1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg Law. It was billed as a 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: free speech rally in the heart of downtown Boston, with 3 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:09,079 Speaker 1: a list of controversial conservative and libertarian speakers, but the 4 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: rally fizzled as some forty thousand counter demonstrators flooded the 5 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: Boston Common and the surrounding area and effectively shouted down 6 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 1: the group. The event was largely a peaceful one, putting 7 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: it in contrast with the deadly demonstrations a week earlier 8 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: in Charlottesville, Virginia. Here's Boston Police Commissioner William Evans. We 9 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: got the First Amendment people in, we got them out, 10 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: and um, you know, and no one got hurt, no 11 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: one got killed, and we don't really have a whole 12 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: lot of property. In fact, we have no significant at 13 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: all property damage to the city. So great day for 14 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: the city, Evans said. Twenty seven people were arrested with 15 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: us to talk about the events in Boston. Harvey Silverglade 16 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: he's a criminal defense and civil liberties litigator. He's of 17 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: consul to the law firm Zalkin, Duncan and Bernstein working 18 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: in Cambridge, Massachusetts. And Judy catoulis a professor at st 19 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: Oli College Um, thanks to both of you for joining me. 20 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:06,839 Speaker 1: I want to start with what happened on the ground 21 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 1: in Boston. Then maybe we can move into some of 22 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: the First Amendment implications. Harvey, who gets the credit in 23 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: Boston for the relative limited amount of violence that took 24 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 1: place on Saturday, Well, I guess the same people who 25 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: get the credit for the fact that the event was 26 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: a total failure. Um. This notion, uh, that there's a 27 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: kind of an epidemic of false facts going on around Boston. 28 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: If I could use that volatile phrase, the free speech 29 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: rally was a total and complete failure, uh, Police Commissioner. 30 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: Ever since we got the man and we got them out, 31 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: but one thing we didn't get. We didn't hear a 32 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: single word from the speakers. How this can be built 33 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: a free speech success is totally orwelling and totally beyond me. 34 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: It was a real failure. Junior. How do you assess 35 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: that that question who who gets credit and who gets 36 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: blamed for how things went forward in Boston on Saturday? Well, 37 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: I think that it's the city that gets the blame. 38 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: There is no credit because this is a failure, but 39 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: they get the blame. The whole event was mishandled by 40 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,519 Speaker 1: the city. Um, it could have easily gone off without 41 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: a hitch if the city only was a little bit smarter. 42 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: Judy catulis from from your vantage point at saying all 43 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: of college, Uh, what's your take on how the city 44 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: performed with with this demonstration. Well, I think most people 45 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: approached the idea of a free speech march in the 46 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,239 Speaker 1: same way that they misunderstand what the a c l 47 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: U does that they that they tended to see it 48 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: as one that was a partisan view that took a 49 00:02:54,440 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: partisan view, whereas I'm not knowing the specifics of the 50 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: what who was planned to speak in Boston or anything 51 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: like that. Um, the idea of civil liberties or protecting 52 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: free speech is a very tricky matter because it isn't 53 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: a partisan issue, it's a democratic one. Well, Julie, let 54 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: me just follow up on that. So, so, right after 55 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: William Evans, the Boston Police Commissioner, talked about the success 56 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: in limiting the violence and property damage. Uh, you know, 57 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: he went on to say something along the lines that, 58 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: you know, bigotry has no place here in Boston. Um. 59 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: Is that are you suggesting that a police commissioner should 60 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: be remain neutral and not not express views on the 61 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: underlying issues going on with the protest, Well, it depends 62 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: on the issues that he's expressing opinions on. UH. Free 63 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: speech as the A t L you would argue, belongs 64 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: to all groups as long as there isn't violence or 65 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: along is there falling within the parameters of the ways 66 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: that the United States defines free speech. But the police 67 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: commissioner definitely has to make some judgments about whether what 68 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: was planned falls into those parameters for defining free speech, Harvey, 69 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: what would you have had the city do differently? Since 70 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: you have criticized them? This event could not take place 71 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: in an open space like the Boston Common The fact 72 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: that tens of thousands of people showed up and they 73 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: were not peaceful, They were not calm and quiet. There 74 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 1: was a mob that made it impossible for the event 75 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: to go forward. Nobody could have heard a word that 76 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: would have been said. What the city should have done 77 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: was insist that this event be held in an enclosed 78 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: theater or at the amphitheater of some kind, where a 79 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 1: limited number of people would be in the audience, where 80 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: the police could have easily kept control in case somebody 81 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 1: got out of control and where it could have been 82 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: live streamed so that the whole world could have heard it. 83 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: There was such a simple solution. The police instead enabled 84 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: a pre riot condition to evolve and then got every 85 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 1: took every shut down the whole event, took the speakers 86 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: away before they could say word one, and then proclaimed 87 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: the success for free speech in Boston. It's nut. Our 88 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: guests are Judy Coutlass, a professor at Saying all Off College, 89 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: and Harvey Silverglades, Cambridge, Massachusetts, criminal defense and self civil 90 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: liberties litigator. UM. Judy, some of the comments I read 91 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: from the counter demonstrators essentially said this that what was 92 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:09,119 Speaker 1: going to go on at this this rally was hate 93 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: speech and it might even be a call to violence, 94 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: and therefore we were justified in in shouting them down 95 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: and preventing them from saying what they planned to say. 96 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: Do you agree with that? Um? No, I don't. Actually 97 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: I think that, um, free speech entitles people to other 98 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 1: ways of communicating that I can understand where there were 99 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: somewhat extenuating circumstances in Boston. UM. Had I been in Boston, 100 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 1: I might well have shown up at that counter rally. 101 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: But um, just in the abstract sense, I think that 102 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 1: it's problematic when one group of people shouts down and 103 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: shuts down another groups right to free speech. Harvey, what 104 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 1: do you think about that that question of of uh 105 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: this potentially being a call to violence? Um? At some point, UM, 106 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: isn't there a right to prevent a group from speaking 107 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: if what they are espousing UH could be dangerous? Well, 108 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: the the ridiculous analysis that we're hearing um, and that 109 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: is inherent in the question that you asked me, is 110 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: simply this, how do we know that speeches hate speech 111 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: until we've had an opportunity to hear it. Nobody heard 112 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: what these people have to say, And in fact, from 113 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: all we know, this was a very eclective group from 114 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: all over the political spectrum. But there is no reason 115 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: at all to think that hate speech was going to 116 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: be um, you know, spoken at this rally. But second 117 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: of all, hate speech is constitutionally protected. If we had 118 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: a First Amendment that only protected love speech, we wouldn't 119 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: have liberty at all. So this crowd that chucked down 120 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: this free speech rally violated the constitutional rights of the 121 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: speakers and violated the constitutional rights of people who wanted 122 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: to listen. I wanted to listen, Judy, I want to 123 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: ask you about the a c l U, which recently 124 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: said that it won't while it has represented white supremacists 125 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: UH and people across the ideological spectrum, that it won't 126 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 1: represent people who are carrying semi automatic UH military style weapons. 127 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 1: Is this a change in the way the a c 128 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: l U has approached this issue or or is this 129 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 1: a policy they've always had that we just didn't know about. 130 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: I think it's a change in other kinds of laws. UM. Certainly, 131 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: one of the rights guaranteed in the First Amendment is 132 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: the right right to assemble peacefully. The fact that so 133 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: many states have now enacted laws where you can carry 134 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: guns in public or concealed weapons in public UM means 135 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: that the a c l U is going to have 136 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: a trickier job, or any agency is going to have 137 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: a trickier job deciding how to interpret whether or not 138 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: a crowd is armed or dangerous or threatening or is 139 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: about to result in violence. It's it's just a something 140 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 1: outside of the a cl you've control that I think 141 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 1: is possibly an unexpected consequence of some of the laws 142 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: that have been passed in states regarding guns. Also, technological development, 143 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: Harvey what do we do about these two rights? Um? 144 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: It is in a lot of states perfectly legal, legal 145 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: for people to walk around with weapons being displayed. Um. 146 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: And uh, we have seen in the case of Charlottesville 147 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: that sometimes out accompanies people who are trying to speak 148 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: as well, and and that maybe having those weapons changes 149 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 1: how free other people feel to to speak there in opposition, 150 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: what do we do about those two to competing rights? 151 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: The first Amendment in the second Amendment? Well, first of all, 152 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: these are two amendments that are very clearly set forth 153 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: in the Bill of Rights, and I think the a 154 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: C O. You is trying to balance the two of them. 155 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 1: I happen to think that it's made a mistake, but 156 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: it's not a mistake from bad faith. I think it's 157 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: it's an error in judgment. And I think eventually the 158 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,719 Speaker 1: a c U and actually change its mind and come 159 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: back to its original position and that they will protect 160 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,959 Speaker 1: free speech in a rally even where people are armed. Um. 161 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: But I can't believe. I can't. I can't. I can 162 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: forgive the a c O. You for being quite shocked 163 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: by the events in Charlotte's Bille, and it's caused a 164 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: lot of people to stop and think and to question 165 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: things they've been believing and been doing. And so I 166 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 1: think the A c O. You can be forgiven if 167 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: it turns out this was a mistake. Judy, where do 168 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 1: you think this, this whole debate is going. Are you 169 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: concerned that we are are we getting into uh an 170 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:42,079 Speaker 1: escalation of of rhetoric and violence that is going to 171 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,959 Speaker 1: be harmful to to our conversation, or or is Boston 172 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: evidence that maybe we're we're moving in a more peaceful direction. Um. 173 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: I worry a lot about the present political climate and 174 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: the way that either side intern for it said, UM 175 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: that I worry that people who have minority views. Probably 176 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: I would like to hope about America as a white 177 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: nation or as one that isn't welcoming of various groups, 178 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: that that these people are. I would like to think 179 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: that they are a minority, but they feel like they've 180 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: been boldened by events recently and by um Donald Trump 181 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: and the White House. At the same time, I think 182 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: that as a younger generation steps in to respond to them, 183 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: sometimes they use different tactics that have evolved since the 184 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: sixties when there was so much protest in the United 185 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: States that that circumstances have changed. That technology has changed. 186 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: It's easier to gather a crowd very quickly through social media, 187 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: and so the same expectations about civil liberties and civil 188 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 1: rights and communication with people with whom you disagree. I 189 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: think all of that is just changing very, very rapidly. 190 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: We're going to have to leave it there. I want 191 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: to thank Judy Cotulas and Harvey silver Glade for talking 192 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: to us about the events in Boston this weekend. That's 193 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: it for this edition of Bloomberg Law, and we'll be 194 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: back tomorrow.