Speaker 1: This is Me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening Don't Make
Speaker 1: You Eat podcast. You Can't Predict Anything. What You're about
Speaker 1: to hear is a conversation about hunters and hunting recorded
Speaker 1: at Starbucks World Headquarters in Seattle, Washington. Me your host,
Speaker 1: Stephen Ronella, along with Land Tawny and Janice who tell
Speaker 1: us take questions from Starbucks employees who chose to attend
Speaker 1: the mid day gathering. Okay, thanks everyone for coming in today.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. I appreciate you join us for this
Speaker 1: lunch and learned in this podcast kind cool technology that
Speaker 1: we're all I'm sure addicted to at this point. UM,
Speaker 1: I'm bailed for myself, myself and Partners for Sustainability. UM. Again,
Speaker 1: thank you for coming. I'd like to take just a
Speaker 1: quick second to introduce our guests that we have today.
Speaker 1: Right here to my right is Land Tawny as the
Speaker 1: President CEBO CEO of back Country Hunters and Anglers, which
Speaker 1: is a national conservation group. B h A is a
Speaker 1: nonprofit organization that was born around the campfire in Oregon
Speaker 1: in two thousand four and now has chapters in twenty states,
Speaker 1: also Canada, and the group claims close to ten thousand members.
Speaker 1: H works to prevent the development of wild lands of
Speaker 1: North America and to ensure that we all have access
Speaker 1: to those lands. B H sent up over on the
Speaker 1: side police feel free after the take a look some
Speaker 1: cool stuff, some shirts. Uh sign up. We're also if
Speaker 1: anybody the side of today there's a giveaway um from
Speaker 1: sign ups for first light years, so entire entire base
Speaker 1: layer it's Marino will. All these guys use it a lot.
Speaker 1: It's a really high quality, great stuff. Next we have
Speaker 1: honestly tell us he's also made a career in the
Speaker 1: outdoors and shares a passion for wildlife and wildlife management.
Speaker 1: Jana spent over twelve years guiding sportsmen and women on
Speaker 1: adventures out in the wild, and now he's the part
Speaker 1: of the Meat Eater crew and executive producer of their
Speaker 1: TV show. And our guest of honor is Stephen Ronella.
Speaker 1: Stephen is an accomplished writer, an avid outdoorsman, a skilled chef,
Speaker 1: and a dedicated conservationist. He's also the television show Meat
Speaker 1: Eator It's on the Sportsmen's Channel, and his book titles
Speaker 1: include the Scavengers, Guide to Oak Quisine, American Buffalo in
Speaker 1: Search of a Lost Icon, and Meat Eater Adventures from
Speaker 1: the Life of American Hunter. American Buffalo won a number
Speaker 1: of awards, including the Circuit de Olson Nature Writing Award
Speaker 1: and the Pacific Northwest Booksellers Award. One quote from Anthony
Speaker 1: Moore nine Around the Mediator book he had to say
Speaker 1: about Meteator, Chances are Stephen Ronella's life is very different
Speaker 1: than yours or mine. He does not source his food
Speaker 1: at the local supermarket. Um Meat Eater is a unique
Speaker 1: and valuable alternative view of where our food comes from
Speaker 1: and what can be involved. It looks both backwards at
Speaker 1: the way things used to be and forward to a
Speaker 1: time when every diner truly understands what's on the end
Speaker 1: of the sport. One of our core values here at
Speaker 1: Starbucks is acting with courage, challenging the status quo, can
Speaker 1: finding new ways to grow our company and each other.
Speaker 1: I think we would all agree that fighting for a
Speaker 1: sustainable model to wildlife and wild lands is something we value.
Speaker 1: So today, let's act with courage and have an open
Speaker 1: and honest discussion around what we can do and what
Speaker 1: we can be around this polarizing topic. I can't think
Speaker 1: of three better people suited to lead us in this discussion.
Speaker 1: Gentlemen'll turn it over to you first, all, thank you
Speaker 1: for coming down. It was some months ago that Chad
Speaker 1: invited us to come out. He had listened to a
Speaker 1: um A podcast that we did with we recorded at
Speaker 1: a Bad Huntry, Hunters and Anglers convention. So we all
Speaker 1: in Missoula, Montana, and there it was. You know, it
Speaker 1: was a crowd of very dedicated outdoorsman and Chad thought
Speaker 1: it might be cool to come and do something similar here,
Speaker 1: of primary difference being we have a way better a
Speaker 1: V set up now. So what I would like to
Speaker 1: do is just because we have limited time, he says,
Speaker 1: you guys all have meetings you're gonna go through in
Speaker 1: an hour. Um, would I'd like to do to jump
Speaker 1: into questions you can have or it could really be
Speaker 1: about anything. It could be technical things that have to
Speaker 1: do with hunting, is fine, or it could be like
Speaker 1: more bigger picture things about how hunting fits into our
Speaker 1: contemporary understanding of wildlife management or you know, ethical food
Speaker 1: or anything. It really doesn't matter, so really anything, if
Speaker 1: I can interrupt you, we all often play the game.
Speaker 1: We're out in the field making media or television. We
Speaker 1: play a game called stump Steve. It's hard. So really
Speaker 1: you know any of you drinking? Yeah? I was telling
Speaker 1: Chandler the way that via change backpack great problems. I
Speaker 1: wasn't even paid to say that. Questions how are we
Speaker 1: gonna do? Quit? You're gonna run that thing over to
Speaker 1: people who have a question? Yeah? Absolutely, Just to throw
Speaker 1: your hand up and I'll bring the mike to you.
Speaker 1: We can talk about it. Well. People are thinking we
Speaker 1: got one. Um, how how do you guys recommend or
Speaker 1: kind of see Sydney folks getting involved? Um, you know,
Speaker 1: the grocery store is convenient. I have to drive out
Speaker 1: to the woods every weekend, have a couple of little kids.
Speaker 1: I don't get a whole lot of time outside. Um
Speaker 1: you know what, what what would be some best practices
Speaker 1: in terms of sour some food from the wild, but
Speaker 1: also living a Sydney life. Are you guys familiar with
Speaker 1: the biggest uh Barri's wheel downtown? Kay? Right? Now you
Speaker 1: go down there at Ducks, you will see a line
Speaker 1: of people predominantly UH Cambodians, Vietnamese and Filipino individuals and
Speaker 1: me and my kids um jigging for squid. So in
Speaker 1: the starting around Thanksgiving running up into January, the squid
Speaker 1: or spawning. They tend to spawn about fifteen to thirty
Speaker 1: ft of water and we hammered. We eat so much
Speaker 1: calamari in the last couple of months, my wife's declared
Speaker 1: a calamari moratorian um. One of my first my first
Speaker 1: book that I wrote. A big part of the book
Speaker 1: was about a lot of the book was around street pigeons,
Speaker 1: which are you know, a non native often regarded as
Speaker 1: a delaterious exotic wildlife. Um, I mean a pile of
Speaker 1: street pigeons. I think in a more way, in a
Speaker 1: more conventional way. I think that, Um, there's just a
Speaker 1: lot of think there's a lot of food resources that
Speaker 1: don't get a ton of attention. So if you look
Speaker 1: at hunting media, everything seems to be focused around like deer, turkeys.
Speaker 1: You know, these are things that are in somewhat high demand.
Speaker 1: There's sort of an industry built around them. They're kind of,
Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, they're very fashionable things
Speaker 1: to go after. But there are many many other items
Speaker 1: that are just like I don't want to say underutilized
Speaker 1: and that something bad would happen. That's something there's a
Speaker 1: negative to not being utilized. But there's a lot of
Speaker 1: them fishing and hunting resources out there just aren't that
Speaker 1: aren't exploited really at all. Um, we're oftentimes advocating hunting
Speaker 1: small game, right, So we spent a lot of time
Speaker 1: hunting squirrels and ramps and things that people just don't do.
Speaker 1: That's the kind of stuff I do with my kids.
Speaker 1: So my kids are two, four and six, and we
Speaker 1: do a lot of things like we fished yellow perch
Speaker 1: out of Lake Washington a lot. I caught them off
Speaker 1: at about sixty perch, So I don't like cleaning that
Speaker 1: man that takes us about forty five minutes. We jiggle
Speaker 1: out of squid because we can go down to jig,
Speaker 1: I can pick my kid off from school. We can
Speaker 1: be jigging squid and then come home in time to
Speaker 1: even six third. I'll take them out hunting small game
Speaker 1: because it's like it's they can see it happen, it
Speaker 1: happens quickly. It fits within they're sort of time frame,
Speaker 1: you know. Um, I've never for want stuff to do.
Speaker 1: I think the challenges is finding out about this stuff,
Speaker 1: and the best way to find out about the stuff
Speaker 1: is it surround yourself with people who are doing it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think that's what I was gonna say,
Speaker 1: is that, I mean, finding people, it's probably the best connection.
Speaker 1: I also have young kids, um and you know, fortunate
Speaker 1: to row up in Montana where this stuff is maybe
Speaker 1: a little more accessible than it is here. But we
Speaker 1: have a chapter that's you know, growing by the day
Speaker 1: that's here in Seattle, and and and they actually having
Speaker 1: a pintman on Thursday night. But those are the folks
Speaker 1: that can get you. It's public land that surrounds us
Speaker 1: out here in its public water. Are places where you
Speaker 1: can't do that. I mean, Steve's described a little bit
Speaker 1: of that. So I think it's what you don't know,
Speaker 1: you don't know, and so getting next to people that
Speaker 1: can't connect to that would be my biggest I think
Speaker 1: opportunity for you get out and with the kids. Uh,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think including they can do them more
Speaker 1: than you they then you think they can. I mean,
Speaker 1: just get them out there and get them engaged and
Speaker 1: make make it fun. And then the more they get
Speaker 1: out there, they're gonna beg for it and that's gonna
Speaker 1: help you get out there a little bit more, for
Speaker 1: a little bit of suffering in there too, you know,
Speaker 1: or can't all be easy? That's character, right, builds character.
Speaker 1: It's a build song cold tolerance. You have edition down.
Speaker 1: Um yeah, but I think you gotta answered that thoroughly.
Speaker 1: Maybe huckleberries, right, huckleberries or something that can really get
Speaker 1: you out there too, right and like and those kids are'
Speaker 1: probably gonna bring any huckleberries home because it's gonnat them
Speaker 1: the entire time. But it's something easy you can do
Speaker 1: and if you find a patch, and it's something they
Speaker 1: will never forget. So I'm a huge fan of your show.
Speaker 1: I watched the last couple of season on Netflix. So
Speaker 1: I've been on maternity leave and your conversations about kids
Speaker 1: has really got me thinking a little bit about, um,
Speaker 1: the role that I play as parents when it comes
Speaker 1: to hunting and being in the outdoors. I grew up
Speaker 1: in a hunting family. My husband my hunt, and there's
Speaker 1: going to be a time where his friends come over
Speaker 1: and do I do I talk to them about hunting?
Speaker 1: Do I talk to them about gun ownership? I've always
Speaker 1: grown up in a really responsible household where gun ownership
Speaker 1: was the norm, but it was also very safe, and
Speaker 1: I learned from a very early age how to handle
Speaker 1: firearms and how to keep them away from other children
Speaker 1: or how to handle them in a, you know, a
Speaker 1: very safe manner. So I guess my question is what
Speaker 1: have you done with your children to instill those kind
Speaker 1: of same values, and you know, when is that time?
Speaker 1: When is that appropriate time to start teaching them about
Speaker 1: safety and especially in this kind of polarized Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a great question. I have made it now two trips
Speaker 1: down to schools to explain to teachers that when my
Speaker 1: son mentions a shotgun or mentions a rifle where he's
Speaker 1: coming from. He'll mention like I have a blank, okay,
Speaker 1: or my dad has a blank that's gonna be mine.
Speaker 1: They fly off the handle. Understandably. I go down and said,
Speaker 1: you have to understand this kid's context with what he's
Speaker 1: talking about, because every piece of protein that he eats
Speaker 1: came from our hunting and fishing activities. That's all he's
Speaker 1: ever known. He goes to school with like a muskok sandwich, okay,
Speaker 1: So when he talks about he's coming at this from
Speaker 1: a completely different angle than you think he's coming from.
Speaker 1: He's coming from a practical matter where he's talking about
Speaker 1: the same way you might talk about a kitchen knife
Speaker 1: or a blader. It's always in our household of conversation.
Speaker 1: I found that when I've had this conversation with people,
Speaker 1: they've been comforted, very cool about it. It's never led
Speaker 1: to more problems. But twice had that like awkward moment
Speaker 1: where he's been made to feel like he's doing something
Speaker 1: wrong by talking about a big part of his life. Okay,
Speaker 1: so I've been careful to clear that up. My wife
Speaker 1: is more. She didn't grow up in a in a
Speaker 1: household with firearms. She didn't grow up around hunting. She
Speaker 1: tends the more when people come over with kids, she
Speaker 1: just impoll like, you know, just right off the bat
Speaker 1: will bring them down and be like, this is a
Speaker 1: keypad locked place where we keep firearms, and inside there
Speaker 1: you will would find firearms that also have trigger locks
Speaker 1: on them, so we have a redundant safety system. I'm like,
Speaker 1: why do you, like, why do you bring it up
Speaker 1: and there when you asked about it? Because because she said,
Speaker 1: I know they're thinking about it because we're like the
Speaker 1: crazy people with the guns. So she just clears it
Speaker 1: right up, and I think it's probably good. I used
Speaker 1: to be uncomfortable with it because it was all I
Speaker 1: felt like, what are you like admitting, you know, she
Speaker 1: doesn't know people wonder about this stuff. You can to
Speaker 1: consider where you live, you know, And so yeah, that's
Speaker 1: that's something. And I think that I think that my
Speaker 1: kids to eat struggles all the time with hearing stuff
Speaker 1: at school where he's talking about, oh, we ate this
Speaker 1: or we did that this weekend, and here your kids,
Speaker 1: Well that's me, you know, And I've already armed about
Speaker 1: the most basic arguments to try on them, like do
Speaker 1: you eat meat? And if you do, if you eat
Speaker 1: a chicken mc nugget, how that's produced in a sort
Speaker 1: of slurry that contains probably four or fifty chickens in it,
Speaker 1: you have contributed to a little bit of death yourself.
Speaker 1: Ours is more focused and targeted, and he's already kind
Speaker 1: of like mastering some of these arguments because I know
Speaker 1: that he's putting up with it. Lands kids in Montana
Speaker 1: are not having these conversations, but mine in Seattle are,
Speaker 1: I mean they are a little bit. I mean I think, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I grew up with kids that didn't hunt.
Speaker 1: So like their culture is, you know, changing a little bit,
Speaker 1: and those getting bigger and people are moving in that
Speaker 1: haven't been there before. I think I would I would
Speaker 1: share some of the things that Steve talked about is
Speaker 1: educating them about why we hunt. I mean, my daughter
Speaker 1: has been in the back of the truck since she
Speaker 1: was too cleaning birds out, we've been fishing, She's been
Speaker 1: on my backs and she was two years old, and
Speaker 1: so I think she's been ingrained in it just like
Speaker 1: years have. We don't. I work a little bit more
Speaker 1: than you're doing. So totally sourced all my food from
Speaker 1: out the outdoors. But but you're working too, don't mean that. Um,
Speaker 1: but I think the gun thing is a different thing too,
Speaker 1: And I think like they've known and I knew when
Speaker 1: I was a little kid and we didn't have safe
Speaker 1: guns were around all the time. Just this healthy respect
Speaker 1: for them. Now we have a safe now at our house. Um,
Speaker 1: but I think like we're the night before we go hunting,
Speaker 1: like I'll get those guns out now the the shells
Speaker 1: and stuff won't be around. But they have a healthy
Speaker 1: respect for him and so that they know that that's
Speaker 1: not something that they touched. Now we've gone out and
Speaker 1: shot like I think be beguns and uh um, and
Speaker 1: I think teaching them guns safety around be beguns. So
Speaker 1: there's still some danger there, but really the danger is
Speaker 1: not as high. And so barrel safety and like when
Speaker 1: do you put your finger on the trigger and where
Speaker 1: are you pointing that you know the end of your barrel?
Speaker 1: I think are good things to teach him with those
Speaker 1: kind of early, um, non lethal weapons. And and then
Speaker 1: you know, um, we have kids running out of our
Speaker 1: house from the neighborhood all the time and so when
Speaker 1: it's not the night before hind like those guns are
Speaker 1: away and that's what we do. Yeah, we never when
Speaker 1: I was kid, we didn't have a gun. We didn't
Speaker 1: keep our firearms and a gun safe either, but it
Speaker 1: would just been it would have been like your ask
Speaker 1: if you touch someone totally. And I think the parents
Speaker 1: are different now. They don't inspire the level of fear
Speaker 1: their parents used to inspire. So we may gout for
Speaker 1: fear by using trigger locks. Um. But you know, we
Speaker 1: drove around when I was can We drove around on
Speaker 1: our bikes with twenty two is sling over our shoulders.
Speaker 1: There's like kids that I now know weren't allowed to
Speaker 1: hang out with us because we were like armed ten
Speaker 1: year olds. It's just like, it's just a different world
Speaker 1: out man, you know, it's way a different world. And
Speaker 1: I try to be sympathetic too if I don't like
Speaker 1: the cave into it either, Um, you know, I try
Speaker 1: to do think it's right. I alarmed a little bit
Speaker 1: how many parents our kids have nerve guns? Right? How
Speaker 1: many parents feel that their kids are one NERF gun
Speaker 1: exposure away from becoming a murderer. And I'm like, I
Speaker 1: like to think that the foundations are a little bit
Speaker 1: stronger there. Or a kid can sort out that they're
Speaker 1: smart enough to sort out the difference between a NERF
Speaker 1: gun and something that actually causes harm. And then there's
Speaker 1: a difference between shooting their dad with a NERF gun
Speaker 1: dart and shooting at someone with something that would name
Speaker 1: or kill them. They do a great job drawing those distinctions.
Speaker 1: I think that you've got to give kids some credit
Speaker 1: to understand nuance and these are all things that come
Speaker 1: out of hunting lifestyle, you know. I think it's like
Speaker 1: it really enhances It just gives you an ability to
Speaker 1: discuss things that might otherwise be hard to bring up.
Speaker 1: We've already covered eggs and sperm and stuff a thousand times,
Speaker 1: cleaning fish. They're dialed on that later when we kind
Speaker 1: of expanded it outward and talking about all the things
Speaker 1: they might need to know about. We'll have a good
Speaker 1: foundation and some visuals. I think that early and often too,
Speaker 1: like as soon as you get those kids out there,
Speaker 1: this is gonna be a way they think is like,
Speaker 1: it's gonna be normal to them. I have a quick
Speaker 1: question here, kind of expanding on what you guys are
Speaker 1: talking about. I'm a new dad, Um got a five
Speaker 1: month old. My wife was raised in a hunting family
Speaker 1: on New you know, third year hunter. Um getting into
Speaker 1: it with her father in law a bit. But you know,
Speaker 1: our future, we're thinking of moving out east. You know,
Speaker 1: maybe not in the near future, but um, you know,
Speaker 1: in the future. And you know we used to be
Speaker 1: Eastern Washington. Yeah, Eastern Washington. She's got family out there
Speaker 1: and love that area. But you know, we're thinking as
Speaker 1: we talk about, you know, raising a kid around guns
Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. You know, do you do
Speaker 1: you have that assumption you know about families that kids
Speaker 1: play with also have that healthy respect for guns, or
Speaker 1: you know, are you talking with those parents you know
Speaker 1: and and understanding where they come? You know, you know,
Speaker 1: you hear the horror stories of kids playing around other
Speaker 1: kids that really don't have that respect as a household,
Speaker 1: and you know, do you do you have a you know,
Speaker 1: uh kind of a thought on how you approach that
Speaker 1: or Yeah, I would say that in that case, our
Speaker 1: stuff is completely awful limited to anybody else. Yeah, I mean, like,
Speaker 1: are like, you know, our kids friends, they I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't expose them anything that that they might not
Speaker 1: be exposed to at home. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I would never take one of my kids bodies and
Speaker 1: be like, oh hey, check it out, here's a twenty
Speaker 1: two words. You know, what about your kids going over
Speaker 1: to you know, other friends, you know, do you trust
Speaker 1: your kid enough? Or you having that conversation with those
Speaker 1: parents you know, I guess they're not old enough. The
Speaker 1: words even come up, you you know our oldest six
Speaker 1: or that. That's a good question. Um, I haven't been
Speaker 1: encountered with that yet. I haven't encountered that yet. I
Speaker 1: have seen at times, I've seen at at acquaintances homes.
Speaker 1: I've seen ways in which they handle firearms and store firearms,
Speaker 1: and and talk to kids about firearms ways in which
Speaker 1: I think are that I would if my kids are older,
Speaker 1: I would not want them over at that house for sure.
Speaker 1: That they don't. They don't have the standards that I have.
Speaker 1: You know, I think in the I don't want to
Speaker 1: spend the whole time talking about guns, but I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's a rich subject. I'm a little bit surprised
Speaker 1: oftentimes in the way in which safe handling and say
Speaker 1: storage and making a kid friendly environment in a gun
Speaker 1: owning family. I'm surprising which the way the industry has
Speaker 1: avoided that subject. I think it's I think I think
Speaker 1: it should be something that that is stressed much more
Speaker 1: um but people don't. People kind of avoid it, and
Speaker 1: on the industry sense a little bit, I think because
Speaker 1: they don' want to make it. They don't want to
Speaker 1: there's a reluctant maybe to acknowledge how serious the issue is,
Speaker 1: lest it become that these things are not good things
Speaker 1: to have in the home. I don't know why it is,
Speaker 1: but I'm pretty comfortable talking about it. Yeah. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: I was gonna say that it comes down to the foundation.
Speaker 1: So I think that any of our kids, once they
Speaker 1: are old enough to go over someone else's house where
Speaker 1: they find themselves in that situation, they'll know what to
Speaker 1: do in that situation. Don't make the right choice. But yeah,
Speaker 1: where I grew up, many bark in people's houses. They
Speaker 1: got a gun leaning on the door frame and a
Speaker 1: bunch of animals and done tip of a speaker. Um,
Speaker 1: I think things have changed a lot. Yeah. I mean
Speaker 1: my grandfather he still has that a twenty two, you know,
Speaker 1: back back at the front door, just in case there's
Speaker 1: a skunker. I mean something like I just I don't know,
Speaker 1: like whatever, whatever, But I think but again, I think
Speaker 1: it's like what Jana said, is that like our kids,
Speaker 1: they understand that is off limits them. And I'm out
Speaker 1: now that I say it out loud. You know, maybe
Speaker 1: I'm a little nervous about it. Maybe it's, you know,
Speaker 1: time to have a conversation. I got a question here
Speaker 1: about um, kind of the federal land transfer to states
Speaker 1: and how um, maybe you could educate us a little
Speaker 1: bit on some of these topics that we should be
Speaker 1: aware of and maybe, um, just I think it was
Speaker 1: interesting even just land, just the quick little conversation that
Speaker 1: we had before the before the show started. Um, I
Speaker 1: was not aware of some of that stuff, and it
Speaker 1: makes me kind of upset a little bit, And I
Speaker 1: think it might be good just to talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about that and just kind of drawn awareness educate
Speaker 1: us a little bit about that. Yeah, I think Land
Speaker 1: should do that. I'll just prep with Lands comments by
Speaker 1: saying that this this right now federal land transfers um
Speaker 1: probably probably the biggest issue we're facing right now from
Speaker 1: a conservation environmental standpoint, as far as it's something that's
Speaker 1: that's immediate and happening right now, not not a long
Speaker 1: term threat, but like a very immediate threat that's being
Speaker 1: addressed at this very moment in Washington. So yeah, Land,
Speaker 1: you should break down. I mean, this is something I
Speaker 1: probably talked about for a long time. So I'll try
Speaker 1: to give this kind of top lines and if people
Speaker 1: have more questions that want to dive deeper, we can
Speaker 1: do that. I think the first thing I would talk
Speaker 1: about is is really one of the things that I
Speaker 1: think is more American than apple pie and baseball is
Speaker 1: our public lands. It's a place that whether you have
Speaker 1: a lot of money or you don't, whether you live
Speaker 1: here in Seattle, in the city, or in you know,
Speaker 1: back into Zula, Montown where I'm from. We all own
Speaker 1: title the six d and forty million acres. These lands
Speaker 1: belong to everybody in this room, and anybody's listening to
Speaker 1: this podcast, anybody in America. I think, you know, you
Speaker 1: look at the system over in Europe where that really
Speaker 1: belongs to the rich and the elite and the privileged.
Speaker 1: And so Theodore Roosevelt helps start setting these lands aside
Speaker 1: back around you and n like that was something new.
Speaker 1: And at that time when he did that, it wasn't
Speaker 1: like everybody around the country was like this is a
Speaker 1: great idea. When he did that, it was to make
Speaker 1: sure that we have these lands in perpetuity and that
Speaker 1: they could continually use for conservation. That doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: you set up and you lock them away. That means
Speaker 1: you still have timber harvest. That means you still have crazin.
Speaker 1: It means you still have resource extraction. That means you
Speaker 1: still have hunting and fishing and perpetuity. But it's that
Speaker 1: multiple use that I think is the general idea of
Speaker 1: public lands that really sets us aside from any other
Speaker 1: country in this world. Now, I mentioned that there was
Speaker 1: some folks when theyot Roosevelt kind of started this process
Speaker 1: that didn't want him to do that. From my home
Speaker 1: state of Montana, Senator Wyoming, Senator Idaho, Senator they fought him.
Speaker 1: And so there's still those people that want to kind
Speaker 1: of take that for themselves. And so why do they
Speaker 1: want to take that for themselves. Well, they feel like
Speaker 1: there's too much regulation at a federal level and they
Speaker 1: want to like those resources. That's one of them. The
Speaker 1: second one is that they want to take them for themselves,
Speaker 1: and so they have their own private hunting grounds or
Speaker 1: their own kind of private playground, I would say, And
Speaker 1: so neither one of those I think help us in
Speaker 1: our American ideals. Now, the specific question that Matt asked
Speaker 1: around transfer to the states. So this idea of transfer
Speaker 1: to the states, again there's more of local control, we
Speaker 1: can do more with those resources, and the federal government
Speaker 1: can like that starts to sound okay. Now, what's a
Speaker 1: problem with that is since statehood, when these states first
Speaker 1: were granted lands, when they became the states, they've been
Speaker 1: divesting those lands. They've been selling those lands. And so
Speaker 1: why they do that, Well, they're they're set up to
Speaker 1: create money, and that's it's not that multiple use anymore
Speaker 1: that I talked about earlier, and so I think, um,
Speaker 1: you know, are set up to make money and and
Speaker 1: so right away I think those resources aren't sustainable and
Speaker 1: so they either rape and village and then divest them
Speaker 1: or they can't management the first place, you think about
Speaker 1: all the fires, think about the fire season that it's
Speaker 1: been in the news a lot, right states can't like
Speaker 1: if they had to take over the management with those
Speaker 1: like where they're gonna get the money to manage those fires,
Speaker 1: let alone road maintenance, let alone law enforcement, and so
Speaker 1: they'd have to sell them. And so I think this
Speaker 1: is not an issue that is new necessarily, it's something
Speaker 1: that's been going on since the beginning, and it's something
Speaker 1: that seems to cycle every fifteen or twenty years. But
Speaker 1: right now it seems to be more organized and uh,
Speaker 1: and there's more of a push for it. And I
Speaker 1: think the last thing I would says that in regardless
Speaker 1: you know, whether you hunt or fish on these public lands,
Speaker 1: whether you you know, go camping and huckleberry picking as
Speaker 1: we talked about earlier, like you if you don't do
Speaker 1: any of that stuff and spend time on them. I
Speaker 1: think you do care about clean air and clean water,
Speaker 1: and everybody in America should care about that. And like
Speaker 1: same percent of our streams start on national forest lands
Speaker 1: and public lands, and that to me, like that's one
Speaker 1: of the number one reasons. And you think about somebody
Speaker 1: owning those headwaters and what kind of bear they could
Speaker 1: hold you over, you know, on that right And and
Speaker 1: we're going through it right now and Missoula, we're trying
Speaker 1: to buy back our public water um because a company
Speaker 1: bought it and they're jacking up our prices, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: think about a foreign on company on in our water
Speaker 1: right now and what that would do to us. So
Speaker 1: I'd like to end on what the aspirational thing again
Speaker 1: is that it belongs to all of us. There's a
Speaker 1: sixty six billion dollar outdoor economy that's really based on
Speaker 1: our public lands. And if that is not only sustainable,
Speaker 1: it's but something we can grow. So in this great
Speaker 1: day of age and talking about job growth and we
Speaker 1: need to do this, we do that. That's when we
Speaker 1: should not mess around with well done. Yeah, I grew
Speaker 1: up similar to sound like what you guys did. I
Speaker 1: grew up in a perural community hunting and moving up
Speaker 1: here about a lot of people ask me why do
Speaker 1: you what do you have to hunt? Why do you
Speaker 1: choose hunt? And I just wondered if you guys could
Speaker 1: take a couple of minutes to explain um the importance
Speaker 1: of wildlife conservation has the different species and what maybe
Speaker 1: it would look like if that if nobody hunted, nobody fished,
Speaker 1: and why that wildlife conservation is important. Yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: huge question, and I think you could you could approach
Speaker 1: it through the lens of just looking at American history
Speaker 1: in general, or what's going on right now at this moment.
Speaker 1: Land a minute ago mentioned you know Roosevelt, uh doo Roosevelt.
Speaker 1: You know he's a wealthy city kid, right, but through
Speaker 1: his adventures through hunting and fishing, he became inspired to
Speaker 1: preserve landscapes. So it inspired him to take it to
Speaker 1: into advocacy on behalf of wild places and wild names.
Speaker 1: There was his avenue of exposure. So that's one of
Speaker 1: the things that comes from well how does hunting and
Speaker 1: fishing leave the conservation? That's one ways it awakens people
Speaker 1: to a world out there that they would not have
Speaker 1: otherwise known about. In a more pragmatic modern sense. Um,
Speaker 1: we have every state has a fishing game agency. Now
Speaker 1: you're fishing game agency responsible for habitat enhancement, habitat improvement,
Speaker 1: oftentimes various environmental regulations, enforcement of existing wildlife laws. They do,
Speaker 1: disease research, UM, access enhancement, access improvement meaning giving you
Speaker 1: ways to boat launch is, ways to get the water ways, trailerheads,
Speaker 1: to access forest land. Your state fishing game agency does
Speaker 1: all these things, and they work on game animals, but
Speaker 1: you can consider generally consider game animals and in non
Speaker 1: games pieces. So the vast majority of the vast majority
Speaker 1: of fish birds, wildlife in any given state is our
Speaker 1: non game, not targeted by hunters, not targeted by fishermen,
Speaker 1: but they fall under that same jurisdiction your state fishing
Speaker 1: game agency. Of the fifty state fishing game agencies that
Speaker 1: we have in this country, UM, all of them, sixty
Speaker 1: of their funding comes from hunter and fisherman revenues. So
Speaker 1: we really hunters and fishermen carry the financial burden of
Speaker 1: managing wildlife in this country. Another huge way that wildlife
Speaker 1: funding comes from hunters and fishermen is you go back
Speaker 1: to Pittman Robertson Act then the Dingle Johnson Act, and
Speaker 1: basically it's excise taxes on equipment. It's very specific to
Speaker 1: hunting and fishing disciplines. In the case of Pittman Robertson,
Speaker 1: this came in under the Wildlife Restoration Act in the
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties. It's an excise tax on guns and ammunition
Speaker 1: that generates what's the generator for You're closer billion dollars
Speaker 1: That money that comes from excised tax on any guns
Speaker 1: and ammunition. That money goes to his earmarked for wildlife work,
Speaker 1: wildlife restoration, habitat improvement work. States are able to get
Speaker 1: that funding if they meet certain criteria. One of those
Speaker 1: criteria is that their license sales they're hunting and fishing
Speaker 1: license sales have to be spent on core mission. A
Speaker 1: state cannot go in and rampage through their state fishing
Speaker 1: while they have agency and steal there were licensed revenues
Speaker 1: and apply them to other purposes like balancing the budget
Speaker 1: or and everything like that. If the state follows that
Speaker 1: law and they're using their licensed revenues for wildlife, they
Speaker 1: then can get Pittman Robertson funding, which is money from
Speaker 1: the excise taxes on guns and animal, but they have
Speaker 1: to use that as well. If they don't use it up,
Speaker 1: then it goes into a general fund for migratory while
Speaker 1: migratory bird conservation. So there's a lot of muscle in
Speaker 1: this way, and this is where our funding for wild
Speaker 1: life comes from now, as I think in culturally, we're
Speaker 1: getting to a place for other people other you know,
Speaker 1: I determined solver use, but other stakeholders are wanting more
Speaker 1: of a say in how we managed wildlife, but we're
Speaker 1: the ones paying for it all. So there's a general, uh,
Speaker 1: there's a general unease in the hunting and fishing community
Speaker 1: when you have other people who are not willing to
Speaker 1: financially kick in, who are wanting a bigger seat at
Speaker 1: the table when it comes to wildlife manage, or they're
Speaker 1: taking a perspective it's hostile to our general extracted use
Speaker 1: of wildlife resources, extracted but sustainable wildlife resources, yet the
Speaker 1: reluctant to pay in anything. When the Pivot Robertson tax
Speaker 1: came in in the nine it had overwhelming support among
Speaker 1: manufacturers who were going to certainly see a drop in
Speaker 1: sales because the prices on all their goods were gonna
Speaker 1: go about ten overwhelming support with hunters who at the
Speaker 1: time honey was about done in America because market hunters,
Speaker 1: unregulated hunters who are hunting to supply UH feathers to
Speaker 1: industry for meat to Eastern cities, they had nearly wiped
Speaker 1: out fishing game in this country. So these were people
Speaker 1: coming out of like scarcity to say, yes, we will
Speaker 1: pay a tax on all of our hunting and fishing
Speaker 1: equipment in order to build American wildlife back up. Now,
Speaker 1: if you go to other industries, like you go to
Speaker 1: the birding industry, backpacking, skiing, all these people who don't
Speaker 1: pay a ship and you ask these industries to kick
Speaker 1: in money and an exercise tax, all they do is
Speaker 1: just they're like, there's no way they could do it.
Speaker 1: We already have too many taxes. Can't do it. So
Speaker 1: if you if you have a hostile view of hunters
Speaker 1: and fishermen, you need to really come up with how
Speaker 1: you're gonna account for that amount of input, financial input,
Speaker 1: and advocacy. Because the people who are out there on
Speaker 1: a day to day basis, like back huntry, hunters and
Speaker 1: anglers who are out there on a day to day
Speaker 1: basis are finding the inspiration and their money is coming
Speaker 1: from that. So I don't really see a way forward,
Speaker 1: and no one has come to me with a way
Speaker 1: forward on how we're going to continue to enjoy the
Speaker 1: wildlife resources that we have in this country without this
Speaker 1: base of people who have been supporting it since the beginning.
Speaker 1: No one wants to take that question up. It's not
Speaker 1: coming from the Humane Society. It's just it's not coming
Speaker 1: from anybody. But els is that answer that hi? Um,
Speaker 1: I'm probably one of those people that you're talking about.
Speaker 1: I'm not really into hunting at all, but I appreciate
Speaker 1: the fact that you're saying that you're interested in conservation. UM.
Speaker 1: And I would definitely pay to uh sustain our wild places.
Speaker 1: But that's another topic, I guess. UM. I'd like to
Speaker 1: know what your take is on trophy hunting and killing
Speaker 1: animals that people won't eat, like wolves. Um. That's something
Speaker 1: I'm really passionate about, and I'd like to hear your
Speaker 1: point of view on that. Yeah, I'm a troll with
Speaker 1: the owner. If you walk into my house, UM, my
Speaker 1: house is is largely decorated with schools of animals that
Speaker 1: I wanted. Um, when when I hunt an animal, and
Speaker 1: and and we eat it. You know, the meat is ephemeral, right,
Speaker 1: we go through it pretty quickly. Uh. Yet I have
Speaker 1: these totems, these these like things of remembrance in my home.
Speaker 1: That gives that animal a permanent place of honor in
Speaker 1: my household, becomes something I talk about. I look at
Speaker 1: it and remember everything about that trip, who I was with,
Speaker 1: what was going on, the needs of the animals, vulnerabilities.
Speaker 1: That's how I choose to decorate my own UM. I
Speaker 1: think that it's much more beautiful. A skull of an
Speaker 1: animal I hunt is much more beautiful to me than
Speaker 1: any painting could ever be. So that, yeah, trophies are
Speaker 1: a big element of hunting for me. UM. As far
Speaker 1: as wolves, my particular view on the wolves is that
Speaker 1: I think that it's a moral crime two eliminate native
Speaker 1: fauna from the landscape in places where wolves were extirpated
Speaker 1: from from human causes, I think the wolves should be
Speaker 1: present on the landscape like all other large mammals. I
Speaker 1: think that sustainable populations of wolves and other predators should
Speaker 1: be managed as a renew old resource to UH at
Speaker 1: the discretion at the direction of state wildlife managers. I
Speaker 1: say that because it's a system that has worked exceedingly
Speaker 1: well for the last hundred fifty years UM, and I
Speaker 1: think that any violation of that system is going to
Speaker 1: lead to bigger problems down the road. So I do
Speaker 1: support wolf hunts in places where you have sustainable population
Speaker 1: of wolves, just as I support any renewable resource extraction
Speaker 1: where you're not gonna harm the long term viability of
Speaker 1: the population. So an answer, maybe your first comment first
Speaker 1: is that you'd love to be able to pay into
Speaker 1: the system. And I think one of the things that
Speaker 1: Steve didn't mentioned that was happening during the dirty thirties
Speaker 1: as well, when the kind of lid was falling off
Speaker 1: the prairie, right like, we had this unsustainable farming practices
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, these big the big dust
Speaker 1: will happened. We're in trouble. There's a thing called the
Speaker 1: duck stamp that came out of that, and it's this
Speaker 1: thing that all waterfowl hunters have to buy to be
Speaker 1: able to hunt a migratory species. That's something everybody in
Speaker 1: this room can buy as either a collective or something
Speaker 1: that wants to contribute to the conservation of national wildlife
Speaker 1: refuge and by law, I think what nineties and percent
Speaker 1: of that money has to go to buying weatlands have
Speaker 1: to So that's our national wildlife refuge system, right, And
Speaker 1: so anybody that cares about birds, and I would love,
Speaker 1: you know, the National Audubon Society to come out and
Speaker 1: say everybody should buy a duck stamp. But you, as
Speaker 1: an individual system, you can do that. You know, my
Speaker 1: kids aren't hunting yet, but I buy him a duck
Speaker 1: stamp every single year, partly for their collections because they're
Speaker 1: beautiful stamps, but also so I can tell them that
Speaker 1: story on how they're already contributing. So that's the first
Speaker 1: one they call the trophy hunting thing for me. Um
Speaker 1: had somebody explain kind of hunts me there today, and
Speaker 1: I thought it was a really good way as that
Speaker 1: that end thing that we do when we pull the trigger.
Speaker 1: It's like the very last page of that book. There's
Speaker 1: this whole story that comes before that, which to me
Speaker 1: is that trophy piece. And I was lucky enough to
Speaker 1: draw once in a lifetime tag this year in Montana
Speaker 1: for a bighorn sheep, very an iconic species that sheep.
Speaker 1: I am going to have that in my house. Is
Speaker 1: a remembrance of that hunt, but the trophy part. And
Speaker 1: I'm gonna remember some of those trophy naps that I
Speaker 1: had up on that hill in the middle of the day,
Speaker 1: when I hiked up feet and chasing these things around.
Speaker 1: I'm by myself, and I wake up like slobbering on
Speaker 1: the side of the mountain, Like I don't ever get
Speaker 1: to take naps anymore. So that like that, that that
Speaker 1: whole skull is gonna remind me of some of those times.
Speaker 1: And um so for me, I think that trophy piece
Speaker 1: um is usually concentrated on that end result when I
Speaker 1: think it's a lot of what brings it forward, at
Speaker 1: least for me. Um wolves very controversial issue. I'm like Steve,
Speaker 1: I'm glad they're back on the landscape. Uh. You know,
Speaker 1: a lot of places I hunt, I don't see a
Speaker 1: lot of wolves, but I hear a lot of wolves.
Speaker 1: And if the wolves are around, you know there's game around.
Speaker 1: So one, I think that's pretty cool. I think also mean,
Speaker 1: maybe you've heard the Yellowstone story. You know that these
Speaker 1: elk we're eating the heck out of the willows and
Speaker 1: then the wolves come back. You know, the wheels are
Speaker 1: now growing up now you got beaver again, I get
Speaker 1: better fish populations. I guess this whole ecosystem things. So
Speaker 1: I think it's really great that they're on the landscape. Um,
Speaker 1: but we're not living in a place where humans aren't anymore,
Speaker 1: and we are part of this system and those kind
Speaker 1: of populations that we manage, whether those are game populations
Speaker 1: or non game like, we are engaging in that, whether
Speaker 1: we like it or not. And so I think we
Speaker 1: have to have some sort of management of those wolves,
Speaker 1: um that we do just like we do any other species.
Speaker 1: You know, there's an interesting guy you should read about.
Speaker 1: He's an already explored by the last name is Stephenson,
Speaker 1: and he was even in the early around nineteen o three,
Speaker 1: he was making first contact with some Eskimo hunters around
Speaker 1: Coronation Golf in Victoria Island in the Canadian High Arctic.
Speaker 1: One thing that this is just the this is this.
Speaker 1: I know his favorite wild game was wolf, but the
Speaker 1: main point he spent some time with some hunters who
Speaker 1: would when they would kill a polar bear, they would
Speaker 1: bring the polar bear back to their lodge and they
Speaker 1: would leave the polar bear's head in the room. So
Speaker 1: the polar bear is facing out towards the family. The
Speaker 1: thinking being this polar bear would observe this family, recognize
Speaker 1: that they were an honorable family, and then he would
Speaker 1: report back to other polar bears and say, Hey, if
Speaker 1: someone's gonna kill you, haven't be this guy. He's a
Speaker 1: good dude. Um. I don't view it with that level
Speaker 1: of spirituality, and I don't want to suggest that I do,
Speaker 1: but I do think that there is an exchange going
Speaker 1: on about honor and an exchange going on about your
Speaker 1: value system when you do give these items a ace
Speaker 1: of respect and reverence in your home. I do know
Speaker 1: as well that it doesn't speak to other people. I
Speaker 1: have served the first meal of I've served literally hundreds
Speaker 1: of people their first wild game dinner. When people come
Speaker 1: into my home and they see that I have skulls
Speaker 1: and animal hides around the home, they never look at that,
Speaker 1: and they I know that they don't see what I see.
Speaker 1: In fact, didn't look at it, and they go like, oh,
Speaker 1: this guy must be some kind of asshole. Now, when
Speaker 1: they said down, eat a meal of wild game, they
Speaker 1: get really excited all of a sudden. They want to
Speaker 1: go on a hunt. They're real curious. They want to
Speaker 1: talk about this animal. So I recognize that it is
Speaker 1: a it's a divisive thing because I think that it's
Speaker 1: like they're on a certain trip when they see it.
Speaker 1: You know that there are few of the animal has
Speaker 1: been sort of tainted or colored by contemporary culture. That
Speaker 1: hasn't happened to the food, though for some reason people
Speaker 1: really respond will of the food. So I do know,
Speaker 1: I know what you're getting. I don't want to seem
Speaker 1: like I'm being a smartass. I know what you're getting
Speaker 1: at about trophies, but I think that I just feel
Speaker 1: like it would be helpful for you to understand one
Speaker 1: person relationship to the handlers on the wall in his home. Hi.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm Nolan. I have a kind of a touchy
Speaker 1: subject with this, and it's probably a long so you
Speaker 1: can hopefully narrow it down, but it's touching along well.
Speaker 1: It's regarding you know, like predators and hunters and landowners.
Speaker 1: It's like, is there an area in this country where
Speaker 1: it currently is working? I mean maybe Canada or something
Speaker 1: like that, but is there a spot where he's in
Speaker 1: northeastern Washington. We've had, I mean some spots where you
Speaker 1: put in wolves and there's one area that it clearly
Speaker 1: did not work. So I was wondering if there was
Speaker 1: some spots where we could look at hopefully replicate for
Speaker 1: this for the state. I think where grizzly bears are
Speaker 1: right now in the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem. UM, I think
Speaker 1: it's working, not without tensions. But I think if you
Speaker 1: look at the distribution of grizzlies in Montana, the current
Speaker 1: distribution of grizzlies in Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho of what's
Speaker 1: called g y and then also the Northern Yellowstone eco
Speaker 1: or I'm sorry, the Northern Rockies ecosystem current distribution of grizzlies.
Speaker 1: Some biologists argue they're probably at carrying capacity there that
Speaker 1: no matter what you do, you're not gonna see more bears.
Speaker 1: They don't top the bears themselves won't tolerate denser populations.
Speaker 1: If you froze that picture right now, I think you
Speaker 1: would find a sustainable model, not without tension. It's not
Speaker 1: without livestock issues, I think from an urban perspective, because
Speaker 1: is the thing I always called Yellowstone syndrome, and it's
Speaker 1: like that people's understanding of wildlife ecology and wildlife management
Speaker 1: stems from sort of looking at these Christine bordered chunks
Speaker 1: of place, and they don't pay attention to what it
Speaker 1: actually means for the people who live in this landscape,
Speaker 1: who are trying to be involved in cattle ranching, for instance.
Speaker 1: They don't have a lot of empathy for what it's
Speaker 1: like for someone who's who's raising livestock as a way
Speaker 1: of supporting their family and they're dealing with large predators
Speaker 1: on the landscape, like what that means for them. Um.
Speaker 1: But in that case, I think that we've we've we've
Speaker 1: hit like a workable situation. Now you talk to people
Speaker 1: at the state level, whelming they're leery about bears moving
Speaker 1: out of that area there. They're they're leery about the
Speaker 1: east eastward southward expansion of grizzly bears because people feel
Speaker 1: like outside of this core area, which is about chunk
Speaker 1: of land the size of Indiana. Outside of this core area,
Speaker 1: conflict is gonna outweigh benefit. That's open to debate. I'm
Speaker 1: not even sure how I feel about a person, but
Speaker 1: I think that I think that um, in fifty years
Speaker 1: and a hundred years, we could very well have that
Speaker 1: many grizzlies living on that many square miles and it
Speaker 1: being a peaceful relationship. We're all interests could be like
Speaker 1: it's working, it's okay, um, And it came about through
Speaker 1: a lot of through a lot of fighting, a lot
Speaker 1: of infighting. But if it's working now, I think grizzlies
Speaker 1: could work in some more places too. They can't work everywhere.
Speaker 1: If you look at the historic distribution of grizzlies, it's
Speaker 1: from about where the Missouri River, you know, the Missouri
Speaker 1: hooks southward from there out to um the Pacific Coast.
Speaker 1: I pointed on the outfit, I wrote the New York Times,
Speaker 1: when you when you're looking at grizzlies, don't confuse Golden
Speaker 1: Gate Park with Yellowstone Park. Right we will never have
Speaker 1: full recovery, which would mean grizzlies right here. It's just
Speaker 1: not gonna happen. So there's always like ideal, like your idealistic,
Speaker 1: do you we'd recover them everywhere. It's just not pragmatic.
Speaker 1: It's not gonna have. But there are places where I
Speaker 1: would argue this, where do you feel like it's working there? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean I give you a real specific one, and
Speaker 1: it's in the Blackfoot Valley, so just outside of Miszoola
Speaker 1: where I'm from. River runs through it. Know about that
Speaker 1: book or that movie, right, So that's where the Blackfoot
Speaker 1: River is. And they came together a long time ago
Speaker 1: as a ranching community and said, we want to keep
Speaker 1: this place, uh the way it is right now. And
Speaker 1: so they first coalesced around wheats, right. Wheat invasion is
Speaker 1: really bad for the native grass that their their cows
Speaker 1: are eating. So they first came around and they came
Speaker 1: around around access that a bunch of hunters always knocking
Speaker 1: on their doors, and that's kind of where there's private
Speaker 1: public access to private land program. That's how they successful
Speaker 1: in Montana came from. So now as there's this is
Speaker 1: this borders for those in other landscape, there's the Bob
Speaker 1: Marsha Wilderness and Glacier Park above that. So it's this
Speaker 1: huge complex of wild land. And so you've had grizzly
Speaker 1: bears in there for a long time, if they're coming
Speaker 1: back even more, and now the wolves have kind of
Speaker 1: exploded on there. And so in that same context of
Speaker 1: trying to keep their places similar, they're doing a lot
Speaker 1: of work with a local nonprofit called Blackfoot Challenge, and
Speaker 1: that's a specific group you could reach out to and
Speaker 1: ask that exact question. And so there's you know, when
Speaker 1: there's a grizzly bear in the area, everybody knows kind
Speaker 1: of where it is, and so they are you know,
Speaker 1: doing different things to kind of avoid that. One of
Speaker 1: the practices they used to do is every time they
Speaker 1: had a dead cow, they go put it in the
Speaker 1: bone yard. But what does that do? That brings in
Speaker 1: grizzly bears that are hungry, right, and so instead of
Speaker 1: doing that, they're burning those animals now and making sure
Speaker 1: that's not an attractive Another one would be like like uh,
Speaker 1: bee hives, be hives becoming more and more popular. Everybody
Speaker 1: likes having their own honey, right, and and so um
Speaker 1: uh they are electrifying fences around that now before they
Speaker 1: kind of we're having to live with grizzlies or that
Speaker 1: they have this uh um, I guess respect for them. Uh,
Speaker 1: those bears are getting in trouble and those bears are
Speaker 1: getting killed. So now like these bears that are avoiding
Speaker 1: people all the time because they get in trouble when
Speaker 1: they're mountain people. Before it was just like a big
Speaker 1: free for all, and so um, I think that's a
Speaker 1: specific place to work. I think that Steve's right that, um,
Speaker 1: the greater Yellowstone Area and the Northern Rockies as a
Speaker 1: as a whole a great place to look. But that's
Speaker 1: a real specifical one, you know. I think that, yeah, creation,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's such a rid rich subject because I
Speaker 1: don't know if anybody need to realize. You guys know
Speaker 1: that you have a heard of caribou in your state
Speaker 1: that flirts with the border. So there are now about
Speaker 1: a dozen caribou left in the US, and they're right
Speaker 1: at this very second, probably none are in the US,
Speaker 1: but there's a population of a dozen, you know, Mountain
Speaker 1: caribos some people call the woodland cariboo that moved between Washington, Idaho.
Speaker 1: The Montana ones are gone gone. Now, when you have
Speaker 1: a population of one dozen animals, losing an animal to
Speaker 1: predator to a predator is a humongous deal. If you
Speaker 1: have two d you can support some predation. But when
Speaker 1: you have a dozen and you lose a female, that's
Speaker 1: a major blow. It could be the thing that means
Speaker 1: that we will not have those things anymore. People tend
Speaker 1: to really like those sort of like calendar animals and
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, um, you know, like a New Jersey
Speaker 1: cat lady is not inspired by a caribou the way
Speaker 1: she is by a wolf. So by playing our favorites
Speaker 1: and by using even things like the Endangered Species Act
Speaker 1: and turning it into a sort of my favorite animal
Speaker 1: protection Act, we eve in some ways shot ourselves in
Speaker 1: the foot when it comes to while they manned because
Speaker 1: people really don't want they want to be like I
Speaker 1: love wolves. Hurting wolves is bad. Anyone wants to kill
Speaker 1: a wolf as a terre whole person and not looking
Speaker 1: out and also trying to measure it with this idea
Speaker 1: of we're trying to say one doesn't care you. Once
Speaker 1: they're gone, you will not get them back. They can
Speaker 1: do a thing right now, like they can take care
Speaker 1: of you from other locations and bring care of them
Speaker 1: into Washington and Idaho to supplement this existing doesn't when
Speaker 1: those doesn't vanish, and it could happen anytime. You will
Speaker 1: never have the political cloud and the financial stuff to
Speaker 1: just do an outright reintroduction of bringing carebo and it
Speaker 1: will not happen. So if you talk to someone who
Speaker 1: works on this careb who heard and then you want
Speaker 1: to talk about predator management with them, you will get
Speaker 1: a very different picture than what you think of when
Speaker 1: you think of some you know, meanal rancher who doesn't
Speaker 1: want wolves killing off his cabs. It's a rich subject,
Speaker 1: and I think that when you're gonna weigh in with opinions,
Speaker 1: you kind of have an obligation to go look at
Speaker 1: the whole braw a picture of what's going on out there.
Speaker 1: There are many different viewpoints than, many different interests than
Speaker 1: what you might feel by, you know, looking at some
Speaker 1: picture on Facebook that blows up because it's a guy
Speaker 1: that shout a bold it took a picture of them
Speaker 1: sitting there with It's a lot more afflic I just
Speaker 1: said a question. Uh, So I've never really thought about
Speaker 1: the public land ownership and uh having ownership in that myself,
Speaker 1: and just relatively recently the last couple of years, I've
Speaker 1: gone out to some of the national parks in Utah
Speaker 1: and then also some of the state parks here in Washington,
Speaker 1: UH and really just started appreciating those are are kind
Speaker 1: of our best national resources and exposure to uh some
Speaker 1: of the stuff going on to where that could eventually
Speaker 1: go away or change hands or not be uh in
Speaker 1: the same format in our future. UM has really kind
Speaker 1: of uh I've gotten interested in that subject through this.
Speaker 1: But are there things that we can do, uh to
Speaker 1: kind of get engaged in the protection of public lands
Speaker 1: or or what can we do as kind of individuals
Speaker 1: are new to this, uh to kind of help with
Speaker 1: that cost. Yeah, that's a great quat that left lands
Speaker 1: and dark that most But I'll just point out that
Speaker 1: I grew up at the southern terminus of Manistee National Forest.
Speaker 1: Our view of it was that it somehow fell from
Speaker 1: the sky right. We used it all the time, never
Speaker 1: gave an inkling of thought to how it came to
Speaker 1: be and what would what do we need to do
Speaker 1: to make sure it continues to exist. It's like you know, apathy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: app here's lack of awareness about what it is that
Speaker 1: it's actually like in this ongoing fight, and that we're
Speaker 1: still having this national debate about the validity of publicly
Speaker 1: owned land. UM. In my mind, one of the biggest
Speaker 1: steps sort of preserving our public lands is for people
Speaker 1: to become aware of how they came to be and
Speaker 1: to understand that there are still people questioning our intent
Speaker 1: and making them UM. But I think that just basic
Speaker 1: awareness seems to drive a lot of action as far
Speaker 1: as specific action, Uh, I think land should speak there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I can be selfish and put a plug
Speaker 1: in for back countree hunters and anglers join us today.
Speaker 1: And I think besides building numbers for us so we
Speaker 1: have more cloud when we go out to Washington, d C,
Speaker 1: it's it also places to educate yourself and we also
Speaker 1: make it easy for you to engage. And a lot
Speaker 1: of people in this political climate right now or just
Speaker 1: in general, don't think that your voice counts anymore. And
Speaker 1: you know, like making a phone call, sending an email,
Speaker 1: writing a letter to the editor at your at your
Speaker 1: local newspaper, I think it doesn't matter. And I'm gonna
Speaker 1: tell you that's exact opposite. Every time we talk to
Speaker 1: politicians out in d C. They know when there's actually
Speaker 1: real noise happening out there, and they care about being reelected.
Speaker 1: Their constituents matter to them. And so that phone call
Speaker 1: we talk about it. If they start to get about
Speaker 1: ten phone calls, they start to pay attention, they get
Speaker 1: a hunting phone calls. Let me tell you what they're
Speaker 1: paying attention. And so I think the more people are
Speaker 1: engaging that way, I think it's an important thing. Um
Speaker 1: and it's not. I mean there's basically if you talk
Speaker 1: to those centers and talk to their staff like you're
Speaker 1: not talking unless you know that center, you're probably not
Speaker 1: gonna be able to talk to them unless you see
Speaker 1: them at an event. So their staff is the one
Speaker 1: picking up the phone and they got a little checklist
Speaker 1: they're keeping score, right, and here's where we hear it
Speaker 1: on this side here and we're hear it on the other.
Speaker 1: The same thing with emails. I would say that, um,
Speaker 1: you know, will help you craft emails, but the more
Speaker 1: you do that yourself, that counts a little bit more. UM.
Speaker 1: And again, I think we can help you do that.
Speaker 1: But a lot of people want to have apathy like
Speaker 1: he's talking about, Oh, they're just here and they're always
Speaker 1: going to be here, or others think that their voices
Speaker 1: don't count. I will tell you that it may feel
Speaker 1: like that, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. Um.
Speaker 1: The last thing I would say is that, you know,
Speaker 1: part of the reason we're having this discussion is because
Speaker 1: some people want to see management improved on our federally
Speaker 1: managed public lands. I would agree with that, and so
Speaker 1: there's opportunities to get involved, like get a travel management
Speaker 1: level plan or a resource level of plan, and so
Speaker 1: you have input on the local place where you're going. Um.
Speaker 1: They you know, a lot of there's a lot of
Speaker 1: talk about last DC ton us what to do. Those
Speaker 1: decisions get made at a local level. UM. So that's
Speaker 1: kind of like the Short and Dirty become a member
Speaker 1: not just of US, but of other conservation organizations that
Speaker 1: are engaged in this public land's fight. We worked with
Speaker 1: a large smattering. I would say that one of the
Speaker 1: great things that I've noticed here in the last couple
Speaker 1: of years, it's like outdoor users have their own groups,
Speaker 1: like the International Mountain Biking Association, the Kayakers. They're starting
Speaker 1: to come to this issue because of the threats that
Speaker 1: there is, and they understand. And I talked to a
Speaker 1: woman who's a member of ours this last weekend arena.
Speaker 1: She's a big long distance a question rider like she
Speaker 1: rides horses. That's what she does. Like she's going thousand
Speaker 1: miles ride. Where can you do that anywhere else? And
Speaker 1: she came to us again, it's a plug for us,
Speaker 1: but we're being this isn't really the issue that we
Speaker 1: work on his public land strictly, and so no matter what,
Speaker 1: we're gonna be standing up for him. She saw us
Speaker 1: being consistent on that time and time again, so that's
Speaker 1: why she's a member of ours, And to me, UM,
Speaker 1: that's again we all have a stake in this. I
Speaker 1: don't care if you hunt or fish, ride horses, pickuckle berries,
Speaker 1: or just enjoy the clean air and clean water. We
Speaker 1: have to do something and if not, we're gonna be
Speaker 1: sitting there in a few years and being like man,
Speaker 1: I wish I would have done something, and by then
Speaker 1: it's gonna be too late. I think it support you
Speaker 1: to understand at this point it's not strictly a partners
Speaker 1: an issue at all. UM. The incoming head of Interior
Speaker 1: Department has stated several times that he has no interest
Speaker 1: in seeing our federal lands liquidated. The incoming president has had,
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes some somewhat conflicting messages, but has stated
Speaker 1: he's not interested in saying off our public lands. Yet
Speaker 1: other people within their political party UM have advocated on
Speaker 1: behalf of selling off publican federal public lands. So it's
Speaker 1: not really decided yet. I think that whatever party you affiliate,
Speaker 1: I think you need to bring it up to your
Speaker 1: representatives and let them know because hopefully it won't become
Speaker 1: something that's just like this, this binary Republican Democrat battle
Speaker 1: is not shaping out to be that way. So I
Speaker 1: think that you need to speak up to your representatives
Speaker 1: to just like just like Land saying, to make sure
Speaker 1: that it doesn't become something that it falls along party lines.
Speaker 1: Right now, there's people advocating on both halfs, and like
Speaker 1: Land mentioned earlier, we have a great um sustainable economy
Speaker 1: built around public lands, and so we need to speak
Speaker 1: to the business aspect of it too. I hate being
Speaker 1: in a situation of trying to justify things of beauty
Speaker 1: in terms of finance, but in this case, I think
Speaker 1: it makes sense. I think it's useful to do it,
Speaker 1: Like how many coffee drinkers use public lands? Oh right,
Speaker 1: so Steve, we're coming up on our time. Is uh,
Speaker 1: what haven't we asked? What can we wrap it up with?
Speaker 1: What kind of knowledge can you drop on us? Like
Speaker 1: a concluding bob concluding that? What's the concluding thoughts? I
Speaker 1: never thought I was gonna say that, Yeah, that's one.
Speaker 1: I don't have one. Oh, I was thinking still about
Speaker 1: predators on this wo woman asked about it just like
Speaker 1: a place in the United States where it seems to work.
Speaker 1: And I was just thinking about like one of those
Speaker 1: common predators it's out there. But again it's not one
Speaker 1: of those calendar animals, but the coyote that specys enjoying
Speaker 1: great um, you know, population growth all across our country.
Speaker 1: It's everywhere now, Like you know, we grew up in Michigan,
Speaker 1: never had in kiots growing up. You know, now they're
Speaker 1: all over Michigan and all over the Eastern Seaboard and
Speaker 1: it's cool, it's neat. They seem to be balancing and
Speaker 1: make them do and the people that are seen them
Speaker 1: are so far interested in them. That could change as
Speaker 1: soon as you know, a people more cats and small
Speaker 1: kids getting nipped, you know, in Central Park. People might
Speaker 1: not have the same view on kyotes, but I feel
Speaker 1: like all across our country coyotes and people are making
Speaker 1: do you know, yeah, we got kyot in places at
Speaker 1: the time of European contact there word okayo right um yeah.
Speaker 1: Another thing in that way, if you look at we
Speaker 1: talked about wolves and grizzlies, um and how they fitting
Speaker 1: out and occupy historic range. I alviously think it's helpful
Speaker 1: to point out that elk only occupy about I think
Speaker 1: it's about four ten or four ten or fourteen percent
Speaker 1: of the historic range. At the time of European contact,
Speaker 1: you had elk across the United States of America, So
Speaker 1: you know, like elk are we've really accepted elk as
Speaker 1: sort of this like iconic big game animal. Right we
Speaker 1: have how many there's what a couple hundred dollars and
Speaker 1: elk whelming as two hundred l Colorado is more than
Speaker 1: app all over the place. Um, but we haven't even
Speaker 1: begun the recovery built if you think about it in
Speaker 1: terms of east of the Mississippi River. So I think
Speaker 1: that when we look at our large predators and we
Speaker 1: sort of weigh, like, what would recovery look like, what
Speaker 1: does sustainability look like? I think it's important to keep
Speaker 1: that in mind. We've definitely accepted elk as a renewable resource,
Speaker 1: but again, they occupy a ten percent of their historic
Speaker 1: range here. Um, It's it's a very these issues are
Speaker 1: very complicated, and I think that if you're interested, if
Speaker 1: you owe it yourself to kind of start to understand
Speaker 1: the historic context of some of the decisions we're making
Speaker 1: right now. Uh my closing thought, I mean to thank
Speaker 1: Chad for bringing us in here. You know, I think, um,
Speaker 1: when I uh for sure that we're coming in here,
Speaker 1: I didn't know what kind of crowd would have. You know,
Speaker 1: I don't know if there's anna two people or honor people.
Speaker 1: I didn't know what kind of questions they are gonna
Speaker 1: be asking. The question and diversity of questions today are
Speaker 1: super impressive to me. The size of the crowd are
Speaker 1: super impressive. I think that for me, um ah, that's enlightening.
Speaker 1: And I think, you know again, these public lands, because
Speaker 1: I'm gonna leave you with they belong to all of
Speaker 1: us and it's up to us to keep them that way.
Speaker 1: And you know, I I hope that you all start
Speaker 1: to educate yourself a little bit more on this issue,
Speaker 1: that you do get engaged. This is still a democracy
Speaker 1: that can work and should work. But the squeaky wheel
Speaker 1: gets the grease, and if they're hearing from somebody else,
Speaker 1: they're not hearing from people that care about public lands,
Speaker 1: then we're gonna lose. And you know, we've had a
Speaker 1: lot of conversations about kids today and that's the part
Speaker 1: that I think my kids are hopefully going to have
Speaker 1: the same opportunity as I did. But believe me, that
Speaker 1: can slip away in the generation and you think about
Speaker 1: the future generations and what this country that we tried
Speaker 1: to set up differently where it was much more of
Speaker 1: a democracy that led things than you know, oligarchy. Let's
Speaker 1: let's keep it that way. And this is one of
Speaker 1: those ways that I think we can do that. And
Speaker 1: so I think that takes everybody from all walks of
Speaker 1: life to be able to do that, and we're you know,
Speaker 1: it's hundreds of anglers were just a small piece of that.
Speaker 1: So that's where I did. Yeah, I don't know one
Speaker 1: to ask about the relative merits of eight by thirty
Speaker 1: over ten by fifty four over prism acts question, because
Speaker 1: that would have stopped me and I would have passed
Speaker 1: that right to you. All right, thank you very much, Steve.
Speaker 1: I just want to appreciate you guys coming in you
Speaker 1: j honest and and Lamb flu In from Montana to
Speaker 1: be here with us today. Steve's a local boy now,
Speaker 1: but I don't be claimed Stanley. Do you claim us
Speaker 1: as your home undeniable right right here? Yeah, I'm still
Speaker 1: a little sad about that. So I can we get
Speaker 1: around of blast where I guess today. Thank you. Two
Speaker 1: defeats in qual