other. Life

567
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 1: is busy and sometimes you just got to make sure

568
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 1: that your child ate a snack and you don't need

569
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: the full story. But it is interesting to think about,

570
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: like perhaps the necessity for that balance, you know, to

571
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: get a full account of what the day was like,

572
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 1: as opposed to just like did you do the things

573
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: that were acquired?

574
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 2: Well, this also connects to some things I was reading

575
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 2: about how very young children can in fact answer questions

576
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 2: about things that happened to them recently, or at least

577
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 2: they typically can. This has been studied, but one thing

578
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 2: I was reading was that how well, say, I don't

579
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: know a you know, a two and a half year

580
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 2: old can describe a memory of a recent event depends

581
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 2: very much on how you elicit the memory from them.

582
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 2: And you might have seen parents doing this. You know,

583
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 2: I'm not at that stage yet in parenting, but I've

584
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 2: seen other parents doing this kind of thing. It's like,

585
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 2: what did we do on your birthday? You know, did

586
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 2: we go somewhere? Where did we go? And so you

587
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 2: can kind of like talk the child through the memory

588
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 2: in a way that it seems like the child may

589
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 2: not be able to produce the details and connect them spontaneously.

590
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 2: Did that make sense or was that?

591
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, no, no, It makes me think of other

592
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: memory exercises where like if one is having like the

593
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: tip of the tongue scenario, where if someone is having

594
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: if you're having difficulty remembering a particular name or whatever,

595
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,719
Speaker 1: like it's better for your memory for you to keep

596
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: trying to guess, or for the person on the other

597
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: end of the conversation to encourage you to guess and

598
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: not to just give it to you. That sort of thing,

599
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: like making the brain work for those details.

600
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 2: That's true. That was a finding at that episode we did,

601
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 2: wasn't it that? Like you're more likely to remember the

602
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 2: detail you're searching for next time if somebody gives you

603
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: a hint. Can you make the connection yourself versus if

604
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 2: you just look up the answer? Yeah?

605
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Anyway, and all this, I think it is important

606
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: to mention something that Michelle Likeman points out here, and

607
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: that is again that there's not a wrong direction in

608
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 1: any of this, the brain remembers what it needs to remember.

609
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: We remember what we need to remember. Social pressure contributes

610
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 1: to this, but it is what it is now.

611
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 2: One question I thought we should look at before we

612
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 2: wrap things up today is like, Okay, we keep talking

613
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 2: in more general terms about like, well, there's an earlier

614
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 2: period where most people can't really produce any memories from

615
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 2: that period of their lives, and then a later period

616
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 2: where they can. But what are the actual numbers, like

617
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 2: when does that kick in? This is something that has

618
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 2: been studied extensively. There are certainly different methods, and I

619
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 2: think we might be able to add some nuance to

620
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 2: this answer later on, but it seems to me like

621
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 2: the sort of magic age is like three to four years.

622
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 2: About three and a half years is what most studies

623
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 2: have converged on. And to be clear, also, when we

624
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 2: talk about childhood amnesia in the scientific literature, it seems

625
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,280
Speaker 2: often to refer to two different things that are related.

626
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 2: One is the loss of all memories as far as

627
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 2: we can tell, from before the earliest memory we can produce.

628
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 2: And then the second thing is the relative scarcity of

629
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 2: memories from the early years of childhood compared to equivalent

630
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 2: spans of time from later in life. So, for example,

631
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 2: even though you have some autobiographical memories from ages six

632
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 2: to seven, if you are like most people, you will

633
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 2: have a fewer number of spontaneous memories that you can

634
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 2: recall from that period than from say, sixteen to seventeen.

635
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 2: And I thought it was also interesting to just look

636
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 2: at the different experimental methods for trying to find out

637
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 2: what people's earliest memory are. There are a number of

638
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 2: ways to approach this. Sometimes it's done by, say, just

639
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 2: asking people to describe their earliest memory and estimate at

640
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 2: what age it took place. That is, of course a

641
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 2: perfectly good place to start, but putting aside for a

642
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,280
Speaker 2: moment the question of like the accuracy of these memories,

643
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 2: you could imagine reasons why just asking somebody what is

644
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 2: your earliest memory might not actually produce their earliest memory.

645
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 2: For one thing, most people don't keep their memories indexed

646
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 2: in a sortable form. You know, it's not an Excel

647
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 2: sheet that has a sort by column for date. And

648
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 2: so you may have a memory that occurs to you

649
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 2: in one moment as the earliest you can remember, but

650
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,359
Speaker 2: how do you know in another circumstance, you wouldn't think

651
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 2: of an earlier one that just didn't occur to you

652
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:45,959
Speaker 2: at that time.

653
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,919
Speaker 1: Yeah. Plus, I guess it's worth considering that in many,

654
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: but certainly not all cases, you have sort of a

655
00:36:53,680 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: stability to early childhood. Certainly that is desired that there

656
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 1: would be sort of a sameness to a lot of

657
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 1: the early memories. You know, it's like you know one

658
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 1: or both parents are there, perhaps the immediate physical surroundings

659
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 1: are the same. So, like, what is going to be

660
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 1: present in a memory to distinguish it and set it

661
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: apart in the timeline again, unless you go back later

662
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: and then you have encoded it and then you identify it,

663
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: maybe falsely, and say, oh, well, this is a memory of,

664
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 1: say when we lived at this house or when we

665
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 1: lived in this town.

666
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that raises important questions about like the characteristics

667
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 2: of what counts as a memory, Like I wonder if

668
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 2: there's a sort of boundary being established by the terms

669
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,760
Speaker 2: of the demand for recall. For example, an autobiographical memory

670
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 2: needs to be something you can put into words and

671
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 2: explain to somebody else. But do you ever get that

672
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 2: feeling that you're experiencing nostalgia, but it's not for a

673
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 2: thing in the outside world. Maybe not for an image

674
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 2: or an event, but something that isn't really something you

675
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 2: can put into words. It's like nostalgia for an internal

676
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 2: state or a feeling that's kind of strange thing. I

677
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 2: sometimes have that sensation. Of course, when I have that feeling,

678
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 2: it's totally possible the memory component of the sensation of

679
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 2: nostalgia could be illusory. But sometimes I wonder if maybe

680
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 2: feelings like that could be based in really old memories

681
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: that can't be put into words or something.

682
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm having trouble remembering a specific example of this,

683
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 1: but I think some of my early memories definitely have

684
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 1: this component to them. Even if I do remember like

685
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: a basic setting or event around them, there is like

686
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: a there is at least as strong the feeling of

687
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: what it meant. Like. There's one particular early memory I

688
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 1: have of like running around in circles in a living room,

689
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,879
Speaker 1: around like a dinner, like a dining room table in

690
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 1: a living room or a dining room that just seemed enormous,

691
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: you know, like a cathedral, And so part of it

692
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 1: is like these vague memories of what this space looked like,

693
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: but it's also equally met by the exhilaration that is

694
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 1: remembered of just kind of like this, you know, this

695
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 1: running around And it is hard to really explain, like

696
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: give what that means, because if I were to run

697
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 1: around in circles right now, it would certainly not be

698
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 1: the same feeling. You know, it doesn't relate to other

699
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: memories of physical exertion from other points in my life.

700
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 2: Oh. But then, to come back to other methods to

701
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 2: study early memories, another one that seems to be used

702
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 2: fairly often is the word Q test. So this one's

703
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 2: pretty interesting. I say a word to you, and then

704
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 2: I ask you to tell me a memory associated with

705
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 2: this word. Just any memory. We could try it right now, rob,

706
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 2: do you want to do it, cheer, let's do it. Okay,

707
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 2: tell me a memory associated with the word jar.

708
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 1: Oh, that's easy. I have an early memory of trying

709
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: to get a jar of Maraschino cherries out of the

710
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 1: refrigerator by myself, and I dropped it and broke it

711
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 1: or spilled it. I'm not sure if I broke it

712
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: or spilled it, but that is a strong early memory of.

713
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 2: Mine, Okay. And then from here in the experiment. I

714
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 2: might ask you for some subsequent details, like you know,

715
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 2: who was there, did anybody else witness this memory? Et cetera,

716
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 2: et cetera, And then I would also ask you estimate

717
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 2: what age you were when this memory happened. But what

718
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 2: age do you think it was?

719
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: I would say maybe maybe three, But that's just a

720
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: real that's a huge guess. And I think I've actually

721
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 1: asked my mother about this memory before. And you know,

722
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 1: this is the kind of thing where like kids have

723
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: things like this happen all the time, they don't necessarily,

724
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily something a parent is going to specifically remember.

725
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: It makes more of an impact on the child than

726
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 1: the parent. So I have no idea exactly when this occurred.

727
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 2: Okay, but this is a good answer. Jar of cherries

728
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 2: on the floor, maybe spilled, maybe broken. You think you

729
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 2: were around three? So I keep doing this. I do

730
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 2: this for a big list of words, maybe with a

731
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 2: big sample of people, and then you can sort of

732
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 2: cross reference all of the answers. You get to look

733
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 2: at what ages the memories tend to come from. And

734
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 2: you could see by this method that of just making

735
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 2: up random numbers here, but say by randomly associating memories

736
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 2: with words, we end up with people telling us about

737
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 2: twenty percent more memories from ages sixteen to twenty than

738
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 2: from ages six to ten or something. So I think

739
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 2: that's a pretty clever method. But anyway, what this research

740
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 2: tends to converge on is that a really important time

741
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 2: is roughly the age three to four, or like three

742
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 2: and a half. Generally, the earliest memories that adults can

743
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 2: produce are around the ages of three to four, and

744
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 2: there is not much or nothing from before that, and

745
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 2: then after that there is a gradual increase in the

746
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 2: quantity of autobiographical memories from each year of age up

747
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 2: until maybe like seven or eight, when the autobiographical memory

748
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 2: stores starts to look more like that the rest of adulthood.

749
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 2: So for most people looking backwards, memories tend to start

750
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 2: around three or four, and then you get more of

751
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 2: them at five, more of them at six, more of

752
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 2: them at seven, more of them at eight, and then

753
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,240
Speaker 2: you start to reach a more kind of complete adult

754
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 2: memory set. Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that children before

755
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 2: the age of three or four produce no autobiographical memories. Instead,

756
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 2: it seems like there may be a sort of period

757
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 2: of forgetting, and I thought this was very interesting. Just

758
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 2: one study I wanted to mention quickly that gets at this.

759
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 2: It was published in the journal Memory in two thousand

760
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 2: and five by Dana Van Abama and Patricia Bauer, and

761
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 2: it's called Autobiographical Memory in Middle Childhood Recollections of the

762
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 2: Recent and Distant Past. Now, I was looking for the

763
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 2: full text of the study and I couldn't find it

764
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 2: before we recorded today, but I did find a summary

765
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 2: of the findings in a Psychology Today article by an

766
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 2: author named Vitelli. And basically what happened in the study

767
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 2: is that children were interviewed about autobiographical events along with

768
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 2: their mothers at the age of three, and they produced

769
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 2: details about those events. So something they did, you know,

770
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,760
Speaker 2: a trip out to do something, and they could recall

771
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,959
Speaker 2: things about their own past, so they had some form

772
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 2: of episodic memory. They could be prompted to retrieve details

773
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 2: about these episodic memories. But those same children were brought

774
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 2: back years later at ages seven, eight, and nine, exactly

775
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,879
Speaker 2: the range at which there seems to be a profound

776
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:40,919
Speaker 2: forgetting of early childhood memories. So from vitelli summary here,

777
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 2: the seven year olds could recall sixty percent of the

778
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 2: same autobiographical events they were called at three, but the

779
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,959
Speaker 2: eight and nine year olds could only recall thirty six

780
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 2: and thirty eight percent of events, So there seems to

781
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 2: be a major drop off of memories from this early

782
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 2: period around the ages of seven, eight, and nine.

783
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this kind of matches up with some

784
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: stuff I've observed with my own son, mostly in talking

785
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,479
Speaker 1: about things that we watched together when he was in

786
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: like one age group versus another, so and and it

787
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: varies I think from picture to picture, Like there's some

788
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: movies that maybe we've we've talked about more that have

789
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: become more like of sort of a regular part of

790
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:27,839
Speaker 1: one's life, and then there are other movies where you

791
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: like watch it, forget it, and then maybe truly forget

792
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,240
Speaker 1: it and then come back and experience it again.

793
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 2: Now, why patterns like this emerge is something I think

794
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 2: we'll have to get into more when we come back

795
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 2: in subsequent parts of the series. I'm not sure how

796
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 2: many we're going to go to. We'll have at least

797
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 2: one more part, maybe maybe a couple more.

798
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's certainly going to be a plenty to get

799
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: into for a part two, possibly a part three, But

800
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 1: as we often have pointed out, we're we're hesitant to

801
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 1: say this will definitely go to a certain number of

802
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 1: episodes because we're often just a little unsure where we're

803
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 1: going to cut it off. Well, how about you, Joe's

804
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 1: we close out this episode. What's what comes to mind

805
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 1: is your earliest jar related memory? Jars only, please, and

806
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 1: if it even if it's from the last five years,

807
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 1: that's cool too.

808
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 2: Well to bore you with dreadful cliche. I think catching

809
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 2: fireflies in a jar that is very early. We did

810
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 2: that a lot when I was a kid in our

811
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 2: front yard. We had lots of them. I think I

812
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 2: also have very early memories of pickle jars, because I

813
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:34,319
Speaker 2: recall from early childhood being really into pickles pickled cucumbers,

814
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,359
Speaker 2: like a like a Clawson's pickle jar.

815
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 1: Oh oh yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, clearly I had more

816
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 1: I guess the sweet tooth as a child, but my

817
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 1: son has always been super into pickles of all different varieties,

818
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: from the the little cornishans to the big dill pickles,

819
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 1: to the big bread and butter pickles, to the slices,

820
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 1: all of it.

821
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 2: Though with both of those, I guess those are just

822
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 2: sort of like ambiguous continue states of childhood. Catching fireflies

823
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:04,839
Speaker 2: in jars. It's just something that happened often. I don't

824
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 2: remember a particular instance of it. Same with admiring the

825
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 2: pickle jar and wanting its contents. If I had to

826
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 2: produce a more I don't know, a direct autobiographical specific memory,

827
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 2: it'd probably be a more recent one. I don't remember.

828
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 2: If I think you asked me for my earliest but

829
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 2: if I were just doing the wordqu test, i'd probably say, oh,

830
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 2: from when I was thirty five and I made and

831
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 2: I made kim chi and a large jar on my table,

832
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 2: and I remember how it smelled and all that.

833
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 1: Oh nice. Well, you know, I think it's worth telling everyone, like,

834
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 1: go out now and create some positive jar based memories

835
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 1: with your children, even if they're grown now. It's never

836
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: too late to create a jar based memory. All right. Well,

837
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 1: on that note, we're going to go and close up

838
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,760
Speaker 1: this episode, but we'll be back with more on this topic,

839
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 1: and in the meantime, certainly right in with your thoughts

840
00:46:57,880 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 1: on all of this, and yeah, if you want to

841
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 1: share some of your earliest memories with us and sort

842
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 1: of attempt to define when these memories occurred, and if

843
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 1: you have any, if you've been able to dig around

844
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 1: and to ask other people to sort of prove them out,

845
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 1: to see if they are in fact largely authentic or

846
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 1: if they've been augmented in any way. Yeah, we'd love

847
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: to hear.

848
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 2: From everyone throughout these episodes, but this is going to

849
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 2: produce a skewed sample because we're going to hear from

850
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 2: everybody who's like, I can remember being one, But people

851
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:29,399
Speaker 2: aren't going to write in to tell us I don't

852
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 2: remember being one.

853
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 1: No, right, you can write in with that if you're like,

854
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:37,240
Speaker 1: my earliest memory is being you know, five or older whatever,

855
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: right in. Like we said, there is no wrong answer here.

856
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: The people who claim to remember being born, it doesn't

857
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,719
Speaker 1: mean their brain is better, their memory is better than

858
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: another individual. Again, we're going to continue to discuss this

859
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 1: as as we explore this topic. No wrong answers, all right, Yeah,

860
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 1: so we close it out. Will just remind you that

861
00:47:58,320 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: core episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind publish on

862
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:01,879
Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays, and the Stuff to Blow Your Mind

863
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 1: podcast feed on Mondays. We do listener mail. On Wednesdays,

864
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: we do a short form Monster Factor Artifact episode, and

865
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 1: on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to just

866
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 1: talk about a weird film and oh and this week,

867
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be a pretty fun one

868
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,799
Speaker 1: that will tie in with early childhood memories for many people,

869
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 1: because I think we do form a lot of early

870
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 1: childhood memories based on movies we're exposed to. So perhaps

871
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 1: we'll get into a bat a little bit as we

872
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 1: discussed this week's title.

873
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 2: Huge Thanks to our audio producer JJ Posway. If you

874
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 2: would like to get in touch with us with feedback

875
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 2: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

876
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:38,919
Speaker 2: for the future, or just to say hello, you can

877
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 2: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind

878
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 2: dot com.

879
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

880
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 3: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

881
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:15,240
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.