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Checking 12 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: in with Emily Saul of The New York Post for 13 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: the latest on the El Chapo trial, which, if it 14 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: were not the era of Trump, where everybody's hair is 15 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: on fire and screaming at each other and kids on 16 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: the mall and old Indians and the rest of it. 17 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: If we weren't living through this, everybody would be talking 18 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: about the El Chopo trial, Emily joins us. Now, Hey, Emily, 19 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: how are you, good morning? I'm well, thank you, thank 20 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: you for spending little time with us again, So tell 21 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: us what's unfolded in the last few days. At the 22 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: l Chapel trial. It's been a it's been a very 23 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 1: dramatic last couple of days. Um, we've had family drama. 24 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:14,040 Speaker 1: We've heard about Emma's involvements. Um, those were completely new 25 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: details that we've never gotten before. And is that is 26 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: the wife, Yes, his wife, Emma cornell Um, who we 27 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: now have been told aided in his infamous two thousands 28 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: fifteen prison escape, the one with the tunnel in the motorcycle. Well, 29 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: in fairness to her, if I went to my wife instead, Judy, 30 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: can you help me with an infamous prison escape? And 31 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: she said no, that would affect our marital bonds, very 32 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: very likely. She had a number of things to consider, 33 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: and a motorcycle. Was he riding the motorcycle in the 34 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: tunnel or did you run through the tunnel and get 35 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: on a motorcycle? So the motorcycle was in was in 36 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: the tunnel's tunnel. It was likely it was likely a 37 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: byproduct of the building of the tunnel, because it looked 38 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: a little bit more like a trolley cart that continued 39 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: to remove dirt. But after he wrote that motorcycle, he 40 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: on the back of an a TV and was taken 41 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: to a warehouse where Um. He was then transferred to 42 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: an airplane where he jumped on a horse. UM. And 43 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: then yeah, yesterday we had definitely the most graphic testimony yet. 44 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: So it's been a it's it's been an interesting it's 45 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: been an interesting couple of days. Yesterday jurors heard about 46 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: three murders that Mr Guzman himself is alleged to having 47 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: with his own hands, I mean with a gun, but 48 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: him personally, though he didn't order them, Okay, him personally, 49 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: not those that he ordered. And I will warn you 50 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: those are probably the details of those are very graphic, 51 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: probably not suitable for many of your viewers. It was 52 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: brutal to the point where I've I've seen a lot 53 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: in court over the years, and it was it was 54 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: astounding today, even by even by court reporter standards. They 55 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: were gruesome. Okay, So this trial has been going on 56 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: for how long now, we just wrapped up our tense 57 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: fleets weak. So what I've been following from your reporting, um, 58 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 1: is how he I knew he bought off mayors, city councilman, 59 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: police force, but then then you go up to the 60 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: governors and clear up to the president. He had such 61 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: a network of people helping him, and it was it well, 62 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: I guess it was the old silver or leads some 63 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: of me paid off and someone were just scared of him. Yes, 64 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: I mean most definitely. You know, he had a number. 65 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,239 Speaker 1: It wasn't and it wasn't just him. It was because 66 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 1: of the vast nature of his network and the number 67 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: of people he had across the country who had access 68 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: to a number of different public officials and offices, you know, 69 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: be they any of the variety, like they have a 70 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: number of different tiers of police in Mexico um or 71 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: you know, like the their equivalent of the attorney's General's office. 72 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: They just had people. There were so many connections across 73 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: this well, and they got to people so early that 74 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: you would have people early on in their political careers 75 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: who were taking bribes, perhaps by force, because they were 76 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: afraid not to, and as they ascended in their careers, 77 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: they're sort of once you start taking bribes, you don't. 78 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: You can't. You can't just say suddenly, I'm no longer 79 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: going to help you, right, you went too far, I'm out. 80 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: It doesn't work that way. And now if you don't, 81 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: you don't leave the cartel. And in Mexico, so worth 82 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: pointing out for those who are not familiar with it, 83 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: for a lower level official to be approached and either 84 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: take a few bucks or a few bullets is not 85 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: way out of them the norm. I mean, that's not 86 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,559 Speaker 1: that extraordinary development. And you point out then that person 87 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: is reasonably successful before you know, if they're the governor. Yeah, 88 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: that's that's troubling. I hadn't really thought about it anyway. 89 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: What I don't understand, Emily, and this is really interesting 90 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: to me. At what point do you become a narco state? Um? 91 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: Because it would grow over time, and there's a tipping 92 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: point to where even if you were you wanted to 93 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: be a good law abiding citizen, you might think, boy, 94 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: I'll bet everybody in this courthouse works for El Chapo. 95 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: I can't speak my mind here. I have no allies. 96 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: Yeah right, no, definitely. I mean it's a very it's 97 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,039 Speaker 1: it's a very complicated landscape. Um. You know, I'm not 98 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: I'm not an expert certainly, and um and you know 99 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 1: the system in Mexico. But I think it's it's just 100 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: you know, generally, if you if you feel like your 101 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: public officials are corrupt, which I mean speaking with Mexican 102 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 1: reporters who are here covering the case UM. And especially 103 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: if you have someone who is as mythological as as 104 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 1: Chaco is, you know, he's he's a benefactor in certain 105 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: areas because he would provide certain assistance to UH towns 106 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: that felt neglected by UM by their government officials. The 107 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: sort of you end up with this UH, this interesting 108 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 1: dichotomy of who you know who will take care of you? 109 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: Who do you trust? The classic, the classic people been 110 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: doing it all over the world, you see, isis does 111 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: that in Sometimes you go in and you know, you restore, 112 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: restore law and order and pick up the garbage and 113 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: UH and keep the electricity on, and they're in the 114 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: populations on your side. Sure it's social you know, if 115 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 1: you have UH, if you have social services that are missing, 116 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: and you have a essentially an organization like the cartel 117 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 1: is that comes in and provide structure, it's a it's 118 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: a very easy way to UM to bring people in 119 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,239 Speaker 1: the Italian mom New York, New Jersey, you know, early 120 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: twentieth century. UH. Emily saul Is the New York Post 121 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 1: reporter covering the l Chapo trial. Have you gotten any 122 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: sense from some of the cross examination Emily during say 123 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: that the details of the gruesome you know, tortures and 124 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: murders and that sort of thing. How's the defense dealt 125 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: with that? Well, so far, the violence of the trial 126 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: has been very very sanitized. Um, we sort of got 127 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: the sense that the judge told the prosecutors they got 128 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: one chance to really relay all of the details, and 129 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: they used that chance yesterday. So we haven't started cross 130 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: on this witness yet, so we don't know how they 131 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 1: will deal with that specifically. Um, so far, the defense uh, 132 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: with witnesses who have said, you know, well, Chapol commission 133 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: to this murder, Chappo commission that murder, their basic try 134 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: g has been to just attack the general credibility of 135 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: the cooperator, who you know, has the member of the 136 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: cartel has often been in violent like involved in violence 137 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: themselves or at least another criminal activity. Um you know, 138 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: maybe had a drug problem, maybe has nefarious reasons for uh, 139 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: you know, and just you know a lambasting chap Oh 140 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: it's you know, they have they've they've gone ahold. It's 141 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: typically just been a credibility issue. Um, right, Well, you're 142 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: not going to find many angels who know what was 143 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: going on. I don't remember if we've talked about this. 144 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: How are they protecting the jury? Is the jury? Um? 145 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: Are they kept anonymous because he only has to get yes? 146 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: So UM, the jury is is very very protected. The 147 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: jury selection process was anonymous only in jury services here 148 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: in the courthouse. UM is aware of the furs actual identities. UM. 149 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: The judge himself, the the prosecutor's, the defense attorneys only 150 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: know them by a number. UM they are are. They 151 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: are picked up every day from private locations by the U. S. 152 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: Marshal Service and transported in that UM from you know, 153 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: to and from those locations. But there are a lot 154 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: of propations that have been taken surrounding the jury. I 155 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: mean they are in the room, they're in full view 156 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: of Mr Guzman, of the public and whoever may make 157 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: it into the courtroom. Yeah, I wouldn't want that. But 158 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: the details of their of their of their lives that 159 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: have been have been kept. Emily Stall of The New 160 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: York Post to Emily, fabulous job. As always, again, we 161 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: appreciate the time and uh and we look forward to 162 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 1: talking again. All right, thank you so much for having 163 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: absolutely and of course we'll have links to Emily's in 164 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: her colleagues reporting on this story so you can find 165 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: it quickly at the New York Post dot com. We 166 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: we say this all the time. We so a lot 167 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: of people really do take our culture of honesty and 168 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: law and order for granted. That so people are law 169 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: abiding and respectful of the law. It's got to be 170 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 1: frustrating to El Chapo that here he's at the word 171 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: house and what you're telling me, there's not somebody that's 172 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: gonna leak me to names, because that's the way it 173 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: works in Mexico. There's always somebody who will leak me 174 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: to names. Yeah, you might have the judge and prosecutor 175 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: in Mexico. Yeah, civilization is a miracle. But once people 176 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 1: get used to it, they take it for granted. Sure, 177 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: they think it's the permanent state of things, and that 178 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: it's inevitable that we are reasonably civilized and reasonably safe 179 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 1: in our homes. Um, it's not true. All you have 180 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:29,959 Speaker 1: to do is open your eyeballs and look around the world. 181 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: Do you want me to name thirty seven countries where 182 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: people aren't safe in their homes, aren't safe you know, 183 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 1: speaking out politically, aren't safe from drug lords and gang 184 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 1: lords and and and terrorist organizations. I could name you 185 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,079 Speaker 1: thirty seven and take a while because I probably get 186 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: bogged down midway through Africa. But but people take that 187 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:50,439 Speaker 1: for granted. It's just the nature of humanity. Yeah, the 188 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: natural state of man is nasty, violent, brutish and short. 189 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 1: This is a shortened stature, but shortened life. This is 190 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: an an natural thing we have going on right now, 191 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: where you can, you know, live your life and never 192 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: get extorted or strong armed most of us right by anybody, right. 193 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: It's a completely unnatural, practically americal. Yeah, whether you have 194 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: your own bathroom or you share one with your family, 195 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: a little extra help keep in the bathroom seeing counter 196 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: and mere clean goes a long way, and Viva paper 197 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 1: towels are for the long haul. 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