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Speaker 1: Outer space, a vast unknown frontier. We don't yet know

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Speaker 1: the dangers that lark beyond the stars, but unfortunately for

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Speaker 1: Captain Sidney Owens and Jenna Prescott, they're about to find out.

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Speaker 1: MAGMAO from I Heart Radio and Bamford Productions. Listen to

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Speaker 1: MAGMAAL on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. The Gangster Chronicles podcast is

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Speaker 1: a weekly conversation that revolves around underworld and criminals and

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Speaker 1: entertainers to victims, crime and law enforcement. We cover all

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Speaker 1: facets of the game Gamester Chronicles podcast doesn't glorify from

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Speaker 1: modilstit activities. We just discussed the ramifications and repercussions of

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Speaker 1: these activities because at the law if she played Gamester games,

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Speaker 1: you are ultimately rewarded with Gangster prizes. Our Heart Radios

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Speaker 1: number one for podcasts, but don't take our word for it.

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Speaker 1: Find Against the Chronicles p cast on my Heart Radio app,

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcast. On April four, Dr Martin

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Speaker 1: Luther King was shot and killed in Memphis. A petty

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Speaker 1: criminal named James Earl Ray was arrested. Case closed right.

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Speaker 1: James Sylvy was upon for the official story. Some of

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Speaker 1: the evidence, as far as I was concerned, did not

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Speaker 1: match the circumstances. This is the MLK tapes. The first

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Speaker 1: episodes are available now. Listen on the I Heart Radio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: Behind the Police, a production of I Heart Radio Depressing Ship.

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Speaker 1: I mean hello, I'm Robert Evans and this is Behind

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Speaker 1: the Police, the podcast that's normally Behind the Bastards, but

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Speaker 1: is for this week, last week, and next week, giving

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Speaker 1: a detailed history about the you know, the cops and such,

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Speaker 1: the systemic manifestation of white supremacy. Yeah, a bastardy Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And the voice that you heard that's not mine, justin

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Speaker 1: is Jason Petty, better known as the hip hop artist propaganda. Jason,

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Speaker 1: how are you continuing to do? Pulling a ham sandwich

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Speaker 1: out the damn cabinet? There we go, There we go.

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Speaker 1: I don't Yeah, I'm sorry. No, No, it's been hours, guys.

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Speaker 1: There hasn't been enough freestyling on this podcast because I

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Speaker 1: can't and shouldn't yeah, and and and I should not

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Speaker 1: let me go right to something that would be incredible,

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Speaker 1: that would be very fun. You and like Glue Network

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Speaker 1: as annalists like you guys just do a song and

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Speaker 1: then just all of a sudden, Robert Evans just raps.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, if I had any musical talent, that would

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Speaker 1: be that would be cool. But yeah, yeah, we all

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Speaker 1: have our gifts, and my gift is reading things that

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Speaker 1: are really depressing for I don't know, another ninety minutes

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Speaker 1: or so, um, which is a kind of music. But yeah, anyway, Uh,

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Speaker 1: we don't talk nearly enough about lynching um today and

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Speaker 1: and that's starting to change because of the recent you know, lynchings.

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Speaker 1: I think we're at six right now, possible lynchings. Um.

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Speaker 1: But lynching has a long and well, proud is the

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Speaker 1: wrong word. I should have put proud in there. But

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Speaker 1: it's a long history in the United States, and the

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Speaker 1: history of lynching in the US is not entirely a

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Speaker 1: racist what I mentioned this before, but actually the term

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Speaker 1: came out of like people hanging British tax collectors by

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Speaker 1: their thumbs and stuff. Um. Yeah, so like the first

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Speaker 1: lynching victims were British people, um, and kind of had

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Speaker 1: it coming because they were they were being dicks colonialistics. Um.

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Speaker 1: Obviously nobody thinks of British people when they think about

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Speaker 1: lynching victims. UM. It's also fair like worth noting that

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Speaker 1: during the period where lynching was most common in the

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Speaker 1: United States UM, like the late eighteen hundreds to the

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Speaker 1: mid nineteen hundreds, UM, not every person lynched was black,

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Speaker 1: although the vast majority were. UM. Lynching was used to

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Speaker 1: enforce racial terror from whites against blacks, but it was

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Speaker 1: also a really common method of what we'd call, you know,

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Speaker 1: thinking back to our first episode public spirit law enforcement,

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Speaker 1: you know, communities dealing with people that they saw as problematic,

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Speaker 1: some of whom were surely guilty, some of them probably

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Speaker 1: who certainly weren't. I found one analysis of four thousand,

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Speaker 1: four hundred and sixty seven lynching victims from eighteen eighty

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Speaker 1: three to nineteen forty one. Four thousand and twenty seven

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Speaker 1: victims were men, ninety nine were women, in three hundred

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Speaker 1: and forty one were of unknown or more accurately, nobody

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Speaker 1: wrote down what the gender was. Three thousand, two hundred

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Speaker 1: and sixty five of these four thousand, four hundred sixty

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Speaker 1: seven victims were black, one thousand and eighty two were white,

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Speaker 1: seventy one were Mexican, and thirty eight were American Indian,

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Speaker 1: while ten were Chinese, and one was Japanese. All of

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Speaker 1: these numbers are, of course likely somewhat low, because we'll

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Speaker 1: never know the total number of people who were lynching victims.

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Speaker 1: Um Now. Historians who study lynching generally divided into three

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Speaker 1: separate regimes. The Wild West, where lynching was mostly white

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Speaker 1: people lynching a lot of other white people in areas

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Speaker 1: where there just wasn't law enforcement in a way, so

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Speaker 1: like this was like how you dealt with people who

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Speaker 1: were a problem. Um. And then there was the slavery regime,

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Speaker 1: which was found in former slave states where lynching existed

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Speaker 1: as a form of social control against black people. And

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Speaker 1: then a smaller regime of lynching on the Texas Mexican border,

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Speaker 1: where Latinos were lynched by white Texans. So there's a

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Speaker 1: kind of the three broad areas that most lynchings during

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Speaker 1: the lynching period in the U s kind of come

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Speaker 1: come down to. Um Now. In all of these cases,

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Speaker 1: law enforcement was about as likely to support any given

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Speaker 1: lynching as it was to oppose it. Uh. There are

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Speaker 1: many cases and the lynchings of white and black people

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Speaker 1: alike where police officers would just hand over their keys

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Speaker 1: to an angry mob to let them in the jail.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes this was due to the officers supporting the crowd's efforts.

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Speaker 1: A lot of times it was simple pragmatism, because a

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Speaker 1: ton of lynch mobs would burn down jails when the

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Speaker 1: police resisted them. Um. So of this was just like, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to die. Yeah, there's one of me,

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Speaker 1: and I got a real shitty six gun, Like okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this job, they're worth it. Yeah. There there was a

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Speaker 1: lot of that, um yeah yeah, um. Now, this was

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Speaker 1: often the case police kind of backing away because they

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Speaker 1: didn't want their jail to get burned down and to

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Speaker 1: get killed themselves. This was often the case with lynchings

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Speaker 1: in Oklahoma. Oklahoma's fucking loved vigilante violence, still kind of do.

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Speaker 1: But like, oh man, historians who study this are like,

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Speaker 1: fucking Oklahoma, those are like yeah um. And this was

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Speaker 1: particularly the case in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Now, the Sooner State

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Speaker 1: was in general a big lynching state. It was number

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Speaker 1: eleven in the nation for lynchings, and Oklahoma was famous

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Speaker 1: for having a public that loved taking justice into its

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Speaker 1: own hands. We're gonna talk about the Tulsa race right

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Speaker 1: of in a bit and the burning of black Law Street,

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Speaker 1: Um yeah, Wall Street and on Law Street, um yeah.

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Speaker 1: And and obviously this is in the consciousness of a

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Speaker 1: lot more white folks recently because the TV show Watchman

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Speaker 1: featured it. But the year before that all happened, a

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Speaker 1: mob of white Tulson's rushed the county courthouse to lynch

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Speaker 1: a prisoner, a white prisoner. The local sheriff's department did nothing,

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Speaker 1: and the local police were supportive. The chief called the

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Speaker 1: lynching of real benefit to Tulsa and the vicinity, But

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Speaker 1: the sheriff actually got fired for kind of well that

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Speaker 1: you're not fired, like we're called for standing down, uh

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Speaker 1: to this lynching. And again, historians will often note that

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Speaker 1: prior to the race riot or racist riot of Tulsa

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Speaker 1: had relatively minimal history of mass violence from white people

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Speaker 1: against black people. Right, We're not gonna say it was

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Speaker 1: like congenial friendly relations between the races, but like the

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Speaker 1: racist riot in nineteen one was really it was shocking

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Speaker 1: to a lot of people because yet hadn't happened before

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Speaker 1: in Tulsa. Yeah. And and if you think about it,

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Speaker 1: like it's logical because the black community had time to

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Speaker 1: develop infrastructure and flourish and stuff like that, because they're

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Speaker 1: relatively just like, look, you stay over there, we stay

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Speaker 1: over here, we'll figure this out. And yeah. One of

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Speaker 1: the kind of actually one of the precipitating factors of

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Speaker 1: that is that, like in the weeks before the racist riots,

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Speaker 1: some like local white preachers and stuff had started getting

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Speaker 1: very very angry about the fact that white people were

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Speaker 1: starting to hang out with black people in parts of

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Speaker 1: town and like developing friendships and like using it like

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Speaker 1: and that was like they were like, this has to stop. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like the weird part of like the Venn diagram

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Speaker 1: of like racism and capitalism and just normal friendship to

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Speaker 1: where you're like, I don't know, this restaurant is just

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Speaker 1: it's good food. So I came down here. Yeah they're

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Speaker 1: way better at Yeah, yeah, foods better. It turns out,

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Speaker 1: contrary to what my uncle Dave told me, that's a

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Speaker 1: nice lady, that's a nice food that works here. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. It's kind of cool. It's good food, it's

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Speaker 1: good company. I don't understand the problem. You know. I'm

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Speaker 1: starting to thank racism now either, right, Cole. I'm starting

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Speaker 1: to think maybe we benefit from having these folks in

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Speaker 1: our community. Oh now, now, now we're time to shoot.

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Speaker 1: I guess so. Yeah. So. In the years after World

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Speaker 1: War Two, large numbers of veterans of both races had

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Speaker 1: come back to Tulsa and armed themselves in fear of

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Speaker 1: escalating interracial tensions. In Muskogee in nineteen sixteen, and armed

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Speaker 1: black crowd had stopped a lynching in May of nineteen

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Speaker 1: twenty one. Prior to the Big Racist Riot, an armed

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Speaker 1: group of black citizens had again stopped the lynching of

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Speaker 1: a black man for an alleged rape. Now, about of

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Speaker 1: lynchings of black men nationwide were justified because the crowd

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Speaker 1: accused the black man of rape or sexual assault in

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Speaker 1: some way. Now, only about two percent of incarcerated black

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Speaker 1: people nationwide head were actually convicted of rape. So we

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Speaker 1: can assume that the vast majority of these lynchings um

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Speaker 1: were unjust right um because the anyway. What occurred in

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Speaker 1: Tulsa later in May nine reinforces this suggestion. On Monday,

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Speaker 1: MA young black man named Dick Rowland gotten to an

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Speaker 1: elevator that also contained a young white woman. We will

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Speaker 1: never know exactly what happened. The most common story here

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Speaker 1: is that he likely tripped and bumped into her, and

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Speaker 1: she freaked out and the police were called. There's a

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Speaker 1: bunch of different stories around this. Nobody knows what happened.

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Speaker 1: But white black guy walks into an elevator with a

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Speaker 1: white woman. White woman screams, black guy runs away. He

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Speaker 1: gets tracked down and arrested by two officers, one of

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Speaker 1: whom was black. And these men were sheriff's deputies. So

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Speaker 1: Dick wound up in the care of the sheriff's office.

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Speaker 1: And the sheriff was a guy named Williard McCullough. He'd

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Speaker 1: gotten his job as a result of the lynching of

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Speaker 1: that white guy a year earlier, which his predecessor had

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Speaker 1: let happened, and Williard didn't want to make the same mistake.

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Speaker 1: So a crowd of angry white folks formed outside the jail,

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Speaker 1: which is pretty much standard procedure in Oklahoma when a

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Speaker 1: black man was accused of this kind of crime. The

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Speaker 1: police chief and again there's a police chief, and there's

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Speaker 1: a sheriff. The police chief, a guy named Gustafson, warned

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Speaker 1: the sheriff to take Rowland out of town. The sheriff refused,

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Speaker 1: arguing that the kid was safer in jail than in

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Speaker 1: an open car, and he may have been right about that.

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Speaker 1: The police chief felt that moving him out of town

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Speaker 1: would disperse the crowd, and he may have been right

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Speaker 1: about that. Um, we don't know exactly how it started,

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Speaker 1: but you know, basically, a black crowd with a lot

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Speaker 1: of guns showed up next to the white crowd who

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Speaker 1: had a lot of guns, and at some point there

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Speaker 1: was a struggle between an armed black guy and a

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Speaker 1: white guy, and the black fella's gun went off or

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Speaker 1: he fired it again, we don't know. But it turned

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Speaker 1: into a giant, fucking mob of of white writers gutting

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Speaker 1: down black people, black people shooting back in self defense.

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Speaker 1: And it will continue to talk about how it gets worse.

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Speaker 1: This is not an episode about the burning of Black

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Speaker 1: Wall Street. We will have to cover that in more

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Speaker 1: detail one of these days. Yeah, there are a couple

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Speaker 1: of points I should make. Um, I will say this

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Speaker 1: before you get to this point, like there's an interesting

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Speaker 1: thing that happened there all the way to Emmett Till

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Speaker 1: and to like, um, this this particular moment is like

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Speaker 1: just this idea of like weaponizing the white woman, you know,

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Speaker 1: and um, in a in a in it's just this

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Speaker 1: weird mix of just how social and supremacy and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that works where it's like you can use her fear,

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Speaker 1: you know that was implanted in her, you know what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying, uh, as an excuse to carry out violence

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Speaker 1: towards black men, right, and play the whole damsel and

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Speaker 1: distress thing, you know what I'm saying, And then them

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Speaker 1: being their own white women having their own versions of oppression,

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Speaker 1: right and misogyny, being like, well, this is a way

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Speaker 1: to get these men to do something for me, like

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Speaker 1: a position of power which evolves into the Karen's you

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Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. But it's just essentially like just

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Speaker 1: you're you're It's almost like yo, your oppressor has weaponized you,

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Speaker 1: and now you've become that, you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: So just the like the awareness of just that a

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Speaker 1: mind scramble that which is it's like I said, it's

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Speaker 1: your own unique thing. Just this idea like the voice

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Speaker 1: of the white woman, you know that is like there's

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Speaker 1: there's history there, like Karen, don't come out of nowhere.

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Speaker 1: And but Karen, don't understand that you're being leveraged, you

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Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. To carry out voices of of

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Speaker 1: of violence, and then now it's almost like now you're

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Speaker 1: participating in that same violence, you know what I'm saying,

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Speaker 1: So like, I don't know. It's just such an interesting thing,

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Speaker 1: like how interlocking systems of oppression work, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean, and like and how it all like keeps

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Speaker 1: power in the same place, interlocking system That's a really

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Speaker 1: important term, um because I do think there is a

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Speaker 1: tendency and a lot of groups to like, Oh, no,

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Speaker 1: racism is rooted in capitalism. Racism is rooted in you know, religion,

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Speaker 1: Racism is readed in class. Racism rooted this or that

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Speaker 1: racism is rooted has a lot of roots. It's less

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Speaker 1: it's like a hedgerow. That's why it's so hard to like,

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Speaker 1: you had dynamite like hedgerows with these gigantics sometimes centuries old,

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Speaker 1: like huge fucking plant walls that existed in the exists

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Speaker 1: in a bunch of places, specifically like in France during

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Speaker 1: World War Two. They were used as like to stop tanks.

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Speaker 1: And the only way to get rid of a fucking hedgerow,

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Speaker 1: because there's so many roots and they're so deep and

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Speaker 1: so tough, is to fucking dynamite it like up right,

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Speaker 1: yeah yeah. So again, this is not an episode about

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Speaker 1: the burning up Black Wall Street and Tulsa, but there

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Speaker 1: are a couple of points I should make about Tulsa

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Speaker 1: in this period. Uh, it was unusual for having a

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Speaker 1: large organized black community that controlled a really sizeable section

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Speaker 1: of town Greenwood, um and that you know black Wall

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Speaker 1: Street is it was called, had its own banks, its

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Speaker 1: own theaters, a vibrant business community, good schools, and this

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Speaker 1: relative prosperity was really unusual for black communities in the South,

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Speaker 1: which is why it was called black Wall Street. Another

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Speaker 1: thing I should note is what historian Carol Anderson wrote

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Speaker 1: in her book White Rage quote the trigger for white

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Speaker 1: rage inevitably is black advancement. It is not the mirror

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Speaker 1: presence of black people that is the problem. Rather, it

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Speaker 1: is blackness with ambition, with drive, with purpose, with aspirations,

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Speaker 1: and with demands for full and equal citizenship. So powerful, man, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's powerful. Yeah. Yeah. The comedian clip that would I

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Speaker 1: Forget Home his name that was going around that where

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Speaker 1: where he was just like, look, man, we're asking for

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Speaker 1: the bare minimum. Like even the civil rights movement that

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Speaker 1: wasn't even equal rights were just like just just civil Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, just just basically I'm just saying black lives matter. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like not like they're not I'm not saying they're in important.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying they matter more than your It's just

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Speaker 1: just just matter, you know. So, like you said, like

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Speaker 1: just and and and the ambition of black America sparked

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Speaker 1: so much rage Michael Chase Special Yeah, yeah, yeah, and

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Speaker 1: that's yeah. So two large mobs gather at the courthouse again,

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Speaker 1: one white, one black. The white mob clearly wanted to

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Speaker 1: just murder Roland, who was the kid who you know

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Speaker 1: got in trouble. Uh. And you know, they were in

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Speaker 1: the mood to burn down the courthouse if the cops

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Speaker 1: tried to stop them. The black mob obviously wanted to

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Speaker 1: save their guy. Um. And this was a tricky situation

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Speaker 1: for the police, particularly since two weeks earlier, the state

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Speaker 1: Attorney General had finished an investigation that described the Tulsa

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Speaker 1: police as corrupt, poorly lead, and so poorly equipped that

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Speaker 1: they had to borrow cars from their civilian friends to

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Speaker 1: get to crime scenes they were hitching rides to like

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Speaker 1: not a great police force. So so funny the over

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Speaker 1: when this all are ups into violence. The overall response

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Speaker 1: of Tulsa's police to the massacre followed like kind of

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Speaker 1: perfectly encapsulates the different ways US cops responded to lynching. Overall,

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Speaker 1: Sheriff McCullough seems to have been probably kind of your

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Speaker 1: best case scenario for a white cop in this period.

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Speaker 1: He had black deputies. He seems to have listened to

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Speaker 1: their advice, and he basically spent the riot barricaded in

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Speaker 1: the jail defending Roland. You know, his black prisoner um

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Speaker 1: so hard to I'm not gonna call him a great

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Speaker 1: dude or like particularly woken anything, but like does broadly

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Speaker 1: what you'd consider to be the right thing here. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: the police chief, Gaustabson was pretty close to the worst

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Speaker 1: case scenario. Before the riot even started. He looked out

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Speaker 1: at a huge crowd of armed and angry white people

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Speaker 1: an a much smaller crowd of armed black people, and

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Speaker 1: he called the National Guard to ask for their help

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Speaker 1: to quote clear the streets of negros So police chief

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Speaker 1: not the same as the sheriff here. Um. Now, one

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Speaker 1: of the first things that happened after the riot was

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Speaker 1: that large numbers of angry white dudes gathered outside of

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Speaker 1: the National Guard armory to demand guns. The National Guard

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Speaker 1: was like, that's not how this works. You can't get

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Speaker 1: We do have some stars. We don't just hand out

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Speaker 1: guns to crowds. Dude, why can't somebody be that guy? Like,

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Speaker 1: why can't we interview that guy? When they got to

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Speaker 1: the door and him being like, nah, Nona, keep what

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Speaker 1: are you talking about? What are you talking about? So

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Speaker 1: this crowd, which included a number of uniformed police officers,

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Speaker 1: went over to a local sporting goods store. This particular

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Speaker 1: store sold ammunition to the police department, so the cops

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Speaker 1: in the crowd knew that it was a good place

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Speaker 1: to go to get guns and ammo. They broke in

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Speaker 1: and looted it so that they could go murder black people.

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Speaker 1: As the looting and killing worsened, the police chief called

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Speaker 1: in his entire department and began commissioning special deputies, some

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Speaker 1: four hundred random white dudes who were given guns and

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Speaker 1: legal authority by the police to go commit acts of

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Speaker 1: horrific violence. By dawn the next day, the black community

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Speaker 1: of Tulsa had pulled back to defend Greenwood, their neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: A massive army of angry white dudes, described in media

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Speaker 1: at the time as a force of citizens, police and

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Speaker 1: members of the National Guard, numbering fifteen hundred, invaded Black

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Speaker 1: Wall Street from two directions. They took unarmed black people

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Speaker 1: into protective custody. They killed anyone who resisted. Once again,

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Speaker 1: what had started as white violence had been portrayed by

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Speaker 1: authorities as a Negro uprising, which is how like the

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Speaker 1: local press covered it. And now this uprising was being squashed.

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Speaker 1: The last resistance in Greenwood happened at the newly built

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Speaker 1: Mountain Zion Baptist Church when the armed black men barricaded

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Speaker 1: inside refused to leave, the police and the guardsmen burned

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Speaker 1: it down. The Tulsa Police department also enlisted the help

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Speaker 1: of six J and four biplane aircraft. They claimed these

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Speaker 1: were four reconnaissance purposes, but there is evidence that the

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Speaker 1: planes were used to fire bomb and stray civilians in Greenwood.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I'm gonna quote now from Tulsa World and

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Speaker 1: a write up of the riot quote. Tulsa police also

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Speaker 1: seemed to have been involved in the mayhem. More than

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Speaker 1: one witness identified officers, usually out of uniform, among the arsonists. V. B. Bostick,

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Speaker 1: a black deputy sheriff was rousted from his home by

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Speaker 1: a white traffic officer named Pittman, who then joined in

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Speaker 1: setting fire to Bostis House. I. J. Buck, a white

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Speaker 1: Greenwood property owner, set of policemen turned him aside. When

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Speaker 1: Buck tried to save one of his buildings, he said,

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Speaker 1: you ain't got no business building buildings for negroes. Buck

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Speaker 1: testified in court some three black men, women and children

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Speaker 1: were murdered during the Tulsa racist riot. We will never know.

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Speaker 1: They are currently in the process of excavating and what

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Speaker 1: they think might be a mass grave in Tulsa. Um,

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Speaker 1: but we will never know how many people died. Probably

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Speaker 1: hopefully we'll get a better account soon. But yeah, and

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Speaker 1: like just try to like try to get your brain

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Speaker 1: around the humanity of the moment. Like you're just you're

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Speaker 1: running barbershop, you at church, and a US military plane,

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Speaker 1: well owned country, you know what I'm saying, Like a

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Speaker 1: civilian plane that the police that the police were had

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Speaker 1: common deered. Yeah, okay, yes, a billion playing at the

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Speaker 1: police common deer. Like it's just just a like you

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Speaker 1: just bombed my church. Yeah, Like just try to like

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Speaker 1: get your brain around net you know. Yeah, yep, yep.

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Speaker 1: Um yeah, it's pretty yeah, like this is sad, yeah

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Speaker 1: yeah yeah. And I wonder how many listeners, uh of

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Speaker 1: all races have never heard this, you know what I'm saying, Like,

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Speaker 1: that's the part that blow Mama's black people that don't notice,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's pretty fucking wild. Um. And you know,

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Speaker 1: there there are two cases that I'm aware of of

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Speaker 1: air power bombing, like of of people on American soil

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Speaker 1: being bombed by armed airplanes prior to uh December seventh,

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Speaker 1: ninety attack on Pearl Harbor. And it is the attack

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Speaker 1: on Black Wall Street and the attack on the white

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Speaker 1: you well no, actually not just white, um, largely white,

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Speaker 1: but definitely mixed race union miners in Blair Mountain during

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Speaker 1: the the Union uprising there they were also bombed and

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Speaker 1: had gas bombs dropped on them too. So those are

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Speaker 1: the two cases before fucking Pearl Harbor that air power

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Speaker 1: was used to kill Americans. Um yeah, by Americans. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: by Americans. Sure yeah um so yeah. In the months

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Speaker 1: that followed the racist riot in Tulsa, Tulsa became the

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Speaker 1: nexus of KKK organizing in the state. There's a debate

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Speaker 1: about how much role they played in an actually the

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Speaker 1: racist riot. It was probably not super huge, but the

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Speaker 1: clan Tulsa becomes like the fucking headquarters of the Oklahoma

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Speaker 1: Ku Klux Klan in the wake of the racist riot,

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Speaker 1: and before much longer, Tulsa got a new clan backed sheriff,

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Speaker 1: a claned back police chief, as did many cities in Oklahoma.

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Speaker 1: Clan members of the city council, and of course the

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Speaker 1: clan bought brought with it violence not just against black people,

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Speaker 1: but against Catholic and Jewish Oklahoma's The governor of Oklahoma

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Speaker 1: eventually had to bring the National Guard in again to

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Speaker 1: deal with the Ku Klux Klan. So yeah, yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: yeah Tulsa. Uh and again like again, it goes to

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Speaker 1: like the like God, the clans all over the place,

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Speaker 1: Like why how all of a sudden, why are we

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Speaker 1: met at Catholic and Jews? Like when when did day

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Speaker 1: become a card of the conversation like that, even just

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Speaker 1: even you hearing even hearing you say, it makes sense

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Speaker 1: to me that the clan is like, Yo, it's cracking

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Speaker 1: over here. We'll go over here and get it, get it,

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Speaker 1: get it cracking. Let's take over the city. And while

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Speaker 1: we're at it, you know the Catholics, like the Catholics. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what the hell that got to do with anything? You know? Yep, yeah, yep.

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Speaker 1: Uh so lynching and again I think really one of

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Speaker 1: the ways to look at the racist right and told

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Speaker 1: you this is a mass a mass lynching. Yeah, they

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Speaker 1: lynched the entirety of Black Wall Street because they were angry.

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Speaker 1: You know. The that young woman screaming was the excuse,

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Speaker 1: but it was anger over black success in organization. And

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Speaker 1: there's stories of like black or white people looting Greenwood

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00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 1: after they you know, arrested all of the black people

425
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 1: in town and as they were burning it down and

426
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 1: coming out of black houses with like furniture and property

427
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: and like angrily yelling like these inwards have nicer things

428
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 1: than a lot of white people. Like that. That was

429
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 1: a big part of why they did the um yep.

430
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 1: So like we want segregation, okay, cool, we don't want

431
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 1: you to use our money, okay cool. Damn y'all segregated

432
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 1: and using your own money. I guess we'll kill you.

433
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 1: I guess I hate that, man. What do you want?

434
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty clear what they want. Yeah, yeah,

435
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 1: um lynch Ng's peak was probably in the eighteen nineties,

436
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,360
Speaker 1: but it continued to be a massive problem. I mean

437
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: throughout the nineteen hundreds. Of the nineteen twenties were a

438
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 1: pretty bad time for lynching. Most historians will tell you

439
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 1: that lynching is best seen as a sort of non

440
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,919
Speaker 1: state uh auxiliary to Jim Crow, the civilian side of

441
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 1: the enforcement of white supremacist laws. When the law fell

442
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: short in the eyes of racists, it was time for

443
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 1: a massive mob spectacle. Lynching generally was not just about murder.

444
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 1: Victims were usually tortured to extract confessions um and the

445
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 1: crowd generally took souvenirs and posed with the body of

446
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,040
Speaker 1: the murdered black person. These were often family gatherings that

447
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: we're announced on the radio. Now I'm gonna quote picnics. Yeah,

448
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: picnics very kind. Yeah, go ahead and finish in your brain.

449
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say, just finished. What you think picnic?

450
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: What the end of that? What that's probably your short for? Yeah, okay,

451
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: go on. I'm gonna quote next from a book that

452
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: will be a major source for this part of the episode,

453
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 1: The Color of the Third Degree by Sylvan peder Meyer,

454
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 1: and he writes quote during the nineteen tens, into a

455
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: greater degree from nineteen twenty on, where the white elite

456
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 1: of the South voiced growing criticism of the practice of lending.

457
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,360
Speaker 1: This changed attitude was the result of the economic modernization

458
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,719
Speaker 1: taking place in the region, which was accompanied by efforts

459
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 1: to bolster the business and political ties between the southern

460
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,399
Speaker 1: and northern states, along with an increasing orientation among the

461
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 1: Southern white middle and upper classes towards the cultural values

462
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 1: of the North. This led in nineteen thirty to the

463
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 1: establishment of the Association of Southern Women for the Prevention

464
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: of Lynching a s w P l or as Whipple.

465
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: Under the leadership at Jesse Daniel Lames. These white women

466
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: activists work prime merrily in church circles and their tireless

467
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: work against lynching. These women disputed the traditional rationalization of

468
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 1: this form of violence as a means of protecting white women,

469
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: and argued that white men were using the code of

470
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: chivalry merely as a pretext to justify violence against African Americans. Yeah, yeah,

471
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,719
Speaker 1: good work, good ally ship, or whatever you wanna call it. Uh.

472
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: Nineteen twenty was actually the first year in which more

473
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 1: lynchings were averted by law enforcement than carried out between

474
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty and ninety two, two hundred and ninety lynchings

475
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 1: were stopped by police. The activism of groups like as

476
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 1: Whipple helped helped reduced lynching through the nineteen twenties, and

477
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: while it saw an upswing during the Great Depression, the

478
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: number of lynchings dropped precipitously by the end of the

479
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties and for most of the last few decades,

480
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: the anti lynching campaigns were seen as a major feather

481
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 1: in the cap of u s law enforcement. An example

482
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 1: about the police kind of modernizing and reforming and of

483
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: Southern cops rising to the occasion to protect black people

484
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: from violence. This is wildly inaccurate. Um Niedermeyer argues with

485
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: exhaustive documentation that rather than protecting black people from murder quote,

486
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: law enforcement authorities in the South were generally taking initiatives

487
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: to protect black suspects from being seized by lynch mobs. Now.

488
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 1: The way they did this was by loading suspects up

489
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: into police cars, which were a new thing then and

490
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 1: allowed for faster transport, and taking them away to distant jails.

491
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 1: Law enforcement did sometimes use violence and even call out

492
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: malicious to disperse lynch mobs, But the anger that had

493
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: spawned those mobs still had to be sated, and police

494
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 1: say did it by making damn certain that black suspects

495
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: got what those mobs thought they deserved, a swift and

496
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 1: violent death. Quote. In his study of the state of Kentucky,

497
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 1: historian George Wright comes to the conclusion that the number

498
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: of executions of blacks carried out during the first decades

499
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: of the twentieth century continually rose, while the number of

500
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: lynch ngs steadily declined during the same period. Likewise, the

501
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: findings of the political scientists James W. Clark show a

502
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 1: clear correlation in the nineteen twenties and thirties between the

503
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: declining lynch violence and the growing number of convicted African

504
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 1: American offenders who were executed by state authorities. The available

505
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 1: statistical data on the number of executions carried out in

506
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: the United States between nineteen thirty and nineteen seventy also

507
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: suggests the dwindling number of lynchings was tied to the

508
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 1: growing use of the death penalty. Although there is no

509
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: conclusive evidence to support the theory that lynching violence was

510
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 1: gradually replaced by the death penalty, it can be said

511
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 1: that the legal system in the South increasingly assumed the

512
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: function of maintaining social control over the black population during

513
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: the early twentieth century. See that is dizzying. YEA, hope

514
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: y'all caught it. It's so dizzy, it's it's like because

515
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: to to try to sort that out is to go,

516
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 1: you're you're off celter because like you said, you think,

517
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: oh it's cool man, maybe they're maybe these people are evolving,

518
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: and they're like, no, this is I'm They're just you

519
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: just want control of Yo County and you just like, So,

520
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: the point is, I can't be having these I can't

521
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: be having the city think they got more power than

522
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: me because I'm the law. So but they're like, but

523
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: I feel you. You know what I'm saying, Like Loki,

524
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: I feel you. I'm just saying, you don't get to

525
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: tell me what to do. So when so, from the

526
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: black perspective, do I can I make any distinction between

527
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,239
Speaker 1: that mob and this jail? No? Because I still end

528
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: up dead, you know what I'm saying. So, and then

529
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: when we say and then, like you said, all the

530
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: signs we're talking about the other ones, that mass incarceration

531
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: and the deputy and the law for it's just it's

532
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: the same disease. This is what we're trying to say,

533
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: and here is right in your history. It's same ease.

534
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: This is why we don't make no distinction. You know

535
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. This is why we keep saying the

536
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: orchards bad, orchards bad sayings. Apples, Yes, they're piss apples.

537
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: You know. You keep going away individual piss apples, hoping

538
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: and then trying to point at one. It ain't got pissed,

539
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: And I'm going what it's the yes, Oh you know

540
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: what's not? An apple filled with urine? First of all,

541
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: I've never heard of the term piss apple. But that's

542
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: great anyway. But I hope these products and services are

543
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: not because they are not. They are not. That's our

544
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: one line for advertisers, No apples filled with urine. This

545
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: is Roxande Gay, host of the Roxande Gay Agenda the

546
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: Bad Room, in his podcast of Your Dreams. Now, what

547
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: is the Roxanne Gay Agenda, you might ask, Well, it's

548
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: a podcast where I'm going to speak my mind about

549
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 1: what's on my mind, and that could be anything. Every week,

550
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: I will be in conversation with an interesting person who

551
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: has something to say, We're going to talk about feminism, race, writing,

552
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 1: in book, some art, food, pop culture, and yes, politics.

553
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: I started show with a recommendation. Really, I'm just going

554
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: to share with you a movie or a book, or

555
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: maybe some music or a comedy set, something that I

556
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: really want you to be aware of and maybe engage

557
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: with as well. Listen to the Luminary original podcast, The

558
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: Roxanne Gay Agenda, The Bad Feminist Podcast of Your Dreams,

559
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: every Tuesday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

560
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Tanya Sam, host

561
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: of the Money Moves Podcast powered by Greenwood. This daily

562
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: podcast will help give you the keys to the Kingdom

563
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,959
Speaker 1: of financial stability, wealth and abundance with celebrity guests like

564
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Speaker 1: Rick Ross, Amanda Sille's, Angela Ye, Roland Martin, JB. Smooth,

565
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 1: and Terrell Owens. Tune in to learn how to turn

566
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: liabilities into assets and make your money move up and

567
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: boy body. Subscribe to The Money Moves Podcast powered by

568
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: Greenland on the I Heart Radio app or ever you

569
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: get your podcasts, and make sure you leave a review. Hi.

570
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: I'm Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're the

571
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: hosts of the science podcast Stuff to Blow Your Mind,

572
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 1: where every week we get to explore some of the

573
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: weirdest questions in the universe, like if sci fi teleportation

574
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: was possible, how would it square with the multitudes of

575
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: organisms that inhabit our human bodies? Can we find evidence

576
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: of emotions in animals like bees, ants, and crayfish? How

577
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: would an interplanetary civilization function just free will exist? Stuff

578
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind examines neurological quandaries, cosmic mysteries, evolutionary marvels,

579
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: and the wonders of techno history. Basically, this show is

580
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: the altar where we worship the weirdness of reality. If

581
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: anybody ever told you you ask the weirdest questions, it

582
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: is time to come join us in the place where

583
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: you belong. The Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast new

584
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,719
Speaker 1: episodes publish every Tuesday and Thursday, with bonus episodes on Saturdays.

585
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: Listen to Stuff to Blow Your Mind on the I

586
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

587
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 1: We're back, all right, um cool, uh all right, So

588
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 1: when you really look at it through a gimlet eye,

589
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: the inevitable conclusion one comes to in all of this

590
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: um is. You know, while police often enabled violence, you

591
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: know of the Clan in the late eight hundreds, in

592
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds, and with the race riots in

593
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen, you know, Tulsa. While police often enabled such

594
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: things on an individual level, collectively, they were more than

595
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: anything else powerless to stop this violence. Um. Although you

596
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: could argue that didn't tryal that hard. Um, But they

597
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: weren't really set up to stop that violence either. And

598
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: to both the state and the kind of people who

599
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: tend to become police officers, that lack of control over

600
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: the mob was worse for them than whatever violence the

601
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: mob was committing. Often white sheriffs and police chiefs were

602
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 1: absolutely fine with killing black people. Would bug them? Was

603
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: the disorder? Um, because power people. In nineteen thirty three,

604
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: a sociologist with the the just tremendously unfortunate name of

605
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: Arthur Raper, which, oh, that's a rough one to dry

606
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: out of the names. Arthur Raper published a study that

607
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 1: suggested lynchings were most often permitted by making it clear

608
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: to the mob that the alleged offender would be quickly

609
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: convicted and punished. Southern politicians came to rely on the

610
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: death penalty is an easy way to appease the mob

611
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: and have avoid uncivilized violence. Local journalists supported the state

612
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: and it's massively increased rate of executions, seeing them as

613
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: a victory for law and order. Yo, when I was

614
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: so nice to teach high school, I to high school

615
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 1: for a couple of years at ninth graders. And one

616
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: time we went on this field trip, uh to Lacma

617
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,879
Speaker 1: to the Museum of um you know, the museum in

618
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: in On Libreya. And so it's four teachers to a

619
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: hundred in fourteen year old, right, So I had me

620
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: and another teacher had control a half of them. So

621
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 1: I got seventy five freshmen. Right, We're walking by the

622
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: park and there's a dude selling like inflatable toys, so

623
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: like hammers and dolls and such like this. And at

624
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: this point it's seventy five of y'all and two of us.

625
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: They're gonna the kids are gonna beat each other with it.

626
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: There's no you're not gonna stop these freshmen from hurting

627
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 1: each other with these inflatable hammers. So my thought was, Okay,

628
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,839
Speaker 1: if they're gonna do it, they're gonna do it. You're

629
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: you're freshman, and I'm not gonna stop you and Loki,

630
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: it seems kind of fun. I'm not gonna lie to you.

631
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: It seems kind of fun. So what I did was

632
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,359
Speaker 1: I broke them up into their home rooms, right and

633
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: made them be feuding clans. So I made them send

634
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 1: gladiators from their home room to the middle for the

635
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: purpose of as the greatest teacher ever, for the purpose

636
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: of being able to make sure that no one gets

637
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:11,439
Speaker 1: actually injured. Right. So, because the point is the same

638
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: thing that this sheriff is saying, I just need to

639
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: maintain order, right of course, I don't want you to

640
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 1: beat each other, and well, I just don't want to

641
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 1: lose control. It's really the point. The point is I

642
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,399
Speaker 1: don't want to lose control because your mom are gonna

643
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: kill me if I lose one of y'all, right, and

644
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: I'm probably gonna lose my job. So I don't want

645
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 1: to lose control. But y'all gonna beat each other. So

646
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,879
Speaker 1: in my mind, I'm like, at least I can make

647
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 1: sure that everyone's engaged, and I can then it's not

648
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 1: everybody beating each other, but you all sent bladd ear

649
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,839
Speaker 1: is one of the funniest things I really got reprimanded

650
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 1: by the vice principle. But then the principal was like,

651
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: you're brilliant. Yeah, it's like that again, uhty problematic copy

652
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: in England, who was like, well, they were going to

653
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 1: throw the statue in the river and we could either

654
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 1: pull it out of the river later and put it back,

655
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: or we could beat a bunch of our citizens for

656
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: throwing a statue in the river. And that seemed like

657
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:16,720
Speaker 1: the wrong call, you know, like yeah, yeah, um yeah.

658
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,399
Speaker 1: This also dovetails into I won't go onto a long

659
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,839
Speaker 1: rant about my ideas for school reform, but why all

660
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 1: children should be forced to carry claw hammers at all

661
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 1: times in public schools, um and private schools for that matter,

662
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 1: and all teachers to everybody should have a real big hammer. Um,

663
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,919
Speaker 1: that's very important to me for a variety of reasons. Yeah,

664
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: I'm very pro hammer. I don't get into that. I

665
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: just found I just found the first thing we disagree on.

666
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,879
Speaker 1: There'd be a lot less statues, all kinds of statues,

667
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: but a lot less of them. It would be a

668
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: great lesson on like pulleys and physics. Though, I'll tell

669
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: you that. Like we was like, all right, guys, this

670
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: was this, this is the freshman second Semester project has

671
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: come up with the best pulley system to tear down

672
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 1: a Confederate statute. Yeah, the person that could do it

673
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: with the where the smallest little person in my room

674
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 1: is able to pull down this whole statute. That person

675
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 1: get to a yeah, you do you pulled? You have

676
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 1: the little kids pulled on the statue. And then you're like,

677
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: and this is why Aliens didn't build the pyramids. Yes,

678
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: you've figured this out, and so did the Egyptians. Yea,

679
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: so did the Egyptians. Alright, alright, alright, we gotta get

680
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: back to the subject. So in nine yeah, Arthur Raper

681
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 1: published a study again like yeah, basically that the Southern

682
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: politicians came to rely on the death penalty is a

683
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,399
Speaker 1: way to appease the mob and avoid uncivilized violence. Now,

684
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: you can't easily get a swift conviction if you have

685
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 1: a real trial. Obviously, remember the data we have suggests

686
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:47,879
Speaker 1: that the vast majority of black people targeted by lynch

687
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: mobs were innocent of any serious crime. Uh, if this

688
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,479
Speaker 1: ship went to court, even a crooked court, it would

689
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,800
Speaker 1: take time. And during that time, like like if it

690
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,439
Speaker 1: if you were if you were doing this the way

691
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: police are supposed to hand endle cases like this. It

692
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,959
Speaker 1: would take a lot of time and it might be yeah,

693
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: it might be off. And it's way easier if you

694
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,919
Speaker 1: go into court with a confession, because then you're are like, well,

695
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 1: he confessed. Uh So, police in this time focused on

696
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 1: securing confessions because a suspect who confesses isn't really a

697
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: suspect anymore. During the early nineteen hundreds, the a CP

698
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 1: documented cases of forced confessions in Southern States. These were

699
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 1: a tiny fraction of the total number of cases, which

700
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 1: numbered in the hundreds of the thousands. The CPS resources

701
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: were limited, and they were picking out specific cases that

702
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: they were challenging in courts. These were a percent of

703
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 1: what was going on um In three fourths of the

704
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 1: cases they documented, the black defendants alleged that they had

705
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 1: been tortured into confessing by the police. The vast majority

706
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 1: of these cases were either alleged murders or rapes. The

707
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,359
Speaker 1: color of the third degree goes into significant detail about

708
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: a number of cases that illustrate this transition. One I

709
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 1: want to highlight to you all is the case of

710
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 1: the murder of Raymond Stewart in ninety war Stewart was

711
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: a prominent white farmer and landowner, and he was found

712
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: dead in his home in Kemper County, Mississippi. There were

713
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 1: signs of a struggle. Almost as soon as the news

714
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: got out. Two hundred people gathered in front of his

715
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 1: home to look for the officers. Three young black men

716
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: were eventually arrested. A lynch mob form to go and

717
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: murder them, which prompted the local sheriff to call an

718
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,720
Speaker 1: e extra deputies and fortified the jail with machine guns

719
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: and tear gas grenades. The National Guard was almost called

720
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 1: in and a state of emergency was declared in order

721
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,439
Speaker 1: to preempt white mob violence. The sheriff's department immediately set

722
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: to torturing the absolute ship out of these three kids.

723
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: Confessions were quickly obtained, but when the case actually went

724
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,240
Speaker 1: to court, one of the young defendants began to complain

725
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,919
Speaker 1: that his confession had been forced out of him. Near

726
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 1: deer Meyer writes, quote Brown, who was this one of

727
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 1: these kids, testified that after his arrest, he had been

728
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,720
Speaker 1: subjected to violent treatment, above all by Deputy sheriff Cliff

729
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 1: Dial to force him to admit the crime. He told

730
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: me to come on out here that he had to heard.

731
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: I told I killed Mr Raymond. I come out of

732
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 1: the jail house and I said, I declare I didn't

733
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 1: kill Mr Raymond. He said, come on here and pull

734
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 1: your clothes off. I'm gonna get you. I said to

735
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 1: the last that I didn't kill him. There was two

736
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: more fellows about like that there, and they was whipping me.

737
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 1: They had me behind a cross chairs kind of like that.

738
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: I said I didn't kill him. They said to put

739
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 1: him on again, and they hit me so hard. I

740
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 1: had to say yes, sir. Mr Cliff Dial said give

741
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 1: the strap to me, I will get it. He took

742
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 1: it and he had two buckles on the end. They

743
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: stripped me naked and bit me over a chair and

744
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 1: I just had to say it. I couldn't help it.

745
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 1: As the court transcript shows, Brown supported his testimony by

746
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: pointing to the injuries from the blows to his body.

747
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 1: Question they whipped you hard there? Answer yes, sir, I

748
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 1: will show you there are places all the way up.

749
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 1: Question did you bleed any? Answer? Did I bleed? I

750
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,399
Speaker 1: sure did. Brown testified that after Dial had forced him

751
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 1: to confess, he threatened him with additional beatings if he

752
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 1: were canted his statement. Furthermore, he emphatically maintained that he

753
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,879
Speaker 1: did not kill Raymond Stewart. If I die right now,

754
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: I am going to say it. I ain't never harmed

755
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 1: Mr Raymond in my life. If they want, they can

756
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: kill me because I said that, but I ain't never

757
00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:00,879
Speaker 1: harmed Mr Raymond. Afterward, Henry Sheild was called to the

758
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 1: next to the witness stand. He was another one of

759
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: the boys arrested. He testified that after his arrest, he

760
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,800
Speaker 1: had been whipped by Deputy Sheriff Cliff Dial in the

761
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 1: murder In jail. Shields said that due to the relentless whipping,

762
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 1: he eventually gave a false confession and declared that he

763
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 1: had a hand in Stuart's murder. Mr Cliff Dial and

764
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: then come back that evening and whipped me first. I

765
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 1: tried to tell the truth, but he wouldn't let me.

766
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 1: He said, no, you ain't told the truth, and I

767
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 1: tried to stick to it. He whipped me so hard

768
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 1: I had to tell him something. Ellington, who was the

769
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: third boy who was forced subsequently to the stand, also

770
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 1: testified that he was innocent and had been forced to confess.

771
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: He stated that shortly after word of Stuart's murder started

772
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 1: making the rounds. He was seized by a mob of

773
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: roughly twenty people, several of whom were employees of the sheriff,

774
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 1: including the previously mentioned Cliff Dial. He said that the

775
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 1: men had tied him to a tree and whipped him.

776
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 1: He went on to say that a rope which had

777
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 1: been thrown over a tree limb, was then tied around

778
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 1: his neck and members of the mob pulled him up

779
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,240
Speaker 1: in the air twice to force him to divulge information

780
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: about the murder. Yeah, it's pretty bad, it's real real, Yeah,

781
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 1: you know, from a practical standpoint, like hey, you know, um,

782
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:08,319
Speaker 1: you know, rocket scientists shareff you know, if you beat me,

783
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 1: there's evidence, so I can go, Yeah, this right here,

784
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 1: that's that's his buckle. That's where that came from, this

785
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 1: rocket science. And then secondly, I think remember that the

786
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: To Catch a Murderer, the little series on Netflix. Remember

787
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 1: how like when they finally showed that interrogation of the

788
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 1: little dude that clearly was autistic, you know, and when

789
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: they bullied him into saying something just so they bullied

790
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: him into say it. Yeah, we'll talk about um that

791
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 1: in a bit because that there's yeah that ties into

792
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: this actually rather directly. Yeah, yeah, like this so yeah,

793
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 1: all that to say, like this isn't this is a

794
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 1: normal practice? Yeah if yeah, if you treated your domestic

795
00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: partner the way that police routinely treat people in Terry Asians,

796
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 1: they would have easy legal standing to get a restraining

797
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 1: order against you and take your guns away if you

798
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 1: own guns, Like it's emotional abuse. So, um, it's worth

799
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 1: noting that. Further on in their testimony, Uh, these boys

800
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 1: made statements to the effect that a great deal of

801
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 1: the local white population knew they were being tortured at

802
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: the jail. Now they've been specifically taken to a separate,

803
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,839
Speaker 1: geographically isolated jail on the other side of the state

804
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 1: line in order to hide the fact that they were

805
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 1: being tortured. Um. This was common behavior for police around

806
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 1: the country. But at the same time, it was important

807
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:34,919
Speaker 1: to the police that enough white people knew these black

808
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: prisoners were being tortured to stop mobs from burning down

809
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,760
Speaker 1: one of the jails. Under questioning. Officer Dial did eventually

810
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 1: admit to having beaten the boys. He said that it

811
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: was not too much for a negro, not as much

812
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: as I would have done if it was left to

813
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: me that statements. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and again it's people

814
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 1: can handle a lot. That's exactly what I'm getting into.

815
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: This is part of the very long standing trend in

816
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: in not just law enforcement, but white racism, the idea

817
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: that black people feel less pain than white people. It's,

818
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 1: for one thing, documented that black men and women are

819
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 1: prescribed lower doses of pain killers by doctors for the

820
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: exact same ailments as white people are prescribed higher doses.

821
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 1: And this is like a large Black doctors do this.

822
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: This is a largely unconscious thing. It's it's so deeply

823
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 1: woven into the fabric of our society, the idea that

824
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:30,879
Speaker 1: black people feel pain somehow less than white people. Yep, yeah,

825
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 1: I don't even maybe that's there, Yeah yeah, might have

826
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 1: something to do with police officers, for example, putting a

827
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: knee on one of their necks for eight minutes and

828
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: forty six seconds because you're soume, we're fine. Yeah now, yeah,

829
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 1: And you can draw a direct line from the whipping

830
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,319
Speaker 1: of slaves in the pre war South and like justifications

831
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: for why that wasn't cruel. It was the only way

832
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 1: they would learn, you know, they don't feel pain the same.

833
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 1: This is what you have to do. You can draw

834
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 1: a direct line from that to officer dials abuse to

835
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 1: the fact that, for example, today black and Hispanic people

836
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 1: are fifty like Leier in the United States to experience

837
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 1: non lethal use of force from police. Yeah, yep, all

838
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: tied together. Yeah yeah. Dial and his fellow officers insisted

839
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,359
Speaker 1: that despite the force used, all three black boys made

840
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: free and open confessions to the murder, and this convinced

841
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 1: the all white jerry. Part of white convinced the white

842
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: jerry is that a reverend who had been in the

843
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 1: jail at the time testified that they had given free confessions.

844
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 1: By the way, that reverend repeatedly referred to all of

845
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:38,240
Speaker 1: the boys as darkies. Um yeah, yeah, unbiased religious official there. Yeah.

846
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 1: And again I'm highlighting a single case because it is

847
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: important for you to know. But also this happened in

848
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 1: every state, particularly in the South and a lot of

849
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: parts of the North, on a regular basis. Most police officers,

850
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:56,320
Speaker 1: particularly in the South, had similar participated in similar things.

851
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 1: This was the norm. This was a common occurrence. Um yeah, yeah.

852
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: If they didn't participate like officer Dial, they were aware

853
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 1: of other officers doing it. That's probably more common than

854
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: than doing it, just because most people aren't comfortable with

855
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:20,280
Speaker 1: with carrying out random physical violence, even most police officers. Um,

856
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:24,879
Speaker 1: but they let it happen. Yeah, broadly supported it. Yeah. Yeah.

857
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:28,280
Speaker 1: The fear that's already striking in somebody, that's like, obviously

858
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,239
Speaker 1: the person you talk to is a sociopath, you know

859
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. So like the fear of being like, well,

860
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 1: I'm not going to get in his way because he

861
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 1: won't turn it on me. You know, this guy's crazy.

862
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: Look at him. Yeah, crazy, I mean, um, And of

863
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: course he's not crazy. Officer Dial, I have no doubt.

864
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 1: Um was completely in possession of his white right mind,

865
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 1: white mind, um, and not not any way mental real

866
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,800
Speaker 1: He was a He was enforcing white supremacy through violence

867
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 1: in a way that was effective and rational. Um. Yeah.

868
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 1: So the white jury, after a day and a half

869
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 1: of proceedings, voted to convict all three boys of murder

870
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,399
Speaker 1: and have them executed. And thankfully this was a case

871
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 1: where the CP managed to get involved in time, They

872
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 1: appealed and the lives of all three young men were saved.

873
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,800
Speaker 1: So as happy an ending as the story of torture

874
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: can have, Um, there's a there's a trial like right

875
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: before Brown versus Voard of Education that uh missed, missed

876
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 1: all the missed all the fame because of Brown versus

877
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 1: Vard of Education. When yeah, about the white jurors like

878
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: being able to, like the law of saying like I

879
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,479
Speaker 1: have a right to be you know, tried in front

880
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: of a jury of my peers. But it wasn't until

881
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 1: after this case because our documents only recognized two races.

882
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:44,439
Speaker 1: So so if this is a Latino dude, and that's

883
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:46,360
Speaker 1: that's what the case was. It was a Latino dude

884
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 1: who got in a bar fight with a Latino dude, right,

885
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 1: but according to the eyes of the constitution, Latinos are

886
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 1: white until this case. Right, So if you've got an

887
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 1: all white jury, they're like, but they're still looking at

888
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,879
Speaker 1: a Mexican dude and he's like, dude, like, these are

889
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 1: not my peers, Like and then they're going, what are

890
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: you talking about? You guys are both white people. It's like, no,

891
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:13,479
Speaker 1: where you can't you can't play it both ways, man,

892
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 1: Like you know what I'm saying. So, so what's interesting

893
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 1: about this case, like you said, is like there's clear evidence,

894
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 1: there's obvious evidence. They dude that did it said he

895
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 1: did it, and then the jury acquitted. You know what

896
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: I'm saying, Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And the case

897
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:37,800
Speaker 1: that I just related to you was only exceptional because

898
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: some version of justice was eventually done thanks to the

899
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 1: hard work of the end of a CP. Unknowable numbers

900
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 1: of black men and boys were tortured and executed without

901
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,439
Speaker 1: the end a CP ever coming to their aid. Um,

902
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 1: just because you know, that's not a criticism of the

903
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: end of a CP. The resources were limited, um, playing

904
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 1: whack a mole man like you can't be everywhere, you know. Yeah,

905
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:00,839
Speaker 1: And the FBI did not start to really look into

906
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:03,800
Speaker 1: the problem of torture enforced confessions by US law enforcement

907
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 1: until nineteen forty two. And the Bureau does again get

908
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:07,759
Speaker 1: a little bit of credit for intervening to try and

909
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 1: protect black Americans faster than any other wing of the

910
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 1: US government, But as near to Miyer notes, their efforts

911
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: were limited in scope and saw very limited success and

912
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 1: absolutely did not stop the problem or really arrested in

913
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 1: any major way. Some of this has to do with

914
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 1: the history of police torture, and this is where we

915
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:27,720
Speaker 1: get into stuff that's both white and black history, um

916
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 1: you know, in in a in a in a way

917
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 1: um or a history of at least police abuse of

918
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:34,280
Speaker 1: both white and black people for all of the eighteen hundreds.

919
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 1: In the first half of the twentieth century, it was

920
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 1: not illegal for the police in the United States to

921
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 1: torture people. Charges could be brought against the cops that

922
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,360
Speaker 1: they committed assaulter, battery, and breach of their regulations, but

923
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: that was as hard to prove as you might suspect.

924
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 1: Some states had laws to prohibit the use of violence

925
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 1: to force confessions, but that was not an across the

926
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 1: board sort of thing, near to Meyer notes quote as

927
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 1: investigative reports from that date. From this period reveal, however,

928
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 1: penalties were rarely imposed because district attorneys, duges, and jury

929
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 1: members were highly reluctant to limit the power and authority

930
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 1: of law enforcement officials. While the white press in the

931
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: South generally avoided using the term torture and it's reporting

932
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 1: on cases of police violence during interrogations, the term was

933
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 1: purposefully used by the black press to expose and announced

934
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 1: the violent abuse of African American suspects, often in a

935
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 1: bid to gain public support for the fledgling civil rights struggle.

936
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 1: A more common and prevalent term was the third degree,

937
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:25,800
Speaker 1: which was adopted as police jargon in the late nineteenth

938
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,919
Speaker 1: century and entered the general American vocabulary in the early

939
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: twentieth century. And I'm gonna guess most people know this term, right,

940
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: that's yeah, as I say, from the TV, from the choose,

941
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:40,759
Speaker 1: And what that means is I'm going to torture the

942
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 1: ship out of Yeah. Yeah, it's bad. Um yeah, so yeah,

943
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 1: And it is like it. It is a term that

944
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,840
Speaker 1: was used to justify police, to dress up police torture

945
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 1: something else. Torture sounds like a crime, giving them the

946
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,320
Speaker 1: third degree is something that like hard bitten but goodhearted,

947
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 1: dragnet type cop has to do it. He doesn't like it,

948
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: but I gotta keep a city safe, you know. Um yeah.

949
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: The term really took off in the nineteen thirties, right

950
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,840
Speaker 1: alongside a massive increase in police use of torture. In

951
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 1: ninety one, President Herbert Hoover established the National Commission on

952
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:21,320
Speaker 1: Law Observance and Enforcement, better known as the Wickersham Commission.

953
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,800
Speaker 1: It reported that the third degree was used throughout the country,

954
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 1: most often in big cities like New York, Chicago, Detroit,

955
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 1: and Los Angeles. In the South, torture was used to

956
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:33,439
Speaker 1: control black bodies and white mobs, but in the urban

957
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 1: North it was just used to make cop lives easier

958
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 1: by guaranteeing them quick convictions. People at the time were

959
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:42,320
Speaker 1: rightly angry at this, and initiatives were enacted after the

960
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 1: Wickersham Commission to reduce the use of the third degree. Police,

961
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 1: for their part, denied that the third degree existed and

962
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: worn with any additional legal restrictions on cops, would cause

963
00:52:53,200 --> 00:53:00,120
Speaker 1: crime to rise. Yeah. Yeah, they have one tool and

964
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:03,839
Speaker 1: they use it real well. You know, yeah, well, you know,

965
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 1: you know, if you do this, then you know you're

966
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:08,280
Speaker 1: gonna do You're gonna call it's gonna be more crime.

967
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 1: And as you hear props say that, imagining it's coming

968
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 1: from the voice of a police officer actively pulling a

969
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: man's fingernails off. Yeah so yeah. For a long time,

970
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 1: historians thought that government scrutiny successfully reduced the use of

971
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 1: police torture, and maybe it did reduce it, but it

972
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 1: did not eliminate it, and modern scholarship suggests that it

973
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 1: just caused cops to get cagier and a little bit

974
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:34,799
Speaker 1: more clever with how they tortured people. One way to

975
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 1: do this was to transition to methods of torture that

976
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 1: left no physical marks on the victims. In nineteen thirty,

977
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 1: a New York Legal aid organization listed two cases of

978
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 1: suspects who were brutalized by police during interrogations. Most of

979
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 1: the torture victims were uneducated whites under the age of thirty.

980
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:54,399
Speaker 1: A large number of those white boys were immigrants. While

981
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:57,239
Speaker 1: black people were a minority of torture victims in the North,

982
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 1: they were a disproportionate percentage of the victims of New

983
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 1: York Police Department. Torture victims were black men, and black

984
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,799
Speaker 1: people made up only five percent of New York's population.

985
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 1: So that's follow me. Now, that's pretty bad. Yeah, yeah,

986
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 1: that ain't good. Dog. When you think of like, so

987
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 1: when I think of like just just statistics of like okay, uh,

988
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 1: some like some like three times three times more likely

989
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 1: if you're a black miner boy to be tried as

990
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: an adult, uh, and then and given the harshest, like

991
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:50,280
Speaker 1: the harshest possible sentence. It's like I used to wonder, like, okay,

992
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 1: when like when did how did y'all pull this off?

993
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 1: Like how like I just I couldn't. I couldn't do

994
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 1: the math, Like okay, so like why why why try

995
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:05,959
Speaker 1: us as adults? Like I don't. I don't understand why

996
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:09,400
Speaker 1: you think and why us more than anyone else. And

997
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 1: then you hear stories like this where you're like, well, yeah,

998
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 1: I mean they you know, they routinely just you know,

999
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:17,839
Speaker 1: we could take a lot of pain, and then they

1000
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 1: you know, it's well, I mean they've been torturing us

1001
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 1: for a while, you know, so like and now you know,

1002
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 1: you go, you get to a time where, you know,

1003
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:26,439
Speaker 1: post civil rights, where like you said, like you can't

1004
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 1: you can't just leave physical marks, and like can I

1005
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 1: actually torture fools? We try to figure out other ways

1006
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 1: to do it, you know, we just yeah, it's got

1007
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 1: so you're continuing the problems. So it's like them getting cunning.

1008
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 1: That's what I'm trying to get to them being cunning

1009
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 1: is the tradition? Yes, Yes, And then saying also this

1010
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:55,320
Speaker 1: thing that you have extensive documentation of happening never happens

1011
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:59,360
Speaker 1: when you're a liar. Believe us we're the cops. Yes,

1012
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:02,279
Speaker 1: And it gets it gets, it gets worse. I'm gonna

1013
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:05,400
Speaker 1: quote again from niedermeyer Um. The report by the Wickersham

1014
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 1: Commission highlighted numerous cases from Southern states in which police

1015
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:11,480
Speaker 1: officers and sheriffs used batons, fists, and whips to extort

1016
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 1: confessions from black suspects. The report also documented the use

1017
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 1: of the so called water cure on black suspects, a

1018
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 1: forerunner to water boarding that US soldiers used during the

1019
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:25,719
Speaker 1: Philippine American War eight two. The water cure consisted of

1020
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 1: tying suspects flat on their backs and using a hose

1021
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:30,239
Speaker 1: to force water into their mouths or noses until they

1022
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:33,840
Speaker 1: provided the requested information and made a confession. Furthermore, the

1023
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:36,840
Speaker 1: report mentioned torture methods on African Americans that included the

1024
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 1: use of electricity. One of these involved in improvised electric chair,

1025
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 1: which was used until nineteen by the sheriff's office and Helena,

1026
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:47,440
Speaker 1: Arkansas to extract confessions. The report also pointed to individual

1027
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 1: cases of police torture of people of Mexican origin and

1028
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:53,440
Speaker 1: white suspects. The cases collected by the Wickersham Commission indicate

1029
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:55,279
Speaker 1: that the vast majority of the victims in the South

1030
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 1: were African Americans. Primarily men, but also women. Moreover, they

1031
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,399
Speaker 1: showed that police torture of African Americans in the South

1032
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 1: was already commonplace before nineteen thirty. Diverse historical studies confirmed

1033
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 1: that this practice can be traced to the days of slavery.

1034
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 1: It never ended. They just got cunning, Yes, there it is, yes,

1035
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 1: and and I love like, I love how you're you're

1036
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 1: bringing out the idea that like, we're not we're not

1037
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 1: historical revisionists in the sense to say that this is

1038
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:29,120
Speaker 1: a uniquely black experience. That's not to say that black

1039
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 1: have had Blacks have had a unique experience in this,

1040
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 1: but this is not a unique experience. This is a

1041
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 1: This is a continual abuse of power and a protection

1042
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 1: of wealth, resources and supremacy. And and nobody is safe.

1043
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:46,920
Speaker 1: Nobody is safe. That's part of the that's part of the

1044
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:49,440
Speaker 1: the people started to realize. A lot of liberals who

1045
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 1: would have been broadly pro police, uh, you know, have

1046
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 1: started to realize since getting tear gassed and shot with

1047
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 1: rubber bullets by the cops, it's just like safe. If

1048
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:02,960
Speaker 1: you give them the right to violently oppress one group

1049
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 1: of people, they will start fucking with you. It's the whole.

1050
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 1: It's the whole. First, they came for the communist and

1051
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 1: I was not a Commis, Like, that's how it works.

1052
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:21,600
Speaker 1: It's fascism, Robert. You know what isn't, hopefully fascism the

1053
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 1: products and services that support this podcast. Yeah, yep, not

1054
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:37,440
Speaker 1: fascism all legally antifa um hopefully Yeah. I call the

1055
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:40,560
Speaker 1: Union Hall as his mat of life and death. I

1056
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:43,640
Speaker 1: think these people of planning to kill Dr King. On

1057
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 1: April four, Dr Martin Luther King was shot and killed

1058
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:51,560
Speaker 1: in Memphis. A petty criminal named James Earl Ray was arrested.

1059
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 1: He pled guilty to the crime and spent the rest

1060
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:59,120
Speaker 1: of his life in prison. Case closed right, James Hilvay

1061
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:04,480
Speaker 1: was con for the official story, the authorities would parade

1062
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:07,439
Speaker 1: all we found a gun that James L. Ray board

1063
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 1: in Birmingham that killed Dr King, Except it wasn't the

1064
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:14,560
Speaker 1: gun that killed Dr King. One of the problems that

1065
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:18,120
Speaker 1: came out when I got the Ray case was that

1066
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:21,520
Speaker 1: some of the evidence, as far as I was concerned,

1067
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 1: did not match the circumstances. This is the MLK tapes.

1068
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:29,040
Speaker 1: The first episodes are available now. Listen on the I

1069
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1070
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 1: The Gangster Chronicles podcast is a weekly conversation that involves

1071
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 1: around underworld, the criminals and entertainers to victims, crime and

1072
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 1: law enforcement. We cover all facets of the game. Gainster

1073
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 1: Chronicles podcast doesn't glorify from motilicit activities. We just discussed

1074
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 1: the ramifications and repercussions of these activities because at the

1075
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:58,240
Speaker 1: wall she played Gainster games. You are ultimately rewarded with

1076
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:02,160
Speaker 1: Gainster Prizes. Are our radios number one for podcasts, but

1077
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 1: don't take our word forward. Find Against the Chronicles podcast,

1078
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 1: my Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcast.

1079
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:14,080
Speaker 1: I'm Ev Rodsky, author of the New York Times bestseller

1080
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 1: fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, activists on the

1081
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:20,920
Speaker 1: gender division of labor, attorney and family mediator. And I'm

1082
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:24,840
Speaker 1: Dr Addina Rucar, a Harvard physician and medical correspondent with

1083
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:28,160
Speaker 1: an expertise and the science of stress, resilience, mental health,

1084
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:31,960
Speaker 1: and burnout. We're so excited to share our podcast Time Out,

1085
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:35,959
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Podcasts and Hello Sunshine. We're

1086
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:38,880
Speaker 1: uncovering why society makes it so hard for women to

1087
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 1: treat their time with the value it deserves. So take

1088
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:44,920
Speaker 1: this time out with us. Listen to Time Out a

1089
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:48,200
Speaker 1: fair Play podcast on the I Heart radio app, Apple

1090
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:57,000
Speaker 1: podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back. Okay.

1091
01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:00,960
Speaker 1: So the through line, the direct line you can draw

1092
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:03,320
Speaker 1: from the use of force to suppress black people during slavery,

1093
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:06,040
Speaker 1: through the KKK and lynching to the third degree. That

1094
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:08,360
Speaker 1: through line is critical because what ties all of this

1095
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:12,000
Speaker 1: together is a desire by white people in particularly not

1096
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:15,840
Speaker 1: just white people but white moneyed people, um in terms

1097
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 1: of who's organizing this to fight against the establishment of

1098
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:22,080
Speaker 1: black autonomy and equality and sort of weaponizing the rage

1099
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:25,280
Speaker 1: that white poor people feel over being poor and turning

1100
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:27,400
Speaker 1: that in a racist direction. Anyway, there's a lot that

1101
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:31,120
Speaker 1: goes into this. Historian William Brundage, cited by Niedermeyer, sees

1102
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 1: white supremacy as continually contested to rain and when black

1103
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 1: people would fight back and gain the upper hand. However,

1104
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:41,240
Speaker 1: briefly in this struggle, police were the most reliable tool

1105
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:44,520
Speaker 1: whiteness had to fight back. This has been obvious to

1106
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 1: serious researchers for a very long time. Swedish sociologist Gunner

1107
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:52,360
Speaker 1: Myrtle wrote in a nineteen forty four study titled an

1108
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:56,760
Speaker 1: American dilemma. Quote, the policeman stands not only for civic

1109
01:01:56,840 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 1: order as defined in formal laws and regulations, but also

1110
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 1: for white supremacy and the whole set of social customs

1111
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:07,320
Speaker 1: associated with this concept. It is demanded that even minor

1112
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:10,680
Speaker 1: transgressions of cast etiquette should be punished, and the policeman

1113
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 1: is delegated to carry out this function. Nineteen forty four,

1114
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:22,320
Speaker 1: Gunner saw it. Yeah, there's don't say you weren't warned. Yeah,

1115
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 1: people tried, Yes, and yes, I love the idea that

1116
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:29,240
Speaker 1: it's a Scandinavian country. Now. Yeah, the whitest dude in

1117
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 1: the world, what are y'all doing? This is a problem. Yeah.

1118
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:39,840
Speaker 1: The federal government and federal law enforcement made attempts in

1119
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:42,280
Speaker 1: the nineteen forties and nineteen fifties to push back against

1120
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:44,480
Speaker 1: the torture and murder of black people by police. There

1121
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:47,800
Speaker 1: were numerous investigations in two different sheriffs and police departments.

1122
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:50,800
Speaker 1: Some of these investigations even lad to punishments. But as

1123
01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 1: we saw in the Red Summer of nineteen nineteen, at

1124
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 1: the end of the day, black Americans had to rely

1125
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,800
Speaker 1: on themselves in order to fight back. They did this

1126
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:00,440
Speaker 1: in large part through the end of a c P.

1127
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 1: These cases helped to drum up both public awareness of

1128
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:06,040
Speaker 1: the problem in public support for changes to the system.

1129
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:08,440
Speaker 1: You can draw the elect line between the end a

1130
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:12,040
Speaker 1: CP spending decades fighting these cases and why the murder

1131
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:15,880
Speaker 1: of Emmett Till caused a massive nationwide reaction, even among

1132
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:17,959
Speaker 1: a lot of white people. It's because they had laid

1133
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:20,160
Speaker 1: the groundwork. And you can make a similar case for

1134
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:21,960
Speaker 1: not just the end of l a CP at this point,

1135
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 1: but like why specifically the murder of George Floyd finally

1136
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:27,280
Speaker 1: caused for more seeing Now, Yes, because you gotta you

1137
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:29,840
Speaker 1: gotta go back from like from Rodney King all the

1138
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:32,600
Speaker 1: way to Mike Brown. This. Yeah, it's like it's a

1139
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:36,640
Speaker 1: continual like, oh my god, enough enough. Yeah, you gotta

1140
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:39,160
Speaker 1: really prepare the white majority to give a shit about

1141
01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:41,480
Speaker 1: the murder of a black person. Is that I guess

1142
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 1: negatively looking at this for years years? Get a white

1143
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:51,960
Speaker 1: care Yeah? So um yeah. And again, the CP eventually

1144
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:55,320
Speaker 1: was successful through a number of cases in in getting

1145
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:58,800
Speaker 1: a series of Supreme Court decisions that significantly regulated and

1146
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 1: reduced the admissibility the a forced confessions. Um. And that's

1147
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 1: that had that helped. But again regulation of the police

1148
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:08,640
Speaker 1: in this regard, while it was a good thing, it

1149
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:11,800
Speaker 1: did not cure the problem of confessions obtained under the

1150
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:16,240
Speaker 1: third degree. It again just inspired the police to get subtler. Yes.

1151
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:19,920
Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty nine, Gary Dotson became the first wrongfully

1152
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:22,680
Speaker 1: convicted person to be proven innocent by DNA testing, and

1153
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:25,280
Speaker 1: Gary was white. If you're curious. In the decades since,

1154
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 1: more than two people have been exonerated by DNA testing.

1155
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:32,080
Speaker 1: In fifteen to twenty percent of these cases, police induced

1156
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:36,920
Speaker 1: false confessions were involved. Overall, twelve percent of overturned wrongful

1157
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:40,280
Speaker 1: convictions in the last thirty years have involved a false confession,

1158
01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:43,600
Speaker 1: which we don't call a forced confession anymore but probably

1159
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:49,840
Speaker 1: ought to. Yes, yeah, yeah, because no one falsely confesses. Yeah,

1160
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:53,080
Speaker 1: they are forced to. Nobody's like, ah, you know, it's

1161
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:55,439
Speaker 1: like you have a fender bender in traffic, Like I

1162
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 1: confess to rape. I'm so sorry that was my Like totally,

1163
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 1: He's like, wait, you know what my bad did I say?

1164
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:06,000
Speaker 1: Did I say I killed that guy? No? No, I

1165
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:08,800
Speaker 1: mean I didn't kill that guy. My bad. You know,

1166
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:15,360
Speaker 1: I thought was that Tuesday? I thought you saw my Tuesday. Yeah. No, no, no, no,

1167
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:17,560
Speaker 1: I didn't say I admit to murder. I said I

1168
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:20,960
Speaker 1: liked Fox Molder. I've been watching rewatching the X Files recently.

1169
01:05:20,960 --> 01:05:22,560
Speaker 1: It's my bad. It's you know what I'm saying like,

1170
01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:26,720
Speaker 1: It's just I fumbled my words. Yeah. The most shocking

1171
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 1: example of this might be the case of the Central

1172
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:31,640
Speaker 1: Park five, also in nineteen eighty nine. In this case,

1173
01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:34,960
Speaker 1: a white female jugger was beaten and raped. Five black

1174
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:37,880
Speaker 1: and Hispanic children, all between fourteen and sixteen years old,

1175
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 1: were taken into custody. All five confessed, and then all

1176
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:45,000
Speaker 1: five recanted their confessions, claiming they had only confessed after

1177
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:49,400
Speaker 1: hours of terrifying and stressful police interrogation. They claimed that

1178
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:52,280
Speaker 1: they had only admitted to committing the crime because officers

1179
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:54,560
Speaker 1: had heavily insinuated they would get to go home if

1180
01:05:54,600 --> 01:05:57,920
Speaker 1: they did. All five were convicted and sent to prison.

1181
01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:01,320
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, then a prominent con man, repeatedly urged that

1182
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:04,040
Speaker 1: the boys should be executed. In two thousand two, the

1183
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:07,440
Speaker 1: real rapist confessed, and DNA evidence confirmed his guilt and

1184
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 1: the innocence of all five boys. They were released. The

1185
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 1: case of the Central Park five sounds remarkably similar to

1186
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:18,440
Speaker 1: the case of those three boys in Mississippi, doesn't it? Yes,

1187
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:20,920
Speaker 1: and it should seem very familiar with you because just

1188
01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:26,480
Speaker 1: because a certain uh, certain elected official was invested in

1189
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:31,520
Speaker 1: making sure that they stayed in prison, Yes, yes, uh

1190
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:35,040
Speaker 1: and yeah the case of the Central Park five. Yeah,

1191
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:37,120
Speaker 1: in this case, the boys, you know, in the case

1192
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:40,120
Speaker 1: that we read earlier, um, in Mississippi, those boys were

1193
01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:43,760
Speaker 1: straight up physically tortured. What the Central Park five endured

1194
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:46,840
Speaker 1: is much subtler, but some people might call it torture.

1195
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:50,200
Speaker 1: And this brings me to discussion of the read technique.

1196
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:53,920
Speaker 1: The read technique is an interrogation tactic invented in nineteen

1197
01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:56,960
Speaker 1: sixty two by a former cop and a polygraph expert.

1198
01:06:57,240 --> 01:06:59,800
Speaker 1: You may recognize the nineteen sixty two is just right

1199
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:01,800
Speaker 1: out the same time the Supreme Court said, y'all got

1200
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 1: to stop forcing people to confess the crimes they didn't

1201
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:07,000
Speaker 1: commit via torture. John Reid, the techniques creator, had a

1202
01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 1: reputation for being the kind of guy who used psychology

1203
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:13,480
Speaker 1: to get confessions rather than violence. The origin of his

1204
01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:16,240
Speaker 1: technique came from a nineteen fifty case when a guy

1205
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:18,760
Speaker 1: named Darryl Parker came home to find his wife raped

1206
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:21,760
Speaker 1: and murdered. Parker was interrogated, and, according to the New

1207
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:24,960
Speaker 1: Yorker quote, Reid hooked Parker up to the polygraph and

1208
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:28,240
Speaker 1: started asking questions. Parker couldn't see the movement of the needles,

1209
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:30,160
Speaker 1: but each time he answered a question about the murder,

1210
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:32,520
Speaker 1: Reid told him that he was lying. As the hours

1211
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:36,280
Speaker 1: wore on, Reid began to introduce a story contrary to appearances.

1212
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:39,320
Speaker 1: He said the Parker's marriage wasn't a happy one. Nancy

1213
01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:41,880
Speaker 1: refused to give Parker the sex that he required, and

1214
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:44,720
Speaker 1: she flirted with other men. One day, in a rage,

1215
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:48,720
Speaker 1: Parker took what was rightfully his. After nine hours of interrogation,

1216
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:51,840
Speaker 1: Parker broke down and confessed. He recanted the next day,

1217
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:54,160
Speaker 1: but a jury found him guilty of murder and sentenced

1218
01:07:54,200 --> 01:07:59,160
Speaker 1: Himp to life in prison. Now Read was like, Ah,

1219
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:02,400
Speaker 1: this is the way we should always do interrogations. Uh. Yeah,

1220
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:05,360
Speaker 1: And he refined his strategy into a technique which generally

1221
01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:08,760
Speaker 1: boils down to elaborately accusing the suspect of committing a

1222
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:12,400
Speaker 1: detailed crime. After hours and hours of interrogation, Read opened

1223
01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:15,880
Speaker 1: a consulting company which by two thirteen trained more interrogators

1224
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:19,080
Speaker 1: than any other company in the world, working for everything

1225
01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:21,240
Speaker 1: from local police to the FBI, the CIA, in the

1226
01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:24,160
Speaker 1: Secret Service. The company brags that the people that trains

1227
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:27,920
Speaker 1: get their suspects to confess eight percent of the time. Bro,

1228
01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:30,840
Speaker 1: just think think about what we're telling you right now.

1229
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:39,599
Speaker 1: You have to be a absolute like Navy seal level

1230
01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:47,680
Speaker 1: mental agility and fortitude to defend yourself when you're innocent. Yea,

1231
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:51,280
Speaker 1: like when I actually didn't do the thing. I have

1232
01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:55,400
Speaker 1: to be this skilled, you said, which is why you

1233
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:58,599
Speaker 1: wait for your lawyer, which is why you have a

1234
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:05,160
Speaker 1: right to remain silent. Use it. Just shut the fuck up. Yeah,

1235
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:08,479
Speaker 1: the Read technique was used on the Central Park five

1236
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:10,640
Speaker 1: and numerous other people who have confessed to crimes they

1237
01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:14,080
Speaker 1: did not commit. Now, the Read company and its president

1238
01:09:14,120 --> 01:09:15,960
Speaker 1: will say that that is not accurate, that they were

1239
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:18,360
Speaker 1: not using the Read technique, and it's largely because they

1240
01:09:18,360 --> 01:09:20,720
Speaker 1: didn't do it right. That's what they'll claim is that, like,

1241
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:24,320
Speaker 1: false confessions are only the result of abuse or misuse

1242
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:27,720
Speaker 1: of the technique because the technique has safeguards in it

1243
01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:30,280
Speaker 1: to make sure that no false confessions are obtained by it.

1244
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:33,760
Speaker 1: So when people who are trained in the read technique

1245
01:09:34,040 --> 01:09:36,840
Speaker 1: get confessions from innocent people. It's not because of the

1246
01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:39,679
Speaker 1: read technique. It's because they were wrongly using the read

1247
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:45,200
Speaker 1: technique that makes it cool? Can you the pretzel you

1248
01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:48,559
Speaker 1: just put your body in? Wow? Okay? Yeah, it wouldn't

1249
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:51,960
Speaker 1: be great to be able to just like to be

1250
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:55,880
Speaker 1: able to just with a straight face and no like

1251
01:09:56,760 --> 01:10:00,360
Speaker 1: soul conviction. Your soul is so dead inside that you

1252
01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:03,639
Speaker 1: could make that sentence and be okay with it. Yeah.

1253
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:06,080
Speaker 1: It's like if I have a school that trains people

1254
01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:09,240
Speaker 1: to fire over the heads of crowds with assault rifles,

1255
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:12,160
Speaker 1: and then some people fire into the crowds with assault rifles.

1256
01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:14,040
Speaker 1: Clearly none of that's like, I have nothing to do

1257
01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:16,920
Speaker 1: with that. Said the heads I fled fire told you

1258
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:19,800
Speaker 1: shoot over the head. Yeah, there's a safeguard to make

1259
01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:26,920
Speaker 1: sure no one gets hit. Oh yeah. So the read

1260
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:29,240
Speaker 1: technique has started to fall out of favor in the

1261
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:31,640
Speaker 1: last really in the last few years, and seventeen was

1262
01:10:31,680 --> 01:10:35,360
Speaker 1: when like one big agency stopped sending interrogators and to

1263
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:37,360
Speaker 1: be trained in it. And it this seems to have

1264
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:39,160
Speaker 1: like you know you mentioned earlier. I think it was

1265
01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:42,400
Speaker 1: to catch a predator, right, Um, that that the like

1266
01:10:42,439 --> 01:10:45,360
Speaker 1: the fact that a lot of interrogations are videotaped and

1267
01:10:45,360 --> 01:10:47,160
Speaker 1: that some of those came out in documentaries and people

1268
01:10:47,160 --> 01:10:49,280
Speaker 1: got to see, oh my god, is this what cops

1269
01:10:49,280 --> 01:10:53,639
Speaker 1: are doing? Yeah, this isn't okay. So it is still

1270
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:57,439
Speaker 1: very common, still widely in use. But the tide might

1271
01:10:57,800 --> 01:11:01,720
Speaker 1: seems to be turning on the read technique. We'll see. Um,

1272
01:11:01,760 --> 01:11:03,720
Speaker 1: it is not legal for police to beat the ship

1273
01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:06,080
Speaker 1: out of suspects to force a confession, not anymore. And

1274
01:11:06,120 --> 01:11:08,120
Speaker 1: I guess you could see even the read technique as

1275
01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:11,920
Speaker 1: an improvement over literal physical torture. Um. But it is

1276
01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:14,679
Speaker 1: legal for police to lie about evidence, to withhold food

1277
01:11:14,720 --> 01:11:16,960
Speaker 1: and water from suspects for what I would consider to

1278
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:18,800
Speaker 1: be long periods of time, and to subject them to

1279
01:11:18,920 --> 01:11:21,759
Speaker 1: verbal abuse and psychologically torture them until they see confessing

1280
01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:23,840
Speaker 1: is the only way out. I can't say if the

1281
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:26,600
Speaker 1: read technique is responsible from most false confessions in the

1282
01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:29,400
Speaker 1: modern United States, but I can't tell you the police

1283
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:32,479
Speaker 1: department that is responsible for more false confessions than any other.

1284
01:11:33,560 --> 01:11:38,800
Speaker 1: You want to guess, No, Chicago, Who's gonna be one

1285
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:44,040
Speaker 1: of the two, right, yeah? Yeah, yeah, Now, more than

1286
01:11:44,120 --> 01:11:49,160
Speaker 1: thirty of all exonerations that involve false confessions were people

1287
01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:51,920
Speaker 1: who confessed in Illinois state, and most of those were

1288
01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:54,120
Speaker 1: people who confess to the Chicago p D. And the

1289
01:11:54,200 --> 01:11:56,800
Speaker 1: question to why is this happening has a lot to

1290
01:11:56,840 --> 01:12:02,920
Speaker 1: do with a dude named John Burge. Yeah. So yeah,

1291
01:12:03,160 --> 01:12:07,759
Speaker 1: like a little a little side note especially about what

1292
01:12:07,760 --> 01:12:10,080
Speaker 1: what you're talking about, like how some of these confessions happen,

1293
01:12:10,120 --> 01:12:13,639
Speaker 1: and how slick they are, because like say, for example,

1294
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:22,200
Speaker 1: you hear on the news that somebody died on Fourth Street, right,

1295
01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 1: So then when you get picked up and then cops go, ey,

1296
01:12:26,240 --> 01:12:28,760
Speaker 1: did you hear about the shooting on Fourth Street? And

1297
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:32,439
Speaker 1: you're like yeah, and then he goes, yeah, that the

1298
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:34,320
Speaker 1: that the lady was coming out of the house, and

1299
01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:36,920
Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, I heard that. First of all, the

1300
01:12:36,920 --> 01:12:39,960
Speaker 1: story wasn't that there was a shooting. The story was

1301
01:12:40,320 --> 01:12:43,479
Speaker 1: somebody died. So when he said did you hear about

1302
01:12:43,479 --> 01:12:46,960
Speaker 1: the shooting, what he's doing is making sure you just

1303
01:12:47,080 --> 01:12:50,280
Speaker 1: confessed to information. They said he had information about the crime.

1304
01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:53,040
Speaker 1: And because you it's like, I didn't say shooting. You

1305
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:54,519
Speaker 1: said shooting? Well no, no no, no, no, no no, I just

1306
01:12:54,520 --> 01:12:56,200
Speaker 1: asked if you heard about You said you heard about it.

1307
01:12:56,200 --> 01:12:59,000
Speaker 1: I didn't tell you. The story isn't that there's a shooting.

1308
01:12:59,080 --> 01:13:03,800
Speaker 1: So like how slick that type of like practice is.

1309
01:13:04,160 --> 01:13:08,760
Speaker 1: And you listen, I'm telling you this stuff out of experience,

1310
01:13:08,920 --> 01:13:11,160
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, Like somebody saying, hey, you here,

1311
01:13:11,160 --> 01:13:13,280
Speaker 1: the liquor store got robbed out. Hey you heard about

1312
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:15,160
Speaker 1: that liquor store robbed Like I had to learn to

1313
01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:19,439
Speaker 1: be like, nah, I ain't heard ship. I don't heard nothing.

1314
01:13:19,439 --> 01:13:21,680
Speaker 1: I don't I mean, I don't know. You know what

1315
01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:23,599
Speaker 1: I'm saying. What do you mean? You don't know? You're

1316
01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:25,320
Speaker 1: not You're square, You're not part of You're not part

1317
01:13:25,320 --> 01:13:27,000
Speaker 1: of the streets. You know. I've seen you with your

1318
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:29,679
Speaker 1: friends and I'm like, uh, sorry, I don't live here,

1319
01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:33,720
Speaker 1: you know, just like you have to like be Yeah, anyway,

1320
01:13:34,240 --> 01:13:37,160
Speaker 1: all that to say this stuff is like as like

1321
01:13:37,320 --> 01:13:40,599
Speaker 1: heinous as we're telling you. It's so subtle and it's

1322
01:13:40,760 --> 01:13:45,639
Speaker 1: so slick, you know what I'm saying, Like everybody swears, well, well,

1323
01:13:45,800 --> 01:13:47,720
Speaker 1: if I was in the situation, I'm like, na, you

1324
01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:51,400
Speaker 1: you would do exactly what everyone else does in the situation. Yeah, yeah,

1325
01:13:51,439 --> 01:13:53,479
Speaker 1: which is why you don't talk and you wait for

1326
01:13:53,479 --> 01:13:58,679
Speaker 1: your fucking lawyer. Yes, Yeah, John, John motherfucking birds, John

1327
01:13:58,720 --> 01:14:00,640
Speaker 1: Bird is proof that the old tes tactics of the

1328
01:14:00,760 --> 01:14:03,360
Speaker 1: third degree still aren't as much a part of the

1329
01:14:03,400 --> 01:14:06,880
Speaker 1: past as some folks might like to believe. John Burge

1330
01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:09,519
Speaker 1: was a decorated Vietnam veteran who served as a military

1331
01:14:09,560 --> 01:14:12,240
Speaker 1: police officer, working for a time as a Provost marshal

1332
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:15,560
Speaker 1: investigator during that conflict. After the war, he returned to

1333
01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:18,360
Speaker 1: Chicago and became a cop in nineteen seventy two. He

1334
01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:21,759
Speaker 1: was promoted to detective one year later. In nineteen seventy three,

1335
01:14:21,800 --> 01:14:25,200
Speaker 1: he tortured his first victim. According to the Marshall Project quote,

1336
01:14:25,800 --> 01:14:28,280
Speaker 1: his officers had arrested a man named Anthony Holmes on

1337
01:14:28,320 --> 01:14:31,640
Speaker 1: suspicion of murder and wanted to him to identify an accomplice.

1338
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:34,200
Speaker 1: When Holmes refused, the officers left him handcuffed in an

1339
01:14:34,240 --> 01:14:37,240
Speaker 1: area to investigation room and went to find Burge. A

1340
01:14:37,280 --> 01:14:39,880
Speaker 1: few minutes later, Burge strolled into the interrogation room with

1341
01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:43,120
Speaker 1: a mysterious box in a brown paper bag. The box

1342
01:14:43,160 --> 01:14:45,679
Speaker 1: had a hand crank on one end and two wires

1343
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:48,720
Speaker 1: with alligator clamps coming out the other end. According to

1344
01:14:48,760 --> 01:14:51,840
Speaker 1: trial testimony, decades later, Burge then picked up the alligator

1345
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:55,000
Speaker 1: clamps and barked, inward, you're going to tell me what

1346
01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:58,000
Speaker 1: I want to know. He fastened the alligator clamps and

1347
01:14:58,000 --> 01:15:01,120
Speaker 1: pulled a plastic bag down over Holmes's head, warning him

1348
01:15:01,120 --> 01:15:03,439
Speaker 1: not to bite through it when the pain hit. Then

1349
01:15:03,439 --> 01:15:08,400
Speaker 1: he started turning the crank. He was electrocuting him. She's

1350
01:15:09,240 --> 01:15:13,320
Speaker 1: over the next few yeah, uh yeah yeah. Over the

1351
01:15:13,360 --> 01:15:16,160
Speaker 1: next few years, Burge continued to be his department's go

1352
01:15:16,280 --> 01:15:19,360
Speaker 1: to torture man. Department rumors stated that he had learned

1353
01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:21,840
Speaker 1: the techniques he employed during his time in Vietnam on

1354
01:15:21,880 --> 01:15:25,800
Speaker 1: the bodies of North Vietnamese po ws. We call this

1355
01:15:25,840 --> 01:15:29,360
Speaker 1: fucos boomerang, the tactics used in colonial wars overseas. Coming

1356
01:15:29,360 --> 01:15:32,200
Speaker 1: back to the United States, Burge denies that he tortured

1357
01:15:32,200 --> 01:15:34,920
Speaker 1: anyone in Vietnam. He also denied torturing people here, so

1358
01:15:35,080 --> 01:15:38,280
Speaker 1: maybe you don't take that super seriously. Um. Yeah. He

1359
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:42,080
Speaker 1: quickly perfected what he called his inward box, which is

1360
01:15:42,120 --> 01:15:44,960
Speaker 1: what he named the box he used to electrocute black people,

1361
01:15:45,040 --> 01:15:48,240
Speaker 1: often electrocuting their testicles. I've talked to one of Burge's victims,

1362
01:15:48,280 --> 01:15:50,320
Speaker 1: and that's what Birge did him as he electrocuted his

1363
01:15:50,400 --> 01:15:53,880
Speaker 1: testicles with his inward box. Um. Yeah, there's there's a

1364
01:15:53,960 --> 01:15:55,600
Speaker 1: there's which is a whole other story I want to

1365
01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:58,559
Speaker 1: get to. But there's this weird fascination with torturing of

1366
01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:03,519
Speaker 1: black genit with it's very common in lynching, very common

1367
01:16:03,520 --> 01:16:05,599
Speaker 1: in lynching, that they would be severed and even taken

1368
01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:08,559
Speaker 1: as like souvenirs. Yeah, and it's one of those like

1369
01:16:09,360 --> 01:16:11,600
Speaker 1: my eternal question putting through how much detail do I

1370
01:16:11,640 --> 01:16:14,080
Speaker 1: go into? We could have done six episodes on lynching,

1371
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:17,280
Speaker 1: and it deserves six episodes, but not trying to give

1372
01:16:17,280 --> 01:16:21,360
Speaker 1: a broader I appreciated like that not being mentioned. Yeah, Yeah,

1373
01:16:21,479 --> 01:16:24,680
Speaker 1: it's the thing because of his high case clearance rate,

1374
01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:27,439
Speaker 1: because he gave boy John's real good at getting criminals

1375
01:16:27,479 --> 01:16:30,040
Speaker 1: to confess. He's solving all these murders. Because of his

1376
01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:32,840
Speaker 1: high case clearance rate, John was promoted to sergeant and

1377
01:16:32,840 --> 01:16:36,200
Speaker 1: then to lieutenant and eventually to commander. John burgess behavior

1378
01:16:36,320 --> 01:16:39,000
Speaker 1: was not hidden from other men in the Chicago Police.

1379
01:16:39,240 --> 01:16:42,280
Speaker 1: He kept his inward box out on open display at

1380
01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:45,720
Speaker 1: a table in the police station. He trained dozens of

1381
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:49,280
Speaker 1: other Chicago officers in his techniques, which expanded over the

1382
01:16:49,360 --> 01:16:53,320
Speaker 1: years to include electric cattle prods, simulate and simulated executions.

1383
01:16:53,520 --> 01:16:57,480
Speaker 1: Burgess officers often beat subjects with telephone books, flashlights, batons,

1384
01:16:57,520 --> 01:17:01,000
Speaker 1: and bats. They burned men with hot radiators cigarettes. They

1385
01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:04,480
Speaker 1: put plastic bags over the heads of others and suffocated them.

1386
01:17:04,479 --> 01:17:07,960
Speaker 1: This went on for a very, very long time. The

1387
01:17:08,080 --> 01:17:12,240
Speaker 1: end began in nineteen eighty two, when two police officers

1388
01:17:12,280 --> 01:17:14,280
Speaker 1: were murdered and Burge and his team tortured the ship

1389
01:17:14,360 --> 01:17:16,600
Speaker 1: out of a pair of black brothers until they confessed.

1390
01:17:17,240 --> 01:17:20,479
Speaker 1: The injuries one of them suffered were significant enough that

1391
01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:23,200
Speaker 1: a medical official reported on them, and that was the

1392
01:17:23,280 --> 01:17:26,840
Speaker 1: first crack in the Burge system. Allegations of torture by

1393
01:17:26,840 --> 01:17:28,800
Speaker 1: Burge and his men, though, didn't break through the blue

1394
01:17:28,800 --> 01:17:32,160
Speaker 1: wall of silence until a nineteen eighty nine civil lawsuit

1395
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:35,160
Speaker 1: by the People's Law Office. One of the attorneys behind

1396
01:17:35,200 --> 01:17:38,599
Speaker 1: this case, who later represented many Burge victims, was Flint Taylor.

1397
01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:42,280
Speaker 1: He described the existence of Burgess Unit as an unremitting

1398
01:17:42,320 --> 01:17:46,320
Speaker 1: official cover up that has implicated a series of police superintendents,

1399
01:17:46,439 --> 01:17:50,080
Speaker 1: numerous prosecutors, more than thirty police detectives and supervisors, and

1400
01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:54,240
Speaker 1: most notably Richard M. Daley, the city's former longtime mayor,

1401
01:17:54,280 --> 01:17:57,960
Speaker 1: and a previous state's attorney. The whole story came out

1402
01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:00,000
Speaker 1: in bits and pieces through a mix of victims coming

1403
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:02,880
Speaker 1: forward in anonymous sources within the department. One of these

1404
01:18:02,880 --> 01:18:06,040
Speaker 1: anonymous sources was a cop who left again anonymous voice

1405
01:18:06,040 --> 01:18:09,559
Speaker 1: messages for Flint Taylor. Taylor and his fellows nicknamed this

1406
01:18:09,600 --> 01:18:12,600
Speaker 1: guy Deep Badge. So part of the lesson here is

1407
01:18:12,640 --> 01:18:16,519
Speaker 1: that after seventeen years of torture that was enthusiastically supported

1408
01:18:16,520 --> 01:18:18,639
Speaker 1: at every level of the Chicago p D, a couple

1409
01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:20,800
Speaker 1: of good cops did finally work up the courage to

1410
01:18:20,840 --> 01:18:23,439
Speaker 1: leave anonymous voicemails after a lawyer had figured out the

1411
01:18:23,439 --> 01:18:26,360
Speaker 1: basics of the case and publicized them. That's what good

1412
01:18:26,400 --> 01:18:29,679
Speaker 1: cops get you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's like three of them,

1413
01:18:29,800 --> 01:18:32,360
Speaker 1: and then and it takes me seventeen years to do anything.

1414
01:18:32,479 --> 01:18:36,519
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Burge was eventually accused of

1415
01:18:36,560 --> 01:18:38,760
Speaker 1: torturing more than a hundred people, virtually all of whom

1416
01:18:38,800 --> 01:18:42,519
Speaker 1: were black, between nineteen seventy two and nineteen ninety one.

1417
01:18:44,040 --> 01:18:47,800
Speaker 1: That means recent. Yeah, at this point, we know that

1418
01:18:48,040 --> 01:18:50,680
Speaker 1: there's probably over two hundred victims. We will never know

1419
01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:52,600
Speaker 1: the true number of Birge victims. It's been a lot

1420
01:18:52,600 --> 01:18:54,080
Speaker 1: of these guys were executed, a lot of them died

1421
01:18:54,080 --> 01:18:58,360
Speaker 1: in prison. In the Chicago Police Board voted to fire

1422
01:18:58,479 --> 01:19:01,519
Speaker 1: John Burge. This into did plans the local Fraternal Order

1423
01:19:01,520 --> 01:19:03,880
Speaker 1: of Police had made that same year to honor Burge

1424
01:19:03,880 --> 01:19:06,120
Speaker 1: and four o their officers with a parade float. All

1425
01:19:06,160 --> 01:19:09,200
Speaker 1: of the other four officers were also accused of torturing people.

1426
01:19:09,840 --> 01:19:12,000
Speaker 1: By the time he was fired, Burge had risen to

1427
01:19:12,040 --> 01:19:15,160
Speaker 1: the rank of commander. He was not charged criminally until

1428
01:19:15,200 --> 01:19:17,800
Speaker 1: two thousand eight and not sent to prison until two

1429
01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:21,080
Speaker 1: thousand eleven. He got out of prison in two thousand fourteen.

1430
01:19:21,680 --> 01:19:24,879
Speaker 1: Chicago has paid out millions of dollars in reparations to victims,

1431
01:19:24,880 --> 01:19:27,759
Speaker 1: but an unknown number of Burge's victims still remain in prison.

1432
01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:30,439
Speaker 1: Multiple people were released from death row as a result

1433
01:19:30,479 --> 01:19:31,960
Speaker 1: of all of this coming to light, but we will

1434
01:19:32,000 --> 01:19:35,799
Speaker 1: again never know how many innocent men were executed. Burge

1435
01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:38,600
Speaker 1: died in two thousand eighteen, four years after he was

1436
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:42,040
Speaker 1: released from prison. Chicago's police union issued a statement on

1437
01:19:42,080 --> 01:19:45,200
Speaker 1: their Facebook page offering condolences to the Burge family and

1438
01:19:45,240 --> 01:19:48,040
Speaker 1: insisting it does not believe the full story about the

1439
01:19:48,080 --> 01:19:51,599
Speaker 1: Burge cases has ever been told. Dean Angelo, former head

1440
01:19:51,640 --> 01:19:54,600
Speaker 1: of the Chicago Fraternal Order of Police, told reporters, I

1441
01:19:54,680 --> 01:19:56,679
Speaker 1: don't know that John Burge got a fair shake based

1442
01:19:56,680 --> 01:19:58,240
Speaker 1: on all the years and years of service that he

1443
01:19:58,280 --> 01:20:01,280
Speaker 1: gave the city. He insisted, Burge put a lot of

1444
01:20:01,280 --> 01:20:05,960
Speaker 1: bad guys in prison two thousand eighteen. The cops who

1445
01:20:06,000 --> 01:20:11,400
Speaker 1: believe this are still on the force. Just guys there,

1446
01:20:11,400 --> 01:20:19,759
Speaker 1: most of the force. Ah, yeah, guys. Yeah, you're asking

1447
01:20:20,160 --> 01:20:24,080
Speaker 1: you're asking us to respect you, and it's like I

1448
01:20:24,120 --> 01:20:29,439
Speaker 1: would love to I would love to respect just do

1449
01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:33,960
Speaker 1: respectable things. Yeah. Yeah. You know who I respect. My

1450
01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:38,360
Speaker 1: my neighbor across the street who has never tortured several

1451
01:20:38,479 --> 01:20:41,800
Speaker 1: hundred people that I respect him. Yeah, he's He's earned

1452
01:20:41,800 --> 01:20:43,920
Speaker 1: my respect by virtue of being a human being who

1453
01:20:44,000 --> 01:20:49,679
Speaker 1: doesn't commit random acts of violence. Yeah. It's not hard

1454
01:20:49,760 --> 01:20:55,680
Speaker 1: to earn respect. You just have to not Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

1455
01:20:56,000 --> 01:20:58,280
Speaker 1: So I'm sure that Burge did go to his grave

1456
01:20:58,320 --> 01:21:00,400
Speaker 1: believing that, like what he did had been worth it,

1457
01:21:00,400 --> 01:21:02,759
Speaker 1: because he again put a lot of bad guys in prison.

1458
01:21:03,360 --> 01:21:05,920
Speaker 1: I talked to one of Burgess victims, and this guy

1459
01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:08,880
Speaker 1: had an extensive violent criminal record when he wound up

1460
01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:11,599
Speaker 1: in Burgess hands. He had done bad things, and John

1461
01:21:11,640 --> 01:21:15,599
Speaker 1: probably figured, we've got a crime. This guy's a scumbag fucket,

1462
01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:18,719
Speaker 1: he's got to be guilty. And oddly enough, that thinking,

1463
01:21:18,760 --> 01:21:21,479
Speaker 1: the thinking that John Burge probably used to justify his crimes,

1464
01:21:21,520 --> 01:21:24,759
Speaker 1: the thinking that the Chicago Police Department and the Fraternal

1465
01:21:24,880 --> 01:21:27,920
Speaker 1: Order of Police in Chicago certainly uses to justify Burgess

1466
01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:31,320
Speaker 1: crimes even today, that thinking these guys were guilty, that

1467
01:21:31,520 --> 01:21:34,200
Speaker 1: thinking puts them all right in line with the law

1468
01:21:34,240 --> 01:21:38,040
Speaker 1: abiding interrogators who used the read technique. Richard Leo, a

1469
01:21:38,080 --> 01:21:40,639
Speaker 1: law professor from the University of San Francisco, spent nine

1470
01:21:40,640 --> 01:21:43,679
Speaker 1: months sitting in an almost two interrogations in Oakland during

1471
01:21:43,680 --> 01:21:46,320
Speaker 1: the mid nineteen nineties. He learned that most officers who

1472
01:21:46,280 --> 01:21:48,080
Speaker 1: again these guys were all trained in the read technique.

1473
01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:50,879
Speaker 1: He learned that most officers were skipping a critical aspect

1474
01:21:50,880 --> 01:21:53,360
Speaker 1: of the proper read technique. That aspect is having an

1475
01:21:53,400 --> 01:21:56,280
Speaker 1: initial interview with the suspect. You're supposed to like interview them,

1476
01:21:56,280 --> 01:21:58,559
Speaker 1: have like a normal conversation with them, and kind of

1477
01:21:58,560 --> 01:22:00,840
Speaker 1: decide if you think they're guilty before you move on

1478
01:22:00,880 --> 01:22:03,280
Speaker 1: to the interrogation. I'm going to quote from the New

1479
01:22:03,360 --> 01:22:07,360
Speaker 1: Yorker again. The read interrogation technique is predicated upon an

1480
01:22:07,360 --> 01:22:12,360
Speaker 1: accurate determination during behavioral analysis of whether the suspect is lying. Here, too,

1481
01:22:12,520 --> 01:22:15,759
Speaker 1: social scientists find reason for concern. Three decades of research

1482
01:22:15,800 --> 01:22:18,160
Speaker 1: have shown that nonverbal signals so prized by the red

1483
01:22:18,200 --> 01:22:21,960
Speaker 1: trainers bear no relation to deception. In fact, people have

1484
01:22:22,120 --> 01:22:24,599
Speaker 1: little more than coin flipping odds of guessing if someone

1485
01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:27,479
Speaker 1: is telling the truth, and numerous surveys have shown that

1486
01:22:27,520 --> 01:22:31,360
Speaker 1: police do know better. Aldert Rig, a professor of psychology

1487
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:33,439
Speaker 1: at the University of Portsmouth and England, found that law

1488
01:22:33,520 --> 01:22:37,080
Speaker 1: enforcement experience does not necessarily improve the ability to detect lies.

1489
01:22:37,280 --> 01:22:40,120
Speaker 1: Among police officers, those who said they paid close attention

1490
01:22:40,120 --> 01:22:43,760
Speaker 1: to nonverbal cues did the worst. Similarly, an experiment by

1491
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:46,559
Speaker 1: Cason shows that both students and police officers were better

1492
01:22:46,600 --> 01:22:48,840
Speaker 1: at telling true confessions from false ones when they listened

1493
01:22:48,880 --> 01:22:51,559
Speaker 1: to an audio recording of an interview rather than watch

1494
01:22:51,560 --> 01:22:54,519
Speaker 1: it on video. In the experiment, the police officers who

1495
01:22:54,520 --> 01:22:57,439
Speaker 1: performed less well than the students but expressed greater confidence

1496
01:22:57,439 --> 01:23:01,200
Speaker 1: in their ability to tell who was lying. Cops will

1497
01:23:01,240 --> 01:23:03,360
Speaker 1: always tell you they know how to spot a liar

1498
01:23:03,680 --> 01:23:08,599
Speaker 1: they are lying. Yeah, you can't really, there's no way

1499
01:23:08,640 --> 01:23:12,200
Speaker 1: to know. Yeah, there's no way to know, you know.

1500
01:23:12,360 --> 01:23:17,080
Speaker 1: And I feel like in all my police interactions, UM,

1501
01:23:17,120 --> 01:23:20,679
Speaker 1: and I'm saying this as someone with like I don't

1502
01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:22,840
Speaker 1: I don't think I have a criminal record. Maybe you

1503
01:23:22,880 --> 01:23:25,760
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. But in all of the interactions

1504
01:23:25,800 --> 01:23:31,600
Speaker 1: I've had, whether it was o overtly racist or very aggressive,

1505
01:23:31,880 --> 01:23:34,160
Speaker 1: or the guy was being a nice guy, or you

1506
01:23:34,280 --> 01:23:36,559
Speaker 1: just meet like like you guys playing a nice cary,

1507
01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:41,120
Speaker 1: or you just meet like a he's just like he's

1508
01:23:41,160 --> 01:23:42,960
Speaker 1: like really a good dude. It really doesn't care. He's

1509
01:23:43,000 --> 01:23:46,000
Speaker 1: just he's just doing his job. You know. I feel

1510
01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:48,560
Speaker 1: like I've had all of those you know what I'm saying. Um,

1511
01:23:48,600 --> 01:23:54,479
Speaker 1: But in the ones, invariably, you know you're being sized up,

1512
01:23:55,320 --> 01:23:58,960
Speaker 1: you know, and it's like so even then like this,

1513
01:23:59,280 --> 01:24:02,120
Speaker 1: it's just and sometimes I'm like, why are we playing

1514
01:24:02,120 --> 01:24:06,879
Speaker 1: this game right now? Like this is your your horrible actors?

1515
01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:10,320
Speaker 1: I know what you're doing, you know what I'm saying. Like,

1516
01:24:10,840 --> 01:24:13,400
Speaker 1: and then when you when I hear you say like

1517
01:24:13,439 --> 01:24:16,639
Speaker 1: they were supposed to train train to do an initial interview,

1518
01:24:17,000 --> 01:24:19,160
Speaker 1: and I noticed dudes trying to build rapport with me,

1519
01:24:19,240 --> 01:24:22,240
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. Um, And I'm like, I

1520
01:24:22,320 --> 01:24:26,920
Speaker 1: know this is okay, I know, I know what you're doing. Like,

1521
01:24:27,040 --> 01:24:29,960
Speaker 1: I know what you're doing. Okay. What time of day

1522
01:24:30,080 --> 01:24:33,880
Speaker 1: was it? All? Right? Word? How tall was the guy? Okay? Cool?

1523
01:24:34,240 --> 01:24:36,240
Speaker 1: Uh So I'm just like, just get to it, man,

1524
01:24:36,640 --> 01:24:38,519
Speaker 1: just get to it. Let me tell you. You want

1525
01:24:38,520 --> 01:24:39,960
Speaker 1: to know where I was. You want to know where

1526
01:24:40,000 --> 01:24:42,200
Speaker 1: I live? Okay, Here's where I live. Here's what I

1527
01:24:42,240 --> 01:24:44,000
Speaker 1: was doing at this time. Tell me what time it was?

1528
01:24:44,280 --> 01:24:46,280
Speaker 1: I fit what description? Can we just get to that

1529
01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:50,840
Speaker 1: rather than artists rigamar Yeah, I'm ranting. Yeah. So I

1530
01:24:50,880 --> 01:24:54,280
Speaker 1: talked earlier about how police torture to force confessions didn't stop.

1531
01:24:54,280 --> 01:24:56,240
Speaker 1: It just got settler under pressure, and the same is

1532
01:24:56,240 --> 01:24:58,960
Speaker 1: true with the impact of racism and law enforcement. After

1533
01:24:59,080 --> 01:25:02,320
Speaker 1: Jim Crow ended, the most obvious justification for bigoted policing

1534
01:25:02,400 --> 01:25:05,120
Speaker 1: was gone, but the bigotry remained, as it a system

1535
01:25:05,160 --> 01:25:08,000
Speaker 1: that was built almost completely during a period of time

1536
01:25:08,040 --> 01:25:10,920
Speaker 1: where either slavery, black codes or Jim Crow laws were

1537
01:25:10,920 --> 01:25:14,200
Speaker 1: the rule. In Minneapolis, where black people make up nineteen

1538
01:25:14,200 --> 01:25:17,639
Speaker 1: percent of the population, they are subjected to fifty eight

1539
01:25:17,680 --> 01:25:20,439
Speaker 1: percent of use of force cases by the city's police.

1540
01:25:21,720 --> 01:25:23,960
Speaker 1: A May two thousand twenty, studies showed that out of

1541
01:25:24,000 --> 01:25:26,920
Speaker 1: ninety five million traffic stops nationwide between two thousand and

1542
01:25:26,960 --> 01:25:29,360
Speaker 1: eleven and two thousand and eighteen, black people were vastly

1543
01:25:29,360 --> 01:25:32,040
Speaker 1: more likely to be pulled over than white people, except

1544
01:25:32,040 --> 01:25:36,080
Speaker 1: at night, when the gap shrinks considerably Black people because again,

1545
01:25:36,120 --> 01:25:39,799
Speaker 1: the cops can't tell what race you are is easily black, yeah,

1546
01:25:39,840 --> 01:25:42,200
Speaker 1: so they're not They're not able to judge this is

1547
01:25:42,200 --> 01:25:48,280
Speaker 1: a guilty person before the interaction. Black yeah. Black people

1548
01:25:48,280 --> 01:25:50,240
Speaker 1: are also more likely to be searched during a stop,

1549
01:25:50,240 --> 01:25:52,439
Speaker 1: even though white people are more likely to actually have

1550
01:25:52,600 --> 01:25:55,240
Speaker 1: contraband on them. I could go on and on, but

1551
01:25:55,280 --> 01:25:57,759
Speaker 1: the basic point is the same. All of these cops,

1552
01:25:57,880 --> 01:26:01,400
Speaker 1: from Officer Dial to John Birge to current police officers

1553
01:26:01,400 --> 01:26:03,640
Speaker 1: who are today two and a half times likely to

1554
01:26:03,640 --> 01:26:05,880
Speaker 1: shoot a black man than a white one, all of

1555
01:26:05,920 --> 01:26:10,160
Speaker 1: these cops are making, at a certain level, the same decision.

1556
01:26:10,640 --> 01:26:14,080
Speaker 1: They are judging black people as guilty before they know

1557
01:26:14,160 --> 01:26:16,960
Speaker 1: anything more than their skin color. And this is persistent

1558
01:26:17,080 --> 01:26:20,519
Speaker 1: through every single level of law enforcement in our country.

1559
01:26:20,760 --> 01:26:23,799
Speaker 1: Over the decades, activists and good lawyers and Supreme Court justices,

1560
01:26:23,840 --> 01:26:25,800
Speaker 1: and even a few decent cops here and there have

1561
01:26:25,920 --> 01:26:28,920
Speaker 1: worked to make forced confessions and admissible in court. They

1562
01:26:28,920 --> 01:26:31,320
Speaker 1: have worked to report and charge police for torture. They

1563
01:26:31,320 --> 01:26:33,080
Speaker 1: have worked to tear down the Jim Crow laws that

1564
01:26:33,120 --> 01:26:36,200
Speaker 1: provided legal justification for a lot of police aggression. And

1565
01:26:36,280 --> 01:26:39,439
Speaker 1: yet the aggression is still there. We have learned to

1566
01:26:39,520 --> 01:26:41,760
Speaker 1: channel it and probably to make it less fatal. We've

1567
01:26:41,760 --> 01:26:44,280
Speaker 1: gotten better at punishing the most blatant expressions of it,

1568
01:26:44,439 --> 01:26:47,160
Speaker 1: but we have not stopped it. And American police today

1569
01:26:47,200 --> 01:26:49,599
Speaker 1: are still doing the same thing they have been doing

1570
01:26:49,640 --> 01:26:57,839
Speaker 1: since the eighteen hundreds. They are enforcing white supremacy through violence. Period. Yep, period.

1571
01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:01,920
Speaker 1: I'll say this in like period. I say this like

1572
01:27:02,000 --> 01:27:07,479
Speaker 1: on a personal note. So, my little brother, you know,

1573
01:27:07,760 --> 01:27:10,000
Speaker 1: not by blood, but we just grew up together and

1574
01:27:10,040 --> 01:27:11,840
Speaker 1: I lived in our house whatever it is. You know,

1575
01:27:11,880 --> 01:27:15,720
Speaker 1: our families work. My little brothers is a California Highway patrolman.

1576
01:27:16,600 --> 01:27:20,920
Speaker 1: So confession, I got law enforcement in my family. My

1577
01:27:21,000 --> 01:27:23,400
Speaker 1: brother has worked there for ten fifteen years. He's never

1578
01:27:23,439 --> 01:27:26,800
Speaker 1: pulled a gun ever in his life, right, never has

1579
01:27:26,840 --> 01:27:29,120
Speaker 1: he ever pulled a weapon out. He is one of

1580
01:27:29,160 --> 01:27:32,040
Speaker 1: those ones like you said that it's like reporting dudes,

1581
01:27:32,560 --> 01:27:36,280
Speaker 1: that's like building community layers ons. He does it after school.

1582
01:27:36,280 --> 01:27:38,320
Speaker 1: He lives, he's in the valley, does after school programs,

1583
01:27:38,400 --> 01:27:41,960
Speaker 1: runs a basketball league like the people know him so

1584
01:27:42,040 --> 01:27:45,320
Speaker 1: like so, so there's that. My father, you know, we

1585
01:27:45,320 --> 01:27:47,200
Speaker 1: talked about my father. My father was a Black Panther.

1586
01:27:47,280 --> 01:27:50,439
Speaker 1: After he left the Black Panther Party because they killed it, right,

1587
01:27:50,760 --> 01:27:55,800
Speaker 1: he moved being the FBI. My father was l a

1588
01:27:55,840 --> 01:27:59,639
Speaker 1: county probation officer. He worked with like underage defenders, retired

1589
01:27:59,680 --> 01:28:02,880
Speaker 1: from their right so worked in a special handling unit.

1590
01:28:02,920 --> 01:28:06,720
Speaker 1: He wanted to deal with the violent ist of young

1591
01:28:06,760 --> 01:28:14,719
Speaker 1: offenders thirty years thirty years, never at once recommended jail time,

1592
01:28:15,520 --> 01:28:18,919
Speaker 1: never right because of what he's talking about, the systems

1593
01:28:18,920 --> 01:28:21,519
Speaker 1: designed to destroy these young black and brown men. So

1594
01:28:21,640 --> 01:28:25,519
Speaker 1: his answer was let me have them. I remember as

1595
01:28:25,560 --> 01:28:29,760
Speaker 1: a child, like going to King signeras and and and

1596
01:28:30,200 --> 01:28:32,760
Speaker 1: g D g D like graduations and stuff like that,

1597
01:28:32,920 --> 01:28:35,000
Speaker 1: all these like random kids that I didn't know. Turns

1598
01:28:35,000 --> 01:28:38,080
Speaker 1: out there were kids on his caseload because he was

1599
01:28:38,200 --> 01:28:41,519
Speaker 1: shielding them from the system. He told me stories of

1600
01:28:41,560 --> 01:28:45,160
Speaker 1: like looking at the judge, telling the judge full well,

1601
01:28:45,760 --> 01:28:48,400
Speaker 1: do not send this kid to prison. Do not send

1602
01:28:48,520 --> 01:28:51,040
Speaker 1: him to prison. The cops doing the same thing. The

1603
01:28:51,080 --> 01:28:55,280
Speaker 1: cops arrested this guy, showing them, showing them the transcript

1604
01:28:55,320 --> 01:28:57,960
Speaker 1: and being like, this is a false confession. This kid

1605
01:28:58,040 --> 01:29:00,599
Speaker 1: is innocent. He shouldn't be on my case. Ode and

1606
01:29:00,640 --> 01:29:02,760
Speaker 1: then watching that foill go to prison. You know what

1607
01:29:02,800 --> 01:29:06,120
Speaker 1: I'm saying. So when you, when you, when you even

1608
01:29:06,160 --> 01:29:08,599
Speaker 1: into us, bring all those things up to say, this

1609
01:29:09,040 --> 01:29:14,559
Speaker 1: is that even if you find good men and good women,

1610
01:29:15,520 --> 01:29:19,200
Speaker 1: the system is flawed. And this is what we're trying

1611
01:29:19,240 --> 01:29:25,280
Speaker 1: to get to. The structure is wrong. Yes, the the

1612
01:29:25,280 --> 01:29:28,439
Speaker 1: the statement all cops are bastards, I think has been traditional,

1613
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:31,240
Speaker 1: like historically kind of unproductive in terms of actually getting

1614
01:29:31,240 --> 01:29:34,960
Speaker 1: people to to um confront the real issues of of

1615
01:29:34,960 --> 01:29:38,240
Speaker 1: of law enforcement. But what people mean by it is

1616
01:29:38,280 --> 01:29:41,240
Speaker 1: actually very accurate, which is that it is it is

1617
01:29:41,280 --> 01:29:45,639
Speaker 1: impossible to be like even if you are a good person,

1618
01:29:46,000 --> 01:29:48,800
Speaker 1: a nice person who is a police officer and is

1619
01:29:48,960 --> 01:29:51,640
Speaker 1: legitimately aware of the problems and policing and trying to

1620
01:29:51,720 --> 01:29:54,880
Speaker 1: do your best, you are also partaking and helping to

1621
01:29:55,000 --> 01:29:59,440
Speaker 1: con and helping to maintain and and further a system

1622
01:29:59,479 --> 01:30:04,000
Speaker 1: that is undamentally abusive and enforces for supremacy and a

1623
01:30:04,080 --> 01:30:06,439
Speaker 1: period we are not what what we're not saying is

1624
01:30:06,479 --> 01:30:09,840
Speaker 1: that all cops should never have a job in that

1625
01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:13,960
Speaker 1: that that like, there's there's homicide detectives who are good

1626
01:30:14,400 --> 01:30:17,439
Speaker 1: solving murders. When we get rid of the police and

1627
01:30:17,439 --> 01:30:19,400
Speaker 1: replace them with something, I want those people to still

1628
01:30:19,439 --> 01:30:23,680
Speaker 1: be solving murders because it's good. Yeah, Um, you know

1629
01:30:24,160 --> 01:30:26,760
Speaker 1: there are. If you know a a police officer who

1630
01:30:26,840 --> 01:30:29,360
Speaker 1: is a great person and is is an asset to

1631
01:30:29,360 --> 01:30:32,200
Speaker 1: the community, that person should probably still be doing a

1632
01:30:32,240 --> 01:30:35,040
Speaker 1: broadly similar a lot of the same things they're doing.

1633
01:30:35,360 --> 01:30:37,880
Speaker 1: But there shouldn't be you know, I talked to cops

1634
01:30:37,920 --> 01:30:39,200
Speaker 1: a lot. I've talked to a lot of cops will

1635
01:30:39,200 --> 01:30:42,880
Speaker 1: talk about like being forced to arrest people for simple

1636
01:30:42,880 --> 01:30:46,599
Speaker 1: possession of drugs, even though they personally agree with ending

1637
01:30:46,680 --> 01:30:50,200
Speaker 1: the drug war, and like that's the problem that you're

1638
01:30:50,240 --> 01:30:52,840
Speaker 1: forced to do it, and that's the we don't We

1639
01:30:52,840 --> 01:30:56,080
Speaker 1: We decided as a as a species that just following

1640
01:30:56,280 --> 01:30:59,720
Speaker 1: orders is not a justification for violating people's civil rights.

1641
01:31:00,920 --> 01:31:04,720
Speaker 1: Think about when we decided that and why, yes, and

1642
01:31:04,800 --> 01:31:07,720
Speaker 1: where it led and where it started. Yeah, yes, you

1643
01:31:07,720 --> 01:31:10,639
Speaker 1: are hearing the cries of both my father and my brother,

1644
01:31:10,680 --> 01:31:12,400
Speaker 1: who both were like, I don't know if I could

1645
01:31:12,400 --> 01:31:16,760
Speaker 1: do this much longer. Even in me trying right, I'm

1646
01:31:16,880 --> 01:31:18,640
Speaker 1: trying to do the right thing. I'm trying to be

1647
01:31:18,680 --> 01:31:21,479
Speaker 1: an advocate for these young people, like I'm doing my best,

1648
01:31:21,520 --> 01:31:23,880
Speaker 1: like at least they got somebody on their side, you

1649
01:31:23,960 --> 01:31:26,160
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, And you're but you're still like,

1650
01:31:26,280 --> 01:31:29,559
Speaker 1: I'm still I'm still throwing you to the wolves. I'm

1651
01:31:29,600 --> 01:31:33,479
Speaker 1: just giving you, you know, a protective jacket. But the

1652
01:31:33,520 --> 01:31:36,559
Speaker 1: point is I'm still throwing you to the wolves because

1653
01:31:36,600 --> 01:31:40,200
Speaker 1: the it's the the whole like it's what you're trying

1654
01:31:40,240 --> 01:31:43,520
Speaker 1: to say, It's like the whole thing needs a grenade.

1655
01:31:44,120 --> 01:31:46,599
Speaker 1: Because again, like you said, I want to be able

1656
01:31:46,640 --> 01:31:50,639
Speaker 1: to call somebody if my house is being broken into.

1657
01:31:50,960 --> 01:31:52,880
Speaker 1: Of course I want to be able to call somebody,

1658
01:31:52,920 --> 01:31:56,599
Speaker 1: But most likely who's breaking into my house is a

1659
01:31:56,640 --> 01:31:59,719
Speaker 1: meth head just trying to steal the PS four because

1660
01:31:59,720 --> 01:32:02,920
Speaker 1: he wants to hit. Don't kill the guy, like just

1661
01:32:03,400 --> 01:32:05,400
Speaker 1: I just want him out my house, and you know what,

1662
01:32:05,439 --> 01:32:07,200
Speaker 1: I could probably you know what, I probably won't call

1663
01:32:07,280 --> 01:32:09,240
Speaker 1: him because I could get him by my house because

1664
01:32:09,280 --> 01:32:12,559
Speaker 1: he's hot. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, it's

1665
01:32:12,640 --> 01:32:14,680
Speaker 1: it's this I mean and again when you actually we'll

1666
01:32:14,680 --> 01:32:16,760
Speaker 1: talk about this some next week. But when you look at,

1667
01:32:16,920 --> 01:32:19,800
Speaker 1: for example, homelessness, you find out that it costs the

1668
01:32:19,840 --> 01:32:23,200
Speaker 1: state less money to give homeless people homes then it

1669
01:32:23,280 --> 01:32:26,759
Speaker 1: costs to police and incarceraate them. It costs less money

1670
01:32:26,960 --> 01:32:31,160
Speaker 1: to give drug addicts drugs than to police them and

1671
01:32:31,200 --> 01:32:33,679
Speaker 1: to deal with the results of them stealing ship for drugs.

1672
01:32:33,720 --> 01:32:35,799
Speaker 1: They found that on like Denmark where they give heroin

1673
01:32:35,840 --> 01:32:38,559
Speaker 1: addicts heroin and it saves them huge amounts of money

1674
01:32:38,840 --> 01:32:42,400
Speaker 1: Toronto to Yeah, like safe injection zones. You don't have

1675
01:32:42,479 --> 01:32:45,240
Speaker 1: to police this ship. And in fact, most things shouldn't

1676
01:32:45,240 --> 01:32:49,479
Speaker 1: be policed. Maybe only violence should be policed exactly. If

1677
01:32:49,520 --> 01:32:51,800
Speaker 1: you're like, I try to like as as simple as

1678
01:32:51,800 --> 01:32:54,479
Speaker 1: we can make it. If my daughter comes in and

1679
01:32:54,560 --> 01:32:56,519
Speaker 1: she don't do her chores because she's got a cold,

1680
01:32:57,360 --> 01:33:02,719
Speaker 1: and I ground her rather then say here's some tail

1681
01:33:02,760 --> 01:33:05,720
Speaker 1: and all, like you would be like, that's ridiculous. You've

1682
01:33:05,720 --> 01:33:08,719
Speaker 1: for a ground her because she got a cold. That's stupid. Okay,

1683
01:33:08,760 --> 01:33:11,559
Speaker 1: that's putting an addict in prison, you know, what I'm saying.

1684
01:33:11,600 --> 01:33:14,880
Speaker 1: It's like, this is did do you? What do you? What?

1685
01:33:14,960 --> 01:33:20,479
Speaker 1: Are you grounding? That doesn't make sense? We're ranting. Yeah,

1686
01:33:20,520 --> 01:33:23,719
Speaker 1: we're ranting. And um it's it's time for some plug

1687
01:33:23,720 --> 01:33:29,400
Speaker 1: doubles to get plugged. Yes word uh all my instagrams

1688
01:33:29,400 --> 01:33:31,640
Speaker 1: and socials are prop hit pop. Go to prop hit

1689
01:33:31,680 --> 01:33:35,760
Speaker 1: pop dot com for poetry, rap, for some podcasts, for

1690
01:33:35,880 --> 01:33:40,400
Speaker 1: some sustainable merch, some cups, some coffee. If you want to,

1691
01:33:40,439 --> 01:33:43,160
Speaker 1: you want to support non corporate coffee on a coffee head,

1692
01:33:43,760 --> 01:33:46,280
Speaker 1: hit me up. Let's talk about like Jeff tweetye and

1693
01:33:46,720 --> 01:33:51,240
Speaker 1: cigarettos because I am the most unicorny black dude you'd

1694
01:33:51,280 --> 01:33:54,360
Speaker 1: ever meet that I can talk to you about cigarettes

1695
01:33:55,720 --> 01:34:00,000
Speaker 1: and I am. I'm gonna keep reading and writing about

1696
01:34:00,040 --> 01:34:03,200
Speaker 1: police for another week or so. Um and um, I

1697
01:34:03,200 --> 01:34:05,880
Speaker 1: don't know. We'll talk about Bill Cooper or something at

1698
01:34:05,960 --> 01:34:08,640
Speaker 1: some point. Yeah, we'll talk We have all for some

1699
01:34:08,760 --> 01:34:12,160
Speaker 1: like for something light, like a like a dictator. Yeah yeah, yeah,

1700
01:34:12,240 --> 01:34:17,439
Speaker 1: we'll talk about somebody somebody fun you know, well, somebody

1701
01:34:17,600 --> 01:34:20,760
Speaker 1: not connected to my own safety. And yeah, well we'll

1702
01:34:20,760 --> 01:34:24,120
Speaker 1: do We'll talk about chairman now or somebody somebody here. Yeah,

1703
01:34:24,160 --> 01:34:26,880
Speaker 1: everybody loves a good chairman mouse story, Oh my dad,

1704
01:34:26,920 --> 01:34:32,320
Speaker 1: or maybe Tito Tito. Yeah, yeah, Tito was cool as hell.

1705
01:34:32,360 --> 01:34:33,600
Speaker 1: I mean he was a monster, but he was a

1706
01:34:33,600 --> 01:34:38,080
Speaker 1: cool monster. Still talking about bastards, but the point is yeah, yeah,

1707
01:34:38,160 --> 01:34:41,519
Speaker 1: Well we'll do something more lighthearted. But um you can

1708
01:34:41,560 --> 01:34:43,639
Speaker 1: find us online it behind the Bastards dot com, where

1709
01:34:43,680 --> 01:34:46,920
Speaker 1: there will be sources for this episode, including the really

1710
01:34:46,960 --> 01:34:50,280
Speaker 1: important book The Color of the Third Degree, um, and

1711
01:34:50,320 --> 01:34:53,120
Speaker 1: all the other really important book The End of Policing,

1712
01:34:53,240 --> 01:34:56,760
Speaker 1: both of which are important, if not easy reading, well, actually,

1713
01:34:56,840 --> 01:34:58,720
Speaker 1: end u Policing is very easy reading The Color of

1714
01:34:58,720 --> 01:35:03,320
Speaker 1: the Third Degree is some rough ship. Um. Yeah, and

1715
01:35:03,400 --> 01:35:05,920
Speaker 1: you can find me on Twitter at I right, okay,

1716
01:35:06,160 --> 01:35:13,040
Speaker 1: and go be a good person and disband um the

1717
01:35:13,080 --> 01:35:16,280
Speaker 1: American system of policing. Um, I'll do do both of

1718
01:35:16,320 --> 01:35:24,719
Speaker 1: those things ideally today, Amen, shall we collect offering? Behind

1719
01:35:24,720 --> 01:35:26,880
Speaker 1: the Police is a production of I Heart Radio. For

1720
01:35:26,960 --> 01:35:29,479
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart

1721
01:35:29,520 --> 01:35:33,520
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1722
01:35:34,200 --> 01:35:39,000
Speaker 1: What girls in the Forest, our imagination and our family bonds.

1723
01:35:39,560 --> 01:35:42,439
Speaker 1: The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest

1724
01:35:42,560 --> 01:35:45,400
Speaker 1: near you and discover the Forest dot org brought to

1725
01:35:45,439 --> 01:35:48,360
Speaker 1: you by the United States Forest Service and the AD Council.

1726
01:35:49,400 --> 01:35:54,200
Speaker 1: What girls in the forest, our imagination, and our family bonds.

1727
01:35:54,760 --> 01:35:57,679
Speaker 1: The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest

1728
01:35:57,760 --> 01:36:00,600
Speaker 1: near you and discover the forest dot Org brought to

1729
01:36:00,640 --> 01:36:03,559
Speaker 1: you by the United States Fourth Service and the AD Council.

1730
01:36:04,320 --> 01:36:06,920
Speaker 1: After thirty years, it's time to return to the halls

1731
01:36:06,960 --> 01:36:09,320
Speaker 1: of West Beverly High and hang out at the peach pit.

1732
01:36:09,520 --> 01:36:12,400
Speaker 1: On the podcast nine O two one o MG, visit

1733
01:36:12,479 --> 01:36:15,000
Speaker 1: Jenny Garth and Tori Spelling for a rewatch of the

1734
01:36:15,120 --> 01:36:17,599
Speaker 1: hit series Beverly Hills nine O two one oh. From

1735
01:36:17,640 --> 01:36:20,920
Speaker 1: the very beginning, we get to tell the fans all

1736
01:36:20,960 --> 01:36:23,479
Speaker 1: of the behind the scenes stories to actually happen, so

1737
01:36:23,640 --> 01:36:26,120
Speaker 1: they know what happened on camera obviously, but we can

1738
01:36:26,160 --> 01:36:28,479
Speaker 1: tell them all the good stuff that happened off camera.

1739
01:36:28,600 --> 01:36:30,640
Speaker 1: Listen to nine O two one O MG on the

1740
01:36:30,640 --> 01:36:33,479
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1741
01:36:33,520 --> 01:36:34,240
Speaker 1: your podcasts.