1 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: On March fifteenth, twenty fourteen, Josh Burns was at home 2 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,319 Speaker 1: in Brighton, Michigan, with his newborn daughter, Naomi. His wife, 3 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: Brenda was out getting her first haircut after becoming a mom. 4 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 2: I got Naomi up from her nap and I'm feeding 5 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 2: her a bottle and Brenda had called my cell phone 6 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 2: and there was a coffee table in front of us. 7 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 2: When I went to put the phone down, I felt 8 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 2: Naomi sliding forward off my knee, like about to do 9 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 2: a header into the coffee table. So I like reached 10 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 2: out my hand and kind of had to catch her 11 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 2: by her face and like propped her back up. She 12 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 2: had like a little scratch on her cheek because I 13 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 2: had to grab her. So then Brenda gets home and 14 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 2: I'm like, I almost dropped Naomi. So she looks Naomi over. 15 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 2: I mean, she's a nurse, and Naomi was normal, she 16 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 2: didn't even really cry from the event. 17 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: But over the following days, Naomi was pale, lethargic, and nauseous, 18 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: making several trips back and forth to the emergency room. Ultimately, 19 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: when at home, she went limp, struggled to breathe, and 20 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: Josh he called nine to one one. 21 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 2: They were using an infant CPR breathing bag on Naomi, 22 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 2: and we had to stop at a fire station and 23 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 2: pick up a fire paramedic to assist the paramedic in 24 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 2: the back. And they were doing like ninety miles an 25 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 2: hour down the freeway and wow, I still have nionmares 26 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 2: about it. And we got to the pediatric er and 27 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 2: they had been looking into all these different things, and 28 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 2: then they came and they did a bedside eye exam 29 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 2: of Naomi and they found retinal hemorrhages in the backs 30 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 2: of her eyes. Next thing we knew, there's a child 31 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 2: abuse pediatrician in the room. And when the CPS worker 32 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 2: came and interviewed us, he told us he said, well, 33 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 2: the child abuse pediatrician says that this is shaken baby syndrome, 34 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 2: and we're like what. From this point on, they started 35 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 2: treating us both like criminals. I'm Josh Burns. I was 36 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 2: wrongfully convicted, spent a year incarcerated, and it took just 37 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 2: over ten years to be exonerated and declared innocent. 38 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: From Love of for Good. This is wrongful conviction with 39 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: Maggie Freeling today, Josh Burns. 40 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 2: I grew up in Colorado on the front range of 41 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 2: the Rockies Colorado Springs. Have an older brother and a 42 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 2: younger sister. So I'm that typical crazy middle kid. I 43 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 2: had a great family upbringing. My parents are still married 44 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 2: almost for fifty four years now. 45 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: So you said you were kind of the crazy middle child. 46 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: What does that mean? So? I was always a joke 47 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 2: in a prankster, still kind of am. For instance, in school, 48 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 2: I had a Spanish teacher. He had just arrived from 49 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 2: Peru and he spoke English. But I arrived to the 50 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 2: class late, and my last name is Burns. So he said, 51 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 2: what's your name? And I said, I'm Sideburns and he 52 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 2: said Side and he wrote my name down and everyone 53 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 2: in the class knew I was Josh. And about two 54 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 2: months later, my parents showed up for parent teacher conferences 55 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 2: and he said, we need to talk about your son's 56 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 2: side and they said who you know? 57 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: Oh that went on for a minute. 58 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 2: Wow yeah yeah. So and my dad, my dad and 59 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 2: mom came home and my dad was trying to like 60 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 2: get serious with me and tell me how I was 61 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 2: disrespecting my elders, but he just started cracking up laughing, goes, 62 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 2: I don't know where you come up with this stuff, 63 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 2: you know. So the joke was out and he made 64 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 2: me stand up in front of the class on Monday. 65 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: Perhaps being called out helped Josh focus on his aspirations 66 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: besides class clown. 67 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 2: I just had a fascination from the age of five 68 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 2: with airplanes and flying, and just was one of those 69 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 2: kids who always knew that I wanted to be a pilot. Wow, 70 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 2: and that dream came true. I went to flight school, 71 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 2: built up my flight hours doing crazy things like flying 72 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 2: skydivers and Grand Canyon tour flights from Las Vegas, all 73 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 2: those will fly for food jobs, basically to build your 74 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 2: time so you can get on with an airline. And 75 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 2: then got on with the airlines and spent over twenty 76 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 2: five years as an airline pilot. I'm still in the 77 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 2: industry now. I trained pilots for a major airline here 78 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 2: in Texas. 79 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 1: But before living in Texas, Josh and his wife Brenda 80 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: met in the early two thousands serving in a ministry 81 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 1: for young adults with substance abuse issues and eating disorders. 82 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: They fell in love, got married, and settled down in Michigan. Eventually, 83 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: Brenda became pregnant with their daughter, Naomi. 84 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 2: I remember her taking the test and we were just 85 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 2: so excited, and then we went in for that ultrasound. 86 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 2: Remember in the ultrasound, she did like a summersault, She 87 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 2: like did a full She looked like an astronaut in 88 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 2: zero gravity. So everything was trucking along just fine. And 89 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 2: then Brenda was about a week overdue and we went 90 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 2: in to visit the doctor and he said, I can 91 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 2: do some things here to speed things along, and Brenda said, 92 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 2: let's do it, because I feel like I'm going to 93 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 2: explode and this kid's on my bladder and I have 94 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 2: to pee every two minutes, you know. So about six 95 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 2: hours after he did his procedure, Brenda's water broke and 96 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 2: we were on our way to the hospital in a 97 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 2: snowstorm in Michigan. So yeah, we drove to the hospital 98 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 2: and they got her right into the room, but she 99 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 2: pushed for hours and hours and Naomi's head became stuck 100 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 2: and it was scary because the doctor said, hey, we 101 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 2: can try what's called a vacuum extraction. We can put 102 00:05:57,800 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 2: this device on her head and try to get her 103 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 2: head dislodge and moving through. So they tried that about 104 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 2: three times that it failed, and then they said, okay, 105 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 2: we need to move into an emergency sea section. 106 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: At this point, we should mention that one of the 107 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: risks of a vacuum assisted delivery is intracrinial hemorrhage and 108 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: subgalio hematoma, which are among the so called triad of 109 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: findings associated with the debunk hypothesis known as shaken baby syndrome. 110 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: And they attempted the vacuum assisted birth three times before 111 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: moving onto a sasarean section in which she was pulled 112 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: in the opposite direction. But finally Naomi was born January seventh, 113 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen. 114 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 2: Finally Naomi was out and we heard her cry and 115 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 2: we just started pauling, you know. I was like, there 116 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 2: she is, there she is. And they cleaned Naomi up 117 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 2: and handed her to me, and I was able to 118 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 2: put her face to face with mommy, and it was 119 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 2: just it was amazing. So I was home for the 120 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 2: first two months on family leave, so I was able 121 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 2: to just be home and be present and make that 122 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 2: bond with her and see her smile for the first time, 123 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 2: like all those milestones, and it was an incredible time. 124 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 2: Naomi was struggling though my wife was trying to breastfeed, 125 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: and she was sleepy and lethargic. She wouldn't latch to 126 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 2: my wife's breast well, and my wife ended up having 127 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 2: to pump breast milk and then we would defeed her 128 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 2: breast milk through the bottle whatever we could. But Naomi 129 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 2: actually lost some weight since birth, and we kept going 130 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 2: back to the pediatrician and they were like, yeah, this 131 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 2: can happen with these kind of deliveries. 132 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: In all likelihood, Naomi's issues began during her delivery and 133 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: came to a head about nine or ten weeks later 134 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: in the lead up to her baptism, right around when 135 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: Josh's paternity leave wrapped up. 136 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 2: I had just gone back and finished my first four 137 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 2: day trip back at the airline, so it was like 138 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 2: Brenda's first four days alone with Naomi without me from 139 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 2: being on family leave. So she's like, I'm going to 140 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 2: the salon. I need a haircut before the baptism. And 141 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 2: it was like you go. She said, all right, when 142 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 2: Naomi wakes up, feed her this bottle. So I got 143 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 2: Naomi up from her nap and I'm feeding her a 144 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 2: bottle and Brenda had called my cell phone for something, 145 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 2: and when I went to put the phone down, I 146 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 2: felt like Naomi sliding forward off my knee, and there 147 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 2: was a coffee table in front of us, so I 148 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 2: like reached out my hand and she was like heading 149 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 2: towards the coffee table, like about to do a header. 150 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 2: So I had to catch her by her face and 151 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 2: propped her back up. She had the little scratch on 152 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 2: her cheek because I had to grab her. So then 153 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 2: Brenda gets home and I'm like, I almost dropped Naomi. 154 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 2: So she looks Naomi over. She's a nurse, and Naomi 155 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 2: was normal. She didn't even really cry from the event. 156 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: This event or non event, is what Josh had to 157 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: think back to when Child Protective Services eventually came asking 158 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: him what he'd done to her, of course, assuming with 159 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: support from the medical community, that Naomi had been abused. 160 00:08:57,880 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: But we're getting ahead of ourselves. 161 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,959 Speaker 2: Naomi's baptism, we got her dressed and ready to go, 162 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 2: and we get to church and she's in her car 163 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 2: seat carrier, and all of a sudden, we looked over 164 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 2: and she was like pale, and she projectile vomited, and 165 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 2: we're like, oh my gosh, Like we get her cleaned up, 166 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 2: and we noticed that she like quickly regained her color. 167 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 2: And we were like, do we need to cancel the baptism? 168 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 2: But we were like maybe something disagreed with her or 169 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 2: but she seemed okay after that, so we had the baptism, 170 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 2: and then when we fed her again, she projectile vomited again. 171 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 2: So now we're like, okay, we got a problem here. 172 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 2: So Brenda called the on call pediatrician and told them 173 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 2: what was going on, and they said, you could feed 174 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 2: her a few more times and see what happens, or 175 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 2: you can take her to the pediatric ar. And we're 176 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 2: like first time parents, We're like, we're taking her in. 177 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 2: So we took her into the er, talked to the doctor, 178 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 2: told him even about like how I almost dropped her 179 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 2: the day before. He said, this sounds like a stomach 180 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 2: bug or a virus. Ransom tests and said, I don't 181 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 2: see anything of concern, but we can't test for everything. 182 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 2: This could just be a stomach bug. Send us home, 183 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,319 Speaker 2: and said, just feed her again and see what happens. 184 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 2: So she just starts projectile vomiting again. We're in and 185 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 2: out of the pediatric ar three times, in her pediatrician's 186 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 2: office once and they just keep telling us that it's 187 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 2: a stomach bug. And then finally day three of this, 188 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 2: Naomi goes limp and her eyes roll back in her 189 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 2: head and her breathing becomes labored. So I call nine 190 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 2: one one and the ambulance comes and they could see 191 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 2: like that Naomi needed immediate care. We get in the 192 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 2: ambulance and there's this partition where Brenda can look back. 193 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 2: We're locking eyes and I'm trying to give her this 194 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 2: look like it's okay. But you know how it is 195 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 2: when you know your partner, your spouse. It's like she 196 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 2: knew they were using an infant CPR breathing bag on Naomi. 197 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 2: We had to stop at a fire station and pick 198 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 2: up a fire paramedic to assist the paramedic in the back, 199 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 2: and they were doing like ninety miles an hour down 200 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 2: the freeway, and. 201 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 3: I just I still have nightmares about it. 202 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 2: As a dad, I just felt completely helpless. I cried 203 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 2: out to God and I just said, please work through 204 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 2: these paramedics' hands and just give everyone wisdom to help Naomi. 205 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 2: We got to the pediatric er and they quickly moved 206 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 2: Naomi up to the pediatric ICU. They had to intubate 207 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 2: her with a breathing tube and We told them all 208 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 2: the history and they just said, once again, gosh, this 209 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 2: sounds like virus of some sort. 210 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: And their instincts could have been right. In addition to shortfalls, 211 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: there are over eighty medical issues that can cause the 212 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 1: cluster of findings formally associated with the now defunct hypothesis 213 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: known as shaken baby syndrome. To recap previous coverage, in England, 214 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one, doctor Norman Guthkelch, a pediatric neurosurgeon, was 215 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: seeing deceased infants and toddlers that presented with unexplainable brain 216 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: swelling and bleeding, as well as retinal bleeding, opining that 217 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: perhaps folks were shaking their children to break a crying 218 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: spell or tantrum and accidentally causing these potentially fatal findings. 219 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: But unable to test this hypothesis, and seemingly out of 220 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: an abundance of caution, newly educated doctors were taught the 221 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: hypothesis as a theory until proven otherwise, which led to 222 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: the diagnosis of abuse, followed by criminal charges for parents 223 00:12:58,520 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: like Brenda and Josh. 224 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 2: They had been looking into all these different things. They 225 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 2: had done MRIs. They did two spinal taps on Naomi 226 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 2: cat scans, and then they came and they did a 227 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 2: bedside eye exam of Naomi and they found retinal hemorrhages 228 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 2: in the backs of her eyes. And that's when everything changed, 229 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 2: all of a sudden, The main I see you doctor 230 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 2: comes into the room and he says, retinal hemorrhages are 231 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 2: typically a sign of child abuse and we have to 232 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 2: consult with the child abuse pediatrician in the child protection 233 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 2: team and get them involved. Next thing we knew, there's 234 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:36,839 Speaker 2: a child abuse pediatrician in the room and she looks 235 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 2: at Naomi. She doesn't really treat Naomi, she just looks 236 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 2: her over bedside, and then she turns to my wife 237 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 2: and I and says, I need to interview you both 238 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 2: but separately. And we're like sure, we were completely naive. 239 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 2: We're like, yes, let's get this cleared up, let's talk 240 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 2: through this and explain it to her. But after the interview, 241 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 2: we realized, like that she's calling Child Protective Services law enforce. 242 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 2: The child abuse pediatrician diedn't even tell us. When the 243 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 2: CPS worker came and interviewed us, he told us he 244 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 2: said the child abuse pediatrician says that this is shaken 245 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 2: baby syndrome, and we're like what, We're just floored we're 246 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 2: being accused of child abuse. From this point on, they 247 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 2: started treating us both like criminals. They said, you guys 248 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 2: can't stay the night in the hospital anymore. You can't 249 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 2: be alone with your daughter in the room. You have 250 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 2: to have like witnesses in the room with you. All 251 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 2: these things. They called it a safety plan, and we 252 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 2: just said, okay, whatever we have to do. But we 253 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 2: started looking into retinal hemorrhages and we realized that infants 254 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 2: from traumatic births like vacuum extraction attempts and see sections 255 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 2: have retinal hemorrhages. So we bring this up to the 256 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 2: child abuse pediatrician and she's just dismissing everything. Nope, this 257 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 2: is all it can be. Nope, this is all it 258 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 2: can be. And then she tells us, she goes, hey, 259 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 2: the MRI that your daughter had here in the hospit 260 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 2: was misread. She also has subdurohematomas, and we said they 261 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 2: did that MRI to see if it was safe to 262 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 2: do spinal taps on Naomi. So we're like, wait a minute, 263 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 2: you tell us read that. Yeah, yeah, I said, you're 264 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 2: telling me they misread an MRI and then did two 265 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 2: spinal taps on my daughter off a misread MRI and 266 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 2: she says she admitted it. She goes, yeah, the doctors 267 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 2: involved in that, I told them to call risk management. 268 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 2: They're the attorneys for the hospital. So we knew at 269 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 2: this point, like we need an attorney. We're in a 270 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 2: fight for our lives. It was just a nightmare. 271 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: Thankfully, this story is not the nightmare we're used to 272 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: in SBS cases. On April first, twenty fourteen, Naomi was 273 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: deemed recovered and was released from the hospital. Three days later, 274 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: the director of the hospital's Child Protective Team, doctor Bethany Moore, 275 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: finalized her report that Naomi was the victim of abusive 276 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: head trauma and that Josh was responsible. 277 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 2: A CPS worker and three police showed up unannounced, and 278 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 2: the CPS worker said, I have a signed order from 279 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 2: a judge to remove Naomi from your care. And we 280 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 2: said where is she going? And he said, none of 281 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 2: your business. I said, why can't she stay here? Why 282 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 2: can't she stay with family or friends? You and your 283 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 2: wife are considered a danger to your daughter, and anyone 284 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 2: who supports you is considered a danger to your daughter. 285 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 2: She's going into foster care, I said, with who, and 286 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 2: he goes you have a court hearing in the morning. 287 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 2: You'll get more information there, and I'm just again, it 288 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: took me back to those same feelings. In the ambulance, 289 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 2: I was like, I'm trying to keep my family safe. 290 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 2: So I loaded up Naomi in her car seat, and 291 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 2: my wife and I were just bawling, and again I prayed. 292 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 2: I said keep her safe, God, shine light in this darkness. 293 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 2: And then this was really difficult because literally, the government 294 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,439 Speaker 2: is taking my child away and I have no idea 295 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 2: where she's going. So there's this raw party you write 296 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 2: that is like, how dare you do this to us? 297 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 2: We didn't do anything. You feel like you want to 298 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 2: fight for your family, but CPS, from what I've experienced 299 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 2: with them, they hope that you'll lose it in these 300 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 2: situations as a dad because they just use it as 301 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 2: ammunition against you, and I knew, like I have to 302 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 2: keep it together. We ended up in the family court 303 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 2: situation and they allowed Brenda three one hour visits a 304 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 2: week with Naomi and I wasn't allowed to see her 305 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 2: at all. 306 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: Naomi spent the next seven months in foster care. Well 307 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: the state took Brenda and Josh to civil court for 308 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: jurisdiction over Naomi. 309 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 2: Brenda was in my corner, but it was really difficult 310 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 2: for her. Like the prosecutors literally came up to Brenda 311 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 2: in the hallway and said, divorce Josh and testify against 312 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 2: him and we'll give you the baby. And they're like, 313 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 2: use Naomi as a pomp. We didn't realize that in 314 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 2: the moment, but literally what they were planning to do. 315 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 2: If Brenda did that, if Brenda just decided, well, I 316 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 2: don't know, I'm just gonna do whatever I got to 317 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:13,959 Speaker 2: do to get Naomi home, now, they would have charged 318 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 2: her with failure to protect and said you lived in 319 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 2: the same house as your husband and now you admitted 320 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 2: that he abused her. That would have been game set match. 321 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 2: We would have never seen Naomi again. My wife just 322 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 2: she looked at the prosecutor and said, testify against him 323 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 2: for what. 324 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: Soon the jury in the civil trial negated any leverage 325 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: the state had by awarding the jurisdiction over Naomi to Brenda, and. 326 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 2: In the day she got her back. I had to 327 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 2: move out of the family home because I was still 328 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 2: facing the criminal trial. 329 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: Why are they so determined to get this child away 330 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: from her mother and family. 331 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I have my own opinions about that, and I've 332 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 2: looked at these issues and I've talked to so many 333 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 2: parents over the last twelve years, and honestly, I think 334 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 2: if you follow the money, that's what it's about. When 335 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 2: you put a child into foster care, that state gets 336 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 2: more federal funding. The child abuse pediatrician who accused me 337 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 2: of shaking baby syndrome at the time had a federal 338 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 2: grant from the US Department of Justice to diagnose abusive 339 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 2: head trauma, which is the new term for shaking baby syndrome. 340 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:28,360 Speaker 2: She's the state expert. She was on the payroll for CPS. 341 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,239 Speaker 2: She had grants through CPS. People hear that and they 342 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 2: probably think this guy's a conspiracy theorist, but I'm sorry. 343 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 2: I have the documents to prove it. I couldn't tell 344 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 2: you what their in game strategy is when they do 345 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 2: this to families, but I just know it's happening and 346 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 2: there are thousands of parents and caregivers who are going 347 00:19:47,960 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 2: through this. It's interesting because the detective and CPS asked 348 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 2: if I would take a polygraph test, and I said, absolutely, 349 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 2: sign me up, I have nothing to hide, and then 350 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 2: once we retained an attorney, we never heard back from 351 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 2: him on doing it. So my attorney was like, let's 352 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 2: do a polygraph, and he called, like this guy in Michigan, 353 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,360 Speaker 2: he's the best heated polygraphs for the Michigan State Police. 354 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 2: And he gave me two polygraphs. I passed him, which 355 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 2: was no surprise. I had nothing to hide, but as 356 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 2: you know, those aren't amissible his evidence in court. So 357 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 2: but my attorney just wanted to give that to all 358 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 2: these people, like, hey, you asked him to do it, 359 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 2: here you go, right, But none of that mattered. 360 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: It also didn't seem to matter that by January twenty fifteen, 361 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: shaken baby syndrome had been under heavy scrutiny for over 362 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: a decade, including a biomechanical study that concluded that shaking 363 00:20:54,119 --> 00:21:00,160 Speaker 1: alone does not generate sufficient force to cause subdural hematomas, 364 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,400 Speaker 1: and a necessary force would also cause a spinal injury. 365 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: But similar research and peer reviewed studies were blocked from 366 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: this trial, which made it more of a battle between 367 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: experts from the state who were certain that the retinal 368 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: hemorrhages meant child abuse, and the defense, who said that 369 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: the presence of old and new injuries, illness, and blood 370 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: clotting issues made the retinal hemorrhages an unreliable marker for 371 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 1: child abuse. 372 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 2: To fight these cases, it requires attacking junk science with 373 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 2: real science, and guess what real science puts jurors to sleep, 374 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 2: and the emotional argument wins the day in these cases. 375 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 2: It's tragic, but something happened to this child, and that 376 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 2: just grabs everyone, and you're, yeah, it's tough. 377 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: So despite the defense questioning the state's expert, doctor Moore 378 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: about an email between her and a prestigious optimologist pointing 379 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: to the blood clotting issue as problematic for her conclusion, 380 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: Josh was convicted of second degree child abuse. 381 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 2: I was facing ten years in prison, and it had 382 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 2: been covered in the local Detroit news and there were 383 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 2: over one hundred people outside the courtroom with signs protesting 384 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 2: for me. There was an outcry. I had airline pilot 385 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 2: brothers show up in uniform in the courtroom and the 386 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 2: judge she had to give me a sentence because the 387 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 2: jury found me guilty, and she took what was called 388 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 2: a downward departure and gave me the lightest sentence possible 389 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 2: which was one year in county jail with three years probation. 390 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 1: Again, this is not our typical nightmare, but even one 391 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: day in prison wrongfully convicted is unacceptable. 392 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 2: While I was in jail, I was still facing a 393 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 2: parental rights trial because CPS was still full speed ahead 394 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 2: trying to terminate my parental rights. So I'm in jail 395 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 2: and I'm having to have these conversations with Brenda, like, hey, 396 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 2: they might terminate my print all rights. If that happens, 397 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:04,959 Speaker 2: you just need to let me go and move on 398 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 2: with your life, because I'm not going to ask you 399 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 2: to like, you know, painful phone conversations, you know. But 400 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 2: it was interesting while I was in jail. We were 401 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 2: on the Doctor Phil show. He really advocated for us, 402 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 2: and he brought on a bunch of experts, and my 403 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 2: wife was in studio. I was on a satellite uplink 404 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 2: in my orange jumpsuit. Wow jail, And that was interesting, 405 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 2: especially in jail, because everyone in the jail saw it. 406 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 2: And I would be like walking down the hallway and 407 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 2: an inmate would be like, hey, man, you shouldn't be here, bro, 408 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 2: you got reilroaded. You're going home any day. They all 409 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 2: knew who I was, and they're like high fiving me, 410 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 2: and this just this cut dude. He's like sleeved in 411 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 2: tats and just totally cut. His name was Corey, and 412 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 2: he comes up to me and he goes, hey, man, 413 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 2: I I'm here because I screwed up. He said, I 414 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 2: have somes and I like have stolen for it and everything. 415 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 2: But he goes, man, I watched you on that show 416 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 2: and he said, if anybody so as much just look 417 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 2: see you wrong, I'm going to rip them apart. I'm 418 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 2: just like, whoa buddy, Uh, thank you. But it was 419 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 2: just like even deputies and guards were coming up to 420 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 2: me privately and like saying, hey man, you shouldn't be here, 421 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 2: Like what, how did all this happen? 422 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: Did you recognize that you had a lot of support 423 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: that a lot of people didn't have. 424 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 2: Was that somethinger aware of? Absolutely? Like I could see 425 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 2: I was facing that parental rights trial. First off, the 426 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 2: prosecutor backed off. They were supposed to represent CPS as 427 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 2: the attorneys, and when the Doctor Phil's show came out, 428 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 2: they backed off and said we're not touching this. And 429 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 2: CPS had to hire outside council for my parental rights trial. 430 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 2: And then the judge was in the same posture, like 431 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 2: she defended me then and upheld my parental rights. So 432 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 2: I knew when I got out we were going to 433 00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 2: be putting what's called a family reunification plan. 434 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, the Michigan Innocence Clinic picked up his appellate case 435 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: in September twenty fifteen, arguing that the States case was 436 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,479 Speaker 1: based on junk science and that Josh deserved a new trial. 437 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: But since Josh's defense put on experts who argued this 438 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: at trial, it was decided that he had received a 439 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,439 Speaker 1: fair trial, so the motion was denied. By then, his 440 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: jail time was up. 441 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 2: I get released from jail and I still can't come home. 442 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 2: It's like I gotta go stay with friends. But I 443 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 2: was still super excited because the next morning I was 444 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 2: going to get to see Naomi and I hadn't seen 445 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 2: her for almost two years. Seeing her and holding her 446 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 2: again for the first time, it was just like, oh my, 447 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 2: it was amazing. 448 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 1: Just was she walking? Did she run into your are? 449 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,719 Speaker 2: She was too, so she was two years old. I 450 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,199 Speaker 2: lost all that time with her. And they had a 451 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 2: social worker who helped work with me on this, and 452 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 2: like she said, you have to guard your expectations. She 453 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 2: doesn't know you anymore, like she sees pictures of you. 454 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 2: So it took a little bit of time, Like she 455 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 2: would let me hold her and everything, but I could 456 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 2: see her like looking at me, like what's your deal? 457 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 2: Where have you been? But man, I just soaked it 458 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 2: up and took what I could get and it didn't 459 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 2: take long. And my wife was just incredible during this process. 460 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 2: She just knew and believed in me and stuck by 461 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 2: my side. 462 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: That's amazing. She just sounds like an amazing woman. 463 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, this has traumatized her. I got out of jail 464 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,640 Speaker 2: and like we were planning to have another child. She's 465 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 2: I'm terrified to have another kid. We can't have any 466 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 2: more kids because of how CPS and the police came 467 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 2: and took Naomi. If FedEx shows up or Amazon and 468 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 2: they pound on the door, it triggers us. It's like 469 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 2: we're still on guard. We're in family counseling right now. 470 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 2: My daughter's twelve, but she doesn't know this story yet. 471 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 2: Naomi has autism, she's high functioning. But we're following the 472 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 2: counselor's lead on when and how we tell her this story. 473 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 2: You know, so she's an amazing kid. Again, she's twelve, 474 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 2: and she loves cats, she loves the color pink. She's 475 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 2: just a girly girl. You should see her room, Maggie. 476 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 2: It's incredible. If she met you today, she would say, Hi, Maggie, 477 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 2: do you have any pets? And what's your favorite color? 478 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 2: And she would want to know everything about you. She's 479 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 2: very verbal, very vocal, and she's just again, the best 480 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 2: thing that's ever happened to me. And it's amazing because 481 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 2: my brother, Robert Robertson is also autistic. 482 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 1: Since his release, Josh has become active in the fight 483 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 1: against SBS prosecutions, including in the case of Robert Robertson 484 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: in Texas, who we've covered here. 485 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 2: I see him twice a month down on death Row, 486 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,719 Speaker 2: and when I talk to Robert, it's like we have 487 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 2: this connection, Like I was immediately able to communicate with 488 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 2: him because him and Naomi communicate almost the same way. 489 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 2: Robert is also very verbal. But Robert he knows everyone's 490 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 2: birthdays and he has the dates memorized. What's your birthday, 491 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 2: what's your favorite food, your favorite color? It's oh my gosh. 492 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 2: We just hit it off right away, you know, Naomi. 493 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 2: She knows that Robert is autistic, and every time she says, 494 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 2: please tell Robert that I said hi, and I'm praying 495 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 2: for him. And she knows that Dad's fighting for Robert. 496 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 2: She doesn't know all the details, but Naomi made these 497 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 2: bracelets for everybody. When we did a rally for Robert. 498 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 2: She came up to me one day and said, Dad, 499 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 2: I know you're trying to help Robert, and she knows 500 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 2: about Nicki, his daughter, and she said, Dad, I want 501 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,719 Speaker 2: to help too. I just hugged her and it was like, 502 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 2: what do you want to do? And she said, I 503 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 2: want to know what Nicki and Robert's favorite colors are, 504 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 2: and I want to make bracelets for everybody. And I 505 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 2: had the bag of like fifty bracelets she had made 506 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 2: this rally. There was undreds of people there. I didn't 507 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 2: have enough, but I still wear mine. I show it 508 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 2: to Robert and I'm like, Lord, Willing, will give you 509 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 2: one of these to wear someday. 510 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 3: And you know. 511 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: Josh joined Robert's fight in twenty twenty four. Soon after 512 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: an unprecedented maneuver that saved Robert's life, he was scheduled 513 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: for execution that October. All remedies had been exhausted when 514 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: a bipartisan panel from the Texas Legislature subpoena Robert to 515 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: appear before them after his execution was to take place, 516 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 1: which then forced a stay of the execution while it 517 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: was decided whether or not they could even do that. 518 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: The Texas Supreme Court ultimately said that this maneuver would 519 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: not work a second time. Meanwhile, over thousands of miles 520 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: to the northeast, the Michigan Attorney General Conviction Integrity Unit 521 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: had joined Josh's team in a motion to vacate his conviction. 522 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 2: In November of twenty twenty four, when I was exonerated, 523 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 2: Robert had just been given his second stay of it execution, 524 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 2: and I read an article in the Dallas Morning News 525 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 2: a state representative names Lacey Hull, and she had been 526 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 2: advocating for Robert. I called her office and I said, Hey, 527 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 2: I was just exonerated this week, and I'm hearing about 528 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 2: this guy. I'm here if I can help. I didn't 529 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 2: realize what I was saying, because a month later, Robert 530 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 2: was subpoenaed to testify before the Texas Legislature's Jurisprudence Committee. 531 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 2: He's subpoena to be there, and the Attorney General blocked 532 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 2: him from testifying. So I got a call two days 533 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 2: prior to the hearing asking can you come down and 534 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 2: testify as an exonery for Robert? And it was like, 535 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 2: holy shit, I've never done this, but okay, here we go. Yeah, 536 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 2: of course, yes, I'll come. But I was completely terrified. 537 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 2: I jumped on an airplane and made the quick twenty 538 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 2: five minute flight down, hubered over to the Capitol in 539 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 2: a suit and tie and read the pre planned statement 540 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 2: that I had thrown together, and then I sat there 541 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 2: and was questioned by all these politicians for the next hour. 542 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 2: I didn't realize like that I was going to answer questions, 543 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 2: but that was the first time exonerated that I was 544 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 2: able to use my voice for good. 545 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: How'd that feel? 546 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 2: It felt really good. It felt really good to share 547 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 2: my story and how it lines up with what Robert 548 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 2: has gone through, what he's accused of, and being able 549 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 2: to just say, hey, I'm here to tell you that 550 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 2: this man deserves a new trial. All the evidence needs 551 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 2: to be seen, you know. One of the politicians said, so, 552 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 2: you're not asking us to unlock the cell and let 553 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 2: this man out right now. Huge part of me wanted 554 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 2: to say yes, but I know, we all know, like 555 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 2: the best thing that can happen for Robert and for everyone, 556 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 2: for the entire cause, is for Robert to get a 557 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 2: new trial, for all the evidence to be seen, and 558 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 2: for him to be declared innocent. 559 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: And there's another Texas man named Andrew Rourke whose case 560 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: is also significant. He too had been convicted under an 561 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: SBS prosecution in a case where the child did not die. 562 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: He did thirteen years of a thirty five year sentence, 563 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: and it took him twenty seven years to be exonerated. 564 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: Andrew was kind enough to speak with us my case. 565 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 4: For a long time, a Laurier would tell me, I'm 566 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 4: not sure if we can get there. He kept going 567 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 4: back and forth. Luckily I was in Dallas County where 568 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 4: they actually started the integrity unit, and it seemed like 569 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 4: for a long time nobody wanted to really pull the 570 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 4: trigger on it. But I finally got exonerated and I 571 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 4: got found actual innocent. 572 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: His exoneration comes from the re examination of the state's 573 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: expert testimony that was based in what we now know 574 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: to be an untested hypothesis being treated as scientific theorem. 575 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: The state's expert had to recant her testimony, and she 576 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: is also one of the main expert witnesses in Robert 577 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: Robertson's case. 578 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,479 Speaker 4: What I tell people is, had the child died in 579 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 4: my case, I'd be right next to him on death row. 580 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 4: It's unbelievable. Hell easy it is to get in that 581 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 4: kind of trouble when you can't explain what happened to 582 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 4: your kid. 583 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, Robert was granted his third stay of execution in 584 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: October twenty twenty five, and his case was remanded to 585 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,239 Speaker 1: the trial court to consider the new scientific evidence in 586 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: his case under Texas's junk science law. 587 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 2: You know one thing too, Maggie. The Texas Criminal Court 588 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 2: of Appeals in their ruling when Robert got his stay, 589 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 2: it says that what happens in Robert's case from here 590 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 2: on out will be considered solely on ex parte Rourke. 591 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 2: So the Rourke decision, Andrew Rourke's case is what allowed 592 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 2: Robert to get his stay of execution. Wow, and so 593 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 2: it's incredible like Andrew's case paved the way for our 594 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 2: other brother. 595 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: Tell me how you met Andrew. 596 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 2: So we officially met at the Seattle Innocence Network conference. 597 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 2: We were first year of ZONERIES because Andrew and I 598 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 2: were dexonerated three days apart in November of twenty twenty four, 599 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 2: and it just so happens that we live within an 600 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 2: hour of each other here in Texas. So I had 601 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 2: reached out to Andrew before that time, like I knew 602 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 2: who he was. I follow all these cases and didn't 603 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 2: hear anything back. But then shortly before the conference I 604 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 2: heard from him. He said, are you going to be there? 605 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 2: I said, I'm going to be there? All right? We 606 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 2: got to meet. 607 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 4: If it wasn't for my wife pushing me to go 608 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 4: to Seattle and get involved in this stuff, I would 609 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 4: have never known how many people are affected by all 610 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 4: this that have been wrongfully convicted. 611 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 2: I ended up sitting at the table with him and 612 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 2: his wife Kelly at all the events, and we just 613 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:55,280 Speaker 2: hung out and we shared our stories and just obviously 614 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,239 Speaker 2: there was just this immediate connection with him, because you're 615 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 2: talking to like a brother who just gets it. 616 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 4: We all have a connection by going through absolute hell 617 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 4: with all this, and in our cases children being involved. 618 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 4: It's always looked at as I guess more evil. 619 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: It's very emotional. 620 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 2: It's like it triggers people, the. 621 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 4: Way people look at you and just judge you right 622 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 4: away for just hearing what you're accused of or convicted 623 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:28,760 Speaker 4: of or whatever. 624 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,319 Speaker 2: So many similar experiences, and. 625 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,880 Speaker 4: Then we got a request to do an interview. We 626 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 4: met Dan Schleppi in there, and he's the one that 627 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 4: kind of got us in a group. I guess at 628 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 4: that time he was going to do a podcast with 629 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 4: Lester Holt about Robert Robertson. And that's when I got 630 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 4: the idea, like, I'm comfortable in this setting, and I 631 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 4: really like this setting, and I love Josh. 632 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: It seems that after their experience with the great Dan 633 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 1: Sleppion and Lester Holt, Josh and Andrew decided to make 634 00:35:58,920 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: their own podcast. 635 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 2: Unshaken Truth is the name of this podcast, and we're 636 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 2: going to focus on Robert's case the issues surrounding shaken 637 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:14,240 Speaker 2: baby syndrome, and our first guest will be author John Grisham. 638 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 2: He's currently writing a book about Robert. And we're going 639 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 2: to talk to subject matter experts, attorneys, advocacy groups, other exonarees, 640 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 2: some lawmakers here in Texas who want to make changes, 641 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 2: just to bring awareness to everyone that what happened to 642 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 2: Andrew and I and Robert can happen to anyone. 643 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,800 Speaker 1: We'll be linking to your podcast in the episode description, 644 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 1: as well as ways people can stay tuned to Robert's case. 645 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: And with that, I'm going to leave the mic open 646 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 1: for anything else y'all want to tell our audience. 647 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 2: Before all this happened, I felt like if somebody was 648 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,240 Speaker 2: in court and they were before a jury, they probably 649 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 2: deserve what they had come into them. I'm ashamed that 650 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 2: it took this happening to me and my friend and brother, 651 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 2: Andrew Rourke, my brother Robert Robertson. It's like lifted the 652 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 2: scales off my eyes. I feel like I bought into 653 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 2: a narrative that doesn't hold water. I'm ashamed that this 654 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 2: is what it took to soften my heart and to 655 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 2: see the truth of life's not that simple. Things aren't 656 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 2: that simple. It's changed my view on the death penalty. 657 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 2: Robert's an innocent man, and we're going to fight for him. 658 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 2: One of the things that has become a battle cry 659 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 2: for me. When my feet hit the floor in the morning, 660 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,320 Speaker 2: I say, for those who can't, I am fighting, Andrew 661 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,919 Speaker 2: is fighting. We are fighting for those who can't. When 662 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,879 Speaker 2: I was a convicted felon, I felt like I didn't 663 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,400 Speaker 2: have a voice. But the University of Michigan Innocence Clinic 664 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 2: was my voice. They fought for me when I couldn't. 665 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 2: So if you're out there and you feel like you 666 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 2: don't have a voice, we hear you, and we are 667 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 2: here to fight for you, and we will not stop 668 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 2: fighting for you. For Robert, for all these people who 669 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 2: are waiting for justice. 670 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. 671 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and 672 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: Kathleen Fink, as well as executive producers Jason Flamm, Jeff Kempler, 673 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 1: Kevin Burtis, and Jeff Clyburn. The music in this production 674 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 675 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us across all social media platforms 676 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,719 Speaker 1: at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can 677 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: also follow me on all platforms at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful 678 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a production of Lava for 679 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: Good podcast in association with the Signal Company Number One. 680 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 2: We've worked hard to ensure that all facts reported in 681 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 2: this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed by 682 00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 2: the individuals featured in this show are their own and 683 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 2: do not necessarily reflect those of Love of Her Good