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Speaker 1: Pushkin. The following podcast contains explicit language. Not long ago,

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Speaker 1: I went to see the music producer Rick Rubin. He

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Speaker 1: lives in Malibu. We'd never met in person before, but

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Speaker 1: we've been talking for a couple of months about doing

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Speaker 1: a project together which would be a place for us

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Speaker 1: and others to tell stories about music, all kinds, where

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Speaker 1: songs come from, how they're made, why they work. Rick

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Speaker 1: lives in a strange minimalist house overlooking the ocean, and

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Speaker 1: he has a room which is all white, white walls,

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Speaker 1: white floor, with nothing in it except a white couch

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Speaker 1: and this elaborate sound system. We'd only been talking half

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Speaker 1: an hour and he said, I won't to play you

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Speaker 1: a song. It was something he produced. It wasn't finished yet,

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Speaker 1: but he'd played me the most recent version. He didn't

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Speaker 1: say anything else. I listened and it floored me. Him.

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Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell, this is Broken Record, the new podcast from

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Speaker 1: me and my friend's legendary producer, Rick Rubin, a long

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Speaker 1: time New York Times editor of Bruce Heaven. A full

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Speaker 1: season is coming soon, but before we start officially, we

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Speaker 1: thought we'd do a little teaser about a song from

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Speaker 1: an old friend of Rix I'm guessing you've heard of him, eminem. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I remember the first run I wrote. I don't remember

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Speaker 1: everything I wrote, but I was at my great an

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Speaker 1: in this house and it was so much of LLL.

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Speaker 1: It was so much of a bad bite. But I said,

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Speaker 1: I'm sneaking up behind you, and before you can bleak,

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Speaker 1: I'll have one hundred million rounds and like a ship,

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Speaker 1: you will sink, like you know, when I retire, I'll

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Speaker 1: be washed up like an old battleship. Like this is

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Speaker 1: the thing when when you start out in your career,

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Speaker 1: you have a blank canvas so you can paint anywhere

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Speaker 1: that you want because the shit ain't been painted on yet.

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Speaker 1: And then your second album comes out, you paint a

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Speaker 1: little more, and you paint a little more. By the

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Speaker 1: time you get to your seventh and eighth album, you've

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Speaker 1: already painted all over that there's nowhere else to paint,

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Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. So it's like, where do

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Speaker 1: you go? And people are always expecting something different from you.

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Speaker 1: I want him to talk about this. I want him

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Speaker 1: to talk about that. I want him to just spit.

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Speaker 1: I don't like when he just spits. He does too

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Speaker 1: much rapidy rapidi shit. I don't like when he self loads.

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Speaker 1: He does that shit too much. I don't like when he,

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Speaker 1: you know, puts all them syllables together but they don't

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Speaker 1: mean anything. You start running out of there's less places

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Speaker 1: to go that you haven't already been. So that's kind

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Speaker 1: of how I feel like. All the time Rick worked

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Speaker 1: with eminem on his last album. They know each other well.

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Speaker 1: They would sit together. Rick would play songs for inspiration.

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Speaker 1: My experience with him is everything is written during the process.

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Speaker 1: I may play him a bunch of different ideas to

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Speaker 1: see if there's one that sheds light on a direction

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Speaker 1: to start from. Do you remember any of the music

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Speaker 1: you played, the songs you guys were listening to when

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Speaker 1: you were trying to get inspiration for this album. I

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Speaker 1: remember I played him a Frank zapp a song that

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Speaker 1: I thought had some really which one so really early

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Speaker 1: when I can't remember, but it was a protest song,

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Speaker 1: and I thought the energy of this might be right

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Speaker 1: for him, and out of that came something new. The

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Speaker 1: song is called Walk on Water. It was recorded at Chenggula,

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Speaker 1: which is just up the road from Reuben's house. Bob

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Speaker 1: Dylan used to record there In fact, one of Dylan's

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Speaker 1: old tour buses has been converted into a studio. It's

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Speaker 1: high up in a hill. Everything's white, of course, and

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Speaker 1: wide open. The song is about that line written from

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Speaker 1: long ago, when I retire, I'll be worshiped like an

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Speaker 1: old battleship, and how it didn't come true. The song's

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Speaker 1: chorus is this beautiful hook written by Skylar Gray. I

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Speaker 1: walk on water, but I ain't no Jesus. I walk

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Speaker 1: on water, but only when it freezes. I didn't even

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Speaker 1: play it for him, like, listen to this, this is great.

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Speaker 1: It was more like I happened to be listening to

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Speaker 1: it and he came into the control room and he said, oh,

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Speaker 1: what's that And I said, oh, it's a hook Skylar wrote.

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Speaker 1: And he's just sat there and he's listening to it,

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Speaker 1: and he's like, hmmm. They've just been talking about the

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Speaker 1: rise of mumble rap, and there was something about that line,

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Speaker 1: I walk on water, but only when it freezes, that

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Speaker 1: touched a nerve. So for him it's it's a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a culture shock because there's a new wave

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Speaker 1: of hip hop that's not really what he's about. So

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Speaker 1: he was just talking to me about how that felt.

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Speaker 1: What did he say? I could see he was frustrated

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Speaker 1: by it. He's fanatical to a point that I don't

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Speaker 1: think I've ever seen before in anyone just to his

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Speaker 1: attention to detail. He has a perfect memory of everything

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Speaker 1: about the music, and he gets inside of it and

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Speaker 1: writes to whatever is good or bad about it. He

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Speaker 1: wants the rhythm of the words to bounce off of

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Speaker 1: the beat in a very particular way. After Rick and

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Speaker 1: I talked, Rick called up Eminem to talk about where

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Speaker 1: the song came from. I've been a student of hip

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Speaker 1: hop and I've always studied rap, and one of the

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Speaker 1: things I learned from Tupac was whenever he was like

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Speaker 1: I don't know how, he just always knew the right

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Speaker 1: words to say on the right chords. And it was

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Speaker 1: almost like if he wanted to make this statement. I

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Speaker 1: remember when he's my broken down TV some cartoons in

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Speaker 1: my living room. Hey on Unconditional Love, a song he had,

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, he could have said

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Speaker 1: that on the bar before it and it wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: men as much. But he said it right here where

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Speaker 1: the chord got sad and the you know, like I

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Speaker 1: just I studied that so much and was like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, he was so genius at like doing that.

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Speaker 1: It was like he never said the wrong thing on

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Speaker 1: the wrong chord. Listen to Dear Mama and my Mama

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Speaker 1: had big seventeen years old, keeped out on the streets,

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Speaker 1: go back at the time. I never thought i'd see

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Speaker 1: your face hate a woman to live, that I could

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Speaker 1: take my mama's place. Strimming through school, I'm starting to

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Speaker 1: go home. I was the fool with every single thing,

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Speaker 1: every single thought, every single word, every bar was like

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Speaker 1: so in place where it should be, just because of

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Speaker 1: he was so smart about picking his beats and just

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Speaker 1: you know, like Tupac always said, feel me, and you

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Speaker 1: have to feel him and not just hearing. Here you

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Speaker 1: have an artist whose identity is in his craft, and

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Speaker 1: now suddenly, in some unconscious way, maybe he feels like

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Speaker 1: the ground is slipping ever so slightly out from under

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Speaker 1: his feet. That anxiety is the price of obsession. It's

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Speaker 1: a very mortal song. It's I mean, like you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's mortality. It's you know, not being Superman. And

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Speaker 1: what if I can't come up with the best shit

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Speaker 1: I've ever wrote? Every single time I think these feelings

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Speaker 1: cross the mind of everyone who's ever cared deeply about something.

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Speaker 1: Walk on water. But I know, Jesus at all we freezes?

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Speaker 1: Why our expectations so high? Is it the bar? I

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Speaker 1: set my arms, I stretched, but I can't reach a

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Speaker 1: far cry from it, or it's in my grass butters

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Speaker 1: As soon as I grab squeeze, I lose my grip,

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Speaker 1: like the flying trap peas into the dark eyed plumbing.

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Speaker 1: Now the sky's black knee. I know the mark's high.

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Speaker 1: Butter flies rip apart my stomach, knowing that no matter

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Speaker 1: what bars I come with, you're gonna heart griping. That's

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Speaker 1: a hard fighting in the swallow. So I scraped these.

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Speaker 1: This pressure increases like khakis. I feel the ice cracking

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Speaker 1: because I ain't you Jesus, but all freezes. It's the

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Speaker 1: curse of the standard that the first of the matter's

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Speaker 1: disc set always in search of the burst that I

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Speaker 1: haven't spent yet. Will this step just be another misstep

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Speaker 1: to turnish? Whatever the legacy love a respect I've garnered.

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Speaker 1: The rhyme has to be perfect, the delivery flawless, And

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Speaker 1: it always feels like I'm hitting the market till i

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Speaker 1: I'm sit in the car listening pick it apart, like

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Speaker 1: this shit is garbage. God's giving me all this. Still

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Speaker 1: I feel no different, regardless kids look to me as

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Speaker 1: a god. This is retarded if only they knew. It's

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Speaker 1: a facade and it's exhaustive. And I try not to

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Speaker 1: listen to nonsense. But if your bitches are trying to

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Speaker 1: strip me in my confidence, mission accomplished. I'm not God's

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Speaker 1: sitting nas Roy Kimpok, big James Todd Smith. And I'm

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Speaker 1: not printing I ain't Jesus, but only when peezes, because

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Speaker 1: I'm only h just like it taking mama. Stay So

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Speaker 1: if you know, I don't think you should believe me

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Speaker 1: the way the children. It's true. I'm a rubics, a

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Speaker 1: beautiful mess at times juvenile. Yes, I goof, and I

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Speaker 1: jest a flawed human, I guess. But I'm doing my

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Speaker 1: best to not pluing your expectations and meet him. But

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Speaker 1: first the speed him verse Now, big Sean, he's going

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Speaker 1: too fast as he's gonna shout a curse out his mom.

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Speaker 1: There was a time I had the whirl by the

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Speaker 1: ball's eating out my palm. Every album song I was

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Speaker 1: spausing the fuck out on and now I'm getting clowned

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Speaker 1: and frowned on. But the only one who's looking down

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Speaker 1: on me that matters. Now it's to sean Am I

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Speaker 1: lucky to be around this long begs the question, though,

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Speaker 1: especially after the method, don't it's yesterday, fates and the

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Speaker 1: dress thing home is burnt to the ground, and all

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Speaker 1: that's left in my house is long. The crowds are gone,

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Speaker 1: and it's to wash out. The blonde sales decline, the

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Speaker 1: curtains drawn, the closing the set. I'm still poking my

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Speaker 1: head from out behind, and everyone who has doubt, remind

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Speaker 1: now take your best rhyme. I'll do it, now, do

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Speaker 1: it a thousand times. Now let them tell you the

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Speaker 1: world no longer cares it gives a fuck about your rhymes.

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Speaker 1: And there's I grow out of sight, out of mind.

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Speaker 1: I might go out of mind, because how do I

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Speaker 1: ever let this might go without a fight when I

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Speaker 1: made a fucking tight rope out of twine. But when

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Speaker 1: I do fall from these heights to while be fine,

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Speaker 1: I won't power to cry or spiral down the wine,

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Speaker 1: but I'll decide if it's my final power this time around,

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Speaker 1: because find Jesus only with freezing it's sum only you,

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Speaker 1: just like you making mamastake. So if you only know,

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Speaker 1: I don't think you should believe in me the way

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Speaker 1: that you do because I'm tired. Fine, you know, walk

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Speaker 1: on water out dry because I'm just the man. But

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Speaker 1: as long as I gotta Mike, I'm God lights on me.

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Speaker 1: You are not a like bitch I wrote Stay. Broken

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Speaker 1: Record is a panoply production brought to you by Rick Rubin,

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Speaker 1: Bruce had Lemon Me Malcolm gladwas coming soon our first

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Speaker 1: full season Broken Record. Liner notes at the Digital Age.

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Speaker 1: When I first got introduced to hip hop, I started

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Speaker 1: with Iced Tea and NWA came out and Audio two

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Speaker 1: and Alliance and Loving coolg Rath and Big Deaddy Kane

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Speaker 1: and Master Ace and the whole Juice Crew, Beastie Boys, God,

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Speaker 1: Third Base. Everything that was good hip hop, you know

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Speaker 1: it just you know, got trapsed, naughty by nature, the

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Speaker 1: whole Flavor Unit, Kim Shabaz, Biggie and Big Hell and

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Speaker 1: Poor Righteous Teachers, y z Rock, Kim Kiss One Woutang,

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Speaker 1: leaders of the New School, jay z nas a z

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Speaker 1: oh Man. I was such a nerdy kid