WEBVTT - #304 Guest Host Gilbert King with Robert DuBoise 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:03.440 I'm Jason Flammett Wrongful Conviction. We're proud to be a 0:00:03.480 --> 0:00:06.080 part of the ever growing landscape of true crime shows 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:08.840 that revealed just how our criminal legal system works and 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:12.639 often where it fails. This week, I've invited a colleague 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:15.600 from another podcast to bring their unique style to our 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:18.200 coverage of yet another wrongful conviction. 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:24.360 Back in the late seventies and early eighties, there was 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:28.080 a string of violent crimes in Florida. Young women were 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:32.120 being raped and murdered seemingly at random. One of the 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:36.640 perpetrators was the infamous Ted Bundy. He was convicted for 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:39.720 one of these murders, and among the mountain of evidence 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:44.400 that was presented against him was a bike mark. A 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:48.440 dentist named doctor Suveran was called to testify against Bundy, 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:52.520 making famous the use of bike mark evidence known as 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:58.240 forensic odontology. Four years after Bundy was sent to death 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:01.520 row a young woman's body he was found with obvious 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:05.920 signs of sexual assault near Tampa. There was also an 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:09.160 injury on her cheek that the medical examiner determined to 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:12.279 be a bite mark. Given that it followed the highly 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:16.399 televised Bundy trial, police honed in on that bitemark to 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:20.960 the exclusion of all other evidence. They began taking bite 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:25.440 impressions or denticians from dozens of men in the neighborhood 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:29.880 and brought them to doctor Suveran. One of those men 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:35.319 was eighteen year old Robert Dubois. Doctor Suveran alleged that 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:39.520 Robert's dentician matched the bite mark on the victim, and 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:44.319 Robert was arrested. No other physical evidence tied him to 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:47.560 the case, but with the use of a jailhouse informant, 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.840 Robert was convicted of capital murder and sentenced to die 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:56.440 by electrocution for a crime he did not commit. This 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:17.000 is wrongful conviction. Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Gilbert King. 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:19.400 I'm I'm the Pulitzer Prise winning author of Devil in 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:22.560 the Grove, about Thurgood Marshall's representation of the young men 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:25.680 known as the Groveland Four who were just exonerated by 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:28.960 the State of Florida last year. I'm also the writer 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:31.840 and host of a new nine part narrative podcast called 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:35.520 Bone Valley by Lava for Good Podcasts, and I'm honored 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:39.880 to be guest hosting this episode of Wrongful Conviction. Today, 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:42.079 we have two very special guests, and I'm going to 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:44.679 ask them both to introduce themselves before we get into 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:48.400 the interview. So let's start out with Robert Dubois. 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:52.760 Well, my name is Robert Dubois. So I was just 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:57.720 exonerated in twenty twenty and right now I'm sitting in 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:02.440 my apartment in Tampa, Florida to you guys, and we also. 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:04.560 Have Susan Friedman. Susan, you want to introduce yourself? 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:07.680 Yeah, thanks Gilbert for having me. My name is Susan Friedman. 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:10.520 I'm a senior staff attorney at the Innocence Project based 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:13.320 in New York City, and I represented Robert through his 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:14.160 wrongful conviction. 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:17.160 Oh, this is amazing. We have so much to talk 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:19.840 about then, because this is really going to be really fascinating. 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:24.040 I studied the case very familiar with Tampa. Robert, the 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:26.800 event that would change your life occurred back in nineteen 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:30.200 eighty three in Tampa. You were just eighteen years old. 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:32.840 Can you talk about who you were and what your 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:34.880 life was before that arrest. 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:39.120 Well, at that time, I was working in town and 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:44.120 country at an auto a postry shop for Noel's Autawa Postry. 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:48.240 So I used to ride my bike. It's like, I 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:51.400 guess about five miles. So I wrote it to town and 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:58.320 country every day for the job. So suddenly my whole 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:01.800 world was upside down because I'm doing my everyday thing, 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:05.880 going back and forth to work, and then next thing 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:09.360 you know, I'm in a cell wondering why now. 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:11.080 I mean, this has just came out of the blue 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:12.560 for you. I mean, do you didn't have any prior 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:14.240 runnings with the law or do you have you had 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:16.200 any understanding of what was happening. 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:18.080 I did have a prior running with the law when 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:22.160 I was a teenager, so it was about an empty 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:25.640 house or car parts, just some dumb stuff. And I 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:30.200 had moved past that and had two years probation community 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:34.320 work hours for the Police Athletic League, which I completed, 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:39.159 and next thing you know, I'm in jail being accused 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:39.719 of murder. 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:42.520 And let's go back to that in a minute. But Susan, 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:45.480 I just want to ask you your experience you're coming in. 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:49.960 What does you like really understand about Tampa, Florida and 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:51.680 this time the early eighties. You know a lot of 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:54.520 people think of like Miami Vice, this is that era, 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:58.480 but this is not like South Florida. This is Central Florida, Tampa. 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:00.479 It's a little sleepier, right, Yeah. 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:02.719 I mean, the one thing to know is that around 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:05.239 the time when this crime occurred that Robert was wrongfully 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:08.560 convicted of, there actually were a string of women who 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:12.720 were sexually assaulted and murdered. There wasn't a clear m 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:15.799 but there were a number of women that turned up dead, 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:19.279 one of them obviously being the victim and Roberts case. 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:22.000 The other thing that turns out to be really important 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:25.599 is that Florida is the home of the Ted Bundy case. 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:29.200 And in the nineteen seventies, Ted Bundy eventually comes to 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:32.000 confess to around thirty cases, and one of the really 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.640 important pieces of evidence is bitemark testimony, and that's what 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:38.760 actually puts doctor Richard suver On on the map. And 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:43.640 doctor sub On testified in the Ted Bundy trials and 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:46.560 he also lived in Florida. So this was just a 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:49.919 very high profile time for bitemark evidence generally in the 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:51.040 criminal legal system. 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:54.320 And can you just talk briefly about how that science 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:56.680 has come to be viewed today as opposed to back 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:57.960 in the nineteen eighties. 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:02.440 Yeah, So, you know, we today know that fitemark evidence 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:06.720 has been wholly discredited. Not only has the National Academy 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:09.240 of Sciences, who did a review of this type of 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:13.160 evidence back in two thousand and nine, even the ABFO, 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:17.640 the group that regulates forensic odeontologists, have made significant revisions 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:20.800 to the conclusions that they can make in twenty sixteen, 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:24.920 and so in twenty sixteen, after a number of research 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:27.720 studies that they concluded that they no longer can do 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:30.000 what's known as source attribution. I mean that's say a 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:33.520 certain individual was the bier in a case. And so 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:37.279 that came after years of research in this to finally 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:39.720 debunk this type of evidence that for so long has 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.080 been held up as an important piece of evidence, but 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:45.120 that we know today has led to many, many wrongful convictions. 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:47.200 We know of at least thirty four wrongful convictions in 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:49.280 the United States, Robert being one of them. 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:53.480 Susan, can we just talk about the case that brought 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:56.080 Robert into trouble? Can you just talk about the facts 0:06:56.120 --> 0:06:56.680 of the crime. 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:00.599 Yeah. On August nineteenth, nineteen eighty three, in the early 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:03.839 morning hours, a dentist was showing up at work. He 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:06.760 was opening up his shop and in the back he 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:10.920 found the victim in this case, she had been she 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:14.960 was severely beaten, and she was there was certainly evidence 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:18.680 that she had been either actually sexually assaulted or there 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:21.680 was an attempted sexual assault. She was completely nude except 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:24.360 for a tube top that was pushed up above her 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:29.400 chest that exposed her breasts. So police immediately started investigating 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:34.520 and they canvass the neighborhood. Unfortunately, there were no eyewitnesses, 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:37.000 and so what we know about the victim is that 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:40.840 she worked at a local restaurant, a local fast food chain, 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:43.720 and she had left somewhere around nine to nine fifteen 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:46.480 in the evening after closing up. We know that someone 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:49.200 saw her about nine thirty PM a couple blocks away 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:52.600 from her home. But then she's found eight blocks south 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:56.000 of that, and so police started canvassing. They couldn't find 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:59.040 anyone who had any information, and so very quickly this 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:02.360 case focused in on the physical evidence, and that evidence 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:05.680 came from the medical examiner's office. During the autopsy, the 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:09.520 medical examiner concluded three things. First, that the victim was 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:12.880 killed as a result of blunt force trauma. As I said, 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:15.520 she had been severely beaten, and at the crime scene 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:17.720 they found a total of four to two by four 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:21.000 wooden boards by her, and they all had and a 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:22.720 few of them had blood and hair on them, which 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:26.120 suggested that they were the murder weapon. The emmy also 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:30.000 concluded that she likely was sexually assaulted. And then the 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:33.120 third when he washed her face, he saw that there 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:35.560 was a pattern injury on her left cheek, which he 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:38.160 concluded even though he is not an odontologist or a 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:41.439 bitemark expert, he actually concluded must have been a bitemark. 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:45.199 How did police begin to narrow this down to certain suspects? 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:49.720 So, because law enforcement didn't have any eyewitnesses, they really 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:52.480 focused in on the bite mark, and in this case, 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:55.760 the medical examiner identified what he believed to be a 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:59.200 bitemark on the victim's left cheek. He excized it and 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:01.600 put it in formal to hide, which caused it to shrink. 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:04.560 But then the photographs of the bitemark were shared with 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:07.559 doctor Suban, and doctor Subarron concluded that this was a 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:09.840 human bitemark and that he would be able to make 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:14.200 a comparison. So doctor Subron then advised law enforcement to 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:18.520 start collecting denticians from individuals who they believed were suspects, 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:21.880 and to do that using bees wax and if folks 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:24.880 are thinking about why beeswax. It doesn't really make sense. 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:28.680 You're right, because beeswax is not a good method for 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:32.360 capturing someone's dentition, but that's what they were using. And 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:36.800 so Detective Saladino started going around and collecting dozens and 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:40.319 dozens of denticians from basically any individual that they came 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:44.600 into contact with, and they turned their attention to Robert 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:48.920 because they interviewed a woman who had worked at at 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:51.360 a store about a block away from where the victim 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:55.360 was discovered. And what's interesting about this individual is that 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:57.840 she worked at the store back in February, which is 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:01.120 six months before this crime. But she alleged that she 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:04.000 knew a couple of boys who, as she said quote, 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:07.000 caused trouble. That's what led police to focus in on 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:09.600 Robert and to ask him for his beeswax tentition. 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:12.520 So, Robert, can you just talk a little bit about 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:15.440 your first contact with police and what you were thinking 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:18.280 when you got approached. What was that like that moment? 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:22.520 Well, I wasn't very fond of cops in general. I 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:26.640 was a teenager. But when I was approached, he's like, 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:31.800 would you mind doing a beeswax impression? And I'm like, 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:34.960 for what he says, Well, we're just doing you know, 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:37.560 everybody in the neighborhood or whatever, even though I'm not 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:41.160 even from that neighborhood. So I went with him downtown 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:45.480 with the only two in the police detective division, and 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:49.079 he asked me to bite into a soft piece of beeswax, 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:54.080 so I did, and he drove me back home and 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:56.920 he made a crazy statement on the way home. He says, 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:00.400 there was two girls walking down the street. I thought 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:03.880 it pretty weird. He says, which do you prefer? Blonde 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:08.160 or brunette? I said, what does it matter? You know? 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:10.480 So he didn't say anymore, and he dropped me off 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:15.439 at home. So then I didn't hear anymore until October 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:19.439 twenty first, nineteen eighty three, when they came to my 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:23.200 door at two thirty in the morning and asked me 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:27.800 to go downtown and said that my mom needed to 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:31.800 see me. So, taking the consideration, my father's in a wheelchair, 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:35.520 he's completely paralyzed, so I'm thinking, if my mom needs 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:39.040 to see me, something's really going on here. So I 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:42.719 go downtown. Of course my mom isn't there, and then 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:46.520 they tell me Detective Saladino will come shortly and explain 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:51.400 what's going on. So in the interim, I'm sitting there 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:54.679 and the detective looks at me and he's talking about fishing, 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:58.640 the weather, all this normal stuff, and then he says, 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:01.920 why'd you do it? I said, why did I do? 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:02.040 What? 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:07.080 He said, why did you kill her? I said kill who? 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:11.520 I said, what? Are you crazy? So I'm thinking it's 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:12.600 some kind of sick joke. 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:17.199 So aside from this, there's no other physical evidence that 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:20.319 is causing police to focus in on Robert. It's just 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:21.679 they're doing this thing with the. 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:25.800 Teeth, right, Yeah, that's right. Police approach Robert and he's 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:28.960 completely cooperative because he has nothing to hide. He knows 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:32.320 he didn't commit this crime. In fact, the other forensic 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:34.359 evidence excludes Robert. 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:37.400 And would you consider that an example of tunnel vision. 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:41.520 You have all this other evidence that's possibly exculpatory, is excalpatory, 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:44.280 and yet here they are focusing on this something that 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:47.600 we now consider junk science. What happened there? 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:52.280 That's exactly right. This is classic tunnel vision and cognitive 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:55.559 bias setting in. This was a case with no eyewitnesses, 0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:58.840 and when police got their tip and they believe that 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:01.440 Robert was the source of the bite mark. All the 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:04.960 other evidence that was exculpatory, they found reasons to ignore, 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:07.600 and they focused in on Robber and were able to 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:10.240 explain away any facts that didn't line up with their 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:11.160 theory of the case. 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:14.000 Robert, this must have been, you know, the worst day 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:15.800 of your life to get accused of something like this 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.360 and arrested. Can you just walk through the arrest and 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:19.439 what that was like for you? 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:24.160 Yeah, I mean I was very angry and baffled. I 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:27.079 mean I was very angry, angry with the police when 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:29.840 they tried to handcuff me because I knew I had 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:34.000 done nothing wrong, you know. And then because I'm angry 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:36.719 when they took me to the jail, they had the 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:40.640 nurse shoot me up with how doll, so that put 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:43.240 me out, and when I woke up, I was strapped 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:48.839 down to a steal bunk with leather straps. So then 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:53.960 the following morning they take me for all these dental 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:57.040 impressions and I'm still doped up off the how doll 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:00.760 or whatever it was, and I was just baffled. I 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:03.319 was just trying to get it over with because I 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:06.120 knew I had done nothing wrong. So I was living 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:08.839 kind of like in a bad dream, I couldn't wake 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:09.320 up for him. 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:22.840 This episode is sponsored by the AIG pro Bono Program. 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:26.480 AIG is a leading global insurance company, and the AIG 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:30.000 pro Bono Program provides free legal services, as well as 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:34.240 other support to many nonprofit organizations as well as individuals 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:37.880 who are most in need, and they recently announced that 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:41.480 working to reform the criminal justice system will become a 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:43.880 key pillar of the program's mission. 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.080 And any of the time, did you ever occur to 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:55.880 you like I need a lawyer at this point. 0:14:56.440 --> 0:15:00.200 No, because I knew I had done nothing wrong, So 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:02.560 it never even really crossed my mind. I didn't know 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:04.840 enough about the legal system to even know I had 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:05.320 that right. 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:07.760 And I think one of the things that's really important 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:09.600 about Robert just said is that a lot of times 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:13.440 people's innocence puts them at risk, especially in interrogations and 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:16.800 in these kinds of situations where they're interacting with law enforcement. 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:18.880 They know that they're innocent, and they believe that the 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:22.760 evidence will prove that. And so Robert went ahead and 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:25.760 completely cooperated with law enforcement knowing that he didn't commit 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:28.320 this crime, he didn't bite the victim, he was never 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:30.400 there and so he had no reason to hide on anything, 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:32.320 and so he didn't think he needed a lawyer. 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:36.000 Yeah, I'm always amazed by the exgonneries that you talk to. 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:38.440 They have so much faith in the justice system. They 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:40.600 will just clear this up together. We'll talk this over 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:43.160 because I didn't do it, and they are at the 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:46.000 most risk of anybody because they're just talking the police 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:48.720 right off the bat. So, Susan, can you just give 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:51.600 us a brief summary of what Robert's trial was like? 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:55.560 Sure? So you know, the focus of this case was 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:59.720 the bitemark evidence, but police and prosecutors wanted to have 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:03.960 more evidence to support this conviction. Police alleged that someone 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:06.880 named Claude Butler, who was no stranger to the Tampa 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:10.560 Police Department, they were very well acquainted with him, alleged 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:13.160 that Robert actually confessed to him while they were both 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:16.880 incarcerated at the local jail while Robert was awaiting trial. 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:21.480 Claude Butler at the time had been arrested previously for 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:24.960 various offenses, but at that time he also was facing 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:29.040 charges for kidnapping, robbery with a firearm, grand theft, auto 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:33.240 dealing in solo, and property battery on a law enforcement agent, 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:36.800 so he was looking at multiple life sentences, and so 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:40.440 Claude was the second piece of evidence that police used. 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:44.840 Then the third piece of evidence was this witness named Jack. 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:48.200 And Jack was really perplexing because there were no police 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:51.360 reports that memorialized any interviews with Jack. He was not 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:54.080 on the witness list. He didn't testify in the grand jury. 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:57.480 He pops up two weeks before Robert goes to trial, 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:01.000 and Jack alleges that he was staying at the Peter 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.080 Pan Motel, which is where Robert was arrested, and that 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:06.480 one day, he doesn't remember exactly what day it was, 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:08.679 but there was a party going on. He walked in, 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:11.760 he saw Robert sitting on the bed. He looked very glum, 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:14.600 and when he asked Robert what was going on? Again, 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:17.359 Robert does not know this person. Robert just says I 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:19.879 wanted for murder. And so from there they want the 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:22.960 jury to infer that Robert is confessing to committing this 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:26.040 crime or in some way corroborating the allegation that he 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:28.720 did commit this crime. And that's the entire case. 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:31.600 Robert, what are you thinking when you're watching you know, 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:34.000 people like Jack and Claude Butler, get up there on 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:36.199 the stand and talk about you what's going through your 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:37.879 mind when you're watching this testimony. 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:41.040 I was sitting there in disbelief, you know. I'm just 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:44.680 sitting there like, how can they even believe this stuff? 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:49.120 You know? So I just watched it like I was watching, 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:53.560 kind of like I was outside watching in you know. 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:56.560 So I said there every day they took me to 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:59.760 the courthouse at five am, and I didn't get back 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:02.480 to the jail till like midnight because they keep you 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:04.920 on the hold and sale for transport and all that. 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:08.199 So I was just sitting there. I was tired, I 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:12.000 was baffled. I just had no clue why we're sitting here, 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:12.560 you know. 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:16.439 And Susan, what kind of defense did Robert have to 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:17.399 start in this trial? 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:20.280 One thing that's important here is that this was a 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:24.000 capital trial, so Robert was facing the death penalty, and 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:28.239 he had an attorney whose defense in this case was 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:32.240 number one. He put on another dentist, doctor Norman Sperber, 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.359 who said that, oh no, this is a bitemark, but 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:37.200 it's not Robert's bite. There are too many inconsistencies here, 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:40.400 and so it can't be Robert's fight. So Now, basically 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:42.679 you had these two bitemark experts going at it and 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:44.520 what we call in the legal field the battle of 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:48.040 the experts, and it just came down to the jury 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:52.639 obviously siding with the prosecution. And the second thing was 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:55.600 that Robert's mother testified that Robert was home on the 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:58.159 night of the crime. And then the third part of 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:01.560 the case really was or trying to prove or trying 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:03.800 to convince the jury that Claude Butler should not be 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:07.280 trusted and that he was an incentivized witness. Right he's 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:11.399 facing multiple life sentences instead only got five years, and 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:14.280 to prove that that is why he cooperated with law enforcement. 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:16.960 You know, just listening, it seems like a really hard 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:19.919 thing for the defendant to overcome when this science is 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:23.960 just deemed, as you know, infallible. And then you have 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:26.960 a jailhouse snitch who we don't even know anything about 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:29.359 jailhouse snitches. Back then, we didn't know how often they 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:31.600 were being used. So these two things just must seem 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:33.640 impossible to overcome a trial. 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:37.720 That's right, you know. So you have this dentist who 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:40.560 gets on he is a famous dentist. He's known for 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:43.560 the Ted Bundy cases. He's got all of his fancy degrees, 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:47.080 he's got lots of credentials that he's telling the jury about, 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:50.359 and he testifies that to a reasonable degree of dental certainty, 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:53.800 Robert is the source of the bite. How does anyone 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:57.520 dispute that, who on the jury would then decide that, 0:19:57.600 --> 0:20:00.400 in fact, actually this dentist is wrong and I better 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:02.960 and this isn't a bite. This is something that we've 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:05.439 seen time and time again with a lot of cases 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:08.720 that involved the misapplication of forensic science. You have these 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:11.080 techniques that were born out of a need for law 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:15.120 enforcement to use them, that never are validated, that don't 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:17.480 go through the rigorous research that we do in other 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:20.919 areas of science and medicine. Yet then they're used in 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:23.400 courtrooms to convict people and to sentence them to death 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:26.680 the way this happened in Robert's case, Right, And. 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:29.320 I imagine just coming off knowing what a storm that 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:32.400 hold Ted Bundy case was. I mean, he was a superstar, 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.919 a superstar Dennist. He's the one that basically his credentials like, 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:38.800 I'm the one who solved it and enabled us to 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:41.080 catch Ted Bundy. So you know, you go on to 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:43.680 the next case, and you have this guy testifying. That's 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:47.440 a lot to overcome. Robert, can you talk about what 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:49.320 it was like. You know, you mentioned just sort of 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:52.399 being in a daze and being disbelieving that this was 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:54.600 actually happening to you, which is a pretty common theme. 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:57.360 But you know you obviously had to wait for that 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:00.280 verdict to come back. Can you just walk us that 0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:02.440 moment in your life. What you can remember of that 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:04.560 moment when the jury has a verdict. 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:11.600 During the trial, I kind of detached myself, so to speak, 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:17.040 so I wasn't worried about the verdict because I knew 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:19.879 I had done nothing wrong, so I still had a 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:23.480 little faith left in the system. So when they came 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:28.239 back with the verdict, yeah, I was just amazed. But 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:31.640 the senticing thing was the same way. You know, It's 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:36.560 like the jury recommended life in prison. The judge overwrote 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:40.760 it and said, you know, sentenced me to die by electrocution. 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:46.600 I'm just upset and baffled about the whole thing. And 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:49.720 now I know I'm really in a mess. I'm in 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:52.400 a trap, you know, and I don't see a way out. 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:55.159 I mean, I can't even imagine what that's like. The 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:58.240 jury comes back, says you're guilty, and then says they're 0:21:58.280 --> 0:22:02.600 sentencing you to life, and it gets worse the judge 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:05.600 overrides the jury recommendation. 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:06.480 Correct. 0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:08.880 Do you remember going back into your cell after that 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:11.359 and thinking I just got sentenced to death for a 0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:12.280 crime I didn't commit. 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:15.359