WEBVTT - #566 Maggie Freleng with Josh Burns

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<v Speaker 1>On March fifteenth, twenty fourteen, Josh Burns was at home

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<v Speaker 1>in Brighton, Michigan, with his newborn daughter, Naomi. His wife,

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<v Speaker 1>Brenda was out getting her first haircut after becoming a mom.

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<v Speaker 2>I got Naomi up from her nap and I'm feeding

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<v Speaker 2>her a bottle and Brenda had called my cell phone

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<v Speaker 2>and there was a coffee table in front of us.

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<v Speaker 2>When I went to put the phone down, I felt

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<v Speaker 2>Naomi sliding forward off my knee, like about to do

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<v Speaker 2>a header into the coffee table. So I like reached

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<v Speaker 2>out my hand and kind of had to catch her

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<v Speaker 2>by her face and like propped her back up. She

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<v Speaker 2>had like a little scratch on her cheek because I

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<v Speaker 2>had to grab her. So then Brenda gets home and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I almost dropped Naomi. So she looks Naomi over.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, she's a nurse, and Naomi was normal, she

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<v Speaker 2>didn't even really cry from the event.

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<v Speaker 1>But over the following days, Naomi was pale, lethargic, and nauseous,

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<v Speaker 1>making several trips back and forth to the emergency room. Ultimately,

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<v Speaker 1>when at home, she went limp, struggled to breathe, and

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<v Speaker 1>Josh he called nine to one one.

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<v Speaker 2>They were using an infant CPR breathing bag on Naomi,

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<v Speaker 2>and we had to stop at a fire station and

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<v Speaker 2>pick up a fire paramedic to assist the paramedic in

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<v Speaker 2>the back. And they were doing like ninety miles an

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<v Speaker 2>hour down the freeway and wow, I still have nionmares

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<v Speaker 2>about it. And we got to the pediatric er and

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<v Speaker 2>they had been looking into all these different things, and

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<v Speaker 2>then they came and they did a bedside eye exam

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<v Speaker 2>of Naomi and they found retinal hemorrhages in the backs

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<v Speaker 2>of her eyes. Next thing we knew, there's a child

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<v Speaker 2>abuse pediatrician in the room. And when the CPS worker

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<v Speaker 2>came and interviewed us, he told us he said, well,

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<v Speaker 2>the child abuse pediatrician says that this is shaken baby syndrome,

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<v Speaker 2>and we're like what. From this point on, they started

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<v Speaker 2>treating us both like criminals. I'm Josh Burns. I was

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<v Speaker 2>wrongfully convicted, spent a year incarcerated, and it took just

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<v Speaker 2>over ten years to be exonerated and declared innocent.

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<v Speaker 1>From Love of for Good. This is wrongful conviction with

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<v Speaker 1>Maggie Freeling today, Josh Burns.

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<v Speaker 2>I grew up in Colorado on the front range of

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<v Speaker 2>the Rockies Colorado Springs. Have an older brother and a

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<v Speaker 2>younger sister. So I'm that typical crazy middle kid. I

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<v Speaker 2>had a great family upbringing. My parents are still married

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<v Speaker 2>almost for fifty four years now.

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<v Speaker 1>So you said you were kind of the crazy middle child.

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<v Speaker 2>What does that mean? So? I was always a joke

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<v Speaker 2>in a prankster, still kind of am. For instance, in school,

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<v Speaker 2>I had a Spanish teacher. He had just arrived from

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<v Speaker 2>Peru and he spoke English. But I arrived to the

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<v Speaker 2>class late, and my last name is Burns. So he said,

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<v Speaker 2>what's your name? And I said, I'm Sideburns and he

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<v Speaker 2>said Side and he wrote my name down and everyone

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<v Speaker 2>in the class knew I was Josh. And about two

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<v Speaker 2>months later, my parents showed up for parent teacher conferences

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<v Speaker 2>and he said, we need to talk about your son's

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<v Speaker 2>side and they said who you know?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh that went on for a minute.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow yeah yeah. So and my dad, my dad and

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<v Speaker 2>mom came home and my dad was trying to like

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<v Speaker 2>get serious with me and tell me how I was

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<v Speaker 2>disrespecting my elders, but he just started cracking up laughing, goes,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know where you come up with this stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. So the joke was out and he made

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<v Speaker 2>me stand up in front of the class on Monday.

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<v Speaker 1>Perhaps being called out helped Josh focus on his aspirations

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<v Speaker 1>besides class clown.

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<v Speaker 2>I just had a fascination from the age of five

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<v Speaker 2>with airplanes and flying, and just was one of those

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<v Speaker 2>kids who always knew that I wanted to be a pilot. Wow,

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<v Speaker 2>and that dream came true. I went to flight school,

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<v Speaker 2>built up my flight hours doing crazy things like flying

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<v Speaker 2>skydivers and Grand Canyon tour flights from Las Vegas, all

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<v Speaker 2>those will fly for food jobs, basically to build your

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<v Speaker 2>time so you can get on with an airline. And

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<v Speaker 2>then got on with the airlines and spent over twenty

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<v Speaker 2>five years as an airline pilot. I'm still in the

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<v Speaker 2>industry now. I trained pilots for a major airline here

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<v Speaker 2>in Texas.

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<v Speaker 1>But before living in Texas, Josh and his wife Brenda

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<v Speaker 1>met in the early two thousands serving in a ministry

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<v Speaker 1>for young adults with substance abuse issues and eating disorders.

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<v Speaker 1>They fell in love, got married, and settled down in Michigan. Eventually,

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<v Speaker 1>Brenda became pregnant with their daughter, Naomi.

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<v Speaker 2>I remember her taking the test and we were just

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<v Speaker 2>so excited, and then we went in for that ultrasound.

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<v Speaker 2>Remember in the ultrasound, she did like a summersault, She

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<v Speaker 2>like did a full She looked like an astronaut in

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<v Speaker 2>zero gravity. So everything was trucking along just fine. And

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<v Speaker 2>then Brenda was about a week overdue and we went

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<v Speaker 2>in to visit the doctor and he said, I can

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<v Speaker 2>do some things here to speed things along, and Brenda said,

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<v Speaker 2>let's do it, because I feel like I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>explode and this kid's on my bladder and I have

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<v Speaker 2>to pee every two minutes, you know. So about six

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<v Speaker 2>hours after he did his procedure, Brenda's water broke and

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<v Speaker 2>we were on our way to the hospital in a

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<v Speaker 2>snowstorm in Michigan. So yeah, we drove to the hospital

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<v Speaker 2>and they got her right into the room, but she

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<v Speaker 2>pushed for hours and hours and Naomi's head became stuck

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<v Speaker 2>and it was scary because the doctor said, hey, we

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<v Speaker 2>can try what's called a vacuum extraction. We can put

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<v Speaker 2>this device on her head and try to get her

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<v Speaker 2>head dislodge and moving through. So they tried that about

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<v Speaker 2>three times that it failed, and then they said, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>we need to move into an emergency sea section.

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<v Speaker 1>At this point, we should mention that one of the

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<v Speaker 1>risks of a vacuum assisted delivery is intracrinial hemorrhage and

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<v Speaker 1>subgalio hematoma, which are among the so called triad of

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<v Speaker 1>findings associated with the debunk hypothesis known as shaken baby syndrome.

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<v Speaker 1>And they attempted the vacuum assisted birth three times before

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<v Speaker 1>moving onto a sasarean section in which she was pulled

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<v Speaker 1>in the opposite direction. But finally Naomi was born January seventh,

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<v Speaker 1>twenty fourteen.

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<v Speaker 2>Finally Naomi was out and we heard her cry and

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<v Speaker 2>we just started pauling, you know. I was like, there

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<v Speaker 2>she is, there she is. And they cleaned Naomi up

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<v Speaker 2>and handed her to me, and I was able to

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<v Speaker 2>put her face to face with mommy, and it was

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<v Speaker 2>just it was amazing. So I was home for the

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<v Speaker 2>first two months on family leave, so I was able

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<v Speaker 2>to just be home and be present and make that

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<v Speaker 2>bond with her and see her smile for the first time,

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<v Speaker 2>like all those milestones, and it was an incredible time.

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<v Speaker 2>Naomi was struggling though my wife was trying to breastfeed,

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<v Speaker 2>and she was sleepy and lethargic. She wouldn't latch to

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<v Speaker 2>my wife's breast well, and my wife ended up having

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<v Speaker 2>to pump breast milk and then we would defeed her

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<v Speaker 2>breast milk through the bottle whatever we could. But Naomi

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<v Speaker 2>actually lost some weight since birth, and we kept going

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<v Speaker 2>back to the pediatrician and they were like, yeah, this

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<v Speaker 2>can happen with these kind of deliveries.

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<v Speaker 1>In all likelihood, Naomi's issues began during her delivery and

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<v Speaker 1>came to a head about nine or ten weeks later

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<v Speaker 1>in the lead up to her baptism, right around when

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<v Speaker 1>Josh's paternity leave wrapped up.

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<v Speaker 2>I had just gone back and finished my first four

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<v Speaker 2>day trip back at the airline, so it was like

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<v Speaker 2>Brenda's first four days alone with Naomi without me from

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<v Speaker 2>being on family leave. So she's like, I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>the salon. I need a haircut before the baptism. And

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<v Speaker 2>it was like you go. She said, all right, when

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<v Speaker 2>Naomi wakes up, feed her this bottle. So I got

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<v Speaker 2>Naomi up from her nap and I'm feeding her a

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<v Speaker 2>bottle and Brenda had called my cell phone for something,

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<v Speaker 2>and when I went to put the phone down, I

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<v Speaker 2>felt like Naomi sliding forward off my knee, and there

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<v Speaker 2>was a coffee table in front of us, so I

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<v Speaker 2>like reached out my hand and she was like heading

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<v Speaker 2>towards the coffee table, like about to do a header.

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<v Speaker 2>So I had to catch her by her face and

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<v Speaker 2>propped her back up. She had the little scratch on

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<v Speaker 2>her cheek because I had to grab her. So then

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<v Speaker 2>Brenda gets home and I'm like, I almost dropped Naomi.

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<v Speaker 2>So she looks Naomi over. She's a nurse, and Naomi

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<v Speaker 2>was normal. She didn't even really cry from the event.

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<v Speaker 1>This event or non event, is what Josh had to

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<v Speaker 1>think back to when Child Protective Services eventually came asking

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<v Speaker 1>him what he'd done to her, of course, assuming with

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<v Speaker 1>support from the medical community, that Naomi had been abused.

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<v Speaker 1>But we're getting ahead of ourselves.

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<v Speaker 2>Naomi's baptism, we got her dressed and ready to go,

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<v Speaker 2>and we get to church and she's in her car

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<v Speaker 2>seat carrier, and all of a sudden, we looked over

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<v Speaker 2>and she was like pale, and she projectile vomited, and

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<v Speaker 2>we're like, oh my gosh, Like we get her cleaned up,

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<v Speaker 2>and we noticed that she like quickly regained her color.

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<v Speaker 2>And we were like, do we need to cancel the baptism?

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<v Speaker 2>But we were like maybe something disagreed with her or

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<v Speaker 2>but she seemed okay after that, so we had the baptism,

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<v Speaker 2>and then when we fed her again, she projectile vomited again.

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<v Speaker 2>So now we're like, okay, we got a problem here.

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<v Speaker 2>So Brenda called the on call pediatrician and told them

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<v Speaker 2>what was going on, and they said, you could feed

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<v Speaker 2>her a few more times and see what happens, or

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<v Speaker 2>you can take her to the pediatric ar. And we're

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<v Speaker 2>like first time parents, We're like, we're taking her in.

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<v Speaker 2>So we took her into the er, talked to the doctor,

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<v Speaker 2>told him even about like how I almost dropped her

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<v Speaker 2>the day before. He said, this sounds like a stomach

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<v Speaker 2>bug or a virus. Ransom tests and said, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>see anything of concern, but we can't test for everything.

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<v Speaker 2>This could just be a stomach bug. Send us home,

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<v Speaker 2>and said, just feed her again and see what happens.

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<v Speaker 2>So she just starts projectile vomiting again. We're in and

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<v Speaker 2>out of the pediatric ar three times, in her pediatrician's

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<v Speaker 2>office once and they just keep telling us that it's

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<v Speaker 2>a stomach bug. And then finally day three of this,

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<v Speaker 2>Naomi goes limp and her eyes roll back in her

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<v Speaker 2>head and her breathing becomes labored. So I call nine

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<v Speaker 2>one one and the ambulance comes and they could see

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<v Speaker 2>like that Naomi needed immediate care. We get in the

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<v Speaker 2>ambulance and there's this partition where Brenda can look back.

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<v Speaker 2>We're locking eyes and I'm trying to give her this

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<v Speaker 2>look like it's okay. But you know how it is

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<v Speaker 2>when you know your partner, your spouse. It's like she

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<v Speaker 2>knew they were using an infant CPR breathing bag on Naomi.

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<v Speaker 2>We had to stop at a fire station and pick

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<v Speaker 2>up a fire paramedic to assist the paramedic in the back,

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<v Speaker 2>and they were doing like ninety miles an hour down

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<v Speaker 2>the freeway, and.

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<v Speaker 3>I just I still have nightmares about it.

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<v Speaker 2>As a dad, I just felt completely helpless. I cried

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<v Speaker 2>out to God and I just said, please work through

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<v Speaker 2>these paramedics' hands and just give everyone wisdom to help Naomi.

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<v Speaker 2>We got to the pediatric er and they quickly moved

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<v Speaker 2>Naomi up to the pediatric ICU. They had to intubate

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<v Speaker 2>her with a breathing tube and We told them all

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<v Speaker 2>the history and they just said, once again, gosh, this

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<v Speaker 2>sounds like virus of some sort.

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<v Speaker 1>And their instincts could have been right. In addition to shortfalls,

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<v Speaker 1>there are over eighty medical issues that can cause the

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<v Speaker 1>cluster of findings formally associated with the now defunct hypothesis

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<v Speaker 1>known as shaken baby syndrome. To recap previous coverage, in England,

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen seventy one, doctor Norman Guthkelch, a pediatric neurosurgeon, was

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<v Speaker 1>seeing deceased infants and toddlers that presented with unexplainable brain

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<v Speaker 1>swelling and bleeding, as well as retinal bleeding, opining that

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<v Speaker 1>perhaps folks were shaking their children to break a crying

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<v Speaker 1>spell or tantrum and accidentally causing these potentially fatal findings.

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<v Speaker 1>But unable to test this hypothesis, and seemingly out of

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<v Speaker 1>an abundance of caution, newly educated doctors were taught the

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<v Speaker 1>hypothesis as a theory until proven otherwise, which led to

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<v Speaker 1>the diagnosis of abuse, followed by criminal charges for parents

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<v Speaker 1>like Brenda and Josh.

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<v Speaker 2>They had been looking into all these different things. They

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<v Speaker 2>had done MRIs. They did two spinal taps on Naomi

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<v Speaker 2>cat scans, and then they came and they did a

0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:14.280
<v Speaker 2>bedside eye exam of Naomi and they found retinal hemorrhages

0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:17.560
<v Speaker 2>in the backs of her eyes. And that's when everything changed,

0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:20.080
<v Speaker 2>all of a sudden, The main I see you doctor

0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:23.280
<v Speaker 2>comes into the room and he says, retinal hemorrhages are

0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:25.800
<v Speaker 2>typically a sign of child abuse and we have to

0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:29.440
<v Speaker 2>consult with the child abuse pediatrician in the child protection

0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:32.640
<v Speaker 2>team and get them involved. Next thing we knew, there's

0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:36.839
<v Speaker 2>a child abuse pediatrician in the room and she looks

0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:40.480
<v Speaker 2>at Naomi. She doesn't really treat Naomi, she just looks

0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:42.880
<v Speaker 2>her over bedside, and then she turns to my wife

0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.720
<v Speaker 2>and I and says, I need to interview you both

0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:50.040
<v Speaker 2>but separately. And we're like sure, we were completely naive.

0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:53.360
<v Speaker 2>We're like, yes, let's get this cleared up, let's talk

0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:55.960
<v Speaker 2>through this and explain it to her. But after the interview,

0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.920
<v Speaker 2>we realized, like that she's calling Child Protective Services law enforce.

0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:03.760
<v Speaker 2>The child abuse pediatrician diedn't even tell us. When the

0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:06.720
<v Speaker 2>CPS worker came and interviewed us, he told us he

0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:10.440
<v Speaker 2>said the child abuse pediatrician says that this is shaken

0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:15.600
<v Speaker 2>baby syndrome, and we're like what, We're just floored we're

0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:19.600
<v Speaker 2>being accused of child abuse. From this point on, they

0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:23.320
<v Speaker 2>started treating us both like criminals. They said, you guys

0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:25.800
<v Speaker 2>can't stay the night in the hospital anymore. You can't

0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:28.040
<v Speaker 2>be alone with your daughter in the room. You have

0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:30.680
<v Speaker 2>to have like witnesses in the room with you. All

0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:33.320
<v Speaker 2>these things. They called it a safety plan, and we

0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:35.440
<v Speaker 2>just said, okay, whatever we have to do. But we

0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:40.800
<v Speaker 2>started looking into retinal hemorrhages and we realized that infants

0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:45.720
<v Speaker 2>from traumatic births like vacuum extraction attempts and see sections

0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:48.520
<v Speaker 2>have retinal hemorrhages. So we bring this up to the

0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:52.560
<v Speaker 2>child abuse pediatrician and she's just dismissing everything. Nope, this

0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:54.040
<v Speaker 2>is all it can be. Nope, this is all it

0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:57.320
<v Speaker 2>can be. And then she tells us, she goes, hey,

0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:00.160
<v Speaker 2>the MRI that your daughter had here in the hospit

0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:04.840
<v Speaker 2>was misread. She also has subdurohematomas, and we said they

0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:07.200
<v Speaker 2>did that MRI to see if it was safe to

0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:10.560
<v Speaker 2>do spinal taps on Naomi. So we're like, wait a minute,

0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:14.000
<v Speaker 2>you tell us read that. Yeah, yeah, I said, you're

0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:17.720
<v Speaker 2>telling me they misread an MRI and then did two

0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.800
<v Speaker 2>spinal taps on my daughter off a misread MRI and

0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:24.440
<v Speaker 2>she says she admitted it. She goes, yeah, the doctors

0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.040
<v Speaker 2>involved in that, I told them to call risk management.

0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:30.840
<v Speaker 2>They're the attorneys for the hospital. So we knew at

0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:33.600
<v Speaker 2>this point, like we need an attorney. We're in a

0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:37.000
<v Speaker 2>fight for our lives. It was just a nightmare.

0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:41.680
<v Speaker 1>Thankfully, this story is not the nightmare we're used to

0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:46.320
<v Speaker 1>in SBS cases. On April first, twenty fourteen, Naomi was

0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:50.520
<v Speaker 1>deemed recovered and was released from the hospital. Three days later,

0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:54.200
<v Speaker 1>the director of the hospital's Child Protective Team, doctor Bethany Moore,

0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:58.680
<v Speaker 1>finalized her report that Naomi was the victim of abusive

0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:02.000
<v Speaker 1>head trauma and that Josh was responsible.

0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:06.600
<v Speaker 2>A CPS worker and three police showed up unannounced, and

0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:10.040
<v Speaker 2>the CPS worker said, I have a signed order from

0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:14.160
<v Speaker 2>a judge to remove Naomi from your care. And we

0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:16.760
<v Speaker 2>said where is she going? And he said, none of

0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:21.200
<v Speaker 2>your business. I said, why can't she stay here? Why

0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:23.960
<v Speaker 2>can't she stay with family or friends? You and your

0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:27.000
<v Speaker 2>wife are considered a danger to your daughter, and anyone

0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:30.840
<v Speaker 2>who supports you is considered a danger to your daughter.

0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:34.320
<v Speaker 2>She's going into foster care, I said, with who, and

0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:36.400
<v Speaker 2>he goes you have a court hearing in the morning.

0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:39.720
<v Speaker 2>You'll get more information there, and I'm just again, it

0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:42.400
<v Speaker 2>took me back to those same feelings. In the ambulance,

0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:45.240
<v Speaker 2>I was like, I'm trying to keep my family safe.

0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:48.160
<v Speaker 2>So I loaded up Naomi in her car seat, and

0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:52.280
<v Speaker 2>my wife and I were just bawling, and again I prayed.

0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:56.680
<v Speaker 2>I said keep her safe, God, shine light in this darkness.

0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:01.480
<v Speaker 2>And then this was really difficult because literally, the government

0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:04.439
<v Speaker 2>is taking my child away and I have no idea

0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:08.040
<v Speaker 2>where she's going. So there's this raw party you write

0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:10.840
<v Speaker 2>that is like, how dare you do this to us?

0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:13.919
<v Speaker 2>We didn't do anything. You feel like you want to

0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:17.760
<v Speaker 2>fight for your family, but CPS, from what I've experienced

0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:20.960
<v Speaker 2>with them, they hope that you'll lose it in these

0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:23.760
<v Speaker 2>situations as a dad because they just use it as

0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:26.840
<v Speaker 2>ammunition against you, and I knew, like I have to

0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:30.080
<v Speaker 2>keep it together. We ended up in the family court

0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:33.800
<v Speaker 2>situation and they allowed Brenda three one hour visits a

0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:36.000
<v Speaker 2>week with Naomi and I wasn't allowed to see her

0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:36.399
<v Speaker 2>at all.

0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:40.440
<v Speaker 1>Naomi spent the next seven months in foster care. Well

0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:43.320
<v Speaker 1>the state took Brenda and Josh to civil court for

0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:45.600
<v Speaker 1>jurisdiction over Naomi.

0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:50.000
<v Speaker 2>Brenda was in my corner, but it was really difficult

0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:53.600
<v Speaker 2>for her. Like the prosecutors literally came up to Brenda

0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:57.240
<v Speaker 2>in the hallway and said, divorce Josh and testify against

0:17:57.320 --> 0:17:59.639
<v Speaker 2>him and we'll give you the baby. And they're like,

0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:03.040
<v Speaker 2>use Naomi as a pomp. We didn't realize that in

0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:06.480
<v Speaker 2>the moment, but literally what they were planning to do.

0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:10.040
<v Speaker 2>If Brenda did that, if Brenda just decided, well, I

0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:11.760
<v Speaker 2>don't know, I'm just gonna do whatever I got to

0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:13.959
<v Speaker 2>do to get Naomi home, now, they would have charged

0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:16.800
<v Speaker 2>her with failure to protect and said you lived in

0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:20.160
<v Speaker 2>the same house as your husband and now you admitted

0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:22.960
<v Speaker 2>that he abused her. That would have been game set match.

0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:25.679
<v Speaker 2>We would have never seen Naomi again. My wife just

0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:28.600
<v Speaker 2>she looked at the prosecutor and said, testify against him

0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:29.040
<v Speaker 2>for what.

0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:33.080
<v Speaker 1>Soon the jury in the civil trial negated any leverage

0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:38.280
<v Speaker 1>the state had by awarding the jurisdiction over Naomi to Brenda, and.

0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:40.040
<v Speaker 2>In the day she got her back. I had to

0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:42.120
<v Speaker 2>move out of the family home because I was still

0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:43.359
<v Speaker 2>facing the criminal trial.

0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:46.680
<v Speaker 1>Why are they so determined to get this child away

0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:48.600
<v Speaker 1>from her mother and family.

0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:51.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I have my own opinions about that, and I've

0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:54.440
<v Speaker 2>looked at these issues and I've talked to so many

0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:59.200
<v Speaker 2>parents over the last twelve years, and honestly, I think

0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:02.960
<v Speaker 2>if you follow the money, that's what it's about. When

0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:07.040
<v Speaker 2>you put a child into foster care, that state gets

0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:11.240
<v Speaker 2>more federal funding. The child abuse pediatrician who accused me

0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:15.040
<v Speaker 2>of shaking baby syndrome at the time had a federal

0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:20.600
<v Speaker 2>grant from the US Department of Justice to diagnose abusive

0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:23.800
<v Speaker 2>head trauma, which is the new term for shaking baby syndrome.

0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:28.360
<v Speaker 2>She's the state expert. She was on the payroll for CPS.

0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:32.239
<v Speaker 2>She had grants through CPS. People hear that and they

0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:35.679
<v Speaker 2>probably think this guy's a conspiracy theorist, but I'm sorry.

0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:38.800
<v Speaker 2>I have the documents to prove it. I couldn't tell

0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:41.439
<v Speaker 2>you what their in game strategy is when they do

0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:44.080
<v Speaker 2>this to families, but I just know it's happening and

0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:47.920
<v Speaker 2>there are thousands of parents and caregivers who are going

0:19:47.960 --> 0:20:06.359
<v Speaker 2>through this. It's interesting because the detective and CPS asked

0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:09.480
<v Speaker 2>if I would take a polygraph test, and I said, absolutely,

0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:11.720
<v Speaker 2>sign me up, I have nothing to hide, and then

0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:14.840
<v Speaker 2>once we retained an attorney, we never heard back from

0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:17.640
<v Speaker 2>him on doing it. So my attorney was like, let's

0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:21.080
<v Speaker 2>do a polygraph, and he called, like this guy in Michigan,

0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:24.360
<v Speaker 2>he's the best heated polygraphs for the Michigan State Police.

0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:27.480
<v Speaker 2>And he gave me two polygraphs. I passed him, which

0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:30.400
<v Speaker 2>was no surprise. I had nothing to hide, but as

0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:33.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, those aren't amissible his evidence in court. So

0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:36.600
<v Speaker 2>but my attorney just wanted to give that to all

0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:38.320
<v Speaker 2>these people, like, hey, you asked him to do it,

0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:41.160
<v Speaker 2>here you go, right, But none of that mattered.

0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:45.600
<v Speaker 1>It also didn't seem to matter that by January twenty fifteen,

0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:49.560
<v Speaker 1>shaken baby syndrome had been under heavy scrutiny for over

0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:54.000
<v Speaker 1>a decade, including a biomechanical study that concluded that shaking

0:20:54.119 --> 0:21:00.160
<v Speaker 1>alone does not generate sufficient force to cause subdural hematomas,

0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:03.400
<v Speaker 1>and a necessary force would also cause a spinal injury.

0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:07.639
<v Speaker 1>But similar research and peer reviewed studies were blocked from

0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:10.720
<v Speaker 1>this trial, which made it more of a battle between

0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:13.760
<v Speaker 1>experts from the state who were certain that the retinal

0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:16.720
<v Speaker 1>hemorrhages meant child abuse, and the defense, who said that

0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:20.000
<v Speaker 1>the presence of old and new injuries, illness, and blood

0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:25.280
<v Speaker 1>clotting issues made the retinal hemorrhages an unreliable marker for

0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:26.400
<v Speaker 1>child abuse.

0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:32.159
<v Speaker 2>To fight these cases, it requires attacking junk science with

0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:36.560
<v Speaker 2>real science, and guess what real science puts jurors to sleep,

0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:41.159
<v Speaker 2>and the emotional argument wins the day in these cases.

0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:44.560
<v Speaker 2>It's tragic, but something happened to this child, and that

0:21:44.680 --> 0:21:47.440
<v Speaker 2>just grabs everyone, and you're, yeah, it's tough.

0:21:47.920 --> 0:21:51.440
<v Speaker 1>So despite the defense questioning the state's expert, doctor Moore

0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:55.080
<v Speaker 1>about an email between her and a prestigious optimologist pointing

0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:58.040
<v Speaker 1>to the blood clotting issue as problematic for her conclusion,

0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:01.720
<v Speaker 1>Josh was convicted of second degree child abuse.

0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:06.480
<v Speaker 2>I was facing ten years in prison, and it had

0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:10.119
<v Speaker 2>been covered in the local Detroit news and there were

0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:14.359
<v Speaker 2>over one hundred people outside the courtroom with signs protesting

0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:17.760
<v Speaker 2>for me. There was an outcry. I had airline pilot

0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:21.600
<v Speaker 2>brothers show up in uniform in the courtroom and the

0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:24.600
<v Speaker 2>judge she had to give me a sentence because the

0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:28.960
<v Speaker 2>jury found me guilty, and she took what was called

0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:32.400
<v Speaker 2>a downward departure and gave me the lightest sentence possible

0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:36.280
<v Speaker 2>which was one year in county jail with three years probation.

0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:40.920
<v Speaker 1>Again, this is not our typical nightmare, but even one

0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:44.840
<v Speaker 1>day in prison wrongfully convicted is unacceptable.

0:22:45.359 --> 0:22:48.840
<v Speaker 2>While I was in jail, I was still facing a

0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:53.800
<v Speaker 2>parental rights trial because CPS was still full speed ahead

0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:57.000
<v Speaker 2>trying to terminate my parental rights. So I'm in jail

0:22:57.480 --> 0:23:00.600
<v Speaker 2>and I'm having to have these conversations with Brenda, like, hey,

0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:03.320
<v Speaker 2>they might terminate my print all rights. If that happens,

0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:04.959
<v Speaker 2>you just need to let me go and move on

0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:06.840
<v Speaker 2>with your life, because I'm not going to ask you

0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:11.919
<v Speaker 2>to like, you know, painful phone conversations, you know. But

0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:15.800
<v Speaker 2>it was interesting while I was in jail. We were

0:23:15.840 --> 0:23:19.560
<v Speaker 2>on the Doctor Phil show. He really advocated for us,

0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:21.960
<v Speaker 2>and he brought on a bunch of experts, and my

0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:25.280
<v Speaker 2>wife was in studio. I was on a satellite uplink

0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:30.000
<v Speaker 2>in my orange jumpsuit. Wow jail, And that was interesting,

0:23:30.160 --> 0:23:33.400
<v Speaker 2>especially in jail, because everyone in the jail saw it.

0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:37.080
<v Speaker 2>And I would be like walking down the hallway and

0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:40.560
<v Speaker 2>an inmate would be like, hey, man, you shouldn't be here, bro,

0:23:40.760 --> 0:23:44.000
<v Speaker 2>you got reilroaded. You're going home any day. They all

0:23:44.080 --> 0:23:47.000
<v Speaker 2>knew who I was, and they're like high fiving me,

0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:51.600
<v Speaker 2>and this just this cut dude. He's like sleeved in

0:23:51.680 --> 0:23:54.720
<v Speaker 2>tats and just totally cut. His name was Corey, and

0:23:54.760 --> 0:23:56.440
<v Speaker 2>he comes up to me and he goes, hey, man,

0:23:56.840 --> 0:23:59.359
<v Speaker 2>I I'm here because I screwed up. He said, I

0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:03.240
<v Speaker 2>have somes and I like have stolen for it and everything.

0:24:03.280 --> 0:24:06.320
<v Speaker 2>But he goes, man, I watched you on that show

0:24:06.359 --> 0:24:09.680
<v Speaker 2>and he said, if anybody so as much just look

0:24:09.720 --> 0:24:11.920
<v Speaker 2>see you wrong, I'm going to rip them apart. I'm

0:24:11.960 --> 0:24:14.240
<v Speaker 2>just like, whoa buddy, Uh, thank you. But it was

0:24:14.320 --> 0:24:17.560
<v Speaker 2>just like even deputies and guards were coming up to

0:24:17.600 --> 0:24:20.640
<v Speaker 2>me privately and like saying, hey man, you shouldn't be here,

0:24:21.040 --> 0:24:22.720
<v Speaker 2>Like what, how did all this happen?

0:24:22.920 --> 0:24:25.440
<v Speaker 1>Did you recognize that you had a lot of support

0:24:25.480 --> 0:24:26.840
<v Speaker 1>that a lot of people didn't have.

0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:30.320
<v Speaker 2>Was that somethinger aware of? Absolutely? Like I could see

0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:34.320
<v Speaker 2>I was facing that parental rights trial. First off, the

0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:39.000
<v Speaker 2>prosecutor backed off. They were supposed to represent CPS as

0:24:39.080 --> 0:24:42.040
<v Speaker 2>the attorneys, and when the Doctor Phil's show came out,

0:24:42.080 --> 0:24:44.720
<v Speaker 2>they backed off and said we're not touching this. And

0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:48.520
<v Speaker 2>CPS had to hire outside council for my parental rights trial.

0:24:48.640 --> 0:24:51.359
<v Speaker 2>And then the judge was in the same posture, like

0:24:51.440 --> 0:24:55.560
<v Speaker 2>she defended me then and upheld my parental rights. So

0:24:55.680 --> 0:24:57.359
<v Speaker 2>I knew when I got out we were going to

0:24:57.400 --> 0:24:59.720
<v Speaker 2>be putting what's called a family reunification plan.

0:25:00.480 --> 0:25:03.640
<v Speaker 1>Meanwhile, the Michigan Innocence Clinic picked up his appellate case

0:25:03.680 --> 0:25:07.600
<v Speaker 1>in September twenty fifteen, arguing that the States case was

0:25:07.640 --> 0:25:11.479
<v Speaker 1>based on junk science and that Josh deserved a new trial.

0:25:12.080 --> 0:25:15.000
<v Speaker 1>But since Josh's defense put on experts who argued this

0:25:15.119 --> 0:25:18.080
<v Speaker 1>at trial, it was decided that he had received a

0:25:18.119 --> 0:25:21.439
<v Speaker 1>fair trial, so the motion was denied. By then, his

0:25:21.560 --> 0:25:22.480
<v Speaker 1>jail time was up.

0:25:22.880 --> 0:25:25.680
<v Speaker 2>I get released from jail and I still can't come home.

0:25:26.160 --> 0:25:29.560
<v Speaker 2>It's like I gotta go stay with friends. But I

0:25:29.680 --> 0:25:33.560
<v Speaker 2>was still super excited because the next morning I was

0:25:33.600 --> 0:25:35.640
<v Speaker 2>going to get to see Naomi and I hadn't seen

0:25:35.680 --> 0:25:39.280
<v Speaker 2>her for almost two years. Seeing her and holding her

0:25:39.320 --> 0:25:41.560
<v Speaker 2>again for the first time, it was just like, oh my,

0:25:42.680 --> 0:25:43.680
<v Speaker 2>it was amazing.

0:25:43.960 --> 0:25:46.200
<v Speaker 1>Just was she walking? Did she run into your are?

0:25:47.720 --> 0:25:50.719
<v Speaker 2>She was too, so she was two years old. I

0:25:50.760 --> 0:25:54.199
<v Speaker 2>lost all that time with her. And they had a

0:25:54.200 --> 0:25:57.200
<v Speaker 2>social worker who helped work with me on this, and

0:25:57.240 --> 0:26:01.879
<v Speaker 2>like she said, you have to guard your expectations. She

0:26:01.920 --> 0:26:04.840
<v Speaker 2>doesn't know you anymore, like she sees pictures of you.

0:26:05.119 --> 0:26:06.720
<v Speaker 2>So it took a little bit of time, Like she

0:26:06.760 --> 0:26:08.480
<v Speaker 2>would let me hold her and everything, but I could

0:26:08.520 --> 0:26:10.800
<v Speaker 2>see her like looking at me, like what's your deal?

0:26:10.840 --> 0:26:12.960
<v Speaker 2>Where have you been? But man, I just soaked it

0:26:13.040 --> 0:26:14.760
<v Speaker 2>up and took what I could get and it didn't

0:26:14.800 --> 0:26:19.160
<v Speaker 2>take long. And my wife was just incredible during this process.

0:26:19.359 --> 0:26:22.680
<v Speaker 2>She just knew and believed in me and stuck by

0:26:22.720 --> 0:26:23.280
<v Speaker 2>my side.

0:26:23.640 --> 0:26:26.240
<v Speaker 1>That's amazing. She just sounds like an amazing woman.

0:26:26.800 --> 0:26:30.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this has traumatized her. I got out of jail

0:26:30.560 --> 0:26:33.640
<v Speaker 2>and like we were planning to have another child. She's

0:26:33.720 --> 0:26:36.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm terrified to have another kid. We can't have any

0:26:36.040 --> 0:26:39.000
<v Speaker 2>more kids because of how CPS and the police came

0:26:39.080 --> 0:26:42.639
<v Speaker 2>and took Naomi. If FedEx shows up or Amazon and

0:26:42.680 --> 0:26:45.800
<v Speaker 2>they pound on the door, it triggers us. It's like

0:26:46.119 --> 0:26:49.440
<v Speaker 2>we're still on guard. We're in family counseling right now.

0:26:49.480 --> 0:26:52.919
<v Speaker 2>My daughter's twelve, but she doesn't know this story yet.

0:26:53.119 --> 0:26:57.960
<v Speaker 2>Naomi has autism, she's high functioning. But we're following the

0:26:58.040 --> 0:27:01.680
<v Speaker 2>counselor's lead on when and how we tell her this story.

0:27:02.400 --> 0:27:06.040
<v Speaker 2>You know, so she's an amazing kid. Again, she's twelve,

0:27:06.160 --> 0:27:10.720
<v Speaker 2>and she loves cats, she loves the color pink. She's

0:27:10.840 --> 0:27:13.119
<v Speaker 2>just a girly girl. You should see her room, Maggie.

0:27:13.200 --> 0:27:17.560
<v Speaker 2>It's incredible. If she met you today, she would say, Hi, Maggie,

0:27:17.920 --> 0:27:20.119
<v Speaker 2>do you have any pets? And what's your favorite color?

0:27:20.240 --> 0:27:22.639
<v Speaker 2>And she would want to know everything about you. She's

0:27:23.000 --> 0:27:26.680
<v Speaker 2>very verbal, very vocal, and she's just again, the best

0:27:26.680 --> 0:27:29.320
<v Speaker 2>thing that's ever happened to me. And it's amazing because

0:27:29.800 --> 0:27:32.399
<v Speaker 2>my brother, Robert Robertson is also autistic.

0:27:32.880 --> 0:27:36.119
<v Speaker 1>Since his release, Josh has become active in the fight

0:27:36.240 --> 0:27:41.160
<v Speaker 1>against SBS prosecutions, including in the case of Robert Robertson

0:27:41.359 --> 0:27:43.560
<v Speaker 1>in Texas, who we've covered here.

0:27:44.160 --> 0:27:47.160
<v Speaker 2>I see him twice a month down on death Row,

0:27:48.160 --> 0:27:51.719
<v Speaker 2>and when I talk to Robert, it's like we have

0:27:51.840 --> 0:27:56.399
<v Speaker 2>this connection, Like I was immediately able to communicate with

0:27:56.520 --> 0:28:00.359
<v Speaker 2>him because him and Naomi communicate almost the same way.

0:28:00.640 --> 0:28:04.040
<v Speaker 2>Robert is also very verbal. But Robert he knows everyone's

0:28:04.080 --> 0:28:07.360
<v Speaker 2>birthdays and he has the dates memorized. What's your birthday,

0:28:07.440 --> 0:28:11.560
<v Speaker 2>what's your favorite food, your favorite color? It's oh my gosh.

0:28:11.640 --> 0:28:14.960
<v Speaker 2>We just hit it off right away, you know, Naomi.

0:28:15.280 --> 0:28:19.359
<v Speaker 2>She knows that Robert is autistic, and every time she says,

0:28:19.520 --> 0:28:22.639
<v Speaker 2>please tell Robert that I said hi, and I'm praying

0:28:22.720 --> 0:28:26.120
<v Speaker 2>for him. And she knows that Dad's fighting for Robert.

0:28:26.240 --> 0:28:29.440
<v Speaker 2>She doesn't know all the details, but Naomi made these

0:28:29.560 --> 0:28:33.440
<v Speaker 2>bracelets for everybody. When we did a rally for Robert.

0:28:33.920 --> 0:28:36.359
<v Speaker 2>She came up to me one day and said, Dad,

0:28:36.400 --> 0:28:40.000
<v Speaker 2>I know you're trying to help Robert, and she knows

0:28:40.040 --> 0:28:43.040
<v Speaker 2>about Nicki, his daughter, and she said, Dad, I want

0:28:43.040 --> 0:28:45.719
<v Speaker 2>to help too. I just hugged her and it was like,

0:28:46.000 --> 0:28:47.480
<v Speaker 2>what do you want to do? And she said, I

0:28:47.520 --> 0:28:51.400
<v Speaker 2>want to know what Nicki and Robert's favorite colors are,

0:28:51.440 --> 0:28:54.720
<v Speaker 2>and I want to make bracelets for everybody. And I

0:28:54.800 --> 0:28:57.800
<v Speaker 2>had the bag of like fifty bracelets she had made

0:28:58.280 --> 0:29:01.240
<v Speaker 2>this rally. There was undreds of people there. I didn't

0:29:01.240 --> 0:29:03.880
<v Speaker 2>have enough, but I still wear mine. I show it

0:29:03.920 --> 0:29:06.640
<v Speaker 2>to Robert and I'm like, Lord, Willing, will give you

0:29:06.680 --> 0:29:08.040
<v Speaker 2>one of these to wear someday.

0:29:08.080 --> 0:29:08.600
<v Speaker 3>And you know.

0:29:10.000 --> 0:29:13.240
<v Speaker 1>Josh joined Robert's fight in twenty twenty four. Soon after

0:29:13.280 --> 0:29:17.760
<v Speaker 1>an unprecedented maneuver that saved Robert's life, he was scheduled

0:29:17.760 --> 0:29:22.160
<v Speaker 1>for execution that October. All remedies had been exhausted when

0:29:22.160 --> 0:29:26.440
<v Speaker 1>a bipartisan panel from the Texas Legislature subpoena Robert to

0:29:26.520 --> 0:29:30.000
<v Speaker 1>appear before them after his execution was to take place,

0:29:30.440 --> 0:29:33.920
<v Speaker 1>which then forced a stay of the execution while it

0:29:33.960 --> 0:29:36.360
<v Speaker 1>was decided whether or not they could even do that.

0:29:36.920 --> 0:29:40.520
<v Speaker 1>The Texas Supreme Court ultimately said that this maneuver would

0:29:40.520 --> 0:29:44.560
<v Speaker 1>not work a second time. Meanwhile, over thousands of miles

0:29:44.560 --> 0:29:48.360
<v Speaker 1>to the northeast, the Michigan Attorney General Conviction Integrity Unit

0:29:48.480 --> 0:29:52.440
<v Speaker 1>had joined Josh's team in a motion to vacate his conviction.

0:29:53.120 --> 0:29:56.640
<v Speaker 2>In November of twenty twenty four, when I was exonerated,

0:29:56.880 --> 0:30:00.600
<v Speaker 2>Robert had just been given his second stay of it execution,

0:30:01.080 --> 0:30:05.040
<v Speaker 2>and I read an article in the Dallas Morning News

0:30:05.520 --> 0:30:08.680
<v Speaker 2>a state representative names Lacey Hull, and she had been

0:30:08.720 --> 0:30:12.280
<v Speaker 2>advocating for Robert. I called her office and I said, Hey,

0:30:12.760 --> 0:30:15.320
<v Speaker 2>I was just exonerated this week, and I'm hearing about

0:30:15.360 --> 0:30:18.320
<v Speaker 2>this guy. I'm here if I can help. I didn't

0:30:18.360 --> 0:30:21.600
<v Speaker 2>realize what I was saying, because a month later, Robert

0:30:21.680 --> 0:30:27.120
<v Speaker 2>was subpoenaed to testify before the Texas Legislature's Jurisprudence Committee.

0:30:27.160 --> 0:30:29.920
<v Speaker 2>He's subpoena to be there, and the Attorney General blocked

0:30:29.960 --> 0:30:33.120
<v Speaker 2>him from testifying. So I got a call two days

0:30:33.160 --> 0:30:36.600
<v Speaker 2>prior to the hearing asking can you come down and

0:30:36.640 --> 0:30:40.520
<v Speaker 2>testify as an exonery for Robert? And it was like,

0:30:41.040 --> 0:30:44.240
<v Speaker 2>holy shit, I've never done this, but okay, here we go. Yeah,

0:30:44.520 --> 0:30:48.240
<v Speaker 2>of course, yes, I'll come. But I was completely terrified.

0:30:48.280 --> 0:30:51.240
<v Speaker 2>I jumped on an airplane and made the quick twenty

0:30:51.240 --> 0:30:53.640
<v Speaker 2>five minute flight down, hubered over to the Capitol in

0:30:53.680 --> 0:30:56.560
<v Speaker 2>a suit and tie and read the pre planned statement

0:30:56.640 --> 0:30:59.040
<v Speaker 2>that I had thrown together, and then I sat there

0:30:59.080 --> 0:31:02.160
<v Speaker 2>and was questioned by all these politicians for the next hour.

0:31:02.200 --> 0:31:05.240
<v Speaker 2>I didn't realize like that I was going to answer questions,

0:31:05.280 --> 0:31:08.760
<v Speaker 2>but that was the first time exonerated that I was

0:31:08.800 --> 0:31:11.240
<v Speaker 2>able to use my voice for good.

0:31:11.520 --> 0:31:12.120
<v Speaker 1>How'd that feel?

0:31:12.440 --> 0:31:15.600
<v Speaker 2>It felt really good. It felt really good to share

0:31:15.960 --> 0:31:19.760
<v Speaker 2>my story and how it lines up with what Robert

0:31:19.800 --> 0:31:22.440
<v Speaker 2>has gone through, what he's accused of, and being able

0:31:22.480 --> 0:31:24.680
<v Speaker 2>to just say, hey, I'm here to tell you that

0:31:25.080 --> 0:31:29.520
<v Speaker 2>this man deserves a new trial. All the evidence needs

0:31:29.560 --> 0:31:32.120
<v Speaker 2>to be seen, you know. One of the politicians said, so,

0:31:32.440 --> 0:31:35.440
<v Speaker 2>you're not asking us to unlock the cell and let

0:31:35.440 --> 0:31:37.960
<v Speaker 2>this man out right now. Huge part of me wanted

0:31:37.960 --> 0:31:42.080
<v Speaker 2>to say yes, but I know, we all know, like

0:31:42.160 --> 0:31:45.280
<v Speaker 2>the best thing that can happen for Robert and for everyone,

0:31:45.400 --> 0:31:48.160
<v Speaker 2>for the entire cause, is for Robert to get a

0:31:48.200 --> 0:31:50.760
<v Speaker 2>new trial, for all the evidence to be seen, and

0:31:50.800 --> 0:31:52.280
<v Speaker 2>for him to be declared innocent.

0:31:52.760 --> 0:31:57.000
<v Speaker 1>And there's another Texas man named Andrew Rourke whose case

0:31:57.120 --> 0:32:00.680
<v Speaker 1>is also significant. He too had been convicted under an

0:32:00.760 --> 0:32:04.960
<v Speaker 1>SBS prosecution in a case where the child did not die.

0:32:05.480 --> 0:32:08.600
<v Speaker 1>He did thirteen years of a thirty five year sentence,

0:32:08.880 --> 0:32:12.840
<v Speaker 1>and it took him twenty seven years to be exonerated.

0:32:13.520 --> 0:32:17.120
<v Speaker 1>Andrew was kind enough to speak with us my case.

0:32:17.520 --> 0:32:19.440
<v Speaker 4>For a long time, a Laurier would tell me, I'm

0:32:19.480 --> 0:32:21.440
<v Speaker 4>not sure if we can get there. He kept going

0:32:21.480 --> 0:32:24.240
<v Speaker 4>back and forth. Luckily I was in Dallas County where

0:32:24.240 --> 0:32:27.480
<v Speaker 4>they actually started the integrity unit, and it seemed like

0:32:27.560 --> 0:32:29.600
<v Speaker 4>for a long time nobody wanted to really pull the

0:32:29.640 --> 0:32:33.440
<v Speaker 4>trigger on it. But I finally got exonerated and I

0:32:33.560 --> 0:32:35.080
<v Speaker 4>got found actual innocent.

0:32:35.600 --> 0:32:38.920
<v Speaker 1>His exoneration comes from the re examination of the state's

0:32:39.000 --> 0:32:41.800
<v Speaker 1>expert testimony that was based in what we now know

0:32:42.040 --> 0:32:46.760
<v Speaker 1>to be an untested hypothesis being treated as scientific theorem.

0:32:47.160 --> 0:32:50.360
<v Speaker 1>The state's expert had to recant her testimony, and she

0:32:50.440 --> 0:32:54.000
<v Speaker 1>is also one of the main expert witnesses in Robert

0:32:54.240 --> 0:32:55.160
<v Speaker 1>Robertson's case.

0:32:55.680 --> 0:32:58.479
<v Speaker 4>What I tell people is, had the child died in

0:32:58.480 --> 0:33:02.400
<v Speaker 4>my case, I'd be right next to him on death row.

0:33:03.200 --> 0:33:07.400
<v Speaker 4>It's unbelievable. Hell easy it is to get in that

0:33:07.480 --> 0:33:09.720
<v Speaker 4>kind of trouble when you can't explain what happened to

0:33:09.760 --> 0:33:10.080
<v Speaker 4>your kid.

0:33:11.040 --> 0:33:15.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Robert was granted his third stay of execution in

0:33:15.040 --> 0:33:18.520
<v Speaker 1>October twenty twenty five, and his case was remanded to

0:33:18.560 --> 0:33:22.239
<v Speaker 1>the trial court to consider the new scientific evidence in

0:33:22.280 --> 0:33:25.640
<v Speaker 1>his case under Texas's junk science law.

0:33:25.960 --> 0:33:29.280
<v Speaker 2>You know one thing too, Maggie. The Texas Criminal Court

0:33:29.280 --> 0:33:32.800
<v Speaker 2>of Appeals in their ruling when Robert got his stay,

0:33:33.240 --> 0:33:36.760
<v Speaker 2>it says that what happens in Robert's case from here

0:33:36.840 --> 0:33:41.520
<v Speaker 2>on out will be considered solely on ex parte Rourke.

0:33:42.080 --> 0:33:47.120
<v Speaker 2>So the Rourke decision, Andrew Rourke's case is what allowed

0:33:47.240 --> 0:33:50.520
<v Speaker 2>Robert to get his stay of execution. Wow, and so

0:33:50.680 --> 0:33:55.400
<v Speaker 2>it's incredible like Andrew's case paved the way for our

0:33:55.440 --> 0:33:56.040
<v Speaker 2>other brother.

0:33:56.520 --> 0:33:58.800
<v Speaker 1>Tell me how you met Andrew.

0:33:59.120 --> 0:34:04.360
<v Speaker 2>So we officially met at the Seattle Innocence Network conference.

0:34:04.480 --> 0:34:07.440
<v Speaker 2>We were first year of ZONERIES because Andrew and I

0:34:07.520 --> 0:34:11.520
<v Speaker 2>were dexonerated three days apart in November of twenty twenty four,

0:34:12.040 --> 0:34:14.880
<v Speaker 2>and it just so happens that we live within an

0:34:15.000 --> 0:34:18.239
<v Speaker 2>hour of each other here in Texas. So I had

0:34:18.280 --> 0:34:23.719
<v Speaker 2>reached out to Andrew before that time, like I knew

0:34:23.760 --> 0:34:27.080
<v Speaker 2>who he was. I follow all these cases and didn't

0:34:27.080 --> 0:34:30.960
<v Speaker 2>hear anything back. But then shortly before the conference I

0:34:31.000 --> 0:34:32.960
<v Speaker 2>heard from him. He said, are you going to be there?

0:34:33.000 --> 0:34:34.480
<v Speaker 2>I said, I'm going to be there? All right? We

0:34:34.520 --> 0:34:35.040
<v Speaker 2>got to meet.

0:34:35.440 --> 0:34:38.319
<v Speaker 4>If it wasn't for my wife pushing me to go

0:34:38.400 --> 0:34:41.480
<v Speaker 4>to Seattle and get involved in this stuff, I would

0:34:41.520 --> 0:34:43.920
<v Speaker 4>have never known how many people are affected by all

0:34:43.960 --> 0:34:45.800
<v Speaker 4>this that have been wrongfully convicted.

0:34:46.000 --> 0:34:47.799
<v Speaker 2>I ended up sitting at the table with him and

0:34:47.800 --> 0:34:51.080
<v Speaker 2>his wife Kelly at all the events, and we just

0:34:51.160 --> 0:34:55.280
<v Speaker 2>hung out and we shared our stories and just obviously

0:34:55.320 --> 0:34:59.239
<v Speaker 2>there was just this immediate connection with him, because you're

0:34:59.280 --> 0:35:02.920
<v Speaker 2>talking to like a brother who just gets it.

0:35:03.280 --> 0:35:07.560
<v Speaker 4>We all have a connection by going through absolute hell

0:35:08.000 --> 0:35:12.759
<v Speaker 4>with all this, and in our cases children being involved.

0:35:13.000 --> 0:35:17.080
<v Speaker 4>It's always looked at as I guess more evil.

0:35:17.680 --> 0:35:18.600
<v Speaker 1>It's very emotional.

0:35:18.680 --> 0:35:20.640
<v Speaker 2>It's like it triggers people, the.

0:35:20.600 --> 0:35:24.319
<v Speaker 4>Way people look at you and just judge you right

0:35:24.360 --> 0:35:28.160
<v Speaker 4>away for just hearing what you're accused of or convicted

0:35:28.200 --> 0:35:28.760
<v Speaker 4>of or whatever.

0:35:29.320 --> 0:35:32.319
<v Speaker 2>So many similar experiences, and.

0:35:32.239 --> 0:35:34.880
<v Speaker 4>Then we got a request to do an interview. We

0:35:34.960 --> 0:35:38.040
<v Speaker 4>met Dan Schleppi in there, and he's the one that

0:35:38.120 --> 0:35:40.160
<v Speaker 4>kind of got us in a group. I guess at

0:35:40.160 --> 0:35:41.680
<v Speaker 4>that time he was going to do a podcast with

0:35:41.840 --> 0:35:46.279
<v Speaker 4>Lester Holt about Robert Robertson. And that's when I got

0:35:46.320 --> 0:35:48.840
<v Speaker 4>the idea, like, I'm comfortable in this setting, and I

0:35:48.880 --> 0:35:51.560
<v Speaker 4>really like this setting, and I love Josh.

0:35:51.760 --> 0:35:54.680
<v Speaker 1>It seems that after their experience with the great Dan

0:35:54.800 --> 0:35:58.560
<v Speaker 1>Sleppion and Lester Holt, Josh and Andrew decided to make

0:35:58.920 --> 0:35:59.880
<v Speaker 1>their own podcast.

0:36:00.719 --> 0:36:04.759
<v Speaker 2>Unshaken Truth is the name of this podcast, and we're

0:36:04.800 --> 0:36:09.840
<v Speaker 2>going to focus on Robert's case the issues surrounding shaken

0:36:09.920 --> 0:36:14.240
<v Speaker 2>baby syndrome, and our first guest will be author John Grisham.

0:36:14.640 --> 0:36:18.120
<v Speaker 2>He's currently writing a book about Robert. And we're going

0:36:18.160 --> 0:36:23.520
<v Speaker 2>to talk to subject matter experts, attorneys, advocacy groups, other exonarees,

0:36:24.239 --> 0:36:27.640
<v Speaker 2>some lawmakers here in Texas who want to make changes,

0:36:28.040 --> 0:36:32.279
<v Speaker 2>just to bring awareness to everyone that what happened to

0:36:32.320 --> 0:36:34.880
<v Speaker 2>Andrew and I and Robert can happen to anyone.

0:36:35.160 --> 0:36:37.800
<v Speaker 1>We'll be linking to your podcast in the episode description,

0:36:38.040 --> 0:36:41.360
<v Speaker 1>as well as ways people can stay tuned to Robert's case.

0:36:41.640 --> 0:36:43.640
<v Speaker 1>And with that, I'm going to leave the mic open

0:36:44.120 --> 0:36:46.680
<v Speaker 1>for anything else y'all want to tell our audience.

0:36:47.440 --> 0:36:50.239
<v Speaker 2>Before all this happened, I felt like if somebody was

0:36:50.280 --> 0:36:53.240
<v Speaker 2>in court and they were before a jury, they probably

0:36:53.320 --> 0:36:56.719
<v Speaker 2>deserve what they had come into them. I'm ashamed that

0:36:57.160 --> 0:37:01.760
<v Speaker 2>it took this happening to me and my friend and brother,

0:37:01.880 --> 0:37:07.319
<v Speaker 2>Andrew Rourke, my brother Robert Robertson. It's like lifted the

0:37:07.400 --> 0:37:11.560
<v Speaker 2>scales off my eyes. I feel like I bought into

0:37:11.600 --> 0:37:17.279
<v Speaker 2>a narrative that doesn't hold water. I'm ashamed that this

0:37:17.320 --> 0:37:19.920
<v Speaker 2>is what it took to soften my heart and to

0:37:20.000 --> 0:37:24.040
<v Speaker 2>see the truth of life's not that simple. Things aren't

0:37:24.040 --> 0:37:27.640
<v Speaker 2>that simple. It's changed my view on the death penalty.

0:37:28.080 --> 0:37:31.880
<v Speaker 2>Robert's an innocent man, and we're going to fight for him.

0:37:32.280 --> 0:37:35.200
<v Speaker 2>One of the things that has become a battle cry

0:37:35.239 --> 0:37:37.960
<v Speaker 2>for me. When my feet hit the floor in the morning,

0:37:38.520 --> 0:37:42.320
<v Speaker 2>I say, for those who can't, I am fighting, Andrew

0:37:42.440 --> 0:37:44.919
<v Speaker 2>is fighting. We are fighting for those who can't. When

0:37:45.000 --> 0:37:47.879
<v Speaker 2>I was a convicted felon, I felt like I didn't

0:37:47.920 --> 0:37:51.400
<v Speaker 2>have a voice. But the University of Michigan Innocence Clinic

0:37:51.880 --> 0:37:55.040
<v Speaker 2>was my voice. They fought for me when I couldn't.

0:37:55.360 --> 0:37:57.520
<v Speaker 2>So if you're out there and you feel like you

0:37:57.520 --> 0:38:00.480
<v Speaker 2>don't have a voice, we hear you, and we are

0:38:00.480 --> 0:38:04.040
<v Speaker 2>here to fight for you, and we will not stop

0:38:04.160 --> 0:38:07.719
<v Speaker 2>fighting for you. For Robert, for all these people who

0:38:07.800 --> 0:38:13.520
<v Speaker 2>are waiting for justice.

0:38:15.719 --> 0:38:18.640
<v Speaker 1>Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling.

0:38:18.920 --> 0:38:21.400
<v Speaker 1>I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and

0:38:21.480 --> 0:38:25.680
<v Speaker 1>Kathleen Fink, as well as executive producers Jason Flamm, Jeff Kempler,

0:38:25.760 --> 0:38:29.400
<v Speaker 1>Kevin Burtis, and Jeff Clyburn. The music in this production

0:38:29.520 --> 0:38:33.200
<v Speaker 1>was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

0:38:33.400 --> 0:38:36.600
<v Speaker 1>Be sure to follow us across all social media platforms

0:38:36.640 --> 0:38:39.719
<v Speaker 1>at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can

0:38:39.760 --> 0:38:43.600
<v Speaker 1>also follow me on all platforms at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful

0:38:43.680 --> 0:38:46.680
<v Speaker 1>Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a production of Lava for

0:38:46.800 --> 0:38:50.640
<v Speaker 1>Good podcast in association with the Signal Company Number One.

0:38:50.760 --> 0:38:53.279
<v Speaker 2>We've worked hard to ensure that all facts reported in

0:38:53.320 --> 0:38:56.120
<v Speaker 2>this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed by

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<v Speaker 2>the individuals featured in this show are their own and

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<v Speaker 2>do not necessarily reflect those of Love of Her Good