1 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mob Never Told You from housetop works 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and I feel like we need some 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: hollow notes playing in the background for this episode. Man eater. Yeah, 5 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: not quite man hater, but the same sentiment. You could 6 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: also sing man eater as man hater. Oh, here she comes, 7 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: She's a man hater. Yeah, see it works. Yeah perfect. Also, 8 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: I know what our next career move is. Hollow notes 9 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 1: cover band. Yeah, feminist haller notates cover band maybe like 10 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: Holland Ovaries, Holland Yogurt, Holland Yogurt. All right, done, wait 11 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: for our tour information. It'll be coming out soon. So 12 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 1: speaking of man haters. Though, a little fun fact that 13 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:05,320 Speaker 1: I discovered while researching for this episode, man hater is 14 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: an entry in the dictionary, the Merriam Webster Dictionary, but 15 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:13,199 Speaker 1: it's not the gender specific noun that we're talking about 16 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: today in the podcast, which is man hater, as in 17 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: what some people assume feminists are. According to the dictionary, 18 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: a man hater is a person who just hates mankind. 19 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: So just a miss and throat. Yeah, like a more 20 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 1: literal man Hugh Man hater um. But when we get 21 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: into more specifics, uh, the word that we're really talking 22 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: about is miss injury. And there are a lot of 23 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: people who have never heard the word miss injury before, 24 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: even though once once you find out what it is 25 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: to be like, I'm going to get a black cat 26 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: and name it miss injury, or I'll name my first 27 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: daughter miss indury. So do show with our FAI listeners 28 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: what miss indry is. I mean based the hatred of men, 29 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: it's it's the counterpoint to misogyny, which is hatred of women. 30 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:12,679 Speaker 1: And it turns out that etymologically, misogyny is way older 31 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 1: than miss indry. Yeah, yes, exactly. It goes hold of 32 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 1: the way back to the seventeenth century. The Oxford English 33 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: Dictionary actually says that the origin of misogyny goes back 34 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: to sixteen eighteen and that it was introduced by the 35 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: play Sweatnam The Woman hater Um. Apparently Sweatnam was like 36 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: a real life dude named Joseph Sweatnam who published this 37 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: super lady hating misogynistic pamphlet that ended up kicking up 38 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: a bunch of controversy and dissenting pamphlets. It's basically like 39 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: a Twitter twitter storm, pre um electricity. I was gonna 40 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: say pre internet, but it's like, you know, pre industrial Revolution, 41 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: and the main character was named misogynose, and of course 42 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: from misogyn knows we get misogyny, which got into dictionaries 43 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: by sixteen fifty six, which seems like a pretty swift 44 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: adoption since this is pretty like everything. Yeah, the hatred 45 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: of women was apparently pretty trendy enough to name it 46 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: in then dictionary ify it um. But miss indry doesn't 47 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: roll around as a thing that has a word until 48 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, actually in the late nineteenth century at that. Uh. 49 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: The Oxford English Dictionary says that the first use of 50 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: miss indry was in an eighteen eighty two magazine article 51 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: and the quote was no man whom she had cared 52 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: for had ever proposed to marry her. She couldn't account 53 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: for it, and it was a growing source of bitterness 54 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: of misogyny as well as miss injury. So she was 55 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: just more of a misanthrope. Yeah, she hated everybody and 56 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: was angry at everyone. And I mean there is some 57 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: pretty important context of the time, right, like we don't 58 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: get it the word miss indry meaning hating men, not 59 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: hating mankind, but hating men until the suffrage movement is 60 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: in swing. I mean, this is when you see the 61 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: word feminist switching from meaning feminine quality, so you know, 62 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: lady like to someone who's a proponent of women's rights, 63 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: and man hating just kind of went along with that. 64 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: I guess, well sure immediately, Well sure, because think about 65 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: all of the anti suffrage propaganda at the time, portraying 66 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: women as being of course ugly, but also wanting nothing 67 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 1: to do with men, while also emulating men like we're 68 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: going to be become men who wanted nothing to do 69 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: with men. We just wanted men to take care of 70 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: our babies while we went out to vote. We voted 71 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: every day. We're just gonna go out and vote every day, 72 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: every single day, whatever we can, whatever we can possibly 73 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: vote about. And uh, you know, the reason at Kristen 74 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: asked me to define miss injury is because still today 75 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: a lot of people aren't super familiar with the word, 76 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: and certainly it was not common in the decades after, 77 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 1: even after it was introduced in that magazine article, it 78 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 1: was not common. Yeah, So um in Ellen shown Brockman 79 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: wrote a piece in The New York Times kind of 80 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: digging into the origin of miss injury, and she cited 81 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: the first appearance in text, not in two but all 82 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: the way in ninety six in a British journal of 83 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: literary criticism called Scrutiny. And she she goes on to 84 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: note she and also Meryl Pearlman, who wrote about the 85 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 1: same thing over at the Columbia Journalism Review, that miss 86 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: injury rarely appears in print before you start saying, it 87 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: pop up online a lot in the well the tens, 88 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: which is also the same time you see the rise 89 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: of Portmanteau's like man splaining, there's like an Internet culture 90 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: war going on. Yeah, yeah, I mean because you also 91 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: to have um more community building among men's rights activists 92 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: who um are are all all about uprooting society's miss 93 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: injury and blame feminism for what they perceived to be 94 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: miss injury taking over our our world. But we did 95 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: have a blip during Women's lib when you might might 96 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 1: might might hear miss injury, but usually we were just 97 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: called man haters, and by we I mean feminists. You know, 98 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: Oh those women they're just they're just man haters. They 99 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 1: don't want to shave their under arms, they're all lesbians 100 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: and they just hate men. Well, so Brockman says this 101 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: thing that I don't entirely understand. She says that she 102 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 1: surprised that missinjury doesn't even make it into all the dictionaries, 103 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: considering how misindrous humor is now politically correct. What is 104 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: she just talking about the uptick in talking about it. No, 105 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: so Brockman is writing back in and she meant, we 106 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: are totally fine portraying men as adults. So think about 107 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: Tim the Jewelman Taylor on Home Improvement, who was like 108 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: the arch villain of my childhood because he bothered my 109 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: parents so much because he made men look like such idiots. 110 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: So um. And you also see that reflected in commercials 111 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: that are thankfully becoming much less common of the bumbling dad. Um. 112 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: And so that's what she means in talking about misindrous 113 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: humor being politically correct. Um. But I have a pet 114 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: theory that it's also partly due to the fact that 115 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: women are the linguistic trend setters. This is the thing 116 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: we've talked about pretty extensively in the podcast. And this 117 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: goes all the way back centuries mean, back to the 118 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: day of misogynos on stage where women have usually forged 119 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: the slang and our ways of talking um that have 120 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: pushed things forward. And if that's the case, then it's 121 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: likelier that women would be talking about misogyny a lot 122 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: more than they would be talking about missindry. But that 123 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: again is just a theory. So the idea of man 124 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: hating and being a man hater, um, you know, it's 125 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: it's not a new concept to accuse a woman who 126 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: was fighting for women's rights or fighting to have a 127 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: voice at all. It's not. It's not a new concept 128 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 1: for her to be accused of hating men when all 129 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: she's trying to do is get up on the platform herself. 130 00:08:55,040 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: But an interesting little historical trip we took and preparing 131 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: for this episode was learning about the woman who sort 132 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: of became in the nineteen sixties and seventies a sort 133 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: of poster child for man hating. Oh yeah, and this 134 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: is something too that comes up in a lot of 135 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:22,959 Speaker 1: YouTube comments style criticism from men's rights activist types. And 136 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: I say this anecdotally from what I have read on 137 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: the more than five videos on this stuff Mom Never 138 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 1: told you YouTube channel of um really uh, generalizing the 139 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: acts of one or two women, and Valerie Salonis was 140 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: really the first who puts some fuel in that fire 141 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: to say, see, feminists, feminists do hate men. Feminis really 142 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: really really hate men. And here is an example. It's like, 143 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: as long as they have one piece of evidence, then 144 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: that must mean then we're we're we're all s stable 145 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: too to catching this feminist plague. So Valerie Salanis is 146 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: one of the most fascinating people that I have read 147 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: about lately. She was a queer writer and the author 148 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 1: of something that we actually talked about in our podcast 149 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: a while back on radical feminism. It's this thing called 150 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:27,079 Speaker 1: the Scum Manifesto. She wrote it in nineteen sixty seven originally, 151 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:31,839 Speaker 1: but she would continually revise it. And Scum is an 152 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 1: acronym for Society for Cutting up Men, of which she 153 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 1: writes that she was its soul member. She wasn't really looking, 154 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: you know for like gal pals to join Scum. Salonis 155 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: was scum. Yeah, And she even advertised the Scum Manifesto 156 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: in The Village Voice as costing a dollar for men 157 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 1: and cents for women. Love it um, But don't think 158 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: she was trying to be a feminist hero and address 159 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: like the wage gap or anything. She even described feminists 160 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: as schmucks, dupes and no nothings. She was just like 161 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 1: she was the solo member of her group. Like that's 162 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: how she kind of saw life. She Valerie Salanis was 163 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: out for her own means and ends and really was 164 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: not interested in lifting up women with her as a group, 165 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,719 Speaker 1: nor was she interested in lifting up menu which if 166 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: you read a little bit of the Scum Manifesto, you'll 167 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: quickly catch on to to her drift in it. She writes, 168 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: because no aspect of society is relevant to women, civic minded, responsible, 169 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: thrill seeking females should overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, 170 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: and eliminate the male sex, which is everything that men 171 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: who are afraid of women and feminists are afraid that 172 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: we are aiming to do. Yeah, we want to Lorena 173 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 1: bob at you. Yeah, and then send you to an island. 174 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: Although that sounds kind of nice, honestly, Yeah, I need 175 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:07,319 Speaker 1: a vacation. But getting back to Salanas. Before she writes 176 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: the Skun Manifesto, she had graduated from the University of 177 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: Maryland with a degree in psychology. She grew up, you know, 178 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: in a in a fine middle class home. But when 179 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: she went for her masters, she ended up dropping out 180 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:26,439 Speaker 1: because of sexism. She was just over it and she 181 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: ended up in After kind of bouncing around a bit, 182 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: she lands in New York and she is intermittently homeless. 183 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,839 Speaker 1: She's not very good at like making consistent money. Um. 184 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: She is known as a hustler. And there was this 185 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: trick that she would do to men on the sidewalk. Yes, 186 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: so she would get their attention and say, hey, hey, buddy, 187 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: for a dollar, I'll tell you a dirty word. And 188 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:51,959 Speaker 1: they'd be like, oh yeah, baby, and they'd give a 189 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: dollar and she'd say men. And she loved it. She 190 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,719 Speaker 1: loved that trick. Joke never got old to Salanas. Yeah, exactly. 191 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: And we have to give a hat tip to brand 192 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 1: Faz and her two thousand four book Valerie Salanas, The 193 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: Defiant Life of the Woman who wrote Scum and Shot 194 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: Andy Warhol, at which point listeners unfamiliar with her bio 195 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:18,319 Speaker 1: or like, what Andy Warhol? Yeah, And it is worth noting, 196 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: and we will explain this in just a second, Um, 197 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: but it is worth noting that briand Faz did not 198 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: want to include any reference to Andy Warhol, and the 199 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: title of this biography because Valerie Salana says, complex and 200 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: turbulent existence was much deeper, and her her existence just 201 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: extended beyond the borders of what history has placed her in, 202 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: which is the woman who shot Andy Warhol because she 203 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: was angry, well, and how ironic for her legacy to 204 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: be um attached to a man, you know, to be 205 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:59,839 Speaker 1: interpreted through a guy, because this woman wrote Scum Manifesto exactly, 206 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: and so you know, while she's in New York playing 207 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 1: tricks on men in the street, Salonis ends up sort 208 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,839 Speaker 1: of being befriended by Andy Warhol and the Factory crew. 209 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: She appeared in his film I a Man, and she 210 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: had begged Warhol to produce her scatological avant garde play 211 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: called Up Your Ass Um, but it was it was 212 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: too far out for him. And as fas rights, Up 213 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: Your Ass is definitely ahead of its time. Uh Still, 214 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: she argues Um and Salonas basically, because she would later 215 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: be diagnosed with schizophrenia, basically was under the impression or 216 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: delusion that Andy Warhol had taken control of all of 217 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: her all the rights to her writing um, including the 218 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: Scum Manifesto and also this play, and she was just 219 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: furious that he would not support the play or publish 220 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: helped publish the manifesto. Yeah, well, she she specifically wanted 221 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: him to produce Up Your Ass, and she gave him 222 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: a screenplay which he ended up misplacing, and that set 223 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: her off because she it fed into this idea that 224 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: he was just hiding it from her, that he was 225 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: selling it and going to make money off of it. 226 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: Um that she, you know, was losing all of her 227 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: rights to everything, which which wasn't the case. Warhol insisted, 228 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: like Valerie, I just cannot produce this thing. It is 229 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: really intense. Um. So on June three, Andy Warhol and 230 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: his pals are kind of hanging out and shooting the 231 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: breeze and Salanis walks in and shoots Andy Warhol three times, 232 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: and she also shoots a couple of the other people 233 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: who were there and basically said, like at one point 234 00:15:58,040 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: one of the one of the dudes like, please don't 235 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: shoot me. She had already shot war Hall, who looked 236 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: like he could have been dead, um, And he says, 237 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: please don't shoot me, and she says, I have to 238 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: do this bang and then she SCRAMs. But of course, 239 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: in that darkly ironic twist that act forever defines her 240 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: through a man and and she realized it, I mean 241 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: in her lifetime. She realized, like, I can't believe that 242 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: now I am linked forever. You know, this is a 243 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: thing that would go on to define her life and 244 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: career still now because we're still talking about it. And 245 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: we went back and read the initial report of the 246 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: shooting in the Village Voice, and the headline was the 247 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: shot that shattered the velvet underground and war Hal. You know, 248 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: it is like rush to the hospital. There is just 249 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: a media frenzy as you would imagine, and he is 250 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: in critical condition. I mean she she got him good. Um. Meanwhile, 251 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: so Honest goes to the police department a few hours 252 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 1: later and turns herself in, and of course there was 253 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: a throng of press there too, and Salanis tells them, 254 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: if you want to know why I did this, you 255 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: need to read the scum manifesto. Excellent guerilla marketing. I 256 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: know she was such a self promoter to the extreme um. 257 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 1: But of course the media, you know, took scum manifesto 258 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: and we're like, oh what here is a man hating 259 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: feminist and media reports on her described her as a 260 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: man hater and mannish. Yeah, so outside the norm. And 261 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 1: another thing that really riled her up, of course, is 262 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 1: that not only did Andy Warholn not die, but when 263 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,880 Speaker 1: he recovered, he was very understanding forgiving and sympathetic towards her, 264 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: which just enraged her because she thought that it was 265 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: another way of controlling her and trolling the narrative. Yeah. Yeah, 266 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 1: I mean, he was deeply, deeply traumatized by the shooting, 267 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: not surprisingly, but he urged the criminal justice system to 268 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: really take it easy on Salonism, which you know, she 269 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: was charged with felonious assault and possession of a deadly weapon. 270 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: And I don't have her final sentence in front of me, 271 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 1: but I want to say she served what three years 272 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 1: in a psychiatric hospital. Yeah, so she didn't do like 273 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: hard prison time or anything. She went to some psychiatric hospitals, 274 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: which that was another thing that enraged her. She wanted 275 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 1: to do the hard time. So meanwhile, like as the 276 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 1: cases getting off the ground, radical feminist and chapter president 277 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: of the National Organization for Women, Tie Grace Atkinson urges 278 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: the organization at large to defend Salanis, Like, y'all, we 279 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: need to step up. This woman has followed through on 280 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: the rage that so many of us have been experiencing. Yeah, 281 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: and she was not alone in this sentiment of like, 282 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 1: let's circle the wagons around our rag feminist sister. There 283 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 1: were several accounts of several women, one who was even 284 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: living in Cuba at the time and she's like, oh, 285 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 1: I gotta get back to the States, And she ended 286 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: up founding was it Cell sixteen, which is another rad 287 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: fem group. Uh and listeners, if you have any more 288 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 1: information about them, I'd love to hear it. Um. But 289 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: there were a lot of women who just felt this 290 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: is the bat signal, like we need to be in 291 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 1: the States, We need to be in New York where 292 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: all of this is happening, Like we've gotten the rag 293 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: feminist man hating call, let's do this now. Meanwhile, of 294 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: course Betty for Dan, who was at the head of now, 295 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 1: was like, no, she didn't want to touch the lonest 296 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 1: with a ten football. In fact, she sent a telegram 297 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 1: at one point stating like, do not in any way 298 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 1: associate Valorie Salanas with the National Organization for Women. We 299 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 1: have nothing to do with her. And I'm sure Salanas 300 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, thank you, right, because for Betty. For Dan, 301 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: she saw salonas who was a queer woman, as first 302 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: of all, a quote unquote lavender menace, which we have 303 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,439 Speaker 1: a whole episode on that if you want to learn more. 304 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: But for Dan referred to lesbians as the lavender menace, 305 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: a menace potentially to the credibility of the National Organization 306 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: for Women, because she and others were terrified that this 307 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 1: whole stereotyping of feminists as lesbian man haters would just 308 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: ruin their chances of being taken seriously and getting feminist 309 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: legislation passed. Yeah, and so the trial starts and Salonis 310 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: actually waves her right to counsel. She wants to represent herself, 311 00:20:55,000 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: but she brings on the fabulous and incredible Florence Kennedy 312 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 1: as her legal advisor, and basically Kennedy argues that Salonis 313 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: is not insane, she's a feminist activist. And while Salonis 314 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: is like, yeah, no, I'm not insane. I meant to 315 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 1: do this, She's also like, no, no, I'm not doing 316 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: this out of feminist rage. I'm doing this because I'm pissed. Yeah, 317 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: I mean she it was more like an activist on 318 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 1: behalf of herself because she wanted her play to be produced. UM. 319 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 1: Also side note, Uh, Florence Kennedy was known for her 320 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: outrageous outfits. She would wear and buy outrageous. I just 321 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: mean she would. She wore a signature cowboy hat and 322 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: lots of vests and pants and pants, and those pants 323 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 1: not the cowboy hat. They riled up the judge who 324 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: reprimanded Florence Kennedy for her unladylike courtroom appearance. UM, and 325 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: I just wanted to pass that into to give a 326 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: little flavor for what what life was like back in 327 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: in the seventies. Kennedy and Hie Grace Atkinson and others 328 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: sort of recognize this, for they took the bat signal 329 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: rather literally, and they took this as, uh, the moment 330 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: to sort of move in. This was a great moment. 331 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 1: This is a great moment for me to wear pants 332 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: in the courtroom and talk back to the judge. This 333 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: as a great moment for all of us to circle 334 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: up and start the revolution and bring feminism regardless of 335 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 1: Salonis is true, um motivations. This is a great opportunity 336 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: for us to put feminism front and center on the 337 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: front page of the newspaper. So there was some some 338 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: feminist theater in a way going on. Um. But the 339 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 1: thing is, again like salanis considered feminists schmucks, and some 340 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: of this back and forth that you see of her, 341 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: you know, allowing Kennedy to come in as her legal 342 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: advisor and to some degree, um, working with Tie Grace Atkinson. 343 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: She would very quickly write them off and sometimes even 344 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: uh have violent outbursts against them because she had no 345 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: interest in contributing to a collective feminism. She was only 346 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: out for herself. And now obviously like a lot of 347 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: her erratic behavior was a product of U her schizophrenia. Um. 348 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: But at the time, I mean, it's just it's I 349 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: did not know about this chapter in second wave history 350 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: because it's it's it's bizarre, um, and kind of unthinkable 351 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: to rally around a woman because she shot a male icon, 352 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: you know, like like I'm not cool with gun violence. Um. 353 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: But clearly, I mean this is just sort of the 354 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: tenor of what was going on, and so it's no 355 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: surprise that there is a conversation then going on nationally 356 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: about man hating and about feminism, because if you are 357 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: far removed from the movement and don't know what's going 358 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: on with feminism or feminists, And all you see are 359 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: feminists aligning themselves with a woman who shot a man 360 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 1: and is a so called man hater and his managed 361 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 1: and she's unrepentant for shooting him too. Yeah, then you 362 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: might start to think, oh God, are they coming for me? 363 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: Are the women coming for me with pitchforks and torches? 364 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: So while Salanis did nothing but but probably burnish Warhol's 365 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: reputation even more, she ended up causing a schism within 366 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 1: the National Organization for Women and the women's lib movement 367 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 1: at large, kind of between the tie Grace Atkinson's and 368 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 1: the Betty for Dance, who were like, not, y'all, this 369 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 1: is is not what we are about. Um. And and again, 370 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 1: I mean, like, the the tragedy of it is that 371 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: this woman was mentally unstable. She was schizophrenic, and police 372 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 1: later nicknamed her scab Lady because this is after she 373 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: was kind of in and out of psychiatric wards and 374 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,959 Speaker 1: she ended up homeless and she would pick at her 375 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: skin obsessively, and she died in poverty at fifty two. 376 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: So I mean, she's she's a tragic figure for sure, um. 377 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 1: And yet she has become the embodiment of this, this 378 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 1: idea of the man hating feminist, even though yes, she 379 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: hated men, but she wasn't a feminist, right, But that 380 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,479 Speaker 1: doesn't matter really, it seems to anyone on any side 381 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: of this event, because she symbolized what people wanted her 382 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: to symbolize. Yeah, and we're going to get into how 383 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 1: Salonis's legacy reverberates still today. When we come right back 384 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: from a quick break now, before we get to modern 385 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: day feminism and the rise of ironic miss indry like 386 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 1: those mugs that say like male tears and things like that. Um, 387 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: we want to talk about this piece published in The 388 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: Village Voice in nineteen seventy two, written by Joanna Russ, 389 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: who was writing this in the post Salonis era. So 390 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 1: Salonis had happened, all of this panic about misndrist feminists 391 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 1: had been stoked, and she writes this essay called the 392 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: New miss Injury. And I gotta tell you, Kristen, I 393 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: had never even though this piece circulated um a lot 394 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: back around twenty eleven, so around the same time that 395 00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: you see that uptick in the use of the word missing, 396 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 1: which had not previously been used a whole time, I 397 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: never read it and uh reading it yesterday before we 398 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: came into the studio. UM, I read it a couple 399 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: of times because her writing and her concepts are beautiful, 400 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: um and and sad uh and tragic, because of course 401 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:25,360 Speaker 1: she's talking about missinry, but its counterpoint is misogyny, and 402 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,880 Speaker 1: she talks about one quote, for instance, is our men 403 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: are brought up to hate us, we are brought up 404 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: to love our men. In other words, of course, when 405 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: a woman, whether it was a suffragist back in the 406 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: day or a second waiver right now, um, at the 407 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: time that Russ was writing that piece, if a woman 408 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: steps out of the traditional norm and fights against men 409 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: as people would view it, of course she's a man hater. 410 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: She's a miss interest because women are taught to love 411 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: their men and and hold them as their protectors. And 412 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: because of that, she says, to be a misdrest a 413 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: woman needs considerable ingenuity, originality, and resilience. A misogynist requires 414 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 1: no such resources, obviously because patriarchy. And she brings up 415 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: an excellent point that while there's not a presumption that 416 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 1: misogynists want to kill all women or maim all women, 417 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: there is this bizarre connoting of blood lust with miss injury. 418 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: Maybe it's because of periods. I don't know, but things 419 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: get bloody really quickly. When we come for you, the 420 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: elevator doors will open like in the shining Yes. Um, 421 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: but she says, quote as if there were no difference 422 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: between feelings and acts, which, hello, hysteria, you know, so 423 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: so it makes sense, um. And then she lays out 424 00:28:53,960 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: these eight steps that really summarize sort of the gas 425 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: lighting effect of this man hating rhetoric. Yes, and she talks. 426 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: She basically explains the concept of the oppressed being expected 427 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: to be the ones who are saintly and pure and 428 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: well behaved and not complain about their oppressor. And this is, 429 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: you know, a similar kind of argument made by James 430 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: Baldwin and other people at the time who um during 431 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: the Civil rights movement were um tired of people of 432 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 1: color being expected to remain not violent, you know, whereas 433 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: white people turning violent is somehow okay. Yeah. So what 434 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: are what are these steps that Russ talks about. One 435 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: you do something nasty to me too, I hate you. 436 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: Three you find it uncomfortable to be hated for you. 437 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: Think how nice it would be if I didn't hate you? Five, 438 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: you decide I ought not to hate you because hate 439 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: is bad. Six. Good people don't hate seven because I 440 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: hate I'm a bad person. Eight. It is not what 441 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: you did to me that makes you hate me. It 442 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: is my own bad nature. I not you, am the 443 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: cause of my hating you. Yeah. It's like the apologies 444 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: of like, well, I'm sorry if that made you feel bad. Yeah, 445 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: I'm sorry if if you got offended, the backhanded apology exactly, 446 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: and so is that why? Sort of in a nutshell, 447 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: men's rights activists are so upset when you drink out 448 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: of a male tears mug, like when you're trying to 449 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: make light of a situation and they're like, no, you 450 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: can't not like me. I'm going to kill you now. 451 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: Oh I don't even want to start to try to 452 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: get inside the head of a men's rights activist. I mean, 453 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: you could say they don't get the joke, or they 454 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: don't think the joke is funny. Um, they're yeah, there 455 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: are a lot of a lot of things that could 456 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: be said. Um, but I had really never considered how 457 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: the whole man hating thing, calling women man haters, calling 458 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: feminist man haters in particular, is really used as a 459 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: red herring. It's such a loaded charge that really gaslights 460 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: you because if you're a man hater, like what what 461 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: a what an what an odious person? And no, I'm 462 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: not like saying like I mean because it's cool to 463 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: hate men, um, but just how that specific language is 464 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: has such a chilling effect. Yeah, that you should want 465 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: to still be under that norm of loving men and 466 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,239 Speaker 1: keeping them on their privilege pedestal. Sure, yeah, it's I mean, 467 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: because there's like a threatening edge to it too. It's like, well, 468 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: I mean, if because if you're a man hater, you know, 469 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: like no one's gonna like you, You're not no one's 470 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: gonna want to sleep with you and find you pretty, etcetera. 471 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: Is just like that that Joann arrusts essay, I think 472 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: just did a phenomenal job, especially considering the time to 473 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: like kind of reading it in the mindset of nineteen 474 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: seventy two as much as someone who wasn't alive, then 475 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: can um really offered some deeper perspective on what's usually 476 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: just like a knee jerk label. Yeah, and it makes 477 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: sense then that some men and women both are uncomfortable 478 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: with miss injury. She writes to accept miss injury is 479 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: to perceive what dreadful messes are made of our lives, 480 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: even if we are lucky enough to escape the worst 481 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: effects of our social structure. There are two kinds of 482 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: women who never hate men, the very lucky and the 483 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: very blind. So that's a lot to say, and I 484 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: would imagine that if you're a guy listening to that, Um, 485 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: that's a lot to hear. So I'm curious what what 486 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: made you want to read the essay a number of times? 487 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: And really what jumped out to you? Like, what what 488 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: do you feel about like that blunt of a statement? Um, Honestly, 489 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: it was just the the overarching feeling of it that 490 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: I got reading it, which, like I said, was one 491 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: of like power in naming it, but also just the 492 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: sadness of like, guys, we are living in the dark, Like, 493 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 1: let's turn the lights on. Nobody has to hate each 494 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: other like, but we have to have some real talk 495 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: with each other. We have to look each other in 496 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: the eye and recognize, like you do act out from 497 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: a position of privilege. I am not up on that 498 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 1: pedestal with you. I am the oppressed, and you still 499 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: expect me to love you because of my oppression, and 500 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: I just thought that it was sort of a brilliant 501 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: and I especially loved it because it was in the 502 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: context of N two, but it's still so relevant today. 503 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 1: I just thought it was a beautiful ease of writing 504 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: that summed up the feelings on both sides of Listen, 505 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 1: I'm mad at you for oppressing me, I'm tired of 506 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: being oppressed, and then the attitude of well, no, you 507 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: should stay oppressed otherwise I hate you. Mm hmm, yeah, 508 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: I mean. And so that leads us into this uh 509 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: digital ironic feminism um that has been cropping up more 510 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,320 Speaker 1: in like fourteen. I feel like it's kind of faded 511 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: a little bit. Um. But there was a terrific piece 512 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: by Jillian Horowitz, which is how we ended up on 513 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: that Village Voice essay from seventy two. Um. But Jillian 514 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: Horowitz over at Digital America wrote an essay called collecting 515 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: Male Tears, miss Injury and Weaponized Femininity on the Internet. 516 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: Love the idea of weaponized femininity, I know, I know. Um. 517 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: So she cites Joanna Russ as describing ironic miss injury 518 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 1: as a form of creative radical feminism, and I was like, oh, 519 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 1: tell me more Jillian Horowitz for the feminist who wants 520 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: major structural change, and it's like, wait, how can we 521 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 1: achieve major structural change by using like pink glittery gifts 522 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 1: of a spinning thing that says miss andry r male 523 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: tears or something. But she argues that it is that 524 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: super cute, hyper feminine packaging that weaponizes that feminist anger 525 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: and the devalued trappings of femininity. Yeah, and and to 526 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: back up for a second, like these days m r 527 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: A types men's rights activisty types contend that feminism in 528 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: particular has rendered white American men in particular an oppressed 529 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 1: minority because miss indry, yeah, miss indry being quote an 530 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: institutional enshrinement of man hating, as she puts it. And 531 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: so when we then deploy ironic miss injury in the 532 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 1: pace of that as a response to uh men's rights 533 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 1: activists crying oppression um and doing it in that package 534 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: of weaponized femininity, it's basically saying that, hey, sexist dudes, 535 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 1: your objectification suggests that women are nothing more than these harmless, 536 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: cute objects here for your pleasure. But in fact, in 537 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 1: the core of it, you see this right here, we 538 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: are mad, and we despise everything that you are standing 539 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: for right now. Um. And and that is also like 540 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 1: why I prefer to respond to um, rude dudes on 541 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: the internet who who come on say the stuff I've 542 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: never told you Facebook page and say ridiculous, uh, make 543 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: ridiculous allegations of miss injury with the manicure emoji just 544 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: saying I have no time just painting my nails. You're 545 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:03,359 Speaker 1: not going to disturb me. And also the cuteness of 546 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 1: a lot of the ironic miss and dream media makes 547 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: it impossible to land an effective comeback, like it's punching 548 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: a pillow. Yeah, and I mean it's it's kind of 549 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,920 Speaker 1: a way to troll the trolls, to total the misogynists, 550 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: because it's like what you can't you can't just laugh 551 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: at me using a male tears mug like I'm laughing 552 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,800 Speaker 1: at you, and that gets to you. The Margaret Atwood 553 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 1: quote of men are afraid that women will laugh at them. 554 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,279 Speaker 1: Women are afraid that men will kill them. Um. But 555 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 1: the gift that it has been rolling around in my 556 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 1: head now for the past fifteen minutes is the clip 557 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: from nine to five when Dolly Parton, Jane Fonda and 558 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:51,320 Speaker 1: Lee Tomlin are dressed as like like yie old maidens 559 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,879 Speaker 1: and are cheers in their goblets, and the gifts as 560 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:59,919 Speaker 1: miss injury, as beautiful pink font as they as they cheers. Well, 561 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: it's also sort of a take on like, why do 562 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 1: you think that women just celebrating womanhood and being feminists 563 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: automatically means that we hate men? Like That's it's calling 564 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: out the ridiculousness of assuming that all women who are 565 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 1: feminists are just out to kill men and manhood. Well, 566 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:23,839 Speaker 1: and for me like that, that gift is so joyful, okay. 567 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: And it's also the weaponizing of our like feminine and 568 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: feminist joy, not only our rage okay, but really weaponizing 569 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 1: feminist joy because we are supposed to be scared as 570 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,240 Speaker 1: women of an allegation that we are man haters, Because 571 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 1: what is worse than being undesired by a dude called 572 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: ugly or fat or whatever? Yeah, if we're speaking in 573 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 1: like patriarchal terms, So by flipping that on its head 574 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 1: and saying, oh, yeah, I hate all of this like 575 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: patriarchal garbage, and look I'm hanging with miladies and and 576 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,799 Speaker 1: cheers in because you all are are now terrified of 577 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:08,800 Speaker 1: us apparently. Um so, yeah, there there's some interesting layers 578 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 1: to it that don't sit well with everyone, of course, 579 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:17,320 Speaker 1: because really it's the Internet. Does anything sit well with everybody? Answer? No? Um. 580 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:22,720 Speaker 1: Chelsea Fagan, for instance, over at thought Catalog argues that 581 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 1: ironic miss injury smacks of privilege because it's collapsing all 582 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: male identities into the one like white, supremacist, capitalistic, but patriarchal, 583 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 1: so on and so forth. But does it? Is it 584 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: not just a like a quote unquote joyful reaction to 585 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:49,879 Speaker 1: the toxic masculinity that oppresses women. It's not like it's 586 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 1: not like I'm drinking my coffee out of my male tears, 587 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 1: mug at my male friends or my boyfriend, you know, 588 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:01,319 Speaker 1: like men that I love and who's you know, men 589 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 1: that I love and who have a wonderful place in 590 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 1: my life. Like well, and it also misses the point 591 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,799 Speaker 1: that argument, like, like I get that for sure, like 592 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 1: there are many male identities that are absolutely marginalized in 593 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 1: our society. Um, but that idea that it's bad because privilege, 594 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 1: I think is missing the point that, Um, this ironic 595 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 1: miss injury isn't about shaming individual people, but rather just 596 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 1: trying to dismantle or simply like, live within a patriarchal 597 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 1: society and still laugh at the end of the day. 598 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,239 Speaker 1: Otherwise we will cry female tears. Yeah. I mean, as 599 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: as Amanda Hess points out in August, guys were not 600 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,400 Speaker 1: actually bathing in male tears, were not individually trying to 601 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:56,280 Speaker 1: go from house to house laughing at men and kicking 602 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,840 Speaker 1: them in the shins and bathing in their tears. It 603 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:07,919 Speaker 1: all a sarcastic and ridiculous response to actual patriarchy and misogyny. Yeah. 604 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: I mean, you have all sorts of sarcastic hashtags that 605 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,239 Speaker 1: have popped up, um, not all men, which we absolutely 606 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,400 Speaker 1: overuse on this podcast, but I stand by it. Um. 607 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 1: Also the hashtag masculinity so fragile um. And someone could 608 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 1: easily say, well, all right, it's a joke, but let's 609 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,880 Speaker 1: flip the gender script. What if the joke was about women? 610 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,000 Speaker 1: And the answer is that is not a joke. That 611 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,759 Speaker 1: is patriarchy. But when we do talk about these mis 612 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:44,279 Speaker 1: indry jokes, Amanda has talked to a co founder of 613 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,840 Speaker 1: The Toast who is now um I believe she's a 614 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 1: contributing editor at The Establishment, Nicole Cliff, who is just 615 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:53,520 Speaker 1: brilliant and if you don't follow her on Twitter, you 616 00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 1: absolutely should. Um. Yeah, she and Nicole Cliff is the 617 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,400 Speaker 1: reason I'm watching Pole Dark now and PBS. It's a 618 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 1: terrible show, but I can't stop watching it. I've never 619 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,239 Speaker 1: been heard of it. We'll talk later, all right, So, 620 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: Has asked her, Um, you know about ironic miss injury 621 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 1: and the joke, because The Toasted has made a lot 622 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:17,600 Speaker 1: of brilliant satire around that theme, and Cliff essentially said, listen, 623 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: if we over analyze this, it ruins the joke. And 624 00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,480 Speaker 1: half of the fun is just the fact that uh 625 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:29,359 Speaker 1: m r as can't stand it, can't stand it makes 626 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:34,239 Speaker 1: them real mad, and um, sometimes it can. It can 627 00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,439 Speaker 1: be fun to troll the trolls, and that it's it's 628 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:41,160 Speaker 1: funny that it's pushing the idea of this vast underground 629 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:46,279 Speaker 1: anti male conspiracy that we're all in like Dr Evil's Layer, underground, 630 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,919 Speaker 1: like bathing ritualistically every morning in male tears, Like that's 631 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: funny because guys seriously really like it's all right? Well, 632 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,520 Speaker 1: and Has also and I agree with this. She thinks 633 00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 1: that it offers some relief from the intensity sometimes of 634 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 1: self identifying as a feminist, particularly on the Internet, and 635 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 1: also the critique that that can invite not from m 636 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,160 Speaker 1: R a s but from other self identified feminists. UM 637 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,240 Speaker 1: and Hess rights it can be freeing then to instead 638 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:24,719 Speaker 1: adopt an ironic stance that allows women to identify against 639 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,880 Speaker 1: what they are clearly not a cartoonish man hater bent 640 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:34,840 Speaker 1: on total male destruction. Yeah, and heth friend uh just 641 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:39,840 Speaker 1: Zimmerman who calls herself a professional misundrest, which is also 642 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,600 Speaker 1: part of the joke. UM responded to this article in 643 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:48,240 Speaker 1: which she was heavily quoted, and she also clarifies that like, Hey, 644 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,920 Speaker 1: my ironic miscendry that I like make a living around 645 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,680 Speaker 1: writing about it doesn't mean that I want to kill 646 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,920 Speaker 1: all men. But my ironic miscendry is pointed at killing 647 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:03,680 Speaker 1: the concept of math scalinity that breeds all of the 648 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: stuff that women have seen during the election, for instance, 649 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 1: I mean she was writing, but I would say that 650 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:16,120 Speaker 1: everything she's saying is also really valid for us right now, 651 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,600 Speaker 1: because you have people like Donald Trump, who sort of 652 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,920 Speaker 1: helped open the door to even more online abuse, if 653 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,000 Speaker 1: that's even possible. He's opened the locker room doors wide open, 654 00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,920 Speaker 1: and uh for listeners listening to this episode in the future. 655 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:34,480 Speaker 1: We're recording this about what two weeks away from the elections, 656 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:38,480 Speaker 1: so we are wound up tight, and you know, Zimmerman 657 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 1: and her piece does point out that like, hey, I 658 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,319 Speaker 1: have all of these guy friends who think it's hilarious, 659 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:47,520 Speaker 1: like they get it, and they consider themselves quote unquote 660 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,480 Speaker 1: miss and drifts as well. It's it's almost a way 661 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,799 Speaker 1: of separating like the cool guys who get it and 662 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,320 Speaker 1: support what women and feminists are doing from the guys 663 00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:01,920 Speaker 1: who clearly, maybe along the mar a lines, don't get it, 664 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:04,880 Speaker 1: and that she does want to reassure all of her 665 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,080 Speaker 1: dude gro friends that she's not trying to kill any 666 00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:12,960 Speaker 1: of them. Share your thoughts with us listeners. Mom Stuff 667 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com is our email address. 668 00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:19,319 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at man Hater's note at 669 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,680 Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast, or messages on Facebook. And we've got 670 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:24,880 Speaker 1: a couple of messages to share with you when we 671 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:34,040 Speaker 1: come right back from a quick break. All right, I've 672 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,320 Speaker 1: got one from Hillary In response to our episode Oprah 673 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,040 Speaker 1: was Not Built in a Day, she says it was 674 00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:43,120 Speaker 1: a truly great podcast. I very much appreciate your willingness 675 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,960 Speaker 1: to question the concept of failing fast, and to suggest 676 00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,400 Speaker 1: that this sort of failure is a luxury reserve for 677 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,080 Speaker 1: those few who have a very large and soft safety net. 678 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,600 Speaker 1: I've been a corporate lawyer from more than twenty years, 679 00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:56,680 Speaker 1: working first in a large national law firm dominated by 680 00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:59,360 Speaker 1: upper middle class white men. Now I serve as in 681 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:01,880 Speaker 1: house counts and the only woman in the C suite 682 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,840 Speaker 1: at a tech startup. In my view, fail fast is 683 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,320 Speaker 1: a new business self help scheme that is as helpful 684 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:12,680 Speaker 1: to personal happiness as the Secret is to true spiritual enlightenment. 685 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,320 Speaker 1: As Oprah would say, Here's what I know for sure. 686 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:20,319 Speaker 1: One those who fail fast don't fail, not in the 687 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:24,680 Speaker 1: way that the populace would define failure. Failure does not 688 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,880 Speaker 1: put their lives or livelihoods in peril. To be fair, 689 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,200 Speaker 1: they have no real experience with failure. It is a 690 00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,359 Speaker 1: distant and theoretical concept that has no place in their 691 00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:38,000 Speaker 1: one percent rarefied reality. Like minimum wage and community college too. 692 00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,960 Speaker 1: For those who fail, quote unquote fail failure has no 693 00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:45,800 Speaker 1: tangible consequence. Losing money is a demerit, not a disaster. 694 00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,000 Speaker 1: They don't get the highest grade in the class or 695 00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,520 Speaker 1: the winningest score on the tennis court, losing money is 696 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,880 Speaker 1: a version of humiliation, not real loss. After all, the 697 00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,240 Speaker 1: money lost wasn't made flipping burgers for fifty years at Wendy's. 698 00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,440 Speaker 1: It wasn't even theirs to lose. It was their corporate rations, 699 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,160 Speaker 1: funds and debts and dollars. And that money is not gone, 700 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,319 Speaker 1: not really. They can always get more, and not from 701 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:08,840 Speaker 1: payday loans or the local loan shark, but from a 702 00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,160 Speaker 1: variety of sources, from friends and family. Yes, this is 703 00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:15,680 Speaker 1: a real term used in the financing community to bridge financing. 704 00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:20,360 Speaker 1: Another term of art put simply the fake failure. Rottie 705 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,480 Speaker 1: won't worry about bus fair, they don't ride the bus, 706 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,520 Speaker 1: they won't scrape together rent, they already own their house, 707 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,359 Speaker 1: and they certainly won't go hungry unless it is part 708 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,919 Speaker 1: of the latest cleans. Three. Failing fast is a turn 709 00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:37,000 Speaker 1: of phrase that literally turns bad choices into premeditated strategies. 710 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,400 Speaker 1: In all of the deals I've done, from publicly traded 711 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,719 Speaker 1: companies to startups that thrived and startups that died, I 712 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,320 Speaker 1: have never seen any leader of a new company or 713 00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 1: product line or tech offering have a clear, crisp and 714 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:54,160 Speaker 1: consistent strategy against which failure could be identified, measured, and 715 00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,760 Speaker 1: quantified without a rubric for success. Failure is a fuzzy 716 00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,760 Speaker 1: and a morphous thought that can't be captured sept in retrospect. 717 00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:04,319 Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong, there is no need for rigid 718 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:06,960 Speaker 1: rules and specific strategies in the world that I work in. 719 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,799 Speaker 1: Businesses art not science, So the absence of scientific method 720 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,920 Speaker 1: is appropriate and necessary. But for those who want to 721 00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,880 Speaker 1: make business into something magical and knowable only to a 722 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 1: small group of wizards, well you have to believe in 723 00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,600 Speaker 1: the Emerald City and dismiss the idea that a few 724 00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,840 Speaker 1: smart people made some educated guesses who were also lucky 725 00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,200 Speaker 1: and had timing on their sides. In other words, you 726 00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:32,680 Speaker 1: have to believe in alchemy and wizards and revisionist history. 727 00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:37,800 Speaker 1: She goes on to say, um that failure, true failure, 728 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,320 Speaker 1: not quote unquote failure never comes fast. It is so 729 00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,560 Speaker 1: very slow. So she says, my favorite women of the 730 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:48,160 Speaker 1: podcasting world, let me confirm your suspicions. Oprah is the 731 00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:50,839 Speaker 1: definition of hard one success. There is not a thing 732 00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,920 Speaker 1: about her or her history that smacks of failure. Oprah 733 00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,640 Speaker 1: just found her path through trial and error. Mostly she 734 00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:58,680 Speaker 1: did the bravest thing a person can do, she let 735 00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:02,160 Speaker 1: herself be known well. Thank you, Hillary for all of 736 00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,799 Speaker 1: your valuable perspective. I have a letter here from Kate, 737 00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:10,400 Speaker 1: also in response to our episode on failing, and she writes, 738 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:12,560 Speaker 1: I wanted to start this out by saying thank you 739 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,360 Speaker 1: thanks for your podcast in general, which often helps me 740 00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:18,719 Speaker 1: organize my thoughts about social and political issues and gives 741 00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:20,680 Speaker 1: me ton of cool things to talk about with friends 742 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:24,280 Speaker 1: and family, and thank you specifically for this most recent 743 00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,600 Speaker 1: episode on failure. Like you, A lot of these ideas 744 00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:30,720 Speaker 1: in this episode hit me really close to home. For example, 745 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,160 Speaker 1: I recently had a conversation with my family in which 746 00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,800 Speaker 1: they were encouraging me to apply for a promotion at work. 747 00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:38,360 Speaker 1: My response was that I wasn't sure I would get it, 748 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:40,319 Speaker 1: so I wanted to wait until next year when it 749 00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,080 Speaker 1: was more certain. I never realized this was such a 750 00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,480 Speaker 1: common refrain among women. I've only been with a company 751 00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:48,479 Speaker 1: for half a year, but I'm doing the same work 752 00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:50,680 Speaker 1: as folks who are one and two levels above me. 753 00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:54,080 Speaker 1: Thanks to your podcast, I've decided to face my fears 754 00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,960 Speaker 1: and bring this up in my performance review next month 755 00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,120 Speaker 1: and asked to be promoted if I get it. You 756 00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,640 Speaker 1: two will be directly responsible for helping a woman in 757 00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:06,600 Speaker 1: tech move up the leadership ladder. Hooray you. If I 758 00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:08,920 Speaker 1: don't get it, at least I tried and it won't 759 00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:12,440 Speaker 1: have to be quite so scary the next time. Okate, 760 00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,920 Speaker 1: that is so so great to hear, and I wish 761 00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,480 Speaker 1: you all of the best luck in that performance review. 762 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:21,720 Speaker 1: And I will tell you, as someone who who works 763 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:25,400 Speaker 1: in digital media, um, the more the more data you 764 00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:29,279 Speaker 1: can bring to to buffer your case, the better uh 765 00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:33,600 Speaker 1: data you know, you know. But Kate, that's that's awesome. 766 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,799 Speaker 1: I'm so happy to hear that. And listeners share your 767 00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,160 Speaker 1: stories with us as well. Mom stuff at how stuff 768 00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:42,399 Speaker 1: works dot com is our email address and for links 769 00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:44,319 Speaker 1: to all of our social media as well as all 770 00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:47,040 Speaker 1: of our blogs, videos and podcasts with our sources. So 771 00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:50,239 Speaker 1: you can learn more about Missinjry, head on over to 772 00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:57,759 Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for more on 773 00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,320 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Does it how stuff 774 00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:08,720 Speaker 1: works dot com