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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 3: news media and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints

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Speaker 3: dot com. Let's turn out to some internal divisions inside

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Speaker 3: of the Trump administration. Elon Musk, allegedly the most powerful

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Speaker 3: person who was currently in the Trump administration, is majorly

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Speaker 3: counter signaling the Donald Trump tariffs. He appeared recently in

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Speaker 3: an interview with respect to Europe where he has been

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Speaker 3: speaking against tariffs and what he would like to see

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Speaker 3: is the end goal.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a listen.

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Speaker 4: I'm hopeful, for example, with the tariffs that at the

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Speaker 4: end of the day, I hope it is agreed that

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Speaker 4: both Europe and the United States should move ideally in

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Speaker 4: my view, to a zero tariff situation, effectively creating a

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Speaker 4: free trade zone between Europe and North America. And that

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Speaker 4: would be my That's what I hope occurs. And also

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Speaker 4: more freedom of people to move between Europe and North

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Speaker 4: America if they wish, if they wish to work in Europe,

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Speaker 4: who wish to work in America, they should be allowed

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Speaker 4: to do so in my view. So that has certainly

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Speaker 4: been my advice to the president.

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Speaker 3: Obviously that's not what the President has taken in terms

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Speaker 3: of his advice.

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Speaker 1: And Elon is now openly.

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Speaker 3: At war with Peter Navarro, who is Trump's trade advisor

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Speaker 3: and definitely the person where a lot of these formula

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Speaker 3: and this idea came from.

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Speaker 1: Put this up there on the screen just so you

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Speaker 1: guys can see.

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Speaker 3: So Navarro gave an interview where he was responding to

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Speaker 3: some of Elon's To some of Elon's points, Elon replied,

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Speaker 3: a PhD in Econ from Harvard is a bad thing,

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Speaker 3: not a good thing. Results in the ego and brains

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Speaker 3: are greater than problem. He replies, Navarro is one hundred

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Speaker 3: percent correct, PhD or no PhD, just obsessed with trade

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Speaker 3: for quite a while. Elon quote, he ain't built shit.

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Speaker 3: Here is Peter Navarro's response, Let's take a listen.

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Speaker 5: Can we go back to Elon Musk for a second,

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Speaker 5: because I'm glad that you brought that up. He also

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Speaker 5: took a shot at you personally on X and he's

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Speaker 5: going against the administration with respect to the tariff policy.

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Speaker 5: The President has said in the coming months he may

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Speaker 5: leave the administration.

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Speaker 6: Peter, is there a rift internally?

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Speaker 7: No? Look Elon.

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Speaker 8: Look Elon when he's in his doge line is great,

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Speaker 8: But we understand what's going on here? Do we just

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Speaker 8: have to understand? Elon sells cars and he's in Texas

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Speaker 8: assembling cars that have big parts of that car from Mexico, China.

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Speaker 8: Batteries come from Japan or China, the electronics come from Taiwan,

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Speaker 8: and he's simply protecting his own interests as any business

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Speaker 8: person would do. We're more concerned about Detroit building cadillacts

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Speaker 8: with American engines, and that's what this is all about.

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Speaker 8: So it's fine, there's no riff here.

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Speaker 3: There's no rift, Crystal. So who do we wrote root for?

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Speaker 3: Is this is an Iran Iraq situation? You wish puts

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Speaker 3: both sides. The best of Lovey is that is that

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Speaker 3: where I don't know, he's not wrong in terms of

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Speaker 3: Elon's incentives.

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Speaker 1: What's Tesla stock at But here's the thing.

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Speaker 6: Here's the thing though.

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Speaker 1: Minus nine today, good Lord.

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Speaker 6: Tesla has god Let's issues.

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Speaker 2: The Tesla mostly elonth leadership and the union busting, but

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Speaker 2: they've gone out of their way to source parts domestically.

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Speaker 3: They are made in America, beyond the battery. It's the

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Speaker 3: more made in America card than GM.

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Speaker 2: I want you to think about what Peter Navarro was

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Speaker 2: actually saying here, because if their policy was going to

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Speaker 2: do what you're saying, this policy is going to do,

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Speaker 2: should be a huge beneficiary. They're an American made car.

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Speaker 2: This should be great. Elon should be celebrating, this would

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Speaker 2: be his And the fact that for even Tesla, which

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Speaker 2: has done everything they can to have a supply chain

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Speaker 2: that is more or less here in America, that for

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Speaker 2: even them, it's going to be devastating and a real

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Speaker 2: problem in Tesla stock is falling.

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Speaker 6: You know, there's all sorts of.

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Speaker 2: Reasons Tesla stock's been falling, but the latest one is

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Speaker 2: certainly related to the tariffs. As the rest of the

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Speaker 2: market is in freefall at the moment, So it's such

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Speaker 2: an admission that even for a company like Tesla, this

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Speaker 2: is going to be extremely bad for business. As far

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Speaker 2: as Elon's ideology, you know, we noted, I don't think

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Speaker 2: this got nearly enough attention at the time when he

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Speaker 2: was out there praising Javier Malay, it was anarcho capitalist,

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Speaker 2: you know, hardcore libertarian leader of Argentina praising him for

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Speaker 2: rolling back tariffs, and we noted that right away, like

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Speaker 2: that's very different from what the Trump plan here is. Ultimately,

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Speaker 2: Elon also so had gone to war over you know,

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Speaker 2: h one B's with members of the sort of like

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Speaker 2: Steve Bannon type MAGA portion of the Republican base. At

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Speaker 2: that time, he won the fight for Donald Trump's heart.

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Speaker 2: Trump basically, you know, completely sided with him in that

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Speaker 2: particular battle. That's not going to be the case in

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Speaker 2: this battle because Trump has just decided this is happening period,

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Speaker 2: end of story. So you know, question mark what this

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Speaker 2: means for the future of the Trump Elon relationship. Last

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Speaker 2: week we talked about the fact that Trump was saying

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Speaker 2: he Elon's going to be out in a few months.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Elon has already completely changed his political stripes.

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Speaker 6: You could see him.

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Speaker 2: If the Democrats go back to being like a total neoliberal,

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Speaker 2: like they're renegotiating TPP or whatever, maybe Elon's going to

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Speaker 2: come back to the Democratic Party. I don't think that

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Speaker 2: any Democrats should ultimately want that, but who knows what

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Speaker 2: the future is going to hold. But you know, very

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Speaker 2: noteworthy given how much power Elon has and how Peter

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Speaker 2: Navarro really is the sort of like hardest core ideological

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Speaker 2: tear up supporter within the Trump administration. Who I mean,

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Speaker 2: he is the sickest fan, but that's he's not just

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Speaker 2: there to be a sick fan.

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Speaker 3: Allow you know, let me go off on this a

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Speaker 3: little bit because I like Peter Navarro and I'm pro

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Speaker 3: tariff and I'm pro to but like this talking point,

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Speaker 3: that's the problem with Japan. Like Trump just put this out,

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Speaker 3: spoke to the Japanese Prime minister this morning. He's sending

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Speaker 3: a trop team to negotiate. They have treated the US

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Speaker 3: very poorly. They don't take our cars, but we take

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Speaker 3: millions of theirs. Yeah, you could give away a Ford

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Speaker 3: f one fifty in Tokyo and they wouldn't drive it.

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Speaker 1: Why would you.

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Speaker 3: It's an over engineered, eighty something thousand dollars massive car.

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Speaker 3: That wouldn't make sense when you have access to a

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Speaker 3: ten thousand dollars more fuel efficient.

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Speaker 1: Toyota high loock.

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Speaker 3: You know why we drive Toyota's because they're more fuel efficient,

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Speaker 3: more comfortable, better engineered, and they're cheaper.

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Speaker 1: It's not because of a trade deficit. Same in Europe.

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Speaker 3: The Fords and Chevies or whatever that sell in Europe,

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Speaker 3: they would never sell here.

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Speaker 1: They're tiny.

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Speaker 3: If you ever go over there, you don't even recognize

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Speaker 3: some of these models America.

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Speaker 2: Try to drive an F one to fifty through like

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Speaker 2: a European yea.

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Speaker 6: Literally, you could work.

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Speaker 3: You ranked one of those piece of shits little Pugo's,

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Speaker 3: and to'll be driving around in Italy and you still

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Speaker 3: can barely fit the damn thing through these one thousand

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Speaker 3: year old Okay, so that's one thing. But that's what

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Speaker 3: he's like, This is a Steven Miller thing too. He's like,

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Speaker 3: you never see any American cars in Japan. I'm like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: why is that? It's like, it's not because they're it's

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Speaker 3: not because they're being blocked.

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Speaker 1: It's because their cars are better than.

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Speaker 3: Ours, And I hate I hate sounding like some Milton

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Speaker 3: Friedman esque like they're you know, specialized comparative advantage, But like,

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Speaker 3: what are we doing here? Do we really want to

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Speaker 3: Japanese who have half of the median income of the

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Speaker 3: average American to be rolling around in a.

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Speaker 1: Cadillac with a cooler in it?

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Speaker 3: The way that that's what these Americans are buying. And

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Speaker 3: actually they shouldn't even buy them. They're ridiculous. They break

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Speaker 3: all the time, they have too many electronics in it,

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Speaker 3: They're way too expensive. We choose all of this bullshit

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Speaker 3: luxury and then wonder why they were get to twenty

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Speaker 3: percent APR and a sixty eight thousand dollars car payment

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Speaker 3: for a brand new car. It's one of those where

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Speaker 3: it's totally out of step, Like they would laugh at

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Speaker 3: you if we were like, oh, you need to buy more?

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Speaker 3: What is the Chevy equinhawks And I'm like, no, why

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Speaker 3: would I do that? Whenever I have access to the

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Speaker 3: Toyleta will last me for twenty five years, or Honda

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Speaker 3: or you know, go to South Korea and tell them

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Speaker 3: this preposterous This is where I just I'm seeing it's

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Speaker 3: not even nineteenth century, because at least that actually made sense,

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Speaker 3: you know, I dug out, Actually, I'll bring it in.

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Speaker 3: We can, we can look it over together. I have

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Speaker 3: a nineteen oh two US at list that I found

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Speaker 3: in an antique store, and it's awesome because it shows

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Speaker 3: all of our national expenditures and our customs duties.

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Speaker 1: And it's true, almost.

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Speaker 3: Forty two percent of all of revenue in nineteen oh

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Speaker 3: two from my at list shows comes from the customs duties.

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Speaker 3: But you know, it's also a country that basically spent

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Speaker 3: nothing and had no income to act. It was very,

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Speaker 3: very different, right.

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Speaker 7: One of the.

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Speaker 3: Interesting things in there too is to actually see how

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Speaker 3: little America mattered at that time. In that atlas, it

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Speaker 3: has a list of the military sizes of the Great

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Speaker 3: German of the Germanic Empire, and America's like number twenty

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Speaker 3: five in all of these It's not just a fascinating

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Speaker 3: view into history. But my point just broadly is just like,

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Speaker 3: what are we trying to do here? Are we trying

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Speaker 3: to have more reindustrialization?

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Speaker 1: Great?

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Speaker 3: Do we want to force jap American cars on? Have

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Speaker 3: we not exported enough Western bullshit over to them?

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Speaker 1: Leave them alone?

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Speaker 7: Same?

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Speaker 3: You know, with there and this is not just my

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Speaker 3: you know, Japanese love same thing with the Europeans, like

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Speaker 3: they drive their cars because they're engineered for their purposes,

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Speaker 3: in the same way that the Jeep grand wagoneer with

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Speaker 3: coolers appeals to the American soccer mom. Most of the

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Speaker 3: other rest of the world thinks that's grotesque and weird.

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Speaker 3: But you know, different markets, different strokes for different folks.

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Speaker 3: I just like listening to all of this. It's that

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Speaker 3: their own goals make genuinely no sense on their face.

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Speaker 3: And I don't think it's just people like me who

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Speaker 3: are free you know, anti free trade protections or whatever.

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Speaker 3: Even to the basic person, the person who is dying

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Speaker 3: to understand this, you can't. There's nothing there, there's nothing

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Speaker 3: to tug on.

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Speaker 2: No, there is nothing there, And it's it's going to harm.

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Speaker 2: Like if your goal is increasing manufacturing in the US,

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Speaker 2: it's going to harm manufacturing in the US. If there

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Speaker 2: is no change to this, it will harm manufacturing in

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Speaker 2: the US, it will harm ordinary people. And we've talked

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Speaker 2: about this in previous shows, but I want to make

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Speaker 2: sure we get in this show too. The whole social

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Speaker 2: contract of this country is cheap shit that's what we don't.

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Speaker 1: Get, and the number has to go up for.

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Speaker 6: And the number has to That's right, that's what we like.

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Speaker 2: That's we don't have a social safety not like the

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Speaker 2: you know, Norwegian we don't have that, like the Scandinavian countries,

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Speaker 2: like Europe does.

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Speaker 6: We don't have that. Okay, so what do we get?

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Speaker 2: We get our Walmart runs, we get our Costco trips,

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Speaker 2: we get what hassan biker calls our treats.

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Speaker 6: We get our treats, we get them cheap, and the

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Speaker 6: line goes up. That's the deal. Okay. I would like

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Speaker 6: to change that deal.

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Speaker 2: The deal that is on offer from Trump is you

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Speaker 2: don't get your treats and you don't get anything else.

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Speaker 2: You don't get anything else, You're gonna lose your job.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna have a recession. The line is gonna go down.

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Speaker 2: Like I mean, he is playing with fire. He really

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Speaker 2: is playing with fire here. And maybe uh, you know,

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Speaker 2: the global economy is able to absorb this better than

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Speaker 2: we expect. Maybe the charish are rolled back and Trump

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Speaker 2: is you know, making the ultimate bluff here, and maybe

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Speaker 2: it doesn't end up as catastrophic as it could. But

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Speaker 2: he is playing with fire because you are getting to

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Speaker 2: the core contract that has been made and sold to

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Speaker 2: the American people over fifty years. And he is in

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Speaker 2: one fell sloop swoop without any democratic input, knowing damn

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Speaker 2: well that it is going to be like a political

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Speaker 2: bloodbath for him in his body whatever. He doesn't care.

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Speaker 2: He is in one fell swoop with no democratic input,

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Speaker 2: completely blowing that up. We'll see, we'll see what the

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Speaker 2: fallout is. We'll see how people react to that. But

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Speaker 2: I think it's I think on it makes it honestly,

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Speaker 2: you know. One of the things that are also about

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Speaker 2: the market rash that also was like making me sick

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Speaker 2: last week to think about. There was a metric that

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Speaker 2: came out I think from Friday's trading that hedge funders

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Speaker 2: were dumping more than equities than they ever had before.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I did see that.

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Speaker 2: And retail was buying the dip at larger numbers. And

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Speaker 2: so you also have like the movement over the past

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Speaker 2: number of years or like the you know, the the

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Speaker 2: Stonks movement, the game stop that like impetus of retail

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Speaker 2: trading and crypto and those people are going to get destroyed.

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Speaker 2: Like I just the amount of pain the real harm

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Speaker 2: that all of this is going to do to real

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Speaker 2: people boggles my mind. It just boggles my mind. I

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Speaker 2: cannot wrap my head around it. And so I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know where we're by.

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Speaker 3: The dip ros are and a tough one because they're

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Speaker 3: about down about ten percent when they bought the dip

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Speaker 3: So you know it's rough. At the same time, you know,

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Speaker 3: I feel of a long term view, et cetera. Yes,

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Speaker 3: things are cheap, and I wouldn't ever encourage panic.

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Speaker 6: Sellings, not financial advice.

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Speaker 1: This none of this is you absolute shouldn't ask me.

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Speaker 3: But just generally, where we are selling, we are screwing

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Speaker 3: with people's lives. Yes, there will be damage at a

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Speaker 3: personal level. The number one cause of divorce in North

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Speaker 3: America is money problems. The number was one of the

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Speaker 3: major reasons that commit people commit suicide, great depression, people

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Speaker 3: feeling inadequate, et cetera. That's just tell on a person,

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Speaker 3: men in particular, man in particular, provider role. Go look

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Speaker 3: at the male suicide rate from O nine bloodbath. The

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Speaker 3: same thing whenever it comes to businesses, people's dreams. I

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Speaker 3: just talked, it's April. A lot of people graduating millions

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Speaker 3: of Americans graduating in a month from now. What are

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Speaker 3: they gonna do, you know, their theory? What are their

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Speaker 3: parents going to be? Can they are they gonna have

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Speaker 3: to move home? A whole generation of millennials had to

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Speaker 3: move home. It was embarrassing, you know, for a lot

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Speaker 3: of folks. They felt very inadequate. It caused a lot

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Speaker 3: of social problems. All of the this is coming together

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Speaker 3: right now, and yeah, you're screwing with people's lives. That's

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Speaker 3: really where you know. I don't I don't forgive that.

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Speaker 3: I don't downplay that, And I think it's a genuine

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Speaker 3: red like it's a red button panic mode. And people

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Speaker 3: can accuse you of bed wetting and all that. I'm

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Speaker 3: always going to bed web for people who are you know,

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Speaker 3: for who are trying to just live at a very

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Speaker 3: basic level, and who as you said, they signed the contract,

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Speaker 3: they didn't do anything wrong, and I genuinely don't think

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Speaker 3: that they are getting what they thought they were going

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Speaker 3: to get. Like you could say all you want about

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Speaker 3: Trump ten percent, this is catched so far beyond that

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Speaker 3: from where you know anything that he sold out on

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Speaker 3: the campaign and even common understanding.

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Speaker 2: He ran on I'm going to bring prices down, right,

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Speaker 2: this is going to raise prices significant. And now he's

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Speaker 2: saying I don't really care. I could care less prices

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Speaker 2: go up. I mean that is directly contradary. So yes, look,

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Speaker 2: if you're a Wall Street if you're on Wallstreet and

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Speaker 2: you were like placing bets based on that, he's not

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Speaker 2: serious about these tariffs. Like you were a fool. Sorry,

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Speaker 2: you were an absolute fool. You should have just read

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Speaker 2: Jeff Stine and the Washington Post and you'd be much

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Speaker 2: better position. But for your ordinary person, he was out

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Speaker 2: there saying I'm going to deal with this inflation crisis,

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Speaker 2: like this was a central centerpiece of his campaign.

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Speaker 6: And I saw the numbers earlier.

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Speaker 2: Forty percent of the people who shifted from Biden to

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Speaker 2: vote for Trump, they said inflation was their number one reason, right,

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Speaker 2: That's what they thought they were getting. They thought that

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Speaker 2: that was Trump was the businessman, and he would, you know,

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Speaker 2: write the economics ship, and he's always had high approval

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Speaker 2: ratings on the economy, and they just sort of felt

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Speaker 2: like he's got it, like he'll do a good job, right,

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Speaker 2: whatever that entails. He says, terrorists, he says, you know,

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Speaker 2: tax Cus.

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Speaker 6: Well, I he'll figure it out. He's a good businessman.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure he's gonna, you know, steer your scent in

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Speaker 2: a good direction. In no way, in no land did

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Speaker 2: the mass of voters think that intentionally crashing the stock

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Speaker 2: market was going to be that direction. And the reason

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Speaker 2: I keep saying that was such kind. He posted himself

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Speaker 2: a video that said Trump is intentionally crashing the stock market,

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Speaker 2: and how can you not look at this and say,

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Speaker 2: he is andeering a massive crash of the stock market

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Speaker 2: and very likely if we continue in this direction, a

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Speaker 2: recession intentionally.

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Speaker 6: That's probably a.

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Speaker 2: Good transition point, given the likely fallout from these policies,

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Speaker 2: to move to the already the resistance that is formed

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Speaker 2: on among the liberal base against Trump. You know, one

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Speaker 2: of the early some of the early things that we

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Speaker 2: said about Trump two point zero after the election in particular,

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Speaker 2: and even early into inauguration the early months of his

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Speaker 2: administration is like, this resistance is not the same as

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Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. Like you had the Women's March. It was

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Speaker 2: so many people in the streets. You had, of course,

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Speaker 2: and this part still is different, but you had democratic

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Speaker 2: electeds and the media and a lot of corporate executives

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Speaker 2: all standing up against Trump. This time the landscape is

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Speaker 2: very different. Well, over the weekend, we had our first

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Speaker 2: mass resistance anti Trump protests movement.

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Speaker 6: This was organized.

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Speaker 2: It's called hands Off and let's go ahead and put

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Speaker 2: the vo up on the screen and I can tell

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Speaker 2: you more about it.

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Speaker 6: So this was from Boston.

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Speaker 2: Estimates are that there were some six hundred thousand people

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Speaker 2: that came out in locations across the country. So this

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Speaker 2: is Austin, Texas here. There were protests in all fifty states.

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Speaker 2: There were Ryan Grimm's dad was down at one in

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Speaker 2: the village, you know, down even in my area, which

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Speaker 2: is you know, pretty far outside of of DC, there

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Speaker 2: was a protest there.

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Speaker 6: That was making Georgia. Here's Oakland, California.

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Speaker 2: There were huge ones in the major cities in New York,

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Speaker 2: in Chicago, Portland, Oregon with a very significant protest there, Richmond, Virginia.

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Speaker 2: I know, I saw quite significant one in Utah in

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Speaker 2: Salt Lake City, Utah. Even in some smaller places like

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Speaker 2: we had the make and Georgia one up on the screen.

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Speaker 2: So thirteen hundred different locations, all fifty states, six hundred

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Speaker 2: thousand people and you know, the branding is interesting to

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Speaker 2: meet too, Soccer, because this is also i think a

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Speaker 2: contrast from last time around the beating heart of the

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Speaker 2: sort of Democrats a base resistance to Trump last time

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Speaker 2: was Russiagate, and it was also like, you know, him

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Speaker 2: being a misogynist. That's where the women's march, the hands

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Speaker 2: off you know whatever, Yeah, the grab a vibe.

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Speaker 1: Let's just let's just all forget that that happened this Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So anyway, this time it's the messaging is hands off,

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Speaker 2: as in hands off soci security, hands off Medicare, hands

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Speaker 2: off Medicaid, hands off veterans.

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Speaker 6: And there was a lot of both.

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Speaker 2: You know, anti Trump and anti dog and anti elon sentiment.

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Speaker 2: But there was also a lot of frustration too, and

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Speaker 2: we can put put e three actually up on the

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Speaker 2: screen from Ken Klippenstein. There was also a lot of

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Speaker 2: frustration among these folks aimed at Democrats, who Democratic elected officials,

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Speaker 2: who they felt was were not fighting back adequately. The

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Speaker 2: So there was a lot more of a i guess

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Speaker 2: a sort of class war frame here as well in

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Speaker 2: terms of focusing on the social safety net versus twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 2: But Ken was there at one protest, and he talked

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Speaker 2: to people and just asked them, like, why are you there.

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Speaker 2: One person said Luigi was very right.

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Speaker 6: If that gives you a.

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Speaker 2: Sense of where they are right now. Another one said

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Speaker 2: Congress is doing nothing. They were disgusted with the lack

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Speaker 2: of leadership, both from Congressional Republicans and Democrats. There's no spine,

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Speaker 2: said another is this America? There were a lot of

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Speaker 2: concerns about the deportation with no due process, the disappearing

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Speaker 2: of people into this foreign gulag, and El Salvador recover

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Speaker 2: more developments there tomorrow. Someone said, we have to fight

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Speaker 2: height harder, We have to get rid of them. It's

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Speaker 2: rough out there, and talking specifically about Trump and Musk.

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Speaker 2: So what I would say is Sager, why I think

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Speaker 2: that these are significant is, first, it's the first like

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Speaker 2: real mass resistance that we've seen. Second, it comes at

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Speaker 2: a pivotal moment because you just had the Wisconsin Supreme

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Speaker 2: Court thing, in those Florida special elections, and now you

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Speaker 2: have this tariff insanity, and so I think it will

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Speaker 2: probably make Republicans a little bit more nervous about the

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Speaker 2: way that the opposition is getting more organized and more vocal.

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Speaker 2: And I think probably most significantly, it will help bolster

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Speaker 2: Democrats and make them feel a little more emboldened than

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Speaker 2: the meek way that they have predominantly been operating in

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Speaker 2: the Trump two point zero well.

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Speaker 3: I think that the benefit that the protest movement has

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Speaker 3: more than anything is that the doge and social Security

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Speaker 3: was it was realistic, but it was still somewhat hypothetical,

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Speaker 3: and it was like, Okay, it's going to eventually get

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Speaker 3: to this place, right about social Security, Medicare, etc. Yes,

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Speaker 3: we can talk about longer lines, but this is not

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Speaker 3: exactly the same thing as like a real cut, same

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Speaker 3: with elon taking over the government or any of that.

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Speaker 1: That was all.

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Speaker 3: I think it still requires quite a bit of like

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Speaker 3: media literacy and its people actually reading the news to

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Speaker 3: be able to connect with that everybody can connect with

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Speaker 3: losing money and higher prices. That's where what you want

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Speaker 3: is your protest, the center of gravity of your argument

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00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,879
Speaker 3: to hit to exactly where people's concern is.

439
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:03,040
Speaker 1: That is where people are.

440
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,720
Speaker 3: At right now, and that's why we can all agree

441
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,160
Speaker 3: at a fundamental level that this is one which will

442
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,640
Speaker 3: strike truly at the heart of where every common American

443
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,639
Speaker 3: can come together. Immigration, I mean, look, even on the

444
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,080
Speaker 3: immigration thing, as you know, I changed my mind on

445
00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 3: this stuff. But the Wall Street Journal poll shows that

446
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,720
Speaker 3: even if you violate due process, the due process, I

447
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:24,919
Speaker 3: think the majority of Americans, the people who stand behind

448
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,919
Speaker 3: that people got to be honest about where the country

449
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,919
Speaker 3: is too on immigration. So as much concern trolling as

450
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 3: or does come from a lot of liberal activists, like

451
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,320
Speaker 3: you've got to understand also where a lot of public

452
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,000
Speaker 3: opinion is on the other side. But here this is

453
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,879
Speaker 3: where public opinion I think is totally united behind at

454
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,480
Speaker 3: least on increased prices and the violation of the social

455
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,200
Speaker 3: contract without an immense amount of change on the other side,

456
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,199
Speaker 3: which they're not wrong, they don't see and they're correct.

457
00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't call it concern trolling.

458
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:54,119
Speaker 6: I would just call it concern.

459
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 3: Well, I'm just saying, though, I mean, you have to

460
00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 3: acknowledge the architect the architecture of where we are in

461
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 3: the discourse as a country that's a pretty insane place.

462
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:03,920
Speaker 6: Country has moved.

463
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,640
Speaker 2: I saw that pole and the way that it was phrased,

464
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 2: it is definitely did not ask the question do you

465
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 2: support sending indefinitely a makeup artist who has literally done

466
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,400
Speaker 2: nothing wrong at all to a foreign prison to be torture.

467
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:20,439
Speaker 6: For the rest of his life. That was not the

468
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 6: phrasing of the Pole.

469
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 2: So I don't think that Democrat should be afraid of

470
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 2: prosecuting that case as well. But there is no doubt

471
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,439
Speaker 2: that in terms of you know, what will cause people

472
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 2: en mass to completely turn on this administration, this president specifically,

473
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 2: like if your your bottom line is your bottom line,

474
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 2: if you can't make rent, if you can't afford to

475
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 2: feedure it, prices are going up, if you lose your job,

476
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 2: if the president engineers a recession, you can.

477
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:51,160
Speaker 6: Expect these protests to be like to look like.

478
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 2: Nothing compared to the backlash that will come. And that

479
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,880
Speaker 2: seems to be what Trump is is courting right now.

480
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 2: So with that being said, we're really excited to be

481
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 2: able to have Rocana on and or in casts. So

482
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:07,879
Speaker 2: both of them just to set this up a little bit,

483
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 2: and they'll explain their positions specifically, so I don't mischaracterize,

484
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,880
Speaker 2: but you know, Rowe is someone who is not an ioliberal.

485
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,160
Speaker 2: He supports some level of protection and he's certainly supported

486
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 2: the Biden protectionism and industrial policy. Orn also supported the

487
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 2: Biden tariffs and industrial policy. Oran is on the right.

488
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 2: He is very supportive of tariffs in general. However, he

489
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 2: does have some concerns about the way that this is

490
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 2: playing out. So I think it should be an interesting

491
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,239
Speaker 2: discussion slash debate between the two of them about the

492
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 2: actual contours of what is being done here, and you

493
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,920
Speaker 2: know what the fallout could ultimately be. So let's go

494
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 2: ahead and get to that discussion. So we are very

495
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 2: fortunate to be joined by two friends of the show

496
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 2: here for a little friendly discussion slash maybe debate. We

497
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 2: have orn Cass who is senior economists for American Compass,

498
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 2: and we also have Connerson Rocanna of California.

499
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 6: Great to see both of you. Really appreciate you taking the.

500
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 1: Time, Gridge to you.

501
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 7: Thank you. Congressman.

502
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, of course you should be on with the.

503
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 7: Warn I always love debating or chatting with them.

504
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 2: Lovely, all right, congresson, let me just start with you,

505
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 2: just top line, what do you think of what the

506
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 2: President's up to here?

507
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 9: This is the single most destructive act to the American

508
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 9: economy and American wealth in modern times.

509
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 7: I mean, you have to look at probably what Vulker.

510
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 9: Did in the nineteen eighties in terms of inducing a

511
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 9: recession to have anything close and their vulgar actually had.

512
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 7: Reasons because you had high inflation.

513
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 9: Here, you just have blanket tariffs which are going to

514
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 9: actually make it harder for manufacturers because it's going to

515
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 9: drive up input costs and supply chain costs.

516
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 7: You have no permanence, so if you're Mary.

517
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 9: Barrow or Jim Farley, you can't even say let's build

518
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 9: factories here, because Trump himself would say, I don't know,

519
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 9: maybe these will be gone in a month or two

520
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:07,640
Speaker 9: months or a year. They're not targeted, and they're impacting

521
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 9: allies as as well as very poor countries. I mean,

522
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 9: it is just economic illiteracy. What I would say is,

523
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 9: you know, you have the sort of total free market

524
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 9: people who just think let everything be free markets. They're wrong,

525
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 9: and then you have this kind of incoherent protectionism. They're wrong,

526
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 9: and what we need is sort of smart industrial, smart tariff.

527
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 2: Policy or in what are your thoughts on the specifics

528
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 2: of what the president has imposed here?

529
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 10: Well, I guess I agree with some of that and

530
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 10: disagree with some of it. I think big picture, you know,

531
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 10: the direction here and moving away from the unfettered globalization

532
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 10: of the last generation is the right move. I actually

533
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,360
Speaker 10: think also that the sort of very blunt and broad tariffs,

534
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 10: something like a ten percent global tariff, is a useful policy.

535
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 10: Preferred to see us sort of change the rules of

536
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 10: the game in that way, then have government going product

537
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 10: by product, sector by sector and trying to figure out

538
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 10: what to do in every case. But I do agree

539
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 10: with the Congressman that in terms of how some of

540
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 10: this has been rolled out, with some of the confusion,

541
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 10: certainly the lack of permanence, I think we're sort of

542
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 10: increasing the costs a lot further than they need to be,

543
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 10: and we're probably not going to get all the benefits

544
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 10: that we potentially could. And so you know, in my mind,

545
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 10: I think the Vulgar comparison is actually very interesting because

546
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 10: you know, ultimately Vulker was addressing a very serious problem.

547
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 10: There was pain involved, and I think we all look

548
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 10: at back at that very grateful that we had leaders

549
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 10: who were willing to bite that bullet and that it

550
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 10: was successful. And so I think that model can work.

551
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 10: I think that kind of thing is needed here as well,

552
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 10: But the specifics do matter, and I think there's a

553
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 10: long way to go here. On the specifics.

554
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I meanficing to the specifics and more.

555
00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 3: Because we could debate roll out, we shall also a

556
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 3: debate vision about where things want to go. Something that

557
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 3: Howard Lutnik, the Commerce Secretary responsible for really much of

558
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 3: this out, has said is to bring back manufacturing, even

559
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,239
Speaker 3: in terms of screwing the little screws. So let's take

560
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 3: a listen to that, and we're going to get both

561
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 3: of your reactions.

562
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 11: Great American workers.

563
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 12: You know, we are going to a place on other network,

564
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,719
Speaker 12: armies of millions of people. Well remember the army of

565
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 12: millions and millions of human beings screwing in little little

566
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 12: screws to make iPhones.

567
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 11: That kind of thing is going to come to America.

568
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 11: It's going to be automated, and great Americans, the trade

569
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 11: craft of America is going to fix them, is going

570
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 11: to work on them. They're going to be mechanics, there's

571
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 11: going to be HVAC specialists, there's going to be electricians.

572
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,919
Speaker 11: The trade craft of America, our high school educated Americans,

573
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,239
Speaker 11: the corn to our workforce is going to have the

574
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 11: greatest resurgence of jobs in the history of America to

575
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 11: work on these high tech factories which are all coming

576
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 11: to America. That's what's going concerned the next generation of America.

577
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 3: Congress, your reaction up because you represent one of the

578
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 3: most high tech districts in the United States.

579
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 7: I was just a little bit sad.

580
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 9: I had invite the commerce sector to come out to

581
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 9: my district where could give him a free education. Screws

582
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 9: are about zero point two percent of an iPhone's cost.

583
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 7: You know, we may want to work on.

584
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 9: Things like the display screen or the flash drive or

585
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 9: the camera. I mean, it's almost like he's living in

586
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 9: the nineteenth century. Of course, they've got nineteenth century policies.

587
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 7: On how to build an industrial base.

588
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,360
Speaker 9: I mean, you want to build high tech factories here,

589
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 9: what we need is financing. What we need is a

590
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 9: government to say, if you build it, will buy it.

591
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 7: That's how Silicon Valley started. What we need is investment

592
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 7: in the workforce.

593
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 9: So they're just going about this in a way that

594
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 9: isn't how FDR or Hamilton or Lincoln built the America.

595
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 7: I mean, taris were a part of.

596
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 9: It, but it was a very discreet part of it.

597
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 9: FDR actually, who didn't want more to re industrialize America

598
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 9: than anyone in the modern age, actually opposed the high

599
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 9: terrafsy it's explicitly opposed as the smooth Hawley tariffs, and

600
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 9: then opposed high tariffs and had a.

601
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 7: Vision for industrialization.

602
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 9: So you know, this is just I can't emphasize enough

603
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 9: how much this is economic incoherence and how much Trump

604
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 9: supporters are a gas at what's going on.

605
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 7: I mean, the guy won because people thought he knew

606
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 7: what he was doing with.

607
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 9: The economy and business. And he's destroying American wealth. He's

608
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,479
Speaker 9: destroying American factories. There are no new factories that are

609
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 9: coming up because these things aren't permanent. He's increasing the

610
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 9: input cost of factories. He's hurting small businesses. The Russell

611
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 9: two thousand is collapsing, and I just I hope there's

612
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 9: some intervention or.

613
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 2: Let me let me get tried. I want your response

614
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 2: to that. But also some of the things Lutnik has

615
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 2: been saying kind of get to this key question of

616
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 2: what is even really the goal here, because you know,

617
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 2: people raise, Okay, let's say you bring iPhone production to

618
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 2: the US, the iPhones because we have higher labor costs

619
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 2: and because, by the way, you know, we don't have

620
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 2: as large of a social safety net. Also as other countries,

621
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 2: So businesses have to bear a lot of that cost

622
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 2: in terms of what they're paying labor. Things are going

623
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 2: to cost a lot more. And what Letnik has been

624
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 2: saying is no, because it's really going to be robots

625
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 2: doing this job, which raises a question of like, Okay,

626
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 2: so we're bringing back manufacturing for robots to fill the jobs,

627
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 2: or is this about jobs? Is it about national security

628
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 2: in your ideal world? What is actually the goal here?

629
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 2: Is it to have manufacturing capacity for robots to be

630
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 2: screwing in tiny screws, or is it to have manufacturing

631
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 2: capacity for human beings some blend.

632
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: Of the two.

633
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 2: How do you see that particular dimension of this.

634
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 10: It's a great question, and I guess briefly, I just

635
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 10: want to say I agree entirely with the Congressman about

636
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 10: his broader point about the other kinds of policy we

637
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 10: need here too, whether it's the financing policy, I think,

638
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 10: workforce development, yes, huge, you know that's not kind of

639
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 10: like details of implementation. That's a big part of the

640
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 10: strategy that I think we probably agree on to a

641
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 10: significant extent. I strongly disagree with his reaction to the

642
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 10: Commerce Secretary's comments because I think it reflects what we've

643
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 10: been seeing too much in this debate, which is an

644
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 10: attempt to sort of take the worst possible and even

645
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 10: obviously incorrect interpretation of what people are saying, just just

646
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 10: to dunk on it rather than try to engage with it.

647
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 10: Letnick didn't say it was the screws that were a

648
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 10: high value part of the iPhone and that that's what

649
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 10: he wanted people making. What he said was that he

650
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 10: wanted to have the actual assembly process, which includes the

651
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 10: screwing of the screws, in the United States, that that

652
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 10: would be automated, and that the good jobs that he's

653
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 10: talking about are the jobs actually operating the automated factory.

654
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 10: And so look, I'm happy to have a debate about

655
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 10: whether that's right, but let's be clear on what he

656
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 10: was actually saying, which is not nonsensical or incoherent, and

657
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 10: I think it's actually you're saying it.

658
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 7: Much more censically than he did. He did.

659
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 9: He didn't say let's have people be operating the advanced machines.

660
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 7: He said let's have them doing the assembly of the screws.

661
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 7: I just think he's out of touch.

662
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 9: I don't know if he's ever been to Apple's campus

663
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 9: or to Silicon Valley. I think he's got no clue

664
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 9: about technology. I think these people are stuck in James

665
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 9: folk expansionism and McKinley's tariffs. And the saddest thing is

666
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 9: they don't understand the modern economy.

667
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 7: They're kind of clueless.

668
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 1: Go ahead, orn you can respond to that.

669
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 9: Well.

670
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 10: Look, Keith, I mean was specifically saying he was talking

671
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 10: about the mechanics jobs maintaining the robots. This was I'm

672
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 10: happy to say that there's room for improvement on the

673
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 10: communication here, But what he was talking about is highly automated,

674
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 10: highly productive factories and the jobs that come along with those.

675
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 9: My guess is he probably wouldn't even be able to

676
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 9: name the five pp components of an iPhone. Like literally,

677
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 9: I don't think the guy understands the modern economy.

678
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 10: But fine, I understand that part of your job is

679
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 10: up communicating it. I understand that part of your job

680
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 10: is just to attack people on the other side. But

681
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 10: I'm interested in what the actual substance of the time.

682
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 9: I think it was collapse the American economy. Who has

683
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 9: gotten the people who are going to get people laid off? Yeah,

684
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 9: in that attack, and he's done almost destruction of American wealth,

685
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 9: of the American academy.

686
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 7: We won't see answered Crystal, he's in coherent.

687
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, go ahead and answer the question. And I want

688
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: to thank you God.

689
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 10: Yeah, because I think the vision point is very important here,

690
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 10: and it's it's a key point to understand that, you

691
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 10: know what what I think the Trump administration envisions. You know, certainly,

692
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 10: what I think is so important in focusing on this

693
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 10: reindustrialization is not that you're somehow bringing back the same

694
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 10: jobs of the nineteen fifties, doing the same kind of work.

695
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 10: What you're talking about is actually rebuilding the industrial base

696
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 10: and a strong industrial base in this country where we

697
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 10: do actually have high quality, advanced, cutting edge manufacturing across

698
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 10: a wide range of sectors.

699
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: For one thing, it.

700
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 10: Does provide a lot of good employment. And yes, there

701
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 10: are many fewer jobs in those factories than there were

702
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 10: in the factories.

703
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: Of the nineteen fifties, but you know what, there's a.

704
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 10: Lot more jobs in those factories than there already not

705
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 10: having the factories. And so when you're talking about how

706
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 10: you produce a broad based renaissance in the industrial economy,

707
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 10: you're talking about a lot of regions that have left

708
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 10: behind that you don't bring back by putting everybody back

709
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 10: in a factory. That you bring back by having highly productive,

710
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 10: high value factories. If we're sending a lot more advanced

711
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,399
Speaker 10: engineers to work in those factories, that would be great

712
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 10: for those regions too, And so there's a lot of

713
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 10: upside there.

714
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: And soccer.

715
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 10: Just to make one more quick point, I think the

716
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 10: other thing that's key to recognize here is that the

717
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 10: reason the industrial base is important is that you can't

718
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 10: just pick and choose which things you want to be

719
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 10: good at. We've tried to do that with our defense

720
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 10: industrial base. We're just going to be good at the

721
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 10: aircraft carriers and the submarines, and someone else can make

722
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 10: everything else. And what we're seeing is that you can't

723
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 10: just make those things, you can't just do the high

724
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 10: end stuff if you don't actually have the core industrial

725
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 10: base underneath it. And so that's why I think the

726
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 10: broad based tariff model is right. We actually we actually

727
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 10: do need to have a capacity to really make We're

728
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 10: not going to be authuric, we're not going to make

729
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 10: everything for ourselves, but we do to have an industrial

730
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 10: economy that supports our prosperity.

731
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:04,919
Speaker 3: One of the things that's at the heart of both

732
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 3: of your arguments. We'll start with Orn for you, with

733
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 3: you Orn, and then to you Congressman, because this is

734
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 3: a bit of a challenge, is that you're both kind

735
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 3: of talking more about quote unquote high tech manufacturing. But

736
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 3: the way that this is sold and ultimately was you know,

737
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 3: Trump was elected on the backs of was on working

738
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 3: class voters who don't necessarily have a four year college

739
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 3: degree or you know, years of vocational training and engineering knowledge,

740
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,280
Speaker 3: et cetera. So in both of your cases and support

741
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 3: of these policies, how do they actually help, you know,

742
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 3: the person in the bottom, let's say, quintile of the

743
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 3: American economy and somebody who feels as if their job

744
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 3: and their stable life was taken away from them, because

745
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 3: I haven't seen that in the vision that either of

746
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 3: you are really saying.

747
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: Or and you can start, well, let's.

748
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 10: Keep in mind that when you're talking about the bottom

749
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 10: of quintile, you know, you're talking about people don't even

750
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 10: have a high school educational a lot of times, and

751
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 10: so you know, to some extent what you also want

752
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 10: is even the sort of lower skilled you know, service

753
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,720
Speaker 10: jobs in a local economy, whether those are good jobs

754
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 10: depends on whether you have strong manufacturing base. I actually

755
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 10: love sending people to a wonderful video. You know, the

756
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 10: very libertarian Cato Institute did a video trying to show

757
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 10: that free trade was good, and they highlighted a town

758
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 10: that had been crushed by NAFTA, and then they showed

759
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 10: it coming back twenty years later. And the way that

760
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 10: it was coming back was with guess what, a new

761
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 10: manufacturing plant making cars to sell in America. And so

762
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 10: the examples of the jobs that created was not in

763
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,399
Speaker 10: the It was in the manufacturing plant for one thing.

764
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 10: It was also at the pizza parlor in town, because

765
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 10: you can have a good pizza parlor in a town

766
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 10: that has a strong manufacturing plant. And so this is

767
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 10: about a broader industrial ecosystem and a broader economy generally

768
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 10: that actually spreads economy or excuse me, that that spreads

769
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:42,800
Speaker 10: prosperity widely.

770
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, a congressman, go ahead.

771
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 7: Well, I agree with a number of things that were

772
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 7: to said.

773
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 9: One is that if you have factories in a place,

774
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 9: it has a multiplier effect three to four times. So

775
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 9: let's say you have a modern steel plant, You're not

776
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 9: going to have forty five hundred people because you have

777
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 9: robots in automation, you have one thousand people in a

778
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 9: town of twenty thirty thousand.

779
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,479
Speaker 7: That's still a lot. And if those are.

780
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 9: High paying jobs, they're going to spend them on restaurants,

781
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 9: they're going to spend them on daycare, they're going to

782
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 9: spend them on a gym membership, and it can actually

783
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 9: revitalize an economy. Now, to your point, Siger, there's a

784
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 9: difference between saying we want advanced manufacturing and we just want.

785
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 7: High tech stuff. I agree with you.

786
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 9: If it was just let's put semiconductor factories and battery

787
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 9: plants everywhere, that is maybe not going to create a

788
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 9: sufficient amount of jobs for the working and middle class.

789
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 9: But if we're talking about advanced steel plants, if we're

790
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 9: talking about advanced production in and of itself, that is

791
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 9: going to create electrician plumber.

792
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 7: Jobs, jobs of machinists.

793
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 9: And what we should do is make sure that every

794
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 9: person in high school has an opportunity to have a trade,

795
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 9: whether that's a vocational trade or a digital trade, and

796
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 9: many of these advanced manufacturers facilities would create those jobs.

797
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 9: Plus they're going to spawn the service sector to have

798
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 9: higher wages but it needs more of an investment in

799
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 9: the workforce, and it also needs, in my view, standards

800
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 9: for wages.

801
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 2: Laren, let me get to you on this piece, which

802
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 2: is something you've kind of alluded to, if we could

803
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 2: put F four up on the screen, because you've said, listen,

804
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 2: you support tariffs in principle, but it has to be

805
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 2: done the right way, and part of that, like a

806
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 2: really critical part of that the right way is pairing

807
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 2: it with industrial policy.

808
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 6: And you can see here we actually.

809
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 2: Not that it's been the end all be all, not

810
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 2: that it's been enough, not that we don't need to

811
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 2: do more, but we actually have had a policy over

812
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 2: the past couple of years that has significantly increased US

813
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 2: manufacturing construction spending, and that has been, you know, the

814
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:50,439
Speaker 2: Biden policy of combination of protectionism and industrial policy through

815
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 2: both the Chips Act and the Inflation Reduction Act.

816
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 6: So not only is this new.

817
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 2: Tariff scheme completely on board from any sort of industrial policy,

818
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 2: not only are we actually at a time when this

819
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 2: administration is engaged in an austerity push that was going

820
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 2: in the opposite direction of industrial policy, but they're also

821
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 2: undermining these programs which actually we're working to increase the

822
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 2: US manufacturing base.

823
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 10: Well, I certainly agree with the strength of some of

824
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 10: the industrial policy that we've seen in the last few years.

825
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 10: You know, I'm a very strong supporter of the Chips Act,

826
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 10: and I think what you saw in that chart was

827
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 10: a huge bump overall, driven almost entirely by a huge

828
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 10: bump in those red bars, the electronics and manufacturing where

829
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 10: the Chips ack. You know, look, we're spending a lot

830
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,760
Speaker 10: of public money. It's about forty billion dollars of public money,

831
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 10: but that is generating hundreds of billions of dollars of

832
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 10: investment in those specific chips factories. Then, you know, as

833
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,359
Speaker 10: the Congressman was describing, in a broader ecosystem of other

834
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 10: manufacturing and suppliers around them. That's a huge part of

835
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 10: the picture. I think my support is for the ada

836
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 10: that you don't want to only do that, And the

837
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 10: reason is that what we'd start to look at is, okay, well,

838
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 10: now every one of those bars that you want to increase,

839
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 10: are we going to go you know, are we going

840
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 10: to pass a law for everyone? Right? I mean, it

841
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,320
Speaker 10: took us four or five years to get the Chips

842
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 10: ACKed up and running. There's an interesting effort now on shipbuilding.

843
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 10: Funny enough, the Ships Act, you know, I think that's

844
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 10: very promising too. But the idea that we're going to

845
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,959
Speaker 10: go through every industry and in every case figure out

846
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 10: how to create a new bill, a new office to

847
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 10: fund the investment in that where there is something as

848
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 10: particularly a high priority like chips, absolutely is I think

849
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 10: the industrial policy push makes a lot of sense. But

850
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 10: on the on alongside that, accompanying it, I do think

851
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 10: it's important to put a thumb on the scale for

852
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:48,839
Speaker 10: domestic manufacturing broadly and say that whoever's supplying those factories

853
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 10: and other industries that aren't going to be politically sexy,

854
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,720
Speaker 10: you know, we would like to see investment in domestic

855
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 10: industry there.

856
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 2: Too, Congressman on that chart, and you know, you've you've

857
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 2: had sort of a bipartisan consensus that has emerged that

858
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 2: is a break from neoliberalism. And you know, Trump gets

859
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 2: some credit for that from his first term with his

860
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 2: China tariffs. I think, you know, the Biden policy maintained

861
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 2: most of those, expanded them, introduced the industrial policy piece.

862
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 6: And one of the things that I'm.

863
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,800
Speaker 2: Fearful of is that Democrats will just be completely negatively

864
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 2: polarized against all tariffs, and you already see some signs

865
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:28,359
Speaker 2: of this among the Democratic base. Representative Deluzio's member from

866
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 2: westerns Sorry, Western Pennsylvania, put on a video that was like, Hey,

867
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 2: I have big problems these tarifs.

868
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 6: Tarrifs in general.

869
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 2: Okay, maybe in the right place, but big problems with

870
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 2: what Trump is doing. And he was viciously attacked online

871
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 2: by a lot of liberal Democrats who say, how dare

872
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 2: you even say that tariffs are good in any circumstance?

873
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 6: Whatsoever?

874
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: You know, as you someone who has like myself a

875
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 2: more nuanced view on trade and sees the utility of

876
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 2: tariffs in certain targeted instances, what are you hearing and

877
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 2: feeling from your colleagues? Is that a concern that you share?

878
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 7: I think the.

879
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 9: Attacks on Representative de Lusia beIN totally uncalled for.

880
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 7: He's one of the most thoughtful people on this issue.

881
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 7: I'd highly recommend his New.

882
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 9: York Times out bet on terraffs, which he basically said,

883
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 9: smart terraffs to protect critical industries against unfair trade practices

884
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 9: and dumping are perfectly reasonable. What we don't want is

885
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,359
Speaker 9: blanket tariffs, and what we don't want is them done

886
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 9: with no collaboration, because you have no idea whether it's

887
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 9: going to be there a month, two months, three months,

888
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 9: and there is no planning in terms of whether they're

889
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 9: actually going to help create new factories.

890
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 7: So I think the attacks on him have been.

891
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 9: Unreasonable, and he's one of the most thoughtful members of Congress.

892
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 7: In fact, he's leading this group.

893
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,760
Speaker 9: I've been calling for economic patriotism, and he's been leading

894
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 9: a group of economic patriots.

895
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 7: Group that is very productive.

896
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 9: I do want to say that I appreciated Orion's role

897
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,879
Speaker 9: in helping with the Chips and Science Act Todd Young

898
00:42:58,920 --> 00:42:59,720
Speaker 9: and I did that.

899
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 7: With at the time. Senator Schumer is a much.

900
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 9: Better legislator than he is in this moment in getting

901
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 9: that through, and it's one of the things I'm proudest of.

902
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 7: And he's right.

903
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 9: From thirty billion dollars, that's won four hundred billion dollars

904
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 9: of investment all five semiconductor manufacturers Intel, Micron, sk Heinez, Samsung,

905
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 9: and TSMC here in the United States. No other country

906
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,879
Speaker 9: has that, and so we should be looking at efforts

907
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 9: like that. The problem is Trump is basically Reaganism of

908
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 9: the tax breaks deregulation disguised as I want to build

909
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 9: new factories, and basically he's added to that high, high

910
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 9: blanket irrational tariffs.

911
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 7: There's no strategy of building things.

912
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 9: And in the three periods in American history, you look

913
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 9: at Hamilton, you look at Lincoln, you look at FDR.

914
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 7: How they did it. The large part of it was.

915
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 9: In federal investment, then investment in our workforce.

916
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 3: My last question, urin this is a political and a

917
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 3: coalition question for you is restrained person. I supported the

918
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 3: withdrawal from Afghanistan, we also have to admit it was

919
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 3: a disaster the rollout, even if we support it on

920
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 3: a policy level, it enabled I would say, and I

921
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 3: know the Congressman will disagree with me full scale. You know,

922
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,879
Speaker 3: funding of the war in Ukraine. It emboldened the neo

923
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:18,839
Speaker 3: cons and in my opinion, you know, set our foreign

924
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,839
Speaker 3: policy in a much worse direction for a few years,

925
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 3: even though at a basic level I agreed, you know,

926
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 3: with the spirit of what was being done. Since you

927
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 3: are involved in these coalitional fights, are you worried that

928
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 3: a bad rollout here would embolden the Cato Institute, the

929
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 3: American Americans for Tax Reform, the Chamber of Commerce and

930
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 3: winning over the public's heart.

931
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 1: If this is not done correctly.

932
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 10: I don't worry so much about those sort of old

933
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 10: right groups, which which I just don't think are as

934
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 10: relevant anymore as they used to be. Just across the board,

935
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 10: I do worry a lot about the American people. I

936
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 10: do worry that if this is done poorly, if there

937
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,760
Speaker 10: are a lot of unnecessary costs imposed, if the point

938
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 10: of the policy hasn't communicated well, and then if you

939
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 10: don't do the kinds of things that actually generate the benefits,

940
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 10: then I think people will rightly look at it and say, well,

941
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 10: that didn't work, and the broader principles have the potential

942
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 10: to be discredited. So I do think getting this right

943
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 10: is obviously incredibly important, and you know that's something that

944
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 10: American Compass we were sort of ultimately focused on.

945
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 7: Right.

946
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 10: We're very happy to kind of go to the mat

947
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 10: defending these principles in the direction and at the exact

948
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 10: same time be totally honest about what we think is

949
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,720
Speaker 10: not structured correctly, what we think really puts the project

950
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 10: at risk, and hopefully that plays some small part in

951
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:40,280
Speaker 10: maybe moving us in a better direction.

952
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,760
Speaker 2: Orn Trump can always change. You could do something different tomorrow,

953
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:47,720
Speaker 2: you know, we could be having a completely different discussion

954
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:48,240
Speaker 2: next week.

955
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 6: God only knows.

956
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 2: But if these particular tariffs move forward and stay in

957
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:58,240
Speaker 2: place and are not matched with any commesorate industrial policy

958
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 2: or support for Americans who are in American businesses who

959
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 2: are going to be facing massive fallout over this, do

960
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 2: you think that these tariffs will do more harm than

961
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 2: good in your estimation?

962
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 10: I think I think the short term costs have the

963
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 10: potential to be pretty high.

964
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 7: You know.

965
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 10: I think one of the most important elements of this

966
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,760
Speaker 10: that that we've always put into anything we argue for

967
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 10: is that you want to see things phased in because

968
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:26,280
Speaker 10: the kind of transformation that we're talking about takes time,

969
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,240
Speaker 10: and so you certainly want things to be coming into effect,

970
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 10: you know, as quickly as possible to create incentives that

971
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 10: that people respond to. But it doesn't make a lot

972
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 10: of sense to impose a lot of costs faster than

973
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 10: people can respond. And so I think that's where we're

974
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 10: getting a lot of the unnecessary cost. And that on

975
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 10: the flip side, if and Congressman exactly right about this,

976
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 10: if you don't have the certainty in the permanence, you're

977
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 10: not going to get the investment and therefore you're not

978
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 10: going to get the benefit. And so that's that's what

979
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 10: I'm focused on, is there are costs here. I love

980
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,320
Speaker 10: that that we potentially have leaders communicating that we accept

981
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:00,800
Speaker 10: that there will be call us for things and we

982
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 10: think they're worth that. But you have to get that

983
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 10: equation right, and you have to take an approach that

984
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 10: keeps the cost as low as possible and that then

985
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 10: delivers the benefits. And that's what I think we have

986
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 10: to sharpen.

987
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,359
Speaker 1: All right, Congressman, last word to you one minute until

988
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 1: we got to go.

989
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 9: What do you say building things in America has always

990
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 9: been hard when after you are trying it In nineteen

991
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 9: thirty three is when he started, and he prepared the

992
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 9: country over a decade for then what was the industrialization

993
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:28,359
Speaker 9: in World War Two?

994
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 7: And I just think we've got to be honest with

995
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 7: the American.

996
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:35,360
Speaker 9: People that just having massive tax breaks and having the

997
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 9: tariffs isn't going to magically transform us into a manufacturing superpower.

998
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 9: What we need is an investment in the workforce. What

999
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 9: we need is to doing hard things.

1000
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 7: Like the chip sack.

1001
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 9: What we needed is better state capacity and being able

1002
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 9: to do things faster than we did during the Chipsack.

1003
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 9: What we did is federal financing, and it takes years

1004
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 9: to build, and this is not something that can just

1005
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 9: happen in one quarter. But I think what Trump is

1006
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 9: doing is appealing to this sense that we lost too

1007
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:08,720
Speaker 9: much to China. We need to build, but trying to

1008
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 9: tell people he can just magically wave a wand with

1009
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 9: tariff policy and tax policy and fix it. He can't,

1010
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 9: and he's making things worse with the blanket tariffs.

1011
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 1: Got it.

1012
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 3: Well, thank you both very much for joining us. I

1013
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 3: think people will get a lot out of it, so

1014
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 3: we appreciate it.

1015
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:23,879
Speaker 6: Thanks gentlemen, this was great.

1016
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, Thank you guys so much for watching.

1017
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:28,880
Speaker 3: We appreciate it. I hope you enjoyed our tariff special.

1018
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 3: We'll see you all tomorrow.