WEBVTT - From the Vault: Demogorgon 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:07.800 Hey, welcome to Stuff to blow your mind. My name 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:11.160 is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And hey folks, 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:13.120 Robert and I were out of the office for a bit. 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:15.160 I guess whatever you would call the office right now. 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:17.520 We were out of the home office for a bit. Uh. 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:20.120 So we are running a vault episode today. We're going 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:24.360 into the vault for a classic episode on the demo Organ. Yeah, 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:26.280 this is a fun one. It's one that we referenced 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:29.479 recently on the show, so we thought what better time 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:33.560 than now to unleash the demogorgan once again. This originally 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:38.239 aired on October one, twenty nineteen. I have very fond memories. 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:49.040 I think you'll enjoy it at length. The universal Hubbub, 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:53.720 wild of stunning sounds and voices, all confused, born through 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:58.200 the hollow dark, assaults his ear with loudest vehemence. Thither 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:02.320 he applies, undaunted and eat their whatever power or spirit 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:07.040 of the nethermost abyss might in that noise reside of 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:10.759 whom to ask which way the nearest coast of darkness 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:15.520 lies bordering on light? When straight behold the throne of 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:20.680 chaos and his dark pavilion spread wide on the wasteful deep, 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:25.800 with him enthroned sat sable, vested night, eldest of things, 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:29.479 the consort of his reign. And by them stood orcas 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:34.920 and eighties and the dreaded name of dim Rumor. Next 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:40.640 and chants and tumult and confusion, all embroiled and discord 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:48.720 with a thousand various mouths. Welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:51.080 Your Mind, a production of I Heart Radios, How Stuff Work. 0:01:57.760 --> 0:01:59.920 Hey you, Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:02.440 name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick, and I'm 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:05.680 so excited. It's my favorite time of the year. It's October, 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:07.640 which is my favorite month of the year anyway, but 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:09.520 it's also my favorite time of the year at work 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:12.280 because it's Monster Month. Here on Stuff to Blow your Mind, 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:15.359 that's right when we devote the entire month of October 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:19.440 and sometimes a little change two topics that are either 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:23.800 obsessed with monsters or or darkness or horror or terror. 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:29.000 Is there anything even remotely HALLOWEENI We just fully embrace it. 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:31.120 It's the most wonderful time of the year. And so 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:33.560 and you know, as we were coming up with episodes 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:36.000 to record this year, where we you know, our minds 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:39.119 turned to things we've covered in the past. So on 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:42.400 one hand, there's an old episode of the show about 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:46.519 the mind flares of Dungeons and Dragons. Uh, and it's 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:50.640 led various folks to request another episode dealing with something 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:53.760 from the world of Dungeons and Dragons. And likewise, last 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:56.680 year we did an episode on the Great Basilisk where 0:02:56.680 --> 0:03:01.800 we talk about this concept of not only the monstrous Bassilist, 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:06.040 but this kind of uh, you know, tech world futuristic 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:11.880 vision of an all powerful, malevolent AI. And so we 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:14.560 decided we we'd up the anti this year and discuss 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:17.880 an entity that kind of combines both of these themes. 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:21.640 And so we're going to talk about the Demogorgan. Now, 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:23.880 I would not be surprised for the largest portion of 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:26.600 you out there are familiar with the idea of a demogorgan, 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:30.600 primarily from the recent Netflix show Stranger Things. I guess 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:32.919 it's mainly the first season of that, right, Yeah, I 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:35.520 mean the creature it keeps popping up as well, but 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:38.640 it's mainly that that first excellent season of Stranger Things, 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:41.080 and uh, and I think that's a good place to start. 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:44.920 Like the most recent pop culture incarnation of the demogorgan. 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:48.280 It's probably one of the best new cinematic monsters that 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:51.760 we've encountered in recent years. Uh, you know, this category 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:55.600 confusion entity that's at once humanoid and be steal but 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:58.400 at times he's bipedal and other times it's crawling around 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:01.839 on all fours. It's like a v this fly trapped minotaur. Yeah, 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:04.280 that's the other cool aspect of it's It's it's head 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:08.120 at times looks like a featureless mask of flesh, but 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:10.800 then it opens up in these these flower petals, these 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:15.120 kind of uh you know, a razor toothed flower petals 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:18.360 around this gaping maw. But I also like that it's 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:21.560 a dimension hopper, right, which kind of means it's always 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:24.360 it could pop up anywhere. Yeah, it travels through dimensions, 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:27.640 though I'm uncertain if that's part of its natural abilities, 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:30.000 because we see it feeding on an egg in its 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.120 own dimension at one point. Uh. And perhaps it takes 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:35.760 to hunting in our world due to the weakening of 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:38.480 the connection between the two, uh, you know, due to 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:42.479 mad science, of course. Um. But if this is the case, 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:45.760 it's still quite proficient it traveling between the world's through 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:48.160 those rips and tears to acquire food. Right, So it 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:51.160 could actually be a rather mundane predator in its own world. 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:55.919 It's just that Matthew Modine and his psychic projects unleashed 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:59.000 this predator into it made it an invasive species in 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:01.919 our world. Right. Yeah, yeah, like it, like it. It 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:03.719 does pretty well in its own world, but here it 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:05.920 can really go at it, you know, like a Superman 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:08.520 with the Yellow Sun. Yeah. But of course in stranger Things, 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:11.880 we also learned that the kids in the in the story, 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:14.520 they name this creature the democ Organ because they are 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:18.560 actively playing dungeons and Dragons and they and they are 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:22.320 playing a campaign that involves the democ Organ. Uh. This, 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:25.240 this Prince of Demons, is mighty demon, lord of just 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:28.839 immense power. Now, Robert, I know that you have a 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:32.200 reputation as a quite cruel dungeon master yourself. So do 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:35.920 you subject to your adventuring travelers to a democ Organ 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:38.640 every now and then? No? Not not no, not yet. 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:40.440 And it's not the kind of thing you would you 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:44.640 would inflict on your adventures in a hap hazard fashion. 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:48.000 It is one of the most powerful entities in the game, 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:50.680 so it's it's the kind of thing you cap off 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:53.800 an entire campaign with that you would only throw at 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:58.000 you know, a higher level, like really high level characters. Um. 0:05:58.040 --> 0:05:59.920 I mean, I guess you could throw it in haphazardly. 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:01.920 You have just kind of a very casual game where 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:05.080 people have like just immensely powerful characters. In each week 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:07.880 you just battle some things that are tremendously powerful to 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:10.919 just see how it all shakes out. But um, for instance, 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:14.320 in the campaign Out of the Abyss, which is a 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:17.080 campaign that I've been playing in my group that I've 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:20.200 been dungeon mastering for about four years now, we are 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:23.839 almost at the point where the Demogorgon may be encountered. 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:26.159 Oh yeah, so we've been building up to it. Do 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:30.120 you have demogorgon que music ready to go when it happens? Basically, 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:31.840 I mean, it's a it's a big deal. It's uh, 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:34.960 you know, we have an enormous figuring that we've been 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:38.240 putting together. It's a it's huge. Okay, Well, in the 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:42.280 Dungeons and Dragons world, what is this demogorgon creature? It's 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:45.640 obviously nothing like what's in Stranger things like that. It's 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:49.320 not a venus, fly trap minotaur, right, So in Dungeons 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:53.040 and Dragons. The Demogorgon dates back to nineteen seventy six. 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:57.920 That's when this entity originated in a supplement titled Eldric 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:02.800 Wizards by Gary Gyga himself and Brian Bloom. And if 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:04.960 you look around online you can find this in PDF 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.960 form and it has some you know, some adorably kind 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:12.360 of crude illustrations of what the various creatures would look like. 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:15.560 Those those those the illustrations, and Dungeons and Dragons have 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:18.720 come a long way. Like the most like the earliest 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:21.720 version of the democ organ that is illustrated in this 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:24.840 book is which just crude sketch of this, uh, this 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:29.240 kind of two headed tentacle armed, chicken footed thing with 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:31.920 baboon heads, right yeah, with baboon heads. But the like, 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:35.240 it's cute. I mean, it's like it's kind of like 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:39.920 the monsters in the Ranking and Bass Middle Earth. Yea. 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:41.840 And of course, you know, part most the big thing 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:44.080 abou Dungeons and Dragons is it does take place in 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:46.240 the mind, and especially early on they did, they didn't 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:49.280 have elaborate illustrations. You're supposed to, you know, come up 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:52.800 with it yourself. Today we have elaborate illustrations the most 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:55.640 recent fifth edition illustrations of the democ Organ are just 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:59.760 absolutely beautiful where it seems like there's like a burning 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.360 on inside of the creature. But I want to read 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:07.760 just a quick description from that original nine supplement to 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:11.280 to properly describe what the creature looks like, because the 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:15.520 basic description has not changed. Okay, melt my mind with terror. Okay, 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:20.840 quoth guy GaX and bloom here. Uh. It is contended 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:24.080 by some that this demon lord is supreme, and in 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:27.880 any event, he is awesome in his power. This gigantic 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:32.080 demon is eighteen tall and reptilian. His skin is plated 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:34.959 with snake like scales, His body and legs are those 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:38.720 of a giant lizard, His twin necks resemble snakes, and 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:42.880 his thick tail is forked. Dimagorgan has two heads which 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:47.200 bear the visages of evil baboons or perhaps mandrils. Rather 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:51.160 than having arms, he has great tentacles. His appearance testifies 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:56.160 to his command of cold blooded things such as serpents, reptiles, 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:59.600 and octopi. And Robert, you brought in a glorious figure 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:02.000 in the I now hold in my hand. It's uh, 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:04.559 it's very nice. Yeah, this is a small one, the 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:06.640 big one I couldn't even bring in because it's just 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:09.680 it's it's too enormous. It would alarm people. Uh and 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:11.920 they would they would wonder what was about to befall them. 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:15.920 So so yeah, basically, this description, though, holds up. It's 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:17.600 been tweaked a little bit. I think at one point 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:20.520 the heads were more hyena like because as I mentioned earlier, 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:23.680 we've had various editions of Dungeons and Dragons were on 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:26.959 addition five at this point, uh and uh and in 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:29.520 each edition has brought about various changes to the rules, 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:31.560 the mechanic, to the lore, and we'll get into some 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:34.040 of that in a minute as it relates to democgorgan 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.960 Um and then the art, who has mostly gotten just 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:40.880 tremendously better over the years. And again the most recent 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:44.760 fifth edition art is absolutely splendid to behold. But of course, 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:47.160 another thing to keep in mind is that the democ 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:50.760 organ is a demon, a demon lord. And given the 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:55.600 moral panics surrounding supposed Satanists and the the quote unquote 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:58.040 dangers of D and D back in the nineteen eighties, 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:02.240 the various demons and devils the game lore lost their titles. 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:05.240 At one point Um so when I originally started playing 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:08.640 back in the nineties, Uh, these various devils and demons 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:13.199 were known as uh the tenari uh instead of actually 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:17.400 referring to them as demons. So it's a rebrand. Yeah, 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:20.880 it was a rebrand because everyone was freaking out about 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:25.800 imagine Satanist, which I think we've discussed on the show before. 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:31.800 The Satanism as presented in the Satanic Panic of the 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:36.959 eighties did not exist, no one, No one has actually 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:43.080 no ritual um, you know, sacrificial uh worship of Satan 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:47.920 has has occurred in human history. Uh, certainly not on 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:52.160 the organized scale that uh that you see described in 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:55.959 some of these moral panics. But but anyway, Yeah, the 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:58.800 demonic edge was taken off the game for a while, 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:01.800 and if you wish to invoke such entities you had 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:05.480 to you had to bust out an older monster manual. Thankfully, 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:07.520 the Demons of the Abyss and the Devils of the 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:10.760 Nine Hells have made the return, and de mcgregan himself 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:13.120 is is not only back, but he's a he's a 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:15.240 cover batty, you know, he's he's there on the cover 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:18.880 of Out of the Abyss and is the the creature 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:21.120 that you battle at the very end, and you know 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:25.240 he's he's not only fearsome physically, he's also a highly 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:30.000 intelligent entity. He has an intelligent score of twenty, which is, 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:33.080 you know, like top of the d twenty. Okay, how 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:36.439 high does it go? Is twenty the most intelligent? Yeah, 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:40.640 twenty is is tremendously impressive. It's like a John von 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.200 Neumann kind of thing. Like it's I think, like a 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:46.160 ten is is more in keeping with like, you know, 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:49.280 sort of average human intelligence. This thing is beyond that. 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:53.680 Like eighteen is is like really high for a starting 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:58.079 character in Indungens of Dragons, starting mortal character. But the 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:01.960 Demcgorgon does not use the intelligence for the good of humankind. 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:04.520 The de m ocgorgan is gonna what is gonna design 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:08.520 the most neferious financial instruments that have ever been uh imagined? 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:12.280 Oh yeah, I mean he's he's completely chaotically evil. Um. 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:15.440 He's also known as the Sibilant Beast and the Master 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:18.880 of the Spiraling Depths and h by in those two heads, 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:21.680 each one has a name. In dungeons and dragon's lore, 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:26.880 one is Annual and the other is Hathoradia. Uh I 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:29.560 guess I don't know that anyone ever actually speaks to 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:31.199 one head or the other. You just kind of speak 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:33.079 to the de m Ocgorgan. Maybe that's the way to 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:35.520 beat it. You get them fighting each other. Maybe, I 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:39.120 don't know. I mean it basically, he's this wonderful embodiment 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:42.920 of like chaos and disorder, and uh I you know, 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:46.200 I think he wonderfully, you know, embodies the sense of 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:50.120 maddening division. Kind of a perfect demon for modern times especially. 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:51.800 And I also like to think of the two heads 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:55.480 is representing like the different hemispheres of the brain. Okay, 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:58.880 so maybe only one of them can do a complex language, 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:02.240 maybe so, yuh. But but also I like the idea 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:04.800 that the demon lords like are these mighty things, but 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:09.360 perhaps they exist because they're they're like the accumulated runoff 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:13.280 of all like human inequity, you know. And of course 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:15.280 there are other demon lords as well, and they all 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:18.760 plot against each other and war eternally. They represent different 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:23.640 depths of moral sin. So Demogorgan's most prominent rivals are Orcus, 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:26.559 the demon Lord of undeath, as well as the demon 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:30.040 Lord of perversion graz It, and the Master of Lies 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:34.080 fraz are Blue. But He's also opposed by Bahamat you know, 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:37.240 Gou and then of course Jubilex and Zuktimi, who we've 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:39.840 mentioned in passing on the show before. Wait, so one 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:42.080 of his rivals is Orcas. You know. We began this 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:45.080 episode with a reading from John Milton's Paradise Lost, in 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:48.319 which the name Orcus is invoked. They don't really explain, 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:52.600 Milton doesn't go into who Orcus is there, but uh so, 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:55.559 I didn't expect Orcas to come back. Also in the 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:58.440 D and D law here, Yeah, I mean Orcus was 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:02.720 a Roman god of the under world who punished oathbreakers. 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:04.599 And oh and by the way, he also has his 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:10.120 own designated trans Newtonian object in zero four A two Orcus. 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:13.160 Not all demon lords can make that claim that they 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:17.480 actually have some sort of cosmic body named after them. 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:20.400 But this gets to the point that the D and 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:24.240 D is this wonderful mix of influences, fusing various twentieth 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:28.160 century fantasy and sci fi works with mythology and flow 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.880 in folklore to create its worlds. So that's so Orcus 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:36.080 obviously comes from Roman mythology. There are other creatures we mentioned. 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:38.920 Bahammed Bahamed is the entity that the knights templars who 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:41.920 are accused of worshiping in the fourteenth century and we're 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:45.960 subsequently eradicated for uh. So you know that's where that 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:48.640 name comes from. But then there's d m ocg Oregan 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:52.240 to consider, and uh and obviously the name predates dungeons 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:55.880 and dragons because it pops up in Paradise Lost. Yeah, 0:14:56.120 --> 0:15:01.120 so you would I think, obviously expect given the word demogorgon, 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.520 that this is something from Greek mythology, right, just sounds 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.760 like something straight out of Greeks were of course, like 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:10.040 like Medusa. So you might think, oh, well, this is 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:13.120 some this is some Greek monster that gets turned into 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:15.840 a god at some point. But despite what you would 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:19.160 think from the name, you will not find the Demogorgon 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:22.480 in ancient Greek mythology. You flipped through the works of Homer, 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:26.640 labors of Hercules, myths of Antalympus, cults of Athena or Apollo, 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:30.920 you're gonna find no demogorgan anywhere. So where does this 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:35.440 beast come from? Well, we've we've considered pop culture, and 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:38.880 we've considered uh, you know, a current twenty first century 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:43.040 Netflix show. We've considered a twentieth century role playing game. 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:45.000 So what we're gonna do is we're gonna dive deeper. 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:47.960 We're gonna go into the literary world and continue to 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:52.440 follow follow the shadow of Demogorgan through the spiraling depths. 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:58.880 But first we're gonna take a break. Alright, We're back, alright. 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:01.240 So we've been talking about the monster, the demon lord, 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:04.840 the dem Organ as it is represented in Dungeons and Dragons, 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:08.280 and Robert has some experience with that. But we now 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:10.280 have said that we need to go deeper because we're 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:12.920 trying to figure out where this monster came from. If 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:15.040 it doesn't come from what you would guess based on 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:17.760 its name Greek mythology, right, And our next step is 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:20.720 to look at its very the way its name is 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:24.800 invoked in various works of literature. So one of the 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:27.360 books I was looking at on this count was a 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:30.760 book called Dangerous Games. What the Moral Panic over role 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:33.640 Playing Games says about play, religion, and imagined worlds, by 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:36.920 Joseph P. Laycock, And uh, this is this is an 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:39.360 interesting looking book that I really want to read more from. 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:43.520 But the author mentions that DeMorgan pops up in a 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:48.080 number of early modern and Romantic works. Uh. Interestingly enough, 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:51.440 Leacock also highlights an author and RPG named that I've 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:55.000 brought up on the show before. You may are Barker. Um, 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:57.880 you know the this is this guy who is known 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:02.600 for creating these books and this role world of Tucamel, 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:06.720 which is this fantasy. It's the sci fi fantasy world 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:10.840 that depends less far less on Western models of of 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:14.359 history and religion and uh in myth and more on 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:18.960 East Asian models. So uh there, if you're into fantasy, 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:21.000 I recommend picking up those books. They are a little 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:23.639 old fashioned in some respects, like they're very much in 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:26.399 the mold of like kind of a swashbuckling uh, you know, 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:31.000 male centered adventure. But the world that he created is 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:35.520 really something to behold. But anyway, he he points out, quote, 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:38.879 the prominence of original fantasy religions in D and D 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:42.280 as opposed to adaptations of Christian saints and demons, can 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:46.520 be attributed largely to the influence of M. A. R. Barker. Uh, 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:50.359 because Barker was was very active in that whole scene 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:53.280 at the time. These various individuals like Geykax and others 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:56.800 who were creating these role playing worlds. But as should 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:59.840 be clear from us talking about John Milton, the demogorgon 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:04.119 is not something that is a purely created, uh you know, 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:07.520 fantasy religion creature. It actually does have more of a history. 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:11.919 It goes back into Christian mythology in some way. So again, 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:16.199 whence the democ organ? Can we trace it back through literature? Yeah, well, 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:19.880 let's look at some of the key examples of literary 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:23.280 democ organ that pop up. Well, let's start with Milton's 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:26.560 Paradise Lost. We read that fantastic quote from it in 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:29.919 our cold open Uh. Paradise Losses, of course, the masterpiece 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:32.160 of John Milton, who lives sixteen o eight through six 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:36.080 seventy four, and which he sets no higher goal than 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.920 to quote justify the ways of God demand which I 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:44.280 always love that, like they just just really going for 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:47.000 it with this work, you know, um. And to achieve 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:51.760 this lofty goal, he retells the creation and the angelic 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:54.160 fall and the fall of man, and in doing so 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:57.720 creates a Satan that is uh, in some people's eyes, 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:03.720 problematically uh sympathetic and tragic. Yeah. Now, I think you 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:07.719 can easily say that Milton was not like sympathetic towards Satan. 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:11.160 He was a devout, devoted Protestant Christian. But I've seen 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:15.719 I've seen that criticism leveled at him, particularly in when 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:19.520 I was growing up reading some particularly various like Christian 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:23.800 fundamentalists of views of demonology and the treatment of demons 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:26.720 and angels, and literature that would chart to another like, 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:30.280 oh Milton made uh he he made Satan way too likable. Yeah, 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:34.239 I mean I think if you've got no tolerance at all, uh, 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:37.119 then then yeah, might might go too far for you. 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:39.080 But I think one thing he sets out to achieve 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:42.680 and does in Paradise Lost is he shows sin as 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:48.080 as going astray, you know, as folly, as like following uh, 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:51.280 following a misguided path, and not always just kind of 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:57.240 this like uh, indefinable miasma of horrible nous. People often 0:19:57.240 --> 0:19:58.960 like to think of the devil is like something you 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:02.440 can't even look at. But Milton's devil. I mean the 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:06.919 kind of scary thing about the devil in classic conceptions 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:09.000 of it is that he's seductive and that he makes 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:13.040 good arguments. Yeah again, I mean de mcgregan and dn 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:16.200 D has that intelligence of twenty wisdom of seventeen. You'd 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:20.159 expect as much at least from Satan. Yeah, now in 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:23.280 Paradise lost, of course, Satan Ultimately he loses a war 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:25.720 in heaven. He falls down with his demons. They get 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:28.199 cast into Hell. They have a big debate about what 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:30.919 to do about this. Some demons counsel that they should, 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:33.080 you know, take up arms, and I think Malock says, 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:36.280 let's go fight again. Some say, you know, we're down here, 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:37.840 we can do just let's make the best of it. 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:41.560 You know, Hell's not so bad. And but but Satan 0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:44.600 gets to this idea He's going to get revenge by 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:49.240 by corrupting God's favorite creation, the human, and spoiler, he 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:53.640 pulls it off. But yeah, this epic poem, you can 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:55.080 see you can almost think of it as kind of 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:58.720 a reboot or kind of like an amazing piece of 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:03.000 of biblical and fiction where he fleshes out this idea 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:05.320 of a war in heaven and he adds in all 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:08.920 sorts of dramatic and gnarly details. One I always liked 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:12.879 is that he forges a sword for the Archangeel Michael uh, 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:16.480 that is powerful enough to cut through anything, including the 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:20.320 flesh of other angels. God forges the sword, you mean, yeah, yeah, 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:22.600 who did I say forged it. Oh, I thought it 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:25.280 sounded like you're saying Satan did. Okay, well I'm probably 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:27.679 thinking Saranto because we just did that right, right, But 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:30.840 to be clear, and God made the sword. Yeah, that's cood. Well, 0:21:30.880 --> 0:21:32.679 I mean, I feel like there's so much stuff in 0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:36.400 Paradise Lost. And we were talking before we came into 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:39.280 the studio here about Dante as well, where there are 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:43.520 these great works of literature within the Christian literary tradition 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:48.359 that get incorporated into people's theology, like they forget that 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:53.000 stuff that's just in Paradise Lost isn't actually in the Bible, right, Yeah, 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:55.719 And and we can thank Dante for the pretty much 0:21:55.720 --> 0:21:59.240 the whole concept of of purgatory becoming so prominent in 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:03.480 when in West traditions. But but yeah, so so in 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:07.040 creating Paradise Lost, Milton, he drags in a number of 0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:09.400 names and develops a more demon names that do pop 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:13.000 up in the Bible, like the Elzeba, Belial, Mammon, Moloc. 0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:17.600 But then he also drags in Orcus and Demogorgon, and 0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:21.960 then there are seemingly new creations like most mus saber Uh, 0:22:22.080 --> 0:22:25.680 the architect of Pandemonium, the capital of Hell. So de 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:28.879 mcgorgan is mentioned in book two and you heard it 0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:31.520 at the start of this episode described and this is 0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:35.680 a section of Paradise Lass that describes Satan's voyage out 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:38.680 of Hell with sin and death. So the dem Ogregan 0:22:38.800 --> 0:22:42.320 is basically a background player's texture. Yeah, just add a 0:22:42.320 --> 0:22:44.760 little texture to this scene as Satan crosses the wilds 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:47.680 of chaos and night that span the void between Heaven 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:50.800 and Hell. And there are other literary invocations of the 0:22:50.840 --> 0:22:53.479 Demogorgon that I would say are basically the same. They 0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:57.840 use the demogorgan not as a major figure of significance, 0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:00.960 but something is sort of texture to a dablished that 0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:05.000 a place is sort of ultimately abandoned by God and 0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:07.840 and wretched, you know, like it's just really horrible. And 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:10.320