1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:26,276 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:26,356 --> 00:00:29,316 Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:29,756 --> 00:00:37,316 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. There's no more pressing question facing the 4 00:00:37,396 --> 00:00:40,396 Speaker 1: United States today, or really at any time, than the 5 00:00:40,436 --> 00:00:46,076 Speaker 1: relationship between race, crime and incarceration. Today, one in every 6 00:00:46,116 --> 00:00:49,996 Speaker 1: three young African American men is locked up. That's a 7 00:00:50,036 --> 00:00:52,956 Speaker 1: moral crisis, and it's one that has troubled leaders in 8 00:00:52,996 --> 00:00:55,236 Speaker 1: the United States, white and black for most of the 9 00:00:55,276 --> 00:00:59,076 Speaker 1: last century and a half. To talk about this crucial question, 10 00:00:59,356 --> 00:01:03,276 Speaker 1: I'm joined by Khalil Jiubran Muhammad. He's professor of history, 11 00:01:03,396 --> 00:01:06,636 Speaker 1: race and public Policy at Harvard and he's the author 12 00:01:06,716 --> 00:01:11,236 Speaker 1: of a deeply insightful and prize winning book called Condemning Blackness. 13 00:01:12,076 --> 00:01:14,076 Speaker 1: He's one of the leading thinkers in the United States 14 00:01:14,436 --> 00:01:17,676 Speaker 1: on the deep causes and potential solutions to what he 15 00:01:17,756 --> 00:01:21,636 Speaker 1: sometimes calls the carceral state, the state that puts people 16 00:01:21,676 --> 00:01:24,876 Speaker 1: in prison. Khalil, thank you so much for joining us. 17 00:01:25,076 --> 00:01:29,236 Speaker 1: Glad to be here. So, Khalil, you're a historian. Your 18 00:01:29,636 --> 00:01:33,276 Speaker 1: major book really a field changing book that came out 19 00:01:33,316 --> 00:01:37,476 Speaker 1: almost a decade ago. Not quite No, that's a that's 20 00:01:37,476 --> 00:01:39,276 Speaker 1: a good thing. I mean, when you transform a field, 21 00:01:39,276 --> 00:01:41,876 Speaker 1: you know, it takes time for it to spread to everybody. 22 00:01:42,476 --> 00:01:45,276 Speaker 1: The book's called The Condemnation of Blackness, Race Crime, and 23 00:01:45,316 --> 00:01:47,916 Speaker 1: the Making of Modern Urban America. You showed in the 24 00:01:47,956 --> 00:01:52,676 Speaker 1: book that this phenomenon of white people in the white 25 00:01:52,676 --> 00:01:57,556 Speaker 1: power structure thinking of African Americans as criminals to be imprisoned, 26 00:01:58,436 --> 00:02:02,516 Speaker 1: goes back way beyond that period. That there is no 27 00:02:02,596 --> 00:02:07,036 Speaker 1: idyllic picture of nineteen fifties and sixties. The idyllic picture 28 00:02:07,516 --> 00:02:10,716 Speaker 1: never existed in fact at all. With respect of these questions, 29 00:02:12,076 --> 00:02:15,956 Speaker 1: you take us back to the period immediately after reconstruction 30 00:02:16,036 --> 00:02:18,836 Speaker 1: or the failed reconstruction in the wake of the Civil War. 31 00:02:20,116 --> 00:02:23,476 Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about your core story there, 32 00:02:23,556 --> 00:02:30,356 Speaker 1: about what fundamentally didn't happen after the end of slavery. Yeah. 33 00:02:30,396 --> 00:02:35,356 Speaker 1: So the easiest way to think about the origin story 34 00:02:36,196 --> 00:02:41,636 Speaker 1: is that for most of the last fifty years, Americans 35 00:02:41,676 --> 00:02:44,916 Speaker 1: have been thinking about a racism in our criminal justice 36 00:02:44,956 --> 00:02:50,396 Speaker 1: past that ran through Southern lynch mobs and convictly sing. 37 00:02:51,356 --> 00:02:55,796 Speaker 1: And if you sort of pull the average white American 38 00:02:55,876 --> 00:02:57,996 Speaker 1: on the street, they would say, yeah, that was a 39 00:02:58,036 --> 00:03:01,316 Speaker 1: bad time in American history, even the Marchicket. Anyone to 40 00:03:01,316 --> 00:03:03,356 Speaker 1: speak in favor of lynching today. Yeah, Like even the 41 00:03:03,396 --> 00:03:06,556 Speaker 1: most red meat Republican you know is proud of the 42 00:03:06,596 --> 00:03:09,276 Speaker 1: civil rights movement and it uses that moment and it 43 00:03:09,356 --> 00:03:12,036 Speaker 1: is precisely a break point to say that in everything 44 00:03:12,076 --> 00:03:16,796 Speaker 1: that happens now is about individual responsibility. But it turns out, 45 00:03:17,476 --> 00:03:19,716 Speaker 1: because of the work that many historians have done looking 46 00:03:19,716 --> 00:03:22,676 Speaker 1: at the South in particular, we know that that was 47 00:03:22,716 --> 00:03:25,236 Speaker 1: an era when the criminal justice system did the work 48 00:03:25,356 --> 00:03:29,036 Speaker 1: that chattle slavery once did. So people who had been 49 00:03:29,436 --> 00:03:32,996 Speaker 1: enslaved and forced to use their labor on behalf of 50 00:03:32,996 --> 00:03:36,996 Speaker 1: white slaveholders get arrested for petty or significant crimes, doesn't matter. 51 00:03:37,436 --> 00:03:40,516 Speaker 1: They get put into chain gangs or prisons, and those 52 00:03:40,596 --> 00:03:45,276 Speaker 1: become the kind of second rebirth, as it were, of slavery, Yeah, 53 00:03:45,316 --> 00:03:49,036 Speaker 1: to use that metaphor. But more particularly their labor and 54 00:03:49,076 --> 00:03:52,436 Speaker 1: their new civil rights, in particularly the right to vote, 55 00:03:53,356 --> 00:03:57,276 Speaker 1: become contested to reign for their own autonomy as economic beings. 56 00:03:57,356 --> 00:04:01,676 Speaker 1: Like do you actually get to own land and negotiate 57 00:04:01,716 --> 00:04:05,156 Speaker 1: contracts that are mutually beneficial or at least fair to you? 58 00:04:05,396 --> 00:04:07,676 Speaker 1: They answer kind of is no, because the more that 59 00:04:07,796 --> 00:04:11,556 Speaker 1: you demand an autonomy and agency as a black Southerner 60 00:04:11,796 --> 00:04:14,916 Speaker 1: one step out of slavery, the more likely you were 61 00:04:15,156 --> 00:04:19,356 Speaker 1: to face the wrath of white property owners, which essentially 62 00:04:19,476 --> 00:04:22,316 Speaker 1: was regulated by the criminal justice system. They just simply 63 00:04:22,356 --> 00:04:24,116 Speaker 1: called the sheriff and say this person is a vagrant, 64 00:04:24,196 --> 00:04:26,596 Speaker 1: arrest them, and then you might be subject to a 65 00:04:26,636 --> 00:04:28,956 Speaker 1: sheriff's auction and sold back to the same person you 66 00:04:29,036 --> 00:04:32,236 Speaker 1: were just negotiating a labor contract with as now a 67 00:04:32,276 --> 00:04:34,436 Speaker 1: convict who has to work off their fine, and you 68 00:04:34,516 --> 00:04:36,956 Speaker 1: might never work off that fine. So a really important 69 00:04:37,036 --> 00:04:39,156 Speaker 1: part of that story that I think is not known 70 00:04:39,236 --> 00:04:41,836 Speaker 1: to a lot of people who do understand that there 71 00:04:41,916 --> 00:04:44,636 Speaker 1: was an era of segregation and Jim Crow laws that 72 00:04:44,716 --> 00:04:48,396 Speaker 1: followed the failure of reconstruction is the component that involved 73 00:04:48,436 --> 00:04:51,236 Speaker 1: taking African Americans who wanted to assert their rights that 74 00:04:51,276 --> 00:04:56,476 Speaker 1: they in theory had and literally imprisoning them and through imprisonment, 75 00:04:57,116 --> 00:05:01,756 Speaker 1: returning their labor to white landholders, to the white power 76 00:05:01,796 --> 00:05:04,876 Speaker 1: structure of the South. That's right, And even something like 77 00:05:04,916 --> 00:05:08,596 Speaker 1: felony disenfranchisement laws, which we just saw in Florida for example, 78 00:05:08,636 --> 00:05:11,636 Speaker 1: come down out off the books, were born in this 79 00:05:11,756 --> 00:05:15,956 Speaker 1: era as a way of again controlling the political autonomy 80 00:05:15,956 --> 00:05:18,156 Speaker 1: of the black population that then was voting for the 81 00:05:18,196 --> 00:05:21,676 Speaker 1: Republican Party and very much opposed to a lot of 82 00:05:21,676 --> 00:05:24,596 Speaker 1: the most extreme forms of white supremacy that we're entrined 83 00:05:24,636 --> 00:05:27,876 Speaker 1: in the Democratic Party of the One Party South. So 84 00:05:28,076 --> 00:05:30,836 Speaker 1: there's no moment to your point, your initial point, in 85 00:05:30,876 --> 00:05:36,036 Speaker 1: the post slavery period, when the notion of black criminality 86 00:05:36,276 --> 00:05:39,516 Speaker 1: and the function of criminal justice are not deeply invested 87 00:05:39,556 --> 00:05:44,316 Speaker 1: in controlling black freedom. So that's a story about Southern 88 00:05:44,396 --> 00:05:48,476 Speaker 1: white control of mostly Southern African Americans. Not only is 89 00:05:48,796 --> 00:05:51,796 Speaker 1: people's labor only momentarily given back to them an in theory, 90 00:05:51,836 --> 00:05:54,516 Speaker 1: and then taken away from them through the criminal justice system, 91 00:05:54,556 --> 00:05:56,876 Speaker 1: and I put them in quotation marks, but even the 92 00:05:56,996 --> 00:05:59,636 Speaker 1: right to vote is then taken away on the theory 93 00:05:59,636 --> 00:06:01,636 Speaker 1: that if you've been committed of a crime, you no 94 00:06:01,676 --> 00:06:04,196 Speaker 1: longer have the right to vote. But your book is 95 00:06:04,276 --> 00:06:07,636 Speaker 1: also really importantly a Northern story, a story about the 96 00:06:07,676 --> 00:06:11,316 Speaker 1: part of the country where people like to tell themselves, 97 00:06:11,396 --> 00:06:13,796 Speaker 1: or white people they like to tell themselves, well, that 98 00:06:13,956 --> 00:06:17,356 Speaker 1: never happened. Jim Crowe did not exist in the Northern States. 99 00:06:18,756 --> 00:06:21,716 Speaker 1: Tell us about what happens, especially as African Americans in 100 00:06:21,796 --> 00:06:24,756 Speaker 1: larger and larger numbers begin to come north for jobs 101 00:06:24,756 --> 00:06:27,236 Speaker 1: as part of the Great Migration. Yeah. So the reason 102 00:06:27,276 --> 00:06:30,476 Speaker 1: why that backstory is so important is because it produced 103 00:06:30,876 --> 00:06:34,876 Speaker 1: what I like to say, an artifact. And that artifact, 104 00:06:35,196 --> 00:06:39,276 Speaker 1: that thing that came as a result of all this contestation, 105 00:06:39,356 --> 00:06:43,316 Speaker 1: in all this criminalization of black Southerners, was a national 106 00:06:43,396 --> 00:06:46,756 Speaker 1: census that pointed out that African Americans, who were only 107 00:06:46,756 --> 00:06:49,156 Speaker 1: twelve percent of the general population, with thirty percent of 108 00:06:49,156 --> 00:06:52,716 Speaker 1: the nation's prisoners. And so all of a sudden, overnight, 109 00:06:52,876 --> 00:06:57,756 Speaker 1: you have this subjective fact, an actual fact that looks 110 00:06:57,796 --> 00:07:00,036 Speaker 1: like black people have a crime problem because they're nearly 111 00:07:00,036 --> 00:07:04,556 Speaker 1: three times overrepresented in the national prison statistics. And the 112 00:07:04,636 --> 00:07:06,276 Speaker 1: question is what do we make of this? Why is 113 00:07:06,276 --> 00:07:09,156 Speaker 1: this important? So let's really dig into this question of 114 00:07:09,236 --> 00:07:11,356 Speaker 1: the census of eighteen ninety. You know, I'm one of 115 00:07:11,396 --> 00:07:13,556 Speaker 1: those people who I've always been interested in American history, 116 00:07:13,596 --> 00:07:16,036 Speaker 1: but when someone says the word census, my eyes usually 117 00:07:16,036 --> 00:07:19,436 Speaker 1: glaze over. And reading your book, I was really hit 118 00:07:19,796 --> 00:07:21,916 Speaker 1: that much like the upcoming census, which is much in 119 00:07:21,916 --> 00:07:25,996 Speaker 1: the news because of the possible consequences of a citizenship question, 120 00:07:26,316 --> 00:07:27,836 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, in fact is going to weigh in 121 00:07:27,876 --> 00:07:30,116 Speaker 1: on this sometime in the before at the end of June. 122 00:07:30,116 --> 00:07:34,116 Speaker 1: I guess, much like the current census, which has real weight, 123 00:07:34,156 --> 00:07:37,996 Speaker 1: real political controversy associated with it, the eighteen ninety census, 124 00:07:37,996 --> 00:07:40,796 Speaker 1: which I myself had never heard of before. I don't 125 00:07:40,836 --> 00:07:42,556 Speaker 1: think any of my great grandparents were in the country 126 00:07:42,556 --> 00:07:44,516 Speaker 1: for that census, so I never bothered to look it up, 127 00:07:46,036 --> 00:07:49,756 Speaker 1: really had a transformative effect on the way first scholars 128 00:07:49,756 --> 00:07:52,636 Speaker 1: and the the general public thought about race and crime 129 00:07:52,996 --> 00:07:57,076 Speaker 1: in America. So you mentioned this statistical result of the 130 00:07:57,116 --> 00:08:02,076 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety census, disproportionate in theory representation of African Americans 131 00:08:02,676 --> 00:08:05,876 Speaker 1: in prison right, African Americans twelve percent of the population, 132 00:08:05,876 --> 00:08:11,356 Speaker 1: I think you said, and thirty percent nations prisoners. What 133 00:08:11,476 --> 00:08:14,116 Speaker 1: was really going on there? There's there's a whole steep 134 00:08:14,196 --> 00:08:17,956 Speaker 1: story here. Give us the essence of it. Yeah, the 135 00:08:18,316 --> 00:08:23,596 Speaker 1: essence is that eighteen ninety was a perfect generational cohort moment. 136 00:08:24,236 --> 00:08:27,436 Speaker 1: This is twenty five years after the end of slavery, 137 00:08:28,036 --> 00:08:32,356 Speaker 1: and a lot of demographers, a lot of journalists, a 138 00:08:32,396 --> 00:08:35,916 Speaker 1: lot of vested interest wanted to see how we're black 139 00:08:35,956 --> 00:08:38,836 Speaker 1: people faring on their own. If you think of all 140 00:08:38,836 --> 00:08:43,636 Speaker 1: the craziness that took place for wild eyed, radical white 141 00:08:43,676 --> 00:08:46,836 Speaker 1: abolitionists to literally lay their bodies on the line in 142 00:08:46,916 --> 00:08:49,996 Speaker 1: defense of black humanity for those who believed it. Others 143 00:08:49,996 --> 00:08:52,756 Speaker 1: had other reasons. But nevertheless, if you take John Brown 144 00:08:52,836 --> 00:08:54,476 Speaker 1: did exist, that's right, John Brown did so. If you 145 00:08:54,476 --> 00:08:57,876 Speaker 1: take the purest motive of the abolitionist, they essentially argued 146 00:08:57,916 --> 00:09:00,476 Speaker 1: that black people were no different than white people. And 147 00:09:00,556 --> 00:09:02,996 Speaker 1: if you listen to Brian Stevenson today who says, we 148 00:09:03,076 --> 00:09:05,276 Speaker 1: won the Civil War, but we would lost the narrative battle. 149 00:09:05,556 --> 00:09:09,036 Speaker 1: In many ways, those wild eyed abolitionists lost the narrative 150 00:09:09,116 --> 00:09:12,676 Speaker 1: addle eventually, because as soon as the eighteen ninety census 151 00:09:12,796 --> 00:09:16,356 Speaker 1: came out, people look to that senses to then judge 152 00:09:16,556 --> 00:09:19,756 Speaker 1: the health and welfare the fitness of the black population. 153 00:09:19,796 --> 00:09:22,156 Speaker 1: They said, hey, well, sure, someone born in eighteen sixty 154 00:09:22,156 --> 00:09:25,076 Speaker 1: six is now twenty five years old later, they're an adult. 155 00:09:25,156 --> 00:09:28,036 Speaker 1: How are they faring. Oh, it looks like a third 156 00:09:28,076 --> 00:09:30,276 Speaker 1: of the population of black people are now in prison 157 00:09:30,796 --> 00:09:35,516 Speaker 1: as opposed to landowners or business owners, in other words, 158 00:09:35,516 --> 00:09:38,996 Speaker 1: showing their productive capacity making a real contribution to America. 159 00:09:39,076 --> 00:09:41,836 Speaker 1: And what that did is mask it masked all of 160 00:09:41,836 --> 00:09:45,276 Speaker 1: that history on the ground that was happening that made 161 00:09:45,276 --> 00:09:49,116 Speaker 1: those statistics virtually irrelevant. And I can just think off 162 00:09:49,116 --> 00:09:50,436 Speaker 1: the top of my head, and you write about this 163 00:09:50,476 --> 00:09:52,116 Speaker 1: a greater length in your book. Of things that would 164 00:09:52,196 --> 00:09:56,716 Speaker 1: make those statistics highly misleading, even assuming they're correct, one 165 00:09:56,756 --> 00:09:59,196 Speaker 1: that you talked about is length of prison sentence. How 166 00:09:59,236 --> 00:10:02,196 Speaker 1: did that work? Yeah, Well, if as is true today, 167 00:10:02,236 --> 00:10:05,396 Speaker 1: if Abrican Americans are serving longer time for the same crime, 168 00:10:05,716 --> 00:10:08,356 Speaker 1: they're more likely to be in prison on the day 169 00:10:08,356 --> 00:10:11,476 Speaker 1: a census, because the census is just a literal snapshot. 170 00:10:11,516 --> 00:10:13,556 Speaker 1: It's supposed to be on one day, that's right, And 171 00:10:13,596 --> 00:10:16,316 Speaker 1: so that's just one example. Or if a population over 172 00:10:16,356 --> 00:10:20,636 Speaker 1: indexes for men, then their expected crime rates or in 173 00:10:20,676 --> 00:10:23,596 Speaker 1: this case incarceration rate is expected to hire. Or if 174 00:10:23,636 --> 00:10:26,396 Speaker 1: a population over index is for being young. So all 175 00:10:26,436 --> 00:10:29,036 Speaker 1: those facts, and what about arrests, what about probability of 176 00:10:29,076 --> 00:10:32,436 Speaker 1: being arrested? Well, every probably being convicted. You can imagine 177 00:10:32,476 --> 00:10:35,236 Speaker 1: point after a point, every decision point within the criminal 178 00:10:35,276 --> 00:10:39,196 Speaker 1: justice system, from police contact, to prosecution and to sentencing 179 00:10:39,676 --> 00:10:44,916 Speaker 1: were all evident points for absolute discrimination being directed against 180 00:10:44,956 --> 00:10:48,076 Speaker 1: black people. Now, the reason this has such an impact 181 00:10:48,196 --> 00:10:50,876 Speaker 1: is partly that it's eighteen ninety and that's a kind 182 00:10:50,916 --> 00:10:55,836 Speaker 1: of perfect storm moment for the birth of the American 183 00:10:55,956 --> 00:11:01,596 Speaker 1: obsession with data with numbers, where we think the data 184 00:11:01,716 --> 00:11:04,756 Speaker 1: say it, it must be true. I sometimes say that 185 00:11:04,796 --> 00:11:06,916 Speaker 1: the words that make me most unhappy in English language 186 00:11:06,916 --> 00:11:09,556 Speaker 1: are the words the three little words. The data shows 187 00:11:09,956 --> 00:11:13,436 Speaker 1: that's right. So what was it about that moment that 188 00:11:13,596 --> 00:11:17,356 Speaker 1: made people especially prime to say, well, hey, it's in 189 00:11:17,396 --> 00:11:19,436 Speaker 1: the data, it must be true. Well, this is where 190 00:11:19,436 --> 00:11:24,996 Speaker 1: your question about the North really matters, because one story 191 00:11:25,196 --> 00:11:28,116 Speaker 1: of this period, in particularly the end of reconstruction, which 192 00:11:28,116 --> 00:11:30,676 Speaker 1: happened with a presidential compromise in the election of the 193 00:11:30,676 --> 00:11:34,196 Speaker 1: contested election of eighteen seventy seven, where miraculously Florida first 194 00:11:34,196 --> 00:11:37,076 Speaker 1: shows up as a controversial state. Yeah, that's a that's 195 00:11:37,116 --> 00:11:40,956 Speaker 1: a very strange one. The whole eighteen seventy six the election, 196 00:11:41,196 --> 00:11:43,796 Speaker 1: Just in case you're wondering, the election was a tie, 197 00:11:44,276 --> 00:11:46,916 Speaker 1: and then they figured it out by a very very 198 00:11:47,076 --> 00:11:50,796 Speaker 1: complicated and strange political process with a special commission with 199 00:11:50,836 --> 00:11:53,516 Speaker 1: Supreme Court justices and all kinds of shenanigans, and it 200 00:11:53,596 --> 00:11:56,676 Speaker 1: ended up with Rutherford B. Hayes the first president ever 201 00:11:56,756 --> 00:12:00,756 Speaker 1: to graduate from Harvard Law School. Not very memorable becoming 202 00:12:00,756 --> 00:12:03,396 Speaker 1: president United State's. Luckily, our second president, Barack Obama did 203 00:12:03,396 --> 00:12:05,556 Speaker 1: a little better for us. But go on, So going 204 00:12:05,596 --> 00:12:09,476 Speaker 1: with your point. So this was an exhausting process, and 205 00:12:09,676 --> 00:12:12,796 Speaker 1: one manifestation of this was what you might call racial fatigue. 206 00:12:12,836 --> 00:12:15,836 Speaker 1: The North was kind of tired of the race problem, 207 00:12:15,876 --> 00:12:19,396 Speaker 1: tired of dealing with Southerners, tired of worrying about black people, 208 00:12:19,436 --> 00:12:23,396 Speaker 1: and so they sort of took their they firearms, and 209 00:12:23,556 --> 00:12:28,476 Speaker 1: took their tanks and their presence and pulled out of 210 00:12:28,476 --> 00:12:31,756 Speaker 1: the South. And so reconstruction ends and the North turns 211 00:12:31,756 --> 00:12:35,116 Speaker 1: to the business of industrialization, leaving black people essentially on 212 00:12:35,156 --> 00:12:38,156 Speaker 1: their own. And as a consequence, that was just the 213 00:12:38,196 --> 00:12:42,876 Speaker 1: beginning of a process of what we call national reconciliation. 214 00:12:43,516 --> 00:12:46,396 Speaker 1: It was a process where the South sort of began 215 00:12:46,436 --> 00:12:49,396 Speaker 1: to rewrite the narrative of the Civil War first period, 216 00:12:49,436 --> 00:12:52,996 Speaker 1: when monuments start to go up to celebrate the Confederacy 217 00:12:53,636 --> 00:12:56,316 Speaker 1: and the North is kind of tired. We began to 218 00:12:56,356 --> 00:13:00,396 Speaker 1: see early writings by Northern scholars that began to shift 219 00:13:00,436 --> 00:13:05,476 Speaker 1: the conversation away from Southern racism to black pathology. And 220 00:13:05,676 --> 00:13:10,836 Speaker 1: it's that moment where the North begins to articulate its 221 00:13:10,916 --> 00:13:15,436 Speaker 1: own understanding of black people's inferiority, and mostly for them, 222 00:13:15,476 --> 00:13:18,236 Speaker 1: it's a kind of temporal thing. It's like, well, of course, 223 00:13:18,316 --> 00:13:22,676 Speaker 1: since they were slaves, now for now they need time 224 00:13:22,796 --> 00:13:25,356 Speaker 1: to what they would often say, work out their own salvation. 225 00:13:26,076 --> 00:13:29,236 Speaker 1: And they turned to crime statistics to kind of justify 226 00:13:29,996 --> 00:13:33,036 Speaker 1: what we might recognize today as a post racial logic. 227 00:13:33,556 --> 00:13:36,556 Speaker 1: And in their moment, the post racial logic was where 228 00:13:36,556 --> 00:13:38,516 Speaker 1: what you mean by post racial? Yeah, well, what I 229 00:13:38,556 --> 00:13:43,356 Speaker 1: mean is that to identify black people as more criminal, 230 00:13:43,596 --> 00:13:48,396 Speaker 1: as more illiterate, as less capable of self governance for 231 00:13:48,436 --> 00:13:51,236 Speaker 1: them in the eighteen nineties turn of the twentieth century 232 00:13:51,436 --> 00:13:54,676 Speaker 1: was not understood to be racist. It was objective. It 233 00:13:54,716 --> 00:13:58,036 Speaker 1: was historical because it was less racist than the old 234 00:13:58,276 --> 00:14:01,756 Speaker 1: pre Civil War idea that African records are just inferior, 235 00:14:01,796 --> 00:14:04,316 Speaker 1: Black people are just inferior. So then compared to that, 236 00:14:04,476 --> 00:14:06,636 Speaker 1: it's post racial to say, what's not the black people 237 00:14:06,636 --> 00:14:09,276 Speaker 1: are inferior, they just tend to be criminal. Yes, in 238 00:14:09,556 --> 00:14:12,636 Speaker 1: a nutshell, because it still sounds I mean us now now, 239 00:14:12,676 --> 00:14:14,756 Speaker 1: it still sounds completely racist. So it sounds weird. Don't 240 00:14:14,756 --> 00:14:16,276 Speaker 1: think if it is post racial. Well, but you're saying 241 00:14:16,276 --> 00:14:18,076 Speaker 1: it's a different form of racist. It's a different form 242 00:14:18,116 --> 00:14:21,116 Speaker 1: of racism. But this is why the story of this 243 00:14:21,156 --> 00:14:24,756 Speaker 1: early period matters so much to us today, because if 244 00:14:24,796 --> 00:14:29,236 Speaker 1: we miss that logic, if we miss an understanding that 245 00:14:29,356 --> 00:14:32,276 Speaker 1: for and I write a lot about liberals, if we 246 00:14:32,396 --> 00:14:35,516 Speaker 1: miss that, what they're saying is it's not in their blood. 247 00:14:36,076 --> 00:14:40,276 Speaker 1: It's not that they're incapable. They just need more opportunities, 248 00:14:40,676 --> 00:14:45,476 Speaker 1: they need more education, they need more time to build 249 00:14:45,476 --> 00:14:49,876 Speaker 1: their families so that they can adopt our values. And 250 00:14:50,116 --> 00:14:52,476 Speaker 1: once they have all of this, they'll be able to 251 00:14:52,516 --> 00:14:57,476 Speaker 1: participate fully. So it was a recipe for eventual inclusion 252 00:14:57,956 --> 00:15:02,116 Speaker 1: and acceptance and full assimilation. But it was predicated on 253 00:15:02,156 --> 00:15:05,276 Speaker 1: what essentially the South was saying, which is that these 254 00:15:05,316 --> 00:15:11,476 Speaker 1: people are insufferable. If you've been high and mighty and 255 00:15:11,676 --> 00:15:16,436 Speaker 1: taking the high horse and being righteous, self righteous about 256 00:15:16,476 --> 00:15:19,716 Speaker 1: the North being free of slavery stain in the nineteenth century, 257 00:15:19,956 --> 00:15:22,156 Speaker 1: will wait till they show up at your doorstep, wait 258 00:15:22,156 --> 00:15:23,916 Speaker 1: till they move to your neighborhood. So you know, it's 259 00:15:23,956 --> 00:15:26,916 Speaker 1: not a perfect comparison at all. But one interesting way 260 00:15:26,956 --> 00:15:30,076 Speaker 1: to think about this for a contemporary comparison is the 261 00:15:30,196 --> 00:15:34,236 Speaker 1: US efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan to rebuild, and indeed 262 00:15:34,276 --> 00:15:37,316 Speaker 1: reconstruct we even use that same word, believe it or not, 263 00:15:37,676 --> 00:15:40,036 Speaker 1: societies that we had invaded, that the United States had 264 00:15:40,036 --> 00:15:44,196 Speaker 1: invaded by creating new social norms, new social dynamics, and 265 00:15:44,276 --> 00:15:46,196 Speaker 1: the US. I'm not saying this is the reason that 266 00:15:46,236 --> 00:15:49,356 Speaker 1: the United States invaded Iraq and Afghanistan anymore than it 267 00:15:49,396 --> 00:15:51,956 Speaker 1: was the original cause of the Civil War to liberate 268 00:15:51,956 --> 00:15:53,876 Speaker 1: African Americans. It wasn't the original cause of the war 269 00:15:53,916 --> 00:15:56,116 Speaker 1: for at least, you know, most of the advocates of 270 00:15:56,116 --> 00:16:01,196 Speaker 1: the war. But at some point, just like the North 271 00:16:01,316 --> 00:16:03,796 Speaker 1: in the eighteen seventies got as you said, fatigued or 272 00:16:03,836 --> 00:16:05,996 Speaker 1: tired of the effort, you know, the United States gave 273 00:16:06,076 --> 00:16:09,476 Speaker 1: up on its reconstruction efforts in Iraq and afghan Aniston. 274 00:16:10,156 --> 00:16:12,716 Speaker 1: And now in the United States, to some degree you 275 00:16:12,796 --> 00:16:15,956 Speaker 1: have a rise of anti Muslim sentiment, and in Europe 276 00:16:15,956 --> 00:16:18,116 Speaker 1: you have a lot of increased anti Muslim sentiment. As 277 00:16:18,116 --> 00:16:22,436 Speaker 1: people say, well, those people quote unquote, you know, that's 278 00:16:22,476 --> 00:16:25,756 Speaker 1: just what they're like, quote unquote, we can't fundamentally make 279 00:16:25,756 --> 00:16:29,756 Speaker 1: a change, and then that enables a kind of blame. 280 00:16:30,796 --> 00:16:32,556 Speaker 1: And at least in Europe, the analogy is that you 281 00:16:32,636 --> 00:16:35,476 Speaker 1: have lots of immigrants from the Middle East, a bit 282 00:16:35,596 --> 00:16:40,476 Speaker 1: like African Americans migrating north from the South, and you 283 00:16:40,556 --> 00:16:45,316 Speaker 1: have a big public fight about whether the new immigrants 284 00:16:45,316 --> 00:16:48,676 Speaker 1: can be assimilated into the norms of the society. That's right, 285 00:16:48,676 --> 00:16:51,636 Speaker 1: and who's responsible, I mean, who bears the burden? Becomes 286 00:16:51,676 --> 00:16:54,516 Speaker 1: the kind of question that Europe is answering now around 287 00:16:55,276 --> 00:16:59,036 Speaker 1: refugees and immigration from North Africa and from the Middle East. 288 00:16:59,316 --> 00:17:01,876 Speaker 1: And that was essentially the same question Northerners said. Look, 289 00:17:01,876 --> 00:17:05,836 Speaker 1: we fought a civil war, we supported reconstruction, we pass 290 00:17:05,876 --> 00:17:10,196 Speaker 1: civil rights legislation, and now we have to deal with 291 00:17:10,236 --> 00:17:14,756 Speaker 1: these people who are backwards and uncouth, and who bring 292 00:17:14,876 --> 00:17:20,156 Speaker 1: diseases and inferior education. And the point is that the 293 00:17:20,236 --> 00:17:25,716 Speaker 1: justification for what we would recognize today as Northern racism 294 00:17:26,676 --> 00:17:31,556 Speaker 1: was crime statistics, illiteracy rates, illegitimacy rates, the whole package 295 00:17:31,916 --> 00:17:36,516 Speaker 1: of disparity data that held whiteness as a norm against blackness. 296 00:17:36,556 --> 00:17:39,716 Speaker 1: To say this is not about racism, this is about 297 00:17:39,756 --> 00:17:44,276 Speaker 1: their inferiority and the numbers, that's exactly, or they would 298 00:17:44,276 --> 00:17:47,156 Speaker 1: say the numbers speak for themselves. So you say, a 299 00:17:47,156 --> 00:17:49,276 Speaker 1: fascinating thing in your book about this because you point 300 00:17:49,316 --> 00:17:51,796 Speaker 1: out that exactly the same time that this is happening, 301 00:17:52,436 --> 00:17:59,756 Speaker 1: you have South European, Italian, East European Jewish and Slavic immigrants. 302 00:18:00,676 --> 00:18:03,636 Speaker 1: You had had Irish American immigrants over the previous fifty 303 00:18:03,716 --> 00:18:05,756 Speaker 1: years who were still working out their issues, who we're 304 00:18:05,796 --> 00:18:08,836 Speaker 1: still working out their issues, who still have high crime rates, 305 00:18:09,196 --> 00:18:12,236 Speaker 1: who still are captured by a range of statistical measures. 306 00:18:12,236 --> 00:18:15,316 Speaker 1: The most famous is that Eastern European Jews were ranked 307 00:18:15,316 --> 00:18:17,596 Speaker 1: by the early inventors the IQ test as the lowest 308 00:18:17,876 --> 00:18:19,836 Speaker 1: IQ group and were therefore you know, that was a 309 00:18:19,876 --> 00:18:23,756 Speaker 1: reason to exclude them. And yet you point out there's 310 00:18:23,796 --> 00:18:29,716 Speaker 1: a somehow a difference between how white thought leaders think 311 00:18:29,756 --> 00:18:35,356 Speaker 1: about the crime, the backwardness, the limitations of these new 312 00:18:35,396 --> 00:18:39,396 Speaker 1: immigrants who were not quite white but call them Whiteish 313 00:18:39,436 --> 00:18:43,196 Speaker 1: and African American migrants. Yeah. To me, that's the most 314 00:18:43,396 --> 00:18:45,956 Speaker 1: fascinating finding from this book. I mean, it's the thing 315 00:18:45,956 --> 00:18:48,316 Speaker 1: that surprised me. It's not something I went looking for, 316 00:18:48,516 --> 00:18:51,676 Speaker 1: nor did I expect to see it. It is amazing 317 00:18:51,716 --> 00:18:56,356 Speaker 1: to watch some of the same criminologists, some of the 318 00:18:56,436 --> 00:19:00,636 Speaker 1: same demographers, as you call them, white thought leaders, who 319 00:19:00,676 --> 00:19:05,156 Speaker 1: are looking at Irish, Italian, and New York Jewish crime 320 00:19:05,156 --> 00:19:09,356 Speaker 1: statistics through the roof. By comparison to their native born 321 00:19:09,356 --> 00:19:12,916 Speaker 1: American counterparts, they have disproportionate crime rates across the board 322 00:19:12,956 --> 00:19:17,356 Speaker 1: in many instances. And for one group of Americans prominent 323 00:19:17,396 --> 00:19:21,076 Speaker 1: to be sure, called them eugenicists, called them social darwiness. 324 00:19:21,076 --> 00:19:24,316 Speaker 1: These were people who believe that they were biologically inferior, 325 00:19:24,396 --> 00:19:26,876 Speaker 1: as you've already described, and shouldn't be in the country, 326 00:19:27,036 --> 00:19:29,116 Speaker 1: and we're advocating for closing the borders to it and 327 00:19:29,156 --> 00:19:32,396 Speaker 1: successfully did. Yeah, that happened. That happened in nineteen twenty four. 328 00:19:33,356 --> 00:19:35,836 Speaker 1: But at the same time, for the first time, we 329 00:19:35,876 --> 00:19:42,436 Speaker 1: see this eruption of progressive activists and reformers, people who 330 00:19:42,516 --> 00:19:46,756 Speaker 1: were we would recognize today as modern liberals, who believe 331 00:19:46,876 --> 00:19:50,796 Speaker 1: that government had a role, that antidiscrimination was a core value, 332 00:19:51,316 --> 00:19:54,836 Speaker 1: and they went to great lengths to push back against 333 00:19:54,916 --> 00:19:59,036 Speaker 1: the eugenic tide. And they did it. Here is the irony. 334 00:19:59,116 --> 00:20:02,396 Speaker 1: They did it on the basis of crime statistics. They 335 00:20:02,476 --> 00:20:06,036 Speaker 1: read the crime statistics or interpreted them amongst the Irish, 336 00:20:06,036 --> 00:20:11,836 Speaker 1: the Italians, the polls as evidence ass sdemic economic inequality. 337 00:20:11,876 --> 00:20:15,116 Speaker 1: So let's talk about what that means updated to today. 338 00:20:15,596 --> 00:20:19,076 Speaker 1: You know, here you have these wealth, you know, well 339 00:20:19,116 --> 00:20:22,836 Speaker 1: intentioned people who say, well, you know, these immigrants will 340 00:20:22,876 --> 00:20:25,356 Speaker 1: get over it. But African Americans, on the other hand, 341 00:20:25,356 --> 00:20:27,076 Speaker 1: they're not so convinced we'll get over it. In fact, 342 00:20:27,116 --> 00:20:30,356 Speaker 1: they start to imagine that there's some inherent criminality in 343 00:20:30,396 --> 00:20:34,076 Speaker 1: African American culture, or maybe it's in the experience of 344 00:20:34,116 --> 00:20:37,676 Speaker 1: slavery initially, or you know, they're not using racialized language, 345 00:20:37,676 --> 00:20:40,716 Speaker 1: but they're still saying that it's unsolvable. How do you 346 00:20:40,756 --> 00:20:45,356 Speaker 1: see that played out today in the context of observers 347 00:20:45,396 --> 00:20:50,716 Speaker 1: of ongoing disparities in incarceration rates for Whites and African Americans. Well, 348 00:20:50,716 --> 00:20:53,636 Speaker 1: the most obvious way is that there is no racialized 349 00:20:53,716 --> 00:20:57,116 Speaker 1: language to describe white criminality today. I mean, I can 350 00:20:57,236 --> 00:20:59,836 Speaker 1: use the term as a descriptor, but we have there's 351 00:20:59,836 --> 00:21:02,836 Speaker 1: no conversation about it. The closest thing that we have 352 00:21:02,956 --> 00:21:05,916 Speaker 1: to it is what has been defined as the opioid 353 00:21:06,036 --> 00:21:09,396 Speaker 1: or heroin crisis, and before that the meth crisis, which 354 00:21:09,476 --> 00:21:14,756 Speaker 1: breaking bad made more prominent and famous. But these crises 355 00:21:14,916 --> 00:21:18,876 Speaker 1: among white Americans that include criminality, include violence, and obviously 356 00:21:18,956 --> 00:21:22,796 Speaker 1: include drug addiction, are not understood to be a reflection 357 00:21:22,996 --> 00:21:26,556 Speaker 1: of white people. They're generally understood to be some kind 358 00:21:26,556 --> 00:21:30,876 Speaker 1: of public health crisis, often localized to particular kinds of communities, 359 00:21:31,396 --> 00:21:34,156 Speaker 1: and for the most part, the nation respond to them 360 00:21:34,196 --> 00:21:37,996 Speaker 1: with a sense that we have to do something about this. 361 00:21:38,076 --> 00:21:40,996 Speaker 1: We have to find the origin of the problem in 362 00:21:41,236 --> 00:21:43,956 Speaker 1: the community, in the environment, and something that's happening. So, 363 00:21:43,996 --> 00:21:47,956 Speaker 1: of course big farmers paying a heavy price for prescription 364 00:21:48,036 --> 00:21:51,996 Speaker 1: drug overdoses, but it's treated as an isolated problem though 365 00:21:52,036 --> 00:21:54,156 Speaker 1: blame big Pharma. It's treated and I think of it 366 00:21:54,156 --> 00:21:56,156 Speaker 1: as the battle of the TV shows. It's breaking bad 367 00:21:57,396 --> 00:21:59,836 Speaker 1: show that's almost exactly the same astorical moment the Wire, 368 00:22:00,476 --> 00:22:02,716 Speaker 1: which is just a brilliant show in many many ways, 369 00:22:02,876 --> 00:22:06,956 Speaker 1: but one of its themes is the depressing impossibility. I 370 00:22:06,956 --> 00:22:09,916 Speaker 1: don't think that's an overstatement of reform. The show shows 371 00:22:09,956 --> 00:22:13,036 Speaker 1: people trying to reform, but it keeps on showing a 372 00:22:13,116 --> 00:22:15,276 Speaker 1: series of failures. So it's different, and it's thought of 373 00:22:15,316 --> 00:22:18,436 Speaker 1: as systemic, and there's a kind of okay, not sure 374 00:22:18,436 --> 00:22:21,556 Speaker 1: what to do next theme, And it's also I mean, 375 00:22:21,636 --> 00:22:24,596 Speaker 1: it leads to a number of the kind of productive 376 00:22:24,596 --> 00:22:28,316 Speaker 1: conversations that progressives had a hundred years ago, they begin 377 00:22:28,396 --> 00:22:30,636 Speaker 1: to have these conversations about, well, what's in the water, 378 00:22:31,596 --> 00:22:34,596 Speaker 1: And I mean that metaphorically, so what's in our society 379 00:22:34,596 --> 00:22:38,476 Speaker 1: that produces this level of alienation. One of the same people, 380 00:22:38,476 --> 00:22:40,996 Speaker 1: Fredrick Hoffman, who sort of put in circulation this idea 381 00:22:40,996 --> 00:22:45,836 Speaker 1: of black criminality time to crime stistics, was virtually a socialist. 382 00:22:45,876 --> 00:22:48,876 Speaker 1: I mean, he was certainly in community with other socialists 383 00:22:48,916 --> 00:22:52,436 Speaker 1: who were very clear about if we have high rates 384 00:22:52,436 --> 00:22:56,596 Speaker 1: of crime and suicide and mental illness, then it is 385 00:22:56,636 --> 00:22:59,996 Speaker 1: a reflection of something wrong in our society. But you 386 00:23:00,076 --> 00:23:02,676 Speaker 1: hear those questions today, I mean, as you're saying, we 387 00:23:02,716 --> 00:23:05,276 Speaker 1: don't really hear that about No one says white society 388 00:23:05,396 --> 00:23:10,156 Speaker 1: is broken because of the opioid epidemic. People do say 389 00:23:10,476 --> 00:23:13,396 Speaker 1: African American society is broken in some way because of 390 00:23:13,436 --> 00:23:16,756 Speaker 1: ongoing rates of criminality. What conversation would you prefer to 391 00:23:16,796 --> 00:23:20,476 Speaker 1: have us engage in, Well, the most the easiest way 392 00:23:20,476 --> 00:23:22,156 Speaker 1: to say is we should be having the same public 393 00:23:22,196 --> 00:23:27,116 Speaker 1: health conversation about rates of violence and drugs and property 394 00:23:27,116 --> 00:23:29,556 Speaker 1: related crimes in the black community as we started in 395 00:23:29,556 --> 00:23:32,116 Speaker 1: the progressive era and continue to have in the opioid era. 396 00:23:32,596 --> 00:23:34,956 Speaker 1: In other words, there's a positive lesson there in the 397 00:23:35,036 --> 00:23:36,636 Speaker 1: way they did it better. At one time, they did 398 00:23:36,636 --> 00:23:40,716 Speaker 1: it much better. The other thing is the disparity between 399 00:23:41,316 --> 00:23:45,556 Speaker 1: poverty and crime in rural white America is also a 400 00:23:45,596 --> 00:23:50,756 Speaker 1: disparity of invisibility. There's a disconnect between the fact that 401 00:23:51,276 --> 00:23:56,716 Speaker 1: where poverty over indexes as a cause of crime. So 402 00:23:57,276 --> 00:23:59,036 Speaker 1: if you're poor, you're more likely to be involved in crime, 403 00:23:59,036 --> 00:24:01,716 Speaker 1: no matter what you're rased. That's right, And therefore, if 404 00:24:01,716 --> 00:24:05,716 Speaker 1: it's happening in rural wide America, there's no media markets 405 00:24:05,956 --> 00:24:07,956 Speaker 1: to speak of, and certainly none that show up on 406 00:24:08,036 --> 00:24:12,956 Speaker 1: our television sets. And there is a level of political 407 00:24:12,956 --> 00:24:17,436 Speaker 1: accountability at the local level that has always been broken 408 00:24:17,476 --> 00:24:19,956 Speaker 1: for the black community. So to be very clear, if 409 00:24:20,036 --> 00:24:23,436 Speaker 1: I'm a local sheriff and I'm elected and twenty percent 410 00:24:23,436 --> 00:24:26,156 Speaker 1: of my town is engaging in criminal activity or of 411 00:24:26,156 --> 00:24:28,676 Speaker 1: one form or another, it is not in my political 412 00:24:28,676 --> 00:24:31,036 Speaker 1: interest to lock up everybody. I can, yep, but I 413 00:24:31,036 --> 00:24:33,076 Speaker 1: actually can lock up everybody in the town who's got 414 00:24:33,116 --> 00:24:36,236 Speaker 1: an okioddiction or or is not only was involved in 415 00:24:36,276 --> 00:24:38,636 Speaker 1: producing the stuff, were distributing it, or who is a 416 00:24:38,956 --> 00:24:41,236 Speaker 1: serial robber or burglar. I mean, you know, there's a 417 00:24:41,276 --> 00:24:43,916 Speaker 1: little name it, rename it. But you can do that 418 00:24:44,196 --> 00:24:46,596 Speaker 1: in the black community. Not only can you do it 419 00:24:46,636 --> 00:24:50,196 Speaker 1: in the black community, but you're likely if you're a prosecutor, 420 00:24:50,236 --> 00:24:52,436 Speaker 1: to go on to higher office. If you're a judge, 421 00:24:52,436 --> 00:24:56,916 Speaker 1: you're likely to be promoted at every level of the 422 00:24:56,996 --> 00:25:01,956 Speaker 1: professional incentive structure within criminal justice picking off black people. 423 00:25:02,236 --> 00:25:04,596 Speaker 1: But why is that true even in districts which have 424 00:25:04,676 --> 00:25:08,956 Speaker 1: majority of African American voters. Because what you said is true. Well, 425 00:25:09,276 --> 00:25:12,276 Speaker 1: I mean James Forman Junior, his really interesting book argues 426 00:25:12,316 --> 00:25:16,436 Speaker 1: that some African American community leaders played some role in 427 00:25:16,516 --> 00:25:20,556 Speaker 1: welcoming some of the higher punishments for crime and some 428 00:25:20,596 --> 00:25:24,356 Speaker 1: of the policies now very much criticized policies of the 429 00:25:24,356 --> 00:25:27,116 Speaker 1: eighties and nineties. Yeah, and I wrote a real book. 430 00:25:27,596 --> 00:25:30,956 Speaker 1: The book very well, and I love the argument. So 431 00:25:31,676 --> 00:25:36,156 Speaker 1: there's a fine distinction to be made for some subset 432 00:25:36,356 --> 00:25:39,156 Speaker 1: of law and order black types or black types who 433 00:25:39,196 --> 00:25:42,276 Speaker 1: are law and order advocates for thinking they were actually 434 00:25:42,316 --> 00:25:45,836 Speaker 1: delivering a civil rights justice to black black people, that 435 00:25:45,956 --> 00:25:50,276 Speaker 1: black people deserve police accountability and justice and safety in 436 00:25:50,276 --> 00:25:53,196 Speaker 1: their community just like others. So fortunately the face of 437 00:25:53,236 --> 00:25:55,276 Speaker 1: it is a good argument. Foreman does a great job 438 00:25:55,276 --> 00:25:59,116 Speaker 1: of that. The harder argument that Foreman doesn't extend into 439 00:25:59,196 --> 00:26:01,836 Speaker 1: too much is that black people have imbibed these views 440 00:26:01,836 --> 00:26:06,476 Speaker 1: as well. And the degree to which African Americans imagined 441 00:26:06,596 --> 00:26:09,916 Speaker 1: that punitiveness some subset of them imagine the punitiveness was 442 00:26:09,916 --> 00:26:12,796 Speaker 1: the only natural response to crime in the community, is 443 00:26:12,836 --> 00:26:18,516 Speaker 1: itself a reflection of segregated thought and policymaking, which has 444 00:26:18,556 --> 00:26:22,356 Speaker 1: always had this particular conversation more or less policing, more 445 00:26:22,516 --> 00:26:24,716 Speaker 1: or less prisons. But white people were getting a whole 446 00:26:24,796 --> 00:26:28,276 Speaker 1: different level of options. They were getting very different options 447 00:26:28,316 --> 00:26:30,636 Speaker 1: in their community, and their political leadership could do so. 448 00:26:30,836 --> 00:26:32,796 Speaker 1: The third option I would say to answer your question 449 00:26:32,876 --> 00:26:34,916 Speaker 1: is that no matter how many black people are in 450 00:26:34,996 --> 00:26:37,756 Speaker 1: charge at the municipal level, they're still accountable to some 451 00:26:37,836 --> 00:26:41,076 Speaker 1: kind of white economic or political community. And if they 452 00:26:41,116 --> 00:26:43,556 Speaker 1: have aspirations for moving from being a mayor of a 453 00:26:43,596 --> 00:26:47,076 Speaker 1: community to being a governor or a congressperson, then they're 454 00:26:47,156 --> 00:26:52,236 Speaker 1: even more accountable to thinking about what will the decisions 455 00:26:52,276 --> 00:26:55,716 Speaker 1: I make here now, how will that impact me later? Right, 456 00:26:55,756 --> 00:26:57,836 Speaker 1: Corey Booker is the mayor of Newark. But Corey knew 457 00:26:57,836 --> 00:26:59,196 Speaker 1: perfectly well when he was mayor of new Work that 458 00:26:59,196 --> 00:27:00,436 Speaker 1: was not going to be the last job he held, 459 00:27:00,436 --> 00:27:02,236 Speaker 1: that's right. And Corey Senator and he was going to 460 00:27:02,356 --> 00:27:05,636 Speaker 1: run for president and yeah, And Booker's Police Department under 461 00:27:05,636 --> 00:27:08,876 Speaker 1: Gary McCarthy, who was a former NYPD a senior official 462 00:27:08,916 --> 00:27:11,996 Speaker 1: who went on to Chicago, ended up under a consent 463 00:27:12,076 --> 00:27:18,556 Speaker 1: decree for systemic racial profiling. Fascinating, fascinating and not without 464 00:27:18,596 --> 00:27:21,516 Speaker 1: its troubling side. In fact, Gary McCarthy, just to put 465 00:27:21,516 --> 00:27:24,596 Speaker 1: a finer note on it, who was running Booker's Police department, 466 00:27:25,036 --> 00:27:27,956 Speaker 1: was in charge of Chicago's police department when the Laquam 467 00:27:28,036 --> 00:27:31,916 Speaker 1: McDonald cover up took place and lost his job over it. 468 00:27:32,436 --> 00:27:35,236 Speaker 1: So there's just, in a nutshell, an example where black 469 00:27:35,236 --> 00:27:39,636 Speaker 1: political leadership has not been sufficient to addressing these problems 470 00:27:39,716 --> 00:27:42,476 Speaker 1: in terms of a social response or a collective response. 471 00:27:42,596 --> 00:27:45,356 Speaker 1: You can also see, in relation to an NYPD origin 472 00:27:45,396 --> 00:27:48,676 Speaker 1: that you mentioned there, that the modern version of the 473 00:27:48,716 --> 00:27:52,756 Speaker 1: statistical argument is the so called comstat model, the idea 474 00:27:52,756 --> 00:27:56,036 Speaker 1: according to which statistics are the magic, the special sauce 475 00:27:56,316 --> 00:27:59,636 Speaker 1: they will enable police to handle urban crime by flooding 476 00:27:59,636 --> 00:28:02,516 Speaker 1: the zone in areas where there's been crime. The core 477 00:28:02,636 --> 00:28:06,716 Speaker 1: criticism there is that it drives a structure of racial profiling, 478 00:28:06,996 --> 00:28:11,316 Speaker 1: which vastly increases arrests of African Americans, especially of young man. 479 00:28:11,596 --> 00:28:15,436 Speaker 1: Your book actually has a kind of prehistory, the origin 480 00:28:15,516 --> 00:28:17,676 Speaker 1: story of racial profiling itself. You want to tell us 481 00:28:17,676 --> 00:28:19,996 Speaker 1: about that, Yeah, so. So. One of the ways in 482 00:28:20,036 --> 00:28:23,076 Speaker 1: which the evolution of this early statistical discourse, starting with 483 00:28:23,076 --> 00:28:28,236 Speaker 1: the census metastasizes in the North is that everyone begins 484 00:28:28,316 --> 00:28:34,436 Speaker 1: to bake in racial crime statistics into their reporting, their 485 00:28:34,636 --> 00:28:37,796 Speaker 1: municipal reporting, for example, and what we begin to see 486 00:28:37,836 --> 00:28:40,836 Speaker 1: as a collapsing everything comes from somewhere. We think cops 487 00:28:40,836 --> 00:28:43,996 Speaker 1: are always using the statistics that actually that was born somewhere. Yeah. Yeah, 488 00:28:44,036 --> 00:28:46,436 Speaker 1: So what we saw, for example, when there were a 489 00:28:46,476 --> 00:28:49,476 Speaker 1: lot of Europeans and their future was still under indetermined. 490 00:28:50,556 --> 00:28:52,956 Speaker 1: European immigrants, you could pull out a police and your 491 00:28:52,956 --> 00:28:57,756 Speaker 1: report and see arrest categories robbery, battery, assault, and it 492 00:28:57,836 --> 00:29:01,996 Speaker 1: would say Russian, Scandinavian, German, Italian, sold and so forth. 493 00:29:02,036 --> 00:29:04,476 Speaker 1: It looked like an Excel spreadsheet, you know, in print. 494 00:29:05,116 --> 00:29:09,276 Speaker 1: By the nineteen thirties, most local statistics were reduced to 495 00:29:09,316 --> 00:29:15,276 Speaker 1: white black other and the federal government reduced them to white, black, Indian, Mexican, Japanese, other. 496 00:29:15,956 --> 00:29:19,956 Speaker 1: So essentially, blackness became kind of the most dominant signifier 497 00:29:19,996 --> 00:29:22,356 Speaker 1: of deviation from a norm, which was a white norm. 498 00:29:22,516 --> 00:29:25,076 Speaker 1: Didn't really matter what white people were doing, And in 499 00:29:25,116 --> 00:29:29,796 Speaker 1: that sense, the agencies of law began to focus explicitly, 500 00:29:30,036 --> 00:29:32,836 Speaker 1: both because the statistics told them to do so, but 501 00:29:32,996 --> 00:29:36,356 Speaker 1: also because they were controlling white spaces in the way 502 00:29:36,396 --> 00:29:39,756 Speaker 1: that we've had a conversation more recently about hashtag living 503 00:29:39,756 --> 00:29:43,636 Speaker 1: while Black. So they were helping on the front lines 504 00:29:43,716 --> 00:29:47,596 Speaker 1: of a kind of surveillance of black communities, ensuring that 505 00:29:47,636 --> 00:29:50,596 Speaker 1: black people would not move into white neighborhoods if there 506 00:29:50,636 --> 00:29:54,596 Speaker 1: were competition over jobs or business ownership. The police were 507 00:29:54,636 --> 00:29:57,836 Speaker 1: often enforcers, and there was tremendous corruption to boot with 508 00:29:57,876 --> 00:30:01,596 Speaker 1: all of this, and that early story which shows up 509 00:30:01,636 --> 00:30:05,196 Speaker 1: in letters to the NAACP complaining about systemic harassment by 510 00:30:05,236 --> 00:30:07,996 Speaker 1: white police officers or observing it on the street, It 511 00:30:08,076 --> 00:30:10,756 Speaker 1: shows up in the first Blue Ribbon Commission, which grew 512 00:30:10,756 --> 00:30:13,196 Speaker 1: out of a race ride in Chicago in nineteen ninety. 513 00:30:13,516 --> 00:30:17,676 Speaker 1: The commission found evidence that there was systemic racial profiling, 514 00:30:18,076 --> 00:30:21,356 Speaker 1: quoted criminal justice officials, all of whom were white, saying, yes, 515 00:30:21,436 --> 00:30:23,876 Speaker 1: it is true if we see a black suspect, we 516 00:30:23,876 --> 00:30:25,516 Speaker 1: will stop and arrest them. If we see a white 517 00:30:25,516 --> 00:30:27,356 Speaker 1: one will just keep an eye on them to see 518 00:30:27,356 --> 00:30:30,036 Speaker 1: if they do something in the future. The results of 519 00:30:30,076 --> 00:30:36,196 Speaker 1: this incredible commission led the authors to say racial crime 520 00:30:36,236 --> 00:30:39,956 Speaker 1: statistics are unreliable and should not be used because they 521 00:30:39,996 --> 00:30:43,356 Speaker 1: do more harm than good. They confuse. So we've been 522 00:30:43,396 --> 00:30:45,076 Speaker 1: down this road. We've been down this road before, and 523 00:30:45,076 --> 00:30:47,316 Speaker 1: there's a kind of sixthical thing. So that actually leads 524 00:30:47,316 --> 00:30:49,676 Speaker 1: me to a question about what should we do about 525 00:30:49,716 --> 00:30:53,556 Speaker 1: this problem. One of the responses that you hear a 526 00:30:53,556 --> 00:30:56,396 Speaker 1: lot today is we need fundamental change, and that comes 527 00:30:56,396 --> 00:30:58,756 Speaker 1: in a moderate form and in a more radical form, 528 00:30:58,796 --> 00:31:02,036 Speaker 1: so to me. An example of the more moderate form 529 00:31:02,196 --> 00:31:04,436 Speaker 1: is a new initiative which has gone a lot of publicity, 530 00:31:04,516 --> 00:31:09,996 Speaker 1: mostly because of Jay Z's involvement in it, to limit 531 00:31:10,156 --> 00:31:14,436 Speaker 1: or maybe do away with supervised forms of release, probation 532 00:31:14,556 --> 00:31:17,636 Speaker 1: or parole that have the effect of putting formerly in 533 00:31:17,676 --> 00:31:19,356 Speaker 1: prison people are in some cases people who didn't go 534 00:31:19,356 --> 00:31:22,116 Speaker 1: to prison at all under kind of constant states surveillance, 535 00:31:22,116 --> 00:31:24,476 Speaker 1: with the risk that if they violate the terms of 536 00:31:24,516 --> 00:31:28,036 Speaker 1: their supervised release, boom, they can go right back to prison. 537 00:31:28,476 --> 00:31:31,756 Speaker 1: The more radical form, which from the moment is still 538 00:31:31,796 --> 00:31:35,076 Speaker 1: heard mostly among activists and on university campuses, is the 539 00:31:35,156 --> 00:31:38,996 Speaker 1: call for genuine abolition, where abolition is the abolition of 540 00:31:39,116 --> 00:31:43,636 Speaker 1: prison altogether. So maybe let's take those in turn. What 541 00:31:43,676 --> 00:31:48,076 Speaker 1: do you think about the let's change supervised release what 542 00:31:48,116 --> 00:31:52,156 Speaker 1: I'm calling the moderate version of big scale reform. Yeah, 543 00:31:52,196 --> 00:31:57,596 Speaker 1: so I'm all for it. I mean, there's no legitimate 544 00:31:57,636 --> 00:32:02,196 Speaker 1: basis to critique that suggestion for the most part, because 545 00:32:02,516 --> 00:32:05,996 Speaker 1: in some states, the vast majority of new admits are 546 00:32:06,156 --> 00:32:09,876 Speaker 1: supervised released of recommitments. So people who are caught for 547 00:32:09,916 --> 00:32:13,276 Speaker 1: technical violations of parole improbation are the vast majority people 548 00:32:13,276 --> 00:32:15,196 Speaker 1: who are then readmitted to prison or admitted to prison 549 00:32:15,276 --> 00:32:17,756 Speaker 1: at all. In some states it is actually the majority 550 00:32:17,756 --> 00:32:21,076 Speaker 1: of new emits because because the system has been churning 551 00:32:21,076 --> 00:32:24,436 Speaker 1: for so long, there's a vast population. There's something like 552 00:32:24,476 --> 00:32:26,916 Speaker 1: seven million people in our country who are under some 553 00:32:26,996 --> 00:32:29,676 Speaker 1: form of criminal justice supervision has compared to only two 554 00:32:29,676 --> 00:32:31,716 Speaker 1: point two million one point four million are in prison 555 00:32:31,756 --> 00:32:36,356 Speaker 1: the rest and only right only. So so yes, that's 556 00:32:36,756 --> 00:32:40,116 Speaker 1: for some states that would be a huge reduction in 557 00:32:40,316 --> 00:32:42,156 Speaker 1: new admits to say, you know what, they serve their 558 00:32:42,156 --> 00:32:44,876 Speaker 1: time they've been released, they're done. They can't. And the 559 00:32:44,876 --> 00:32:47,356 Speaker 1: most obvious reasons for this is because the reasons to 560 00:32:47,436 --> 00:32:51,196 Speaker 1: trip people up are very much baked into the social 561 00:32:51,276 --> 00:32:54,356 Speaker 1: hierarchies that exist in our community. Which is to say 562 00:32:54,356 --> 00:32:57,116 Speaker 1: that people who are already overly surveiled because they live 563 00:32:57,156 --> 00:32:59,996 Speaker 1: more public lives in urban cities are much more likely 564 00:33:00,036 --> 00:33:03,716 Speaker 1: to get caught having a brusque in a brown paper 565 00:33:03,756 --> 00:33:05,596 Speaker 1: bag because they don't have a nice living room to 566 00:33:05,596 --> 00:33:07,996 Speaker 1: have it right, or even a joint. I mean, the 567 00:33:08,036 --> 00:33:10,316 Speaker 1: God forbid that we still think that somehow, you know, 568 00:33:10,476 --> 00:33:13,916 Speaker 1: you can question someone's moral fitness because they had a joint. 569 00:33:14,276 --> 00:33:18,116 Speaker 1: But yet prosecutors and probation officers will still say, you know, 570 00:33:18,236 --> 00:33:20,436 Speaker 1: this is what Rick Scott, as governor Florida, was still 571 00:33:20,476 --> 00:33:22,556 Speaker 1: doing when he was just a year ago, saying, you know, 572 00:33:22,756 --> 00:33:24,436 Speaker 1: you had that joint, you shouldn't have done it. You 573 00:33:24,436 --> 00:33:27,716 Speaker 1: don't get your right to vote. So what about you said, 574 00:33:27,716 --> 00:33:29,876 Speaker 1: there isn't really a rational counterargument in the way you 575 00:33:29,956 --> 00:33:32,756 Speaker 1: just presented it. You've convinced me. But my question is, 576 00:33:32,756 --> 00:33:35,236 Speaker 1: isn't there at least a possibility that if supervised forms 577 00:33:35,236 --> 00:33:37,596 Speaker 1: of release were eliminated that there would be a public 578 00:33:37,716 --> 00:33:40,516 Speaker 1: push for longer sentencing. I mean, isn't it the case 579 00:33:40,516 --> 00:33:42,276 Speaker 1: that lots of people that are on supervised release would 580 00:33:42,316 --> 00:33:47,036 Speaker 1: otherwise be incarcerated. Well, I think that we have to 581 00:33:47,076 --> 00:33:54,076 Speaker 1: separate out what reformers and scholars are saying about the 582 00:33:54,116 --> 00:34:01,156 Speaker 1: mechanics of decarceration from the popular appetite for retributive justice. Yep. 583 00:34:01,636 --> 00:34:04,396 Speaker 1: And that's a big problem, and that is not addressed 584 00:34:04,476 --> 00:34:08,076 Speaker 1: by supervised released, right, the mechanics of a legislative fix 585 00:34:08,156 --> 00:34:10,916 Speaker 1: that said, this is one way to get as significant reductions. 586 00:34:11,196 --> 00:34:13,476 Speaker 1: And the other problem is, well, what happens if one 587 00:34:13,476 --> 00:34:15,596 Speaker 1: of those people who would have been on supervisor released 588 00:34:15,836 --> 00:34:18,596 Speaker 1: does something terrible and the public says, lock them up. 589 00:34:18,676 --> 00:34:20,516 Speaker 1: But it's sort of it's sort of dealt with in 590 00:34:20,556 --> 00:34:23,156 Speaker 1: the following sense, in the sense that it's an escape valve. 591 00:34:23,596 --> 00:34:26,516 Speaker 1: So you have people who are in the system, you know, 592 00:34:26,636 --> 00:34:31,876 Speaker 1: prosecutors and police officials and prison officials who know that 593 00:34:31,916 --> 00:34:35,556 Speaker 1: there's just too many people in the system, and then 594 00:34:35,596 --> 00:34:37,516 Speaker 1: you have a public saying lock them up, lock them up. 595 00:34:37,796 --> 00:34:40,796 Speaker 1: So then there's a kind of secret pact among the 596 00:34:40,836 --> 00:34:42,996 Speaker 1: people who run for elected office saying, well, we're locking 597 00:34:43,036 --> 00:34:45,276 Speaker 1: them up, We're giving people log sentences, but then in 598 00:34:45,316 --> 00:34:47,756 Speaker 1: fact they are being released to be a supervised release. 599 00:34:48,316 --> 00:34:50,476 Speaker 1: Take away the supervised release you're taking away. I mean, 600 00:34:50,516 --> 00:34:53,116 Speaker 1: it's not a very attractive method of dealing with their problem. 601 00:34:53,156 --> 00:34:56,396 Speaker 1: But isn't it, in some structural sense a way that 602 00:34:56,476 --> 00:34:59,796 Speaker 1: elected officials have tried to reduce the effects of the 603 00:34:59,836 --> 00:35:04,676 Speaker 1: public's long run, you know, apparently insatiable desire to have 604 00:35:04,756 --> 00:35:08,116 Speaker 1: at least a symbol of strong crime response. Well, I 605 00:35:08,356 --> 00:35:10,756 Speaker 1: think we should harst the public a little bit more so. 606 00:35:10,836 --> 00:35:14,156 Speaker 1: There are some publics who genuinely think that we've gone 607 00:35:14,196 --> 00:35:17,356 Speaker 1: way overboard with sentencing period and have been advocating for 608 00:35:17,476 --> 00:35:21,036 Speaker 1: and calling for rejection of all kinds of mandatory minimals, 609 00:35:21,036 --> 00:35:22,956 Speaker 1: particularly at the state level, which we're not addressed by 610 00:35:22,956 --> 00:35:25,796 Speaker 1: the first step back. I think the other aspect of this, 611 00:35:25,956 --> 00:35:29,836 Speaker 1: when it comes to thinking about various forms of supervisor release, 612 00:35:29,916 --> 00:35:33,756 Speaker 1: people are calling for alternatives to incarceration, which might include 613 00:35:33,756 --> 00:35:38,436 Speaker 1: electronic monitoring. So that's not even about release at the 614 00:35:38,476 --> 00:35:41,716 Speaker 1: point of the shortening of a sentence. That is actually 615 00:35:41,716 --> 00:35:45,276 Speaker 1: a disposition that the person never goes instead of and 616 00:35:45,716 --> 00:35:48,516 Speaker 1: a lot of us and I would express concern here too, 617 00:35:48,676 --> 00:35:53,156 Speaker 1: is we may be trading on one form of a 618 00:35:53,276 --> 00:35:56,436 Speaker 1: punitive system for another, because now it's like, oh well, 619 00:35:56,476 --> 00:35:58,236 Speaker 1: we don't even have to spend money on these people. 620 00:35:58,276 --> 00:36:02,476 Speaker 1: We'll just have a wrinkle bracelet on everybody, even people 621 00:36:02,476 --> 00:36:06,116 Speaker 1: who through plea bargaining, we just figure so we have 622 00:36:06,516 --> 00:36:08,956 Speaker 1: one way to answer. This is what jay Z and 623 00:36:09,116 --> 00:36:12,596 Speaker 1: others are calling for. Are not addressing the cultural roots. 624 00:36:12,796 --> 00:36:15,396 Speaker 1: I don't addrest. It's a it's a it's a band aid, 625 00:36:15,436 --> 00:36:18,516 Speaker 1: it's a fix. So what about them the people who 626 00:36:18,556 --> 00:36:21,076 Speaker 1: claim and La Davis most famously, but lots of other 627 00:36:21,076 --> 00:36:23,596 Speaker 1: people are on board for something it's not a band aid, 628 00:36:24,116 --> 00:36:27,916 Speaker 1: namely abolition of prisons altogether. To me, this is an 629 00:36:27,916 --> 00:36:31,836 Speaker 1: issue that hasn't yet fully penetrated. Certainly, it's it's making 630 00:36:31,836 --> 00:36:33,916 Speaker 1: inroads in the African American public. I don't think it's 631 00:36:33,916 --> 00:36:38,076 Speaker 1: penetrated the average white person's consciousness yet, except on campuses. 632 00:36:39,196 --> 00:36:40,876 Speaker 1: What's your what's your view on it? When I first 633 00:36:40,916 --> 00:36:42,196 Speaker 1: heard about it, you know a few years ago, I 634 00:36:42,236 --> 00:36:45,396 Speaker 1: thought to myself, this is utopianism. Now I'm not so sure. Well, 635 00:36:45,396 --> 00:36:47,476 Speaker 1: this is where the two things we just talked about 636 00:36:47,516 --> 00:36:50,436 Speaker 1: may intersect in an odd way. So I would agree 637 00:36:50,436 --> 00:36:54,556 Speaker 1: with you that African Americans are may over index, you know, 638 00:36:54,676 --> 00:36:57,836 Speaker 1: just in terms of the activist community. But I would 639 00:36:57,876 --> 00:37:00,756 Speaker 1: not I would not suggest, going back to Foreman's work 640 00:37:00,796 --> 00:37:03,996 Speaker 1: and the you know, deeper roots of how black people 641 00:37:03,996 --> 00:37:07,236 Speaker 1: have understood punitiveness as a civil rights project itself, say 642 00:37:07,276 --> 00:37:10,676 Speaker 1: that they're all all on board either, but especially in 643 00:37:10,716 --> 00:37:14,796 Speaker 1: communities that feel their closest to the kind of gun 644 00:37:14,916 --> 00:37:17,676 Speaker 1: violence that does happen. I didn't mean to suggest that. 645 00:37:17,676 --> 00:37:20,076 Speaker 1: I just meant that if you pull the average African 646 00:37:20,076 --> 00:37:22,116 Speaker 1: American and maybe the people ever heard of the idea 647 00:37:22,116 --> 00:37:24,036 Speaker 1: of abolition, not that they're on board with it, but 648 00:37:24,076 --> 00:37:25,516 Speaker 1: they might have at least heard of it. I think 649 00:37:25,516 --> 00:37:28,716 Speaker 1: I'm waitfuless not even so clear that's true. I'll take 650 00:37:28,756 --> 00:37:31,956 Speaker 1: that one, and I think that it begs the larger 651 00:37:32,076 --> 00:37:35,516 Speaker 1: question of how radical are our imaginations? Because to me, 652 00:37:35,596 --> 00:37:37,796 Speaker 1: the most generative aspect, well, how radical should they be? 653 00:37:37,876 --> 00:37:39,716 Speaker 1: I mean, press they should, they should be. They should 654 00:37:39,716 --> 00:37:42,636 Speaker 1: be as radical as ending prison because the first prison 655 00:37:42,676 --> 00:37:48,156 Speaker 1: that was built in Philadelphia, in Eastern State Penitentiary at 656 00:37:48,156 --> 00:37:51,396 Speaker 1: the top of the nineteenth century, failed and it failed 657 00:37:51,396 --> 00:37:53,236 Speaker 1: by the standards of the people who built it, and 658 00:37:53,396 --> 00:37:55,796 Speaker 1: they wanted to rehabilitate people and they couldn't. Well, it 659 00:37:55,796 --> 00:37:58,036 Speaker 1: wasn't even that they wanted to rehabilitate people and they couldn't. 660 00:37:58,156 --> 00:38:00,476 Speaker 1: It wasn't about a recidivism problem. It was about a 661 00:38:00,476 --> 00:38:04,516 Speaker 1: brutality problem that people who genuinely thought that a prison 662 00:38:04,516 --> 00:38:07,236 Speaker 1: could be a place for penitence in isolation, so that 663 00:38:07,236 --> 00:38:10,436 Speaker 1: a person could be reborn, were object to systemic abuse 664 00:38:10,516 --> 00:38:13,916 Speaker 1: by the people by their jailers, and the very construction 665 00:38:13,956 --> 00:38:15,836 Speaker 1: of the prison, while they thought it was going to 666 00:38:15,876 --> 00:38:18,396 Speaker 1: bring people closure to God, turned out to produce insanity. 667 00:38:18,996 --> 00:38:21,356 Speaker 1: We've never solved that problem, and in fact, in the 668 00:38:21,356 --> 00:38:24,836 Speaker 1: twentieth century we doubled down on solitary confinement because we 669 00:38:24,916 --> 00:38:27,476 Speaker 1: believed it was the best, the best way to manage 670 00:38:27,836 --> 00:38:30,676 Speaker 1: the prison population, which grew and grew and grew, and 671 00:38:30,716 --> 00:38:33,236 Speaker 1: there wasn't enough room to do this. So we've failed 672 00:38:33,516 --> 00:38:36,796 Speaker 1: by every generation, by every standard that the people who 673 00:38:36,796 --> 00:38:40,316 Speaker 1: were innovating thought was the best next best thing to 674 00:38:40,356 --> 00:38:43,316 Speaker 1: do to meet our own goals and expectations. So this 675 00:38:43,356 --> 00:38:45,756 Speaker 1: may be an example of where going deep into the 676 00:38:45,836 --> 00:38:47,916 Speaker 1: history can actually change your perspective on it. I mean, 677 00:38:47,916 --> 00:38:50,916 Speaker 1: if you think that prisons all you've ever had. Then 678 00:38:50,956 --> 00:38:52,796 Speaker 1: you think, well, we're stuck with it. But in fact, 679 00:38:52,796 --> 00:38:56,796 Speaker 1: there were other mechanisms of addressing crime before prisons, and 680 00:38:56,876 --> 00:38:59,436 Speaker 1: prisons were invented at a certain moment, and when those 681 00:38:59,436 --> 00:39:01,116 Speaker 1: other methods were thought out to work, they got rid 682 00:39:01,156 --> 00:39:03,436 Speaker 1: of those, And maybe it's now time to think about 683 00:39:03,476 --> 00:39:06,356 Speaker 1: getting rid of prisons. So then the obvious next question 684 00:39:06,476 --> 00:39:09,116 Speaker 1: is what are those alternatives? I mean, the options from 685 00:39:09,196 --> 00:39:12,916 Speaker 1: before now seem to us unimaginably brutal, sort of in 686 00:39:12,956 --> 00:39:14,996 Speaker 1: the way that maybe in the future people will think 687 00:39:14,996 --> 00:39:17,676 Speaker 1: of prison as having been just inherently not just the 688 00:39:17,676 --> 00:39:21,676 Speaker 1: conditions that currently exist, but inherently fundamentally brutal. But you know, 689 00:39:21,716 --> 00:39:24,036 Speaker 1: we're not going to go back to chopping off people's hands. 690 00:39:24,076 --> 00:39:26,276 Speaker 1: And you know, we don't believe in transport. Maybe we 691 00:39:26,316 --> 00:39:28,556 Speaker 1: would transport people to Australia if we could, but we 692 00:39:28,596 --> 00:39:32,676 Speaker 1: don't have so many places that are obvious sources or locations. 693 00:39:32,956 --> 00:39:36,076 Speaker 1: So what are the kinds of options that are credible today? Yeah, 694 00:39:36,516 --> 00:39:38,876 Speaker 1: so I'm going to shout out a colleague of mine's work. 695 00:39:38,996 --> 00:39:41,596 Speaker 1: Her name is Daniel Serich. He runs an organization in 696 00:39:41,956 --> 00:39:45,156 Speaker 1: Brooklyn called Common Justice, and she's written a book called 697 00:39:45,236 --> 00:39:48,836 Speaker 1: Until We Reckon, And the most important point of this 698 00:39:48,876 --> 00:39:55,116 Speaker 1: book is that if we think about the problem of 699 00:39:55,156 --> 00:40:02,796 Speaker 1: harm and violence, especially as a recipe for shame and accountability, 700 00:40:02,876 --> 00:40:05,916 Speaker 1: in other words, that people who have done something terrible 701 00:40:05,956 --> 00:40:08,836 Speaker 1: to someone feel shame, and people who have been victimized 702 00:40:08,876 --> 00:40:12,756 Speaker 1: by violence often feel shame, and that prison itself is 703 00:40:12,796 --> 00:40:18,236 Speaker 1: a shame factory. So prison's not working if if we could, well, 704 00:40:18,396 --> 00:40:21,396 Speaker 1: why because it's made for shame. I buy that interpretation 705 00:40:21,396 --> 00:40:23,636 Speaker 1: of it right on. A theory that shame will work 706 00:40:23,756 --> 00:40:26,036 Speaker 1: is the argument that it's shaming but failing to work. 707 00:40:26,916 --> 00:40:30,836 Speaker 1: It's shaming and producing violence and makes more violence. It 708 00:40:30,876 --> 00:40:33,636 Speaker 1: makes more violence, and that people who are exposed to violence, 709 00:40:33,676 --> 00:40:36,876 Speaker 1: according to epidemiologists, are more likely to convince by So 710 00:40:36,916 --> 00:40:39,396 Speaker 1: the very thing that we use as punishment is a 711 00:40:39,476 --> 00:40:42,796 Speaker 1: violence producer. And so her work is the first and 712 00:40:42,876 --> 00:40:48,276 Speaker 1: most significant effort for an alternative to violent offenders. So 713 00:40:48,796 --> 00:40:52,836 Speaker 1: one one line of defensive response this would be to say, well, 714 00:40:52,876 --> 00:40:55,436 Speaker 1: that's true, prison doesn't fix people, and in fact, it 715 00:40:55,476 --> 00:40:58,556 Speaker 1: does make people worse off. But you know, the last 716 00:40:58,596 --> 00:41:01,756 Speaker 1: fallback of a scoundrel who's got no alternative institutional option 717 00:41:02,276 --> 00:41:03,756 Speaker 1: is to say well, at least people who are in 718 00:41:03,796 --> 00:41:06,716 Speaker 1: prison aren't commending violence on people outside of the prison. 719 00:41:06,956 --> 00:41:10,396 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a kind of sad last defense, but 720 00:41:10,476 --> 00:41:12,476 Speaker 1: it is out there as a possible defense, and maybe 721 00:41:12,476 --> 00:41:15,036 Speaker 1: it's even heard among people who live in communities that 722 00:41:15,036 --> 00:41:18,036 Speaker 1: are most likely to be affected by violent offenders. So 723 00:41:18,156 --> 00:41:20,956 Speaker 1: then think of it this way. So while the single 724 00:41:21,036 --> 00:41:26,396 Speaker 1: individual who is being incarcerated for violence may be incapacitated 725 00:41:26,436 --> 00:41:30,276 Speaker 1: by the experience of incarceration, that individual can't hurt anybody 726 00:41:30,316 --> 00:41:33,476 Speaker 1: outside of prisoners, right, is touching someone who's coming home tomorrow. 727 00:41:33,956 --> 00:41:35,796 Speaker 1: In some way, shape or form. They share the same 728 00:41:35,836 --> 00:41:39,076 Speaker 1: social ecology, So you may not as that are breeding 729 00:41:39,076 --> 00:41:41,556 Speaker 1: ground for more violence, right for the person who now 730 00:41:41,596 --> 00:41:43,836 Speaker 1: has been exposed to you, who are not being treated 731 00:41:43,876 --> 00:41:47,516 Speaker 1: for your violence, who have no mechanism to actually seek 732 00:41:47,556 --> 00:41:50,956 Speaker 1: forgiveness or redemption through the means of being in community 733 00:41:50,996 --> 00:41:52,796 Speaker 1: with the person who you did harm to. The other 734 00:41:52,876 --> 00:41:55,476 Speaker 1: point that she makes is that individuals who have been 735 00:41:55,516 --> 00:41:59,396 Speaker 1: harmed are now subject themselves to committing violence, and they 736 00:41:59,396 --> 00:42:04,716 Speaker 1: don't get the opportunity for accountability from the wrongdoer that 737 00:42:04,796 --> 00:42:08,076 Speaker 1: they need. So it becomes a vicious cycle where the 738 00:42:08,116 --> 00:42:11,916 Speaker 1: people who have been armed, are more likely later on 739 00:42:11,956 --> 00:42:16,036 Speaker 1: to become violence perpetrators, and the violence perpetrators are in 740 00:42:16,036 --> 00:42:18,836 Speaker 1: an institution that produces violence and sends people home back 741 00:42:18,876 --> 00:42:23,316 Speaker 1: every day. Now, I am not one to both use 742 00:42:23,476 --> 00:42:27,676 Speaker 1: kind of the language of damage imagery to reinforce these 743 00:42:27,676 --> 00:42:29,356 Speaker 1: notions where I don't want to live anywhere near these 744 00:42:29,356 --> 00:42:30,996 Speaker 1: people because they sound like they've got a lot of issues, 745 00:42:31,036 --> 00:42:33,116 Speaker 1: and you also use them. You also use the metaphor 746 00:42:33,116 --> 00:42:38,276 Speaker 1: of epidemiology, that's right, or the discipline of epidemiology, which 747 00:42:38,316 --> 00:42:41,356 Speaker 1: is of course comes from infectious diseases. That's the word epidemics. 748 00:42:41,716 --> 00:42:44,236 Speaker 1: That's also a that's a I mean fraud nothing. I mean, 749 00:42:44,276 --> 00:42:47,796 Speaker 1: that's a terrifying and I think worrisome image to use. 750 00:42:47,836 --> 00:42:50,316 Speaker 1: It implies that criminality is catching in some way, which 751 00:42:50,556 --> 00:42:52,476 Speaker 1: might be our own up to date version of the 752 00:42:52,516 --> 00:42:55,756 Speaker 1: old idea that there's something inherent in people's qualities. So 753 00:42:55,836 --> 00:42:58,116 Speaker 1: one way we have to wrestle with this, and this 754 00:42:58,196 --> 00:43:00,556 Speaker 1: is a conundrum that I haven't solved yet. Just in 755 00:43:00,596 --> 00:43:04,116 Speaker 1: describing these mechanisms is what we keep coming back to 756 00:43:04,396 --> 00:43:08,356 Speaker 1: is prison is not helping. And so one way that 757 00:43:08,476 --> 00:43:11,156 Speaker 1: she just this work and is proving the work in 758 00:43:11,196 --> 00:43:13,876 Speaker 1: the work that she does daily is people are being 759 00:43:13,916 --> 00:43:18,116 Speaker 1: remanded to her care, and that includes people who have 760 00:43:18,156 --> 00:43:21,316 Speaker 1: committed violence. And just so your listeners know, the vast 761 00:43:21,356 --> 00:43:24,116 Speaker 1: majority of people in prison are not murderers. Fifty four 762 00:43:24,156 --> 00:43:27,156 Speaker 1: percent are convicted for what is considered a violent crime, 763 00:43:27,196 --> 00:43:30,836 Speaker 1: which is robbery. And so this is not necessarily about 764 00:43:30,836 --> 00:43:34,356 Speaker 1: people who just are schizophrenic or psychopaths who just go 765 00:43:34,396 --> 00:43:37,276 Speaker 1: out and kill people. This is often related to their poverty. 766 00:43:37,636 --> 00:43:40,676 Speaker 1: So to solve this problem for her and the work 767 00:43:40,716 --> 00:43:43,796 Speaker 1: that she does means that outside of the prison system, 768 00:43:43,836 --> 00:43:46,596 Speaker 1: we can actually achieve two things. We can help people 769 00:43:46,596 --> 00:43:50,036 Speaker 1: who have done harm find their voice of accountability which 770 00:43:50,076 --> 00:43:53,476 Speaker 1: makes them feel better, and the victim of it can 771 00:43:53,516 --> 00:43:55,716 Speaker 1: feel better so that they can move on with their 772 00:43:55,716 --> 00:43:59,436 Speaker 1: lives as well. So there you break that cycle. There's 773 00:43:59,436 --> 00:44:03,236 Speaker 1: something scary, though, to me, at least underneath that description, 774 00:44:03,276 --> 00:44:06,356 Speaker 1: because you made what I think is an incontrovertible point 775 00:44:06,396 --> 00:44:07,916 Speaker 1: that if there is a root cause that we can 776 00:44:07,956 --> 00:44:11,556 Speaker 1: identify and associate with crime, it's poverty. That implies that 777 00:44:11,716 --> 00:44:14,596 Speaker 1: unless something can be fundamentally done about the structure of 778 00:44:14,596 --> 00:44:16,876 Speaker 1: poverty in the United States, and particularly the racialized structure 779 00:44:16,876 --> 00:44:20,476 Speaker 1: of poverty, there won't be a solution to the problem 780 00:44:20,556 --> 00:44:24,036 Speaker 1: of crime. Most broadly, is that a fair interpretation of 781 00:44:24,036 --> 00:44:26,036 Speaker 1: what you just said? Oh? Absolutely, so, you know, don't 782 00:44:26,076 --> 00:44:28,276 Speaker 1: get me started on the root causes argument that have 783 00:44:28,436 --> 00:44:32,436 Speaker 1: mostly been dismissed as you know, too hard in this country, 784 00:44:32,516 --> 00:44:35,556 Speaker 1: and we need to reclaim and I think having conversations 785 00:44:35,556 --> 00:44:38,076 Speaker 1: about new deals, whether they're green or otherwise, you know, 786 00:44:38,196 --> 00:44:40,596 Speaker 1: is a step in the right direction. But I also 787 00:44:40,636 --> 00:44:43,236 Speaker 1: want to be clear that we also know what decarcerated 788 00:44:43,236 --> 00:44:45,876 Speaker 1: communities look like. They can look around and see them. 789 00:44:45,916 --> 00:44:48,876 Speaker 1: They look like those rural communities that we've already talked about, 790 00:44:48,916 --> 00:44:51,436 Speaker 1: and they look like affluent suburbs. And if we put 791 00:44:51,716 --> 00:44:54,076 Speaker 1: this sounds like oh there he goes again, like if 792 00:44:54,116 --> 00:44:56,796 Speaker 1: you put a police officer on every corner of a 793 00:44:56,836 --> 00:44:59,116 Speaker 1: college campus, you know, the place would be, you know, 794 00:44:59,196 --> 00:45:02,516 Speaker 1: full of X felans. Well, we might be dismissive of 795 00:45:02,556 --> 00:45:05,356 Speaker 1: the thought of that, but it's true. And the degree 796 00:45:05,396 --> 00:45:08,956 Speaker 1: to which we're watching in the Trump era, men of 797 00:45:09,196 --> 00:45:13,316 Speaker 1: affluence and wealth and connections have the kind of lawyering 798 00:45:13,916 --> 00:45:19,236 Speaker 1: that turns on levels of evidence that the vast majority 799 00:45:19,236 --> 00:45:22,236 Speaker 1: of indigent defendants in this country never even come close 800 00:45:22,276 --> 00:45:24,556 Speaker 1: to being able to argue, and even if they argue 801 00:45:24,596 --> 00:45:27,396 Speaker 1: them successfully, if they go before a judge are not 802 00:45:27,516 --> 00:45:29,316 Speaker 1: likely to win the case, and if they go before 803 00:45:29,316 --> 00:45:31,636 Speaker 1: a jury are also not likely to win the case. 804 00:45:32,036 --> 00:45:35,996 Speaker 1: Tells us a lot about the moral corruption and bankruptcy 805 00:45:36,396 --> 00:45:39,636 Speaker 1: of our entire system that, as Brian Stephenson says to quote, 806 00:45:39,636 --> 00:45:41,636 Speaker 1: if you're rich and guilty, you're more likely to go 807 00:45:41,676 --> 00:45:44,396 Speaker 1: free then if you're poor and innocent. Khaliljubran Mohammed, thank 808 00:45:44,396 --> 00:45:48,916 Speaker 1: you for taking us deep into the prehistory and looking 809 00:45:48,996 --> 00:45:51,196 Speaker 1: us looking with us into the future. Thank you very much, 810 00:45:51,236 --> 00:46:05,516 Speaker 1: great to be here. We have the tendency to think 811 00:46:05,836 --> 00:46:08,956 Speaker 1: that the problems of racing incarceration are pretty new problems. 812 00:46:09,516 --> 00:46:11,516 Speaker 1: Maybe they go back to the nineteen sixties, we think, 813 00:46:11,636 --> 00:46:13,996 Speaker 1: or maybe they're even more recent. Maybe they have to 814 00:46:14,036 --> 00:46:17,076 Speaker 1: do with the crackdown on crime in the nineteen eighties 815 00:46:17,436 --> 00:46:20,796 Speaker 1: and the rise of stop and frisk policing. But listening 816 00:46:20,796 --> 00:46:23,116 Speaker 1: to Khalil made me realize that's just not the way 817 00:46:23,116 --> 00:46:26,916 Speaker 1: it is. He traces the problem of race and incarceration 818 00:46:26,996 --> 00:46:29,236 Speaker 1: being closely linked all the way back to eighteen ninety 819 00:46:29,436 --> 00:46:32,796 Speaker 1: and even maybe before then, to the very moment when 820 00:46:32,876 --> 00:46:37,476 Speaker 1: slavery went away and was replaced almost immediately by segregation 821 00:46:37,716 --> 00:46:41,076 Speaker 1: as the main mechanism of establishing racial control over black 822 00:46:41,116 --> 00:46:45,116 Speaker 1: people in the United States. That's a devastating thought, and 823 00:46:45,196 --> 00:46:48,276 Speaker 1: it makes you worry about whether America's DNA is so 824 00:46:48,316 --> 00:46:51,196 Speaker 1: fundamentally racist that we can't fix the problem of race 825 00:46:51,236 --> 00:46:54,316 Speaker 1: and incarceration. And I think it helps explain why it 826 00:46:54,436 --> 00:46:57,076 Speaker 1: is that so many serious thought leaders in this area, 827 00:46:57,156 --> 00:46:59,796 Speaker 1: people like Khalil, have begun to argue for the most 828 00:46:59,876 --> 00:47:03,636 Speaker 1: radical possible solution to the problem, namely the abolition of prisons. 829 00:47:04,756 --> 00:47:07,396 Speaker 1: Not sure I'm there myself quite yet, but it's really 830 00:47:07,396 --> 00:47:09,636 Speaker 1: clear to me that I and the most of us 831 00:47:09,836 --> 00:47:12,396 Speaker 1: need to be thinking pretty darn hard about whether that's 832 00:47:12,396 --> 00:47:18,596 Speaker 1: the way to go. Deep Background is brought to you 833 00:47:18,636 --> 00:47:22,316 Speaker 1: by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia Geancott, with engineering 834 00:47:22,316 --> 00:47:26,596 Speaker 1: by Jason Gambrel and Jason Rostkowski. Our showrunner is Sophie mckibbon. 835 00:47:26,876 --> 00:47:29,996 Speaker 1: Our theme music is composed by Luis GERA special thanks 836 00:47:29,996 --> 00:47:33,636 Speaker 1: to the Pushkin Brass Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, and Mia Lobel. 837 00:47:34,076 --> 00:47:36,356 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. You can follow me on Twitter at 838 00:47:36,356 --> 00:47:39,316 Speaker 1: Noah R. Feldman. This is deep background