1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to blow your mind. My name 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And hey folks, 3 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:13,120 Speaker 1: Robert and I were out of the office for a bit. 4 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: I guess whatever you would call the office right now. 5 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: We were out of the home office for a bit. Uh. 6 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: So we are running a vault episode today. We're going 7 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: into the vault for a classic episode on the demo Organ. Yeah, 8 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: this is a fun one. It's one that we referenced 9 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,479 Speaker 1: recently on the show, so we thought what better time 10 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: than now to unleash the demogorgan once again. This originally 11 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 1: aired on October one, twenty nineteen. I have very fond memories. 12 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: I think you'll enjoy it at length. The universal Hubbub, 13 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: wild of stunning sounds and voices, all confused, born through 14 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: the hollow dark, assaults his ear with loudest vehemence. Thither 15 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: he applies, undaunted and eat their whatever power or spirit 16 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 1: of the nethermost abyss might in that noise reside of 17 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,759 Speaker 1: whom to ask which way the nearest coast of darkness 18 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: lies bordering on light? When straight behold the throne of 19 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: chaos and his dark pavilion spread wide on the wasteful deep, 20 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: with him enthroned sat sable, vested night, eldest of things, 21 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,479 Speaker 1: the consort of his reign. And by them stood orcas 22 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: and eighties and the dreaded name of dim Rumor. Next 23 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: and chants and tumult and confusion, all embroiled and discord 24 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: with a thousand various mouths. Welcome to Stuff to Blow 25 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: Your Mind, a production of I Heart Radios, How Stuff Work. 26 00:01:57,760 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: Hey you, Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 27 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick, and I'm 28 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: so excited. It's my favorite time of the year. It's October, 29 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: which is my favorite month of the year anyway, but 30 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: it's also my favorite time of the year at work 31 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: because it's Monster Month. Here on Stuff to Blow your Mind, 32 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: that's right when we devote the entire month of October 33 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: and sometimes a little change two topics that are either 34 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: obsessed with monsters or or darkness or horror or terror. 35 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: Is there anything even remotely HALLOWEENI We just fully embrace it. 36 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: It's the most wonderful time of the year. And so 37 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: and you know, as we were coming up with episodes 38 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: to record this year, where we you know, our minds 39 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:39,119 Speaker 1: turned to things we've covered in the past. So on 40 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: one hand, there's an old episode of the show about 41 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,519 Speaker 1: the mind flares of Dungeons and Dragons. Uh, and it's 42 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: led various folks to request another episode dealing with something 43 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: from the world of Dungeons and Dragons. And likewise, last 44 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: year we did an episode on the Great Basilisk where 45 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 1: we talk about this concept of not only the monstrous Bassilist, 46 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: but this kind of uh, you know, tech world futuristic 47 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: vision of an all powerful, malevolent AI. And so we 48 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: decided we we'd up the anti this year and discuss 49 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: an entity that kind of combines both of these themes. 50 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 1: And so we're going to talk about the Demogorgan. Now, 51 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: I would not be surprised for the largest portion of 52 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: you out there are familiar with the idea of a demogorgan, 53 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: primarily from the recent Netflix show Stranger Things. I guess 54 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: it's mainly the first season of that, right, Yeah, I 55 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: mean the creature it keeps popping up as well, but 56 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: it's mainly that that first excellent season of Stranger Things, 57 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: and uh, and I think that's a good place to start. 58 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: Like the most recent pop culture incarnation of the demogorgan. 59 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: It's probably one of the best new cinematic monsters that 60 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: we've encountered in recent years. Uh, you know, this category 61 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: confusion entity that's at once humanoid and be steal but 62 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: at times he's bipedal and other times it's crawling around 63 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,839 Speaker 1: on all fours. It's like a v this fly trapped minotaur. Yeah, 64 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: that's the other cool aspect of it's It's it's head 65 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: at times looks like a featureless mask of flesh, but 66 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: then it opens up in these these flower petals, these 67 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: kind of uh you know, a razor toothed flower petals 68 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: around this gaping maw. But I also like that it's 69 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: a dimension hopper, right, which kind of means it's always 70 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 1: it could pop up anywhere. Yeah, it travels through dimensions, 71 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: though I'm uncertain if that's part of its natural abilities, 72 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: because we see it feeding on an egg in its 73 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: own dimension at one point. Uh. And perhaps it takes 74 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: to hunting in our world due to the weakening of 75 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 1: the connection between the two, uh, you know, due to 76 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 1: mad science, of course. Um. But if this is the case, 77 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: it's still quite proficient it traveling between the world's through 78 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: those rips and tears to acquire food. Right, So it 79 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 1: could actually be a rather mundane predator in its own world. 80 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 1: It's just that Matthew Modine and his psychic projects unleashed 81 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: this predator into it made it an invasive species in 82 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 1: our world. Right. Yeah, yeah, like it, like it. It 83 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: does pretty well in its own world, but here it 84 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: can really go at it, you know, like a Superman 85 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: with the Yellow Sun. Yeah. But of course in stranger Things, 86 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: we also learned that the kids in the in the story, 87 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: they name this creature the democ Organ because they are 88 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: actively playing dungeons and Dragons and they and they are 89 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: playing a campaign that involves the democ Organ. Uh. This, 90 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: this Prince of Demons, is mighty demon, lord of just 91 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: immense power. Now, Robert, I know that you have a 92 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: reputation as a quite cruel dungeon master yourself. So do 93 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 1: you subject to your adventuring travelers to a democ Organ 94 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: every now and then? No? Not not no, not yet. 95 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: And it's not the kind of thing you would you 96 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: would inflict on your adventures in a hap hazard fashion. 97 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: It is one of the most powerful entities in the game, 98 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: so it's it's the kind of thing you cap off 99 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: an entire campaign with that you would only throw at 100 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: you know, a higher level, like really high level characters. Um. 101 00:05:58,040 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess you could throw it in haphazardly. 102 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: You have just kind of a very casual game where 103 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: people have like just immensely powerful characters. In each week 104 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: you just battle some things that are tremendously powerful to 105 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 1: just see how it all shakes out. But um, for instance, 106 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: in the campaign Out of the Abyss, which is a 107 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: campaign that I've been playing in my group that I've 108 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: been dungeon mastering for about four years now, we are 109 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 1: almost at the point where the Demogorgon may be encountered. 110 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so we've been building up to it. Do 111 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: you have demogorgon que music ready to go when it happens? Basically, 112 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a it's a big deal. It's uh, 113 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: you know, we have an enormous figuring that we've been 114 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: putting together. It's a it's huge. Okay, Well, in the 115 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons world, what is this demogorgon creature? It's 116 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: obviously nothing like what's in Stranger things like that. It's 117 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: not a venus, fly trap minotaur, right, So in Dungeons 118 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: and Dragons. The Demogorgon dates back to nineteen seventy six. 119 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: That's when this entity originated in a supplement titled Eldric 120 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: Wizards by Gary Gyga himself and Brian Bloom. And if 121 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: you look around online you can find this in PDF 122 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: form and it has some you know, some adorably kind 123 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: of crude illustrations of what the various creatures would look like. 124 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: Those those those the illustrations, and Dungeons and Dragons have 125 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: come a long way. Like the most like the earliest 126 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: version of the democ organ that is illustrated in this 127 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: book is which just crude sketch of this, uh, this 128 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: kind of two headed tentacle armed, chicken footed thing with 129 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: baboon heads, right yeah, with baboon heads. But the like, 130 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: it's cute. I mean, it's like it's kind of like 131 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: the monsters in the Ranking and Bass Middle Earth. Yea. 132 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: And of course, you know, part most the big thing 133 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: abou Dungeons and Dragons is it does take place in 134 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: the mind, and especially early on they did, they didn't 135 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: have elaborate illustrations. You're supposed to, you know, come up 136 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: with it yourself. Today we have elaborate illustrations the most 137 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: recent fifth edition illustrations of the democ Organ are just 138 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: absolutely beautiful where it seems like there's like a burning 139 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: on inside of the creature. But I want to read 140 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: just a quick description from that original nine supplement to 141 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: to properly describe what the creature looks like, because the 142 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: basic description has not changed. Okay, melt my mind with terror. Okay, 143 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: quoth guy GaX and bloom here. Uh. It is contended 144 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: by some that this demon lord is supreme, and in 145 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: any event, he is awesome in his power. This gigantic 146 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: demon is eighteen tall and reptilian. His skin is plated 147 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 1: with snake like scales, His body and legs are those 148 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: of a giant lizard, His twin necks resemble snakes, and 149 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: his thick tail is forked. Dimagorgan has two heads which 150 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: bear the visages of evil baboons or perhaps mandrils. Rather 151 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: than having arms, he has great tentacles. His appearance testifies 152 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: to his command of cold blooded things such as serpents, reptiles, 153 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: and octopi. And Robert, you brought in a glorious figure 154 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: in the I now hold in my hand. It's uh, 155 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 1: it's very nice. Yeah, this is a small one, the 156 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: big one I couldn't even bring in because it's just 157 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: it's it's too enormous. It would alarm people. Uh and 158 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: they would they would wonder what was about to befall them. 159 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: So so yeah, basically, this description, though, holds up. It's 160 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: been tweaked a little bit. I think at one point 161 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: the heads were more hyena like because as I mentioned earlier, 162 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: we've had various editions of Dungeons and Dragons were on 163 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,959 Speaker 1: addition five at this point, uh and uh and in 164 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: each edition has brought about various changes to the rules, 165 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: the mechanic, to the lore, and we'll get into some 166 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: of that in a minute as it relates to democgorgan 167 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: Um and then the art, who has mostly gotten just 168 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: tremendously better over the years. And again the most recent 169 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: fifth edition art is absolutely splendid to behold. But of course, 170 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: another thing to keep in mind is that the democ 171 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: organ is a demon, a demon lord. And given the 172 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: moral panics surrounding supposed Satanists and the the quote unquote 173 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: dangers of D and D back in the nineteen eighties, 174 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: the various demons and devils the game lore lost their titles. 175 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: At one point Um so when I originally started playing 176 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: back in the nineties, Uh, these various devils and demons 177 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:13,199 Speaker 1: were known as uh the tenari uh instead of actually 178 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: referring to them as demons. So it's a rebrand. Yeah, 179 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: it was a rebrand because everyone was freaking out about 180 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: imagine Satanist, which I think we've discussed on the show before. 181 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: The Satanism as presented in the Satanic Panic of the 182 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:36,959 Speaker 1: eighties did not exist, no one, No one has actually 183 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: no ritual um, you know, sacrificial uh worship of Satan 184 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: has has occurred in human history. Uh, certainly not on 185 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: the organized scale that uh that you see described in 186 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 1: some of these moral panics. But but anyway, Yeah, the 187 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: demonic edge was taken off the game for a while, 188 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: and if you wish to invoke such entities you had 189 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: to you had to bust out an older monster manual. Thankfully, 190 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: the Demons of the Abyss and the Devils of the 191 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: Nine Hells have made the return, and de mcgregan himself 192 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: is is not only back, but he's a he's a 193 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: cover batty, you know, he's he's there on the cover 194 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: of Out of the Abyss and is the the creature 195 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: that you battle at the very end, and you know 196 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: he's he's not only fearsome physically, he's also a highly 197 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: intelligent entity. He has an intelligent score of twenty, which is, 198 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: you know, like top of the d twenty. Okay, how 199 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 1: high does it go? Is twenty the most intelligent? Yeah, 200 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: twenty is is tremendously impressive. It's like a John von 201 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 1: Neumann kind of thing. Like it's I think, like a 202 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: ten is is more in keeping with like, you know, 203 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: sort of average human intelligence. This thing is beyond that. 204 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: Like eighteen is is like really high for a starting 205 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:58,079 Speaker 1: character in Indungens of Dragons, starting mortal character. But the 206 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: Demcgorgon does not use the intelligence for the good of humankind. 207 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: The de m ocgorgan is gonna what is gonna design 208 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: the most neferious financial instruments that have ever been uh imagined? 209 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean he's he's completely chaotically evil. Um. 210 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 1: He's also known as the Sibilant Beast and the Master 211 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: of the Spiraling Depths and h by in those two heads, 212 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 1: each one has a name. In dungeons and dragon's lore, 213 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: one is Annual and the other is Hathoradia. Uh I 214 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 1: guess I don't know that anyone ever actually speaks to 215 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 1: one head or the other. You just kind of speak 216 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 1: to the de m Ocgorgan. Maybe that's the way to 217 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: beat it. You get them fighting each other. Maybe, I 218 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: don't know. I mean it basically, he's this wonderful embodiment 219 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: of like chaos and disorder, and uh I you know, 220 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 1: I think he wonderfully, you know, embodies the sense of 221 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: maddening division. Kind of a perfect demon for modern times especially. 222 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: And I also like to think of the two heads 223 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: is representing like the different hemispheres of the brain. Okay, 224 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: so maybe only one of them can do a complex language, 225 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: maybe so, yuh. But but also I like the idea 226 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: that the demon lords like are these mighty things, but 227 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: perhaps they exist because they're they're like the accumulated runoff 228 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: of all like human inequity, you know. And of course 229 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: there are other demon lords as well, and they all 230 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: plot against each other and war eternally. They represent different 231 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: depths of moral sin. So Demogorgan's most prominent rivals are Orcus, 232 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,559 Speaker 1: the demon Lord of undeath, as well as the demon 233 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: Lord of perversion graz It, and the Master of Lies 234 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 1: fraz are Blue. But He's also opposed by Bahamat you know, 235 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: Gou and then of course Jubilex and Zuktimi, who we've 236 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 1: mentioned in passing on the show before. Wait, so one 237 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: of his rivals is Orcas. You know. We began this 238 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: episode with a reading from John Milton's Paradise Lost, in 239 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 1: which the name Orcus is invoked. They don't really explain, 240 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: Milton doesn't go into who Orcus is there, but uh so, 241 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 1: I didn't expect Orcas to come back. Also in the 242 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 1: D and D law here, Yeah, I mean Orcus was 243 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: a Roman god of the under world who punished oathbreakers. 244 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:04,599 Speaker 1: And oh and by the way, he also has his 245 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: own designated trans Newtonian object in zero four A two Orcus. 246 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: Not all demon lords can make that claim that they 247 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: actually have some sort of cosmic body named after them. 248 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: But this gets to the point that the D and 249 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: D is this wonderful mix of influences, fusing various twentieth 250 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: century fantasy and sci fi works with mythology and flow 251 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: in folklore to create its worlds. So that's so Orcus 252 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: obviously comes from Roman mythology. There are other creatures we mentioned. 253 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: Bahammed Bahamed is the entity that the knights templars who 254 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: are accused of worshiping in the fourteenth century and we're 255 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: subsequently eradicated for uh. So you know that's where that 256 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: name comes from. But then there's d m ocg Oregan 257 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: to consider, and uh and obviously the name predates dungeons 258 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: and dragons because it pops up in Paradise Lost. Yeah, 259 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: so you would I think, obviously expect given the word demogorgon, 260 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: that this is something from Greek mythology, right, just sounds 261 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: like something straight out of Greeks were of course, like 262 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: like Medusa. So you might think, oh, well, this is 263 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: some this is some Greek monster that gets turned into 264 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: a god at some point. But despite what you would 265 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: think from the name, you will not find the Demogorgon 266 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: in ancient Greek mythology. You flipped through the works of Homer, 267 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: labors of Hercules, myths of Antalympus, cults of Athena or Apollo, 268 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: you're gonna find no demogorgan anywhere. So where does this 269 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: beast come from? Well, we've we've considered pop culture, and 270 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: we've considered uh, you know, a current twenty first century 271 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: Netflix show. We've considered a twentieth century role playing game. 272 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: So what we're gonna do is we're gonna dive deeper. 273 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: We're gonna go into the literary world and continue to 274 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: follow follow the shadow of Demogorgan through the spiraling depths. 275 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: But first we're gonna take a break. Alright, We're back, alright. 276 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: So we've been talking about the monster, the demon lord, 277 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: the dem Organ as it is represented in Dungeons and Dragons, 278 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: and Robert has some experience with that. But we now 279 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: have said that we need to go deeper because we're 280 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: trying to figure out where this monster came from. If 281 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: it doesn't come from what you would guess based on 282 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: its name Greek mythology, right, And our next step is 283 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: to look at its very the way its name is 284 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: invoked in various works of literature. So one of the 285 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: books I was looking at on this count was a 286 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: book called Dangerous Games. What the Moral Panic over role 287 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: Playing Games says about play, religion, and imagined worlds, by 288 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: Joseph P. Laycock, And uh, this is this is an 289 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: interesting looking book that I really want to read more from. 290 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: But the author mentions that DeMorgan pops up in a 291 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: number of early modern and Romantic works. Uh. Interestingly enough, 292 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: Leacock also highlights an author and RPG named that I've 293 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: brought up on the show before. You may are Barker. Um, 294 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: you know the this is this guy who is known 295 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: for creating these books and this role world of Tucamel, 296 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: which is this fantasy. It's the sci fi fantasy world 297 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: that depends less far less on Western models of of 298 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 1: history and religion and uh in myth and more on 299 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: East Asian models. So uh there, if you're into fantasy, 300 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: I recommend picking up those books. They are a little 301 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 1: old fashioned in some respects, like they're very much in 302 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 1: the mold of like kind of a swashbuckling uh, you know, 303 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: male centered adventure. But the world that he created is 304 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: really something to behold. But anyway, he he points out, quote, 305 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 1: the prominence of original fantasy religions in D and D 306 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: as opposed to adaptations of Christian saints and demons, can 307 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: be attributed largely to the influence of M. A. R. Barker. Uh, 308 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 1: because Barker was was very active in that whole scene 309 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: at the time. These various individuals like Geykax and others 310 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: who were creating these role playing worlds. But as should 311 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: be clear from us talking about John Milton, the demogorgon 312 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: is not something that is a purely created, uh you know, 313 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: fantasy religion creature. It actually does have more of a history. 314 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: It goes back into Christian mythology in some way. So again, 315 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 1: whence the democ organ? Can we trace it back through literature? Yeah, well, 316 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 1: let's look at some of the key examples of literary 317 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: democ organ that pop up. Well, let's start with Milton's 318 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: Paradise Lost. We read that fantastic quote from it in 319 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 1: our cold open Uh. Paradise Losses, of course, the masterpiece 320 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 1: of John Milton, who lives sixteen o eight through six 321 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: seventy four, and which he sets no higher goal than 322 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: to quote justify the ways of God demand which I 323 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: always love that, like they just just really going for 324 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: it with this work, you know, um. And to achieve 325 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: this lofty goal, he retells the creation and the angelic 326 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: fall and the fall of man, and in doing so 327 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: creates a Satan that is uh, in some people's eyes, 328 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: problematically uh sympathetic and tragic. Yeah. Now, I think you 329 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,719 Speaker 1: can easily say that Milton was not like sympathetic towards Satan. 330 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 1: He was a devout, devoted Protestant Christian. But I've seen 331 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,719 Speaker 1: I've seen that criticism leveled at him, particularly in when 332 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: I was growing up reading some particularly various like Christian 333 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: fundamentalists of views of demonology and the treatment of demons 334 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: and angels, and literature that would chart to another like, 335 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: oh Milton made uh he he made Satan way too likable. Yeah, 336 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:34,239 Speaker 1: I mean I think if you've got no tolerance at all, uh, 337 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 1: then then yeah, might might go too far for you. 338 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: But I think one thing he sets out to achieve 339 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 1: and does in Paradise Lost is he shows sin as 340 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: as going astray, you know, as folly, as like following uh, 341 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: following a misguided path, and not always just kind of 342 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: this like uh, indefinable miasma of horrible nous. People often 343 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: like to think of the devil is like something you 344 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: can't even look at. But Milton's devil. I mean the 345 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 1: kind of scary thing about the devil in classic conceptions 346 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: of it is that he's seductive and that he makes 347 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: good arguments. Yeah again, I mean de mcgregan and dn 348 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: D has that intelligence of twenty wisdom of seventeen. You'd 349 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: expect as much at least from Satan. Yeah, now in 350 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: Paradise lost, of course, Satan Ultimately he loses a war 351 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: in heaven. He falls down with his demons. They get 352 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 1: cast into Hell. They have a big debate about what 353 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 1: to do about this. Some demons counsel that they should, 354 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: you know, take up arms, and I think Malock says, 355 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: let's go fight again. Some say, you know, we're down here, 356 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: we can do just let's make the best of it. 357 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: You know, Hell's not so bad. And but but Satan 358 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: gets to this idea He's going to get revenge by 359 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: by corrupting God's favorite creation, the human, and spoiler, he 360 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 1: pulls it off. But yeah, this epic poem, you can 361 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: see you can almost think of it as kind of 362 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: a reboot or kind of like an amazing piece of 363 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: of biblical and fiction where he fleshes out this idea 364 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: of a war in heaven and he adds in all 365 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: sorts of dramatic and gnarly details. One I always liked 366 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,879 Speaker 1: is that he forges a sword for the Archangeel Michael uh, 367 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: that is powerful enough to cut through anything, including the 368 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: flesh of other angels. God forges the sword, you mean, yeah, yeah, 369 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: who did I say forged it. Oh, I thought it 370 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: sounded like you're saying Satan did. Okay, well I'm probably 371 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 1: thinking Saranto because we just did that right, right, But 372 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: to be clear, and God made the sword. Yeah, that's cood. Well, 373 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:32,679 Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like there's so much stuff in 374 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 1: Paradise Lost. And we were talking before we came into 375 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: the studio here about Dante as well, where there are 376 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: these great works of literature within the Christian literary tradition 377 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: that get incorporated into people's theology, like they forget that 378 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: stuff that's just in Paradise Lost isn't actually in the Bible, right, Yeah, 379 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,719 Speaker 1: And and we can thank Dante for the pretty much 380 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: the whole concept of of purgatory becoming so prominent in 381 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: when in West traditions. But but yeah, so so in 382 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: creating Paradise Lost, Milton, he drags in a number of 383 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,400 Speaker 1: names and develops a more demon names that do pop 384 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: up in the Bible, like the Elzeba, Belial, Mammon, Moloc. 385 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: But then he also drags in Orcus and Demogorgon, and 386 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 1: then there are seemingly new creations like most mus saber Uh, 387 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 1: the architect of Pandemonium, the capital of Hell. So de 388 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: mcgorgan is mentioned in book two and you heard it 389 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: at the start of this episode described and this is 390 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 1: a section of Paradise Lass that describes Satan's voyage out 391 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: of Hell with sin and death. So the dem Ogregan 392 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: is basically a background player's texture. Yeah, just add a 393 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: little texture to this scene as Satan crosses the wilds 394 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 1: of chaos and night that span the void between Heaven 395 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: and Hell. And there are other literary invocations of the 396 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,479 Speaker 1: Demogorgon that I would say are basically the same. They 397 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: use the demogorgan not as a major figure of significance, 398 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: but something is sort of texture to a dablished that 399 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: a place is sort of ultimately abandoned by God and 400 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: and wretched, you know, like it's just really horrible. And 401 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: another great example of this is the way the demog 402 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 1: organ is invoked in Edmund Spencer's The Fairy Queen. Uh So, 403 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: if you've never read it, The Fairy Queen is also 404 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: it's like Paradise Lost, an English epic poem. It's from 405 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: the sixteenth century, so it's earlier than Paradise Lost, and 406 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: it's this really long poem about virtues and the adventures 407 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 1: of chivalrous nights. It's one of those that's uh, you know, 408 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: to modern readers. I think it has a whole lot 409 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 1: of interest in it, and there is some great poetry 410 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: in it, but also it can be very long and 411 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: ponderous and kind of stuffy in some ways, because I mean, 412 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: you can only read so much about piety and shipt um. 413 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: But it's long been interpreted as containing a lot of 414 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 1: allegorical representations of present figures and politics from the Elizabethan era. 415 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: When it was written, I think I was reading about 416 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: how spencer Um he secured himself a really nice pension 417 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: from the Elizabethan court by presenting the poem to Queen Elizabeth. 418 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: But again, the Demogorgan here does not appear as a 419 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: main character, but sort of as a bit of character 420 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,919 Speaker 1: for the landscape. So just to read one stands in 421 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 1: which it is invoked. Therefore desirous the end of all 422 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: their days to know and them to enlarge with long 423 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: extent by wondrous skill and many hidden ways to the 424 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 1: three Fatal Sisters house. She went far underground from Tract 425 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: of Living, went down in the bottom of the deep abyss, 426 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 1: where Demogorgan in dull darkness pent far from the view 427 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: of God's in Heaven's bliss, This hideous chaos keeps their 428 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: dreadful dwelling. Is So this character is going She's going 429 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: down into a into a dark, godforsaken place. And how 430 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,159 Speaker 1: do you signal places dark and God forsaken? How do 431 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: you show places evil and far from God? Well, you 432 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 1: mentioned it's where the demogorgan hangs out. So if the 433 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,360 Speaker 1: red Cross Night stands for piety and holiness, the Demogorgan 434 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: stands for unholiness and satanic chaos. Now, another work that's 435 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: uh that's often invoked that mentions the Demogorgon is another 436 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: sixteenth century work. It's an Italian epic poem by uh 437 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: Lodovico Ariosto, a titled Orlando Furioso, which is a poem 438 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: that concerns the night Orlando, who is known in French 439 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: traditions as Roland Uh. Now, at least in some versions 440 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: and translations, it does mention Demogorgon quote the ruler of fates. 441 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 1: But as far as I could tell, again, he's just background. 442 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: He's just texture that's added to this to a particular scene. 443 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: All right, So this gets us back to the fifteen 444 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: sixteenth century UM. And so we see by then that 445 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: the demogorgan is being invoked in UH literature written by 446 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 1: Christians as some kind of infernal demons, some bad thing. 447 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: Maybe it has something to do with fate, maybe it 448 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: has something to do with chaos. And there's an earlier 449 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,119 Speaker 1: source that came across that's a hundred years or so 450 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 1: before this UH, the fourteenth century Latin encyclopedia of pagan 451 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: gods in their relationships, known as Boccaccio's Gina Loggia deorum 452 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: Gentilium or the Genealogy of the Gods of the Gentiles. 453 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: This was written by the Italian poet Giovanni Boccaccio, and 454 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,120 Speaker 1: Boccaccio apparently was commissioned to sort of like put together this, 455 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: this compendium of all the bad old gods, you know, 456 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 1: the pagan stuff back then, and show the relationships to 457 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 1: each other, to make a family tree. I found an 458 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: addition and analysis by Ernest Hatch. Wilkins actually could not 459 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: find an English translation of this. I think there might 460 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: be one out there somewhere, but maybe it's not available online. UM. 461 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 1: But anyway, Wilkins, in this nineteen edition from the University 462 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: of Chicago Press, was discussing what is covered in this book, 463 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: and apparently in attempting to create a family tree of 464 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:02,360 Speaker 1: all pagan gods, Boccaccio regards the dem o Organ as 465 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,719 Speaker 1: the original pagan deity, like the great great grandfather of 466 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,919 Speaker 1: Jupiter or Zeus, from which all other pagan deities are descended. 467 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: So the family tree just starts right at the top Demogorgon. Alright, 468 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 1: So if you're if you're looking at various pagan gods 469 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: from a from this Christian standpoint where pagan gods are 470 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 1: a bad thing and perhaps are actually demons, then later 471 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: that's where we getting the idea that the Demogorgan is 472 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:35,719 Speaker 1: something primal and perhaps uh vile in nature, the very 473 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: first god. How strange. Now, it turns out this isn't 474 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: the first reference to a demo Organ and Christian literature, 475 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: and we will find an earlier mention of it later on. 476 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: But before we move on to that, I wanted to 477 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: talk about what I think is one of the most 478 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: interesting literary depictions of the demo Organ, definitely the most 479 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: interesting I've come across, and it's in Percy bish Shelley's 480 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 1: Prometheus Unbound. And this is of course Mary's husband yes, yes. 481 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: The husband of the author of Frankenstein, Percy B. Shelley, 482 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: was an English Romantic poet. This is a lyric drama, 483 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: so it's a drama sort of written in verse. The 484 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: play is a response to the Greek myth of Prometheus, 485 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 1: and Shelly first published it in eighteen twenty and he 486 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: explicitly presented it as this as a response to the 487 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: play Prometheus Bound by the ancient Greek playwright Escalus. So 488 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: the myth of Prometheus, you might know it well, but 489 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: just to refresh, it goes something like this. Prometheus was 490 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: one of a race of deities in ancient Greek religion 491 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: known as the Titans, and the Titans came before the 492 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: gods of Olympus. The Titans were offspring from the union 493 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: of Uranus the heavens and Gaya the earth, and they 494 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: ruled the earth until Chronus, the king of the Titans, 495 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: was dethroned and his allies were defeated by his son 496 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: Zeus and the Olympian gods. This is the War of 497 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: the Titans, or the Titanum macky um. So Prometheus was 498 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: one of the Titans, the son of the Titan Yapidus, 499 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: but he took the side of Zeus in the war 500 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: between the Olympians and the Titans, so he's still around 501 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: among the Olympian gods. And Zeus, of course is a creep, 502 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: as is Zeus is you just set your watch to it. 503 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: He's going to be a creep in a jerk. Zeus 504 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: doesn't want mortal humans down on earth like us, to 505 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: have power and knowledge like the gods. So he takes 506 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: this crucial step in this myth of hiding fire from 507 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: the humans. He takes fire from the earth, he hides 508 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: it amount Olympus. He says humans can't have it, and 509 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: Prometheus the Titan instead is sympathetic to humans, and so 510 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: what he does is he steals fire from where Zeus 511 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: had hidden it on Olympus, and he takes it down 512 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: to share with the mortals below. And this is a 513 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: trope that we see in various mythologies. So for instance, 514 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: there's a there's a nearly id intical role in Chinese 515 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: myth of the fire driller, who essentially does the same thing. 516 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: And when we see this again in so many stories, 517 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: there's some sort of knowledge of you know, some sort 518 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: of generally it's basically technological in nature and it is 519 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: taken from the gods one way or the other, borrowed 520 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: from the gods and bestowed be either bestowed to humans 521 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: by some benevolent entity like Prometheus, or it is just 522 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: straight up stolen from the gods by mortals. Well, I 523 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: think I like the Chinese version even better because in 524 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: that the god who brings the fire doesn't it explicitly 525 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: brings the technological means to make fire, not just the 526 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: fire itself, so the fire drill. Of course, you know, 527 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: if you ever used a bow drill, it's not so easy, 528 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: but you can make fire that way. I think Prometheus 529 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: is usually depicted as bringing like a burning branch or 530 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: something yeah like that. And granted that makes for a 531 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: much better sculpture of painting, right this naked Titan with 532 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: the with with this highly symbolic of a flaming torture branch. 533 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: But through the years Prometheus's gift to the humans, I 534 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: think it's more often interpreted along the lines of the 535 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: fire driller, where he's it's not just fire, Prometheus symbolizes 536 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: the power from the heavens, who betrays the leader god 537 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: and brings down general technology and knowledge and power and 538 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: succor to the humans, which which it's interesting that in 539 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,959 Speaker 1: Prometheus and the figure of Prometheus and the figure of 540 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: Satan have a lot in common, right, Oh kind of yeah, 541 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: because I mean, yes, Satan. One of the things that's 542 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: interesting about the story of Satan and the Garden of 543 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: Eden is that Satan does not lie to the humans. 544 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,959 Speaker 1: You know, he's presented as doing bad, but he he 545 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: encourages them to h to violate God's law in the 546 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: garden and eat from the tree that has forbidden to them. 547 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:51,959 Speaker 1: But he says, you can eat from this tree and 548 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: you will not die as you've been told you will. 549 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: And it it turns out it's true. They eat and 550 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,719 Speaker 1: it doesn't kill them, except you could make the argument 551 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: that maybe, well maybe it makes them mortal in the 552 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: long run. But I mean, basically, he's a disruptor, to 553 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: put it in like Silicon Valley terms, right, Like he's 554 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: trying to disrupt creation. Um. But so in the Greek myth, 555 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: of course, Prometheus being nice to the humans and betraying Zeus, 556 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: both the mortals and Prometheus are punished for this. The 557 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: punishment for humans is a sequence of events that leads 558 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: to the opening of Pandora's box, out of which flow 559 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: all the hardships and frailty of human life. You get plague, 560 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: you get toiled to survive all that stuff, and a 561 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: little bit of hope left over. I guess. Yeah. In 562 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: the bottom, uh, Prometheus is punished in a more explicit way. 563 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: He is bound to a rock in the Caucasus Mountains, 564 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: and not only has he chained up, but Zeus sends 565 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: a nasty eagle to peck out his liver each day, 566 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: and unfortunately, Prometheus is immortal, so his liver, as an 567 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: immortal liver, just keeps regenerating, and the eagle can fly 568 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: back and peck it out and eat it again the 569 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: next day. It sounds like a bad deal. Yeah, it's 570 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: a bad deal, But I don't know as far as, 571 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: like you know, offending Zeus goes. I guess it could 572 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: have been worse. I guess. So. Now, in response to 573 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: this myth, Shelly Percy bis Shelley in his play takes 574 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: up the banner of Prometheus and he makes him a 575 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: heroic figure in the play. And I would say this 576 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: is not surprising because you could definitely say that Percy 577 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: Shelley was of a revolutionary temperament theologically, politically and in literature. 578 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: He was very against the old ways and the old 579 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: powers and the authorities, and for sort of disruption and 580 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: revolution and doing things in a new way. Now, the 581 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: plot of Shelley's play is kind of abstract and sort 582 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: of loaded with characters and images of ponderous meaningfulness. So, 583 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: uh so I'm gonna try to do a short summary, 584 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: leaving aside all the stuff that takes us in other 585 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: directions and focusing on how the Dimmock organ comes in. 586 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: So Prometheus is we find him in this state where 587 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: he's bound up by Zeus. It's Jupiter in this play, 588 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: but this same figure, the king of the gods, bound 589 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: up and tortured by Jupiter for bringing knowledge to the mortals, 590 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,959 Speaker 1: and in Shelley's version it is explicitly not just fire 591 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,919 Speaker 1: but general knowledge and aid. And there are two other 592 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: deities who are sympathetic to Prometheus and they want to 593 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: help him. These are the sisters Asia and Panthea, and 594 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: they attempt to free Prometheus from his bondage. Asia is 595 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: a c nymph who is actually the beloved of Prometheus, 596 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: and Panthea is her sister. Led by a dream, the 597 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: two of them venture into the underworld, and they meet 598 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 1: a character called the Demogorgan, who is portrayed as a 599 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: kind of supremely powerful but also strangely passive and kind 600 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: of inert force of fate and nothingness, who is also 601 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: the son of Jupiter. Now, when they first come across 602 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 1: uh the demo Organ, the character of Panthea describes him 603 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: this way. She says, I see a mighty darkness filling 604 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: the seat of power, and rays of gloom, dark round 605 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,800 Speaker 1: as light from the meridian sun, ungazed upon and shapeless, 606 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 1: neither limb nor form nor outline. Yet we feel it 607 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 1: is a living spirit. This is very different from the 608 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 1: D and D demigorgan, right, Yeah, This is more like 609 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: a primordial soup of the deity. Yeah. So they say 610 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: that they since there is a living presence down in 611 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: the abyss with them, and there's a mighty darkness, there's 612 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 1: something in the gloom, but they can't see that it 613 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 1: has any kind of shape or body. And then Panthea 614 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,879 Speaker 1: and Asia have a consultation with the Demogorgon. They asked 615 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: him questions and the Demogorgan reveals to them that Jupiter 616 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: created the world with all the good and the bad, 617 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 1: that it entails, and also that even Jupiter himself is 618 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,720 Speaker 1: not all powerful, because, in the words of the Demogorgon quote, 619 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: all spirits are enslaved, which serve things evil. And he 620 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 1: says to Asia, thou knowest if Jupiter be such or No. 621 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: Of course Asia knows that even though Jupiter is the 622 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 1: chief god, Jupiter still does things that are evil. He 623 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 1: serves evil, so there must be some kind of power 624 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: over him, because all things that serve evil have some 625 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 1: power over them. So what is even Jupiter subject to? Well? 626 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 1: The demo organ answer is that too. Quote if the 627 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: abyssum could vomit forth its secrets. But a voice is 628 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 1: wanting the deep truth is imageless. For what would it 629 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 1: avail to bid the gaze on the revolving world? What 630 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 1: to bid? Speak fate, time, occasion, chance, and change? To 631 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:37,439 Speaker 1: these all things are subject but eternal love. Love. That's 632 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: the fifth element. I guess it is. So even Jupiter, 633 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 1: the ultimate god of everything, is subject to the power 634 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 1: of love. Uh. Sounds kind of cheesy, but then but 635 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,319 Speaker 1: then Asia is like, Okay, well, I love Prometheus, so 636 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: when will he be freed? Like when shall the destined 637 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: hour arrive for Prometheus to be to be freed, and 638 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 1: the dem o organ just says, behold exclamation point. So 639 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 1: then immediately the Demogorgan travels to heaven where Jupiter is 640 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,400 Speaker 1: the Jupiter, the chief God, is in the middle of 641 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 1: a big speech about how awesome he is, and the 642 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:14,720 Speaker 1: Demogorgan appears and then he just he just messes up Jupiter. 643 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: He casts him down, He destroys the tyrant creator God, 644 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,319 Speaker 1: and then Prometheus can be freed by Hercules and reunited 645 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: with Asia. That's quite a climax. Well, but it's not 646 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,399 Speaker 1: the climax. Somehow, This is not the end of the play. 647 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: This is like act three of a five act play. 648 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: After this, it seems I've never read the thing in full, 649 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: I admit I've read some passages. It seems like after 650 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: this there is a lot of like sort of um 651 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,799 Speaker 1: windy pontificating about love and virtues and what is good 652 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: and right. But anyway, I think the Demogorgon's role in 653 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: this story is very interesting. He's well, so I kept 654 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: saying he but the Demogorgan. Actually, one thing that's been 655 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: pointed out by scholars is that the Demogorgan has never 656 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: given a gender. Uh In in Percy's play. Uh In 657 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 1: and other sources. It is I think, assumed to be 658 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: a he, but there's no there's no gender in Prometheus Unbound. 659 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,400 Speaker 1: So the Demogorgon, whoever they are, whatever they are, is 660 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 1: depicted as in some kind of infernal phantom of the underworld, 661 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,800 Speaker 1: but also a liberating force for positive good overthrowing the 662 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,839 Speaker 1: tyrannical order of creation at the appointed hour. Uh. Though interestingly, 663 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 1: I would say the demogorgan doesn't really seem to act 664 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 1: out of their own volition. It's almost as if, um, 665 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: they are somehow triggered into this act by the visit 666 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 1: from Asia and Panthea, Like it's the love for Prometheus 667 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,839 Speaker 1: from Asia that was faded to proceed the appointed hour 668 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,880 Speaker 1: of Jupiter's destruction and the liberation of the world. Another 669 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,319 Speaker 1: thing that's interesting here about Shelley's work, So we talked 670 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 1: about how the demogorgan does not actually come from Greek mythology, 671 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,719 Speaker 1: even though he's being retro insurgent into like classical mythology here. 672 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: Greek and Roman kind of blended mythology here. Um, what 673 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,759 Speaker 1: would the word demo gorgon mean if it actually were 674 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,840 Speaker 1: a Greek word. Well, you've got the apparent roots demos 675 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: and Gorgon like the people's gorgon like democracy, and then 676 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 1: then Gorgon again, the monster, the of which Medusa is 677 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,839 Speaker 1: a member of the species. But actually the gorgon name 678 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 1: for Medusa that has a root in Greek too. It's 679 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 1: from the word gorgos, which means something like terrible or grim, 680 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 1: you know, terror inducing. So the demon organ could literally 681 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: be translated as the people's terror, like the terror of 682 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,840 Speaker 1: the masses of people, which is a very interesting intersection 683 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: with the idea of like a long faded revolution to 684 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: dethrone tyrant kings and unworthy gods. And of course we know, 685 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 1: uh Percy Shelley was a supporter of the French Revolution. 686 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 1: He believed in atheism, He believed in republicanism, not to 687 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: be confused with like the Republican Party of today, like 688 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: in the context of the time, that was representative government 689 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:58,320 Speaker 1: as opposed to monarchy. Um. And so I think it 690 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 1: could be tempting to think of like the French Revolution 691 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:06,240 Speaker 1: as Shelley's demogorgon, the people's terror, like this inevitable swell 692 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,799 Speaker 1: of justice that washes tyrants from their thrones, but at 693 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: the same time contains a terrifying and mighty darkness that 694 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: can't really be seen or understood. I like that, the 695 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: people's terror, I mean, yeah, I don't know. I don't 696 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,839 Speaker 1: know if if Shelley himself would have seen that, uh 697 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 1: seen that comparison, because I think he may have had 698 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 1: a more a less nuanced view of the guillotine saying. 699 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 1: And of course this introduces the idea of the democ 700 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 1: organ as as being like potential, like political candidate. Yeah, 701 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 1: perhaps in in our upcoming elections. Yeah, if if you're 702 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 1: if you're inclined to use a right in candidate demogor 703 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,120 Speaker 1: the just rage of the people that is without form 704 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:56,759 Speaker 1: or shape. Now, one more example of demogorgan popping up 705 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: in uh in In in a work of literature, uh 706 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,360 Speaker 1: Is is a story essentially a short story from Voltaire 707 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 1: Voltaire Live, seventeen seventy eight. And I've never read this 708 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,840 Speaker 1: one before. I'd read I'd read some works of Voltaire 709 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: in the past. Um, but at anyway, this one is 710 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,680 Speaker 1: titled Plato's Dream, in which the Demogorgon is presented as 711 00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:24,279 Speaker 1: a genie who witnesses the initial creation um of the 712 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: world by this primordial force called the demi urge, and 713 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 1: along with its fellow genies. Uh. The dem ogregan is 714 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,840 Speaker 1: granted a portion of the creation too, then uh, you know, 715 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:42,000 Speaker 1: to then finish into a functioning world. The demogorgan is 716 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,400 Speaker 1: given the task of creating Earth and uh, and is 717 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,799 Speaker 1: then critiqued and criticized by his fellow genies for making 718 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,319 Speaker 1: such a mixed up planet. And so there's a part 719 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 1: here I want to quote where the Demogorgon responds to 720 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 1: his critics and says, quote, it is an easy matter 721 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: to find fault, good for olks, said the genie. But 722 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: do you imagine it is so easy to form an 723 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 1: animal who, having the gift of reason and free will, 724 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 1: shall not sometimes abuse his liberty? Do you think that, 725 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,800 Speaker 1: in rearing between nine and ten thousand different plants, it 726 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,640 Speaker 1: is so easy to prevent some few from having noxious qualities? 727 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 1: Do you suppose that with a certain quantity of water, sand, 728 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: and mud, you could make a globe that you'd have 729 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 1: neither seas nor deserts. As for you, my sneering friend, 730 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,560 Speaker 1: I think you have just finished the planet Jupiter. Let 731 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: us see now what figure you make with your great 732 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,680 Speaker 1: belts and your long nights, with four moons to enlighten them. 733 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,960 Speaker 1: Let us examine your worlds and see whether the inhabitants 734 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,480 Speaker 1: you have made or exempt from follies or diseases. I 735 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:47,480 Speaker 1: guess we'll just have to wait for the Europa Probe 736 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: to form us on to resolve this one. Right, So, 737 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,759 Speaker 1: there's not much to really I feel like uncover in 738 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 1: this one, but there are there's at least one detail 739 00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,799 Speaker 1: in this that will become critical. Uh. In our next 740 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 1: section of the podcast, after we come back from a break, 741 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 1: we will get into the true abyssal origins of the 742 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:16,200 Speaker 1: demo organ. All right, we're back. So we've charted the 743 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:20,320 Speaker 1: path of the demogorgan through much literature throughout especially the 744 00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,840 Speaker 1: Christian world, and its role in some interesting sort of 745 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,640 Speaker 1: revolutionary sentiments as expressed through literature like Prometheus Unbound or 746 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,520 Speaker 1: in Voltaire story. But we're trying to find the origin 747 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,200 Speaker 1: of this. Where does the Demogorgon actually come from? If 748 00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:39,480 Speaker 1: it doesn't come from classic Greek mythology. Well, the origin 749 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,920 Speaker 1: is discussed in a nineteen sixty four book titled The 750 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 1: Discarded Image and Introduction to Medieval and Renaissance Literature, written 751 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,120 Speaker 1: by none other than C. S. Lewis. In fact, it 752 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 1: was C. S. Lewis's last book before he died, and 753 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,560 Speaker 1: it deals with medieval cosmology. He turns our attention to 754 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,800 Speaker 1: the fourth book of the Debate by Stadius, the first. 755 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:07,400 Speaker 1: Stadius lived uh see forty five through and this is 756 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 1: an epic poem written in Latin about the Theban cycle. 757 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 1: And here the author alludes to a deity that shall 758 00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:18,880 Speaker 1: not be named a quote sovereign of the threefold world. 759 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:23,520 Speaker 1: And then early Christian author Lactantius, who lived to fifty 760 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:28,040 Speaker 1: through wrote a commentary on this work and stated that 761 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:32,480 Speaker 1: Stadius was referring in in fact, to the Greek uh 762 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 1: demi Organ there this or creator quote the god whose 763 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,440 Speaker 1: name it is unlawful to know. So we're talking so 764 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:48,000 Speaker 1: demi Organ, from which we get Demogorgon and uh. And 765 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,000 Speaker 1: then Lewis writes the following to sum this up quote, 766 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,799 Speaker 1: this is plain sailing the demi urge or workmen being 767 00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,200 Speaker 1: the creator in the Timaeus. But there are two variants 768 00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:03,600 Speaker 1: in the manuscripts. One is Morgana, the other Demogorgan. From 769 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:07,759 Speaker 1: the later of these corruptions, later ages evolved a completely 770 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:12,680 Speaker 1: new deity, Demogorgan, who was to enjoy a distinguished literary 771 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 1: career in Boccaccio's geneology of the gods in Spencer, in 772 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,280 Speaker 1: Milton and in Shelley. This is perhaps the only time 773 00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 1: a scribal blunder underwent an apotheosis. Oh that's amazing, uh, 774 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:30,520 Speaker 1: and just so in a mythological context, of course, Apotheosis 775 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,839 Speaker 1: here reversed to the process of a human being being 776 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,640 Speaker 1: deified or something being made into a higher being, like 777 00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:40,480 Speaker 1: a god or a star or heavenly object being taken 778 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:44,120 Speaker 1: up into heaven. Ancient kings were sometimes made into gods, 779 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,719 Speaker 1: and legendary heroes like Hercules, sometimes lived lives that were 780 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,719 Speaker 1: so worthy or so notable they were assumed into the 781 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,120 Speaker 1: pantheon and became god. So I think that's what he's 782 00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:57,160 Speaker 1: saying here, is that somebody made a blunder in copying 783 00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:01,240 Speaker 1: a manuscript or in translating, in understanding what a word 784 00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:06,080 Speaker 1: meant in an older book, and through that scribal error 785 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:10,120 Speaker 1: we got a brand new deity such that, you know, 786 00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,800 Speaker 1: a thousand years later, Boccaccio would say, this deity is 787 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:18,600 Speaker 1: the original Macdaddy deity, like the Number, like the Pagan 788 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 1: God before all the other ones, and it just comes 789 00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:26,120 Speaker 1: from a mistranslation or misreading of a word, right, And 790 00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:30,480 Speaker 1: the word that was misread or a mistranslated is the 791 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:34,640 Speaker 1: dimmi urge, which which curiously enough, is cited in that 792 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,719 Speaker 1: Voltaire short story. Right, So it seems like Voltaire was 793 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,040 Speaker 1: kind of on the right track with the association here. 794 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:42,799 Speaker 1: Uh And and this is great because the demi urge 795 00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,000 Speaker 1: is one of my favorite characters from any mythology in 796 00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:50,640 Speaker 1: the world. But its role is complicated and varies across 797 00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:55,600 Speaker 1: different traditions, including like Platonic schools of philosophy and religion 798 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,600 Speaker 1: in the you know, in the centuries following Plato's actual teachings, 799 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,440 Speaker 1: and in various Gnostic religions. I'll try to give a 800 00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,600 Speaker 1: general summary that applies to multiple lines of tradition that 801 00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:09,120 Speaker 1: have sort of similar attributes, but just be aware that 802 00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:10,840 Speaker 1: there are a lot of different things that are all 803 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:14,120 Speaker 1: sort of versions of the demi urge. The word demi urge, 804 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,680 Speaker 1: as uh As Lewis mentioned, comes from the Greek. In 805 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,520 Speaker 1: its original form, is just a common noun that means 806 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:26,280 Speaker 1: something like craftsmen. You know, it's somebody who makes things, sculptor, maker, producer. 807 00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,840 Speaker 1: But within these religious points of view or in in 808 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:34,000 Speaker 1: these philosophies and cosmologies, the demi Urge is a figure 809 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:38,960 Speaker 1: that creates the material world, is the creator, but apart 810 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,480 Speaker 1: from many other religions, this does not mean that he 811 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,879 Speaker 1: is the ultimate creator God or that he is good. 812 00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,680 Speaker 1: He is, I would say, variously portrayed as is everything, 813 00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:54,400 Speaker 1: ranging from kind of neutral and bumbling to actively malevolent. 814 00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,440 Speaker 1: And to give an example from one strain of Gnosticism 815 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:01,040 Speaker 1: in the Gnostic text known as the Apoco Craffon of John, 816 00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,920 Speaker 1: the dimmi Urge figure is this foolish, arrogant, wicked deity 817 00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 1: called yelled to both who creates the material bodies of humans. 818 00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:13,520 Speaker 1: I think he also maybe creates the material world or 819 00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,000 Speaker 1: some aspects of it um and humans. The humans that 820 00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:21,160 Speaker 1: he created end up with souls when they are inadvertently 821 00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,720 Speaker 1: contaminated by a spark or a light from the higher 822 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:27,800 Speaker 1: nobler plane of being known as the play a roma, 823 00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,759 Speaker 1: which means something like fullness. And so you've got the 824 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,960 Speaker 1: ple roma, the fullness the real world, the real greater place, 825 00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:38,400 Speaker 1: which is is immaterial in nature, and then you've got 826 00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:42,680 Speaker 1: the the crappy material world that yelled to both made 827 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,440 Speaker 1: and now we're stuck in that thing. And yelda bo 828 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:49,040 Speaker 1: Oath resents the fact that humans have this spark from 829 00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:51,640 Speaker 1: the ple roma and tries to fight against it. So 830 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 1: to do so, he tries to keep humans confused and 831 00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,480 Speaker 1: in the dark, so we're always fumbling around in this 832 00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:01,720 Speaker 1: kind of baffling material hell which is our everyday world. 833 00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,279 Speaker 1: And the Gnostics within this tradition believe that you can 834 00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,600 Speaker 1: only escape the horrors of the material world by becoming 835 00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:12,239 Speaker 1: privy to secret knowledge. That knowledge is the gns is 836 00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:15,960 Speaker 1: the secret knowledge that explains the real world. And this 837 00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,279 Speaker 1: is this is how you transcend the secret mythology, the 838 00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:23,280 Speaker 1: secret rituals that give you access to the true, fuller 839 00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:28,200 Speaker 1: reality behind this material illusion that controls our lives. And 840 00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,200 Speaker 1: you can actually see a connection to Platonic philosophy. Even 841 00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,680 Speaker 1: if this sounds like a very kind of strange, complicated 842 00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,800 Speaker 1: theological take on on the creation of the world, it 843 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,480 Speaker 1: sounds a lot like Plato's cave, right, Yeah, yeah, it does. 844 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:42,680 Speaker 1: I mean, and also the basic spirit of this is 845 00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,360 Speaker 1: also reflected in other faiths. I mean, the idea of 846 00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:47,759 Speaker 1: there being a secret reality of their of there being 847 00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,000 Speaker 1: some sort of cycle that we need to break free from. 848 00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,360 Speaker 1: I mean, you see that in say Hindu and Buddhist traditions, 849 00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:58,360 Speaker 1: and this idea of the spark of something more divine 850 00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,440 Speaker 1: being like trapped in the mud of our bodies. How 851 00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,360 Speaker 1: do you see that also reflected in even more recent 852 00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:08,239 Speaker 1: creations like scientology. Oh totally, I think, yeah, absolutely. I 853 00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:12,759 Speaker 1: would say gnostic theology reflects something that is a very 854 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,800 Speaker 1: common belief among humans, and you can see how often 855 00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,359 Speaker 1: it appears, not just in other religions, but in all 856 00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:20,880 Speaker 1: kinds of pop culture. I mean, echoes of the gnostic 857 00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,840 Speaker 1: worldview bounce around constantly even through contemporary culture, whether we 858 00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,480 Speaker 1: are conscious of it or not, and whether the creators 859 00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:29,560 Speaker 1: of these pieces of culture or conscious of it or not. 860 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,760 Speaker 1: If I mean, if you've seen the matrix, you already 861 00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,640 Speaker 1: have a sort of baseline understanding of gnostic cosmology. You 862 00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:40,000 Speaker 1: just replace the evil computers and the agents with like 863 00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,600 Speaker 1: cosmic realms and wicked ar cons like the demi Urge. 864 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,440 Speaker 1: The demi Urge sort of created a material matrix for 865 00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:50,440 Speaker 1: us to live in, when in reality we are beings 866 00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,520 Speaker 1: from this better, immaterial world and we have to find 867 00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:56,000 Speaker 1: ways to escape and get back to it. So you're 868 00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,640 Speaker 1: saying we are star dust, we are golden, we are 869 00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:01,399 Speaker 1: billion year old card, and we have to find our 870 00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:03,520 Speaker 1: way back to the garden. Yes, but you can only 871 00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,040 Speaker 1: get back to the garden if you teach your children well, 872 00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,320 Speaker 1: because it is the secret knowledge that is required to 873 00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,000 Speaker 1: get you there. And most people are never going to 874 00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:13,960 Speaker 1: be let in on the secret. They're just sort of 875 00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:17,560 Speaker 1: going about their you know, their everyday life, toiling after 876 00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:21,479 Speaker 1: material things without understanding that the material world is bad 877 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,480 Speaker 1: and fake. But I love this idea that the demi 878 00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:28,799 Speaker 1: Urge being this creator of the material world who's at 879 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,880 Speaker 1: the at the very least bumbling and at worst some 880 00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:34,839 Speaker 1: kind of devilish thing that that hates us and wants 881 00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:38,479 Speaker 1: to trick us into living bad, wrong lives. I could 882 00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:42,000 Speaker 1: see this mistranslation leading to the creation of the demi 883 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,840 Speaker 1: Organ figure being an excellent modern reworking of the Gnostic 884 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,399 Speaker 1: theology and being a part of that demi Urge's plan, 885 00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,560 Speaker 1: Like the demmy Urge hides the true nosis about its 886 00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:55,560 Speaker 1: wicked role in creating the material world and these filthy 887 00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:59,520 Speaker 1: bodies of ours by causing a scribal error that hides 888 00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:02,560 Speaker 1: its six distance, and instead it gets everybody focused on 889 00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:06,680 Speaker 1: this fake, illusory demon or primordial god, the democ Organ 890 00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:09,200 Speaker 1: and then you're scared of the democ organ or you're 891 00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:12,239 Speaker 1: in all of its primeval darkness and shapeless presence, so 892 00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:14,560 Speaker 1: you forget that you need to be seeking the noses 893 00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:18,799 Speaker 1: to escape this wretched unreality. Uh and uh yeah, yeah, 894 00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:21,960 Speaker 1: I mean if you're ultimately if you're trying to envision 895 00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:25,239 Speaker 1: the ultimate evil power in a in a in a 896 00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:28,400 Speaker 1: fantasy world. Uh yeah, this this sounds like the This 897 00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,320 Speaker 1: is the Prince of Demons right here. You know. I 898 00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,359 Speaker 1: weirdly kept thinking about the demi irriage when we were 899 00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,879 Speaker 1: recently talking about that book I read by Philip Ball 900 00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:42,399 Speaker 1: about quantum mechanics that it is called Beyond Weird. It's 901 00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,239 Speaker 1: great book. It's a new book from this year last 902 00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,160 Speaker 1: year about quantum mechanics. And one of the things that 903 00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:49,840 Speaker 1: I think is really great about the book is it 904 00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,000 Speaker 1: doesn't let you off the hook. It doesn't just let 905 00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:54,600 Speaker 1: you say wow, quantum mechanics sure does seem weird and 906 00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:56,680 Speaker 1: then kind of shake your head and move on. Like it. 907 00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,080 Speaker 1: It tries to force you to look at it. It 908 00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,880 Speaker 1: does the thing from like Clockwork Orange where it helds 909 00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,960 Speaker 1: your eyelids open and says, no, look at this and 910 00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:08,640 Speaker 1: pay attention. And you know, one of the things that 911 00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,840 Speaker 1: you walk away from that with is that, Okay, you know, 912 00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:15,840 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that physical reality isn't real, but it 913 00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:20,200 Speaker 1: it makes you think that whatever way we're interacting with 914 00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:22,279 Speaker 1: the world on a day to day basis, you know, 915 00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,440 Speaker 1: the kind of reality we perceive with like objects you 916 00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:28,920 Speaker 1: can touch and and see and know their place and 917 00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:32,239 Speaker 1: all that, that is not the ultimate like arbiter of 918 00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:36,200 Speaker 1: what reality is. Like, your perception of reality is not 919 00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:40,320 Speaker 1: necessarily the most accurate way of understanding reality, even though it, 920 00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:42,160 Speaker 1: you know, it seems to work good enough to get 921 00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,480 Speaker 1: you through life, so how could it be wrong? But 922 00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,480 Speaker 1: yet we you know, we do experiments in physics all 923 00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:50,960 Speaker 1: the time. Now that that just show you over and 924 00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,640 Speaker 1: over again that the way you have of making sense 925 00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:56,959 Speaker 1: of the world is some kind of derivative, second order 926 00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:01,000 Speaker 1: kind of grasp of physics. So you have no intuitive 927 00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:04,440 Speaker 1: way of understanding quantum reality. You know, what happens before 928 00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:08,319 Speaker 1: decoherence and everything, So that ultimately there is this there 929 00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:12,080 Speaker 1: is this deeper truth in the universe that that we 930 00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:15,480 Speaker 1: are not inherently privy to. We're only privy to it 931 00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:21,560 Speaker 1: via UH technology, via science, UH these are essentially gnostic 932 00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:25,200 Speaker 1: tools of elevation. That that's how you get the noses 933 00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:29,400 Speaker 1: as you do a double slit experiment. Well, I've enjoyed this, uh, 934 00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:32,400 Speaker 1: this journey that we've taken, you know, because it feels, 935 00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:37,000 Speaker 1: i mean, part of it seems like the natural destination 936 00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:38,839 Speaker 1: for an exploration of the democ organ, that it would 937 00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:43,840 Speaker 1: tie back to this primordial being that's wrapped in gnostic mystery. 938 00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:45,839 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, I love that it also 939 00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:50,480 Speaker 1: hinges incredibly upon just a scribal blunder. You know that 940 00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,560 Speaker 1: it's a it's it's this thing that was actually you know, 941 00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:56,680 Speaker 1: it's never really real in the way that we uh 942 00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:59,880 Speaker 1: we might you know, attribute it as having been. It 943 00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:04,640 Speaker 1: was never actually uh an entity that was worshiped or 944 00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:08,160 Speaker 1: even factored into any actual myth cycle. No, it is 945 00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:10,680 Speaker 1: wholly without shape and out of the darkness. It is 946 00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:13,960 Speaker 1: the figure that Asia and Panthea go to visit, and 947 00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:16,399 Speaker 1: you know, it just waits there until it's hour comes 948 00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,799 Speaker 1: round at last. Yeah. Yeah, And I also love how 949 00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:21,600 Speaker 1: we got to let's see if we got to to 950 00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:25,680 Speaker 1: turn to Joni Mitchell, Crosby Stills and Nash uh c 951 00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:29,680 Speaker 1: s Lewis Um Milton and of course Gary Gygax to 952 00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:33,520 Speaker 1: understand it all a wonderful motley crew for those wooden 953 00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,239 Speaker 1: ships on the water. All right, well, we're gonna close 954 00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,080 Speaker 1: it out right there, But obviously I imagined a number 955 00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:42,960 Speaker 1: of you have thoughts about the demogorgan, either the Netflix 956 00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:46,000 Speaker 1: version or the Dungeons and Dragons incarnation, or perhaps some 957 00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:50,480 Speaker 1: of the literary uh incarnations that we've discussed here as well, 958 00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:52,320 Speaker 1: and of course we would love to hear from you. 959 00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:56,480 Speaker 1: But stay tuned because again, this entire month of October 960 00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:00,759 Speaker 1: is going to be Halloween themed as it has been 961 00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:04,960 Speaker 1: in the past. Uh, We're gonna have all new monstrosities 962 00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,520 Speaker 1: to consider. Uh tying in as much science as we 963 00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:11,000 Speaker 1: possibly can. Have we ever done an episode on the 964 00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:15,239 Speaker 1: science of Medusa snakes for hair? Is there's something there? Something? Oh? 965 00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:18,200 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I've I've covered at least 966 00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:20,200 Speaker 1: blogged about Medusa back in the day, and I think 967 00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:23,560 Speaker 1: I did maybe a monster science video about Medusa. But 968 00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:26,680 Speaker 1: that would be an interesting one to to to explore again, 969 00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:30,400 Speaker 1: because the Medusa is a is a fascinating monster. And 970 00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,080 Speaker 1: then some of the things we've done with the Medusa 971 00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:37,000 Speaker 1: are kind of monstrous. Uh yeah, I could. I would 972 00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:40,560 Speaker 1: be up for a Medusa exploration. Bring it all right. 973 00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:42,480 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you want to support the show, 974 00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:44,360 Speaker 1: the best thing you can do is make sure you 975 00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:46,719 Speaker 1: have subscribed and then rate and review us wherever you 976 00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:48,960 Speaker 1: have the power to do so. And don't forget about invention. 977 00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:53,480 Speaker 1: Monsters are great, but the real monster is always human 978 00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:56,719 Speaker 1: endeavor and human invention, and that's what we explore. The 979 00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:01,040 Speaker 1: invention is a journey through human techno. His really, it's 980 00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:04,120 Speaker 1: a it's a celebration or at least a contemplation in 981 00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:07,719 Speaker 1: some in many cases, of the fire of Prometheus. Yeah. 982 00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:10,960 Speaker 1: The things we made, how they made us, where they 983 00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:14,239 Speaker 1: came from. Yeah, So make sure you have checked that 984 00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:17,080 Speaker 1: show out as well, and make sure you subscribe, rate 985 00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:20,280 Speaker 1: and review helps us out huge, thanks as always to 986 00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:24,360 Speaker 1: our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you have 987 00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:27,040 Speaker 1: any feedback on this episode and we'd like to share 988 00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:29,000 Speaker 1: it with us, If you'd like to get in touch 989 00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:31,840 Speaker 1: just to say hi or suggest a topic for the future, 990 00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:35,280 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 991 00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:45,840 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 992 00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,160 Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radios. How to works for more 993 00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:50,600 Speaker 1: podcasts from my Heart Radio is at the iHeart Radio app, 994 00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:53,360 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 995 00:57:54,560 --> 00:58:09,360 Speaker 1: Bl bl Blula joined join the joint part Part far