1
00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:03,440
Speaker 1: I'm Jason Flammett Wrongful Conviction. We're proud to be a

2
00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,080
Speaker 1: part of the ever growing landscape of true crime shows

3
00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:08,840
Speaker 1: that revealed just how our criminal legal system works and

4
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,639
Speaker 1: often where it fails. This week, I've invited a colleague

5
00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,600
Speaker 1: from another podcast to bring their unique style to our

6
00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,200
Speaker 1: coverage of yet another wrongful conviction.

7
00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,360
Speaker 2: Back in the late seventies and early eighties, there was

8
00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:28,080
Speaker 2: a string of violent crimes in Florida. Young women were

9
00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:32,120
Speaker 2: being raped and murdered seemingly at random. One of the

10
00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:36,640
Speaker 2: perpetrators was the infamous Ted Bundy. He was convicted for

11
00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,720
Speaker 2: one of these murders, and among the mountain of evidence

12
00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:44,400
Speaker 2: that was presented against him was a bike mark. A

13
00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,440
Speaker 2: dentist named doctor Suveran was called to testify against Bundy,

14
00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,520
Speaker 2: making famous the use of bike mark evidence known as

15
00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:58,240
Speaker 2: forensic odontology. Four years after Bundy was sent to death

16
00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,520
Speaker 2: row a young woman's body he was found with obvious

17
00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,920
Speaker 2: signs of sexual assault near Tampa. There was also an

18
00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:09,160
Speaker 2: injury on her cheek that the medical examiner determined to

19
00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,279
Speaker 2: be a bite mark. Given that it followed the highly

20
00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:16,399
Speaker 2: televised Bundy trial, police honed in on that bitemark to

21
00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:20,960
Speaker 2: the exclusion of all other evidence. They began taking bite

22
00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:25,440
Speaker 2: impressions or denticians from dozens of men in the neighborhood

23
00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,880
Speaker 2: and brought them to doctor Suveran. One of those men

24
00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:35,319
Speaker 2: was eighteen year old Robert Dubois. Doctor Suveran alleged that

25
00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:39,520
Speaker 2: Robert's dentician matched the bite mark on the victim, and

26
00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:44,319
Speaker 2: Robert was arrested. No other physical evidence tied him to

27
00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,560
Speaker 2: the case, but with the use of a jailhouse informant,

28
00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,840
Speaker 2: Robert was convicted of capital murder and sentenced to die

29
00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:56,440
Speaker 2: by electrocution for a crime he did not commit. This

30
00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:17,000
Speaker 2: is wrongful conviction. Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Gilbert King.

31
00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:19,400
Speaker 2: I'm I'm the Pulitzer Prise winning author of Devil in

32
00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,560
Speaker 2: the Grove, about Thurgood Marshall's representation of the young men

33
00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,680
Speaker 2: known as the Groveland Four who were just exonerated by

34
00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,960
Speaker 2: the State of Florida last year. I'm also the writer

35
00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,840
Speaker 2: and host of a new nine part narrative podcast called

36
00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,520
Speaker 2: Bone Valley by Lava for Good Podcasts, and I'm honored

37
00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,880
Speaker 2: to be guest hosting this episode of Wrongful Conviction. Today,

38
00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,079
Speaker 2: we have two very special guests, and I'm going to

39
00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,679
Speaker 2: ask them both to introduce themselves before we get into

40
00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,400
Speaker 2: the interview. So let's start out with Robert Dubois.

41
00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,760
Speaker 3: Well, my name is Robert Dubois. So I was just

42
00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:57,720
Speaker 3: exonerated in twenty twenty and right now I'm sitting in

43
00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:02,440
Speaker 3: my apartment in Tampa, Florida to you guys, and we also.

44
00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,560
Speaker 2: Have Susan Friedman. Susan, you want to introduce yourself?

45
00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks Gilbert for having me. My name is Susan Friedman.

46
00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,520
Speaker 4: I'm a senior staff attorney at the Innocence Project based

47
00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,320
Speaker 4: in New York City, and I represented Robert through his

48
00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:14,160
Speaker 4: wrongful conviction.

49
00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,160
Speaker 2: Oh, this is amazing. We have so much to talk

50
00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:19,840
Speaker 2: about then, because this is really going to be really fascinating.

51
00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:24,040
Speaker 2: I studied the case very familiar with Tampa. Robert, the

52
00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,800
Speaker 2: event that would change your life occurred back in nineteen

53
00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,200
Speaker 2: eighty three in Tampa. You were just eighteen years old.

54
00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:32,840
Speaker 2: Can you talk about who you were and what your

55
00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:34,880
Speaker 2: life was before that arrest.

56
00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:39,120
Speaker 3: Well, at that time, I was working in town and

57
00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:44,120
Speaker 3: country at an auto a postry shop for Noel's Autawa Postry.

58
00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:48,240
Speaker 3: So I used to ride my bike. It's like, I

59
00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,400
Speaker 3: guess about five miles. So I wrote it to town and

60
00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:58,320
Speaker 3: country every day for the job. So suddenly my whole

61
00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,800
Speaker 3: world was upside down because I'm doing my everyday thing,

62
00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,880
Speaker 3: going back and forth to work, and then next thing

63
00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,360
Speaker 3: you know, I'm in a cell wondering why now.

64
00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,080
Speaker 2: I mean, this has just came out of the blue

65
00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:12,560
Speaker 2: for you. I mean, do you didn't have any prior

66
00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:14,240
Speaker 2: runnings with the law or do you have you had

67
00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,200
Speaker 2: any understanding of what was happening.

68
00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:18,080
Speaker 3: I did have a prior running with the law when

69
00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:22,160
Speaker 3: I was a teenager, so it was about an empty

70
00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,640
Speaker 3: house or car parts, just some dumb stuff. And I

71
00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:30,200
Speaker 3: had moved past that and had two years probation community

72
00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:34,320
Speaker 3: work hours for the Police Athletic League, which I completed,

73
00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,159
Speaker 3: and next thing you know, I'm in jail being accused

74
00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:39,719
Speaker 3: of murder.

75
00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:42,520
Speaker 2: And let's go back to that in a minute. But Susan,

76
00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,480
Speaker 2: I just want to ask you your experience you're coming in.

77
00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,960
Speaker 2: What does you like really understand about Tampa, Florida and

78
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:51,680
Speaker 2: this time the early eighties. You know a lot of

79
00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,520
Speaker 2: people think of like Miami Vice, this is that era,

80
00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,480
Speaker 2: but this is not like South Florida. This is Central Florida, Tampa.

81
00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,479
Speaker 2: It's a little sleepier, right, Yeah.

82
00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,719
Speaker 4: I mean, the one thing to know is that around

83
00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,239
Speaker 4: the time when this crime occurred that Robert was wrongfully

84
00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,560
Speaker 4: convicted of, there actually were a string of women who

85
00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,720
Speaker 4: were sexually assaulted and murdered. There wasn't a clear m

86
00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:15,799
Speaker 4: but there were a number of women that turned up dead,

87
00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,279
Speaker 4: one of them obviously being the victim and Roberts case.

88
00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,000
Speaker 4: The other thing that turns out to be really important

89
00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,599
Speaker 4: is that Florida is the home of the Ted Bundy case.

90
00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,200
Speaker 4: And in the nineteen seventies, Ted Bundy eventually comes to

91
00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,000
Speaker 4: confess to around thirty cases, and one of the really

92
00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,640
Speaker 4: important pieces of evidence is bitemark testimony, and that's what

93
00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,760
Speaker 4: actually puts doctor Richard suver On on the map. And

94
00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:43,640
Speaker 4: doctor sub On testified in the Ted Bundy trials and

95
00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,560
Speaker 4: he also lived in Florida. So this was just a

96
00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,919
Speaker 4: very high profile time for bitemark evidence generally in the

97
00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:51,040
Speaker 4: criminal legal system.

98
00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,320
Speaker 2: And can you just talk briefly about how that science

99
00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,680
Speaker 2: has come to be viewed today as opposed to back

100
00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:57,960
Speaker 2: in the nineteen eighties.

101
00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:02,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, you know, we today know that fitemark evidence

102
00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,720
Speaker 4: has been wholly discredited. Not only has the National Academy

103
00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,240
Speaker 4: of Sciences, who did a review of this type of

104
00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:13,160
Speaker 4: evidence back in two thousand and nine, even the ABFO,

105
00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,640
Speaker 4: the group that regulates forensic odeontologists, have made significant revisions

106
00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,800
Speaker 4: to the conclusions that they can make in twenty sixteen,

107
00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,920
Speaker 4: and so in twenty sixteen, after a number of research

108
00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,720
Speaker 4: studies that they concluded that they no longer can do

109
00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,000
Speaker 4: what's known as source attribution. I mean that's say a

110
00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,520
Speaker 4: certain individual was the bier in a case. And so

111
00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,279
Speaker 4: that came after years of research in this to finally

112
00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:39,720
Speaker 4: debunk this type of evidence that for so long has

113
00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,080
Speaker 4: been held up as an important piece of evidence, but

114
00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,120
Speaker 4: that we know today has led to many, many wrongful convictions.

115
00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,200
Speaker 4: We know of at least thirty four wrongful convictions in

116
00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,280
Speaker 4: the United States, Robert being one of them.

117
00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:53,480
Speaker 2: Susan, can we just talk about the case that brought

118
00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,080
Speaker 2: Robert into trouble? Can you just talk about the facts

119
00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:56,680
Speaker 2: of the crime.

120
00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,599
Speaker 4: Yeah. On August nineteenth, nineteen eighty three, in the early

121
00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,839
Speaker 4: morning hours, a dentist was showing up at work. He

122
00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,760
Speaker 4: was opening up his shop and in the back he

123
00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,920
Speaker 4: found the victim in this case, she had been she

124
00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,960
Speaker 4: was severely beaten, and she was there was certainly evidence

125
00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,680
Speaker 4: that she had been either actually sexually assaulted or there

126
00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,680
Speaker 4: was an attempted sexual assault. She was completely nude except

127
00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,360
Speaker 4: for a tube top that was pushed up above her

128
00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:29,400
Speaker 4: chest that exposed her breasts. So police immediately started investigating

129
00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:34,520
Speaker 4: and they canvass the neighborhood. Unfortunately, there were no eyewitnesses,

130
00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,000
Speaker 4: and so what we know about the victim is that

131
00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,840
Speaker 4: she worked at a local restaurant, a local fast food chain,

132
00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,720
Speaker 4: and she had left somewhere around nine to nine fifteen

133
00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,480
Speaker 4: in the evening after closing up. We know that someone

134
00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,200
Speaker 4: saw her about nine thirty PM a couple blocks away

135
00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,600
Speaker 4: from her home. But then she's found eight blocks south

136
00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,000
Speaker 4: of that, and so police started canvassing. They couldn't find

137
00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,040
Speaker 4: anyone who had any information, and so very quickly this

138
00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,360
Speaker 4: case focused in on the physical evidence, and that evidence

139
00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,680
Speaker 4: came from the medical examiner's office. During the autopsy, the

140
00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,520
Speaker 4: medical examiner concluded three things. First, that the victim was

141
00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,880
Speaker 4: killed as a result of blunt force trauma. As I said,

142
00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,520
Speaker 4: she had been severely beaten, and at the crime scene

143
00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:17,720
Speaker 4: they found a total of four to two by four

144
00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:21,000
Speaker 4: wooden boards by her, and they all had and a

145
00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:22,720
Speaker 4: few of them had blood and hair on them, which

146
00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,120
Speaker 4: suggested that they were the murder weapon. The emmy also

147
00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,000
Speaker 4: concluded that she likely was sexually assaulted. And then the

148
00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,120
Speaker 4: third when he washed her face, he saw that there

149
00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,560
Speaker 4: was a pattern injury on her left cheek, which he

150
00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,160
Speaker 4: concluded even though he is not an odontologist or a

151
00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,439
Speaker 4: bitemark expert, he actually concluded must have been a bitemark.

152
00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,199
Speaker 2: How did police begin to narrow this down to certain suspects?

153
00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:49,720
Speaker 4: So, because law enforcement didn't have any eyewitnesses, they really

154
00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,480
Speaker 4: focused in on the bite mark, and in this case,

155
00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,760
Speaker 4: the medical examiner identified what he believed to be a

156
00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,200
Speaker 4: bitemark on the victim's left cheek. He excized it and

157
00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,600
Speaker 4: put it in formal to hide, which caused it to shrink.

158
00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,560
Speaker 4: But then the photographs of the bitemark were shared with

159
00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,559
Speaker 4: doctor Suban, and doctor Subarron concluded that this was a

160
00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:09,840
Speaker 4: human bitemark and that he would be able to make

161
00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:14,200
Speaker 4: a comparison. So doctor Subron then advised law enforcement to

162
00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:18,520
Speaker 4: start collecting denticians from individuals who they believed were suspects,

163
00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,880
Speaker 4: and to do that using bees wax and if folks

164
00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,880
Speaker 4: are thinking about why beeswax. It doesn't really make sense.

165
00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,680
Speaker 4: You're right, because beeswax is not a good method for

166
00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,360
Speaker 4: capturing someone's dentition, but that's what they were using. And

167
00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,800
Speaker 4: so Detective Saladino started going around and collecting dozens and

168
00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,319
Speaker 4: dozens of denticians from basically any individual that they came

169
00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,600
Speaker 4: into contact with, and they turned their attention to Robert

170
00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:48,920
Speaker 4: because they interviewed a woman who had worked at at

171
00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,360
Speaker 4: a store about a block away from where the victim

172
00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,360
Speaker 4: was discovered. And what's interesting about this individual is that

173
00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:57,840
Speaker 4: she worked at the store back in February, which is

174
00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,120
Speaker 4: six months before this crime. But she alleged that she

175
00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,000
Speaker 4: knew a couple of boys who, as she said quote,

176
00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,000
Speaker 4: caused trouble. That's what led police to focus in on

177
00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,600
Speaker 4: Robert and to ask him for his beeswax tentition.

178
00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:12,520
Speaker 2: So, Robert, can you just talk a little bit about

179
00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,440
Speaker 2: your first contact with police and what you were thinking

180
00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,280
Speaker 2: when you got approached. What was that like that moment?

181
00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,520
Speaker 3: Well, I wasn't very fond of cops in general. I

182
00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:26,640
Speaker 3: was a teenager. But when I was approached, he's like,

183
00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:31,800
Speaker 3: would you mind doing a beeswax impression? And I'm like,

184
00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,960
Speaker 3: for what he says, Well, we're just doing you know,

185
00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,560
Speaker 3: everybody in the neighborhood or whatever, even though I'm not

186
00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:41,160
Speaker 3: even from that neighborhood. So I went with him downtown

187
00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:45,480
Speaker 3: with the only two in the police detective division, and

188
00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,079
Speaker 3: he asked me to bite into a soft piece of beeswax,

189
00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:54,080
Speaker 3: so I did, and he drove me back home and

190
00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,920
Speaker 3: he made a crazy statement on the way home. He says,

191
00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,400
Speaker 3: there was two girls walking down the street. I thought

192
00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,880
Speaker 3: it pretty weird. He says, which do you prefer? Blonde

193
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:08,160
Speaker 3: or brunette? I said, what does it matter? You know?

194
00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,480
Speaker 3: So he didn't say anymore, and he dropped me off

195
00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:15,439
Speaker 3: at home. So then I didn't hear anymore until October

196
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,439
Speaker 3: twenty first, nineteen eighty three, when they came to my

197
00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,200
Speaker 3: door at two thirty in the morning and asked me

198
00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,800
Speaker 3: to go downtown and said that my mom needed to

199
00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,800
Speaker 3: see me. So, taking the consideration, my father's in a wheelchair,

200
00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:35,520
Speaker 3: he's completely paralyzed, so I'm thinking, if my mom needs

201
00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:39,040
Speaker 3: to see me, something's really going on here. So I

202
00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,719
Speaker 3: go downtown. Of course my mom isn't there, and then

203
00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,520
Speaker 3: they tell me Detective Saladino will come shortly and explain

204
00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:51,400
Speaker 3: what's going on. So in the interim, I'm sitting there

205
00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,679
Speaker 3: and the detective looks at me and he's talking about fishing,

206
00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,640
Speaker 3: the weather, all this normal stuff, and then he says,

207
00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,920
Speaker 3: why'd you do it? I said, why did I do?

208
00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:02,040
Speaker 1: What?

209
00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:07,080
Speaker 3: He said, why did you kill her? I said kill who?

210
00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,520
Speaker 3: I said, what? Are you crazy? So I'm thinking it's

211
00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:12,600
Speaker 3: some kind of sick joke.

212
00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,199
Speaker 2: So aside from this, there's no other physical evidence that

213
00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,319
Speaker 2: is causing police to focus in on Robert. It's just

214
00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:21,679
Speaker 2: they're doing this thing with the.

215
00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:25,800
Speaker 4: Teeth, right, Yeah, that's right. Police approach Robert and he's

216
00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,960
Speaker 4: completely cooperative because he has nothing to hide. He knows

217
00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,320
Speaker 4: he didn't commit this crime. In fact, the other forensic

218
00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,359
Speaker 4: evidence excludes Robert.

219
00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,400
Speaker 2: And would you consider that an example of tunnel vision.

220
00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,520
Speaker 2: You have all this other evidence that's possibly exculpatory, is excalpatory,

221
00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,280
Speaker 2: and yet here they are focusing on this something that

222
00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,600
Speaker 2: we now consider junk science. What happened there?

223
00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,280
Speaker 4: That's exactly right. This is classic tunnel vision and cognitive

224
00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,559
Speaker 4: bias setting in. This was a case with no eyewitnesses,

225
00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,840
Speaker 4: and when police got their tip and they believe that

226
00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,440
Speaker 4: Robert was the source of the bite mark. All the

227
00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,960
Speaker 4: other evidence that was exculpatory, they found reasons to ignore,

228
00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:07,600
Speaker 4: and they focused in on Robber and were able to

229
00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,240
Speaker 4: explain away any facts that didn't line up with their

230
00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:11,160
Speaker 4: theory of the case.

231
00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,000
Speaker 2: Robert, this must have been, you know, the worst day

232
00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:15,800
Speaker 2: of your life to get accused of something like this

233
00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,360
Speaker 2: and arrested. Can you just walk through the arrest and

234
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:19,439
Speaker 2: what that was like for you?

235
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I was very angry and baffled. I

236
00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,079
Speaker 3: mean I was very angry, angry with the police when

237
00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,840
Speaker 3: they tried to handcuff me because I knew I had

238
00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:34,000
Speaker 3: done nothing wrong, you know. And then because I'm angry

239
00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,719
Speaker 3: when they took me to the jail, they had the

240
00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:40,640
Speaker 3: nurse shoot me up with how doll, so that put

241
00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,240
Speaker 3: me out, and when I woke up, I was strapped

242
00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:48,839
Speaker 3: down to a steal bunk with leather straps. So then

243
00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:53,960
Speaker 3: the following morning they take me for all these dental

244
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,040
Speaker 3: impressions and I'm still doped up off the how doll

245
00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,760
Speaker 3: or whatever it was, and I was just baffled. I

246
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,319
Speaker 3: was just trying to get it over with because I

247
00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,120
Speaker 3: knew I had done nothing wrong. So I was living

248
00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:08,839
Speaker 3: kind of like in a bad dream, I couldn't wake

249
00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:09,320
Speaker 3: up for him.

250
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,840
Speaker 5: This episode is sponsored by the AIG pro Bono Program.

251
00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,480
Speaker 5: AIG is a leading global insurance company, and the AIG

252
00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:30,000
Speaker 5: pro Bono Program provides free legal services, as well as

253
00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:34,240
Speaker 5: other support to many nonprofit organizations as well as individuals

254
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,880
Speaker 5: who are most in need, and they recently announced that

255
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,480
Speaker 5: working to reform the criminal justice system will become a

256
00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:43,880
Speaker 5: key pillar of the program's mission.

257
00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,080
Speaker 2: And any of the time, did you ever occur to

258
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:55,880
Speaker 2: you like I need a lawyer at this point.

259
00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:00,200
Speaker 3: No, because I knew I had done nothing wrong, So

260
00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:02,560
Speaker 3: it never even really crossed my mind. I didn't know

261
00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,840
Speaker 3: enough about the legal system to even know I had

262
00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:05,320
Speaker 3: that right.

263
00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:07,760
Speaker 4: And I think one of the things that's really important

264
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:09,600
Speaker 4: about Robert just said is that a lot of times

265
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,440
Speaker 4: people's innocence puts them at risk, especially in interrogations and

266
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,800
Speaker 4: in these kinds of situations where they're interacting with law enforcement.

267
00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:18,880
Speaker 4: They know that they're innocent, and they believe that the

268
00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,760
Speaker 4: evidence will prove that. And so Robert went ahead and

269
00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,760
Speaker 4: completely cooperated with law enforcement knowing that he didn't commit

270
00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,320
Speaker 4: this crime, he didn't bite the victim, he was never

271
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:30,400
Speaker 4: there and so he had no reason to hide on anything,

272
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:32,320
Speaker 4: and so he didn't think he needed a lawyer.

273
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm always amazed by the exgonneries that you talk to.

274
00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,440
Speaker 2: They have so much faith in the justice system. They

275
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,600
Speaker 2: will just clear this up together. We'll talk this over

276
00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,160
Speaker 2: because I didn't do it, and they are at the

277
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,000
Speaker 2: most risk of anybody because they're just talking the police

278
00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,720
Speaker 2: right off the bat. So, Susan, can you just give

279
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,600
Speaker 2: us a brief summary of what Robert's trial was like?

280
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,560
Speaker 4: Sure? So you know, the focus of this case was

281
00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,720
Speaker 4: the bitemark evidence, but police and prosecutors wanted to have

282
00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,960
Speaker 4: more evidence to support this conviction. Police alleged that someone

283
00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,880
Speaker 4: named Claude Butler, who was no stranger to the Tampa

284
00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:10,560
Speaker 4: Police Department, they were very well acquainted with him, alleged

285
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,160
Speaker 4: that Robert actually confessed to him while they were both

286
00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,880
Speaker 4: incarcerated at the local jail while Robert was awaiting trial.

287
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,480
Speaker 4: Claude Butler at the time had been arrested previously for

288
00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,960
Speaker 4: various offenses, but at that time he also was facing

289
00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:29,040
Speaker 4: charges for kidnapping, robbery with a firearm, grand theft, auto

290
00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,240
Speaker 4: dealing in solo, and property battery on a law enforcement agent,

291
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,800
Speaker 4: so he was looking at multiple life sentences, and so

292
00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,440
Speaker 4: Claude was the second piece of evidence that police used.

293
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,840
Speaker 4: Then the third piece of evidence was this witness named Jack.

294
00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,200
Speaker 4: And Jack was really perplexing because there were no police

295
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,360
Speaker 4: reports that memorialized any interviews with Jack. He was not

296
00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,080
Speaker 4: on the witness list. He didn't testify in the grand jury.

297
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,480
Speaker 4: He pops up two weeks before Robert goes to trial,

298
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,000
Speaker 4: and Jack alleges that he was staying at the Peter

299
00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,080
Speaker 4: Pan Motel, which is where Robert was arrested, and that

300
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,480
Speaker 4: one day, he doesn't remember exactly what day it was,

301
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:08,679
Speaker 4: but there was a party going on. He walked in,

302
00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,760
Speaker 4: he saw Robert sitting on the bed. He looked very glum,

303
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,600
Speaker 4: and when he asked Robert what was going on? Again,

304
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,359
Speaker 4: Robert does not know this person. Robert just says I

305
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:19,879
Speaker 4: wanted for murder. And so from there they want the

306
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,960
Speaker 4: jury to infer that Robert is confessing to committing this

307
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,040
Speaker 4: crime or in some way corroborating the allegation that he

308
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,720
Speaker 4: did commit this crime. And that's the entire case.

309
00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:31,600
Speaker 2: Robert, what are you thinking when you're watching you know,

310
00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,000
Speaker 2: people like Jack and Claude Butler, get up there on

311
00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,199
Speaker 2: the stand and talk about you what's going through your

312
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:37,879
Speaker 2: mind when you're watching this testimony.

313
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,040
Speaker 3: I was sitting there in disbelief, you know. I'm just

314
00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,680
Speaker 3: sitting there like, how can they even believe this stuff?

315
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,120
Speaker 3: You know? So I just watched it like I was watching,

316
00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,560
Speaker 3: kind of like I was outside watching in you know.

317
00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:56,560
Speaker 3: So I said there every day they took me to

318
00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,760
Speaker 3: the courthouse at five am, and I didn't get back

319
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,480
Speaker 3: to the jail till like midnight because they keep you

320
00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:04,920
Speaker 3: on the hold and sale for transport and all that.

321
00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,199
Speaker 3: So I was just sitting there. I was tired, I

322
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,000
Speaker 3: was baffled. I just had no clue why we're sitting here,

323
00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:12,560
Speaker 3: you know.

324
00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,439
Speaker 2: And Susan, what kind of defense did Robert have to

325
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:17,399
Speaker 2: start in this trial?

326
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,280
Speaker 4: One thing that's important here is that this was a

327
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:24,000
Speaker 4: capital trial, so Robert was facing the death penalty, and

328
00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:28,239
Speaker 4: he had an attorney whose defense in this case was

329
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:32,240
Speaker 4: number one. He put on another dentist, doctor Norman Sperber,

330
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:34,359
Speaker 4: who said that, oh no, this is a bitemark, but

331
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,200
Speaker 4: it's not Robert's bite. There are too many inconsistencies here,

332
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,400
Speaker 4: and so it can't be Robert's fight. So Now, basically

333
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,679
Speaker 4: you had these two bitemark experts going at it and

334
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:44,520
Speaker 4: what we call in the legal field the battle of

335
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,040
Speaker 4: the experts, and it just came down to the jury

336
00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,639
Speaker 4: obviously siding with the prosecution. And the second thing was

337
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,600
Speaker 4: that Robert's mother testified that Robert was home on the

338
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,159
Speaker 4: night of the crime. And then the third part of

339
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,560
Speaker 4: the case really was or trying to prove or trying

340
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:03,800
Speaker 4: to convince the jury that Claude Butler should not be

341
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,280
Speaker 4: trusted and that he was an incentivized witness. Right he's

342
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:11,399
Speaker 4: facing multiple life sentences instead only got five years, and

343
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,280
Speaker 4: to prove that that is why he cooperated with law enforcement.

344
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:16,960
Speaker 2: You know, just listening, it seems like a really hard

345
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,919
Speaker 2: thing for the defendant to overcome when this science is

346
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,960
Speaker 2: just deemed, as you know, infallible. And then you have

347
00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,960
Speaker 2: a jailhouse snitch who we don't even know anything about

348
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,359
Speaker 2: jailhouse snitches. Back then, we didn't know how often they

349
00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:31,600
Speaker 2: were being used. So these two things just must seem

350
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:33,640
Speaker 2: impossible to overcome a trial.

351
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,720
Speaker 4: That's right, you know. So you have this dentist who

352
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,560
Speaker 4: gets on he is a famous dentist. He's known for

353
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,560
Speaker 4: the Ted Bundy cases. He's got all of his fancy degrees,

354
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,080
Speaker 4: he's got lots of credentials that he's telling the jury about,

355
00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,359
Speaker 4: and he testifies that to a reasonable degree of dental certainty,

356
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,800
Speaker 4: Robert is the source of the bite. How does anyone

357
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,520
Speaker 4: dispute that, who on the jury would then decide that,

358
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,400
Speaker 4: in fact, actually this dentist is wrong and I better

359
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,960
Speaker 4: and this isn't a bite. This is something that we've

360
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,439
Speaker 4: seen time and time again with a lot of cases

361
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,720
Speaker 4: that involved the misapplication of forensic science. You have these

362
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,080
Speaker 4: techniques that were born out of a need for law

363
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:15,120
Speaker 4: enforcement to use them, that never are validated, that don't

364
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,480
Speaker 4: go through the rigorous research that we do in other

365
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,919
Speaker 4: areas of science and medicine. Yet then they're used in

366
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,400
Speaker 4: courtrooms to convict people and to sentence them to death

367
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,680
Speaker 4: the way this happened in Robert's case, Right, And.

368
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,320
Speaker 2: I imagine just coming off knowing what a storm that

369
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,400
Speaker 2: hold Ted Bundy case was. I mean, he was a superstar,

370
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,919
Speaker 2: a superstar Dennist. He's the one that basically his credentials like,

371
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,800
Speaker 2: I'm the one who solved it and enabled us to

372
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 2: catch Ted Bundy. So you know, you go on to

373
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,680
Speaker 2: the next case, and you have this guy testifying. That's

374
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,440
Speaker 2: a lot to overcome. Robert, can you talk about what

375
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,320
Speaker 2: it was like. You know, you mentioned just sort of

376
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,399
Speaker 2: being in a daze and being disbelieving that this was

377
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:54,600
Speaker 2: actually happening to you, which is a pretty common theme.

378
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,360
Speaker 2: But you know you obviously had to wait for that

379
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 2: verdict to come back. Can you just walk us that

380
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,440
Speaker 2: moment in your life. What you can remember of that

381
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:04,560
Speaker 2: moment when the jury has a verdict.

382
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:11,600
Speaker 3: During the trial, I kind of detached myself, so to speak,

383
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 3: so I wasn't worried about the verdict because I knew

384
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,879
Speaker 3: I had done nothing wrong, so I still had a

385
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 3: little faith left in the system. So when they came

386
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:28,239
Speaker 3: back with the verdict, yeah, I was just amazed. But

387
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,640
Speaker 3: the senticing thing was the same way. You know, It's

388
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:36,560
Speaker 3: like the jury recommended life in prison. The judge overwrote

389
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 3: it and said, you know, sentenced me to die by electrocution.

390
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 3: I'm just upset and baffled about the whole thing. And

391
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,720
Speaker 3: now I know I'm really in a mess. I'm in

392
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,400
Speaker 3: a trap, you know, and I don't see a way out.

393
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,159
Speaker 2: I mean, I can't even imagine what that's like. The

394
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,240
Speaker 2: jury comes back, says you're guilty, and then says they're

395
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 2: sentencing you to life, and it gets worse the judge

396
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,600
Speaker 2: overrides the jury recommendation.

397
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:06,480
Speaker 3: Correct.

398
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:08,880
Speaker 2: Do you remember going back into your cell after that

399
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,359
Speaker 2: and thinking I just got sentenced to death for a

400
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 2: crime I didn't commit.

401
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,359
Speaker 3: Yes, So once they sentenced me to death, it's like

402
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,679
Speaker 3: from that moment on, I had like thirty officers around me,

403
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 3: you know, escorting me all the way back to the

404
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,680
Speaker 3: jail into my cell. If I had if they let

405
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 3: me out to use the phone, I had thirty officers

406
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 3: surrounding me. So I think it was only like until

407
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 3: the next morning. They got a transport to take me

408
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 3: to Death Row at two thirty in the morning.

409
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 2: And what was that like? You were rivaling, you know,

410
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 2: at this age, arriving at you know, Florida's most notorious

411
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 2: death row. What was that like? I mean, could you

412
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,359
Speaker 2: just imagine yourself in this situation and how do you

413
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:52,679
Speaker 2: hang on to any optimism at this point?

414
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,959
Speaker 3: Well, I know, the ride to death Row, still in

415
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,959
Speaker 3: a daze, and I'm wondering, how could this be happening?

416
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 3: You know, how did this just happen to me? Why

417
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 3: am I going to death Row, you know. And then

418
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:10,160
Speaker 3: I arrive at Death Row, or Florida State Prison, and

419
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 3: I see this big green building and it's like a

420
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 3: filling of gloom when you see this building. And then

421
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,920
Speaker 3: I go up into the building. They escort me down

422
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 3: this long hallway into a cell on death Row and

423
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 3: they slammed the door, and that's my new home. And

424
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 3: I'm like, man, are these guys like sitting here waiting

425
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 3: to die? So it was very disturbing. And you know,

426
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 3: some of the guys already had warrant signed, so they

427
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 3: were really afraid because they knew if their name may

428
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,399
Speaker 3: come up, once it comes up again, they might get killed.

429
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 3: You know. So these things, you know, went through all

430
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,439
Speaker 3: of our heads. You know, is it going to be

431
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 3: my turn? When you hear that plane fly over the prison?

432
00:23:59,200 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 3: You don't know?

433
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,639
Speaker 2: And is it true that old Sparky the Florida's Electric

434
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 2: Chair it's right there on death Row, isn't it correct?

435
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,360
Speaker 2: I mean in the eighties it was pretty active, right.

436
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it was on Q wing. So yeah, well,

437
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 3: just while I was there alone, they killed Marvin Francois,

438
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:22,160
Speaker 3: Jeff Dawtry, Willie Darden, Ted Bundy, another guy I only

439
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 3: knew him as Frog another guy named Tiny, So they

440
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 3: killed all total while I was there, like twelve.

441
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 2: What is that like being on death row when that happens.

442
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 2: What's the general mood among people on death row?

443
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,640
Speaker 3: It's very quiet and gloomy, you know. It's like, let

444
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 3: me tell you the torture, the mental torture they used

445
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 3: on death row, even though they may not even realize

446
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 3: they were doing it. I thought they did though. Is

447
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 3: a plane Whenever the governor signs a death war. The

448
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 3: plane flies over Florida State Prison, lands on their runway,

449
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 3: and walks the death war into the colonel of the prison.

450
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 3: The colonel sends his officers to death row to get

451
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 3: whoever it belongs to. Then they escort them up to

452
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 3: the colonel's office, they go to death watch, and nine

453
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 3: times out of ten you don't see them no more.

454
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 2: That must be just the most terrifying sound when you're

455
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,679
Speaker 2: in death row to hear a plane landing.

456
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that. And then every Wednesday, at one o'clock

457
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 3: in the afternoon they would test the electric chair, so

458
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 3: all the lights on death row would them.

459
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 2: Robert, three years after your conviction, your attorney managed to

460
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 2: get your death sentence changed to life in prison with

461
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 2: a mandatory quarter, meaning you'd get to go see the

462
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 2: parole board after twenty five years served. You must have

463
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 2: felt a bitter relief when that happened.

464
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 3: No, not at all. So now I'm not on death row.

465
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 3: I no longer have the right for legal representation anymore.

466
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 3: Now I am literally on my own. You're entitled to

467
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 3: legal representation as long as you have a death sentence.

468
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 3: I was not happy when my death sentence got overturned

469
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 3: to life because I had asked the attorney over and

470
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 3: over again to please fight the conviction, and he kept

471
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,679
Speaker 3: fighting the sentencing. How do I hope to prove my

472
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 3: innocence is all if all you're doing is fighting to

473
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 3: get a death sentence turned to life. Now I went

474
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 3: from death row to the worst population in the state

475
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 3: of Florida. So FSP is the dumping ground for what

476
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 3: they considered the worst of the worst. Okay, this is

477
00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 3: inmates that's been at other institutions, stabbed of the inmates,

478
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 3: raped out the inmates, stabbed officers, and done just numerous

479
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 3: awful things and they got sent here as a punishment.

480
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 3: So it's like the wild Wild West. They won't accept

481
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 3: me to no other prison because I came from death row.

482
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 3: That's how I end up at FSP.

483
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 2: FSP, by the way, is Florida State Prison. And while

484
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: you were there, you were writing a lot of letters.

485
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 2: How did you get to be such a prolific letter writer?

486
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 3: I had never written a letter till I went to jail,

487
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 3: not that I remember, you know, And now that's all

488
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 3: I'm doing.

489
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 2: Susan, can you just give us a brief synopsis of

490
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 2: this post conviction history that Robert had, Like what he

491
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 2: was trying to do, what kind of appeals he was

492
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 2: trying to find, what areas he was looking to explore.

493
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 4: Robert was his own best advocate. He wrote to everybody,

494
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 4: and that included lawyers, the media, really anyone who would listen.

495
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 4: And you know, after his death sentence was vacated, he

496
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 4: continued to have hope that the truth would come to

497
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 4: light and that he would be proven innocent. And one

498
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 4: of the really important things that Robert did was in

499
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 4: two thousand and six, he filed emotion for access to

500
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 4: DNA testing because he believed if we use this modern

501
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 4: DNA testing that's now available, it would prove that he

502
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 4: was innocent. And what is truly remarkable here is that

503
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 4: he was convicted in nineteen eighty five, and what we

504
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 4: learned is that in October of nineteen ninety, just five

505
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 4: years after he's convicted, the State of Florida destroys all

506
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 4: of the evidence that was admitted at his trial, including

507
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 4: the victim's rape kit. So they have an extensive hearing

508
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 4: where the state puts on evidence that everything was destroyed

509
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 4: and that the only evidence that's remaining are a few

510
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 4: hairs and two cigarette butts and su as.

511
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 2: I'm just really curious the laws about, you know, in

512
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 2: a capital case, they're disposing evidence after five years, Like,

513
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 2: what are the laws about that?

514
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 4: So today we have preservation laws in I believe every

515
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 4: single state, but here in nineteen ninety, Robert's death sentence

516
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 4: had been vacated and so the court just entered an

517
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 4: order disposing of all of the evidence. Luckily, as we

518
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,719
Speaker 4: learned in post conviction with the reinvestigation, that was actually

519
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 4: not the case. But it was shocking to see that

520
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 4: in nineteen ninety, just five short years after a death sentence,

521
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 4: that the state destroyed all of that biological evidence, especially

522
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 4: because in nineteen ninety we did start to have DNA

523
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 4: come online and it was started, it was being used,

524
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 4: So that was really shocking to see in this case.

525
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 2: Susan, how did you become involved in this case?

526
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 4: Robert wrote to the Innocence Project the way he wrote

527
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 4: to many organizations. And when we reviewed this case, there

528
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 4: were two things that set out to us that he

529
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 4: was convicted based on faulty forensics and a jail house informant,

530
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 4: which are two leading contributing factors to wrongful conviction. And

531
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 4: we believe that even though they said that a significant

532
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 4: amount of the DNA evidence was destroyed, it's possible that

533
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 4: we could still get access to some of that other

534
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 4: evidence and do some additional retesting. And so we accepted

535
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 4: Robert's case and we started investigating immediately.

536
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 2: And Robert, what was that like for you? I mean,

537
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 2: just being in this situation and just thinking about all

538
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 2: these years that are passing for you.

539
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, I was hoping to have

540
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 3: a wife and kids and a house and all this stuff.

541
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 3: So that was taken for me. That didn't happen still

542
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 3: has to happen. So I started focusing on not the

543
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 3: things I didn't have, but be grateful for the things

544
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 3: I do have and did have. So I just moved forward.

545
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 3: And as the years went by, I had three parole hearings,

546
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 3: all three were negative. It didn't happen. Now, in my mind,

547
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 3: this is like the last straw, you know, this is

548
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 3: pretty much blocks off everything I had going for me.

549
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 3: And I'm like, you know, I just felt total hopelessness,

550
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 3: and I just put my hands together and I said, God,

551
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 3: send your hands. That night, they have what they call

552
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 3: a legal call out sheet letting you know you have

553
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 3: legal mail. So the next day I went to get

554
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 3: the letter and it was from Susan saying that hey,

555
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 3: we read your case. We're taking your case, you know,

556
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 3: And then like I think a week later, she was

557
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 3: sitting across the table from me talking to me.

558
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 4: When we accepted the case, I started digging into Robert's file.

559
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 4: This was a capital case. There were a lot of materials.

560
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 4: While I had hope that we'd be able to do

561
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 4: some additional DNA testing on the items that we believed

562
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 4: still existed, I also knew that this was going to

563
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 4: be an informant case. We had to get to the

564
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 4: bottom of what was going on with Claude Butler because

565
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 4: just from a cold read of the record, it is

566
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 4: clear that he is incentivized and that he was testifying

567
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 4: falsely at Robert's trial. So we started digging into him immediately,

568
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 4: and very quickly, a lot of things surfaced about him

569
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 4: that confirmed all of our original suspicions. The trial prosecutor

570
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 4: in Robert's case, who elicited all kinds of testimony about

571
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 4: the fact that Claude Butler was not receiving any benefits,

572
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 4: he was testifying out of the goodness of his heart.

573
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 4: He believed this was the right thing to do, to

574
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 4: tell everybody what Robert confessed to him. We found out

575
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 4: that the trial prosecutor in Robert's case filed e motion

576
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 4: to mitigate in the informants case, urging that judge to

577
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 4: let Claude Butler walk free because Claude Butler was a

578
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 4: key witness in Robert's case and that he was part

579
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 4: of him securing a death sentence against Robert. The other

580
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 4: thing that we did is we started digging into Jack

581
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 4: because we were so surprised by Jack. We didn't understand

582
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 4: where he came from. Just like the trial defense counselor

583
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 4: was shocked by him, so were we. And what do

584
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 4: we do we found a criminal case where he was

585
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 4: the star witness. And in that case, Jack alleged that

586
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,239
Speaker 4: someoneknocked on his door, he was covered in blood, This

587
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 4: person entered his hotel room that he helped him dispose

588
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 4: of the clothes that were covered in blood. And then,

589
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 4: as it turned out, this person was charged with capital murder.

590
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 4: And so Jack, who at minimum could have been an

591
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 4: accessory after the fact in this case, is not charged

592
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 4: at all. He becomes a star witness in this other case,

593
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 4: and he pops up in Robert's case, and Robert has

594
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 4: no idea who this is. There are no police reports

595
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 4: connecting Jack to this case, and all of a sudden

596
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 4: it becomes very clear that Jack is a plant. Right,

597
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 4: Jack is inserted into this case on the eve of

598
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 4: Robert's trial.

599
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 2: Susan, what did you learn about that bitemark after all

600
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 2: these years.

601
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 4: So one of the things that we did during the

602
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 4: reinvestigation was we submitted all of the materials, we had photographs,

603
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 4: testimony about the bitemark evidence to doctor Adam Freeman, who

604
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 4: is a board certified forensic coodeontologist and dentist, and he

605
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 4: examined all those materials and he made a number of

606
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 4: conclusions about both the evidence collection and the pattern injury itself.

607
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 4: So first, he concluded that the way that people's denticians

608
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 4: were collected using that beeswax was an improper way to

609
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 4: collect to obtain denticians. He evaluated the pattern injury on

610
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 4: the victim's cheek and specifically he was looking at measurements

611
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 4: and concluded that this was way too big to be

612
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 4: a human bitemark. So ultimately we found out that this

613
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 4: was not a bite mark at all. And one of

614
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 4: the things that I think is really important here is

615
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 4: that the victim was beaten so severely in the face

616
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 4: that this may have actually been from the boards. The

617
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 4: severe damage that she suffered, maybe one of the boards

618
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 4: left an injury that appeared to be the pattern injury

619
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 4: that the dentist obviously assumed was the bitemark, but this

620
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 4: in fact was not a bitemark on the victim at all.

621
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really want to get into this part of it.

622
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 2: So you're dealing with the thirteenth circuit in Florida, Can

623
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 2: you just talk about these conviction integatory view units and

624
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 2: how important they were to this particular case.

625
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 4: Conviction integrity units, sometimes also called conviction review units, are

626
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 4: specialized units within prosecutors' offices that are supposed to look

627
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,240
Speaker 4: at cases where an individual is factually innocent and reinvestigate.

628
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,439
Speaker 4: They're really important units that allow for prosecutors not only

629
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 4: to correct wrongful convictions, but also prevent them by implementing

630
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 4: policies that they realize are important in order to prevent

631
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 4: wrongful convictions in the future and have implement those policies

632
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 4: in their offices. And so after I did as much

633
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 4: investigating as I possibly could on Claude, Butler and Jack

634
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 4: and obtained all of the records that I could from

635
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 4: the police department, I put together a memo to Teresa Hall,

636
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 4: who was the chief at the time, the chief of

637
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 4: the Conviction Review Unit, and I put forward all the

638
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 4: evidence I had that made me suspicious about the conviction,

639
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 4: the reasons why I thought that Butler and Jack didn't

640
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 4: have any credibility, and then I put forward an investigation

641
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 4: plan and asked her to join me in read investigating

642
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,399
Speaker 4: this case. And so that was my pitch to her,

643
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 4: and then very quickly she came back to me and

644
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 4: we started our joint reinvestigation. But the timing was tough

645
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 4: because it was March of twenty twenty, and we all

646
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 4: remember what happened in March of twenty twenty, the world

647
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 4: shut down as a result of the COVID nineteen pandemic.

648
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 4: But to her credit, we pushed through and we continued

649
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 4: to investigate, and we got a lot done despite the

650
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 4: fact that we were all working remotely right.

651
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 2: And do you recall a moment where, you know, maybe

652
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 2: Teresa Hall sent you an email or called you on

653
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 2: the phone and said, we're going forward with this, this

654
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 2: is we're going to move on. This was there at

655
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 2: one of those moments.

656
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,399
Speaker 4: Well, I think there were two moments that stand out

657
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 4: to me. One was Teresa emailing me and accepting the case.

658
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 4: The second was when she called me and said, I

659
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 4: think we may have vaginal swabs from the victim's rape kit,

660
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,320
Speaker 4: which blew my mind because there was an entire hearing

661
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 4: about the fact that all of the evidence was destroyed,

662
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 4: but she got a tip that there may still be

663
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 4: swabs from the victim's rape kit at the medical examiner's office.

664
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 4: I knew that the DNA was going to be a

665
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 4: game changer, so when she called me and told me

666
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 4: she thought there was even a slight possibility that this

667
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 4: vaginal swab was still available. That was huge for us.

668
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 2: And Robert, what was it like for you getting all

669
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 2: this news all of a sudden?

670
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,280
Speaker 3: She told me, you know, they did the DNA test

671
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 3: and not only did they exclude you, but they also

672
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 3: put it into codis and found a match. So I

673
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 3: was like floored by all this. And she says you

674
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 3: would be free by Thursday morning.

675
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 2: And what was the reaction on the phone, Robert, what

676
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 2: did that feel like?

677
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 3: No, it was very special. I was very thankful for

678
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 3: all of them. I've always told everybody I didn't do it,

679
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 3: you know, and you know, you would get some responses

680
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 3: such as, yeah, everybody says that, But I say, yeah,

681
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 3: but everybody ain't telling you the truth. I said, I

682
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 3: really am innocent. So I've had a lot of staff

683
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,760
Speaker 3: members from the prison contact me when I got out

684
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 3: and they said, you know, you always said you were

685
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,720
Speaker 3: in this and we always knew there was something different

686
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,720
Speaker 3: about you, you know. So they still stay in touch.

687
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 2: And so you were given your date of freedom. Was

688
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 2: it the next day or it was Thursday? Was on Thursday?

689
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 3: Yeah? Her birthday. Oh that's a great birthday.

690
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 2: Yep, that's really nice present. All right, What was it

691
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 2: like being free, finally walking out of there.

692
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 3: Oh? Man, it's undescribable, you know, to actually walk out

693
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 3: of that prison and know that that was it. The

694
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 3: nightmare is finally over.

695
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,760
Speaker 2: Robert. What has it been like since your release?

696
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 3: Oh, it's been very challenging. Remember nineteen eighty three, I

697
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 3: went into a world I didn't know, and then in

698
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 3: twenty twenty, I come back into another world that I

699
00:38:55,320 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 3: don't know anymore. You know, modern technology, cell phone, never

700
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 3: seen one home depot, Walmart, all the different restaurants. Now

701
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 3: there's just self checkout, as Susan and I became accustomed

702
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 3: with together. It was pretty exciting. It's it's been it's

703
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 3: been an adventure.

704
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 2: Just coming out of prison during a pandemic. Not only

705
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 2: are you having to adjust to, you know, decades that

706
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 2: have passed by while you were in prison, but now

707
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 2: you're coming out during a pandemic. What was that like

708
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 2: for you?

709
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 3: Yeah? It was that was challenging as well, because you know,

710
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 3: everywhere you went required a face mask, and you know,

711
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 3: it's like when I was walking by an armored car

712
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 3: wearing a face mask, I'm like, if I would have

713
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 3: done this in nineteen eighty three, they would have shot me.

714
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,879
Speaker 3: So then I found out, you know, there are obstacles,

715
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 3: of course. So my goal when I got out was

716
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 3: to get my voter registration car, to get my passport

717
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 3: which I've never had one, which I thank god, to

718
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 3: get my license. So I went over there with a

719
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty three expired license to get it renewed. It

720
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 3: was pretty exciting to see in their face trying to

721
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 3: figure out how I'm bringing nineteen eighty three license to

722
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 3: have a renewed right, You've been.

723
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 2: Driving this whole time?

724
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:20,479
Speaker 3: Yep.

725
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 2: Actually, Susan, let me ask what has been the challenge here.

726
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,720
Speaker 2: Robert was not eligible for compensation from the state after

727
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 2: this exoneration. Can you talk about that? Yeah?

728
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,839
Speaker 4: So, you know, I think that people see an exoneration

729
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 4: and it's so beautiful and it's so joyful, and they

730
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 4: believe that this is the end of the journey. But

731
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 4: this is just the beginning of the next part of

732
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 4: an individual's journey, where they have to heal from the

733
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 4: trauma that they have suffered from their wrongful conviction. And

734
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 4: although no amount of money will ever make anyone whole,

735
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 4: certainly compensation goes a long way at helping someone get

736
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 4: on their feet, get a job right, feel some sense

737
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 4: of security. And in Florida currently there is a there

738
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 4: is a bill pending to fix Florida's compensation statute. So

739
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 4: right now, the statute in Florida prevents anyone who had

740
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 4: any prior convictions compensation. And so Robert, when he was

741
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 4: a teenager, he had two minor nonviolent felony convictions and

742
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,760
Speaker 4: now because of that, he is completely barred from seeking

743
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,439
Speaker 4: compensation through the Florida compensation scheme, even though he spent

744
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 4: thirty seven years wrongfully incarcerated, including three years on death row.

745
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 2: Right, and these charges had nothing to do with the

746
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 2: crime that he was accused of. It was something from

747
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 2: his teenage years, correct, So look at you. The call

748
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 2: to action, Susan, I'll start with you. Is there anything

749
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 2: that you know our audience who's listening to this, who's

750
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 2: just outraged by these kinds of stories, anything that you

751
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,800
Speaker 2: know they any specific issues that you feel need changing

752
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 2: and that we can help as audience members listening to this.

753
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 4: Thanks for asking about that, Gilbert. So I am going

754
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,919
Speaker 4: to urge the audience if they want to learn more

755
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 4: about how they can help us fix Florida's compensation statute.

756
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 4: They should go to the Innocence Project web PAGs to

757
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 4: learn how they can join us in calling on the

758
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 4: Florida State legislature to finally fix the broken compensation statute

759
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 4: in Florida. There right now is a bill that is

760
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 4: pending that would make two critical changes, One that would

761
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:23,439
Speaker 4: allow individuals with prior convictions to see compensation, and two

762
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 4: that would extend the very tight deadline that they had

763
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,919
Speaker 4: that Florida currently has of ninety days for a person

764
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 4: who's been exonerated to file their request for compensation. So

765
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 4: again I urge everyone to head over to the Innocence

766
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 4: Project website and learn how they can support xoneries in

767
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 4: Florida finally receive the compensation that they are entitled to.

768
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 2: And Robert, is there anything from your point of view

769
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 2: that could make life easier for recent exoneries.

770
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 3: The most challenging thing is like for me, when I

771
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 3: went to a bank to open a bank account, or

772
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 3: when I try to get an apartment or even try

773
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 3: to get a job. I have no history, so they're

774
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 3: looking at me like I'm an alien. Where did I

775
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,760
Speaker 3: come from? You know, what was your past employment? Prison?

776
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 3: What was your past resident prison, you know, so you

777
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 3: don't want to tell this to your new employers or

778
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 3: to a bank or whoever. So you know, you just

779
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 3: have to kind of explain the story. And this is

780
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 3: why I don't have a history.

781
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 2: I'm going to enter the closing argument phase of this

782
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 2: conversation today, and I think I'm going to start with Susan. Susan,

783
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 2: I'm just going to give you the floor here. What

784
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 2: do you want to say about your work with Robert

785
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 2: and how the importance of what the Innocence Project does

786
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 2: the importance of what the public can do in order

787
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 2: to not only bring justice to these gross injustices, but

788
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:52,720
Speaker 2: also to prevent them from happening again.

789
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 4: The Innocence Project just had its thirtieth anniversary in August,

790
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 4: and over these last thirty years, we have learned so much,

791
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,240
Speaker 4: such about the criminal legal system and the significant flaws

792
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 4: that we have that lead to wrongful convictions and also

793
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 4: that just lead to unfair trials that bio late people's

794
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 4: constitutional rights. There is a role for every single person

795
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 4: in correcting and preventing wrongful convictions and preventing just injustice

796
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 4: in the criminal legal system. I would urge people to

797
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 4: see what issues are impacting your communities, and get out

798
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 4: there and vote. We don't endorse anybody, but certainly get

799
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 4: out there, educate yourself and understand the issues, because every

800
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 4: single citizen has a role to play in correcting our very,

801
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 4: very flawed criminal legal system.

802
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:37,919
Speaker 2: Well, I really want to thank you because I learned

803
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 2: so much just listening to you today about the Florida

804
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 2: justice system, and so I really am grateful for that.

805
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 2: So thank you. And Robert will give you the closing argument,

806
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 2: the real closing argument here. Anything you want to talk about,

807
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 2: it's all yours.

808
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 3: I'm just happy to be with my family. And my

809
00:44:56,080 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 3: goal really is to tell people that, you know, if

810
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 3: they support the Innocence Project in this I'm not the

811
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,359
Speaker 3: only one. There's still others in there, you know, and

812
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 3: they need help. They're in the same predicament I was

813
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 3: when I was begging for help. You know. They just

814
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 3: don't see an out, you know, and without the Innocence

815
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 3: Project and people like Susan, you know, they have no hope.

816
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host,

817
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 2: Gilbert King. I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason

818
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 2: Flamm and Kevin Wurdis. The senior producer for this episode

819
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 2: is Jackie Pauley, and our producers are Lyla Robinson and

820
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 2: Jeff Cliburn. Our editor is Roxandra Guidy. The music in

821
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 2: this production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

822
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 2: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

823
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 2: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at

824
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 2: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good on

825
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:13,320
Speaker 2: all three platforms. If you're interested in more wrongful conviction

826
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,320
Speaker 2: stories in Florida, check out my new nine parts series

827
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 2: Bone Valley. The podcast investigates the case of Leo Schofield,

828
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 2: a young man accused of murdering his wife in nineteen

829
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,280
Speaker 2: eighty seven and who has been in prison ever since,

830
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 2: despite his unwavering claims of innocence. Subscribe to Bone Valley

831
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts. You can find more information

832
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 2: at Lava for Good dot com. Wrongful Conviction is a

833
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:42,280
Speaker 2: production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal

834
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 2: Company Number one.

835
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 1: Next week, on the guest hosted episodes of Wrongful Conviction,

836
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 1: investigative reporter Beth Shelburne, We'll talk with Jeffrey Hollman about

837
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,919
Speaker 1: the Alabama criminal justice system and Jeffery's experience of being

838
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: incarcerated for ten years for a crime he did not commit.

839
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 1: They'll talk about the crime, Jeffrey's time in prison, and

840
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: the extremely rare pro se motions Jeffrey filed that eventually

841
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: led to his release. Beth Shelburne is an Alabama native

842
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 1: and a veteran journalist who has spent her career focused

843
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:22,879
Speaker 1: on the criminal justice system and the issue of mass incarceration,

844
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 1: and this conversation will touch on many of the issues

845
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:30,320
Speaker 1: she's covered in her work. Listen next Monday in the

846
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction podcast Feed