1 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: Hi. 2 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 2: and speaker. 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer, 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 3: and course creator. We are two working parents who love 6 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 3: our careers and our families. 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about 8 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 2: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, 9 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 2: from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. 10 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life. 11 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds, This says Laura. This 12 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 2: episode is airing in mid March of twenty twenty four. 13 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 2: I am going to be interviewing Emily P. Freeman about 14 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,160 Speaker 2: her new book How to Walk into a Room, which 15 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 2: is not really about how to walk into our room. 16 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: It's about knowing when. 17 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 2: It is time to move on from one chapter of 18 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 2: life to another. And so this book is a lot 19 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 2: about endings, and so it's an interesting question because we 20 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 2: don't always know that something is ending, and I think 21 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 2: people in general don't handle endings necessarily as well as 22 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 2: we could, or as mindfully as we could, and so 23 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 2: that's a topic we talk about. 24 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: A lot in this interview. 25 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 2: So Sarah, have you had a last time for something 26 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 2: that you didn't actually know was an ending at the time. 27 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 3: I would say a lot of the stuff I did 28 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 3: towards the end of my program director journey through a 29 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 3: lot of last times that I may not have really 30 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 3: like thought about we're going to be last times, not 31 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 3: that the end was so abrupt. I guess maybe I 32 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 3: did maybe have some awareness, but I didn't really think 33 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 3: of the poignancy of what that really meant, like the 34 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 3: last time I interviewed candidates, or the last time I 35 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 3: ran a faculty meeting or something like that. And you know, 36 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 3: it's interesting. I don't think I'm someone who does super 37 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 3: well with endings in general. I don't mind moving on 38 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 3: to things, and I'm certainly I don't shy away from 39 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 3: quitting things that are working. I feel like that's actually 40 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 3: a strength of mind. But when it comes to ceremoniously 41 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 3: like acknowledging the closing of something, I think it's something 42 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 3: I need to work on. So I'm excited for this interview. 43 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 3: What about you? 44 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was thinking about a couple indings that I 45 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 2: didn't necessarily know were endings at the time. My parents 46 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 2: had you know, I lived with them in South be 47 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 2: In Indiana for a couple of years, and then they 48 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 2: were there for about twenty years after I left, and 49 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,839 Speaker 2: I went to go stay in their house with them 50 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 2: one night and a couple of years ago, and it 51 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 2: turned out then a couple of months after that that 52 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 2: they decided to sell the house and retire and move 53 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:38,639 Speaker 2: out to the East Coast. So that was certainly the 54 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 2: last time I will ever be in that house. I mean, 55 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 2: I may not wind up in South Bend, Indiana for 56 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 2: any particular reason. I mean, there's no real reason to 57 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 2: go there if they are not there, and it's not 58 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 2: the kind of place you just wind up necessarily passing through. 59 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 2: So that's kind of crazy to think too that I 60 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 2: might who knows if I'll ever be there again, but 61 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 2: certainly I will probably not be in that house that 62 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 2: I spent a great many nights in in the course 63 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 2: of my life. Where else to thinking of this? So 64 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 2: sometimes you think things are the end and they're not 65 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 2: than they are. And then with nursing babies, So if 66 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 2: anyone I don't know, some people have read my newsletters 67 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 2: for a long long time, and I had mentioned something 68 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 2: about it being a last time for I thought in 69 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 2: it was probably March or April of twenty sixteen. Then 70 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 2: baby Alex, who was you know, about fifteen months at 71 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 2: the time, is the last time I've been nursing a baby. 72 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, that's the end of a chapter 73 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 2: of my life. But of course, haha. Then we decided 74 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 2: to have another baby, so is in it for several 75 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 2: more years since it turns out that this particular baby 76 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 2: was way into it, so that took longer to end 77 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 2: that journey than I thought. But there has, in fact 78 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 2: now been a last time for nursing a baby. 79 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: It's about that time. It's definitely time. 80 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, And sometimes it's true you don't know when the 81 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 3: end is going to be. And reflecting back on that, 82 00:03:57,640 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 3: I'm not sure I knew my last time with Cameron 83 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 3: was giving me my last time because he was my 84 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 3: child who like just one day was like I'm not 85 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 3: doing this, Like you don't know that's coming necessarily. Maybe 86 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 3: there are some signs and that can be really heartbreaking. 87 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 3: But then at the same time, maybe it's better not 88 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 3: to know that it's the last time, because again, I 89 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 3: don't like endings, so maybe that's. 90 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: A good thing. Yeah, yeah, well, you know, I had 91 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 1: more of a sense of that. 92 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 2: Finally, with this the fifth baby is like, okay, the 93 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 2: last time for various things with babyhood. But you know 94 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 2: the thing about having five kids, as you're probably ready 95 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 2: by the end of the fifth kid to have that 96 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 2: be the last time you potty train a child, for instance, 97 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 2: I'm kind of a thankless task. All right, Well, let's 98 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 2: hear what Emily has to say about endings and how 99 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 2: we can be a little bit more mindful about them. 100 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 2: So Sarah and I are delighted to welcome Emily P. 101 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 2: Freeman to the program. So, Emily, could you introduce yourself 102 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 2: to our listeners. 103 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 4: I would love to. It's so great to be here 104 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 4: with you today. Well, I am joining you from North Carolina, 105 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 4: where I live with my husband John. We've been together 106 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 4: twenty two years and we have three kids, twins who 107 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:03,119 Speaker 4: are twenty one seventeen, so we've lived the whole life 108 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 4: together of navigating. We've almost made it through the teen years, 109 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 4: which has been great. But I'm an author, I'm a 110 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 4: podcast host. I have a podcast called The Next Right Thing, 111 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 4: where I help people who experience decision fatigue and chronic 112 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 4: hesitation discern their next right thing. In faith, work in. 113 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 2: Life awesome, awesome, And so of course we're here talking 114 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 2: about Emily's new book which is called How to Walk. 115 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: Into a Room. 116 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 2: But we are not literally walking into any rooms with 117 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 2: you know, Pizaz or anything like that. It's more of 118 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 2: an allegorical sort of thing. So maybe you can explain 119 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 2: explain the metaphor for us. 120 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 4: Sure, I had a nine year old say, well that's easy. Watch, 121 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 4: I'll do it right now, I can open the door. 122 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 4: Watch get me doing it, which I love that, you know. 123 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 4: The idea really is that if life were a house, 124 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 4: then every room holds a story. And I think we 125 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 4: all understand what it's like to walk into a literal 126 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 4: room and feel like, yeah, this is a room where 127 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 4: I belong, This is my room, this is my place. 128 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 4: We also understand the physical feeling of walking into a 129 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 4: room where you're like, this is not my place. I 130 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 4: do not belong here. But really, the question that I'm 131 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 4: positing in this book is the question of what do 132 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 4: you do when a room that you're in is no 133 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 4: longer a room where you belong? What do I do 134 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 4: when I'm having to discern, oh, this was my place 135 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 4: vocationally or connection wise or friend group wise or volunteer 136 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 4: work wise, and then you begin to realize, oh, something 137 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 4: has shifted either in the room, in the people around me, 138 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 4: or in myself, and I need to discern, Okay, what 139 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 4: do I do? How do I leave this place? Is 140 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 4: it time to leave this place? And what am I 141 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 4: going to do next? So, because that's where I have 142 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 4: found in conversations with people about decision making, where we 143 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 4: feel the most stuck is when we're considering leaving a space, 144 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 4: especially one that we either fought really hard to get 145 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 4: to or means a whole lot to us. 146 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:59,039 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean, I find this concept of endings fascinating 147 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 2: because everyone knows there's a beginning to something. I mean, 148 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 2: you start something, you come up with new ideas, you 149 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 2: plunge into things. But everything also has an end, right, Like, 150 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 2: everything is going to end at some point, whether it's 151 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 2: that eternal weekly staff meeting, like there's going to be 152 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 2: a Tuesday where there isn't a staff meeting, or probably 153 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 2: before that, a time you were not leading it or 154 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 2: whatever it is, but there's going to be a Tuesday 155 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 2: without it. Right, you know, there's an end to absolutely, 156 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, do people really think about that? 157 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 2: I mean, as you study decision making, I mean, do 158 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 2: people go into most things knowing there is going to 159 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 2: be an end or even thinking about that. 160 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 4: It's such a great point because I think we often 161 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 4: think when something ends, we're surprised by it. We feel 162 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 4: like we have made wrong choices. We feel like maybe 163 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 4: I've wasted my time and maybe I'm doing something wrong 164 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 4: or I've done something wrong, when in reality, things ending 165 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 4: is the normal, healthy human rhythm of life. But because 166 00:07:58,000 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 4: we expect that if I'm doing if I've made the 167 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 4: right choice to begin with, and if I'm doing the 168 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 4: right things in the room, then nothing will ever change. 169 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 4: And I think that's the thing that we need to 170 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 4: shift our narrative about, because the reality is, for one thing, 171 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 4: just because you're good at something doesn't mean you have 172 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 4: to do it forever. And I think sometimes we think like, oh, 173 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 4: but I went to college for this job and I 174 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 4: am really good at it, and people would kill to 175 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 4: have this position, So who am I. We start to 176 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 4: have like labels on ourselves, like I must be selfish, 177 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 4: I must be an idiot, I must not know what 178 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 4: I'm doing. If I'm considering walking away from this thing 179 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 4: or considering trying something new where I have to God 180 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 4: forbid be a beginner again. And so I think a 181 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 4: big part of our work is to begin to change 182 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 4: our narrative about what it means to be successful, what 183 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 4: it means that this place worked for me. Because the 184 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 4: reality is, if you were in a job for five 185 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 4: ten years and you start to sense a change, it 186 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 4: doesn't mean you wasted five or ten years of your life. 187 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 4: It means you lived those five or ten years and 188 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 4: now something has changed and it's time to do something else. 189 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 4: But it doesn't have to mean something about me as 190 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 4: a human person. It doesn't have to be an identity thing. 191 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, because I guess that's the that falls in. 192 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:11,439 Speaker 2: You know, we need to be better about dealing with me. 193 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 2: Called the chosen endings in life. You know that you 194 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 2: talk about how there are anticipated endings. I mean, you 195 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 2: kind of hope your kids will graduate from high school 196 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 2: at some point and go on to whatever the next 197 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 2: thing is for them. There's the forced endings, which seem 198 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 2: unfortunate sometimes but it happens, you know, you lose a 199 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 2: job or whatever else. It's you know, these things happen. 200 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 2: It's the chosen endings that are the complicated ones. 201 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 4: They're the ones where we have to decide to stay 202 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 4: or go, and sometimes we would rather someone else decide 203 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 4: it for us. Unfortunately, we can't most of the time 204 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 4: delegate our decision making when it comes to our own lives. 205 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,479 Speaker 4: We thankfully have choice, but sometimes that makes it complicated 206 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 4: because we want to make so desperately. We want to 207 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 4: make the right one, and we're afraid we're going to 208 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 4: mess it all up. 209 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. 210 00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I've ever heard that from people like a 211 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 2: They were actually kind of relieved to be laid off 212 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 2: or whatever it is that you know, because they were 213 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 2: on their way out, but this made the decision for them. 214 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 2: In your book, you talk about the fact that you 215 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: moved a lot as a kid, and I wonder if 216 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 2: that has contributed to your sense of understanding that things 217 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 2: end in a way that I think some people don't. 218 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:24,199 Speaker 4: It's interesting you say that, because I don't know that 219 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 4: I have fully put that together, but I think you 220 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 4: might be right. My dad was in a We moved 221 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 4: a lot when I was a kid. He was a 222 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 4: disc jockey on the radio, which is so funny. People like, oh, 223 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 4: was you were you in the military. It was your 224 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 4: dad in the military. No, he was in radio, but 225 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 4: it did. 226 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: You had to go as often for radio we did 227 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: the military. 228 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 4: And you move around, and so I do think that 229 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 4: afforded me a worldview that understood that if you want 230 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 4: to make friends here, you better do it quickly because 231 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 4: this isn't going to last forever. And in some ways 232 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 4: that's really sad to think of. But in another way, 233 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 4: it was a character building exercise as a kid that 234 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 4: I didn't even know because I got to meet a 235 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 4: lot of different people and I got to learn that 236 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 4: this thing can be good for as long as it's good, 237 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 4: and also if it's terrible, it won't last forever. And 238 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 4: so I think I've experienced that as a kid. I 239 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 4: would not have articulated it that way. In contrast, my 240 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,719 Speaker 4: husband John, he was born in, grew up in, and 241 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 4: we still live in his hometown. So when we talk about, 242 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 4: you know, there have been times in when you have 243 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 4: twenty years together, there's times when you think about, like 244 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 4: what if we were to move or go to this 245 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 4: other place. We haven't done it yet. We've moved houses, 246 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 4: but not towns, and our conversation is really different. His 247 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 4: way of thinking about making a change is different than mine. 248 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 4: I see such value now, like being in one place 249 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 4: and having roots and our kids are in one place. 250 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 4: He sort of has more of like whoa would it 251 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 4: be like to be someplace else? And I think it's 252 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 4: really important to recognize and to know about ourselves what 253 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 4: our own narratives of staying and leaving are, because they're 254 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 4: going to inform all of the decisions we make. 255 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 256 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 2: Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and 257 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 2: then we'll be back talking about some specific endings that 258 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 2: have happened in your life that maybe you can share 259 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 2: how you made those decisions. Well, I am back interviewing 260 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 2: Emily P. Freeman, who is the author of the brand 261 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 2: new book how to Walk into a Room Again, not 262 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:32,319 Speaker 2: literally walking into a room, We hope you figured that 263 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 2: out a few years ago, but how we make decisions 264 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 2: about making big changes in our lives, and particularly as 265 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 2: we're talking about today, how we know whether. 266 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: To end things. 267 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 2: Earlier, you mentioned if you're in a room that you've 268 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 2: perhaps fought for, or helped create, or anything like that, 269 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 2: it can be particularly challenging to figure out that it 270 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 2: might be time to end things. And you talk about 271 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 2: two experiences that you have had with ending things that 272 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 2: I'd like to talk on both of them. One was 273 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 2: ending your involvement in a business that you had helped start, 274 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 2: So maybe you can talk a little bit about that 275 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 2: and what led to your decision to end there and 276 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 2: how you made that choice. 277 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 4: We started this business seven eight years ago, and it 278 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 4: was an online company for writers to help writers kind 279 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 4: of figure out that they had a voice and to 280 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 4: maybe if they wanted to get published, to help them 281 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 4: understand what that looks like. And so it was all 282 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 4: about balancing the art of writing the business of publishing. 283 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 4: But it started out, as sometimes these things do, as 284 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 4: a hobby. It was sort of like a side thing. 285 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 4: We made a little money, but over time, specifically during 286 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 4: the COVID years, that hobby grew into a full time gig. 287 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 4: And it was surprising. It was a gift. But before 288 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 4: I knew it, this thing that I had started on 289 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:53,079 Speaker 4: the side and was really happy about and loved and enjoyed, 290 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 4: and there were hard parts about it, but as all 291 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 4: things go, but now it became kind of front and center, 292 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 4: and I went from sort of being like a creative 293 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 4: and being able to express myself as a writer to 294 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 4: helping other people express themselves as writers to then managing 295 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 4: a team who could help the people. So I went 296 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 4: from sort of being the maker to being more of 297 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 4: a manager. And I don't know if you've read Paul 298 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,959 Speaker 4: Graham's essay about maker time and manager time, but I 299 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 4: recognized very quickly that manager time is not the way 300 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 4: I roll, and so that was a big contributor to 301 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 4: me understanding and recognizing, like, my days are probably numbered 302 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 4: in this type of business. But much like you know 303 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 4: I talk about in endings all the time, we really 304 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 4: want for our endings to line up with like it's 305 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 4: time to go and I feel ready, And those are 306 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 4: wonderful times when that happens. But the reality is most 307 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 4: of us live in the gap in between, which is 308 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 4: I'm ready to go, but it's not time. And that's 309 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 4: where I found myself with this business decision. And there 310 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 4: were lots of things involved, but the bottom line is 311 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 4: I was ready to go about three years before I 312 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 4: was able to go, and so there was a a 313 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 4: lot of things that had to happen in those three years. 314 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 4: It was a wonderful character building time of learning patience. 315 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 4: If the opposite is true for you, where it's time 316 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 4: to go, but you're not ready. That can be a 317 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 4: great time to build courage where you're having to step 318 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 4: forward into something even though you don't feel ready at all. 319 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 4: And so I ended up about a year or so ago, 320 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 4: sold my shares in that company and was able to 321 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 4: end end things there. And it was bittersweet. There were 322 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 4: hard parts that I was glad to leave behind, but 323 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 4: there were really lovely parts and lovely people that I 324 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 4: was sad to leave behind. But again, it doesn't mean 325 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 4: that I chose wrong or that it was wrong to 326 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 4: go into that business. It was just there was a 327 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 4: time for it, and then that time came to an end. 328 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 2: Well. I like how you have that rubric there that 329 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 2: it's like you can be ready, but the change is 330 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 2: not ready to happen. Right. It could also be that 331 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 2: people are ready for you to move on and you 332 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:50,239 Speaker 2: are not quite ready. 333 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: For that as well. 334 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 2: I mean, I wonder how you can discern if it's, 335 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 2: you know, if you are pushing things for it, if 336 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 2: it's that it's not ready, or that something like the 337 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 2: is going on, you know that where maybe you're just 338 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 2: procrastinating on pushing this forward. 339 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 4: Right, listen, procrastination as a whole. Could we write a 340 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 4: whole book about that. We could. We could, But I 341 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 4: think there are some questions that you can ask yourself. 342 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 4: I mean, when I was considering not only that the 343 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 4: business space, but other spaces in my life, if is 344 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 4: it time for me to make a change? And how 345 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 4: can I know for sure? And a few questions I 346 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 4: asked myself were one, are there corners, sections, people, or 347 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 4: parts of this room that I'm avoiding? In other words, 348 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 4: am I hesitant to turn the lights all the way on? 349 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 4: Are there things that I'm like turning a blind eye 350 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 4: to that I don't want to look at? And what 351 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 4: would happen if I did look directly at them? That's 352 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:44,239 Speaker 4: one piece of information. Another one asking myself, is anyone 353 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 4: or anything missing from this room? And if so, who 354 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 4: or what? And recognizing that doesn't mean that if there 355 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 4: are people missing or things missing, you got to get 356 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 4: out of there. No, it's just a bit of information 357 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 4: to recognize who belongs here, who doesn't belong here, who 358 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 4: has already left this space, who's walking into this space? 359 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 4: And these are more pieces of information. A final question 360 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 4: you can ask yourself when you're thinking about the rooms 361 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 4: of your life if it might be time or not 362 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 4: is to what extent can I be myself here? And 363 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 4: this can be true not just for a job or 364 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 4: a faith community you're a part of, or a volunteer position. 365 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 4: It can also be true in a relationship. So, for example, 366 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 4: do you have to change yourself to such a degree 367 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 4: that you don't even recognize yourself in order to inhabit 368 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 4: this room? Or if people who know and love you 369 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 4: show up when you're with this person or in this space, 370 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,479 Speaker 4: would they recognize you? Would they see a version of 371 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 4: you that they know and can support and get behind, 372 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 4: or are they like, are you feeling like you're constantly 373 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 4: having to censor yourself or edit yourself or muffle your 374 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,959 Speaker 4: own ideas or opinions? Those are just the more you 375 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 4: answer and look at some of those questions, And there's 376 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 4: ten of them that I share that are good to 377 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 4: think about. That can give you again, it's not a 378 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 4: yes or no, but it can give you some arrows 379 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 4: to know that you're moving in a direction of either 380 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 4: walking towards the door or maybe staying in this space, 381 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 4: but maybe making some changes along the way. 382 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, what do you mean about that? That you 383 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 2: should yield to the arrows rather than obsessing over answers. 384 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 2: I guess the idea is that maybe you don't have 385 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 2: to make a decision about ending or not ending immediately, 386 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 2: but there are things you can kind of pay attention 387 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 2: to along the way. 388 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 4: Sometimes when we recognize that we feel just sort of 389 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 4: a general sense of stuckness or like a discomfort a 390 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 4: lot of us, what we want to do is I 391 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 4: feel uncomfortable, I don't like it, I need to make 392 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 4: a change. And sometimes that's true, but I would venture 393 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 4: to say a lot of times that's a little premature. 394 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 4: Is that the first sign of discomfort is a time 395 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 4: to begin to pay attention, ask yourself some questions, and 396 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 4: to begin to look for arrows. What we want is 397 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 4: a final answer I'm uncomfortable, solve it. What's the decision 398 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 4: I need to make? But I would love to begin 399 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 4: to encourage us and myself included, to slow our role 400 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 4: a little bit and to begin to enter into what 401 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 4: is more a process of discernment, which is, rather than 402 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 4: looking for I have a question I need an answer yesterday, 403 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 4: is to enter into I have a question, what is 404 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 4: maybe an arrow to one next right thing that I 405 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 4: can do today? And I might not know the final 406 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 4: answer I might have to follow three, five, ten arrows 407 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 4: before I get to my final decision. But to know 408 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 4: that's a healthy process of decision making. And when you 409 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 4: make your decisions that way, if you're afforded the time 410 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 4: to do it, when you make that decision, you do 411 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 4: it more wholeheartedly. You do it from a place of 412 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 4: more confidence, so that five months from now, if things 413 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 4: are really hard again, you're not wondering, like so much, 414 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 4: did I make the wrong decisions? Like No, I took 415 00:19:58,359 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 4: my time and I did what I could, and I 416 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 4: I followed the arrows the best I knew how So 417 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 4: it can give you confidence not just for now, but 418 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 4: for later too. 419 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and to make sure that you're ending the right thing. 420 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 2: I mean, I think when we get upset sometimes and 421 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 2: feel stuck, we might think that everything in life needs 422 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 2: to change, or the most obvious thing needs to change, 423 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 2: as opposed to I don't know something else that you 424 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 2: haven't even thought of. So with that, I wonder if 425 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 2: you could talk a little bit about the other change 426 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier, the ending that was a church you 427 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 2: helped found, so that you and your husband helped start 428 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 2: a church, and then you decided at some point along 429 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 2: the way that you needed to leave that. It sounds 430 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 2: like that was even more fraught for you than the 431 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 2: business decision. 432 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 4: It was, well, we didn't actually help start the church, 433 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 4: but we were a part of the church when they 434 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 4: were moving into a new building, and so we were 435 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 4: kind of really a part of getting that going. And 436 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,120 Speaker 4: it was a real community thing, you know, joining in 437 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 4: it was our place, you know, and I think we 438 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 4: all understand what it's like to be part of a 439 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,439 Speaker 4: community where you walk in and most people know who 440 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 4: you are, your kids have grown up there. If you're sick, 441 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 4: people bring you meals. 442 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 3: You know. 443 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 4: It's a place where we spent our time, where we 444 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 4: gave money and when it was appropriate to do so, 445 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 4: and where we just generally enjoyed being. And you know, 446 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 4: when that's connected to something deeply rooted in you, like 447 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 4: your faith, then that's even another layer of connection in 448 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 4: a space. And so this was a space that we 449 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 4: felt really close to and was a really meaningful place 450 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 4: for us. But as these things go, this was not 451 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 4: an overnight decision. You know, this was a place that 452 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 4: we loved, but also there were questions that we had 453 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 4: there and looking back, you know, it was maybe a 454 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 4: two or three year process really of asking ourselves questions 455 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 4: like are the stakes too high for us to stay? 456 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 4: And sort of once the stakes of for us staying 457 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 4: felt like they outweighed the risk of leaving, that's when 458 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 4: we decided to kindly finally make that change. But again, 459 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,360 Speaker 4: that was one that was following a lot of arrows 460 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 4: on the way out because the stakes were so high, 461 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 4: because we were so rooted in this community. And that 462 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 4: is not a lighthearted decision that we made. And it's one, honestly, 463 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 4: four years later, that we're still wrestling with, not whether 464 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 4: or not we made the right choice. I believe that 465 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 4: we did for us at the time, but just wrestling 466 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 4: to find and look for what does it look like 467 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 4: to find community? Now? What does it look like to 468 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,160 Speaker 4: belong to a new faith community? And we're doing that slowly, 469 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 4: but man, it's that process is a lot slower than 470 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 4: I would prefer, honestly. 471 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'm curious. 472 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 2: I mean, it sounds like we have to understand that 473 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,719 Speaker 2: with endings, with decisions, there's going to be some regret 474 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 2: either way. 475 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 1: I mean, so if you're hoping for a regret free decision, 476 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: you should probably rethink that. 477 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 4: Yes, that's an excellent point. 478 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 2: So you're going to write either way, it's always going 479 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 2: to be hard. Although one thing I found fascinating and 480 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 2: when you're in the process of this discernment, figuring out, 481 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 2: you know, following the errors do I say, do I. 482 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: Go, you began writing haiku. 483 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 2: So let's talk about the important of sort of regular 484 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 2: daily rituals as you are trying to make decisions about 485 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 2: your life. 486 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 4: Rituals can be so kind. I grew up in a 487 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 4: self inflicted kind of rigorous way of life, like kind 488 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 4: of gave myself rules and if I didn't follow them, 489 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 4: I felt terrible about it. But that's not really what 490 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 4: I mean by ritual here. Really, it's just any type 491 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 4: of rhythm that you can engage that helps you be 492 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 4: more fully yourself. And sometimes, you know, some of the things, 493 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 4: especially in endings, when things end, some of the things 494 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,159 Speaker 4: that we reach for that used to be familiar and 495 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 4: felt right. When something ends, some of our rituals and 496 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 4: rhythms changed too, and the things that maybe used to 497 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 4: feel right and that we used to enjoy, maybe they 498 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 4: don't feel so right anymore, maybe they don't feel like us. 499 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 4: And I just want to say that out loud, because 500 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 4: I think that's normal and good and when that happens, 501 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 4: if that happens, maybe it could be helpful to experiment 502 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 4: playfully with do rituals and rhythms and so one that 503 00:23:57,960 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 4: I did. You know, for me, I found it to 504 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 4: be hard. You know, prayer is a big part of 505 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 4: my life, but I found the way I used to 506 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 4: pray to be really different than the way that I 507 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 4: was wanting to engage that practice, and so instead I 508 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 4: started to write haiku. Now let me just be clear, Laura. 509 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 4: It was not like the traditional Japanese good God, it's 510 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 4: not good, but it was like what you learn in 511 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 4: like middle school or so seven syllable five And I 512 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 4: did it, and you know, I would put an and 513 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,360 Speaker 4: or something in there to kind of make it work, 514 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 4: which is not what you're supposed to do. But you 515 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,199 Speaker 4: know what, it was not for publishing. It was just 516 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 4: for me. It was just to kind of continue to 517 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 4: engage my own practice of expressing myself when long form 518 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 4: journaling was not accessible to me anymore at that time. 519 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 4: Just my brain wasn't working that way. But five seven 520 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 4: five I could do that, and I did. And let 521 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 4: me tell you, I mean I probably wrote one hundred 522 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,199 Speaker 4: of them during that season of life, just you know, 523 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,199 Speaker 4: going through and some of them, you know, when you 524 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 4: write a hundred, a few of them are good, most 525 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 4: of them are terrible. But I found it to be 526 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 4: a really just a way to may not take myself 527 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,479 Speaker 4: so seriously during that time that was difficult. And now 528 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 4: I have I have a one hundred high coud ap. 529 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 2: Prove it, yeah, which you can do what you wish with. 530 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 2: At this point, well, I wanted to revisit one point 531 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 2: that you made it earlier, just that the ending does 532 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 2: not define the story that you're quote from the book. 533 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 2: So maybe you could just elaborate a little bit more 534 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 2: on that that just because something ended doesn't mean it 535 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 2: was the wrong thing, or that it was bad or. 536 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 1: Anything like that. It just ended. 537 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 4: I think sometimes this is most clear in something like 538 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 4: job loss or maybe even a breakup, where you're like, 539 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 4: that was a terrible ending, like that, just it just 540 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 4: did not go the way I thought it would go. 541 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 4: It did not end the way I hoped it would end. 542 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 4: A lot of times we imagine the final episode of 543 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 4: our favorite sitcom and we think that's how my ending's 544 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,719 Speaker 4: gonna go. It's gonna be a movie ending, and it 545 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 4: never almost never is. If you get it, cheers to you, 546 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 4: but most of us don't. I think the temptation, though, 547 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 4: is to paint the entire experience with the same hues 548 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 4: that happened at the end. And the reality is we 549 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 4: are whole people who live whole lives, and we can 550 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 4: appreciate the gifts of the experience even if it ended terribly. 551 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 4: We just can, and I think sometimes we have to, 552 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 4: and that's looking at the experience as a whole. We 553 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 4: may not be able to do that right away, and 554 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 4: I think that's important to notice, is that if you 555 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 4: have a terrible breakup, it just might have to be 556 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 4: terrible for a while, and that person has to be 557 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 4: a villain. But over time, I think we might understand 558 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 4: that none of us are all hero or all villain 559 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,400 Speaker 4: and to help us become more wholeheartedly who we are. 560 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 4: I think it's good to reflect on our experiences for 561 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 4: what they were, both the beautiful and the difficult. But 562 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 4: the ending doesn't get to hijack the narrative. The ending 563 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 4: is a plot point, it's not the whole story. 564 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, now, that's good to now, I mean, especially with 565 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 2: things like relationship and people who have kids together, for instance. 566 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,199 Speaker 2: I mean, if the relationship hadn't happened, you wouldn't have 567 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 2: these kids. But the relationship ended, it happened. You know, 568 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 2: you have to accept that good things can happen despite 569 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 2: maybe something not going well at the end. Well, speaking 570 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 2: of endings, we're coming up on the end of ours. 571 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 2: We always end our interviews with a love of the week, 572 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 2: so this is something that we are enjoying right now. 573 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 2: And since I'll go first, so you can think of 574 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 2: something to be you know, pop culture, food, book, whatever. 575 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: And I'm going to go with given that you're talking 576 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: about haiku poetry rules. 577 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 2: I mean, longtime listeners know I'm writing a sonnet a week, 578 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 2: you know, two lines a day, so fourteen lines in 579 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 2: the course of a week, and been doing this for 580 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 2: a while. 581 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: But what the reason I like it is the rules. 582 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,239 Speaker 2: Make you think about it. But then it makes if 583 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 2: you could stick with the rules, it's like at least 584 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 2: kind of decent, right because it's done the rules, Whereas 585 00:27:58,200 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 2: if it's total free form, you know, there's a lot 586 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 2: more variability. I mean, it could be great, could also 587 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 2: be awful. So I like poetry rules, so I'm a 588 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 2: big fan of the haikup rules, even if we're not 589 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,959 Speaker 2: doing the proper like Japanese walk off to think of 590 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 2: the thing that you know you're not saying that's off 591 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 2: there in the distance. 592 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: How about you? What are you loving this week? 593 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 4: Well? You ask this on the day after I just 594 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 4: finished speaking of the end of a series. I just 595 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 4: finished watching Ugly Betty. Okay, didn't see that coming, did you? 596 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 2: Now? 597 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 4: I did not, but I missed it when it came 598 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 4: out originally, And so I just watched the series and 599 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 4: it's just such a delightful show. America Ferreira stars in it, 600 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 4: and she's wonderful. 601 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: She's great. 602 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, she's so great. And so I was like, I 603 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 4: should watch that series, and I did, and I just 604 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 4: finished it and I'm nostalgic about it because it's over. 605 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: There are no more, but there are no episodes coming out. 606 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: It really is truly over. 607 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 4: Yeah. 608 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 2: Well, now you just need to find the next thing, right, 609 00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 2: That's what I need, the next right thing, exactly right? 610 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 2: All right? Well, Emily, thank you so much for joining us. 611 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 2: And why don't you tell our listeners where they can 612 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 2: find you? 613 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,719 Speaker 4: Oh, you can find almost everything at Emilypfreeman dot com. 614 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 4: It's my name. I also have the next writing podcast 615 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 4: we drop every Tuesday, and then on subsec I'm the 616 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 4: sole Minimalist. 617 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, we'll be sure to check that out. Thanks 618 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: so much for joining us, Emily. 619 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 4: Thank you. 620 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 1: All right, Well we are back. 621 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 2: I was interviewing Emily P. Freeman about her book How 622 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 2: to Walk Into a Room. So, Sarah, this question, I 623 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 2: guess start for you, and I guess for me too. 624 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 2: This listener writes, can you share what it was like 625 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 2: coming back from an injury? So Sarah had a leg 626 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 2: injury this fall that precluded her running for a couple months, 627 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 2: but then she has now been back and as readers 628 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 2: and listeners know, she recently got a lifetime pr in 629 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 2: the half marathon, which is pretty awesome to do that 630 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 2: in your forties. 631 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: Many of us do not. 632 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 2: Get faster over time, so Sarah has defied time in 633 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 2: all sorts of ways. So we want to hear a 634 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 2: little bit about how she came back from that. And 635 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 2: he thought she had about that, and then the listener 636 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 2: asked how my back was doing. So I'll give a 637 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 2: one minute thing about that later, but let's hear about you, Sarah. 638 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was, I mean It was a rough couple 639 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 3: months there for listeners. I talked about it, but it 640 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 3: was a very unfortunate incident with me not putting my 641 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 3: car into park properly and then basically getting my leg 642 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 3: kind of like a crush injury underneath the door of 643 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 3: the car. Not a lot of fun, extensive bruising. I 644 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 3: thought I had torn my meniscus, but I didn't, so 645 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 3: there was There was actually no like. 646 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: Bad structural damage. 647 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 3: It was just eight ton of like crazy amounts of 648 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 3: hematoma soft tissue damage like in my leg, and I 649 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 3: couldn't run for a while. It took me a really 650 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 3: long time to agree to that. I think trying to 651 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 3: make it work and then I would like fall and 652 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 3: make things worse, and was finally like, Okay, this isn't happening. 653 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 3: And I did just do nothing for a couple of weeks, 654 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 3: and then I realized that I think I could bike, 655 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 3: so we got a peloton. We rented a peloton, which 656 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:06,959 Speaker 3: is something you can do, you don't have to purchase 657 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 3: one outright, and that actually was very helpful just to 658 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 3: give me an outlet. So I continued to do some 659 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 3: strength training that I felt like I was able to 660 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 3: do and I did biking, and I really didn't run 661 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 3: for a while. And you know, it's so funny because 662 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 3: it felt like such a long time while it was happening, 663 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 3: especially because I was so used to running this very steady, 664 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 3: high mileage. It just felt like my life just felt different, 665 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 3: and I was very unhappy about it. Once I found 666 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 3: the biking, that was like, Okay, this actually works. This 667 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 3: is like a really nice substitute. And now looking back, 668 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 3: I'm like, that was such a blip, like it was nothing, 669 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 3: because I mean it wasn't nothing. It was about two months. 670 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 3: But by the end of December I was running really well. 671 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 3: We had taken a trip to a Millia Island and 672 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 3: I was like, oh, I'm back, Like I just felt 673 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 3: really good, and January was great training and I can 674 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 3: honestly say one thing that made me so sad was 675 00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 3: I just felt like I was making this great progress 676 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 3: around doctor over right when I got hurt. But I 677 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 3: now feel like I'm actually even like in better speed 678 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 3: wise shape than I was back then, So we're resilient. 679 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 3: We can come back. And I guess the thing I 680 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 3: would say is like, don't try to rush it, and 681 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 3: definitely seek out the types of support that feel right, 682 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 3: whether that's physical therapy, whether that's actual therapy, whether that's 683 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 3: talking to friends, and just don't try to rush it, 684 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 3: because like this idea that you're just going to like 685 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 3: lose all your fitness in five minutes is just not true. 686 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: We can come back. 687 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes we think our endings are not in fact endings, 688 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 2: that it was not the end of her running journey. 689 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 2: That I keep coming back to this idea that time 690 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 2: is the secret ingredient in all sorts of things. As 691 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 2: this is airing, I'm about two months out from when 692 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 2: I had my back incident slash leg incident that basically 693 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 2: left me bedbound and my pretty standard run of the 694 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 2: mill aging person bulging discs pressing down on nerves and 695 00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 2: rendering life undoable for a while. And you know, I 696 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 2: took my steroids and painkillers and stayed immobile pretty much 697 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 2: until I could start moving. But it's fascinating to watch 698 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 2: you just you do, in fact, often keep getting better 699 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 2: just through time, right if you're not doing things to 700 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 2: make it worse, and you're trying to slowly develop new 701 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 2: abilities that you had before. And so I've been kind 702 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 2: of fascinated to watch that. Although it has been very 703 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 2: frustrating in its own way. I'm still not running. I mean, 704 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 2: maybe when this airs I will be. This is late 705 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 2: February when we're recording it. We're in a hotel room 706 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 2: together in Naples. Sarah ran this morning. I did not 707 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 2: run with her, but I hope to be back to 708 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 2: it eventually. But yeah, you just have to sort of 709 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 2: be patient and understand that life can look a little 710 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 2: different for a while, and that's not necessarily good or bad. 711 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 2: I mean, I ran every day for three years for 712 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 2: a while, and now I haven't run in months, and 713 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 2: it's just that that's what life is like right now. 714 00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean life will be different in the future. 715 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: Maybe it will be. 716 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 2: Maybe I'll be back to running all the time, or 717 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 2: maybe I won't be. I don't know, but just sort 718 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 2: of take it as it comes, and life keeps moving forward. 719 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 2: And I if I think back, like in sort of 720 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,320 Speaker 2: two week chunks, any given day, I don't necessarily feel 721 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 2: all that much different than the day before. But if 722 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 2: I look back what could I do two weeks ago, 723 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 2: and what could I do two weeks before? Then, then 724 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 2: I see some real progress. And so that's a little 725 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 2: bit more hardening. 726 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,359 Speaker 3: Yes, no, it's exciting. The uncertainty piece is hard. It's 727 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 3: the hardest part. If you knew exactly what the path 728 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 3: was going to look like, and if I could have 729 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 3: told myself, oh, in January, it'll be running great, like 730 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 3: the whole thing would have been less, less painful. But 731 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 3: I guess you're right. Just appreciate the small progress and 732 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 3: maybe not try not to be tied to any specific outcome. 733 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. 734 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 2: Well, people don't like uncertainly. It's why we have trouble 735 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 2: with ending. So yeah, but lots of things to think 736 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 2: about in this episode. We will be back next week with. 737 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: More and making work and life fit together. 738 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the 739 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,240 Speaker 3: shoe box dot com or at the Underscore shoe Box 740 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 3: on Instagram, and you. 741 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 2: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This 742 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 2: has been the best of both Worlds podcasts. Please join 743 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 2: us next time for more on making work and life 744 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 2: work together.