WEBVTT - How Old Barnwell Got Built 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.800 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:04.920 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:06.320 And when I find my ball. 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:09.320 In a brid Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg Friday, 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.559 Frida Egg Egg, fridagg Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:35.320 to run off of the golf course game. Welcome to 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:38.880 the Frida Egg Golf Podcast. I'm Garrett Morrison, and today 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:41.960 we're digging into the story behind one of the most 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:46.800 buzzed about new golf courses in America. I'm talking about 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:51.839 Old Barnwell near Aiken, South Carolina. This Brian Schneider and 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:55.680 Blake Conant design has received rave reviews since opening for 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:58.640 preview play last year. I got to play it on 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:01.720 the Sunday before the Masters, and I can confirm that 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:06.000 it is an incredibly inventive work of golf architecture and 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:08.960 just a fun course to play. But another thing that 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:11.560 makes Old Barnwell stand out in the current crop of 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:14.240 new private golf clubs, and there are a lot of them, 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:17.640 is it's vision for itself. This is a club that 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:20.680 wants to have a positive impact on the world, and 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:24.240 in this episode we'll talk about how feasible it is 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:26.839 to have that kind of impact with a golf club. 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:30.400 I realized that this idea of a mission focused club 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:34.640 might provoke some skepticism, so we'll adjust that. My guest 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:38.080 is Nick Schreiber. Nick is the founder of Old Barnwell, 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:41.360 and this is really his passion project. He's there all 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:43.200 the time, he was there the day that I played it. 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:46.839 This is really his baby, So I'm looking forward to 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:49.200 digging into the nitty gritty of how he got this 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:52.640 thing built and what he hopes it'll become. First, though, 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:56.920 let's talk a little bit about good Walk Coffee. I 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:00.640 was super excited to hear that we were partnering with Goodwalk. 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:03.760 This is a company that I've admired from Afar ever 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:07.440 since they launched in twenty nineteen, and it's really a 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:09.760 company that sits right at the nexus of my two 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:15.400 big interests, coffee and golf. Goodwalk was founded by coffee 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:18.520 nuts who also happen to be golf nuts, and they're 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:22.400 very serious about applying the golf values of fair play 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:25.919 and honesty to the way that they conduct their coffee business. 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:29.520 They buy high grade beans from around the world at 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:34.000 fair market prices from farmers who follow sustainable practices and 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:38.119 pay good living wages to their workers. And importantly, these 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:42.120 beans happen to be very very good. Specifically, the Frida 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:46.240 Egg Golf blend is delicious. That's right. We have our 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:50.359 own blend with Goodwalk. It's a bright and vibrant organic 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:54.760 coffee roasted to a medium light level. It has beans 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:58.560 from Central and South America blended with a naturally processed 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:03.079 coffee from Ethiopia to create a balance of milk, chocolate, 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:07.280 and berry flavors. It's what I've been drinking recently. Absolutely 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:11.520 love it. So go to Goodwalkcoffee dot com slash fried 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:15.040 egg and use the code fried egg at checkout to 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:18.720 save twenty percent on your entire order. Or you can 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:22.440 use the same code to start a coffee subscription that 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:25.480 will save you thirty percent on your first order and 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:29.240 then you'll save ten percent on all future shipments. You 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:32.640 can pause, skip, or cancel your subscription at any time 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:37.960 on the website. So again, Goodwalkcoffee dot com slash fried Egg. 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:44.320 Check it out all right? So I am here with 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:49.240 Nick Schreiber. Nick, how did the first Masters Week at 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:52.280 Old Barnwell go? That's a big deal for clubs in 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:54.240 the ach in South Carolina area. 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:57.800 You know, for not having a clubhouse, a lodge, or 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:00.360 really a team of more than five or six folks, 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:02.680 I think we acquitted ourselves quite well. I hope our 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:06.280 guests felt that way. I think, like other you know 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:08.920 clubs in the area, you know, we open it up 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:10.880 to the public and we charge an arm and a leg. 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:14.160 I think we have the advantage that, you know, basically 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:17.960 the money we make during that week or eight days 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:22.000 basically helps fund our mission programming. And so you know, 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:24.719 we were able to We didn't we didn't hit halfway, 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:26.560 but we got very close to hitting half of our 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:29.520 mission programming budget for the next twelve months. So we 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:31.960 were very lucky. We were grateful to have all the 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:35.680 guests coming out there. And I will say that like 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:38.040 there's like mini golf celebrities. It's really fun to see 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:40.719 like you know, like a Bob Ford or something like 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:44.000 that that like only point zero zero zero one percent 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:48.200 of the population would have any you know, would care 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:50.280 about it all. But it was fun. I really enjoyed it. 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.000 Yeah, you should try to get as many people out 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:55.760 there who were on those old trading cards as possible. 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:58.120 I feel like that and put the put the cards 0:04:58.200 --> 0:04:59.960 up in the in the clubhouse. That would be great. 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:04.200 My understanding is that you got your start in golf 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:06.160 by being a caddie. 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:09.480 I think cadding is the best job I've ever had, 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:12.680 you know, as a thirteen fourteen year old to walk 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:14.679 away with At the time, I think I was making 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:17.760 thirty five dollars a loop in cash plus like a 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:20.719 candy bar Minnesota was you know, you felt like you 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:24.440 were robbing a bank. And to do it outside and 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:26.760 you know, to meet the people that you get to meet. 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:30.960 And so for me, catting is still such a central 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:33.640 part of how I understand the game of golf. And 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:36.719 I mean I look back at those times quite finally, 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:38.599 and the courses that I got to caddy at North 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:42.919 of Chicago were pretty fantastic, though I didn't fully appreciate 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:44.840 it at the time because you're a little focused on 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:49.480 just not dropping somebody's clubs or you know, making mistakes. 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:51.560 How did you get into it in the first place. 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:54.960 So in my family, I'm one of eight kids, and 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:57.360 in our family, you know, my father did not grow 0:05:57.400 --> 0:05:59.640 up with much and so he and my parents have 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:02.599 been very successful together. But it didn't matter, you know, 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:04.200 in our family was like when you turn thirteen, you 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:07.400 get a summer job. And so I washed dishes and 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:11.120 at a local restaurant and caddie and that was just 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:13.839 the easiest. There was very little application, you know, I 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:16.400 didn't have to interview. You basically show up for training 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:18.120 and then they kind of let you go out. And 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:22.680 after that first summer, I was at Old Elm basically, 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:25.160 you know, which was a fifteen minute twenty minute bike 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:27.600 ride from where I grew up. So I would go there, 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:30.839 you know, basically every weekend and would we you know, 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:32.920 during the summer, would be able to get loops you know, 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:35.840 pretty much every day of the week. And so it 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:39.039 was just a very easy transition into never having worked 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:40.479 before into having a job. 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:44.599 So let's fast forward a little bit. What led you 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:48.120 down the path of becoming the founder of a golf club. 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:52.159 You're not You're not a career long golf industry type, 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:54.440 and so what got you to this point? 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:57.640 Yeah, No, I had no business doing this, and I 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:00.920 think that my awareness around that has has served us 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:03.200 quite well, I think because it means that we really 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:05.560 focus on getting people who do know what they're doing. 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:08.040 But basically it does kind of start with that caddy 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:12.680 mentality and the opportunity that it gave me. And you know, 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:14.640 my colleagues. I don't know if you can call fellow 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:16.720 caddies or colleagues. It sounds a little too fancy, but 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:19.600 basically that always stuck with me, and I fell in 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:21.120 love with the game of golf. After that. My father 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:24.200 did not play, and so at that point my brother 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:27.800 and I started to convince him to play. And though 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:29.600 I was never a great golfer, by the time that 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:32.800 I was in my professional career, golf had done something 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:34.560 very similar to what it had done for me when 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:37.240 I was a caddy. I was meeting people that benefited 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:39.880 my I was worked at a software company and I 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:42.960 ran sales, and so you're starting to meet clients or 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:47.360 potential partners and eventually, you know, you know, the private 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:49.720 equity group that purchased us. You know, some of those 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:52.800 relationships were honed on the golf course. And so that 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:54.640 just always stuck in my mind as something that this 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:56.800 is a game that we all love, but it's way 0:07:56.840 --> 0:08:00.160 more powerful than people, I think give it credit. So 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:02.680 you know how I got into this. You know, I 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:06.680 mentioned this earlier and I think it's really important to acknowledge. 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:10.200 So my parents have been remarkably successful. And so when 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:14.040 we sold our business, you know, and I've told this story. 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:16.280 I don't love telling this part of the story, but basically, 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:20.760 I was the last kind of co founding executive standing 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:22.360 at the company when we sold it, and I stuck 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:25.440 around for the transition. They merged us with a portfolio 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:28.080 company of theirs, and then I actually went to treatment. 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:30.280 So I had a substance abuse problem and a drinking 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:34.240 problem that i'd hid pretty effectively for a long time, 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:36.640 and so I actually went away and I had to 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:38.640 get myself right. And as you can imagine, this is 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:41.520 not a fun thing to talk about, particularly when I 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:45.760 had an eleven month old at the time, and you know, 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:47.920 you turned your life upside down. But when I got 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:51.400 back and you know, uncertain about what's going to happen, 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:54.280 really in every category of my life, I was in 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:57.920 this really unique and fortunate position one to have a spouse, 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:02.200 my wife, Sarah, who encourage me to consider what it 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:04.120 was that I wanted to do to make you know 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:06.560 that I would be happy, you know, passionate about doing 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:09.240 because as much as I love starting a business. We're 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:11.800 an HR tech, don't I don't love performance reviews or 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:15.800 you know, employee engagement surveys, right, And so that kind 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:18.240 of led me to consider something along those lines. And 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:22.040 then yes, like my kids at two boys now, they 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:24.920 are not they are taken care of because of the 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:26.640 success that my parents have had. There's no other way 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:28.280 to say it. And so it allowed my wife and 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:32.240 I to really think about or, in this unique and 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:36.120 fortunate position financially, to do something as crazy as starting 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:40.800 at golf club. And so that's really the genesis behind 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:43.720 just the conversation starting between Sarah and myself. 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:49.440 You've described Old Barnwell before as a mission focused club, 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:54.080 So what is the mission here and why is that 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:55.000 so critical to you? 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:57.160 Sure? Well, I'll take a step back and kind of 0:09:57.160 --> 0:09:59.640 say that in the beginning, you know, when I kind 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.520 of brought up these ideas to Sarah, I didn't know 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:04.000 if it'd be a golf club. I mean we talked 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.440 about doing a par three course, something public, something private, 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:08.840 like there were so many different options on the table, 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:13.480 and I think that at the heart of all those uh, 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:16.920 you know, options, was this idea of doing something that 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.719 would make an impact on the community, as cliche as 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:21.760 that sounds, and so as we kind of refine the 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:24.280 ideas around it, you know, I'll go back to my 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.440 catting experience and then the experience that as I got 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:29.800 older and you know, having the opportunity to play some 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.120 of you know, not a ton, but some of the 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.920 best clubs or you know, private courses in the country. 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:38.880 You know, you realize that all great private clubs have 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:42.200 two things at their disposal that they can use to 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:44.640 impact their community in a positive way. And the first 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:48.120 is the golf course itself, whether that's you know, literally 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:52.679 providing a space for people to network, to being a 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:55.000 you know, a location where you can have charity events 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:58.520 that benefit great causes. And then the second thing, which 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:01.280 is much more important, is the members. You know, every 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:05.120 great golf club has successful and a diverse array of 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:07.880 experience within their membership that they can again bring to 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:11.320 bear to benefit those in the community around them. And 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:13.640 so that when we kind of thought about that, we 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:16.080 realized that we could do something a bit different. And 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:18.679 so the mission is, you know, broadly stated, to bring 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:20.920 people together through golf, and what that means for us 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:24.920 is creating a community of members that's a bit more 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:26.960 inclusive than you might see. So when I say inclusive, 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:28.720 I'm not just talking about women or folks of color. 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:32.640 I'm talking about beginners or families. Really kind of expanding 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:35.320 the tenth around that. And then the other component, of course, 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:37.600 is then taking those members in the course and putting 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:41.360 into good use for programs that you know, for I 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:44.679 mean programs that support or celebrate groups that are generally 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:48.160 underrepresented or underserved in the game. So that's kind of 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:49.319 the idea behind it. 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:53.000 You know, most people wouldn't think of founding a private 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:58.120 club as a way to have an impact on the world, right. 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:03.360 In fact, a lot of people consider that idea somewhat 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:07.600 off putting, right or or almost ridiculous, Like a private 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:09.680 golf club, really, this is this is the way that 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:12.080 you're going to do it. So so why why do 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:12.600 you think. 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:14.480 Of it that way? So I think it does kind 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:17.280 of I think those two components that private golf clubs 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:21.760 have that public off courses don't are really powerful, you know, 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:25.920 the idea that a public golf course doesn't have that 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:29.679 that like, basically the dedicated membership that that we can 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:31.880 kind of lean on, so like in our process, basically 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:34.959 as part of our membership process. You know, we say, hey, 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:37.360 we're trying to create this exceptional golf experience, and we're 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:39.520 trying to offer it at a reasonable price. But in return, 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:43.240 we're asking you to commit to participation. And so we're 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:45.080 getting that buy in from members in a way that 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:47.440 you wouldn't. It would be much tougher to do when 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:50.199 you're dealing with the broader public. Now, I will also 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:53.120 say that that those critics or those skeptics, are entirely 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:55.599 correct in their skepticism. Right. The idea of an inclusive 0:12:55.720 --> 0:13:00.240 private club is oxymoronic. It doesn't make any sense. But 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:04.160 our thought was, well, golf does a lot of great things, 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:05.760 or can do a lot of great things, and this 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:08.959 is one idea that that we felt really comfortable with, 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:11.880 you know. And then you know, from like a like 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:15.079 a you know, nuts and bolts perspective, the idea of 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:18.400 a private club. You know, we're not again, it's not 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:22.079 cheap at all, but with initiation and dues being significantly 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.240 below what the market would bear, you know, it's not 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:29.560 like we're we're not making money, right, but I will 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:33.880 say that that does like extinguish some of the risk. 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:37.079 So knowing that we could raise. You know, I think 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:42.319 we've raised five million dollars through initiation fees so far 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:45.000 with three hundred and thirty members, maybe a little bit 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:47.960 more than five million. That is a fraction of what 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:51.520 it costs to build a golf club, let alone to 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:55.640 operate it moving forward. But you know, just from a 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:58.199 you know, you can't do a whole lot of good 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:00.800 with a golf course or a golf that isn't functioning, 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:04.040 and so the idea of that helping us diminish the 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:07.760 risk at the front of the process is an important 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:08.160 part too. 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:14.200 You've kind of addressed why the private golf club idea 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:18.800 was more powerful or appealing than a public golf course. 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:21.840 But I wonder if you could maybe talk a bit 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:26.120 more about why you didn't choose to build a public 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:29.040 golf course. Did you ever think of going that route 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:31.560 as you were making this decision? 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:35.600 Sure, we did, and I think where we kind of 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:39.840 fell short and moving in that direction, I guess. You know. 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:42.600 So I live in Charleston, South Carolina, and like a 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:45.720 lot of other cities in the Southeast, you can't you 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:48.000 can't get on a wait list for the private clubs 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:51.760 around here, and even if you want to go to 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:55.080 the Charleston UNI. You know, you got to get up early, 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:56.920 two weeks in advance. You know, it's like it's tough 0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:58.480 to get a tea time, and there's not a lot 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:00.760 of great affordable public options around here. And so when 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:03.320 we thought about that, we thought, okay, well, let's maybe 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:05.960 we could create a public course in the area that 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:08.720 would serve everybody, and you know, we could keep it cheap. 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:11.120 But then you realize that, you know, if you're going 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:13.960 to buy two hundred plus acres near a city center 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:17.880 that's within driving distance, I mean, I think there's a 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:23.880 golf club going up outside of Charleston now and they 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:26.200 paid eleven and a half million dollars for I think 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:28.760 four hundred and fifty acres. That's a lot of money. 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:31.400 And again that puts you in the hole immediately, and 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:33.800 it puts a lot of pressure on Okay, now we 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.960 got we got to turn a profit, so that sixty dollars, 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:39.960 you know, you know green speed that you're kind of 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:42.520 hoping to stay at or under it, like you're like, oh, well, 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:44.400 maybe we have to make it seventy five or eighty, 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:47.560 and then the compromises begin. And so then we thought 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:49.360 about well, what if we did like a par three course, 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:53.320 And again some of that became there's not so much 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:56.560 in an economy of scale around developing eighteen holes or 0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:58.960 thirty six holes like you'd think that there would be, 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:03.160 but there really aren't. But I will say that the 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:07.400 what's the phrase, the juice wasn't worth the squeeze in 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:10.560 terms of the amount of effort and infrastructure you have 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.040 to build for any golf facility for it to be 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:19.320 kind of effective, and to do that I think would 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:21.600 have it just couldn't have had the same impact I 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:23.400 think that we can have. So the idea of doing 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:26.000 a private club where you've got members that can come 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:28.720 from all over the country. You know, this national membership 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:30.560 model is popular for a lot of reasons, but for 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:34.800 us it was ideal because again, we have people that 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:37.440 we can we can provide this experience that are bought 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:39.240 in on this mission, that are willing to pay again 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:41.640 a not insignificant amount of money, but they're not going 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.400 to be there every day, and it allows us to 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:48.080 kind of build a club that is efficient, Like right 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:50.560 now we have a very small team will continue to 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:52.840 grow as we add the clubhouse and the lodge which 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:55.720 is both which you are under construction, but we're also 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:57.440 as a result of the kind of the path that 0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:00.640 we took, we can now invest more heavily and more 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:03.840 quickly in our kids course, which we'll have you know, 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:06.600 public access certain days of the week, and we'll help 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:09.240 programming for our mission. You know. It allows us to 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:12.240 think about building a third course down the line, maybe 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:15.200 more soon, sooner than we had anticipated, which again we 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:17.240 can provide up public access or do charity events or 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:21.399 things like that. So it's a very complicated thing, but 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:23.640 in our mind we try to keep it as simple 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:25.480 as possible. And we realized that we can get a 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:28.600 bigger bank for our buck if we if we took 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:31.760 the route of a private club that wasn't you know, 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:35.040 twenty five minutes from Charleston or thirty minutes from Charlotte 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:38.119 or Atlanta, but kind of in a great place that 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:41.200 was maybe in the middle of nowhere, but two hours 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:44.320 to everywhere sort of thing. And that's what turned out 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:45.640 to be. I mean, if we had found the land 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:47.840 in central Georgia, we would have bought it, but it 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:50.520 happened to be in Akin, South Carolina, which was a great, 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:51.000 great thing. 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:55.720 If you're imagining where Old Barnwell might be ten or 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:59.520 twenty years from now in terms of fulfilling its mission 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:03.840 or having some kind of impact on the community or 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:08.040 the world. What exactly would the club be doing, what 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:11.160 would the programming be, and what would be the kind 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:16.239 of mechanisms of making change or kind of having a 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:19.439 positive impact in the world. What what would those mechanisms be. 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:22.000 Sure, So I think that I kind of look at 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:24.640 it in two ways. The first way is within our 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:27.919 own programming the outcomes that we're trying to drive. And 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:29.840 so we've been open, you know, our eighteen holes have 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:32.800 been open for nine months now, for almost nine months. 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:35.879 And so for example, our partnership with the Evan Scholars Foundation, 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:39.439 which is a youth caddy organization. You know, I was 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:41.200 thinking that we might have ten or twelve caddies when 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:44.919 we opened. We now have one hundred plus caddies. We 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:47.400 have one hundred and twenty. Who have you gotten three 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.760 or more loops that's produced you know, fifteen hundred loops 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:54.240 overall and probably two hundred grand in the like local 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:57.560 economy of kids, you know, like we to talk about, like, 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:00.000 you know, how much it costs to take a loop 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:03.000 plus you know, tips and then some of those opportunities. 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:06.919 So like we measure our programming in those ways, and 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:09.200 in five years, I would like to have not only 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:11.080 a large group of caddies, but a group of caddies 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:12.280 that are really good at what they do and we've 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:14.920 provided their ample training and we're giving them the right 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:17.399 connections to our members. And the same is true with 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:20.320 our partnership with you know, Vorhees, which is the local HBCU, 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:23.880 with the Anaka Foundation, and our aspiring female pros. So 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:26.240 in each of those cases, without going into a ton 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:28.639 of detail about them, we have these grand plans, right, 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:30.920 but really we want to start small and in five 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:33.800 ten years, if those relationships work out well, then we'd 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:35.720 like to expand those programs a little bit by a 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:40.000 little bit and maybe even add different mission partners along 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:44.120 the way, you know. And I think frankly, we've learned 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:45.720 a lot in some of the relationships that we've tried 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:48.360 to build and haven't worked, and so that next five 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:50.880 to ten years will be really important as we make 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:53.199 sure that again you know, get the most bang for 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:55.280 our buck and really kind of make an impact. But 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:58.639 more broadly, in five or ten years, what I would 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:02.680 love love to see is other clubs in the Southeast, 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:05.080 for example, where there's not really a culture of youth caddies, 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:07.800 they see this and they realize that not only is 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:09.800 this a service for their members, but it's a service 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:11.960 for the kids in their community. And it can be done, 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:14.919 you know, by partnering with Evan Scholars. It can be 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:16.960 done in a way that's really hands off, like they 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:19.320 do everything, they do all the work. Or if we 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:23.840 can have a program that supports for aspiring female pros 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:27.200 each year in Aiken, South Carolina, Like you can make 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:30.800 one work in Jacksonville, you can make one work in Scottsdale. 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:34.720 So that is all that to say. It'd be really 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:36.879 really great if what we've been able to do and 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:38.719 learn from our mistakes, and you know, if we can 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:40.640 transfer those to other clubs that are interested in doing 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:42.800 the same things, because none of the nothing that we're 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:46.320 doing is a new idea, not like nothing. They all 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:48.560 come from other places. A lot of these you know, 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:50.080 a lot of clubs are already doing these things. We 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:53.399 just have the benefit of we're like a laboratory. We 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:56.560 can build it from the ground up and hopefully we 0:20:56.600 --> 0:21:02.040 can kind of again, provide some sort of framework to 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:04.800 export it to other clubs that are interested in doing 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:05.720 some of the same things. 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:09.640 Yeah, I mean, in building the club, you're being unusually 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:14.960 explicit and intentional about what your goals are with it. 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:17.919 And it seems like you might have recognized early in 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:21.320 your life that golf clubs are kind of these incredible 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:26.720 concentrations of power. On the one hand, like power and money. 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:31.400 Successful people often belong to golf clubs and they're all 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:36.160 in that same place, and presumably that can be harnessed 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:38.720 in some way. They're also passionate about what they're doing there, Right, 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:41.600 Golfers are passionate, and they spend a lot of time 0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:46.000 with this activity at this club. And it appears to 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:47.920 me and I wonder if you see it this way, 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:54.040 that you're just trying to capture some of that energy 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:58.600 and power and push it to some ends that you 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:00.520 yourself for a passion about. 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:05.879 You know, I'm active. I'm on the board of the 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:08.320 First Tee here in Charleston, and what I love about 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:11.120 the First t is that it's basically like a trojan 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:14.199 horse for youth development. I mean, yes, golf is like 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:16.880 the idea behind it, but really it's not so much 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:19.600 about golf for the participants, and I think the same 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:21.080 is true for some of the things that we're doing, 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:24.320 Like our caddies, many of them have never step foot 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:27.199 on a golf course before, and they probably won't end 0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:29.640 up playing much golf, but they're getting to meet members 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:33.320 who can really It sounds cliche or maybe sounds overblown, 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:35.400 but like, I think it's really true, like they can 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:39.360 change the trajectory of an individual's life. And the same 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:41.439 is true with some of our other mission partners. And 0:22:41.480 --> 0:22:46.720 so I think that selfishly, like I'm having the absolute 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:50.560 time of my life doing this, and I love golf 0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:53.000 and I love what it can provide. And so there's 0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:55.720 that component like I like, this is not I am not, 0:22:56.000 --> 0:22:58.600 Like we are not Mother Teresa doing something for the 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:00.720 goodness of others out of the goodness of our hearts. 0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:02.199 We're having so much fun and we get to be 0:23:02.200 --> 0:23:04.160 a part of something like who wouldn't want to work 0:23:04.200 --> 0:23:06.320 with Brian Schneider and Blake Conant and see the drawings 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:10.320 they come up with and walk land with them. But yeah, 0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:12.040 I mean I think that this is a great way 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:15.480 to harness. Again, what I think every great golf club 0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:18.920 has and just putting it to good use. And again, 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:22.080 I think a lot of when I started this process, 0:23:22.240 --> 0:23:25.320 I think I came into it really of the opinion 0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:29.280 and I think incorrectly that all these golf clubs are 0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:31.719 like so traditional and it's all this and that, and 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:34.600 like they have no interest in, you know, doing a 0:23:34.640 --> 0:23:36.840 lot of the things that you know, we talk about doing. 0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:38.960 And then as you get to know people within the industry, 0:23:39.040 --> 0:23:41.760 you realize that some of the most traditional, you know, 0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:44.480 the thing the places that people think of as the stodgy, 0:23:44.640 --> 0:23:49.080 you know, backwaters of you know, nineteen twenties, you know, 0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:52.120 access like they're doing some of the most impressive work. 0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:54.560 I mean, I think like august National, I think is 0:23:54.600 --> 0:23:57.600 a great example of that. You know, they've got their 0:23:57.600 --> 0:24:00.880 own history, and I think they recogniz that and they 0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:03.840 have done more in the last twenty five years than 0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:06.280 I think. I really think that any other golf organization 0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:09.520 to truly grow the game. Like when we talk about 0:24:09.560 --> 0:24:11.639 drive chip and put, when you talk about the Women's 0:24:11.640 --> 0:24:14.359 Amateur to say nothing of they don't ask for credit, 0:24:14.359 --> 0:24:16.040 but the amount of money that they invest in the 0:24:16.040 --> 0:24:19.560 community in Augusta, whether that's with the United Way or 0:24:19.600 --> 0:24:23.040 other organizations. It's absolutely incredible, and they're not asking for 0:24:23.119 --> 0:24:25.440 any credit on those things. Like you know, we talk 0:24:25.440 --> 0:24:28.040 about the patch, which is a really exciting thing that 0:24:28.040 --> 0:24:31.000 they're doing, but there's so much beyond the surface, and 0:24:31.040 --> 0:24:33.520 so to me, you know, shame on me. I think 0:24:33.600 --> 0:24:35.280 coming into this, I would have thought that they were, 0:24:35.960 --> 0:24:37.840 you know, a lot of what's wrong with private golf, 0:24:38.720 --> 0:24:41.640 and now I realized that they are. Probably they're they're 0:24:41.680 --> 0:24:43.520 the best example of what golf can do to make 0:24:43.560 --> 0:24:44.680 an impact on a community. 0:24:45.480 --> 0:24:47.800 The patch project that you just referred to, by the way, 0:24:48.080 --> 0:24:53.280 is for Augusta municipal golf course, where Augusta National is 0:24:53.320 --> 0:24:57.280 partnering with the First Tea and a local community college. 0:24:57.320 --> 0:25:00.800 I believe too. Yeah, I guess a tech right to 0:25:01.240 --> 0:25:05.480 renovate the patch, and they've hired Tom Fazio and Bowwelling 0:25:05.520 --> 0:25:07.840 to carry out that work. That's certainly a story that 0:25:07.960 --> 0:25:11.000 that we'll be following in fried Egg. But in any case, 0:25:11.320 --> 0:25:13.639 I want to get into a bit more of the 0:25:13.760 --> 0:25:17.000 nuts and bolts of building this club. Now that we've 0:25:17.080 --> 0:25:19.080 kind of talked about it on a on a high 0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:24.359 level philosophical kind of way, let's let's get into how 0:25:24.400 --> 0:25:27.840 this actually happened, how you how you pulled it off right, 0:25:27.920 --> 0:25:29.960 or how you're continuing to pull it off, because it's 0:25:29.960 --> 0:25:37.640 obviously ago. What came first. Hiring an architect or finding 0:25:37.640 --> 0:25:38.600 the piece of land. 0:25:40.280 --> 0:25:45.439 They happened simultaneously. And so I started looking online. So 0:25:45.480 --> 0:25:49.240 I have you know, I still subscribe to this map 0:25:49.560 --> 0:25:53.960 application mobile app where you can. I mean, it's pretty 0:25:53.960 --> 0:25:56.040 simple stuff. I'm sure a lot of real estate agents 0:25:56.080 --> 0:25:59.280 have this. But I could see parcels, the size of 0:25:59.280 --> 0:26:03.000 the parcels, the soil types with some degree of accuracy, 0:26:03.119 --> 0:26:06.439 the topography, all of that stuff. And so, you know, 0:26:06.480 --> 0:26:09.119 without really saying anything to Sarah as we were kind 0:26:09.119 --> 0:26:10.800 of talking about these things, I couldn't help myself, Like, 0:26:10.800 --> 0:26:13.240 I started to look at land. And then at the 0:26:13.280 --> 0:26:15.440 same time she said, okay, well be the first step, 0:26:15.440 --> 0:26:17.639 and I said, identifying a good piece of property. And 0:26:17.640 --> 0:26:19.640 then I realized to do that. You know, I can 0:26:19.640 --> 0:26:22.480 look online as long as I want, but really I 0:26:22.520 --> 0:26:26.120 needed somebody like Brian and Blake, Brian Schneider and Blake 0:26:26.160 --> 0:26:29.040 Conan to actually be the judges of what was good land. 0:26:29.080 --> 0:26:31.640 And sure enough, you know, so I met with them 0:26:31.680 --> 0:26:34.320 and it was very informal. We did not have any contract. 0:26:34.840 --> 0:26:39.159 It was handshakes. Brian happened to live on Daniel Allend 0:26:39.160 --> 0:26:44.320 here in Charleston, and so we met and you know, 0:26:44.480 --> 0:26:46.359 they said, sure, we'll come and look at properties with you, 0:26:46.480 --> 0:26:48.080 and you know, kind of take it from there. And 0:26:48.080 --> 0:26:49.800 I think from their perspective it was probably a good 0:26:50.080 --> 0:26:53.320 business development tactic, even though, and I think I told 0:26:53.320 --> 0:26:57.840 this pretty early on, like they were who I wanted anyway, Like, 0:26:58.080 --> 0:27:01.680 you know, having read some Brian's essays, having listened to 0:27:01.800 --> 0:27:06.000 him and Blake, talked to you and Andy, you know, 0:27:06.040 --> 0:27:08.520 it was clear to me that they were at the 0:27:08.520 --> 0:27:12.879 top of the list for me. So basically, after that conversation, 0:27:13.080 --> 0:27:15.080 if I found a piece of property that I thought 0:27:15.119 --> 0:27:17.320 was good, I would go visit it. If I thought 0:27:17.320 --> 0:27:20.080 it was good enough to warrant, you know, telling them 0:27:20.119 --> 0:27:21.880 about it, I would and then they would come down, 0:27:21.880 --> 0:27:23.760 and you know, I jerk around about this, but like 0:27:23.800 --> 0:27:25.200 they would come down, they tell me why I was 0:27:25.200 --> 0:27:27.399 an idiot, and I would go back to looking for 0:27:27.440 --> 0:27:29.919 a new piece of property. And over time I kind 0:27:29.920 --> 0:27:31.560 of learned what it was that they were looking for 0:27:31.680 --> 0:27:35.959 that goes beyond just like sandy soil and you know, 0:27:36.119 --> 0:27:40.600 land movements, it's more than that. And so you know, 0:27:40.600 --> 0:27:44.400 it took about, I would guess, eighteen months to find 0:27:44.400 --> 0:27:47.520 the piece of property that we did, and I remember 0:27:47.560 --> 0:27:50.000 Brian came down and it was not a great The 0:27:50.080 --> 0:27:52.280 shape of the parcel originally was not great. It was 0:27:52.320 --> 0:27:55.320 originally four hundred and forty four acres and it would 0:27:55.359 --> 0:27:57.359 have been tough to route because it kind of came 0:27:57.440 --> 0:28:00.320 together a couple of pinch points. And Brian, you know, 0:28:00.320 --> 0:28:02.320 as we're walking around and said, I don't care, get it, 0:28:02.400 --> 0:28:05.840 we'll figure it out. And sure enough, you know, they 0:28:05.960 --> 0:28:08.439 almost immediately started routing golf holes on land that we 0:28:08.440 --> 0:28:11.080 didn't known, and so we kind of had to go 0:28:11.119 --> 0:28:14.440 from there. But yeah, it really started with both kind 0:28:14.440 --> 0:28:16.120 of looking for land and hiring Brian and Blake. 0:28:16.720 --> 0:28:19.760 Why Brian and Blake at the time, they didn't have 0:28:20.119 --> 0:28:25.639 any original regulation eighteen hole designs to their name, correct, 0:28:25.720 --> 0:28:28.199 and so you know, a lot of developers might might 0:28:28.240 --> 0:28:31.800 see this as a risk. Obviously, I knew that they 0:28:31.800 --> 0:28:34.359 were a great choice, you know, you know, people who 0:28:34.440 --> 0:28:37.640 are who are really into golf architecture knew that these 0:28:37.640 --> 0:28:40.480 guys should be at the top of any list. But 0:28:41.200 --> 0:28:43.560 why was it that you went with them and were 0:28:43.560 --> 0:28:47.120 willing to kind of take what many people would interpret 0:28:47.200 --> 0:28:48.040 as a risk with them. 0:28:48.920 --> 0:28:53.120 So again, because we're in this really unique and fortune position, 0:28:53.640 --> 0:28:57.240 we could take the long approach. We were not talking internally, 0:28:57.320 --> 0:28:59.360 like my wife and I about like a short term 0:29:00.160 --> 0:29:03.320 profitable business plan. We were talking about something a little 0:29:03.360 --> 0:29:08.080 bit different. And so to me, you know, there's obviously 0:29:08.160 --> 0:29:11.240 a ton of value in the name associated with you know, 0:29:11.280 --> 0:29:12.960 like back in the day, I mean, you know, having 0:29:13.000 --> 0:29:15.760 grown up when like the Tom Fazio real estate development 0:29:15.800 --> 0:29:18.040 was like such a bit. I mean, that's that's what 0:29:18.480 --> 0:29:20.520 That's how you make money, right, you sell real estate 0:29:20.560 --> 0:29:24.320 connected to a brand name. But I think that we 0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:27.800 didn't want that. We wanted a really fun and interesting 0:29:28.840 --> 0:29:32.440 golf course. And you know, I've told Brian and Blake this, 0:29:32.480 --> 0:29:34.520 But originally so my idea was that I wanted to 0:29:34.520 --> 0:29:37.200 build thirty six holes, and the first course I wanted Brian, 0:29:37.240 --> 0:29:38.880 and the second course I wanted Blake. But it turns 0:29:38.880 --> 0:29:41.160 out that I was I reached out to Blake via 0:29:41.200 --> 0:29:44.880 Golf Club atlass before I met Brian, and then the 0:29:44.880 --> 0:29:46.720 first thing he said was, oh, well, if you're in Charleston, 0:29:46.720 --> 0:29:48.440 you should meet Brian. So I was like, okay, perfect. 0:29:49.600 --> 0:29:51.960 And then they you know, having worked together at Hollywood, 0:29:51.960 --> 0:29:55.960 Atlantic and other places, you know, I give him a 0:29:55.960 --> 0:29:58.560 ton of credit. They asked if they could work together 0:29:58.800 --> 0:30:02.560 on it and so and I you know, so that 0:30:02.680 --> 0:30:04.480 was for the first course, and then Brian is the one, 0:30:04.560 --> 0:30:07.520 Brian and Blake. But Brian came to me and said, hey, 0:30:07.520 --> 0:30:09.360 before we get to the next eighteen, what about doing 0:30:09.360 --> 0:30:10.720 a kid's course? And I was like, well, what's a 0:30:10.800 --> 0:30:12.760 kid's course? And so he told me all about that, 0:30:12.880 --> 0:30:16.520 and you know how they have these places in Scotland 0:30:16.520 --> 0:30:20.920 that are truly for the kids. So like, at some 0:30:20.960 --> 0:30:23.080 point it became clear that Brian and Blake were not 0:30:23.120 --> 0:30:24.560 just hired for the first one, they were going to 0:30:24.560 --> 0:30:28.400 do everything on the property. And I think that what 0:30:28.520 --> 0:30:32.880 began is just you know, me being a how would 0:30:32.880 --> 0:30:37.720 I say, a very amateur you know, golf course architecture nerd, 0:30:38.680 --> 0:30:41.840 and having read the books and listened to the interviews, 0:30:42.200 --> 0:30:44.640 like their philosophy just seemed to jove and plus I 0:30:44.720 --> 0:30:47.040 think the biggest thing for me was I just wanted 0:30:47.040 --> 0:30:49.480 to create something that was unique. And if you look 0:30:49.520 --> 0:30:53.280 at the greens that you know, Brian's famous for those 0:30:53.320 --> 0:30:56.000 are really unique greens. And then when you know, Blake 0:30:56.040 --> 0:30:58.800 on your podcast talked about I mean, you talked about 0:30:58.800 --> 0:31:00.760 a lot of things, but the sense of play, and 0:31:01.720 --> 0:31:03.640 you know, we wanted to be a good steward within 0:31:03.680 --> 0:31:06.320 the community, then we better be of the community. And 0:31:06.400 --> 0:31:11.040 so you know, to have those kind of philosophies come 0:31:11.080 --> 0:31:14.240 together was really like it's perfect. And so to me, 0:31:14.280 --> 0:31:16.320 I didn't worry about the long term value because I 0:31:16.400 --> 0:31:18.240 knew that there was going to be a market of 0:31:18.360 --> 0:31:20.960 nerds like you know, you and me that would love 0:31:21.000 --> 0:31:24.280 to see a course by Brian and Blake, and the 0:31:24.320 --> 0:31:25.720 rest of the world would figure it out sooner or 0:31:25.800 --> 0:31:28.080 later if they did what I thought they would be 0:31:28.120 --> 0:31:30.239 able to do, which is what has been greatfully, very 0:31:30.400 --> 0:31:30.959 very true. 0:31:35.320 --> 0:31:37.400 All right, let's take a quick break here to talk 0:31:37.480 --> 0:31:41.640 about USGA memberships. For more than one hundred and twenty 0:31:41.640 --> 0:31:44.680 five years, the USGA has been working to ensure that 0:31:44.840 --> 0:31:48.440 golf has a strong future, and for almost fifty years, 0:31:48.800 --> 0:31:51.440 USGA members have given back to the game they love 0:31:51.960 --> 0:31:55.920 by supporting programs and initiatives that affect every aspect of 0:31:55.960 --> 0:32:00.920 the game, including junior golf. Environmental sustainability, the history of 0:32:00.960 --> 0:32:04.640 the game, and some of the biggest championships in the sport. 0:32:04.840 --> 0:32:07.240 On top of making a difference to the future of golf, 0:32:07.720 --> 0:32:11.160 USGA members also get a number of great benefits, including 0:32:11.280 --> 0:32:14.720 a US Open or US Women's Open member hat, a 0:32:14.760 --> 0:32:19.840 personalized member bag tag, a subscription to USGA's Golf Journal, 0:32:20.240 --> 0:32:23.040 and much more. You two can give back to golf 0:32:23.080 --> 0:32:27.120 and get back some awesome benefits by visiting USGA dot 0:32:27.240 --> 0:32:33.840 org slash fried Egg and becoming a USGA member today. 0:32:35.960 --> 0:32:40.600 You know, involving Brian and Blake in the site selection 0:32:40.800 --> 0:32:47.760 process was a very smart decision and also an unusual one. 0:32:47.840 --> 0:32:53.000 Maybe in golf development. Maybe it's maybe it's less unusual now, 0:32:53.160 --> 0:32:57.160 but usually when architects come into a project, the piece 0:32:57.200 --> 0:32:59.360 of land is selected and they just kind of work 0:32:59.400 --> 0:33:03.720 with it. And it sounds like Brian and or Blake 0:33:04.200 --> 0:33:08.000 went with you to view a few different sites and 0:33:08.240 --> 0:33:11.120 were able to tell you one that you might have 0:33:11.200 --> 0:33:16.280 thought was really looking good actually wasn't suitable for what 0:33:16.320 --> 0:33:19.880 you wanted to do. So I'm curious about what you 0:33:20.040 --> 0:33:23.280 learned in that process. Were there any kind of big 0:33:23.320 --> 0:33:27.080 surprises or revelations that came up for you when you 0:33:27.120 --> 0:33:28.920 were looking at a piece of land and you thought 0:33:28.960 --> 0:33:31.520 it looked great, but Brian came over and said, actually 0:33:31.560 --> 0:33:34.360 that doesn't work for reasons X, Y, and Z. What 0:33:34.480 --> 0:33:35.720 did you learn in that process? 0:33:36.240 --> 0:33:38.840 I learned a lot, I think, And my guess is 0:33:39.240 --> 0:33:40.920 I've only worked with Brian and Blake, so I'm sure 0:33:40.920 --> 0:33:43.400 that it's different in each case. And my guess is 0:33:43.440 --> 0:33:46.360 that you know they're in a unique position given their 0:33:47.000 --> 0:33:49.000 the work that they continue to do with Renaissance golf 0:33:49.040 --> 0:33:52.760 design on their own and alongside Tom Doak, that you 0:33:52.800 --> 0:33:54.760 know they've seen some really good sights and they've also 0:33:54.760 --> 0:33:56.880 worked on sites that are not great, but they're not 0:33:56.920 --> 0:33:59.479 in a position where they feel like they need to know. 0:33:59.640 --> 0:34:02.160 They were very honest about what was good and what wasn't. 0:34:02.200 --> 0:34:04.440 They weren't like angling for the job in a way 0:34:04.480 --> 0:34:07.000 that I think some understandably as somebody who comes from sales, 0:34:07.080 --> 0:34:08.879 like I get it, like if I want a job, 0:34:08.920 --> 0:34:11.120 like I'm gonna tell yeah, this this land looks great, 0:34:11.160 --> 0:34:14.440 let's let's do it. But the first piece of property 0:34:14.440 --> 0:34:16.560 that I brought them down to, I had spent like 0:34:16.719 --> 0:34:18.840 four or five days on my own just walking around 0:34:19.520 --> 0:34:21.680 and it was a bit It was like five hundred acres. 0:34:21.840 --> 0:34:24.480 It had a lake at the bottom. There was some 0:34:24.520 --> 0:34:26.880 swampy areas and wetlands that we probably wouldn't have, you know, 0:34:26.880 --> 0:34:29.200 couldn't have touched. But there was some land movement. Was 0:34:29.320 --> 0:34:34.040 very sandy. And when they visited, they actually showed up 0:34:34.080 --> 0:34:36.840 maybe three hours before I showed up that day, and 0:34:36.880 --> 0:34:39.200 by the time I was walking towards them, they were 0:34:39.239 --> 0:34:40.920 walking up and like you could tell, like they were 0:34:40.960 --> 0:34:43.840 just shaking their heads, like yeah, you know. And I 0:34:43.840 --> 0:34:45.480 think the way that they described it was they could 0:34:45.480 --> 0:34:47.960 build a good golf course there, but they couldn't build 0:34:47.960 --> 0:34:51.600 a great one. And their rationale was a few things. One, 0:34:52.040 --> 0:34:55.640 so some of it was like just completely logistical, common 0:34:55.680 --> 0:34:58.440 sense stuff that I wasn't thinking of. One, you know, 0:34:58.480 --> 0:35:02.640 that property owned eight of the shoreline of that you know, 0:35:02.880 --> 0:35:05.359 fifteen acre lake at the bottom of the property, but 0:35:05.360 --> 0:35:07.040 it didn't know on the other twenty percent, and that's 0:35:07.040 --> 0:35:11.879 an issue. Two the land there was some good land 0:35:11.960 --> 0:35:16.160 movement and probably sixty to seventy five feet of elevation change. 0:35:16.480 --> 0:35:19.239 It was almost all in one direction going down to 0:35:19.280 --> 0:35:22.799 that lake, and you know, you want it doesn't matter 0:35:22.800 --> 0:35:25.600 if you've got five feet or one hundred feet for 0:35:25.719 --> 0:35:27.920 playing to go up and down, and you know the 0:35:27.920 --> 0:35:29.680 way that they would want to round it. They needed 0:35:29.719 --> 0:35:32.840 something more than that, something more diverse than that. The 0:35:32.880 --> 0:35:36.360 other thing is, which I thought was really surprising, but 0:35:36.960 --> 0:35:39.239 you know, they, I guess in blake In, particularly given 0:35:39.280 --> 0:35:42.239 as fine er background, they think of golf courses in 0:35:42.239 --> 0:35:46.480 this like narrative sense, and so they wanted different environments 0:35:46.520 --> 0:35:49.200 to work within throughout the course. And so what ended 0:35:49.280 --> 0:35:51.680 up happening at Old Barnwall is we've got, you know, 0:35:51.680 --> 0:35:53.319 a bunch of holes that kind of play in and 0:35:53.360 --> 0:35:56.080 around a central valley with no trees, and then a 0:35:56.080 --> 0:35:59.239 few holes that wind through you know, mature pines, and 0:35:59.239 --> 0:36:00.640 then a couple of hole that are on the edge 0:36:00.640 --> 0:36:02.879 of the property that are almost in and I guess 0:36:02.880 --> 0:36:04.719 we've lost a little bit of the original look but 0:36:05.040 --> 0:36:08.399 like prairie and so you know, that's not the only 0:36:08.440 --> 0:36:10.799 thing that dictates the narrative of the routing for them, 0:36:10.800 --> 0:36:12.759 but it's part of it. And so that was a 0:36:12.800 --> 0:36:15.680 really that first property where they kind of walk me 0:36:15.680 --> 0:36:18.279 through all that stuff was really enlightening. The other thing 0:36:18.320 --> 0:36:20.680 I will say is that one of the reasons I 0:36:20.719 --> 0:36:22.719 thought that that property was really good is because there 0:36:22.760 --> 0:36:25.440 were very few trees and so I could see the 0:36:25.480 --> 0:36:27.960 land movement. They can see the land movement when it's 0:36:27.960 --> 0:36:30.840 covered in trees. You know, it's not just looking at 0:36:30.560 --> 0:36:33.560 the topo maps, because those are pretty accurate, but they're 0:36:33.600 --> 0:36:35.839 not always accurate. But more than that, like they can 0:36:35.920 --> 0:36:39.520 they can really like the valley. There's a sixty five 0:36:39.520 --> 0:36:42.040 foot drop in the valley at Old Barnwell where we 0:36:42.160 --> 0:36:45.320 did end up building the course, and that was covered 0:36:45.320 --> 0:36:47.279 in like ten to twelve year old pines, so not 0:36:47.320 --> 0:36:50.160 tall pines, but it was covered and it looked mate. 0:36:50.200 --> 0:36:52.279 I mean for me, I would have guessed it was 0:36:52.280 --> 0:36:54.880 like a twenty or twenty five foot valley and it 0:36:55.000 --> 0:36:57.600 was huge, and they knew that and they saw the 0:36:57.760 --> 0:36:59.840 I mean I remember the second time we were on 0:37:01.000 --> 0:37:04.280 Brian and Blake took me probably about twenty five yards 0:37:04.320 --> 0:37:07.480 from the first tee and said, looking out into the trees, 0:37:07.680 --> 0:37:10.000 like this is going to be your clubhouse, Like this 0:37:10.040 --> 0:37:12.600 is where you're going to see everything. And sure enough, 0:37:12.600 --> 0:37:14.919 and it's probably one hundred and fifty feet away from 0:37:14.960 --> 0:37:17.640 where that you know porch is going to be. It's 0:37:17.680 --> 0:37:20.440 just incredible. So they just have the ability that I 0:37:20.600 --> 0:37:24.719 a visual the vision that I just don't have. So 0:37:24.800 --> 0:37:27.799 that's another component is understanding that no matter what I see, 0:37:27.840 --> 0:37:28.760 they see something different. 0:37:29.360 --> 0:37:33.680 So aside from that view from the clubhouse position on 0:37:33.760 --> 0:37:37.480 the current piece of land, and aside from the narrative 0:37:37.520 --> 0:37:40.440 consideration of there are different sections of this property that 0:37:40.520 --> 0:37:45.160 are routing, can explore what to them was good about 0:37:45.200 --> 0:37:47.480 the site that you ended up choosing. 0:37:48.360 --> 0:37:51.080 So you know, they talked was there's certainly some sand 0:37:51.320 --> 0:37:53.759 and I think Brian's talked about this. You know when 0:37:53.760 --> 0:37:56.560 you look at Sand Valley, like that's sand, that's sandy soil. 0:37:57.040 --> 0:37:59.960 Aiken's got you know, a lot of sandy soil, but 0:38:00.040 --> 0:38:04.120 it's also got play. And so they and seeing the 0:38:04.160 --> 0:38:07.640 different pieces of property, you know, we could do again, 0:38:07.680 --> 0:38:09.400 we can do soil testing and all that stuff, but 0:38:09.400 --> 0:38:11.840 you can get a pretty good sense of Okay, this 0:38:11.920 --> 0:38:14.600 is really sandy here and this part isn't so sandy, 0:38:14.600 --> 0:38:16.040 but can we work around this or like you know, 0:38:16.080 --> 0:38:21.320 so they take those things into consideration. Certainly, I think 0:38:22.160 --> 0:38:24.719 certainly the size of the parcel is really important, and 0:38:24.760 --> 0:38:27.400 so you know, I was looking at anything over four 0:38:27.520 --> 0:38:30.840 hundred yards or four hundred acres, and again that original 0:38:30.840 --> 0:38:35.080 parcel was four hundred and forty sum acres. And you know, 0:38:35.360 --> 0:38:38.440 they were pretty explicit that like this is great, get it, 0:38:38.760 --> 0:38:41.520 but also you're going to need more. And so they 0:38:42.200 --> 0:38:44.280 we were trapesing through the land that we weren't buying. 0:38:45.160 --> 0:38:47.160 You know, we were reaching out to neighbors and asking 0:38:47.200 --> 0:38:50.400 if we could just take a look. And that also 0:38:50.480 --> 0:38:53.440 is really interesting because you know, they're thinking about the 0:38:53.440 --> 0:38:56.359 eighteen holes certainly, but they're also thinking much farther down 0:38:56.400 --> 0:38:59.400 the line in terms of infrastructure, in terms of you know, 0:38:59.440 --> 0:39:02.239 we're just a part like you know, what does the 0:39:02.360 --> 0:39:05.080 entrance road look like? You know, here in Charleston, we 0:39:05.160 --> 0:39:08.040 joke around the like Yamen's Hall is a good example 0:39:08.040 --> 0:39:10.640 of this, like the longer the entrance and the smaller 0:39:10.680 --> 0:39:12.680 the sign outside, the better the club is going to be. 0:39:13.320 --> 0:39:16.719 And I'm not joking. So like the front, I don't know, 0:39:16.760 --> 0:39:19.360 one hundred acres maybe nine hundred, maybe seventy five acres 0:39:19.400 --> 0:39:22.320 of our property that front's Andrew Circle. The street that 0:39:22.360 --> 0:39:25.719 we're on is pretty flat, and they like that. They 0:39:25.800 --> 0:39:27.440 liked that you could kind of come in and then 0:39:27.440 --> 0:39:31.000 there's this big reveal so that's unrelated to the routing. 0:39:31.000 --> 0:39:32.759 That has everything to do with the infrastructure and kind 0:39:32.760 --> 0:39:34.840 of the overall property. And again I give them a 0:39:34.840 --> 0:39:37.719 ton of credit because I would definitely was not thinking 0:39:37.719 --> 0:39:38.160 about that. 0:39:38.760 --> 0:39:42.839 What was your role during the construction process? 0:39:44.520 --> 0:39:48.160 I signed checks? I mean I really, you know, early on, 0:39:49.040 --> 0:39:51.560 so Morgan Purvis, who is on our team, was the 0:39:51.600 --> 0:39:54.279 first person that I hired, and he's a jack of 0:39:54.280 --> 0:39:58.800 all trades. He's been our membership director, our partnership director. 0:39:58.800 --> 0:40:00.200 I mean, he's gone a whole bunch of things. Really 0:40:00.239 --> 0:40:03.320 in the beginning was just us and and Brian and Blink, 0:40:03.680 --> 0:40:06.279 and we had a deal with the potential, you know, 0:40:06.400 --> 0:40:08.360 somebody to take over as director of gronmy or to 0:40:08.360 --> 0:40:10.000 start as director of agron me who had a fair 0:40:10.000 --> 0:40:15.319 amount of construction experience, somebody with a great reputation, and 0:40:15.680 --> 0:40:18.200 for some reason it just didn't work out and he 0:40:18.280 --> 0:40:21.520 backed out, and you know, no hard feelings. We kind 0:40:21.520 --> 0:40:23.080 of understood that he was he was a little concerned 0:40:23.080 --> 0:40:24.799 about the risk and the fact that to you know, 0:40:24.840 --> 0:40:28.560 tweedled and tweedledumb we're running the show. But so like, 0:40:28.719 --> 0:40:33.000 really the extent of my involvement was I hired a 0:40:33.040 --> 0:40:36.520 Timber Company to clear some of the land and that 0:40:36.520 --> 0:40:38.279 didn't work out so well. So like despite giving them 0:40:38.280 --> 0:40:41.560 GPS coordinates, like they started clearing land that like is 0:40:41.600 --> 0:40:44.080 now to the right of our ninth t that like 0:40:44.880 --> 0:40:48.319 they were not supposed to clear. And so that's a 0:40:48.320 --> 0:40:51.080 good example of like why Morgan and I should not 0:40:51.120 --> 0:40:53.680 be doing these things. And so when we did, we 0:40:53.680 --> 0:40:56.120 were introduced to and I don't I still don't understand 0:40:56.120 --> 0:40:58.360 how this happened, but he's now our general manager. But 0:40:58.440 --> 0:41:01.120 John Levell was the person that we ended up hiring 0:41:01.160 --> 0:41:03.520 as our director of agronomy, and he you know, had 0:41:03.640 --> 0:41:06.280 helped I mean, he was the project manager and built Congarrie. 0:41:06.800 --> 0:41:09.040 He was the director of agronomy at Congree and a 0:41:09.120 --> 0:41:12.080 Diamond Creek where he lived. And before that he was 0:41:12.640 --> 0:41:14.840 you know, part of Tom Fazzio's team that came in 0:41:14.840 --> 0:41:18.719 a two thousand at Augusta National to Tiger Proof and 0:41:18.719 --> 0:41:20.840 he ended up staying there for six years, seven years. 0:41:21.080 --> 0:41:23.400 So this is a guy with not only great experience, 0:41:24.080 --> 0:41:27.200 but when he saw what we were doing with like 0:41:27.239 --> 0:41:29.399 the clearing, he's like, we got to call Green Tea 0:41:29.400 --> 0:41:31.480 and Augusta they're they're they're great. They can do this, 0:41:31.520 --> 0:41:33.960 They're doing half the price, you know, like all that stuff. 0:41:34.040 --> 0:41:36.839 So basically at that point it was kind of hands off, 0:41:37.480 --> 0:41:39.440 and which is the way it should have been. I 0:41:39.480 --> 0:41:41.040 mean I had to say yes or no to some 0:41:41.080 --> 0:41:43.880 of the you know, when we had to we had 0:41:43.880 --> 0:41:46.200 to line our irrigation pond, for example, and that's like 0:41:46.239 --> 0:41:48.839 a super expensive part of the process was building up 0:41:49.239 --> 0:41:51.600 you know, spy makers. It's ten to twelve feet deep, 0:41:52.600 --> 0:41:54.680 and then we built half of it and it started 0:41:54.680 --> 0:41:58.160 to leave, you know, it was the water level was, 0:41:58.400 --> 0:42:01.600 you know, going down substantially, and so we had to okay, 0:42:01.640 --> 0:42:03.200 are we going to try to find the whole orre 0:42:03.200 --> 0:42:04.799 we just going to align it and understand that that's 0:42:04.840 --> 0:42:07.040 the best investment for long term. And so to have 0:42:07.080 --> 0:42:11.280 somebody like John who had experience with those types of decisions, 0:42:11.680 --> 0:42:14.759 I felt much more comfortable saying, Okay, let's spend more 0:42:14.800 --> 0:42:17.040 money now because I really do think that it'll save 0:42:17.120 --> 0:42:19.400 us money in the long run. And sure enough, you 0:42:19.440 --> 0:42:22.880 know that's been the case. Because I haven't made I 0:42:22.880 --> 0:42:25.160 haven't played much of a role in the construction side 0:42:25.160 --> 0:42:26.120 of things. 0:42:26.320 --> 0:42:28.200 So you were pretty hands off when it came to 0:42:28.239 --> 0:42:32.040 the design of the golf course itself. Why do you 0:42:32.080 --> 0:42:36.920 think that owners or clients do get more involved in 0:42:37.000 --> 0:42:39.080 that side of things. Did you ever have like a 0:42:39.120 --> 0:42:42.080 moment during the project when you were like, you know, 0:42:42.120 --> 0:42:44.719 I kind of understand why somebody might want to be 0:42:45.400 --> 0:42:47.560 more active here, but I'm not going. 0:42:47.480 --> 0:42:50.040 To do that. Sure, I mean, I think and I'm 0:42:50.040 --> 0:42:53.040 starting to feel it now because we're you know, we're 0:42:53.080 --> 0:42:55.759 thinking about a third course or you know about the 0:42:55.880 --> 0:42:59.759 third course, and so having experience now the first one 0:42:59.840 --> 0:43:01.600 and the building, it's like, oh, it'd be fun to 0:43:01.680 --> 0:43:03.879 do that, Like, well, I really like this part of 0:43:04.440 --> 0:43:07.080 you know, the original course. But I'm not a great 0:43:07.080 --> 0:43:09.480 player and I've never been a great player. And so 0:43:09.600 --> 0:43:11.880 I think when you look at here's the Sabonic, I, 0:43:11.960 --> 0:43:14.480 the Pescuti, Piscucci or I don't. 0:43:14.320 --> 0:43:17.719 Know, Michael Pascucci, I think yes, and I think he's 0:43:17.760 --> 0:43:19.320 like an exceptional golfer. 0:43:19.360 --> 0:43:23.120 And I think a lot of these owner developers are 0:43:23.200 --> 0:43:26.120 great golfers, and so they they've earned the right to 0:43:26.320 --> 0:43:28.600 think about these things in a way that I don't. Like, 0:43:28.760 --> 0:43:30.680 I really am only thinking about it in terms of 0:43:30.680 --> 0:43:34.880 a six or seven handicap, and I don't know, like 0:43:34.920 --> 0:43:37.400 I don't. I just I am very much aware that 0:43:37.480 --> 0:43:40.480 I don't know enough to have an opinion that matters. 0:43:40.640 --> 0:43:43.279 I guess, like and now maybe I do, I have 0:43:43.400 --> 0:43:46.279 more of one. I think the hardest part is that, 0:43:46.600 --> 0:43:48.400 you know, as we grew our membership, and so we 0:43:48.440 --> 0:43:51.719 had seven holes open for a time for previewpoint. We 0:43:51.760 --> 0:43:53.839 had we called it the Upper Loopers holes one through 0:43:53.840 --> 0:43:56.239 five and seventeen and eighteen, and it was just we 0:43:56.520 --> 0:43:58.920 tried to grasp a certain amount of holes so that 0:43:58.920 --> 0:44:00.600 our members could have something to play before we open 0:44:00.640 --> 0:44:04.040 the full eighteen. And you know, inevitably, and I think 0:44:04.040 --> 0:44:06.759 this is actually great. Our members are really candidate about 0:44:06.760 --> 0:44:10.600 their feedback, and you know, the overwhelming response was so positive, 0:44:10.920 --> 0:44:12.400 but there are some people that say, well, you know, 0:44:12.440 --> 0:44:14.359 this green just you know, it doesn't seem the same 0:44:14.360 --> 0:44:17.359 as the other greens. And so my struggle is as 0:44:17.400 --> 0:44:20.399 a people pleaser by nature, and also as somebody who 0:44:20.480 --> 0:44:24.320 has taken those people's money, is how do I balance 0:44:24.560 --> 0:44:27.160 their opinions with the opinions of Brian and Blake, who 0:44:27.200 --> 0:44:30.200 are the true experts and know a heck of a 0:44:30.200 --> 0:44:34.480 lot more than those members. I mean, now, even experts 0:44:34.480 --> 0:44:37.279 can be wrong, and I think like any course will 0:44:37.280 --> 0:44:41.279 make adjustments over time. But I think, you know, the 0:44:42.239 --> 0:44:45.200 limited changes that we have made since that opening seven 0:44:45.239 --> 0:44:49.000 holes have been kind of a compromise between what Brian 0:44:49.040 --> 0:44:51.160 and Blake like. They're not going to compromise on their 0:44:51.239 --> 0:44:55.200 their strategy period like water management and strategy are. You 0:44:55.400 --> 0:44:58.120 cannot mess with that in terms of their vision, or 0:44:58.160 --> 0:45:01.480 at least I'm not going to. But they hear, they listen, 0:45:01.600 --> 0:45:04.920 and so they're willing to make some minor adjustments, and 0:45:05.800 --> 0:45:08.080 you know that's I think that's a great way to 0:45:09.440 --> 0:45:13.160 listen to your quote unquote audience. But also it's not 0:45:13.239 --> 0:45:15.840 least sight of like we're hiring them for a reason, 0:45:15.920 --> 0:45:18.440 like you don't want me putting you know, telling you 0:45:18.480 --> 0:45:20.799 where to put a bunker or you know how wide 0:45:20.800 --> 0:45:24.120 that fairly should be. I just I'm not smart enough. 0:45:24.160 --> 0:45:26.040 I don't have the experience. I'm not as well traveled 0:45:26.719 --> 0:45:31.160 as you know Brian's. You know, Brian's been fifteen times 0:45:31.239 --> 0:45:32.319 more places than I'll ever be. 0:45:32.920 --> 0:45:37.440 So that's tricky though, isn't it, Because like the golf 0:45:37.480 --> 0:45:41.000 course is for the members, right, golf courses are for 0:45:41.040 --> 0:45:43.480 the players, and if they enjoy it, then they enjoy it. 0:45:43.520 --> 0:45:47.080 If they don't enjoy it, then I guess by definition, 0:45:47.160 --> 0:45:49.799 there must be something wrong with it. Right, I'm not 0:45:49.840 --> 0:45:53.319 talking about old Barnwell, I'm talking about golf courses in general. Right. 0:45:53.760 --> 0:45:58.000 If the players don't like something about it, then it's 0:45:58.040 --> 0:46:01.279 almost like the customer is never wrong, except that we 0:46:01.360 --> 0:46:04.200 all know that sometimes the customer is wrong, and that 0:46:04.360 --> 0:46:08.879 often when it comes to matters of taste in golf architecture, 0:46:09.320 --> 0:46:16.320 golf architects often have the most sophisticated perspective on those things, 0:46:16.760 --> 0:46:19.880 and maybe some of those features that players don't like 0:46:20.000 --> 0:46:23.640 initially will grow on them over time and eventually become 0:46:23.719 --> 0:46:26.600 some of their favorite features. So it must be really 0:46:26.640 --> 0:46:32.320 hard to negotiate that complexity as a decision maker within 0:46:32.360 --> 0:46:35.440 a club, because on the one hand, yes, you acknowledge 0:46:35.480 --> 0:46:37.680 that the course is for the players, but on the 0:46:37.680 --> 0:46:43.240 other hand, you acknowledge that the architects probably have better 0:46:43.280 --> 0:46:46.080 ideas about golf architecture than the average player. 0:46:46.400 --> 0:46:49.319 So we have members that are members that marry in 0:46:49.480 --> 0:46:55.439 and Augusta National and Chicago Golf, and they expect, maybe 0:46:55.440 --> 0:46:57.200 not the finer things, So I think they're all down 0:46:57.239 --> 0:47:00.680 to earth. They're great members, but they experience. It's something 0:47:00.719 --> 0:47:04.000 that is truly remarkable in their home clubs, right, And 0:47:04.080 --> 0:47:06.920 so I think what was really important for us in 0:47:06.960 --> 0:47:11.240 the early stages is to set the right expectations about 0:47:11.239 --> 0:47:13.719 what we were here to do. And I think that 0:47:14.160 --> 0:47:17.960 you know, the benevolent dictator, you know, the ability as 0:47:18.000 --> 0:47:21.680 a sole owner to make decisions and not have to 0:47:21.680 --> 0:47:24.400 go through committee is hugely beneficial and something like this. 0:47:25.360 --> 0:47:27.600 But also I think we benefit from the fact that, 0:47:28.080 --> 0:47:31.720 again we are not cheat, but we are well below 0:47:31.760 --> 0:47:34.640 what we could charge and as a result, we kind 0:47:34.680 --> 0:47:36.319 of you know, it's like, listen, if you're not happy, like, 0:47:36.320 --> 0:47:38.600 we'd be happy to sell that membership to somebody else 0:47:38.600 --> 0:47:40.520 who's going to be more impactful for the mission, and 0:47:40.560 --> 0:47:42.560 we can charge more than we charge view you know. 0:47:43.000 --> 0:47:45.319 So I think that that it's not certainly the way 0:47:45.320 --> 0:47:47.919 that we would behave, but it's it's in the back 0:47:47.920 --> 0:47:50.120 of our minds. If people aren't happy with it, you know, 0:47:50.160 --> 0:47:52.480 that's okay, that's we understand. It's not for everybody. I mean, 0:47:52.520 --> 0:47:55.560 I think, you know, particularly with Brian and Blake, you know, 0:47:55.680 --> 0:47:58.719 my again with zero direction from my perspective other than 0:47:58.800 --> 0:48:01.080 to build something that they thought would be you know, 0:48:01.120 --> 0:48:04.160 something they wanted to build, Like, of course I knew 0:48:04.160 --> 0:48:05.879 that it's not going to be for everybody, and it's 0:48:05.880 --> 0:48:08.000 going to be I mean, like I don't really care 0:48:08.040 --> 0:48:11.799 where people, you know, what side of the tobacco road, 0:48:12.040 --> 0:48:15.200 you know, controversy argument you're on, like is it great? 0:48:15.280 --> 0:48:17.799 Is it not great? I don't really care because to me, 0:48:18.160 --> 0:48:20.000 what that course does is it makes you think and 0:48:20.040 --> 0:48:21.799 it you know, I love that there are people that 0:48:21.840 --> 0:48:24.560 do or don't like it because they're actually talking about 0:48:24.600 --> 0:48:26.239 architecture in a way that they would never talk about 0:48:26.320 --> 0:48:28.480 architecture if they're just playing your ho home course down 0:48:28.520 --> 0:48:31.560 the street. And so to me, I think that by 0:48:31.600 --> 0:48:36.319 setting those expectations, we've appealed to a membership that was 0:48:36.360 --> 0:48:40.839 totally open to a unique set of greens or some 0:48:40.880 --> 0:48:44.239 features that might be too severe for you know, a 0:48:44.280 --> 0:48:46.960 regular country club. I don't know, I think. And again, 0:48:47.200 --> 0:48:50.680 we're still so early in this process that there will 0:48:50.680 --> 0:48:54.359 continue to be complaints from members and some of them 0:48:54.360 --> 0:48:57.040 will be well founded, like there's a green that maybe 0:48:57.040 --> 0:48:59.399 could use a little softing, or I mean, the same 0:48:59.440 --> 0:49:01.480 is gonna be true with our clubhouse in our lives, 0:49:01.560 --> 0:49:03.480 Like it's never going to be perfect, but we can 0:49:03.520 --> 0:49:06.160 always try to make it perfect or make sure our 0:49:06.200 --> 0:49:08.600 members understand that, hey, this is this is here for 0:49:08.600 --> 0:49:09.000 a reason. 0:49:09.840 --> 0:49:15.240 What are the plans right now for old Barnwell's buildings, clubhouse, lodging, 0:49:15.440 --> 0:49:16.320 all that kind of stuff. 0:49:16.680 --> 0:49:18.480 So that's another thing when you talk about like the 0:49:18.600 --> 0:49:22.040 nuts and bolt of a club. Early on in this process, 0:49:22.080 --> 0:49:25.000 I went to two really nice guys that live here 0:49:25.000 --> 0:49:28.960 in Charleston, Chris Randolph and Jordan Phillips, who are part 0:49:29.000 --> 0:49:33.920 of South Street Partners, and so they own keywa Island Club. 0:49:33.920 --> 0:49:36.600 They own Palmetto Brought Bluff that you know, the Crossroads, 0:49:36.840 --> 0:49:40.920 which you guys recently featured something they developed. And I 0:49:40.920 --> 0:49:44.080 went to them with like numbers very early in this process, 0:49:44.520 --> 0:49:46.480 and they almost laughed me out of the room, very politely, 0:49:46.520 --> 0:49:48.839 but they're like, you need to double what your numbers are. 0:49:49.200 --> 0:49:51.160 And they were correct in a lot of ways. In 0:49:51.160 --> 0:49:53.520 some ways they were incorrect or they didn't understand what 0:49:53.600 --> 0:49:54.920 we were trying to do. But one of the biggest 0:49:54.960 --> 0:49:57.680 differences that we had versus what they had is because 0:49:57.719 --> 0:50:02.600 they're in this this different categor glory of clubs, you know, 0:50:03.000 --> 0:50:06.120 they need the twenty thousand square foot twenty five thousand 0:50:06.160 --> 0:50:09.759 square foot clubhouse. I think ours is the footprint is 0:50:09.800 --> 0:50:12.640 like nine thousand. We've got a small upstairs area that's 0:50:12.640 --> 0:50:14.400 going to be for staff, So like overall, I think 0:50:14.400 --> 0:50:16.560 it's like eleven thousand square feet, which to me is 0:50:16.600 --> 0:50:20.880 still big, but it's very intimate by comparison, and I 0:50:20.880 --> 0:50:23.480 think that's okay. I like, the only place I've ever 0:50:23.480 --> 0:50:26.200 been a member before Old Barnwall is to Chesa Creek, 0:50:27.320 --> 0:50:29.640 which again, I know you read about to Death. 0:50:30.160 --> 0:50:34.840 Place, Love yeah place, and it's such a cool club 0:50:35.400 --> 0:50:40.520 and collection of buildings that fit exactly with the golf course. 0:50:41.600 --> 0:50:45.040 So you took the words on them. I'm so understated. No, no, 0:50:45.320 --> 0:50:46.799 you said up better than I coulde. It's just very 0:50:46.880 --> 0:50:51.520 understated and it serves its purpose and it's not stark, 0:50:52.160 --> 0:50:55.440 but there's not a whole lot of frills. And so 0:50:55.560 --> 0:50:58.000 the clubhouse, you know, we're working with a great and 0:50:58.080 --> 0:51:01.080 tior design group. We're working at the same building architects 0:51:00.880 --> 0:51:04.399 that designed every building on Sand Valley's property, so they 0:51:04.400 --> 0:51:06.680 have great experience and we're very excited about it. But 0:51:06.719 --> 0:51:09.520 it's not ostentatious. It is we want it to be 0:51:09.560 --> 0:51:11.600 a you know again, it's of the land, and the 0:51:11.640 --> 0:51:14.640 same is true with our lodge is one story, very 0:51:14.680 --> 0:51:18.360 much like the chest. They've got the twelve single rooms 0:51:18.960 --> 0:51:23.400 and kind of a low slung connected to the clubhouse building, 0:51:23.440 --> 0:51:24.920 and so ours is like an L shape. I'm sure 0:51:24.920 --> 0:51:26.840 they wouldn't love me saying this, but it's like a motel. 0:51:26.880 --> 0:51:29.400 It's like an L shaped motel with a lounge that 0:51:29.440 --> 0:51:32.600 connects the rooms and then two suites family suites on 0:51:32.640 --> 0:51:36.160 the end with an interior courtyard, you know. So the 0:51:36.200 --> 0:51:39.760 buildings to me, you know, they should be putting upsiding 0:51:39.760 --> 0:51:42.560 in the next week, which is really exciting, and I 0:51:42.560 --> 0:51:44.080 think it's going to be exciting for our members to 0:51:44.160 --> 0:51:47.200 see the progress. But it's taken a while for me 0:51:47.239 --> 0:51:50.279 to transition from focus on the golf to focus on 0:51:50.800 --> 0:51:53.960 the actual infrastructure. And luckily we've got people that have 0:51:54.040 --> 0:51:57.279 been focusing on that for a lot longer. So I 0:51:57.280 --> 0:51:59.360 think it's going to be far more important to the 0:51:59.360 --> 0:52:02.759 development of the club than I initially anticipated, and so 0:52:03.440 --> 0:52:05.200 I'm glad that we're working with people who really know 0:52:05.239 --> 0:52:05.640 what they're. 0:52:05.480 --> 0:52:10.000 Going Are there any costs that you incurred during the 0:52:10.000 --> 0:52:14.240 construction of the course or some of the initial infrastructure 0:52:15.120 --> 0:52:19.040 that really surprised you where you were like, this is 0:52:19.440 --> 0:52:20.760 this is higher than I expected? 0:52:21.960 --> 0:52:26.759 Yeah. Short answer is yeah, I mean I was looking 0:52:26.840 --> 0:52:30.560 at the numbers earlier. So the irrigation pond, for example, 0:52:31.160 --> 0:52:34.080 you know, originally so we're not on city water. What's 0:52:34.120 --> 0:52:37.520 great is we have our own water supply underneath the land. 0:52:37.640 --> 0:52:40.480 We have the water rights. But to build an irrigation pond, 0:52:40.480 --> 0:52:41.960 we thought, well, do we want to do two acres 0:52:42.080 --> 0:52:43.560 or do we want to do five? Do we want 0:52:43.600 --> 0:52:45.040 to do ten? Do we want to make it four 0:52:45.080 --> 0:52:48.479 feet or twelve feet deep? And what became pretty clear, 0:52:48.520 --> 0:52:51.560 again working with somebody like John Level, is that the 0:52:51.640 --> 0:52:53.799 upfront costs, you're not going to regret that upfront cost 0:52:53.920 --> 0:52:55.439 if you do it the right way the first time. 0:52:56.200 --> 0:53:00.880 And so that was way more expensive than anticipated. I 0:53:00.960 --> 0:53:04.200 joke around that early on in the process. I you know, 0:53:04.239 --> 0:53:06.759 asked Brian and Blake like, hey, you know, you hear this. 0:53:07.080 --> 0:53:08.799 You know it's a million dollars of golf hole, Like 0:53:09.600 --> 0:53:11.560 is that true? And if not, like, what are the 0:53:11.560 --> 0:53:14.480 things that you can do to keep costs lower and 0:53:14.520 --> 0:53:17.840 still create something that's really fantastic. And so they said, no, 0:53:17.880 --> 0:53:19.600 that's not true it depends on the land and all 0:53:19.640 --> 0:53:21.920 this stuff. But they said, but you know, to keep 0:53:21.960 --> 0:53:24.759 cost low. Really it's simple. You know, small greens and 0:53:24.840 --> 0:53:27.719 very few bunkers. And if you've been to old barn 0:53:27.719 --> 0:53:30.200 and walls, you have the greens are not small, and 0:53:30.239 --> 0:53:34.799 they're over one hundred bunkers. So clearly you know they 0:53:35.120 --> 0:53:37.319 didn't they didn't get their own memo in that, and 0:53:37.360 --> 0:53:41.160 I couldn't be happier. Frankly, I think that again, the 0:53:41.200 --> 0:53:43.360 best thing we could have done is hire people like 0:53:43.400 --> 0:53:44.920 Brian and Blake and then trust them to do what 0:53:44.960 --> 0:53:48.480 they do best, and that's that is a great investment. 0:53:49.320 --> 0:53:52.720 Another thing I mean, I think drainage is something we didn't. 0:53:53.680 --> 0:53:56.160 We did not spare an expense on drainage. That's way 0:53:56.160 --> 0:53:59.560 more expensive than I anticipated. Irrigation, even since we put 0:53:59.600 --> 0:54:03.759 in our earsgation system inflation, and like it's absurd to 0:54:03.800 --> 0:54:05.319 me having grown up on a place that didn't have 0:54:05.320 --> 0:54:08.960 any irrigation. You know, they watered the handwater the greens 0:54:08.960 --> 0:54:11.240 and that was it. Like it just bottles my mind 0:54:12.440 --> 0:54:16.040 how expensive a good irrigation system is. But I was 0:54:16.080 --> 0:54:18.280 warned about that, so it wasn't too much of a surprise. 0:54:20.080 --> 0:54:21.719 I think that there are a lot of surprises along 0:54:21.760 --> 0:54:25.160 the way for somebody with zero experience like me. But again, 0:54:25.239 --> 0:54:27.040 having talked to a lot of people in the industry, 0:54:27.080 --> 0:54:30.200 I was at least given a fair sense of course. 0:54:31.880 --> 0:54:35.719 So in clearing land, Clearing land is expensive, particularly when 0:54:35.719 --> 0:54:38.440 you can't sell the timber. Those are the things I 0:54:38.440 --> 0:54:40.759 would say that come to mind. Is more expensive than 0:54:40.760 --> 0:54:41.440 I anticipated. 0:54:41.800 --> 0:54:44.240 The things that nobody thinks about when they think about 0:54:44.520 --> 0:54:49.240 building a golf course, clearing the land, drainage and irrigation. Yeah. 0:54:49.280 --> 0:54:51.320 Well, and if we wanted city water, I remember talking 0:54:51.360 --> 0:54:53.759 to the Mamorancy Water department. So this is before we 0:54:53.760 --> 0:54:55.560 had John Leavell. So I'm reaching out to the county 0:54:55.560 --> 0:54:59.120 and I'm asking the dumbest questions And if we wanted 0:54:59.120 --> 0:55:01.319 to connect to city water, we would have had to 0:55:01.360 --> 0:55:04.600 build literally paid for them to build like two and 0:55:04.640 --> 0:55:08.239 a half or three miles of pipe. And they're like, well, 0:55:08.239 --> 0:55:10.319 are you building houses, because if you're building houses, maybe 0:55:10.320 --> 0:55:12.440 we can like it won't cost as much because we'll 0:55:12.440 --> 0:55:14.239 be you know, there'll be more customers that are paying 0:55:14.280 --> 0:55:17.200 us for water. And I was like, wait, are you 0:55:17.200 --> 0:55:19.239 telling me that, like we can use our own water 0:55:19.239 --> 0:55:21.279 and like, yeah, totally. It's like, okay, well we'll just 0:55:21.320 --> 0:55:23.480 stick with our own water. I think that sounds like 0:55:23.520 --> 0:55:26.319 a better idea. So there are so many things that 0:55:26.360 --> 0:55:28.279 we didn't have to experience that I'm sure every other 0:55:28.280 --> 0:55:31.279 golf developer has to go through. So we were really 0:55:31.280 --> 0:55:32.440 fortunate in a lot of ways too. 0:55:32.960 --> 0:55:35.960 I'm sure people are curious about the Kid's course that 0:55:36.000 --> 0:55:38.600 you've mentioned a couple of times and which is currently 0:55:38.880 --> 0:55:44.240 under construction, as well as the third course that I'm 0:55:44.280 --> 0:55:47.160 not sure how far along in the process you are 0:55:47.200 --> 0:55:51.719 with designing or constructing this one, But what can you 0:55:51.760 --> 0:55:55.320 tell me about these two future courses at Old Barnwell? 0:55:56.000 --> 0:56:00.239 Sure, so the Kid's course is under construction now. I 0:56:00.239 --> 0:56:02.920 think there are eight greens that are already roughed in, 0:56:03.600 --> 0:56:07.360 so we've set aside twenty five acres. You know, if 0:56:07.400 --> 0:56:08.640 you'd asked me a month ago, I thought it was 0:56:08.680 --> 0:56:11.000 twelve holes, but brianon Blake have since added three more, 0:56:11.520 --> 0:56:15.880 and the idea I know, it's it's they're sneaky, Well 0:56:15.880 --> 0:56:17.960 they're sneaky, but also I kind of love it. Like 0:56:18.719 --> 0:56:20.719 one of my favorite holes on the first course is 0:56:20.760 --> 0:56:23.440 the thirteenth, and that was originally going to be a 0:56:23.440 --> 0:56:27.120 par three, and when they were you know, building, they realized, 0:56:27.960 --> 0:56:29.040 you know, this is going to be better as a 0:56:29.040 --> 0:56:31.040 part four. So we're part seventy three and I think 0:56:31.040 --> 0:56:33.759 we're all the better for it because they just took 0:56:33.800 --> 0:56:35.680 what the land gave them there. So I think the 0:56:35.719 --> 0:56:41.000 same so with the kids course. The I can't possibly 0:56:41.040 --> 0:56:44.319 describe how much soil you dig up when you build 0:56:44.360 --> 0:56:47.960 a five acre pond that is ten feet deep. We 0:56:48.040 --> 0:56:52.040 had two mountains and one was kind of sandy ish 0:56:52.160 --> 0:56:55.480 and one was play ish, and basically we sold or 0:56:55.680 --> 0:56:59.879 we gave the play away to a partner. But over 0:56:59.880 --> 0:57:03.840 the last like five months, our agronomy team has moved 0:57:03.920 --> 0:57:07.359 all that dirt to where the kids courses and then 0:57:07.719 --> 0:57:10.600 dug out more things to provide more dirt, to create 0:57:10.640 --> 0:57:13.000 a grading plan that Brian like, a very loose grading 0:57:13.000 --> 0:57:14.560 plan that Brian and Blake wanted to work with. And 0:57:14.560 --> 0:57:16.640 so now there's going to be fifty holes. I think 0:57:16.680 --> 0:57:18.960 mostly Part three's, but a couple of short part fours. 0:57:20.280 --> 0:57:22.040 When I say short, Part four is like three hundred 0:57:22.120 --> 0:57:25.000 or less, and I think we haven't figured out all 0:57:25.000 --> 0:57:26.640 the logistics of it, but I think, like if you're 0:57:26.640 --> 0:57:29.040 an adult, like you can only bring your irons, like, 0:57:29.080 --> 0:57:32.439 don't bring a driver, A three would. But the goal 0:57:32.520 --> 0:57:35.400 is that on the weekends you can't play there until 0:57:35.400 --> 0:57:37.440 three o'clock unless you're with a kid, and that's a 0:57:37.480 --> 0:57:41.440 pretty easy thing to stick to. Originally, we thought, well, 0:57:41.440 --> 0:57:43.120 it should, that should always be the case, but what 0:57:43.200 --> 0:57:46.840 we realized is that we have a really we have 0:57:46.880 --> 0:57:51.800 a large group of beginning golfers, whether it's spouses or kids, 0:57:52.440 --> 0:57:54.880 that we want to do programming during the week We 0:57:54.920 --> 0:57:56.560 also want to partner with like youth on course and 0:57:56.600 --> 0:58:00.360 provide access via that realm. So basically on the weekends 0:58:00.360 --> 0:58:04.240 it's going to be kid focused. And then I think 0:58:04.280 --> 0:58:06.400 that what they are going for you should talk to 0:58:06.400 --> 0:58:09.760 Brian and Blake because I've seen these greens, but I 0:58:10.400 --> 0:58:13.640 still haven't seen a routing. I think it's going to 0:58:13.680 --> 0:58:15.920 be a lot of fun. We had a contest, a 0:58:16.000 --> 0:58:18.440 design contest where kids could submit their designed for a 0:58:18.480 --> 0:58:21.680 whole and some of the ideas were hilarious and fun, 0:58:21.800 --> 0:58:26.280 including one that had a waffle house on the eighteenth green, 0:58:26.480 --> 0:58:28.400 which are on the green site, which was I mean, 0:58:29.040 --> 0:58:31.040 that'd be pretty great. I don't think we can pull 0:58:31.040 --> 0:58:33.240 that off, but one, the one that won had ramps 0:58:33.760 --> 0:58:37.040 because in his description he said, you know, it's nice 0:58:37.040 --> 0:58:39.120 to see if you hit a bad shot, it's still 0:58:39.160 --> 0:58:41.040 nice to see it going the year. So they're going 0:58:41.080 --> 0:58:42.760 to be features like that. It's not going to be 0:58:42.840 --> 0:58:44.640 like a miniatured off course, but I think that they 0:58:44.680 --> 0:58:46.960 are going to be features so that kids can really 0:58:47.960 --> 0:58:52.480 enjoy it. A couple months ago, Blake texted me a 0:58:52.760 --> 0:58:56.680 Craigslist listing for a like an eighteen foot grain silo 0:58:56.840 --> 0:58:59.000 and it was for sale down the road. It was 0:58:59.040 --> 0:59:01.360 one thousand bucks and he's like, hey, can you can 0:59:01.400 --> 0:59:04.720 you get this? And I said, well, what Ford? He said, 0:59:04.720 --> 0:59:06.480 don't worry about it. Can you can you get it? 0:59:06.680 --> 0:59:08.960 I was like, I'm not, I'm not going to get 0:59:09.080 --> 0:59:10.600 so we didn't get it. So I don't really know 0:59:10.640 --> 0:59:12.200 what his idea was there, but I do think that 0:59:12.240 --> 0:59:14.240 they're trying to create something that is it's not a 0:59:14.280 --> 0:59:18.120 part three course. It is something different, and I'm again 0:59:18.200 --> 0:59:20.320 I'm as clueless about it as I think the rest 0:59:20.320 --> 0:59:23.080 of our members are. Although that the the greens look 0:59:23.120 --> 0:59:26.000 great so far, and then the third course we've got 0:59:26.280 --> 0:59:28.920 we've got a preliminary routing, and I think, what they 0:59:29.000 --> 0:59:33.160 want to do there is basically create two distinct nine 0:59:33.200 --> 0:59:35.960 hole courses in essence that you can rate and slope 0:59:36.000 --> 0:59:39.160 as one to eighteen holes. But their perspective is, you know, 0:59:39.480 --> 0:59:40.920 you've got to use what the land gives you. And 0:59:40.920 --> 0:59:42.800 so there's some really subtle features and then there's some 0:59:42.840 --> 0:59:46.959 really severe. That valley that is on the first course 0:59:47.040 --> 0:59:48.880 extends all the way into that backside of the property. 0:59:48.880 --> 0:59:51.920 We have about one hundred and eighty five acres, and 0:59:51.960 --> 0:59:53.640 so I think what they really are focused on is 0:59:53.680 --> 0:59:58.280 creating variety for members. And so you know, those two 0:59:58.360 --> 1:00:02.280 distinct nine hole routing things will allow for you to 1:00:02.320 --> 1:00:05.320 play three different, four different I mean golf courses in 1:00:05.440 --> 1:00:08.720 essence when you come to o'barmel. So honestly, I don't 1:00:08.720 --> 1:00:12.040 know how many years you know, we're away from building 1:00:12.080 --> 1:00:14.440 that course. I would say that we've been really fortunate 1:00:14.440 --> 1:00:15.880 in a lot of ways, so it's probably sooner than 1:00:15.880 --> 1:00:18.840 be an anticipated. But who knows what their routing will 1:00:18.880 --> 1:00:22.600 do over time. It could change, it may have already 1:00:22.680 --> 1:00:23.600 changed since I last book. 1:00:24.240 --> 1:00:29.720 So zooming out a bit and looking at the kind 1:00:29.760 --> 1:00:35.600 of golf course construction surge that Old Barnwell is part 1:00:35.640 --> 1:00:40.560 of there are a lot of new courses going up, 1:00:40.880 --> 1:00:45.600 not only in the Aiken area, but really across South 1:00:45.640 --> 1:00:50.880 Carolina and in many places in Florida, some places in Georgia. 1:00:50.960 --> 1:00:56.040 Really the southeast is experiencing a kind of many or 1:00:56.360 --> 1:01:02.600 regionalized boom in golf construction. And so as somebody who's 1:01:02.920 --> 1:01:06.400 within that, who's part of that, Why do you think 1:01:06.440 --> 1:01:09.480 this is happening? Why are there so many golf courses 1:01:09.600 --> 1:01:13.200 being built in this area right now, and specifically so 1:01:13.320 --> 1:01:18.680 many kind of private clubs, often destination private clubs going 1:01:18.800 --> 1:01:20.840 up in this one region at the moment. 1:01:21.480 --> 1:01:26.200 So I think there are a few main reasons, the 1:01:26.240 --> 1:01:29.520 first of which kind of hits on you know, you 1:01:29.560 --> 1:01:32.520 just said a destination golf course. This is still a 1:01:32.560 --> 1:01:36.640 relatively new business model of like the National Private Club 1:01:36.720 --> 1:01:39.840 and so CICHESI, I think is one great example. When 1:01:39.880 --> 1:01:43.320 it started, it didn't do so well, and so it's 1:01:43.320 --> 1:01:45.960 the second owner who's done really well with it as 1:01:46.000 --> 1:01:49.400 they lowered does lowered the entrance fee and made it 1:01:49.440 --> 1:01:51.760 more kind of they've expanded it to now I think 1:01:51.800 --> 1:01:53.439 they have. I'm making this up, but I think it's 1:01:53.480 --> 1:01:55.960 seven hundred and fifty or eight hundred members, and so 1:01:56.360 --> 1:01:58.440 this is still a relatively new model that I think 1:01:58.480 --> 1:02:00.320 a lot of people are looking at and ships saying, 1:02:00.800 --> 1:02:03.000 you know, it's like as Andy would describe, like the 1:02:03.040 --> 1:02:06.439 craft culture, you know, the craft beer culture, golf course 1:02:06.520 --> 1:02:09.480 architecture through the work that you guys do and others. Like, 1:02:09.760 --> 1:02:14.360 it's so much more prevalent I think within the golfing 1:02:14.400 --> 1:02:17.000 community that people are willing to pay a premium for 1:02:17.040 --> 1:02:20.040 a really interesting or new golf course by Bill Hants 1:02:20.720 --> 1:02:25.600 or Tom Doak, and you know, the the business model 1:02:25.680 --> 1:02:27.640 is pretty strong for the first owner in that case 1:02:27.680 --> 1:02:29.240 in a way that it hasn't been in the past. 1:02:30.200 --> 1:02:32.840 You can get into like the next component of it is, 1:02:33.000 --> 1:02:36.120 of course you've got this whatever you know, like the 1:02:36.200 --> 1:02:40.400 one percent or whatever that can afford the five hundred 1:02:40.440 --> 1:02:45.640 grand that some people are charging or you know, again 1:02:45.680 --> 1:02:49.240 that makes your like like you know, you get basically 1:02:49.280 --> 1:02:51.160 you get ten members of that place, and you've filled 1:02:51.240 --> 1:02:54.200 up our coffers that we've gotten an old barn wall 1:02:54.200 --> 1:02:57.720 for our initiation fees, and so the you know, the 1:02:57.800 --> 1:02:59.960 numbers work out really well in that case, and right 1:03:00.000 --> 1:03:03.880 now today they can sell those memberships tomorrow who knows, 1:03:04.800 --> 1:03:07.200 But The third thing I would say is that, as 1:03:08.120 --> 1:03:11.000 you know, pre COVID even but since COVID, everybody's moving 1:03:11.040 --> 1:03:13.960 to the southeast. And so you know, I've been in 1:03:14.040 --> 1:03:16.240 Charleston for nine years, but I'm from Chicago originally, and 1:03:16.720 --> 1:03:18.920 our neighbors here in Charleston almost all of them are 1:03:18.920 --> 1:03:20.800 from the Midwest. And so what I would say is 1:03:20.840 --> 1:03:23.320 that just like here in Charleston, the same is true 1:03:23.320 --> 1:03:26.560 in Atlanta and Charlotte. There are only so many great 1:03:26.600 --> 1:03:30.560 golf courses or good golf courses. So for people that 1:03:30.560 --> 1:03:35.440 are looking for the private golf experience, they're sol like 1:03:35.480 --> 1:03:38.360 they can't get on a wait list, and so they're 1:03:38.400 --> 1:03:42.120 willing to drive two hours to Ache to play. They're 1:03:42.120 --> 1:03:44.760 willing to drive to whatever the mountains of North Carolina 1:03:44.840 --> 1:03:48.640 and willing to pay a premium. And so I think 1:03:48.680 --> 1:03:51.560 that again right now, that business model is sound. I 1:03:51.560 --> 1:03:54.000 don't know how sustainable it is. I am not an 1:03:54.040 --> 1:03:57.000 expert on this stuff. The National Golf Foundation and you know, 1:03:57.040 --> 1:03:59.360 the Golf Course Owners Association would have a much better 1:03:59.360 --> 1:04:02.680 take on this than I do. But I am skeptical 1:04:03.000 --> 1:04:06.040 of like, if we were doing this to make money, 1:04:06.160 --> 1:04:08.480 if we were really like focused on profitability, we'd be 1:04:08.520 --> 1:04:12.960 doing things very differently. Ironically, I think that's what's going 1:04:13.000 --> 1:04:17.480 to allow us to have longer term sustainability. But I 1:04:17.480 --> 1:04:19.800 don't know. I didn't have a good answer for what 1:04:19.840 --> 1:04:22.720 the future holds. I mean, there's part of me the 1:04:22.760 --> 1:04:24.480 things that like. And we kind of saw this a 1:04:24.480 --> 1:04:27.480 little bit during COVID. You know, the economy may go 1:04:27.520 --> 1:04:29.040 down a little bit, but the people who seem to 1:04:29.040 --> 1:04:31.720 be least affected sometimes are the ones who can afford 1:04:31.720 --> 1:04:35.520 a five hundred thousand dollars initiation fee. So maybe maybe 1:04:35.520 --> 1:04:37.400 this isn't you know, maybe this is what kind of 1:04:37.480 --> 1:04:43.040 keeps happening. I think I'll shout out booms Edge in Rembert, 1:04:43.040 --> 1:04:47.280 South Carolina as a really unique opportunity for private golf 1:04:47.320 --> 1:04:51.160 to be affordable and accessible to the public. I do 1:04:51.240 --> 1:04:53.960 think that there's a model there, but nobody's figured it out. 1:04:54.520 --> 1:04:57.080 I think if we were, if we took a long 1:04:57.160 --> 1:05:00.160 view and could and I know this is some like 1:05:00.200 --> 1:05:01.760 a drum that you guys beat all the time, if 1:05:01.800 --> 1:05:06.160 you could change golfers expectations around maintenance and course conditions, 1:05:07.280 --> 1:05:09.000 I think you could create a really great golf club 1:05:09.040 --> 1:05:12.440 at an affordable price and still provide some public access. 1:05:12.440 --> 1:05:14.800 But I think it's important to note I'll say this 1:05:14.840 --> 1:05:18.880 and then I'll shut up, but exclusivity that people pay 1:05:18.920 --> 1:05:22.040 for with private clubs, like that word has such a 1:05:22.080 --> 1:05:27.720 negative connotation, But I also understand why people want or 1:05:27.760 --> 1:05:30.200 need that exclusivity for their golf experience, right. I mean again, 1:05:30.240 --> 1:05:32.120 like I think about it, I don't want to go 1:05:32.200 --> 1:05:34.800 to Wild Dunes here in Charleston and pay two hundred 1:05:34.840 --> 1:05:38.080 bucks to play a six hour round. It's certainly cheaper 1:05:38.360 --> 1:05:40.600 than joining a club in a lot of ways. But 1:05:40.640 --> 1:05:43.560 at the same time, you know, we all kind of 1:05:43.600 --> 1:05:46.920 pay for different conveniences, and so I think the real 1:05:47.000 --> 1:05:50.560 challenge is how can we make these courses provide that 1:05:50.680 --> 1:05:54.640 exclusive environment. When I say exclusive, I mean access for 1:05:54.680 --> 1:05:56.280 those members so that they can play when they want 1:05:56.280 --> 1:05:58.240 and they can have the experience that they want, but 1:05:58.360 --> 1:06:00.720 also leave it open to public place. And so there 1:06:00.720 --> 1:06:02.040 are just a lot of creative ways, and I think 1:06:02.080 --> 1:06:04.439 we found that a lot of our members not only 1:06:04.480 --> 1:06:07.560 don't they don't care that we're providing public play access, 1:06:07.920 --> 1:06:10.240 they're encouraging it. They really like it and they want 1:06:10.280 --> 1:06:12.840 to support it because they want to show off the 1:06:12.880 --> 1:06:14.960 place that they've grown to like, you know, or love 1:06:15.040 --> 1:06:19.600 in some cases. So I think that unfortunately, I would 1:06:19.600 --> 1:06:21.240 guess that at some point in the next five to 1:06:21.360 --> 1:06:23.640 ten years there's going to be some sort of reckoning 1:06:24.160 --> 1:06:27.280 with these really expensive private clubs. But I also think 1:06:27.320 --> 1:06:31.720 that there might be a solution to it. I'm not 1:06:31.760 --> 1:06:33.920 smart enough to say whether or not that's going to come. 1:06:33.920 --> 1:06:39.040 The past well, you're probably better positioned to make predictions 1:06:39.040 --> 1:06:41.240 in this realm than a lot of people. I mean, 1:06:41.400 --> 1:06:45.560 I don't know. You mentioned the National Golf Foundation and 1:06:44.760 --> 1:06:50.160 the Course Owners Association earlier, and while both of those 1:06:50.240 --> 1:06:56.280 bodies do really good research that I often avail myself of, 1:06:56.520 --> 1:06:59.280 they've also been wrong in the past. Right, it's really 1:06:59.640 --> 1:07:04.480 hard two to identify the signs of a bubble. We've 1:07:04.520 --> 1:07:07.000 seen this in so many different ways over the past 1:07:07.120 --> 1:07:10.880 few decades in different sectors of the economy. You know, 1:07:11.520 --> 1:07:14.280 it's almost part of the definition of a bubble that 1:07:14.320 --> 1:07:18.200 you don't know that you're in it. But there are 1:07:18.240 --> 1:07:21.320 definitely some people who are looking at this development surge 1:07:21.320 --> 1:07:26.240 and saying, how can this possibly be sustainable? And and 1:07:26.320 --> 1:07:30.160 so you know, from from your position as the developer, 1:07:30.240 --> 1:07:33.680 the founder, the owner of one of these clubs. What 1:07:33.680 --> 1:07:35.760 do you what do you think are the characteristics that 1:07:36.200 --> 1:07:41.920 can make a club durable through these oscillations in the 1:07:41.960 --> 1:07:44.600 economy that that we know are eventually coming. 1:07:45.560 --> 1:07:50.520 So for us, I think, you know, like lodging, I 1:07:50.520 --> 1:07:54.800 think lodging is one for these national clubs where that 1:07:54.920 --> 1:07:57.200 is an experience that people are willing to pay for. 1:07:57.800 --> 1:07:59.840 And in our case, we are looking at kind of 1:07:59.840 --> 1:08:02.080 the market comp and trying to be twenty to twenty 1:08:02.120 --> 1:08:05.480 five percent cheaper than that. We will still make a 1:08:05.480 --> 1:08:08.880 healthy profit our lodging at that rate. And so I 1:08:08.920 --> 1:08:12.600 think that there is that that's something that those clubs 1:08:12.640 --> 1:08:14.400 that all clubs can kind of lean back on for 1:08:14.440 --> 1:08:18.639 the national model. I think that food and beverage maybe 1:08:18.640 --> 1:08:21.120 plays an underrated component in this too. And this is 1:08:21.120 --> 1:08:24.160 somebody who I who will say that I've been a 1:08:24.160 --> 1:08:25.960 waiter and a dishwasher and all that stuff and worked 1:08:25.960 --> 1:08:28.599 in service before, but I think that that's an underrated 1:08:28.600 --> 1:08:31.680 component around community. And so you know, I had the 1:08:31.800 --> 1:08:33.920 chance to go to wade Hampton a couple of years 1:08:33.960 --> 1:08:35.680 ago because the father in law and one of our 1:08:35.720 --> 1:08:39.160 members hosted us. And that's as nice as nice gets 1:08:39.160 --> 1:08:41.439 in terms of the experience and I have no idea 1:08:41.479 --> 1:08:44.280 what an initiation fee costs there. But one thing that 1:08:44.360 --> 1:08:46.680 I'll say that they did exceptionally well. One they have 1:08:46.840 --> 1:08:50.280 great staff, but they have like these community events that 1:08:50.320 --> 1:08:53.400 are all based around dinner or lunch or whatever, and 1:08:53.439 --> 1:08:55.960 so like it becomes part of that fabric for the 1:08:55.960 --> 1:08:58.360 people that live in that area. And to me, the 1:08:58.360 --> 1:08:59.880 more you can do that, the more you can create 1:08:59.880 --> 1:09:02.240 that kind of programming. I think that's really healthy, not 1:09:02.280 --> 1:09:06.200 just for the golf club's economics, but also for it 1:09:06.240 --> 1:09:08.559 creates that stickiness. I come from software, so like, I'm 1:09:08.600 --> 1:09:11.479 constantly thinking about retention rates, like how do we make 1:09:11.520 --> 1:09:14.519 sure that we keep people in. I also think that, 1:09:15.320 --> 1:09:18.200 you know, when push comes to shove, a really great 1:09:18.240 --> 1:09:20.800 golf experience at a reasonable price is going to be 1:09:20.840 --> 1:09:23.559 the last membership you drop. I could very well be 1:09:23.600 --> 1:09:27.679 wrong on that, and I think everybody's motivation is different, 1:09:27.680 --> 1:09:30.479 but I feel pretty good that at the price point 1:09:30.479 --> 1:09:34.160 that we're at, it'd be I'm not going to say foolish, 1:09:34.200 --> 1:09:37.040 but like if you had to choose between one that is, 1:09:37.479 --> 1:09:39.640 you know, equally far away or tough to get to 1:09:39.760 --> 1:09:42.360 and costs five times as much and the golf course 1:09:42.400 --> 1:09:45.080 is as good as you know, why why wouldn't you 1:09:45.200 --> 1:09:47.519 keep the one that's a little bit more affordable and 1:09:47.520 --> 1:09:49.360 maybe a little bit more family friendly or you know, 1:09:49.720 --> 1:09:54.639 again that's my inherent bias, but those are the thoughts 1:09:54.640 --> 1:09:55.960 that come to mind. I suppose. 1:09:56.880 --> 1:10:01.920 Yeah. I mean, there's there's something about the older model 1:10:02.479 --> 1:10:07.599 of the American private club, the local club, that maybe 1:10:07.880 --> 1:10:11.559 has been lost a little bit, perhaps because a lot 1:10:11.600 --> 1:10:16.479 of these clubs struggled during the recession or even before that. 1:10:17.360 --> 1:10:23.240 But local clubs in a lot of places are or 1:10:23.400 --> 1:10:28.920 used to be general local institutions. It's where you'd go 1:10:29.200 --> 1:10:32.360 to get married, It's where you'd go to have a 1:10:32.439 --> 1:10:35.120 nice meal, it's where you'd go for a bridge night 1:10:35.680 --> 1:10:38.519 or something like that. You know, there would be all 1:10:38.560 --> 1:10:40.960 sorts of events happening at the local club. It was 1:10:41.000 --> 1:10:43.040 the local club. That's what you went and did that, 1:10:43.120 --> 1:10:45.000 and there were members who would play golf and stuff 1:10:45.040 --> 1:10:48.600 like that. But it was generally fairly open to the community. 1:10:49.120 --> 1:10:52.759 And it seems like some of that has been lost 1:10:53.160 --> 1:10:58.040 in the past few decades and would seem to be recoverable, 1:10:58.200 --> 1:10:58.479 you know. 1:10:59.000 --> 1:11:00.800 I would think so. I think that, and I know 1:11:00.840 --> 1:11:04.120 that the park has its own they raise, however much 1:11:04.160 --> 1:11:06.120 money in two months to get the park going. 1:11:06.160 --> 1:11:09.160 But right in that's West West Palm Beach, the municipal 1:11:09.320 --> 1:11:10.559 facility there, and. 1:11:10.520 --> 1:11:12.760 Yeah, but that could be a central hub. And the 1:11:12.800 --> 1:11:15.400 same thing is true at at Winter Park. So I 1:11:15.439 --> 1:11:17.200 think that there are places that do it really well. 1:11:17.280 --> 1:11:21.720 And I know that Chessi, for example, they are very 1:11:21.760 --> 1:11:24.720 profitable in terms of food and beverage because they do 1:11:24.760 --> 1:11:27.519 it right. It's nothing fancy, it's just really good food 1:11:27.560 --> 1:11:30.080 done right. It's not uber expensive. And so it's a 1:11:30.080 --> 1:11:31.800 place that you want to go to. And so like 1:11:31.840 --> 1:11:35.439 I live two hours away, I'd rarely stay overnight, but 1:11:35.520 --> 1:11:36.960 like I kind of want to, you know, like I'd 1:11:36.960 --> 1:11:39.040 prefer to stay overnight because it's such a great experience, 1:11:39.160 --> 1:11:43.719 you know. So I'll say that one of the things 1:11:43.720 --> 1:11:47.960 that I've seen in this environment. So there are a 1:11:47.960 --> 1:11:51.160 couple of clubs in South Carolina. So like Orangeburg Country 1:11:51.200 --> 1:11:54.679 Club is about an hour and ten minutes from downtown Charleston. 1:11:54.680 --> 1:11:56.559 It's probably an hour and a half from Charlotte. It 1:11:56.640 --> 1:11:59.720 is a great older course, you know, a little rough 1:11:59.720 --> 1:12:02.840 around the edges, but totally affordable. It is a community club. 1:12:03.520 --> 1:12:06.839 They're seeing enough to in members coming that are from Charleston, 1:12:06.840 --> 1:12:08.639 that can't get off a wait list, that are willing 1:12:08.640 --> 1:12:11.719 to drive an hour fifteen minutes. Camden is a great course, 1:12:12.280 --> 1:12:15.840 same thing. And so I think that the many, kind 1:12:15.840 --> 1:12:20.040 of the whack a mole of all this development and 1:12:20.280 --> 1:12:23.479 exclusivity may benefit some of those community clubs in a 1:12:23.520 --> 1:12:25.560 way that is kind of, you know, one of the 1:12:25.680 --> 1:12:29.920 unintended consequences. My concern is more about, you know, the 1:12:29.960 --> 1:12:32.080 clubs on the North short of Chicago where I grew up, 1:12:32.120 --> 1:12:35.200 caddying a lot of those clubs. Before COVID couldn't pay 1:12:35.640 --> 1:12:38.519 younger members to join. There just wasn't and I don't 1:12:38.520 --> 1:12:41.599 know if it was generational, but and then COVID hit 1:12:41.600 --> 1:12:43.400 and then everybody wants to join, and they start, they 1:12:43.479 --> 1:12:46.400 raise their rates, they pay down their debt, and then 1:12:46.439 --> 1:12:50.639 they immediately go back into debt just now investing in 1:12:50.680 --> 1:12:52.599 these new you know whatever, it's new and shiny, and 1:12:52.640 --> 1:12:56.479 that is a recipe for disaster. I think I say 1:12:56.520 --> 1:13:00.559 that with such you know, lack of knowledge about you know, 1:13:00.600 --> 1:13:02.599 their vision. And I'm sure we'll get to that point too, 1:13:02.600 --> 1:13:05.479 where we make stupid mistakes about what we spend money on. 1:13:05.520 --> 1:13:08.320 But like we have a like a treehouse. We spent 1:13:08.640 --> 1:13:10.960 a lot of money on building a treehouse, and I 1:13:10.960 --> 1:13:12.720 remember talking to my father about that and he's like, 1:13:12.800 --> 1:13:15.120 you are insane, Like that is the dumbest money you 1:13:15.160 --> 1:13:17.760 could have spent. And I will say that, at least 1:13:17.760 --> 1:13:20.040 as it relates to our mission. I actually feel like 1:13:20.040 --> 1:13:22.280 the return on investment with that will be pretty easy 1:13:22.360 --> 1:13:26.400 to kind of measure because my son, Henry, who's six, 1:13:27.080 --> 1:13:28.960 really not in the golf yet. This is going to 1:13:29.000 --> 1:13:31.479 be the most miserable thing ever if my kids don't 1:13:31.560 --> 1:13:35.640 like golf. But when that treehouse was built, he was like, 1:13:35.760 --> 1:13:38.439 let's go to o'barnall, and so we went there. We 1:13:38.479 --> 1:13:39.760 spent an hour and a half on it, and then 1:13:39.840 --> 1:13:41.120 at the end of it he's like, can we go 1:13:41.160 --> 1:13:43.639 hit balls? I was like, we don't have the driving 1:13:43.720 --> 1:13:45.160 range yet, but yeah, we can hit into the dirt 1:13:45.280 --> 1:13:47.000 like great, Like it got him to play a little 1:13:47.000 --> 1:13:50.280 bit of golf. So maybe there are things that clubs, 1:13:50.439 --> 1:13:52.360 like we stumbled upon that idea, but like, maybe there 1:13:52.360 --> 1:13:54.479 are things that clubs can do where you know, the 1:13:54.479 --> 1:13:57.519 grand scheme of things, it's golf adjacent, the golf related 1:13:57.520 --> 1:13:59.599 and it's not a huge investment, but it will bring 1:14:00.320 --> 1:14:03.040 again that's stickiness to their membership. 1:14:03.320 --> 1:14:05.120 All right, Nick, thank you so much for coming on 1:14:05.160 --> 1:14:08.400 the podcast. Really enjoyed this conversation and best of luck 1:14:08.439 --> 1:14:09.160 with Ald Barnwell. 1:14:09.400 --> 1:14:11.600 Thank you thanks for putting up with my app and 1:14:11.680 --> 1:14:12.080 Goo Ahead. 1:14:21.000 --> 1:14:24.680 This episode of the Friday Golf Podcast was produced by 1:14:24.800 --> 1:14:28.439 Matt Rusius. Thank you, Matt. If you'd like to do 1:14:28.520 --> 1:14:32.400 something really quick that helps us a lot, go to 1:14:32.479 --> 1:14:35.479 wherever you're listening to this podcast and give us a 1:14:35.600 --> 1:14:38.920 rating and review. We read all the feedback that we 1:14:38.960 --> 1:14:41.439 get and we like hearing it from people, so if 1:14:41.479 --> 1:14:43.920 you do that, it will help us find new listeners, 1:14:44.000 --> 1:14:46.880 and it will also give us good information about what 1:14:46.880 --> 1:14:49.400 we're doing well and what we could do better. Thank 1:14:49.439 --> 1:14:51.840 you for listening to this episode. We'll be back again 1:14:51.880 --> 1:14:52.920 soon with another