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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Good Mom's Bad Choices.

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Speaker 2: I'm Erica and I'm Leela, and Happy.

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Speaker 1: Wednesday, guys.

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Speaker 3: Hope you guys are having a great week and staying

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Speaker 3: warm or staying cool, depending on where the fuck you are.

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Speaker 1: We're in New York City and trying.

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Speaker 2: To stay warm aka not sick.

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Speaker 3: Well, if you hear Jimille's voice, you can tell that

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Speaker 3: she didn't accomplish that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sick.

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Speaker 3: We have a really special guest today and I'm really

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Speaker 3: excited to share with you guys.

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Speaker 1: We have Jody Patterson, who is a social activist.

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Speaker 3: A mother of five, author and just overall amazing woman.

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Speaker 1: I was to be a circus acrobat.

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Speaker 3: Yeah I learned that. Yeah when did that have true?

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Speaker 3: Years and years ago? But it was something that I loved,

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Speaker 3: that was a gymnast. And then I went into the

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Speaker 3: circus and I was one of those like acrobats on

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Speaker 3: the top of the top of the pile of people,

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Speaker 3: flipping around. That's a that's amazing, it was fun. How

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Speaker 3: did you even learn? Did you go to like acrobat school?

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Speaker 1: I went to circus.

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Speaker 3: I trained with the circus, trained with the circus in

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Speaker 3: New York. It was when the Big Apple Circus first started,

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Speaker 3: so I think we were in Brooklyn and I trained

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Speaker 3: with all the like animals and.

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Speaker 1: The acrobats and the jugglers.

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Speaker 3: It was a lot of fun, but it was it

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Speaker 3: was based in gymnastics and then it kind of just

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Speaker 3: expanded into circus training.

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Speaker 1: That's amazing.

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Speaker 3: I was told to Realiz was like texting her yesterday.

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Speaker 3: I was like, this woman has literally done everything. I'm like,

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Speaker 3: how is she good at everything?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Exam.

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Speaker 3: I was like chance for went on a road trip,

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Speaker 3: Like she sounds like b type of gap. I'm like,

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Speaker 3: why didn't she a Studios, DeAngelo, Diddy, Vibey music?

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Speaker 1: Fashion?

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Speaker 3: But you know what, all of the with all of

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Speaker 3: those things, they seemed right in the in those moments,

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Speaker 3: and I think right now, I can't even imagine myself

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Speaker 3: in fashion. I can't imagine myself in music. I can't

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Speaker 3: imagine myself in beauty. You know. The circus is many,

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Speaker 3: many moons ago, and it feels like all of that

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Speaker 3: led to what I'm doing now.

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Speaker 1: That's amazing. As I should.

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Speaker 4: I feel like more women, more women should be like

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Speaker 4: encouraged to try more things. I think so often we're

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Speaker 4: put in a box like if you're good at this,

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Speaker 4: you can't possibly be good at other things, you know, like.

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Speaker 1: Or pick a path, yeah, or even.

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Speaker 3: Like that whole thing where you're supposed to stay at

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Speaker 3: a company for X amount of years before you move

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Speaker 3: so that you're incredible. Yeah, I'm like, why, I don't

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Speaker 3: think I've ever stayed at a company for longer than

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Speaker 3: six or twelve months.

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Speaker 1: Wow, I try to like measure it out.

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Speaker 3: I think I like, by twelve months in, I had

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Speaker 3: a new idea, I had a new hash, and they

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Speaker 3: all just sort of fell.

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Speaker 1: Into place, and so I don't think I stayed anywhere

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Speaker 1: very long.

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Speaker 2: Pep.

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Speaker 3: I think people must have thought it was flighty, but

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Speaker 3: it was incremental learning. How do you think that you

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Speaker 3: were able to like what was growing up?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 3: What gave you that confidence that you can just kind

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Speaker 3: of do anything? I mean, I read your book and

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Speaker 3: I know that, thank you. Yeah, And I know that

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Speaker 3: you come from a strong line of women and a

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Speaker 3: very strong father as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you know, well, most a lot of the.

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Speaker 3: People in my family were activists, so they weren't tied

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Speaker 3: to corporations. They were driven by ideas and moral ideals,

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Speaker 3: and so I think with that idea that we were

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Speaker 3: that I was more attached to, like concepts and you know,

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Speaker 3: the way we want the world to be, not a company.

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Speaker 3: Gave me freedom to move around, so I think, uh,

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Speaker 3: the activist in my family and then a lot of

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Speaker 3: us were entrepreneurs as well. So I never really saw myself.

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Speaker 3: I saw myself as the brand, not the company as

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Speaker 3: the brand. So when I was working with Dangelo or

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Speaker 3: when I was working with Zach Posen, I felt like

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Speaker 3: I was sort of the same person moving through bringing

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Speaker 3: them my talent, you know, kind of offering them my

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Speaker 3: talent as opposed to like trying to fit into their culture.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if that was the best thing or

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Speaker 3: the worst thing, but I don't know. It was just

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Speaker 3: I never felt fear. I guess I think that's why

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Speaker 3: you've been able to bounce around, because because you lead

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Speaker 3: not with fear. My grandmother I'm now remembering everything, and

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Speaker 3: my grandmother told me one year.

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Speaker 1: She goes, I think I was just divorcing my.

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Speaker 3: First husband, and she goes, there are so many men

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Speaker 3: and so many jobs.

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Speaker 1: Never cry over either, And that's the true. And she

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Speaker 1: married five times and had this really robust career. So

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I have time five times one man,

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Speaker 1: she married twice. It comes how times she got a

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Speaker 1: bad rat? Yeah, she did a bad back. I've been

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Speaker 1: married twice. Would you be married again? Absolutely? Are you

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Speaker 1: a twoty? Oh for sure? Oh I'm gonna get married.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I just watched me trad in the traditional sense.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I've never had a traditional ceremony.

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Speaker 3: Oh okay, so I was th My first marriage was

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Speaker 3: two men named Surgemacker.

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Speaker 1: I met to the courthouse. I was in like some gen.

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Speaker 3: I think we were like wearing jeans, you know, two

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Speaker 3: minutes before going to work. And then my second relationship,

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Speaker 3: we never married legally at all, which is that bunch

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Speaker 3: of children that lived together for fifteen.

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Speaker 1: Years and this one, you know, I would love it.

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Speaker 3: I love ceremonies, so that would be really romantic to

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Speaker 3: me and important.

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Speaker 1: But I'm also.

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Speaker 3: Really practical, and I've got kids who need tuition, right, So, like,

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Speaker 3: I don't know, do I wanna pay a hundreds of

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Speaker 3: dollars for.

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Speaker 1: Some salad and some deserves for books?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: It is? It is?

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I do have these fantasies about family and

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Speaker 3: friends joining in on a ceremony from.

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Speaker 1: My next love.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think.

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Speaker 3: I mean I was almost married once and I almost

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Speaker 3: spend a ton of money. Thank God, thank you God

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Speaker 3: for looking out because it didn't happen. Thank you God

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Speaker 3: for so many reasons. But I feel looking back on

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Speaker 3: that now, I think about it. If I were ever

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Speaker 3: to do that again, what would I do? And honestly,

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Speaker 3: I'm cool with my backyard. Oh that's what I was thinking.

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Speaker 3: I just want a backyard boogie. I want, I do

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Speaker 3: want a nice ring and spend that money on that ring.

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Speaker 1: Let's go on really dope vacation.

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Speaker 3: I think that's kind of what a lot of people say,

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Speaker 3: because I mean, we had this my boyfriend. I have

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Speaker 3: this conversation all the time about not spending money on

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Speaker 3: plates and dishes and salmon, right, doing something backyard and

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Speaker 3: doing something with my kids and with him on a

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Speaker 3: trip afterwards to travel and then.

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Speaker 1: Something really pretty on my hand.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I love Chory. So do I what woman does it?

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Speaker 2: Does your boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: Have any kids? Yeah he's a daughter. Okay, nice. How

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Speaker 1: do you guys integrate the family dynamic? Like did you wait?

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Speaker 3: Or like like how long did you wait? If not, like,

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Speaker 3: how did it a whole. How did it all work?

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Speaker 3: Because everyone has their own, you know process. So we

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Speaker 3: met when we were working together. He's an activist, I'm

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Speaker 3: an activist. He speaks on trans rites and and and

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Speaker 3: and trans lives and I speak on the same topics.

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Speaker 3: And so we've worked together and shared the stage together

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Speaker 3: for years, and then we became really good friends. And

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Speaker 3: then we started seeing each other. We were both going

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Speaker 3: through quick cooks.

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Speaker 1: We both have children. I have five, he has one.

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Speaker 3: He has He lives in New York now his daughter

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Speaker 3: lives in Canada. So there's a lot of distance between

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Speaker 3: my kids and his child, so they don't they haven't

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Speaker 3: integrated yet. He's integrated fully with my kids. And how

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Speaker 3: did we do it? We did care well, We did

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Speaker 3: it respectfully. I think I asked my children even before

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Speaker 3: I met him, how would they feel if I had

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Speaker 3: a boyfriend? They unanimously said absolutely, sounds great.

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Speaker 1: Oh really yeah? Yeah.

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Speaker 3: They have like big smiles on their face. They're like,

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Speaker 3: I said, do you know what a boyfriend means? Cause

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Speaker 3: they were so happy about it. I was like, do

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Speaker 3: you understand what I'll be like sharing space with him

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Speaker 3: and he'll be in the house and we'll be in

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Speaker 3: the same bed together and kissing. You're like, we understand, mom, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: we get it. So they were ready and he's a

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Speaker 3: great guy and it worked out pretty smoothly.

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Speaker 1: That's beautiful. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, we wanted to play

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Speaker 1: a little.

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Speaker 3: Game with you to just, you know, get to know

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Speaker 3: you pretty quickly and can let our audience get to

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Speaker 3: know you quickly and then take it from there. So

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Speaker 3: it's this game called trigger And basically what we do

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Speaker 3: is we say a word and you say the first

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Speaker 3: thing that comes to mind. So it's try to go quick. Okay,

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Speaker 3: don't don't overthink it. Okay, you're ready? Yeap, love dick.

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Speaker 1: Oh Okay, I don't know. I don't know why it

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Speaker 1: just came to my mouth.

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Speaker 3: Okay, marriage, love, purpose, me, College, Spellman, black Women, Spellman,

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Speaker 3: Zodiac sign, Leo Forever, chewing with your mouth open, Spellman,

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Speaker 3: doctor Cole, Loyalty, Sisterhood, celebrity crush, don't have favorite food, lamb,

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Speaker 3: the United States, This is America. Pregnancy ooh yes, gender obsolete,

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Speaker 3: worst habit.

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Speaker 1: Mm mmm okay, best memory.

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Speaker 3: Ooh, five babies, four births and making them Vibe magazine.

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Speaker 3: Mm it was a weird time. I don't have a

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Speaker 3: word for that. That was like, it took me on

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Speaker 3: a pause for a minute.

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Speaker 1: Divorce because I was going through a divorce, Okay.

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Speaker 3: Parenthood, mothering, building, sex, tonight strippers, cash, equality.

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Speaker 1: For real boxers or briefs, briefs, white briefs, white women.

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Speaker 1: That's them. That's the.

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Speaker 3: LGBTQ plus my family. Drink of choice, tequila. Hey, favorite

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Speaker 3: music genre Revolution, Joy Today my phone just died. Oh

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Speaker 3: that's funny, Joy and we're.

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Speaker 1: Doing We're done.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well that was cool. That was short live There's

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Speaker 3: but twenty more. But you gotta keep your phone, like girl,

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Speaker 3: it's always dying with literally like I'm dying while I'm

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Speaker 3: plugged in, Like it's going down while I'm still plugged in.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand this. It's addicted. Yeah, on it constantly.

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Speaker 3: So you said your family LGBTQ. Obviously you said you're

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Speaker 3: a transactivist. Me and Jamila like we need to be educated,

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Speaker 3: and we wanted to have you on because we need education.

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Speaker 1: We need to understand.

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Speaker 3: First of all, your son, I know, is does he

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Speaker 3: still he goes by Penelope?

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Speaker 1: What are his pronouns? He him his So I had

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Speaker 1: a I have five children.

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Speaker 3: My first is a girl named Georgia, and she's actually

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Speaker 3: gender queer. I found that out recently, and she described

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Speaker 3: what that means to her.

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Speaker 1: Can you explain what that means? Sure, it's I think

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Speaker 1: it's a loose term.

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Speaker 3: It's not such a specific term. But the way she

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Speaker 3: described it, sometimes she feels masculine and sometimes she feels feminine.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes she presents feminine, sometimes she presents masculine. Gender queer

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Speaker 3: queer meaning not exact, not straight necessarily. And then my

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Speaker 3: second child is Cassius. He's a boy assist gender boy

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Speaker 3: identifies he is. My third child is Penelope. I assumed

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Speaker 3: girl because of the anatomy, but by three Penelope clearly said,

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Speaker 3: my mom and a boy.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a girl.

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Speaker 3: And then over the several years and months of research,

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Speaker 3: months and years of research, I realized that Penelope is

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Speaker 3: a transgender boy or as a boy who identifies as

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Speaker 3: a transgender person, which means that the doctor prescribed Penelope

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Speaker 3: girl because of Penelope's physical body, but Penelope identifies as

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Speaker 3: boy because of the way penelope Is brain identifies him,

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Speaker 3: so he's trans. And then my child is a boy

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Speaker 3: named a boy who's sisgender and identifies boy. And then

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Speaker 3: I've adopted a boy, a lot of boy, a lot

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Speaker 3: of people, one basically a girl and four boys. But

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Speaker 3: so yes, and so I have a gender career kid,

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Speaker 3: I have a trans kid. I'm in a queer relationship.

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Speaker 3: My boyfriend is transgender. So I feel like we're at

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Speaker 3: lgbtqu I have plus family. Oh wow, yeah, if you

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Speaker 3: keep talking, you will find out new things.

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Speaker 4: So your boyfriend was born female, I would never say that,

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Speaker 4: but well.

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Speaker 2: Born anatomy anatomy.

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Speaker 3: Wise, I wouldn't even say that. I would just say

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Speaker 3: that that he's a trans man.

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Speaker 1: That's how I say it.

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Speaker 3: You know, I don't really talk about his body, or

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Speaker 3: your body, or my children's bodies or people I love.

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Speaker 3: I just don't like let them talk about their own bodies.

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Speaker 3: But I would say it's a transman, and if he

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Speaker 3: understands what if we understand what transgender means, then we understand.

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Speaker 1: The implications of that.

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Speaker 4: Prior to your experience with Penelope, W would you have

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Speaker 4: been open to that relationship you think?

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Speaker 3: I don't even know if I would have thought about it.

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Speaker 3: I don't even know if I knew. I didn't know

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Speaker 3: the word transgender. I didn't really understand what queer mean. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I've been I'm an open person.

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Speaker 1: I grew up in New York. I'm like a native

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Speaker 1: New Yorker. I wasn't a circus.

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Speaker 3: But I think that my flexibility wasn't around gender in

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Speaker 3: that way. I just did didn't think of it around gender.

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Speaker 3: I thought gender was pretty straightforward boy or girl. And

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Speaker 3: it wasn't until my son I defied that that I

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Speaker 3: started to open up my life. And so in opening

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Speaker 3: up my life and trying to understand my son, I

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Speaker 3: opened up to new people. I've just met a hundreds

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Speaker 3: more people. My career changed. How I spend my money,

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Speaker 3: how I allocate money has changed. I support companies that

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Speaker 3: are LGBT friendly. Where I send my kids to school

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Speaker 3: has been redirected. I send them send them to schools

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Speaker 3: that are LGBT friendly. How I vacation, we vacation in

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Speaker 3: places that are LGBTQAI friendly. And because of that, the

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Speaker 3: people I've met are much wider than ever before. So

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Speaker 3: you know, it's not like I was searching for any

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Speaker 3: particular person, but my pool of people and experiences is

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Speaker 3: much wider than ever before, just because I'm not because

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Speaker 3: I'm more open. I'm seeing things. Like thinking about it,

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Speaker 3: we only see a certain fraction of life. We're only

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Speaker 3: seeing a certain thing, a certain reality, But there are

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Speaker 3: multiple realities happening at the same time. We just don't

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Speaker 3: know of them. And I think a lot of straight

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Speaker 3: people just don't know queer life.

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Speaker 1: Well, how would you describe gender versus identity? Hmm?

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Speaker 3: Sometimes I feel like I want to put gender on

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Speaker 3: plause some because I'm not sure to say, oh, she's

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Speaker 3: a girl or oh he's a boy.

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Speaker 1: What does that tell us? I don't know if that

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Speaker 1: tells us anything.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if it's enough, because how do girls

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Speaker 3: think and how do boys behave?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Identity for me is a bit stronger.

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Speaker 3: It tells you how I see myself right, what I

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Speaker 3: like in this world, how I wanna interact, the paths

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Speaker 3: I wanna take. So, although gender is is a reality,

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Speaker 3: I like to put it on a pause. Sometimes it

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Speaker 3: doesn't always have to be in our language. Some languages

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Speaker 3: don't even use gender pronouns. So I think, you know,

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Speaker 3: I I s E every now and then I'm like, uh,

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Speaker 3: gender's OUTSI lead, And I think it's also rigged personally,

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Speaker 3: well absolute, I mean, I agree. I mean I mean

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Speaker 3: to me to have this conversation all the time about

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Speaker 3: cause we have daughters.

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Speaker 1: So we have two girls and they're both four, she's

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Speaker 1: about to be five. I'm a most both five too.

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Speaker 3: But like the other day, or maybe like a few

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Speaker 3: months ago, I was in my daughter's room and she

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Speaker 3: was playing with these I didn't even buy her this shit,

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Speaker 3: but she was playing with like baby dolls and the stroller,

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Speaker 3: and I was like, how does Epiphany? I'm like, why

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Speaker 3: are you doing this? Why why am I allowing this?

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Speaker 3: What's going on? Like who was deciding that? So you

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Speaker 3: feel like this is your role as a girl, that

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Speaker 3: you're supposed to take care of babies and be motherly

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Speaker 3: and if that's it, that comes naturally.

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Speaker 4: Little kitchens and fascinets and shit like that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I think so I saw my Penelope

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Speaker 3: reject everything pink all dresses, no, you know, zero skirts,

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Speaker 3: reject real it wasn't like into dolls, wanted basketballs and

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Speaker 3: trucks and really wanted to mimic brother and not really

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Speaker 3: want to be around mom. Honestly, for the first few years,

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Speaker 3: wanted to be around dad. And then really at one

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Speaker 3: point said Mama, I love you, but I don't want

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Speaker 3: to be I want to be pop up. So I

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Speaker 3: think that, you know, but I have another child who

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Speaker 3: identifies as boy as well, who likes makeup, right, and

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Speaker 3: you know, we'll go with his would love to get

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Speaker 3: a blow like a flat iron to his hair, sort

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Speaker 3: of like in the vein of David Bowie. So you know,

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Speaker 3: I don't know about these things that we call girl

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Speaker 3: things or boy things. I think that we just have

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Speaker 3: things that we like to do, and we do them,

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Speaker 3: or hopefully people will, you know, do the things that

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Speaker 3: they want to do without the weight of visit a

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Speaker 3: girl thing or a boy thing. If you look at it,

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Speaker 3: and we if you, if you really look at it,

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Speaker 3: it's pretty silly. No, truly, it's really silly. We put

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Speaker 3: these old ideas on young minds. Girl diapers have butterflies,

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Speaker 3: boy diapers have like superheroes, right, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: I mean it's like it's pretty heavy. But in my house,

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Speaker 3: I have not s. I have not found that all

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Speaker 3: boys like trucks and all girls like dolls.

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Speaker 1: I have a mixed up did y is your household

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Speaker 1: like gender nutrient it's just whatever they I would say.

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Speaker 3: I walk in and it looks pretty traditional, like, you know,

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Speaker 3: it doesn't scream a different different, It doesn't scream queer,

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Speaker 3: it doesn't scream like.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, we're not eating transgender spaghettie.

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Speaker 3: You just walk in the house, and I've got it

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Speaker 3: looks like a very traditional house. I've got order, you know,

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Speaker 3: I need. I have five kids, so I like coats

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Speaker 3: hung up and shoes lined up, and beds are made,

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Speaker 3: and refrigerator usually is stacked, and I'm making dinner. It

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Speaker 3: is a pretty organized and orderly housew However, if you

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Speaker 3: sort of peel back, you know, and sit with us

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Speaker 3: for a while, you'll realize that.

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Speaker 1: We're doing things.

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Speaker 3: Each person is doing things in their own way. So

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Speaker 3: the kid is really athletic. He's a star track athlete,

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Speaker 3: and he's a star I'm karate champion. He's a star

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Speaker 3: basketball player. And he'll go into my closet and and

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Speaker 3: pull out a bad outfit and put on a dress

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Speaker 3: and some high heels.

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Speaker 1: My pain is nails. He might fly out of his hair.

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Speaker 3: You know, I don't know, So I don't I don't

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Speaker 3: have an answer for do we are we like a

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Speaker 3: gender normative house or gender fluid house. I just think also,

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Speaker 3: I think all families have gender fluidity within them. They

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Speaker 3: have trans stories within them, they have queer stories. We

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Speaker 3: just haven't pulled back the layers. I think most people

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Speaker 3: don't have the language too, because I know I don't.

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Speaker 3: And that's why I want to have you on, because

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Speaker 3: I was like, I know I'm gonna say something that's

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Speaker 3: not correct, and I but I want to educate and

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Speaker 3: I want our listeners too, because I know that we

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Speaker 3: have listeners who who whose kids are are trying to

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Speaker 3: figure it out. And as parents who who who maybe

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Speaker 3: grew up religious.

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Speaker 1: Or even in the black community.

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Speaker 3: I mean it's like, we don't talk about this and

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Speaker 3: shit like and we really just want kids. I think,

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Speaker 3: you know, and I can speak from just as a mom.

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Speaker 3: We want to we want to protect our kids. We

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Speaker 3: want to give them a real take on life and

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Speaker 3: not sort of confuse them with.

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Speaker 1: Things that don't serve them.

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Speaker 3: And so I get that idea of like this that

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Speaker 3: where people feel that this idea of examining gender is

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Speaker 3: a useless kind of confusing topic.

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Speaker 1: But what I found is.

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Speaker 3: If you really just let your kids, if you listen

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Speaker 3: to your kids. They're telling you those old rules don't apply,

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Speaker 3: so we can force them into those old rules. See

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Speaker 3: how far that goes, right, Usually it ends with like

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Speaker 3: suicidal tendencies.

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Speaker 1: Depression and depression, addiction, homelessness.

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Speaker 3: All those kinds of things come from not being seen

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Speaker 3: and not fulfilling your purpose oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes.

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Speaker 1: And so I think, you know, if.

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Speaker 3: Black folks are really ripe and prime to handle this,

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Speaker 3: because we've always been talking about self determination. Black folks

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Speaker 3: have always said, I don't care what you call me.

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Speaker 3: I know who I am. I don't care how you

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Speaker 3: see me. I know who I am. And that's the

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Speaker 3: biggest thing. Like my kid is saying, Mama, let me

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Speaker 3: tell you who I am. I'm a kid who likes this,

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Speaker 3: and I'm a kid who wants his name to be

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Speaker 3: to remain Penelope. And I see myself as a boy,

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Speaker 3: my kid who likes basketball and writing. And so I

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Speaker 3: can just accept that it's no big deal in the

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Speaker 3: end of it all, Like I want my kid to

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Speaker 3: be alive and happy, so I.

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Speaker 1: Can I can take all that.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I find that even like in my dad,

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Speaker 3: he's from the South, he's very traditional, and he would

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Speaker 3: argue that kids are too young to know what.

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Speaker 1: She want and who they are.

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Speaker 3: And when I was reading your book, and I do disagree,

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Speaker 3: and we've had debates for ages and ages, but when

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Speaker 3: I was reading your book, Penelope was two years old

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Speaker 3: when she when he's sorry, started to it's actually the

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Speaker 3: exact time when the brain it's a scientific reject the

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Speaker 3: process the things you were trying to put on him,

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Speaker 3: the shoes.

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Speaker 1: And the clothes.

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Speaker 3: But all brains, it's not even just Penelope's brain or

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Speaker 3: transgender brains, all brains. If you study brain activity, around

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Speaker 3: three years old start to identify. They say who am I.

440
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: In this world?

441
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 3: They place the person itself in the world. So around

442
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 3: three years old, the brain has a process of identification,

443
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 3: and then again several years later, and then again, so

444
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 3: there's multiple stages of identification. And three is around that

445
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,400
Speaker 3: first time. So Penelope's like just right on time. It's

446
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 3: not he wasn't actually super early. He just was very

447
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 3: verbal about what the brain naturally was doing.

448
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 2: He was able to express himself totally.

449
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 1: And that's the kind of thing we have.

450
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I think it's interesting, like it all

451
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 4: really boils down to programming, and I always think about

452
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 4: it as like this is not a good way to

453
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 4: put it, but it makes it really clear, like domesticating

454
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,879
Speaker 4: a pet, you know, you know, you know, we have

455
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 4: a child and then we socialize them, and then you know,

456
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,159
Speaker 4: based on what the doctor checks off at birth, then.

457
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 1: You get that blanket and ugly hat has a bon

458
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 1: you know.

459
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 4: And even as a child, I was super like I

460
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 4: remember not understanding like I've always liked women, I always

461
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 4: liked people.

462
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 2: I'm pan sexual.

463
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 1: Someone told me I was queer, but I'm not really

464
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 1: sure what that means yet, and what is pan sexual mean?

465
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 2: I like people, it doesn't matter, like how do you identify?

466
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 3: And I that would be that would fall into the queer.

467
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 3: It's like undefinable. It's not you can't put me here

468
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:16,880
Speaker 3: and there.

469
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 4: And I remember asking like my parents, like I was

470
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 4: supposed to like people for people. If I put a

471
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 4: wall up and I started communicating on the other side

472
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 4: of the wall with someone without voice or without seeing them,

473
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 4: if I love them, that's all that would matter, right.

474
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 4: That was literally how I remember. I was probably like six,

475
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 4: so it seemed what did they.

476
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: Say, you know, my dad like, yeah, this is a

477
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: great quote.

478
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 3: I was reading it on my boyfriend's Instagram page. It says,

479
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,199
Speaker 3: not queer like gay, Queer like escaping definition, Queer like

480
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 3: some sort of fluidity and timeless and limitlessness at once.

481
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 3: Queer like a freedom too strange to be conquered, Queer

482
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 3: like fearlessness to imagine what love can look like and

483
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 3: pursue it.

484
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 4: I think, how beautiful, Yeah, how beautiful to just love

485
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 4: And I think without expectation, without like, oh, well, you

486
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 4: have to be a man for me to love you.

487
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 2: You have to be a CIS man for me to

488
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 2: marry you.

489
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 4: And because that's how we associate, like procreation, what really

490
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 4: spoke to me? And you're like your book was just like,

491
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 4: we have children and they come straight from the source,

492
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 4: and then we put our bullshit on them. And in reality,

493
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 4: if we sit back and actually let our children guide us,

494
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 4: they are closer to the source.

495
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 1: So they're going to be more pure, they're.

496
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 4: Going to be less tainted with these social ideas that

497
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 4: we've adopted, not even realizing we've adopted them from from society,

498
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 4: from religion, from our parents, from TV. And I'm like,

499
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 4: how beautiful when you allow your kid to just narrate

500
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 4: and navigate themselves in an intuitive manner, and you're intune

501
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 4: and has a mom to be like cool.

502
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: Do you know what I I couldn't have said it better.

503
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 3: It's really I think you nailed it, and that intuitively

504
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 3: I mean it.

505
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: It could have gone either way.

506
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 3: Many times a kid will tell you who they are

507
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 3: and the parent will just reinforce what they want that

508
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 3: kid to be, and I probably did it.

509
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 1: For the first two years.

510
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 3: I was just trying to push Penelope into being a

511
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 3: really smart, witty, confident girl, cause I was like, oh

512
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 3: my god, you're like, you're a girl.

513
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: You're gonna be a feminist. It's gonna be great.

514
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 3: And I thought that that was what I was raising,

515
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,479
Speaker 3: a feminist, but when Penelope kept rejecting that, and then

516
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 3: it became a point where when Penelope and I sat

517
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 3: down and Penelope, like you said, came in peace and

518
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 3: just said, Mom, I'm not a girl, I'm a boy.

519
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 3: And then I listened to everything Penelope wanted to tell

520
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 3: me about himself, and it was not what I had

521
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 3: thought of Penelope. It was a he was a different person,

522
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 3: and for some reason, in that moment, I heard him

523
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,400
Speaker 3: and I wasn't interested at that point in making him

524
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 3: into a really smart feminist female.

525
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: Now he's a really smart feminist male.

526
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 3: He's still he's I think feminism is still the guiding

527
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 3: principle of my life and my family. But yeah, so,

528
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 3: I think yet we sometimes there's just a moment when

529
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 3: it's like nothing else.

530
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 1: Is more compelling than just supporting your kid.

531
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 4: And I think also like supporting your children, it has

532
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 4: a lot to say with how you support yourself, Oh totally,

533
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 4: and how and how and if you've given yourself the

534
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 4: space and the opportunity to to think.

535
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 2: Freely and to be freely.

536
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 4: And I think the problem is as adults, we don't

537
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 4: and we.

538
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: Don't allow ourselves.

539
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 4: We haven't allowed ourselves the freedom to unprogram or to

540
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,439
Speaker 4: deprogram and unthink the things we've been taught like. I

541
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 4: think a lot of the most important part of the

542
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 4: podcast for me is I'd like, sorry, my voice.

543
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 1: Is so annoying.

544
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 4: I'd like for everyone everywhere in any episode to be like, damn,

545
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 4: I was taught like this.

546
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 1: Does that really serve me?

547
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 2: Does that really make sense?

548
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 3: And I think we hold onto things until they no

549
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 3: longer serve us, right, And I would have kept that

550
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 3: idea going that Penelope was a proud feminist girl who

551
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 3: would eventually be a proud feminist woman, but at a

552
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 3: certain point that.

553
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: That narrative was no longer serving us because Penelope didn't

554
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: want to live. So who was that serving, right? And

555
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: so I think when we get to the point.

556
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 3: Where it's no longer serving us, we quickly hopefully switch gears.

557
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: And then it's what you said.

558
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 3: It was so interesting about how you know that freedom

559
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 3: becomes your freedom. I almost saw Penelo lippy when Penelope

560
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 3: was asking me to help him be boy. I was

561
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 3: almost hearing it as Jody helped Jody helping Jody. It

562
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 3: was that primal, like I could not separate in that

563
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 3: moment helping my son and helping myself. So if I

564
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 3: had not helped him, it would have been like dropping

565
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 3: the ball on myself. M And then from that moment

566
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 3: we were just like, you know, attached for many years

567
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 3: together going through each day, which was great for Penelope

568
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 3: and problematic really cause I have five kids.

569
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 2: M oh right. So they were like, hey, mom, what's up.

570
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,239
Speaker 3: How did your partner at the time deal with you know,

571
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 3: Penelope one son.

572
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, we never our family never lost love. We're not

573
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: the walk away kind of people. We're not the we s.

574
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 3: We might have divorces, but we have not really s.

575
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 3: We don't really severe tize completely. And so I'll say

576
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 3: from the Ghanaian family on Dad's side and my side

577
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 3: is Southern Black American. Everyone stayed close to Penelope. Everyone

578
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 3: supports Penelope. Some people don't use the word transgender, and

579
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 3: they still haven't. You know, years later they won't say

580
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 3: trans They do always use the right pronouns M.

581
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: But you know there's been just.

582
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 3: We've supported in different ways. I mean, not everyone is

583
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 3: an advocate right right.

584
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 2: Right, but they love them.

585
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: They love their family for sure. So Dad was cool.

586
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 3: Dad is one hundred percent supportive of his son. Is

587
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 3: hands on every day.

588
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: You know, I was gonna ask you, Oh, so you

589
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: hadn't had to cut anybody off. Oh no, I've I've.

590
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 3: Drop people, not family members, but you know there were

591
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 3: and I was ready to because I kept saying, if

592
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 3: you can't remember to use the R pronouns, then don't

593
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 3: come around right, right, damn it, right, Like just get

594
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 3: the pronouns down or just take the long route in

595
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 3: the congress in the sentence, and don't use any pronouns, right, right, Like,

596
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 3: and that takes an extra five minutes, but that's cool, right, say,

597
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 3: if Penelope wants a sandwich, can you please get penelope

598
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 3: sandwich from the cabinet and Penelope would like to lie

599
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 3: in Penelope's bed, like, don't use any pronounce right. But

600
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 3: it was more like I took pauses on people that

601
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 3: were friends who didn't understand, or who wanted me not

602
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 3: to talk about it so much, or people who thought, well,

603
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 3: maybe you can do this investigation after you get your

604
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 3: marriage together. You know your marriage is falling apart, why

605
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 3: do you want to add any more stress. So those folks,

606
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 3: I was like, we'll have to talk in a couple

607
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 3: of years, because to wait for my marriage to be

608
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 3: perfect it's never right. So you would never tell a

609
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 3: black family, you know, let's wait for your marriage to

610
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 3: be perfect before you start fighting racism because it's fundamental

611
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 3: in our culture, right, So why do I have to

612
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 3: wait for the dynamics of the husband and the wife

613
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 3: to be perfect to start standing up for you know, transphobia? Well,

614
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 3: I think I think it goes back to those roles

615
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 3: that there's like this hierarchy of what's important. I mean,

616
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 3: obviously kids are important, but you know there's a hierarchy

617
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 3: of Okay, first get the family dynamic together, the husband

618
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 3: and the wife specific, and then once that falls in line,

619
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 3: then the kids will be happy because you guys are happy. Right. Yeah,

620
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 3: It's like, what are the black what are what are

621
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 3: the hard hitting black topics? And I understand, like when

622
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 3: I would be in groups and we'd be talking politics,

623
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 3: it would be mass incarceration and police brutality and housing

624
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 3: crisis and the attack of black men and the rape

625
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 3: of black women, and you know, I understand what is

626
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 3: at stake. And I would also put in there that

627
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 3: we have to examine the identity of the individual, that

628
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 3: each person, that it's a real black topic. It is

629
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 3: a real issue for the black community to stop and

630
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 3: pay attention to our identity, and if we don't, we

631
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 3: are asking for trouble.

632
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 4: I think like with when you say identity and you

633
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 4: refer to it as the black community, it's so powerful

634
00:32:55,640 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 4: because even we've been I feel like, because we have

635
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 4: such a because there's such a dark history we have,

636
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 4: we believe, and we've felt like we've had less space

637
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 4: to be more things, and so now we're in this

638
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 4: time and there's this platform where you could be black

639
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 4: and queer and that's even a thing, and black and

640
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 4: gay and black and lesbian and even black and goths.

641
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 4: Because for so long she's like, just survive, just being black,

642
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 4: just go, just don't get killed, just be black, just

643
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 4: be black and be normally.

644
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 3: And I think that we had so much, you know,

645
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 3: there was there were very clear roads that we were taking.

646
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 3: And the first road was education, Like it was through

647
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 3: education and we will gain power, will be knowledge, and

648
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 3: will gain a way up and out. And so that

649
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 3: was like our main goal, right, like educate your kids,

650
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 3: give nothing else. And then there was economic development that

651
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 3: we were really focused on within the black community.

652
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 1: We're still not there, but that was that was our focus.

653
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 3: And it was always like eyes on the prize and

654
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,479
Speaker 3: you know, you sort of stay focused on the top goals.

655
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: But I think as.

656
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 3: We now are seeing it, if we don't contemplate the identity,

657
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 3: we are losing not only children, we are losing entire generations.

658
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 3: And families are separate, families are splitting apart, And so

659
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 3: where does that take us if a person has economic

660
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 3: stability but the family is separated.

661
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 5: I don't know, right is that it still doesn't no

662
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 5: nothing is solved, and so yeah, we do have these

663
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 5: we have an ability now or there's a moment now

664
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 5: to start looking at all the different identities.

665
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 1: And as humans, we have endless identities. So it's just

666
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 1: that we've.

667
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 3: Been so consumed with surviving as a culture or as

668
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 3: a race that we haven't had time. But but I

669
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,919
Speaker 3: was like, Penelope has no more time, Like I don't

670
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 3: have any more time to wait.

671
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,479
Speaker 1: I need to work on this now, not later.

672
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 2: Now. I mean fighting hate and ignorance is all want

673
00:34:58,719 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 2: to fight.

674
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 4: Anyway, what would you say to people who, like, you know,

675
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 4: she had a Penelope had a discussion with you as

676
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 4: early as two or three. What do you say to

677
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 4: people who associate gender identity with sexuality.

678
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 3: Oh, it's not, it's just a well, so a lot

679
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 3: of what we're working with is misinformation and lack of information.

680
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 3: So I always tell folks just do some basic one

681
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 3: on one And there's a book called Transgender one on one, right,

682
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 3: I think by Nick Tish, And it's really we have

683
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 3: to understand sexuality is one thing. Identities in the brain.

684
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 3: It's a brain process. Identities in the brain. Presentation is

685
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 3: how I present the clothing I wear. Who I love

686
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 3: is one thing, and how I am my organs, my sexual.

687
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: Organs are a completely other thing.

688
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 3: So I can wear pants and still identify it as

689
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 3: a woman, right, It's you know, presentation and identity are

690
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 3: different sexuality.

691
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: I can.

692
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 3: Be a woman who sleeps with a trans man, which

693
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 3: if you think about the the bodies, bodies are similar.

694
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 3: But I'm a woman who's sleeping with a man because

695
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 3: he identifies as a man, identifies a woman regardless of

696
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 3: what the bodies look like. Right, right, So it's you know,

697
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 3: it's k It's It's not as complex as it sounds.

698
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 3: We just need to spend some time the same way

699
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 3: we would learn an app on our phone. Just learn

700
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 3: some basic information and so there is no confusion around

701
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:28,720
Speaker 3: between sexuality and identity.

702
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: They are two separate things. How do you identify myself? Yeah,

703
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: m ah, that's a good question.

704
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 3: I see myself as woman, as black, as mother, as

705
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 3: heteronormative and a queer relationship as what is h a

706
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 3: hetero heterosexuals?

707
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 2: Okay, got it.

708
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:53,439
Speaker 3: I've been living a heterosexual life, okay, but with heteronormative

709
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 3: ideas sort of based in like this heteronormative lifestyle that's

710
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 3: for most of my life, I've lived as a hetero

711
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 3: sexual woman and through the lens of heteronormative you.

712
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: Know, I guess values.

713
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 3: But I'm in a queer relationship now, so I don't

714
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 3: really know what that makes me. It's just, you know,

715
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 3: I guess I'm queer as well. In a sense, I

716
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 3: think my identities are changing.

717
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: I think they should.

718
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 3: They do often shift for people, which is new to me,

719
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:25,720
Speaker 3: that we that our identities change. So whereas I would

720
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 3: have never said queer, recently, it's a question mark for

721
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:33,760
Speaker 3: me because of the relationship I'm in, and also because

722
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 3: you know, when I look at my son that I

723
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 3: look at myself and look back at my son and

724
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 3: look at my daughter, I have a hard time distinguishing

725
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 3: or separating between them and me.

726
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: So I kind of lets just see it more as we.

727
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 1: So I've just been recently feeling like we are.

728
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 3: Queer, we are straight, we are trands, we are by,

729
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 3: we are paned, we are all of these like little

730
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 3: sort of the labels, but also the gradations of human

731
00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 3: existence are somewhere in me.

732
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 1: Sounds really hippie dippy, but I'm like a mom. I'm like,

733
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: I cannot separate myself from my children.

734
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 3: But what I what I hear when I think about

735
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 3: this and your journey, is how beautiful it is that

736
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 3: Penelope has really.

737
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 1: Been transformative for me. Yeah, yeah, it's so. It's so.

738
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 3: I mean, our daughters are so young, but like every

739
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 3: day I feel like, Wow, you're my teacher. And in

740
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 3: many ways it sounds like Penelope has been.

741
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 2: Not for you.

742
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 1: He has.

743
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 3: And also because of that, I've now opened my eyes

744
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 3: to my other kids. So I have a scientist who

745
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 3: is thirteen, and he understands life very differently from my

746
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 3: than I do.

747
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 1: So he says, look, Mom, I.

748
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,800
Speaker 3: Will respect my brother, will always use the right pronouns,

749
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 3: but scientifically, transgender doesn't exist, like physiologically, Penelope is a girl.

750
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: And so we have this conversation in my house and

751
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 1: we allow.

752
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 3: For obviously different opinions, different perspectives, different truths, And so

753
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 3: I'm not forcing him to.

754
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: See gender the way I see it.

755
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 3: He sees it the way he sees it through thirteen

756
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 3: year old eyes, with this limited version of science that

757
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 3: he holds right. And he says, scientifically speaking, Penelope is

758
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 3: a girl. And so he's been on that for the

759
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 3: last eight years. And Penelope has been they do, they

760
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 3: have disagreements about it or oh, so we have this

761
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:21,720
Speaker 3: thing called the lab and we lab out ideas, whatever

762
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 3: the big ideas are. We put 'em on the table

763
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 3: and we speak on them for like hours at a time,

764
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 3: to the point where it gets boring and they're like,

765
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 3: and we don't wanna talk about this, We just wanna

766
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 3: go play basketball. But Penelope and his brother are not

767
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 3: any closer in agreeing. Penelope is like, I am the

768
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 3: only proof you need. It exists because I am here.

769
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 3: This is how God has made me. And then his

770
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 3: brother says, well, God has not proven either.

771
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:46,439
Speaker 4: This is wow.

772
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, so yeah, and I think so the goal is

773
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 3: not to agree, it's just not to agree. So we

774
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 3: just the golf in my house is to debate or

775
00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 3: discuss with decorum, and that is a pra a learned.

776
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: Muscle. I think that's amazing.

777
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 4: I think that as people we have to we like,

778
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,919
Speaker 4: we have to label things and make ourselves understand them

779
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 4: to make it real.

780
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 2: Because it's like, oh, well, you know he watches this

781
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 2: person watches.

782
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 1: This kind of porn, Well is he gay?

783
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 3: You know?

784
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: To switch to porn. I think that's a real conversation.

785
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 4: I've had clearly, I've had this conversation and I had

786
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 4: to tell my friends. Everything is not black or white,

787
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 4: everything's not gay or straight. Everything's not female or male.

788
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 4: You know, every pant doesn't mean this or that. So

789
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 4: it's just like the spectrum of who we are and

790
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 4: like how we identify. There's we're so many things. Were

791
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 4: multi faceted, people, multi dimensional, and so it makes people

792
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 4: comfortable to be like, oh, you're a black woman's bisexual

793
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 4: black woman.

794
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 3: And I think it's like if we look at nature,

795
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 3: it's really nothing in nature can be described as one

796
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 3: of two options, right, because we like to.

797
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: Say what are you?

798
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 3: You're either black or white, or you either straight or gay,

799
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 3: one of two you choose. But if you look at

800
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 3: all of nature, to describe a tree, you can't say, well,

801
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 3: is it tall or short? To describe the ocean, is

802
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 3: it deeper shallow? To describe a bird. They're not just

803
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 3: fluffy or sleek. They're all kinds of words and languages

804
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 3: to describe all aspects of nature. Humans are nature, right,

805
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 3: So there's not one of two choices us. There's like

806
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 3: way layers and layers and layers of ways to identify

807
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 3: and therefore to describe me, and I cannot choose from two.

808
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: I just can't. It's not full enough.

809
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 2: It's not enough, not enough words with your with your

810
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 2: journey with.

811
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 4: Penelope, and then later on down the line with your relationship.

812
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 4: The people who were supportive of of you know, Penelope,

813
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 4: did they have you? Did you find a different pushback

814
00:41:58,360 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 4: when you've gotten that relationship?

815
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 2: I want we accept you differently.

816
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,280
Speaker 3: No, I mean for I'm not asking for permission, of course,

817
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 3: right for my friends, I'm more in love than.

818
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 1: Then. I mean I would say that more.

819
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,240
Speaker 3: I would say that I am in love and people

820
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 3: can see that, and that is more than enough for

821
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 3: people to understand that this is something real and we're

822
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 3: not up for debate. And then it's not you know fifty.

823
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 3: So I'm not rushing into anything. I'm not rushing to

824
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 3: have babies, I'm not rushing to move in. We just

825
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 3: enjoy each other's company. So I know, I haven't had

826
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,359
Speaker 3: any pushback for my friends. In fact, it's it's kind

827
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 3: of it's nice to see my boyfriend get along with

828
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 3: my friends. They're not Most of my friends aren't trans

829
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 3: My girlfriends, my close girlfriends an't trams. They get along

830
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 3: with my boyfriend. My kids get along with my boyfriend.

831
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 3: My ex seem to like him just fine, you know,

832
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:55,919
Speaker 3: so I don't know if that's beak.

833
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: Again.

834
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 3: I doubt it's because he's trams or because we're a sis.

835
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:00,720
Speaker 3: I think we're just good.

836
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 1: Folks, right, Yeah, how is no?

837
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 3: And I but I do understand the question of like,

838
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,359
Speaker 3: you know, is it hard for people to It might

839
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 3: be easy for people to accept Penelope, who's a kid

840
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 3: were it's still kind of you know, cute.

841
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: How old is eleven?

842
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 3: So people really like if they can't wrap their head

843
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 3: around Penelope being trans, they're like, nah, she's a cute tomeboy,

844
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 3: which is so far from the truth.

845
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:25,399
Speaker 1: But this in a sick way.

846
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 3: There's a there's a an ease about dealing with children

847
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 3: who might not fit into a box yet, but when

848
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 3: you look at adults, it sometimes it gets more complicated.

849
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 3: People want adults to be one of two choice his right,

850
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 3: and so there I would I have had guessed that

851
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 3: we maybe we would run into some questions.

852
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 1: For my friends, but no, nothing.

853
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 3: So as Penelope, I mean he's about to enter puberty

854
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 3: or not yet, because I don't know eleven twelve, How

855
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,439
Speaker 3: how do you have you guys had that conversation, like, yeah,

856
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,280
Speaker 3: I have. I have that conversation with all my kids.

857
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 3: I tell them, puberty is coming, can't avoid it. Each

858
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 3: of you will get taller and smell, hair, will form

859
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 3: in different places. And so I have a kind of

860
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 3: a joint conversation with all the kids around puberty, and

861
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 3: then I pull each one aside because it's also a

862
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 3: private conversation. Nobody really wants to talk about it, and

863
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 3: I'm fine with talking about it. The kids don't really

864
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 3: get into it, and I would say that with all

865
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 3: of the stages of mothering, I'm very well versed and

866
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:36,839
Speaker 3: very well prepared. So I have thought about it for

867
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 3: my sisters children, for my trans child, for my gender

868
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 3: queer kid. I've thought about the different ways in which

869
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 3: they will move through this world with me. So I

870
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 3: know great doctors, I know great therapists, I know great communities,

871
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 3: great organizations that will help each kid. So it's not

872
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 3: really specific to Penelope. I'm prepared for all my kids

873
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 3: as much as I mean, you know, I'm trying to

874
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 3: do very pair for all of my kids around puberty,

875
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 3: around high school, around drugs, around world travel, around all

876
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 3: the places where they start to take steps into the

877
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 3: world on their own.

878
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: Has Penelope to shit, I mean, he's sorry.

879
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 3: He has not decided yet what he would like to

880
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 3: do as far as whether he would go through any

881
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 3: sort of you know, hormonal.

882
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: Or with his body. Yeah, he's eleven.

883
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 3: He's only eleven, so we just are in the eleven

884
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 3: year old stage, which is he's applying for high schools.

885
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 2: So he's.

886
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 3: I say that because at eleven, like the eleven year

887
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 3: old now versus the eleven year old when I was eleven,

888
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 3: there is so much more aware of their bodies, aware

889
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 3: of sex, aware of almost like and also like aware

890
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 3: of Okay, I like her, I like him, you know,

891
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 3: And because I think about myself at eleven, and.

892
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 1: You know, actually I was kind of it was kind

893
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 1: of slow. No, it's kind of pass. That's gonna pass.

894
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: But I, you know, I don't.

895
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 3: It's I think that we we so as a parent

896
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 3: of a trans kid, I'm like, oh, sometimes I'm ten

897
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 3: years spinning ten years forward in my head because we're

898
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:19,879
Speaker 3: always thinking about what if, what if?

899
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: What if?

900
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 3: What about this year? What about you know, first ever?

901
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 3: You know, it's always I'm so far ahead sometimes that

902
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 3: I'm really trying to be today. So today we are

903
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:35,320
Speaker 3: filling on applications for new schools. Today we are working

904
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 3: on homework, and behind the scenes, of course, I'm doing research,

905
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 3: and I'm looking at different doctors, and I'm looking at

906
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 3: different therapists, and I'm looking at different camps, and I'm

907
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 3: looking at different communities that will support the individual needs

908
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,839
Speaker 3: of my kids. But when Penelope, most of the time,

909
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 3: Penelope and I are working on today because it's important

910
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 3: to have him just as all of our kids and

911
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 3: not have so much fear about the future. And I'm

912
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 3: sort of skirting the issue because it's Penelope's private space

913
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 3: and I but I think that as parents, we have

914
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 3: to prepare ourselves first for the work that our children

915
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 3: need us to do, and then when our kids get there,

916
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 3: we'll be ready for them. So I'm ready for the

917
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:20,959
Speaker 3: turn and the twist that puberty will take with every

918
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 3: one of my kids.

919
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 1: That's beautiful.

920
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 3: I mean, I I think that your perspective and your experience.

921
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 1: Is one that so many can relate to.

922
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 3: When they don't really they're not they're not ready to

923
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:40,240
Speaker 3: open themselves up to it. I hope that whoever's listening,

924
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 3: I think they're experiencing you know something similar that you

925
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 3: know they can find. I don't know how how how

926
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,320
Speaker 3: did your journey go as far as educating yourself.

927
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 1: Was it just googling?

928
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 3: Was it attending like a lot of googling, a lot

929
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 3: of like conversations and conventions and just first I spent

930
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 3: nights on my own just during the research, like going

931
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 3: on the internet, on the World Wide Web and typing

932
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:09,760
Speaker 3: in words, typing in free k key phrases. Malcolm Gladwell

933
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 3: says ten thousand hours to become an expert. So I

934
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 3: was like, I will put ten thousand hours into this

935
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 3: because I was starting from negative, right, I had no information.

936
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 3: So I googled a lot, I researched a lot. I

937
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 3: read some books. Then I followed the paths of different doctors,

938
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 3: and then I found groups of families that would gather

939
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,479
Speaker 3: once a month and sit and talk as parents, right,

940
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 3: and then groups for the children that would sit in

941
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 3: talk and hang out. So that sort of formed community

942
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 3: for me cause I wasn't a part of the LGBT community.

943
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 3: So I'm now I work with the Acroman Institute Gender

944
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 3: and Family Project, which is based in New York. I'm

945
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 3: the board chair for the Human Rights Campaign Foundation, which

946
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 3: is our largest LGBT organization in America. I work with

947
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 3: not Sinai as they start to develop their transgender department.

948
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 3: I've l I've I work with a camp for trans

949
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 3: families of trans kids.

950
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 1: Sleepway Camp.

951
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 3: So I've literally just spent my time you immersed yourself

952
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 3: expanding my my community exactly. So like you know, for

953
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 3: my parents did they they sent me to spell them

954
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:17,400
Speaker 3: in college, right, so I could understand what being a

955
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 3: black woman was about from from within the community, right,

956
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 3: not from media. And so if I want to understand,

957
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 3: and if I want my child to be confident, then

958
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 3: I have to be around gym do not conforming folks,

959
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 3: and I've got to be around trans people. And I've

960
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 3: and I didn't know them, so I had to go

961
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:36,799
Speaker 3: and find them, right and they weren't lost, of course,

962
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 3: but I had to expand my community so that Penelope

963
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 3: wasn't the only trans person I knew, which was right

964
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 3: literally how I was for for you know, first three

965
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 3: years of his life.

966
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:53,720
Speaker 4: I I think that like obviously the exploring, like diving

967
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 4: into the community and finding community is so important. But

968
00:49:56,400 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 4: even like when you're saying about listening to Penelope. Imagine

969
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 4: just listening to your kids in.

970
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 1: The most simplest form.

971
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:06,799
Speaker 4: I was around my friend and his son, and his

972
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 4: son was playing with my daughter's doll and he snatched

973
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 4: it from him and scolded him and he started to cry,

974
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 4: and I literally got so irritated. I don't know if

975
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 4: I've ever spoken to that friend again. It bothered me bad.

976
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:23,359
Speaker 4: And I just realized, like damn, like I don't know,

977
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 4: he's a black guy, And I'm like, is.

978
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 1: This just like a black people thing?

979
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 4: Like boys, better to take off those heels or you

980
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 4: would have not put on that dress, so you don't

981
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 4: better play with no his babies, you don't play with

982
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:36,839
Speaker 4: no makeup. And I'm just like, it's a child, It's

983
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 4: a blank palette. It has nothing there, you know, Like

984
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 4: how dare you make an outline and makes them draw

985
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 4: in the lines. And I was just just listening to

986
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 4: this conversation, like not even just in this in a

987
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 4: trans way, but like that person could that little boy

988
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 4: could be a designer, he could be a a midwife,

989
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 4: he could be I mean, what.

990
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,760
Speaker 3: If David Bowie someone told me put it on makeup,

991
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 3: stop listening to that music. That prince, you know, what

992
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:06,839
Speaker 3: I mean, Like, so I think that we've we've said

993
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 3: there are a few people that we allow for them

994
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 3: to be expressive, right, But why aren't we a few

995
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 3: like my kid, multiple children in my home are extremely

996
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 3: expressive in ways that aren't typical.

997
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 1: And I like that and I allow for that.

998
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 3: But you know, I'm not into this idea that we

999
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 3: have to be that there are only a few David

1000
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 3: Bowies and princes a special case. Yeah, I mean, they

1001
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 3: are phenomenal folks, but like our kids are phenomenal, and

1002
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 3: I think they would be more apt to explore if

1003
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 3: we encourage that.

1004
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:44,319
Speaker 1: Has Penelope experienced any bullying? I mean, I know, you.

1005
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 3: Go, I know you've you've sought out schools that are supportive,

1006
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 3: and you know, you try to provide spaces where he

1007
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 3: can feel supported.

1008
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 1: But inevitably, we live in the wild.

1009
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 3: World, and I just wonder how, if and how he

1010
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 3: or you have navigated him through. We've had some So

1011
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,879
Speaker 3: his school is very supportive, the principal, and it really

1012
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 3: just takes one person to set a tone. The principle

1013
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 3: set the tone early on that we we that the

1014
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 3: school accepts Penelope, that the school accepts all children, and

1015
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,800
Speaker 3: the school supports Penelope, and the school supports all children,

1016
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:23,879
Speaker 3: and if parents weren't comfortable with that, they should leave

1017
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 3: because that was the culture of theirs of the school.

1018
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: M So, in.

1019
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 3: General, our school has been phenomenal. Of course, there's some

1020
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,839
Speaker 3: kids that had questions, and I thought there were more

1021
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 3: questions than bullying, but that was just the way I

1022
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:40,880
Speaker 3: interpreted it. So the kids said to Penelope, oh, I

1023
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,279
Speaker 3: saw you on Facebook. You're really a girl. I saw

1024
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 3: you wearing a dress. We can't be your friend anymore.

1025
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 3: Somebody might have thought that was a you know, s

1026
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 3: a l a s a soft bullying, but I said, Panel, look,

1027
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 3: this is your friend. I think you should go back

1028
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 3: to school tomorrow and address your friend. So Panel went

1029
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:57,839
Speaker 3: back to school and said, you know, I don't really

1030
00:52:57,880 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 3: know about Facebook. My mom doesn't really let me on

1031
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 3: social media. But I'm a boy. My mom used to

1032
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:04,319
Speaker 3: dress me in dresses. She thought I was a girl.

1033
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:08,799
Speaker 3: I like math, you know me, I'm really good, you

1034
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 3: know with baby blading. When I get back to being friends,

1035
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 3: and the kid was like, yeah, okay.

1036
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:17,359
Speaker 1: It sounds good. But it wasn't complicated talk.

1037
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 3: It wasn't yeah, it wasn't aggressive bullying that we've never

1038
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 3: experienced that in school. But I do think that a

1039
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 3: lot of what we are experiencing is a few people

1040
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 3: protecting our space. So I think if I didn't have

1041
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 3: this principle that really safeguarded our space.

1042
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 1: I might have felt it more. I think if I

1043
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 1: didn't have.

1044
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 3: Some of the best aunties, you know, sort of scaffolding

1045
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 3: around my family, I might have felt it more. I

1046
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:49,319
Speaker 3: don't feel it. It might exist, but I just don't

1047
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 3: feel it. I have people sort of entering spaces either

1048
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 3: before me or before Penelope and clearing the space. Here

1049
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:58,399
Speaker 3: comes my friend, she's got a trans kid, or here

1050
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 3: comes Penelope, he's a trans.

1051
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 1: And I did that for a long time.

1052
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 3: I sort of walked two steps before Penelope, introduced ourselves

1053
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 3: and checked to see if everyone's cool with that. Mm

1054
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 3: And now my friends do it for me. So we

1055
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 3: you know, do I have Do we have bullies around us?

1056
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:19,399
Speaker 3: I'm sure, but I don't really see them. I don't

1057
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 3: feel them as much.

1058
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:21,959
Speaker 1: Do you think living in New York City too? Yeah?

1059
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 1: I mean, bit's die like people are like it's just

1060
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:25,320
Speaker 1: our neighborhood.

1061
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:26,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I live in I live in a

1062
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:31,720
Speaker 3: real neighborhood where our main concern is like have you slept,

1063
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 3: have you swept your brownstone stairs? Have you cleaned up

1064
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 3: the leaves? You know, are you taking out your garbage?

1065
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 3: Are you friendly? They're not concerned. Would have Penelope identifies right, Yeah, it's.

1066
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:46,959
Speaker 4: Beautiful and it's really beautiful. I really appreciate you coming

1067
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:47,880
Speaker 4: and telling your story.

1068
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 1: Thank you.

1069
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 4: I want to ask one one more thing, And I

1070
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:54,279
Speaker 4: know you said like, in the first two years of

1071
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 4: Penelope's life, before she was could talk, was there anything

1072
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:01,920
Speaker 4: you sensed as a mom, like your intuition that was like.

1073
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:03,839
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, for sure.

1074
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 3: So he when he was f within the first first year,

1075
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 3: he was disruptive, So you know, he he came out

1076
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 3: very healthy and bubbly and inquisitive, but by the first

1077
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 3: year he was crying a lot. Any touch to the

1078
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 3: body was strange to him. Changing a diaper was met with,

1079
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:28,800
Speaker 3: you know, screams. In fact, it was so awkward that

1080
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 3: I would have to call Dad for backup, Like you'd

1081
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:33,280
Speaker 3: have to kind of hold Penelope down while I changed

1082
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:33,760
Speaker 3: the diaper.

1083
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 1: It's very uncomfortable.

1084
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 3: Dressing was difficult, Brushing hair was difficult, Brushing teeth was difficult.

1085
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 1: Putting on a diaper was difficult.

1086
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 3: Come to find out, girl toothbrushes have princesses mm and

1087
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:48,680
Speaker 3: boy toothbrushes have trucks, right right, diapers are the same.

1088
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 3: Everything was gendered and E and Penelope would just be

1089
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 3: swatting dresses out of my hand and.

1090
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 1: Like stopping on the Mary Janes.

1091
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 3: It like breaking the pink hangars that I had bought

1092
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 3: for Penelope. It got to the point where I was

1093
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:01,959
Speaker 3: anything that was pink. I just took a black marker

1094
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 3: and I was like blacking out pink, pink, pink stitching, mm,

1095
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:08,759
Speaker 3: pink dejer. I was just like get rid of all

1096
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,840
Speaker 3: the pink and nouns because pink became this enemy, and

1097
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:15,280
Speaker 3: Penelope had become a real angry kid and a bully

1098
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:19,480
Speaker 3: pushing kids around. So those were the signs that I thought.

1099
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:22,520
Speaker 3: I saw those signs, but I thought, Okay, Penelope needs

1100
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:29,279
Speaker 3: longer naps, Penelope's tired, Penelope needs uh maybe Penelope as

1101
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:32,280
Speaker 3: a dairy allergy, we took out dairy.

1102
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:34,840
Speaker 1: We were literally like, okay, what as a parent should

1103
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:35,399
Speaker 1: we do? Right?

1104
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:39,760
Speaker 3: Hug more, sleep, more, change the diet, spend more time,

1105
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 3: slow down the pace, you know, let Penelope feel how

1106
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:46,719
Speaker 3: loved Penelope is. And those are the th that was

1107
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 3: the the s the those are the things that I

1108
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 3: was used to doing as a mom, and so I

1109
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 3: put I went in overdrive. It didn't change anything, and

1110
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:55,719
Speaker 3: actually a Penelope got worse. Some of the things that

1111
00:56:55,800 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 3: help were cutting hair into a mohawk, wearing sneakers, blue jeans.

1112
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:05,919
Speaker 3: They helped a little bit, but literally, by age three,

1113
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 3: Penelope had become just a real pissed off kid, reoccurring nightmares,

1114
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 3: bed wedding, nail biting till bloody.

1115
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 1: So yes, I saw what was going on.

1116
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 3: I saw signs, but I was unaware of what they

1117
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 3: meant until and he couldn't.

1118
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:23,920
Speaker 1: Express it the first the beginning, the.

1119
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 3: Language that was the body physically expressing it was the

1120
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 3: only way Penelope could talk it right. And then by

1121
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 3: three I finally sat down Penelope and I said, Okay,

1122
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 3: what's wrong?

1123
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 1: Why are you so angry?

1124
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 3: And that was the turning point because Penelope said, but

1125
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 3: because everyone thinks I'm a.

1126
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 1: Girl and I'm not.

1127
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 3: So I thought, okay, we have a lesbian or a

1128
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 3: feminist or something. You know, Penelope is recognizing that this

1129
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 3: world oftentimes favors boys, and maybe Penelope wants to be

1130
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:56,479
Speaker 3: seen as tough. So Penelope is like saying, I'm a boy.

1131
00:57:56,920 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 3: So I said, okay, however you feel is fine, baby.

1132
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 3: If you feel like your brother's, go ahead and ad

1133
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:04,600
Speaker 3: like a boy. And then Penelope said the words that

1134
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 3: really just changed it for me. No, Mom, I don't

1135
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 3: feel like a boy. I am a boy.

1136
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 1: So clear, so clear, so clear. You said something in

1137
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 1: your ted talk that stood out to me.

1138
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 3: It said, it's my job as a parent to create

1139
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 3: the exact environment where happiness can grow. And that's really

1140
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 3: spoke to me because well, first of all, I I, I, I.

1141
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:34,120
Speaker 3: Obviously it's always our goal to create exact environment.

1142
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:34,920
Speaker 1: Is always possible.

1143
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 3: No, but I, but I understood what your I understood

1144
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 3: what you said, and I thought that's so important and

1145
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 3: it's so true. And it really starts with listening. Yeah,

1146
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 3: if you have to listen, you have to listen as parents.

1147
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:52,439
Speaker 3: Our children are constantly trying to tell us things even

1148
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:55,800
Speaker 3: when they can't vocalize them, and you know, and and

1149
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 3: a lot of that too starts with you and being

1150
00:58:58,040 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 3: you as a parent, being able to listen to your

1151
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 3: own intuition and not question it.

1152
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 1: And I think I've talked a lot about me.

1153
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 3: This year and trusting my intuition and trusting what I'm feeling,

1154
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 3: and also trusting what my child is feeling as well.

1155
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:16,919
Speaker 3: And I think as women like and as mothers really

1156
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:18,000
Speaker 3: as mothers.

1157
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 1: If you can do that, I mean, it's a key

1158
00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 1: element unlocked.

1159
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 3: You just unlock the beauty of parenthood, motherhood, humanhood.

1160
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:33,760
Speaker 2: We're portals, you know. We're here to deliver the souls.

1161
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 1: We're not here to make them. You know, how they

1162
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 1: come and they're who they are.

1163
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 3: And if we could make him it might fee a

1164
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 3: lot easier, but we cannot.

1165
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 4: I feel like kids, kids choose their parents, and you know,

1166
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:48,919
Speaker 4: Padelope chose you because he knew, Yeah, he knew.

1167
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 1: We fight.

1168
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:52,240
Speaker 3: I think the idea of like, you know, creating the

1169
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:57,040
Speaker 3: exact environment for happiness, it seems very lofty and maybe impossible.

1170
00:59:57,040 --> 00:59:59,439
Speaker 3: But what I was trying to say was that there's

1171
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 3: all this breede in the way of our children, right,

1172
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 3: and so they are on these paths and then there's

1173
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:08,120
Speaker 3: like this clutter. Sometimes it's clothing, right, that's cluttering the space.

1174
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:14,080
Speaker 3: Sometimes it's family tradition that's cluttering the space. Sometimes it's sexism,

1175
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:16,200
Speaker 3: or there's just stuff in the way of our children,

1176
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,640
Speaker 3: and if we it is our job to clear that

1177
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 3: out of the way so that they can just kind

1178
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:24,400
Speaker 3: of experience life and walk down all the paths.

1179
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:24,640
Speaker 1: You know.

1180
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:26,800
Speaker 3: Sometimes we're like, nope, not that path, this path, right, Like,

1181
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:30,560
Speaker 3: let them walk down all the paths experience life. But

1182
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:32,720
Speaker 3: what you said was that we have to understand who

1183
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 3: they are first. The first thing is they have to

1184
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:36,320
Speaker 3: tell us who they are. We have to encourage our

1185
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:38,800
Speaker 3: children to tell us who they are. Then we have

1186
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 3: to understand. Then we have to sit with that, right

1187
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 3: because it's not always what we want, but it takes

1188
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 3: a second to sit with that, sit with the idea

1189
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:48,120
Speaker 3: of who they actually are, and then allow them to

1190
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 3: travel these roads. In our job, I just saw myself

1191
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:53,200
Speaker 3: as a sweeper. I would just be sweeping the roads

1192
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:55,880
Speaker 3: clear for Penelope and now for all my children, just

1193
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:58,080
Speaker 3: sweep the roads so they could just traverse.

1194
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 1: Right. It's an exhaust job.

1195
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:03,920
Speaker 3: But once you start, then you bring in your aunties

1196
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:05,880
Speaker 3: and your best friends and they start helping you and

1197
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 3: you work together and it's like, yeah, it's your tribe exactly.

1198
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:13,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, thank you for what you do.

1199
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:13,920
Speaker 1: Thank you.

1200
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:16,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for this conversation. It was really more than

1201
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 3: I expected.

1202
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 1: I'm yeah for me.

1203
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:23,360
Speaker 4: Too, and I'm I don't know if people realize, like

1204
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 4: the black trans community is like the number one highest one,

1205
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 4: like the number one highest murder or what.

1206
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:34,880
Speaker 3: We uh, there's an attack on black trans women. More

1207
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:38,360
Speaker 3: than twenty have been murdered, and we're and they're being

1208
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:41,080
Speaker 3: murdered not by trans folks, They're being murdered by sis

1209
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:46,480
Speaker 3: gender people. So folks who don't understand, oftentimes folks who

1210
01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:50,040
Speaker 3: know them m men, sis men are m are murdering

1211
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:55,200
Speaker 3: trans black trans women. And so we have demonized and

1212
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 3: criminalized trans folks the same way America demonized and criminalized

1213
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:02,840
Speaker 3: black folk. And we have an attack on black trans

1214
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:06,760
Speaker 3: folks now because we have seen them as something strange

1215
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:10,080
Speaker 3: and something dangerous, when in fact, Penelope is not dangerous,

1216
01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:15,680
Speaker 3: and it's it's it's something that makes Penelope terrified. It

1217
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:20,560
Speaker 3: makes me terrified to know that. F I mean in Florida.

1218
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 3: I was just in Jacksonville, Florida. I think they had

1219
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:24,120
Speaker 3: five of those murders.

1220
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:25,760
Speaker 2: You know.

1221
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:27,880
Speaker 1: Wow, That's why it's.

1222
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:31,640
Speaker 4: So important that we gain understanding and acceptance and love

1223
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 4: for each other.

1224
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:36,080
Speaker 3: And when we accept early, so many of the complications

1225
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:38,880
Speaker 3: just get eliminated. I mean, it's all it's all about

1226
01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:42,919
Speaker 3: accepting folks' identities as early as possible so.

1227
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 1: That we can just let it be and be and be.

1228
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 3: And having these conversations with our kids would whether they

1229
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:52,520
Speaker 3: identify as cis, oh, your friends having the conversation because

1230
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:56,439
Speaker 3: cause they're inevitably they're going to empower someone and they're

1231
01:02:56,480 --> 01:02:58,320
Speaker 3: gonna be like, what's going on?

1232
01:02:58,600 --> 01:02:59,960
Speaker 1: Why didn't we have this conversation?

1233
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:03,120
Speaker 3: And you know, and as a parent, I kind of

1234
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 3: want to be in somewhat control of that narrative so

1235
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 3: someone else isn't and then gives my child misinformation animation,

1236
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 3: and then she's out in the world, you know, hating

1237
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:17,440
Speaker 3: or judging something that because she doesn't really understand. And

1238
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:19,680
Speaker 3: I think it's not like the ideas not to insist

1239
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:24,520
Speaker 3: that our children agree or disagree, like Panel and his

1240
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:28,479
Speaker 3: brother don't agree. I don't think that brother is going

1241
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:32,000
Speaker 3: to r in the I when their adults vote.

1242
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:33,400
Speaker 1: Against Panel, right right, I don't.

1243
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 3: I think in the end they will have lived together,

1244
01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:38,400
Speaker 3: they will experience life together. They might not see idy

1245
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:41,560
Speaker 3: on gender, but they will have learned to live.

1246
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:45,840
Speaker 1: Collectively with different opinions, different ideas. So I think that's

1247
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:46,160
Speaker 1: the goal.

1248
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:47,520
Speaker 3: Like, if we can just talk about it with our

1249
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:51,120
Speaker 3: children and put it on the table, we will equip

1250
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:53,920
Speaker 3: them with this mental flexibility that is essential.

1251
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:55,360
Speaker 1: It's essential in life.

1252
01:03:55,560 --> 01:03:59,920
Speaker 3: How flexible can we be around big ideas and honestly

1253
01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:04,200
Speaker 3: teaching kindness? Yeah? Love, there's there's not enough of it.

1254
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:06,000
Speaker 3: I wish I could teach. I mean, my boys are

1255
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:09,080
Speaker 3: so I wish they were more kind to each other.

1256
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:13,760
Speaker 3: I just they're they're constantly fighting on the bast foot court.

1257
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:18,400
Speaker 1: But yes, well, can you tell our listeners where they

1258
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:20,520
Speaker 1: can find you? Sure? So, I have a website.

1259
01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:24,720
Speaker 3: It's Jody Patterson dot com, Jdie Patterson to tas dot com.

1260
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:28,040
Speaker 3: I'm on Instagram Jodie Patterson. My book is called The

1261
01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:32,000
Speaker 3: Bold World. I have a children's book coming out called Bornetti,

1262
01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:34,080
Speaker 3: which is from Penelope's perspective.

1263
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:36,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so do you help you write that?

1264
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:39,880
Speaker 3: Yeah? I've got I mean it's yes, absolutely, each kid

1265
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:42,760
Speaker 3: had a say so in the dialogue and in the

1266
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:43,800
Speaker 3: direction of the book.

1267
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:46,040
Speaker 1: Okay, and his products. Yeah, it's so cool.

1268
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:49,080
Speaker 3: All right, you guys, Well you can find us at

1269
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:51,760
Speaker 3: Good Mom's Underscore by Choices on Instagram. Make sure we

1270
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:55,640
Speaker 3: join our newsletter at good momsby Choices dot com and

1271
01:04:56,120 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 3: we'll see you guys next week.

1272
01:04:57,320 --> 01:05:04,480
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, bustopos by busport difficult.

1273
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:13,120
Speaker 1: For the first foot of the Powerful. Thanks was Chan.