WEBVTT - Poor Things with Amanda Montell

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<v Speaker 1>Attention Bechdel Cast listeners.

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<v Speaker 2>We're going on tour, baby, and it's not just any tour.

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<v Speaker 2>It's the Shrek Tannic Tour. That's right. Shrek and or

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<v Speaker 2>Titanic are the movies recovering on this tour at the

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<v Speaker 2>demand of us, and you question mark, see you there,

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<v Speaker 2>We'll figure it out.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Our first leg of the tour is in London on

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<v Speaker 1>May twenty second. There are two shows that night, a

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<v Speaker 1>six point thirty show on Shrek and a nine o'clock

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<v Speaker 1>show on Titanic.

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<v Speaker 2>Next, on May twenty fourth, we are going to be

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<v Speaker 2>in Oxford as a part of the Saint Audio Podcast Festival.

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<v Speaker 1>Then we're scooting up to Edinburgh. On May twenty sixth

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<v Speaker 1>we are covering Shrek.

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<v Speaker 2>Then on May twenty eighth we are in Manchester once

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<v Speaker 2>again covering Titanic.

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<v Speaker 1>And finally a show that we recently added in Dublin

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<v Speaker 1>on May twenty ninth that is also a Titanic show.

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<v Speaker 2>We're so excited to meet everybody. We chose two of

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<v Speaker 2>our favorite movies so that we can celebrate the community

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<v Speaker 2>and just have a good time. So please come out.

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<v Speaker 2>You can get all of the tickets over at our

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<v Speaker 2>link Tree, which is in the description link Tree slash

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<v Speaker 2>Bechdel Cast, and we hope to see you there. We

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<v Speaker 2>have such ridiculous outfits, oh my gosh, and exclusive merch

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<v Speaker 2>and everything else.

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<v Speaker 1>So all right, we will see you there.

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<v Speaker 2>See you there.

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<v Speaker 4>On the Bechdel Cast, the questions asked if movies have

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<v Speaker 4>women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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<v Speaker 4>or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, Zeph and

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<v Speaker 4>Vast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

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<v Speaker 1>Gool Googga, I'm horny, Hi, Caitlin, Daddy, God, are you there.

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<v Speaker 1>It's me Bella Baxter.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, it's me. God. Let me rationalize why I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to be treating you this way for the whole movie.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh my god. When you entered with google Gaga, I thought,

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<v Speaker 3>since we had just done a sink that required us

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<v Speaker 3>to count to five, I thought you'd just like run

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<v Speaker 3>out of numbers, that you know, and started entering sounds.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh no, that was me starting the podcast.

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<v Speaker 3>Cool.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm so glad you said that, because this is actually

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<v Speaker 2>how we start every episode. We always start with a

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<v Speaker 2>goog go gaga. Oh, just to make everyone feel safe,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean Google Gaga is kind of one of the

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<v Speaker 2>great equalizers we still have. We've all been there.

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<v Speaker 3>True, that is so true. We all are just human

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<v Speaker 3>beings during the babbling stage.

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<v Speaker 2>It's true. I mean, what is a podcast if not

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<v Speaker 2>a whole bunch of Google Gaga. We are just in.

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<v Speaker 3>A prolonged babbling stage.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to the Bexel Cast. My name's Jamie Loftus.

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<v Speaker 1>My name is Caitlin Droonte. This is our show where

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<v Speaker 1>we examine movies through an intersectional FELM this lens, using

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<v Speaker 1>the Bechdel test as a jumping off point. I'm like

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<v Speaker 1>sort of over explaining what the Bechdel test is. I

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<v Speaker 1>feel like people can just look it up. I'm just tired.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, Caitlyn is taking no prisoners today.

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<v Speaker 1>Google Goga.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm tired Google Gaga. Look it up, read a book.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess this is an aggressive way to start the show.

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<v Speaker 2>There are like three hundred episodes, so if you don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>you can listen to the beginning of a different episode.

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<v Speaker 2>We're really eager to get today's episode started, is the thing. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and also we talk about the Bechdel test basically not

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<v Speaker 2>at all, sup.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, And there's so much else to talk about with

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<v Speaker 1>this movie, which is poor things. Yes, that we just

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<v Speaker 1>have to save all the time we can.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, cut the foreplay right.

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<v Speaker 2>The only quick disclaimer we want to give it the

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<v Speaker 2>top is that if you're listening to this, I feel

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<v Speaker 2>like when we cover a movie shortly after it comes out,

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<v Speaker 2>it always ages a little weird because it just came out.

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<v Speaker 2>So if you're listening to this, it just came out

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<v Speaker 2>recording it the day after Emma Stone won the Best

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<v Speaker 2>Actress Oscar. Chances are if you listen to this episode

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<v Speaker 2>a year from now, I at least will probably feel

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<v Speaker 2>different about this movie. Name yeah, probably so Yeah. If

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<v Speaker 2>you go back and listen to us talk about a

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<v Speaker 2>movie shortly after it comes out, usually our feelings change.

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<v Speaker 2>But we've decided today and two hours or less, we

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<v Speaker 2>are going to be the three people to crack this movie.

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<v Speaker 2>God damn it.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, our takes will age. I'm not gonna say

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<v Speaker 3>like a fine wine, and I'm not gonna say like milk.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm gonna say like a cheese cause, you know, like

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<v Speaker 3>a fresh guda. It tastes different than like a twenty

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<v Speaker 3>four month age guda. I don't know how long you

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<v Speaker 3>should age Gouda.

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, wow, a lot of knowledge.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so much fucking cheese knowledge. I do love Dary,

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<v Speaker 3>despite what my tummy tells me. But I do think that,

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<v Speaker 3>like you know, this is just like the fresh gooda

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<v Speaker 3>version of an opinion about poor things.

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<v Speaker 2>That's all I think. That's a beautiful way to put it. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>this is the Poor Things episode. Literally hundreds of you

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<v Speaker 2>have asked for this episode. Okay, here it is. Hope

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<v Speaker 2>you're happy.

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<v Speaker 3>You're really dumbing your listeners today.

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<v Speaker 2>I know, I don't know. I think it's when we

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<v Speaker 2>record more than one episode in a day, the second

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<v Speaker 2>episode gets like needlessly agro But you can say that

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<v Speaker 2>of this movie as well. Okay, we're covering poor Things.

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<v Speaker 2>It just came out and we have an incredible guest

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<v Speaker 2>to figure it out with us.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes we do. She is the author of Cultish and

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<v Speaker 1>the forthcoming book The Age of Magical Overthinking. She's the

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<v Speaker 1>host of the podcast sounds like a cult It's Amanda Montelho.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, welcome. Before we get into it, tell us a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit about the new book.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh gosh, that's so nice of you to ask. Okay,

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<v Speaker 3>it's called The Age of Magical Overthinking Notes on modern irrationality,

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<v Speaker 3>and it's about cognitive biases in the information age modern

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<v Speaker 3>day do Lulu. So every chapter of the book is

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<v Speaker 3>dedicated to a different cognitive bias. Confirmation bias, sunk cost fallacy.

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<v Speaker 3>These are some of the most famous, but there are

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<v Speaker 3>some other really interesting ones called like the Ikea effect

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<v Speaker 3>and the Halo effect. And I use each of these

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<v Speaker 3>as a lens to explore some mysterious irrationality plaguing the

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<v Speaker 3>zeitgeist and my own life, from celebrity warship to weaponized

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<v Speaker 3>nostalgia to Instagram manifestation Gurus, So check it out.

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<v Speaker 2>Amazing. That is so exciting. Huge fans of your work

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<v Speaker 2>Here on the pod, we simply are so excited that

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<v Speaker 2>you're doing the show.

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<v Speaker 3>H mutual fandom all around, Yippie Google, Gotga Goo Goga.

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<v Speaker 2>We're just like excited little babies. That's my favorite part.

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<v Speaker 2>I started going to yoga classes in the last year.

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<v Speaker 1>Whoe brag.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, not to flag, but almost every morning I like

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<v Speaker 2>go and then at the end of class you get

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<v Speaker 2>to be a little.

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<v Speaker 3>Baby, happy baby. I know that one.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you just get to roll around on your back

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<v Speaker 2>and goo goo gaga and some beautiful person teaching the

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<v Speaker 2>class comes and like moves your foot a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>and it's like a little horny, but you're like, whatever,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a baby. That's my poor things. Is beautiful yoga

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<v Speaker 2>teacher adjusting my foot while I'm a little baby. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>let's get into it, folks.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Amanda, what is your really? I mean, the movie

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<v Speaker 1>just came out. Did you see in theaters? Preliminary thoughts?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, I saw it under really iconic circumstances. I

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<v Speaker 3>was living in the woods and I watched it in

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<v Speaker 3>like the one room movie theater that they have in

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<v Speaker 3>this tiny Woodland town. They pour like the most generous

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<v Speaker 3>movie pores of wine I've ever seen in my life

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<v Speaker 3>at this tiny Woodland movie amazing. They were just like,

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<v Speaker 3>you know what, We're gonna even give you a little

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<v Speaker 3>extra because this film is wacky. Girlfriend.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean poor things, generous, poor.

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<v Speaker 2>Heavy, poor thing.

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<v Speaker 3>Hello, yeah, they poor things, they did, they poor things.

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<v Speaker 2>I love that system of like we'll give you as

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<v Speaker 2>much wine as the movie requires.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly. It was very that, which I appreciated so much.

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<v Speaker 3>And they also like provide blankets at that movie theater

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<v Speaker 3>so in case you got a little chilli, you can

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<v Speaker 3>cozy on up. So I was cozy as hell watching

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<v Speaker 3>this film and buzzed. And I went in with low

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<v Speaker 3>expectations just because like your Ghosts is a masturbatory fellow

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<v Speaker 3>and like I don't love masterbatory fellows h. So I

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<v Speaker 3>was going in with low expectations but high hopes a

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<v Speaker 3>good attitude. I also, like have a slight bias against

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<v Speaker 3>Emma Stone as an ongenu, which we can get into,

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<v Speaker 3>like I don't love her in an aure new role.

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<v Speaker 3>I like her as a character actor, and this was

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<v Speaker 3>kind of both. So I loved it. I mean, we'll

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<v Speaker 3>just I mean, this is the whole point of this podcast,

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<v Speaker 3>in this episode is to talk about it and get

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<v Speaker 3>into it. But I felt like I went in with

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<v Speaker 3>the right attitude to enjoy the film, and indeed I did.

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<v Speaker 1>Jamie, how about you.

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<v Speaker 2>I have seen this movie three times now. I saw

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<v Speaker 2>it right when it came out. I saw it in theaters,

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<v Speaker 2>and I don't know, I think that in part like

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<v Speaker 2>this was a movie where I saw it, I think

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<v Speaker 2>the week after it came out, and almost certainly the

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<v Speaker 2>discourse that I was avoiding still ended up coloring my

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<v Speaker 2>first viewing of the movie because I like your goes.

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<v Speaker 2>I haven't seen all of his work, but he has

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<v Speaker 2>hit or miss for me, and there's certain I think,

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<v Speaker 2>just in general, and we've talked about this on the

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<v Speaker 2>show for years at this point, there are a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of movies that I think are like technically good, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's always going to be hard for me to be

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<v Speaker 2>sold on work from a man adapted from another man's

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<v Speaker 2>work about a woman discovering and being liberated by her body,

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<v Speaker 2>Like it always just feels, even when it's really well done,

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<v Speaker 2>it's like hard to get me in the door for that.

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<v Speaker 2>That was like a big conversation we had around Carrie.

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<v Speaker 2>A movie I quite like, but it's like a man

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<v Speaker 2>adapted by a man viewed by a man, like you know, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it doesn't mean you can't get something good out of it,

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<v Speaker 2>but like I always come in a little bit leery

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<v Speaker 2>on it. And so the first time I saw it,

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<v Speaker 2>I left really conflicted, like conflicted leaning on not enjoying it.

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<v Speaker 2>And then the second time I watched it, I had

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<v Speaker 2>done some research on the author, I learned a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit more about the adaptation, and the second and third

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<v Speaker 2>viewings I'm liking it more and more each time, which

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<v Speaker 2>turns out I have a very complicated relationship with this movie.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that there's a lot that it's doing that's

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<v Speaker 2>really interesting, not all of it hits for me, And

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<v Speaker 2>then there's like Jerrod Carmichael's performers, there's just like, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know, I don't know. I'm hoping to figure out

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<v Speaker 2>how I feel about this movie today. I have thousands

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<v Speaker 2>of worts of notes, and I feel no. I know

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<v Speaker 2>that when I first saw it, I didn't like it,

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<v Speaker 2>but I felt that way about almost every Yorgo slanthemost

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<v Speaker 2>movie that I end up coming around on, except for

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<v Speaker 2>the Favorite, which I just liked every single time. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Actually, your story of your journey reminds me of the

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<v Speaker 3>most important piece of backstory that I failed to mention,

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<v Speaker 3>which is that I wasn't even gonna see the movie

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<v Speaker 3>because I felt already like it was so fucking proud

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<v Speaker 3>of itself, which irked me right. But then several people

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<v Speaker 3>who I know to varying degrees of well but since

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<v Speaker 3>computes independently texted me being like, Amanda, you must see

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<v Speaker 3>it because of the clothes, Oh, I mean yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>and everybody should see it because of the clothes. But

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<v Speaker 3>I mean it was like a perfect manifestation of what

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<v Speaker 3>I aspire to dress. Like I was shook by it,

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<v Speaker 3>And people who don't even know me very well, we're

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<v Speaker 3>texting me like, Amanda, this movie's clothes, it's you, it's you,

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<v Speaker 3>especially because like I'm recently engaged. I did the proposing,

0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:22.600
<v Speaker 3>which I always feel the need to Ooh, I love

0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:26.760
<v Speaker 3>that disclaim and I want to wear like a super

0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:30.960
<v Speaker 3>colorful surrealist look on.

0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:32.960
<v Speaker 2>My Gonnabella Baxter dress.

0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.720
<v Speaker 3>Like yeah, so people were like, watch the movie for

0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:41.520
<v Speaker 3>your bridal inspo basically, and not her bridle gown. The

0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:45.520
<v Speaker 3>rest of it, like the mini buttery yellow shorts and

0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:46.839
<v Speaker 3>the puffy.

0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:50.880
<v Speaker 2>Blue the blue dress nonsense, Yeah, unbelievable. I mean, yeah,

0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:54.600
<v Speaker 2>the technical elements of this movie I really love. Like

0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:58.480
<v Speaker 2>the movie is beautiful. Yorgos Anthemus knows how to make

0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:03.160
<v Speaker 2>a gorgeous movie. I don't know. I feel bad now

0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:05.080
<v Speaker 2>being like I didn't come in on this movie side

0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:07.280
<v Speaker 2>because I just get so I was talking about it

0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:09.959
<v Speaker 2>with my boyfriend afterwards, like I just get so irked

0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:15.000
<v Speaker 2>at going into a movie and having mostly male critics

0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:17.320
<v Speaker 2>say like this is the feminist movie of the year,

0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:19.360
<v Speaker 2>and it's like, well, how would you know that? And

0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:22.280
<v Speaker 2>then's made by like seven hundred men. I think what

0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:24.440
<v Speaker 2>I've come around on and this is something that I

0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.920
<v Speaker 2>feel like has not been super discussed, I guess with

0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:30.880
<v Speaker 2>this and with Barbie, because also this movie was existing

0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.199
<v Speaker 2>in conversation with Barbie, which I'm like, just let them

0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:36.720
<v Speaker 2>be separate movies. But a lot of the things I

0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.199
<v Speaker 2>had concerns about with this movie I was put more

0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:43.400
<v Speaker 2>at ease with upon learning that Emma Stone was an

0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:47.840
<v Speaker 2>executive producer on the movie, and so she was very

0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:51.040
<v Speaker 2>much in control of every high level decision, and that

0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:54.679
<v Speaker 2>made me feel better about a lot of stuff that

0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:59.200
<v Speaker 2>seemed to be an ongoing discourse, which we'll get around

0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:01.720
<v Speaker 2>to anyways. I think I like it. I don't know, Caitlin,

0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:04.600
<v Speaker 2>what's your history of this.

0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:07.920
<v Speaker 1>I also saw it when it came out in theaters

0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:10.720
<v Speaker 1>and maybe like a week after it opened, and then

0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:13.120
<v Speaker 1>watched it twice. To prefer this, I've also seen it

0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:16.640
<v Speaker 1>three times. I would say I think I like it

0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:18.800
<v Speaker 1>less and less every time I see it.

0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:21.560
<v Speaker 2>Wow, we all have different trajectories.

0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:25.800
<v Speaker 1>The things I like about it, I maintain liking about it.

0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:30.200
<v Speaker 1>For example, a lot of Bella's dialogue and the way

0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:34.240
<v Speaker 1>she speaks, and just kind of her general character arc

0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:38.280
<v Speaker 1>I enjoy. For the most part, there are certain scenes

0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:40.320
<v Speaker 1>that I think are really funny, Just like the shot

0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:44.520
<v Speaker 1>where it's a close up of Bella Baxter, a closeup

0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:47.880
<v Speaker 1>of Max mccandle's and then a close up of a

0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:50.560
<v Speaker 1>goat is the funniest thing I've seen in a movie

0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:53.600
<v Speaker 1>in a while. I think the movie is like very

0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:57.240
<v Speaker 1>well cast and well acted, Like, oh my gosh, Mark

0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:02.600
<v Speaker 1>Ruffalo's performance, Hello, I loved it. He's gifted around. Obviously

0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:07.000
<v Speaker 1>his character is despicable, but everyone's doing a great job acting.

0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:12.920
<v Speaker 1>The production design is interesting, the fish eye lenses, sure,

0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:17.760
<v Speaker 1>But generally I hate Yorgoslanthemos. I don't like these movies.

0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:18.960
<v Speaker 3>He's so polarizing.

0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:23.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Oh, Dog Tooth and The Lobster and a handful

0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.760
<v Speaker 1>of others. Generally I don't mind the Favorite, but like

0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:29.440
<v Speaker 1>a lot of his earlier work really upsets me. And

0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:35.120
<v Speaker 1>he has this fixation on showing cruelty to animals and

0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:37.080
<v Speaker 1>he does it and every single one of his movies.

0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:39.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I mean that is The Lobster that's the whole

0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:42.160
<v Speaker 2>movie of the Lobster. And then it also just appears

0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:44.840
<v Speaker 2>in all of his other movies, either as like a

0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:48.440
<v Speaker 2>joke or as just something that's there for no reason.

0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:51.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I can't stand it and it makes me hate.

0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:56.560
<v Speaker 3>It is very contrarian because I don't know if anyone

0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:59.640
<v Speaker 3>else received this as a literal piece of like creative advice.

0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:05.440
<v Speaker 3>But I remember a college writing instructor sort of problematically

0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:08.640
<v Speaker 3>announcing to the class that a way to make a

0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:10.920
<v Speaker 3>character and you're writing more likable was to have a

0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:12.560
<v Speaker 3>scene where they're nice to an animal.

0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:14.120
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god.

0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:16.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's the whole premise of the screenwriting books save

0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:17.400
<v Speaker 1>the Cat.

0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.920
<v Speaker 3>Oh okay, got it all right, So that's like conventional wisdom.

0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:23.600
<v Speaker 3>But I feel like your ghost this is a part

0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:27.000
<v Speaker 3>of what makes him frustrating and like masturbatory and all

0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:29.880
<v Speaker 3>of these things that irk us is that he's performing

0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:33.600
<v Speaker 3>so many stunts, and he's doing it with like extreme

0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:38.000
<v Speaker 3>pride in himself. Right, And I think the animal cruelty

0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:43.000
<v Speaker 3>as like a bit. It's very much like a little

0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:45.840
<v Speaker 3>kid who might grow up to be a sociopath setting

0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:47.800
<v Speaker 3>caterpillars on fire, but like make it.

0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:51.920
<v Speaker 2>She sid from toy Story Coded Behavior.

0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:52.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly.

0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:57.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, fortunately the animals are CGI And I do think

0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:02.080
<v Speaker 2>that the Freaky like at least like a narrative place

0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:04.080
<v Speaker 2>of why he's doing it in this movie, because yeah,

0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:07.359
<v Speaker 2>like when it's for no reason, it feels kind of

0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:11.160
<v Speaker 2>like self satisfied and edge Lordy, which I think edge Lordy, Yes,

0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:15.760
<v Speaker 2>a lot of his movies can feel anyways, like I

0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:17.800
<v Speaker 2>don't know, I almost like hesitate to say that because

0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:21.600
<v Speaker 2>I just know that that causes an avalanche of similar

0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:25.040
<v Speaker 2>people to be like no, but like it's just how

0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:28.920
<v Speaker 2>I feel. I don't know. Yeah, there's Caitlyn. I feel

0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:32.400
<v Speaker 2>like we've talked about this before, but it's now more

0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:37.359
<v Speaker 2>common for like male O two is to center women

0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:40.400
<v Speaker 2>in their work. I think this has been an increasing

0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:44.080
<v Speaker 2>trend of the last ten years. But there's like when

0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:47.199
<v Speaker 2>it's done in a certain way, it feels very like

0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:49.679
<v Speaker 2>you're saying me like very self satisfied and very like

0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:52.200
<v Speaker 2>well I get it, ladies, and it's like.

0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:57.639
<v Speaker 1>Self congratulatory, and it's just like let women make movies,

0:17:58.160 --> 0:17:58.919
<v Speaker 1>please and thank you.

0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I am put a little idiots that Emma

0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:05.480
<v Speaker 2>Stone had a huge creative voice in this.

0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:08.000
<v Speaker 3>You're right, that makes a difference. You know, if I

0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:11.280
<v Speaker 3>could make a prediction, I'd say that if I were

0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.600
<v Speaker 3>to see this movie thrice the way that you each have,

0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:19.639
<v Speaker 3>and forgive me for my underachievement, but I think I

0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:23.960
<v Speaker 3>would probably like it less. Well, I would like it

0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:26.359
<v Speaker 3>less in some ways and more in some ways. I

0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:29.359
<v Speaker 3>think I would like it more because like again, I

0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:32.280
<v Speaker 3>just want to keep seeing that fashion and like force

0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:36.919
<v Speaker 3>feeding it to myself, like fucking fashion foie gras. But

0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:40.440
<v Speaker 3>I think I would like it less because I would

0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:44.840
<v Speaker 3>start to like actually scrutinize it. Whereas when I saw it,

0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:49.159
<v Speaker 3>the element of surprise was really a factor for me

0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:51.639
<v Speaker 3>because I hadn't read much about it. I was just

0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:53.679
<v Speaker 3>like ugh, based on vibes, I don't want to go,

0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.639
<v Speaker 3>and so there was so much novelty, there was so

0:18:56.720 --> 0:19:00.119
<v Speaker 3>much surprise. Again, I was tipsy, I was letting it

0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:02.960
<v Speaker 3>wash over me. I was giggling. I mean, there are

0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:06.679
<v Speaker 3>some like really funny frames as you were mentioning, you know,

0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:09.840
<v Speaker 3>I like laughed so hard at certain points, like there's

0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:14.160
<v Speaker 3>this one just like very quick cut of Bella going

0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:17.439
<v Speaker 3>from like partying to like pasted out drunk in a corner.

0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:19.359
<v Speaker 3>That's just like the timing of it was so funny

0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:25.239
<v Speaker 3>and like those sort of like silly self unseerious moments

0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:28.480
<v Speaker 3>just like cued my little laughing machine and I was

0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.000
<v Speaker 3>just like Tee all the way through. But I think

0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:34.280
<v Speaker 3>if that element of surprise and the novelty were not

0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:38.040
<v Speaker 3>there anymore, I would actually start to apply my slow

0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:41.600
<v Speaker 3>thinking to the film, and in those ways, I would

0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:42.200
<v Speaker 3>like it less.

0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:45.040
<v Speaker 2>That's what we're here to do. Yeah, wreck it for you.

0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:48.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's what I'm starting to say that like the

0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:51.199
<v Speaker 1>things I like about the movie, I think I'll like

0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:53.800
<v Speaker 1>stay liking. But the things I don't like about it,

0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:55.480
<v Speaker 1>the more and more I see it, the.

0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:59.960
<v Speaker 2>More and more I'm really that excited by them. M Yeah.

0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:02.720
<v Speaker 2>Learn more about the production of this movie made me

0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:06.159
<v Speaker 2>feel both better and more ambivalent. But the thing that

0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:08.480
<v Speaker 2>I was yelling at my boyfriend on the phone about

0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:10.520
<v Speaker 2>when I was taking the bus back at like one

0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:14.920
<v Speaker 2>in the morning, after saying, this damn movie, Oh god, look,

0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:18.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm committed to seeing this movie for some reason. But

0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:22.359
<v Speaker 2>my favorite, Your Girl's Anathemist movie is probably the most

0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:26.040
<v Speaker 2>accessible of his the favorite. I really loved the favorite

0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:29.159
<v Speaker 2>and it's like the movie of his centers women that

0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:33.480
<v Speaker 2>tracks for me. I think the reason that may be

0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:35.960
<v Speaker 2>is because it is We talked about this when we

0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:39.040
<v Speaker 2>covered The Favorite. It's based on a story written by

0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:43.919
<v Speaker 2>a woman, Deborah Davis, and she adapted it with Tony McNamara.

0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:47.320
<v Speaker 2>This movie is based on source material by a man

0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:51.199
<v Speaker 2>and adapted by just Tony McNamara, which I think was

0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:52.080
<v Speaker 2>a mistake.

0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:56.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, no, Like, when I think about the gaze

0:20:56.960 --> 0:21:02.240
<v Speaker 3>of those two movies, it really manifests so clearly in

0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:07.080
<v Speaker 3>the film itself, because I feel like The Favorite is

0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:11.280
<v Speaker 3>a movie about women from at least somewhat of a

0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:15.840
<v Speaker 3>female gaze, and this movie feels like a movie about

0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:20.040
<v Speaker 3>a woman from a male gaze, with the female gaze

0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:23.040
<v Speaker 3>like trying so fucking hard to bust out, you know.

0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:27.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's weird. Yeah, it's weird. I'm excited to talk

0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:29.680
<v Speaker 2>about it, But first we should talk about what happens

0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:30.280
<v Speaker 2>in the movie.

0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:42.960
<v Speaker 1>After this break, yes, and we're back. I'll place a

0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:45.600
<v Speaker 1>content warning here at the top. Four.

0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:46.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:53.520
<v Speaker 1>Everything, there's suicide, there's sexual and domestic abuse that will

0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:56.240
<v Speaker 1>get brought up either in the recap and or the discussion.

0:21:56.680 --> 0:21:59.919
<v Speaker 1>There's a lot of stuff going on in this movie. Okay,

0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:04.720
<v Speaker 1>we are in Victorian era London. We see a woman

0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:09.200
<v Speaker 1>from behind who jumps off a bridge, presumably to die

0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:13.879
<v Speaker 1>by suicide. Then we meet Bella Baxter played by Emma

0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:19.040
<v Speaker 1>Stone google Goga. But then I'm also like, okay, Bella, Bello.

0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:24.560
<v Speaker 2>Bello minions exact exactly. We're back way back.

0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:28.640
<v Speaker 1>So Bella Baxter is acting like a baby. She's speaking

0:22:28.680 --> 0:22:34.040
<v Speaker 1>in gibberish, she's walking around erradically. She doesn't have motor skills.

0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:37.399
<v Speaker 1>She spits out her food, she pisses herself, et cetera.

0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:44.480
<v Speaker 1>Her caretaker slash father figure is doctor Godwin Baxter played

0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:49.960
<v Speaker 1>by Willem Dafoe, also called God. He is a surgeon

0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:53.320
<v Speaker 1>and professor at a medical school. He's like this kind

0:22:53.320 --> 0:22:57.600
<v Speaker 1>of doctor Frankenstein type of doctor where he seems to

0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:03.080
<v Speaker 1>have Frankenstein very animals together. There's like a dog's head

0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:05.439
<v Speaker 1>on a chicken body. There's a duck head on a

0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:10.359
<v Speaker 1>goat's body. Things like that. God asks one of his students,

0:23:10.680 --> 0:23:15.600
<v Speaker 1>Max mccandle's played by Ramy Yusuf, to assist him with

0:23:16.160 --> 0:23:21.440
<v Speaker 1>monitoring Bella's progress. God explains to Max that she had

0:23:21.480 --> 0:23:25.440
<v Speaker 1>suffered a brain injury and her mental age and physical

0:23:25.480 --> 0:23:27.960
<v Speaker 1>body are not synchronized, and that's why she's acting like

0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:33.320
<v Speaker 1>a baby. But she's progressing very rapidly, and Max is

0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:36.520
<v Speaker 1>enthusiastic about this project. He also thinks that Bella is

0:23:36.640 --> 0:23:37.280
<v Speaker 1>very pretty.

0:23:38.000 --> 0:23:40.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think even before Max is like I'm interested

0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:42.600
<v Speaker 2>in this project, he's like, Wow, she's hot and like

0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:44.520
<v Speaker 2>this is gonna go well.

0:23:44.359 --> 0:23:49.000
<v Speaker 1>Like, and then we see her progressing where her speech

0:23:49.080 --> 0:23:52.920
<v Speaker 1>and motor skills improve, but she's still acting very childlike

0:23:53.080 --> 0:23:57.200
<v Speaker 1>for a while. Bella asks God who she is, where

0:23:57.200 --> 0:24:00.600
<v Speaker 1>her parents are. He's like, oh, you're an orphan, and

0:24:01.280 --> 0:24:04.520
<v Speaker 1>we just generally see her be inquisitive and curious about

0:24:04.560 --> 0:24:08.639
<v Speaker 1>the world. She asks Max to teach her about different

0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:12.080
<v Speaker 1>places on the world map. She's never been outside and

0:24:12.119 --> 0:24:15.480
<v Speaker 1>she wants to go out and explore, so God reluctantly

0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:20.199
<v Speaker 1>takes her to the woods, but she wants to be

0:24:20.440 --> 0:24:23.760
<v Speaker 1>where the people are, and she starts acting out. She

0:24:23.920 --> 0:24:26.080
<v Speaker 1>wants to go into town and stuff, and he's like, no,

0:24:26.160 --> 0:24:30.359
<v Speaker 1>that's not possible, so he chloroforms her and Max is like,

0:24:30.400 --> 0:24:34.919
<v Speaker 1>what the fuck is going on? And Doctor God reveals

0:24:35.080 --> 0:24:39.520
<v Speaker 1>the truth that Bella had died. She was the woman

0:24:39.600 --> 0:24:42.280
<v Speaker 1>we saw jumping off the bridge at the beginning, and

0:24:42.320 --> 0:24:46.280
<v Speaker 1>she was also very gregnant at the time. Yes, heavy

0:24:46.280 --> 0:24:50.240
<v Speaker 1>with Greg, very heavy with Greg. So God took the

0:24:50.440 --> 0:24:54.720
<v Speaker 1>brain from the baby and surgically put it into Bella's

0:24:54.800 --> 0:24:58.280
<v Speaker 1>head and then reanimated her, which is why she's been

0:24:58.320 --> 0:24:59.919
<v Speaker 1>acting so baby like.

0:25:00.359 --> 0:25:02.679
<v Speaker 2>Now I have a quick question, and it is disgusting.

0:25:03.119 --> 0:25:05.639
<v Speaker 2>Uh huh, but they go out of their way to

0:25:05.680 --> 0:25:09.600
<v Speaker 2>be like a living baby, as you're like, So he

0:25:09.760 --> 0:25:14.120
<v Speaker 2>did canonically, instead of raising the baby, kill the baby

0:25:14.800 --> 0:25:18.000
<v Speaker 2>to steal its brain, right, Yeah, I think so.

0:25:18.359 --> 0:25:22.400
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Okay, So I'm now remembering that I actually hated

0:25:22.560 --> 0:25:25.160
<v Speaker 3>like the first fifteen minutes of the movie, the whole

0:25:25.200 --> 0:25:27.960
<v Speaker 3>first black and white bit. I was just like, here

0:25:28.040 --> 0:25:31.400
<v Speaker 3>we fucking go. And I had a negative reaction to

0:25:31.440 --> 0:25:34.920
<v Speaker 3>it in part because of my own conditioning. I am

0:25:34.920 --> 0:25:39.480
<v Speaker 3>the daughter of research scientists, like laboratory scientists, and I

0:25:39.560 --> 0:25:43.159
<v Speaker 3>grew up with a certain amount of disdain in the

0:25:43.200 --> 0:25:48.960
<v Speaker 3>household for the trope of the evil unethical scientist, because

0:25:49.000 --> 0:25:52.760
<v Speaker 3>my parents felt like it soiled the already sort of

0:25:52.880 --> 0:25:56.199
<v Speaker 3>fragile reputation of scientists in this culture, Like it's not

0:25:56.320 --> 0:25:58.960
<v Speaker 3>cool to be a scientist. It's not cool to be

0:25:59.040 --> 0:26:01.960
<v Speaker 3>smarter than everyone else else because that's suspicious, you know.

0:26:02.480 --> 0:26:07.800
<v Speaker 3>So like this trope of a scientist using his powers

0:26:07.800 --> 0:26:10.200
<v Speaker 3>for evil, it's just like not something that we actually

0:26:10.280 --> 0:26:15.000
<v Speaker 3>see in real life. And so when I was noticing

0:26:15.080 --> 0:26:18.080
<v Speaker 3>that in the beginning of the film, I was just like,

0:26:18.160 --> 0:26:22.719
<v Speaker 3>this is corny, this is damaging, this is cheap, and

0:26:22.760 --> 0:26:25.159
<v Speaker 3>it's in black and white. I thought there were colors

0:26:25.200 --> 0:26:26.040
<v Speaker 3>in this movie.

0:26:26.720 --> 0:26:30.479
<v Speaker 2>Wow, that is really interesting. Like that's something I'm aware of,

0:26:31.000 --> 0:26:33.679
<v Speaker 2>that sort of stock character and like to I don't know,

0:26:33.800 --> 0:26:36.000
<v Speaker 2>encourage like incuriosity and.

0:26:36.400 --> 0:26:39.359
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, like being smart as evil and like knowing things

0:26:39.400 --> 0:26:42.480
<v Speaker 3>that other people don't know, yeah, or don't want to know,

0:26:42.840 --> 0:26:45.960
<v Speaker 3>is evil. Like I actually do bump up against that

0:26:46.200 --> 0:26:47.879
<v Speaker 3>fair in large part because I was brought up to

0:26:48.000 --> 0:26:50.080
<v Speaker 3>but like, yeah, I didn't like that.

0:26:50.480 --> 0:26:55.560
<v Speaker 1>Well, I'll just point out that Bella Baxter is not

0:26:55.800 --> 0:27:01.119
<v Speaker 1>unlike Adam Frankenstein of I frankens Stein fame.

0:27:00.960 --> 0:27:05.080
<v Speaker 2>Our favorite bad movie. Yeah, it's true. Well, she can't

0:27:05.080 --> 0:27:08.439
<v Speaker 2>do nun Chuck's like Adam Frankenstein, which is actually my

0:27:08.520 --> 0:27:13.720
<v Speaker 2>biggest criticism of the movie. Exactly, there's no nun Chuck Sequins.

0:27:14.200 --> 0:27:17.480
<v Speaker 2>Where's the war of Demon's versus Gargoyles? I was sort

0:27:17.520 --> 0:27:18.879
<v Speaker 2>of waiting for that to start.

0:27:19.200 --> 0:27:19.480
<v Speaker 1>Shame.

0:27:20.440 --> 0:27:23.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. Ultimately I would would I rather watch

0:27:23.400 --> 0:27:27.520
<v Speaker 2>Ey Frankenstein than Four Things? Probably not, but like I

0:27:27.520 --> 0:27:30.240
<v Speaker 2>don't know. When friends are over, I'm turning on I

0:27:30.280 --> 0:27:34.240
<v Speaker 2>Frankenstein every time, absolutely, and that's misogynist of me.

0:27:34.440 --> 0:27:37.800
<v Speaker 3>Have either of you seen the film Franken Hooker?

0:27:38.359 --> 0:27:39.760
<v Speaker 2>No, No, what's that?

0:27:39.760 --> 0:27:41.840
<v Speaker 3>That's a really good, bad movie. That movie came out

0:27:41.880 --> 0:27:42.320
<v Speaker 3>and I want to.

0:27:42.320 --> 0:27:46.080
<v Speaker 2>Say ninety one perfect.

0:27:45.680 --> 0:27:49.280
<v Speaker 3>And I think you both would like it. It's really it's

0:27:49.320 --> 0:27:51.800
<v Speaker 3>so bad. It's good for sure, but it's about this

0:27:52.240 --> 0:27:56.879
<v Speaker 3>aspiring mad scientist whose girlfriend is tragically killed in a

0:27:56.960 --> 0:28:02.600
<v Speaker 3>lawnmower accident. So he goes yes, and he blows up

0:28:02.760 --> 0:28:07.080
<v Speaker 3>a bunch of sex workers and uses their parts to

0:28:07.280 --> 0:28:13.920
<v Speaker 3>assemble a new girlfriend. Holy shit, Okay, it's really camp.

0:28:14.160 --> 0:28:17.440
<v Speaker 3>It's really wacky. It's a pleasure to watch, and it's

0:28:17.440 --> 0:28:18.560
<v Speaker 3>like a tight ninety.

0:28:18.320 --> 0:28:20.000
<v Speaker 1>Oh wow, oh love that.

0:28:20.200 --> 0:28:23.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm looking at the just the poster. I'm like, yeah,

0:28:23.119 --> 0:28:24.960
<v Speaker 2>I would watch this. I would watch.

0:28:25.040 --> 0:28:28.600
<v Speaker 3>Okay, yeah, and the Franken Hunker in the film. It

0:28:28.720 --> 0:28:31.399
<v Speaker 3>has some things in common with Mella Maxter now that

0:28:31.480 --> 0:28:32.200
<v Speaker 3>I think about.

0:28:31.960 --> 0:28:33.880
<v Speaker 1>It, Okay, I'll watch it.

0:28:34.240 --> 0:28:36.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Bella Baxter is a part of a long legacy

0:28:36.440 --> 0:28:38.680
<v Speaker 2>of Frankenstein's.

0:28:37.800 --> 0:28:38.800
<v Speaker 3>Fucked up experiments.

0:28:38.880 --> 0:28:41.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, oh this is so I'm excited to talk

0:28:41.560 --> 0:28:43.920
<v Speaker 2>about the science angle of it. I haven't seen that

0:28:43.960 --> 0:28:46.600
<v Speaker 2>written about it all. All right, sorry, I'm true. Continue.

0:28:46.680 --> 0:28:50.680
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So we left off where God reveals to Max

0:28:50.960 --> 0:28:54.160
<v Speaker 1>what he actually did with Bella as far as like

0:28:54.240 --> 0:28:58.200
<v Speaker 1>surgically putting the baby brain into her adult body, and

0:28:58.480 --> 0:29:02.200
<v Speaker 1>Bella has no idea about any of that, and when

0:29:02.240 --> 0:29:07.200
<v Speaker 1>she wakes up after being chloroformed, she discovers masturbation and

0:29:07.280 --> 0:29:10.080
<v Speaker 1>she starts doing it all the time. But other characters

0:29:10.120 --> 0:29:12.760
<v Speaker 1>have to be like, no, in polite society, we do

0:29:12.880 --> 0:29:16.680
<v Speaker 1>not do that. And then God is like, hey, Max,

0:29:17.160 --> 0:29:21.760
<v Speaker 1>you should marry Bella, and He's like, yeah, great idea.

0:29:22.360 --> 0:29:27.960
<v Speaker 2>I love my baby girlfriend Gaga, and I'm the nice guy.

0:29:28.080 --> 0:29:29.880
<v Speaker 1>Somehow, and I'm actually nice.

0:29:30.080 --> 0:29:30.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:29:30.400 --> 0:29:34.320
<v Speaker 1>So Max asks Bella to marry him, but God has

0:29:34.400 --> 0:29:38.560
<v Speaker 1>some conditions, mainly that Max and Bella live at God's

0:29:38.560 --> 0:29:42.480
<v Speaker 1>house and always like be under his supervision, which would

0:29:42.600 --> 0:29:47.239
<v Speaker 1>essentially make Bella a prisoner, which she already is, and

0:29:47.280 --> 0:29:51.640
<v Speaker 1>then God hires a lawyer to write up a legal

0:29:51.800 --> 0:29:55.680
<v Speaker 1>agreement to this effect. The lawyer is Duncan Wedderburn played

0:29:55.680 --> 0:30:00.600
<v Speaker 1>by Mark Ruffalo, who immediately takes a liking to Bella

0:30:01.200 --> 0:30:05.560
<v Speaker 1>and he's very horny and he wants to free Bella

0:30:05.640 --> 0:30:09.400
<v Speaker 1>from this imprisonment, so he invites her to accompany him

0:30:09.400 --> 0:30:14.160
<v Speaker 1>to Lisbon, and she recognizes that Duncan is pretty sleazy,

0:30:14.280 --> 0:30:17.320
<v Speaker 1>but she wants to go and explore the world and

0:30:17.440 --> 0:30:21.760
<v Speaker 1>explore her blossoming sexuality. God is not happy about this,

0:30:21.960 --> 0:30:25.920
<v Speaker 1>nor is Max, but Bella goes on this trip nonetheless,

0:30:26.560 --> 0:30:31.440
<v Speaker 1>So she and Duncan arrive in Lisbon. He introduces her

0:30:31.480 --> 0:30:35.840
<v Speaker 1>to new food and sights and experiences, and they have

0:30:35.880 --> 0:30:36.760
<v Speaker 1>a lot of sexy.

0:30:37.040 --> 0:30:41.680
<v Speaker 2>She goes full hedonist in Lisbon, Yes, which is fun.

0:30:42.040 --> 0:30:45.760
<v Speaker 2>I feel like there's a lot made of the emphasis

0:30:45.800 --> 0:30:48.160
<v Speaker 2>on sex that this movie has. But she is truly

0:30:48.240 --> 0:30:53.320
<v Speaker 2>like pleasure chasing in every conceivable way, Like she's pleasure

0:30:53.400 --> 0:30:57.840
<v Speaker 2>chasing with clothes, with her body, with food, with everything,

0:30:58.000 --> 0:30:59.600
<v Speaker 2>and then eventually with books.

0:30:59.360 --> 0:31:01.400
<v Speaker 3>And thank god we're in color by now.

0:31:01.320 --> 0:31:05.200
<v Speaker 1>Yes, we're finally in color. It's true, so you know

0:31:05.360 --> 0:31:09.440
<v Speaker 1>they're traveling together, but they're soon getting on each other's nerves.

0:31:09.800 --> 0:31:14.040
<v Speaker 1>Duncan is annoyed by Bella's behavior and that it doesn't

0:31:14.240 --> 0:31:17.120
<v Speaker 1>line up with polite society, and he's annoyed that he

0:31:17.160 --> 0:31:21.760
<v Speaker 1>can't seem to like control her. He's getting jealous. Meanwhile,

0:31:21.800 --> 0:31:24.040
<v Speaker 1>Bella just wants to be able to go off and

0:31:24.120 --> 0:31:28.040
<v Speaker 1>explore and have adventures, and he's like trying to prevent

0:31:28.080 --> 0:31:30.600
<v Speaker 1>her from doing that. At some point in the trip,

0:31:30.960 --> 0:31:34.920
<v Speaker 1>a woman comes up to Bella being like, Victoria Blessington,

0:31:35.000 --> 0:31:37.800
<v Speaker 1>I haven't seen you in years, and Bella is like,

0:31:38.000 --> 0:31:41.000
<v Speaker 1>I don't know what you're talking about. I'm Bella Baxter,

0:31:41.760 --> 0:31:45.640
<v Speaker 1>which is gonna pay off later. Then Duncan, who is

0:31:45.680 --> 0:31:50.200
<v Speaker 1>becoming more and more possessive, abducts Bella by putting her

0:31:50.440 --> 0:31:52.680
<v Speaker 1>in a trunk and bringing her on a boat.

0:31:53.040 --> 0:31:54.959
<v Speaker 2>The only thing you can say for that is he

0:31:55.000 --> 0:31:57.480
<v Speaker 2>does ultimately admit that he did it, which is more

0:31:57.520 --> 0:31:59.760
<v Speaker 2>than most men who kidnap women in movies.

0:31:59.800 --> 0:32:01.720
<v Speaker 1>You do, that is true?

0:32:02.200 --> 0:32:05.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, how's that for a yard stick? Do we like

0:32:05.320 --> 0:32:07.520
<v Speaker 2>that yard stick? Oh?

0:32:07.560 --> 0:32:12.240
<v Speaker 1>The bar is so low. So she is understandably upset

0:32:12.320 --> 0:32:15.240
<v Speaker 1>by being abducted, but she makes the best of it,

0:32:15.400 --> 0:32:18.000
<v Speaker 1>I guess, and she makes a couple of friends on

0:32:18.080 --> 0:32:23.360
<v Speaker 1>the ship, Martha and Harry, which Duncan doesn't like, and

0:32:23.480 --> 0:32:26.080
<v Speaker 1>he's basically like Bella, you have to marry me or

0:32:26.120 --> 0:32:30.240
<v Speaker 1>I'll throw you overboard. And also Duncan doesn't like that

0:32:30.240 --> 0:32:33.959
<v Speaker 1>Bella is less interested in having sex with him, and

0:32:34.000 --> 0:32:37.000
<v Speaker 1>she has taken more of an interest in reading and

0:32:37.120 --> 0:32:41.640
<v Speaker 1>learning about different philosophies and expanding her mind. She's uncertain

0:32:41.720 --> 0:32:43.479
<v Speaker 1>how to view the world and the people in it.

0:32:43.920 --> 0:32:47.360
<v Speaker 1>She's talking to Harry about it and Martha, but Harry

0:32:47.560 --> 0:32:51.240
<v Speaker 1>is a cynic. He keeps saying that life and people

0:32:51.600 --> 0:32:54.720
<v Speaker 1>are cruel, and Bella doesn't want to believe it. But

0:32:54.800 --> 0:32:59.640
<v Speaker 1>when the ship docks in Alexandria, Harry shows her people

0:32:59.760 --> 0:33:03.600
<v Speaker 1>who who are living in poverty and who are suffering

0:33:03.640 --> 0:33:07.640
<v Speaker 1>and starving, and she's devastated and she feels compelled to

0:33:07.800 --> 0:33:11.240
<v Speaker 1>help them, so she takes all of Duncan's winnings from

0:33:11.760 --> 0:33:15.120
<v Speaker 1>him gambling at the casino and the ship, and she

0:33:15.280 --> 0:33:19.080
<v Speaker 1>tries to give them to the poor, but she unknowingly

0:33:19.440 --> 0:33:22.400
<v Speaker 1>gets swindled by a couple of sailors who take the money.

0:33:23.040 --> 0:33:27.040
<v Speaker 2>Whoops, the Cynic. Okay, the Cynic is my least favorite character,

0:33:27.120 --> 0:33:30.000
<v Speaker 2>and I love Girod Carmichael. Yeah, oh yeah, the Cynic

0:33:30.200 --> 0:33:32.320
<v Speaker 2>cracks me up because it feels like this is like

0:33:32.680 --> 0:33:36.840
<v Speaker 2>a pretty solid adaptation just from like translating from book

0:33:36.880 --> 0:33:39.720
<v Speaker 2>to movie. But the Cynic feels like such a booky

0:33:39.960 --> 0:33:45.360
<v Speaker 2>character that you're just like, oh my god, like, do

0:33:45.440 --> 0:33:47.920
<v Speaker 2>we have to call him the Cynic? Because it just

0:33:47.960 --> 0:33:51.200
<v Speaker 2>feels very no offense cal It feels very grad school

0:33:51.800 --> 0:33:53.600
<v Speaker 2>to have a character name the Sinnel.

0:33:53.640 --> 0:33:57.000
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, no, no offense taken. But thank you for mentioning.

0:33:57.280 --> 0:33:59.920
<v Speaker 1>You basically mentioned my master's degree in screenwriting.

0:34:00.400 --> 0:34:02.120
<v Speaker 2>I know you don't like to bring it out, but

0:34:02.240 --> 0:34:04.720
<v Speaker 2>I like to bring out that you And maybe I'm

0:34:04.760 --> 0:34:08.000
<v Speaker 2>just resentful because it's kind of beyond me what's going

0:34:08.120 --> 0:34:10.120
<v Speaker 2>on with the senec Yeah.

0:34:10.160 --> 0:34:13.560
<v Speaker 1>Sorry, you don't have a master's so you wouldn't really

0:34:13.560 --> 0:34:13.880
<v Speaker 1>get it.

0:34:14.120 --> 0:34:17.400
<v Speaker 3>I also famously do not have a master's degree, despite

0:34:17.400 --> 0:34:19.000
<v Speaker 3>the number of blazers I wear.

0:34:21.520 --> 0:34:24.879
<v Speaker 1>No But anyway, so either way, Duncan is furious that

0:34:25.000 --> 0:34:27.400
<v Speaker 1>Bella took his money and now they have no money,

0:34:27.760 --> 0:34:30.600
<v Speaker 1>and they wind up in Paris, and Bella tries to

0:34:30.880 --> 0:34:34.799
<v Speaker 1>procure a hotel room for them, and she approaches a

0:34:34.840 --> 0:34:39.440
<v Speaker 1>woman outside a hotel which turns out to be a brothel,

0:34:39.640 --> 0:34:44.280
<v Speaker 1>and the woman, Madam Swiney, played by Catherine Hunter, offers

0:34:44.360 --> 0:34:45.040
<v Speaker 1>Bella work.

0:34:45.360 --> 0:34:48.480
<v Speaker 2>I didn't realize at first until my second viewing that

0:34:49.200 --> 0:34:54.280
<v Speaker 2>Catherine Hunter plays the witches in the new Cohen Brothers Macbeth.

0:34:54.440 --> 0:34:55.600
<v Speaker 1>Oh, I didn't see that one.

0:34:55.840 --> 0:35:00.200
<v Speaker 2>It's really good. Yes, it's Denzel Washington Macbeth, and she

0:35:00.239 --> 0:35:03.560
<v Speaker 2>plays all three witches. And I only recognize her voice

0:35:03.600 --> 0:35:06.440
<v Speaker 2>because she is like shape shifting, like no one's business

0:35:06.440 --> 0:35:10.720
<v Speaker 2>in that. But would recommend she's so good it's wild.

0:35:10.880 --> 0:35:13.319
<v Speaker 1>Mm hmm. Yeah, I like her character a lot in

0:35:13.360 --> 0:35:13.640
<v Speaker 1>this way.

0:35:13.719 --> 0:35:14.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:35:14.800 --> 0:35:19.360
<v Speaker 1>Anyway, she offers Bella work, and so Bella has sex

0:35:19.400 --> 0:35:22.880
<v Speaker 1>with a man for money, and this makes Duncan furious

0:35:23.239 --> 0:35:27.040
<v Speaker 1>and he leaves to go back to London. Bella continues

0:35:27.120 --> 0:35:30.760
<v Speaker 1>doing sex work. She's repulsed by most of her clients,

0:35:30.840 --> 0:35:33.400
<v Speaker 1>but she also tries to make the best of that situation.

0:35:34.280 --> 0:35:39.239
<v Speaker 1>She befriends another woman at the brothel, Twinette. They eventually

0:35:39.320 --> 0:35:43.520
<v Speaker 1>develop a sexual slash romantic relationship.

0:35:43.680 --> 0:35:47.280
<v Speaker 2>I think it's important representation that she starts having sex

0:35:47.320 --> 0:35:50.320
<v Speaker 2>with the person who introduced her to socialism. I felt

0:35:50.320 --> 0:35:51.040
<v Speaker 2>seen by that.

0:35:52.680 --> 0:35:56.280
<v Speaker 1>I like that a lot you could resist. Also, Twinette

0:35:56.360 --> 0:36:00.960
<v Speaker 1>is played by Susie Bemba. One day, Bella here yelling

0:36:01.120 --> 0:36:04.920
<v Speaker 1>outside the brothel and it's Duncan, who never left, and

0:36:05.000 --> 0:36:07.000
<v Speaker 1>he's there to quote unquote save her.

0:36:07.560 --> 0:36:11.839
<v Speaker 2>He's literally a street car name desiring, which I foolishly

0:36:11.920 --> 0:36:14.560
<v Speaker 2>did not pick up until my third viewing, which is

0:36:14.560 --> 0:36:17.360
<v Speaker 2>brave of me to admit. But he's at the bottom

0:36:17.360 --> 0:36:19.400
<v Speaker 2>going balla.

0:36:18.680 --> 0:36:21.600
<v Speaker 1>Right because instead of saying Stella, he's saying Bella.

0:36:22.400 --> 0:36:25.680
<v Speaker 2>Wow. So for everyone else listening with three brain cells,

0:36:26.480 --> 0:36:27.440
<v Speaker 2>that was a reference.

0:36:27.640 --> 0:36:29.960
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, that was the movie. Poor I missed that one.

0:36:30.280 --> 0:36:32.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was yeah. I'm happy to blame it on

0:36:33.040 --> 0:36:35.040
<v Speaker 2>my previous movie, Porus. But in the third one, I

0:36:35.040 --> 0:36:39.840
<v Speaker 2>was like, oh, okay, okay, you're got seen another movie.

0:36:41.480 --> 0:36:44.160
<v Speaker 3>Chris has watched a movie other than his own. Whoaee.

0:36:45.719 --> 0:36:49.680
<v Speaker 1>So Duncan like wants to save her from this life

0:36:49.719 --> 0:36:53.920
<v Speaker 1>that she's living, and she's like, go home, you lose her.

0:36:54.480 --> 0:36:58.800
<v Speaker 1>We also are periodically cutting back to God and Max

0:36:58.960 --> 0:37:01.680
<v Speaker 1>in London and they are back on their bullshit because

0:37:01.760 --> 0:37:05.799
<v Speaker 1>they have made a new baby lady and named her Felicity,

0:37:06.239 --> 0:37:09.040
<v Speaker 1>played by Margaret Qualleyno.

0:37:08.239 --> 0:37:09.320
<v Speaker 3>They're raven haired hotty.

0:37:09.560 --> 0:37:12.520
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm, it's true. It's true. All the greats they

0:37:12.560 --> 0:37:14.560
<v Speaker 2>got the gen Z raven haired Hotti.

0:37:14.840 --> 0:37:16.000
<v Speaker 3>Is she properly gen Z?

0:37:16.320 --> 0:37:18.680
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I feel like she's gen Z marketed.

0:37:18.760 --> 0:37:19.440
<v Speaker 3>She's cuspy.

0:37:19.640 --> 0:37:19.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:37:20.120 --> 0:37:22.759
<v Speaker 1>I just found out that she's Andy McDonald's daughter because

0:37:22.760 --> 0:37:24.719
<v Speaker 1>I went to go see you drive Away Dolls, and

0:37:24.760 --> 0:37:26.160
<v Speaker 1>I was like, Oh.

0:37:25.800 --> 0:37:28.200
<v Speaker 3>The fact that they masked that well enough for you

0:37:28.280 --> 0:37:31.280
<v Speaker 3>to miss it reflects well on the like anti NEPO

0:37:31.280 --> 0:37:33.160
<v Speaker 3>baby sort of like pr campaign.

0:37:33.560 --> 0:37:37.040
<v Speaker 2>It is interesting that it's like NEPO baby Praxis that

0:37:37.080 --> 0:37:40.040
<v Speaker 2>appears to take the last name of the less famous parent.

0:37:40.320 --> 0:37:43.880
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, that's why I'm like, there are NEPO babies

0:37:43.880 --> 0:37:46.360
<v Speaker 2>where you're like, you know what, good for Jack Quaid,

0:37:46.480 --> 0:37:50.640
<v Speaker 2>although Dennis Quaid is somehow his less famous parent.

0:37:50.960 --> 0:37:52.080
<v Speaker 3>Wait, who's his mom?

0:37:52.640 --> 0:37:56.040
<v Speaker 2>Meg Ryan? Oh shit, but then his name would be

0:37:56.080 --> 0:37:57.520
<v Speaker 2>Jack Ryan and that would suck.

0:37:58.160 --> 0:38:01.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you know, not to get too far away from

0:38:01.520 --> 0:38:04.280
<v Speaker 3>the topic at hand, but I actually was in class

0:38:04.440 --> 0:38:07.160
<v Speaker 3>my freshman year of college with Jack Quaid in an

0:38:07.239 --> 0:38:08.280
<v Speaker 3>essay writing class.

0:38:08.400 --> 0:38:08.839
<v Speaker 1>I'm not God.

0:38:09.080 --> 0:38:12.799
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, we were paired once. Wow, I didn't know

0:38:12.800 --> 0:38:14.400
<v Speaker 3>who the fuck he was. I had no idea. It's

0:38:14.440 --> 0:38:16.200
<v Speaker 3>probably because his last name wasn't Ryan.

0:38:16.520 --> 0:38:19.080
<v Speaker 2>Now that I'm thinking about it, Jack Ryan would actually

0:38:19.120 --> 0:38:21.239
<v Speaker 2>like fly You under the Radar a little better. But

0:38:21.440 --> 0:38:23.840
<v Speaker 2>either way, Yeah, if you're a Nepa, you gotta have

0:38:23.920 --> 0:38:25.040
<v Speaker 2>the obvious last name.

0:38:25.600 --> 0:38:26.080
<v Speaker 3>You have to.

0:38:26.560 --> 0:38:28.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:38:28.040 --> 0:38:32.200
<v Speaker 1>Anyway, So God and Max make Felicity, presumably because they

0:38:32.200 --> 0:38:35.960
<v Speaker 1>were trying to fill some void when Bella left. Also,

0:38:36.000 --> 0:38:40.320
<v Speaker 1>we learn that God is dying and Bella receives a

0:38:40.400 --> 0:38:45.240
<v Speaker 1>letter about this, so she returns to London, and Bella

0:38:45.560 --> 0:38:50.040
<v Speaker 1>has noticed a C section scar, and so she asks

0:38:50.080 --> 0:38:54.000
<v Speaker 1>God about it, and he finally tells her that technically

0:38:54.480 --> 0:38:58.479
<v Speaker 1>she is her baby. She is both her own mother

0:38:58.640 --> 0:39:02.640
<v Speaker 1>and her own daughter. And she's like, what the fuck?

0:39:02.840 --> 0:39:04.480
<v Speaker 2>I hate that? That's like her the.

0:39:04.560 --> 0:39:08.440
<v Speaker 3>Talk I know, right, that's the birds and the bees Formellobaxer.

0:39:08.760 --> 0:39:10.719
<v Speaker 2>She figures out the birds and the bees on her

0:39:10.760 --> 0:39:12.640
<v Speaker 2>own like many of us, right.

0:39:12.960 --> 0:39:15.719
<v Speaker 3>I also like that, like I am my own baby.

0:39:15.960 --> 0:39:18.120
<v Speaker 3>Completely sounds like the name of a TLC special.

0:39:18.120 --> 0:39:25.080
<v Speaker 2>I would watch totally or just like a true life episode,

0:39:25.440 --> 0:39:28.959
<v Speaker 2>Like there's so many delicious, exploitative meeting.

0:39:29.040 --> 0:39:32.640
<v Speaker 3>I definitely watched a TLC special called I Am My

0:39:32.680 --> 0:39:35.640
<v Speaker 3>Own Twin, which brings me to another point that I

0:39:35.640 --> 0:39:40.240
<v Speaker 3>wanted to make, which is like, despite disdaining the evil

0:39:40.280 --> 0:39:43.719
<v Speaker 3>scientist trope, I love any scene that takes place in

0:39:43.760 --> 0:39:44.640
<v Speaker 3>an operating theater.

0:39:45.000 --> 0:39:47.960
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yes, I remember. I first learned of the

0:39:48.000 --> 0:39:52.360
<v Speaker 2>operating theater from a series of unfortunate events nice and

0:39:52.640 --> 0:39:55.680
<v Speaker 2>I was like, now they were onto something there. It's fun.

0:39:55.880 --> 0:39:57.919
<v Speaker 2>It's a perfect set piece.

0:39:58.120 --> 0:40:00.480
<v Speaker 3>So spooky and cinema.

0:40:00.560 --> 0:40:04.200
<v Speaker 2>I like that Bella thrives in the operating theater. How scary.

0:40:04.360 --> 0:40:06.759
<v Speaker 1>I love it. Yeah, because it's right around this point

0:40:06.760 --> 0:40:09.600
<v Speaker 1>of the movie where she says that she plans to

0:40:09.800 --> 0:40:15.120
<v Speaker 1>become a doctor, following in her daddy God's footsteps. Anyway,

0:40:15.360 --> 0:40:19.680
<v Speaker 1>so she confronts God ann Max about lying to her

0:40:20.080 --> 0:40:23.360
<v Speaker 1>and trapping her, and to God for creating her in

0:40:23.360 --> 0:40:27.399
<v Speaker 1>the first place, and they're all like whoopsies. But then

0:40:27.640 --> 0:40:32.600
<v Speaker 1>Bello goes forward with marrying Max, and during the wedding,

0:40:33.200 --> 0:40:38.480
<v Speaker 1>a man comes in and interrupts to be like Bello Victoria.

0:40:39.560 --> 0:40:43.080
<v Speaker 1>This man is her husband in her former life. His

0:40:43.200 --> 0:40:48.000
<v Speaker 1>name is General Alfred Blessington, and Duncan had helped the

0:40:48.080 --> 0:40:51.759
<v Speaker 1>General find Bella because Duncan is very bitter and he

0:40:51.840 --> 0:40:55.200
<v Speaker 1>thinks that Bella is a succubist from Hell and stuff

0:40:55.239 --> 0:40:55.560
<v Speaker 1>like that.

0:40:55.680 --> 0:40:59.239
<v Speaker 2>Now, if you think you've met Patriarchy, the guy in

0:40:59.280 --> 0:41:01.520
<v Speaker 2>this movie, you haven't, You haven't yet.

0:41:01.560 --> 0:41:05.520
<v Speaker 1>He shows up at the very end, but Bella is

0:41:05.640 --> 0:41:10.480
<v Speaker 1>intrigued by the General and wants to go with him,

0:41:10.719 --> 0:41:15.120
<v Speaker 1>so she returns to his estate, only to discover that

0:41:15.239 --> 0:41:19.799
<v Speaker 1>the General is horribly abusive and cruel, and apparently so

0:41:20.000 --> 0:41:23.879
<v Speaker 1>was she in her former life, and he wants to

0:41:24.120 --> 0:41:28.399
<v Speaker 1>hold her prisoner, and he threatens to shoot her if

0:41:28.440 --> 0:41:31.880
<v Speaker 1>she tries to leave, and he intends to have a

0:41:31.960 --> 0:41:36.720
<v Speaker 1>doctor remove her glitteris that night, so she fights back.

0:41:37.080 --> 0:41:40.600
<v Speaker 1>She manages to chloroform the General and shoot him in

0:41:40.640 --> 0:41:45.400
<v Speaker 1>the foot, and then Bella has Max perform surgery on

0:41:45.520 --> 0:41:50.440
<v Speaker 1>the General and it is revealed that the brain of

0:41:50.480 --> 0:41:54.520
<v Speaker 1>a goat was put into the General's head, and so

0:41:54.640 --> 0:41:57.320
<v Speaker 1>that's like the big cathartic end of this movie. Also,

0:41:57.480 --> 0:42:01.600
<v Speaker 1>God dies Antoinette comes to live with Bella and Max.

0:42:01.840 --> 0:42:05.279
<v Speaker 2>It's a very clean and good for her ending to

0:42:05.360 --> 0:42:08.360
<v Speaker 2>the movie that deviates significantly from the book.

0:42:08.680 --> 0:42:13.000
<v Speaker 1>Right, So that's the story, and let's take a quick

0:42:13.040 --> 0:42:25.920
<v Speaker 1>break and we'll come back to discuss. And we are back,

0:42:26.600 --> 0:42:30.440
<v Speaker 1>and where shall we start on this movie that will

0:42:30.920 --> 0:42:33.440
<v Speaker 1>break my brain? And there's so much to talk about.

0:42:34.160 --> 0:42:38.080
<v Speaker 2>Just a fun fact really quick. So Tony McNamara, he

0:42:38.160 --> 0:42:43.239
<v Speaker 2>also collaborated with mister Yorgos on The Favorite, but his

0:42:43.360 --> 0:42:46.200
<v Speaker 2>credit before this was a different Emma Stone vehicle. He

0:42:46.239 --> 0:42:50.160
<v Speaker 2>also wrote the screenplay to Cruella, so he also kind

0:42:50.239 --> 0:42:53.640
<v Speaker 2>of is now a specialist and good for her style.

0:42:53.880 --> 0:42:58.040
<v Speaker 2>Emma Stone movies of varying quality. So that's just a

0:42:58.080 --> 0:43:00.279
<v Speaker 2>fact about Tony. I don't know. Should we start with

0:43:00.440 --> 0:43:02.440
<v Speaker 2>talking about the source material a little bit?

0:43:03.239 --> 0:43:06.959
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, please educate me because I did not deep

0:43:07.000 --> 0:43:09.439
<v Speaker 3>dive into the source material and I'm so curious to know.

0:43:09.600 --> 0:43:12.840
<v Speaker 2>That's what we're here, fool. So yeah, this is based

0:43:13.000 --> 0:43:17.080
<v Speaker 2>on a nineteen ninety two novel by Alistair Gray.

0:43:17.520 --> 0:43:19.040
<v Speaker 3>Okay, ninety two birth year.

0:43:19.239 --> 0:43:21.879
<v Speaker 2>Yes, you're the monkey, solidareity?

0:43:21.880 --> 0:43:24.120
<v Speaker 1>Okay, young people.

0:43:25.160 --> 0:43:26.480
<v Speaker 2>Yes the youth.

0:43:26.960 --> 0:43:29.560
<v Speaker 3>I am my own baby Google.

0:43:30.040 --> 0:43:33.520
<v Speaker 2>Ultimately, we are all babies at the end of the day.

0:43:33.520 --> 0:43:37.319
<v Speaker 2>We're all baby. Honestly, I bravely had no idea who

0:43:37.320 --> 0:43:40.360
<v Speaker 2>Alistair Gray was. Turns out he's very famous. He is

0:43:40.400 --> 0:43:45.040
<v Speaker 2>a Scottish or was a Scottish writer. Who is I

0:43:45.080 --> 0:43:48.440
<v Speaker 2>don't know, a postmodern writer. That could mean anything. He

0:43:48.480 --> 0:43:52.880
<v Speaker 2>wrote weird speculative novels. He also did a lot of painting.

0:43:52.920 --> 0:43:56.400
<v Speaker 2>He was also a visual artist, very well loved, and

0:43:56.600 --> 0:43:59.959
<v Speaker 2>also in a way that the movie sort of skilled

0:44:00.280 --> 0:44:03.560
<v Speaker 2>back a little bit. Was also famously a socialist and

0:44:03.600 --> 0:44:07.439
<v Speaker 2>put socialist themes and ideas in basically all of his work.

0:44:08.200 --> 0:44:11.200
<v Speaker 2>So that's sort of the overarching what you need to

0:44:11.200 --> 0:44:13.480
<v Speaker 2>know about him. He passed away in twenty nineteen, but

0:44:13.880 --> 0:44:19.480
<v Speaker 2>met Yurgoslanthemo's and like had his blessing to make this movie.

0:44:19.520 --> 0:44:22.240
<v Speaker 2>I don't think he ended up seeing the script before

0:44:22.280 --> 0:44:25.799
<v Speaker 2>he passed, but I do always kind of like that

0:44:25.840 --> 0:44:28.120
<v Speaker 2>when it's possible to happen, when there is like a

0:44:28.239 --> 0:44:35.080
<v Speaker 2>nice two writers usually men hanging out love that, so

0:44:36.320 --> 0:44:39.080
<v Speaker 2>you know yourgo's got the blessing and when ahead to

0:44:39.080 --> 0:44:42.359
<v Speaker 2>make the movie. The main difference is in Kitlyn. Please

0:44:42.440 --> 0:44:44.880
<v Speaker 2>let me know if I missed anything. Ooh, okay, yeah,

0:44:44.920 --> 0:44:47.880
<v Speaker 2>I have the book on my Libby app. Wow, for

0:44:47.920 --> 0:44:51.200
<v Speaker 2>all you libby heads out there, I have it, but

0:44:51.320 --> 0:44:52.480
<v Speaker 2>I have not read it yet.

0:44:52.800 --> 0:44:56.720
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's because we don't read books on this podcast famously.

0:44:56.640 --> 0:44:59.920
<v Speaker 2>I know, but then I'm trying. I'm trying.

0:45:00.040 --> 0:45:02.040
<v Speaker 1>You're trying to read books, Jamie, what the heck?

0:45:02.640 --> 0:45:05.719
<v Speaker 2>And even though people seem to like, the general consensus

0:45:05.960 --> 0:45:08.719
<v Speaker 2>is this movie is good, but also general consensus is

0:45:08.760 --> 0:45:12.000
<v Speaker 2>the book is better. Differences between the book and the

0:45:12.040 --> 0:45:16.160
<v Speaker 2>movie include that all of the book takes place in

0:45:16.520 --> 0:45:22.880
<v Speaker 2>Scotland and Glasgow specifically, this has changed to London. I

0:45:22.920 --> 0:45:26.880
<v Speaker 2>don't really know why. The book is far more overtly socialist,

0:45:27.000 --> 0:45:29.880
<v Speaker 2>which I kind of alluded to. I'm pulling from a

0:45:29.920 --> 0:45:33.680
<v Speaker 2>piece from Polygon that sort of breaks this down. That

0:45:33.840 --> 0:45:35.839
<v Speaker 2>Bella which we see it in the movie. We see

0:45:36.239 --> 0:45:40.400
<v Speaker 2>Bella's political awakening when she goes to Alexandria and basically

0:45:40.520 --> 0:45:47.640
<v Speaker 2>just witnesses capitalism. I don't like the visual choices made here.

0:45:47.760 --> 0:45:52.200
<v Speaker 2>I think it really leans into some like savage tropes

0:45:52.239 --> 0:45:55.000
<v Speaker 2>that like really don't sit well with me. Agreed. In

0:45:55.040 --> 0:45:59.080
<v Speaker 2>the book, Bella talks to people and that scene is

0:45:59.200 --> 0:46:02.279
<v Speaker 2>far longer. Is it better? I don't know I haven't

0:46:02.320 --> 0:46:04.759
<v Speaker 2>read it, but you know, what is basically reduced to

0:46:04.800 --> 0:46:08.120
<v Speaker 2>a shot for the movie is a whole sequence in

0:46:08.200 --> 0:46:11.080
<v Speaker 2>the book, and so it is clearer. Even though I

0:46:11.120 --> 0:46:13.239
<v Speaker 2>think it is clear in the movie that like Bella's

0:46:13.440 --> 0:46:18.440
<v Speaker 2>political awakening becomes increasingly important as the movie goes on,

0:46:19.200 --> 0:46:22.640
<v Speaker 2>it's far more explicit and specific in the book, and

0:46:22.640 --> 0:46:27.880
<v Speaker 2>that sequence in Alexandria is far longer. Lanthamus gave an

0:46:27.960 --> 0:46:31.560
<v Speaker 2>interview to Polygon and was asked about this and said

0:46:32.160 --> 0:46:35.680
<v Speaker 2>the following quote, I didn't find that it could be

0:46:35.719 --> 0:46:37.880
<v Speaker 2>as much a part of the film we were making,

0:46:37.920 --> 0:46:40.800
<v Speaker 2>which is following her story, that story about a woman,

0:46:41.160 --> 0:46:44.480
<v Speaker 2>which is a much more universal thing than political awakening.

0:46:44.560 --> 0:46:47.759
<v Speaker 2>I disagree, but anyways, he says, the book is also

0:46:47.800 --> 0:46:50.080
<v Speaker 2>a huge essay about a lot of political things, and

0:46:50.200 --> 0:46:52.360
<v Speaker 2>especially about Scotland and its relationship with the rest of

0:46:52.400 --> 0:46:54.680
<v Speaker 2>the world, and so yes, that aspect couldn't be an

0:46:54.680 --> 0:46:57.560
<v Speaker 2>equal part in the film, which does make more sense

0:46:57.600 --> 0:46:59.960
<v Speaker 2>to me. I don't know. I feel like every Russian

0:47:00.080 --> 0:47:03.719
<v Speaker 2>novel includes three hundred pages about like agrarian law of

0:47:03.800 --> 0:47:06.520
<v Speaker 2>that decade, and you're like, yeah, I don't want to

0:47:06.560 --> 0:47:11.719
<v Speaker 2>see that. In any case, the final large change is

0:47:11.840 --> 0:47:16.399
<v Speaker 2>the ending, which instead of the kind of the ending

0:47:16.480 --> 0:47:18.640
<v Speaker 2>to this movie is so weird to me where it's like,

0:47:18.880 --> 0:47:22.120
<v Speaker 2>I'm not upset that she, you know, fox over her

0:47:22.200 --> 0:47:26.880
<v Speaker 2>former husband great, but this whole very complex, weird movie

0:47:26.920 --> 0:47:30.520
<v Speaker 2>coming down to like a wine glass clink like dun Dunn.

0:47:31.360 --> 0:47:34.760
<v Speaker 2>Like I didn't really love it. Yeah, it just felt

0:47:34.800 --> 0:47:38.520
<v Speaker 2>like very neat and it's because it's not the end.

0:47:39.200 --> 0:47:42.279
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. No, it was very much like a nineties rom

0:47:42.320 --> 0:47:44.640
<v Speaker 3>com based on a Shakespearean play kind of ending.

0:47:44.640 --> 0:47:47.880
<v Speaker 2>It felt like fried green Tomatoes, Like it just felt

0:47:47.920 --> 0:47:51.000
<v Speaker 2>like from a different movie. I don't know. I'm just

0:47:51.000 --> 0:47:54.360
<v Speaker 2>gonna read directly from this polygon piece here and I

0:47:54.400 --> 0:47:57.960
<v Speaker 2>want to shut out. It is written by Oly Welsh.

0:47:58.200 --> 0:48:00.200
<v Speaker 2>We'll link to it in the description of the episode

0:48:00.719 --> 0:48:03.400
<v Speaker 2>through its extended code and framing devices. The book presents

0:48:03.440 --> 0:48:06.320
<v Speaker 2>a much more ambivalent account of the rest of Bella's life.

0:48:06.680 --> 0:48:10.439
<v Speaker 2>She and Archibald I guess he's not Max mccandle's put

0:48:10.480 --> 0:48:12.840
<v Speaker 2>their medical skills to better use in the book, serving

0:48:12.840 --> 0:48:15.320
<v Speaker 2>the people of Glasgow with a women's clinic and a

0:48:15.360 --> 0:48:20.040
<v Speaker 2>public health initiative, but mccandal's is ineffectual and Bella's socialist

0:48:20.040 --> 0:48:23.799
<v Speaker 2>ideals are eventually thwarted by political reality. She's last seen

0:48:23.840 --> 0:48:26.560
<v Speaker 2>as an eccentric old woman whose only patients are dogs.

0:48:26.760 --> 0:48:29.880
<v Speaker 2>It's a much sadder but arguably a less bitter one.

0:48:30.960 --> 0:48:36.640
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, very very different ending, which I kind of think.

0:48:36.680 --> 0:48:41.959
<v Speaker 2>I prefer the book to the kind of prescriptive movie ending.

0:48:42.640 --> 0:48:44.400
<v Speaker 2>So that's adaptation stuff.

0:48:44.480 --> 0:48:47.120
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I have a couple additional things. I also saw

0:48:47.160 --> 0:48:52.480
<v Speaker 1>the polygon piece. These are a few examples of differences

0:48:52.520 --> 0:48:55.560
<v Speaker 1>between the book and the movie from a people dot

0:48:55.600 --> 0:48:56.920
<v Speaker 1>Com piece.

0:48:57.400 --> 0:49:00.080
<v Speaker 3>Wow, yeah, watch out.

0:49:00.280 --> 0:49:01.760
<v Speaker 2>That's the grad school bump.

0:49:02.000 --> 0:49:04.360
<v Speaker 3>Okay, masters great, exactly know.

0:49:05.680 --> 0:49:08.799
<v Speaker 1>I only find the best sources, so this one is

0:49:08.840 --> 0:49:12.040
<v Speaker 1>called poor things. The biggest differences between the book and

0:49:12.200 --> 0:49:16.840
<v Speaker 1>the Emma Stone movie iconic Wow, Okay, such things as

0:49:16.920 --> 0:49:21.040
<v Speaker 1>the wedding plays out a little differently. The novel includes

0:49:21.200 --> 0:49:25.840
<v Speaker 1>a variety of characters who don't make it into the movies,

0:49:25.880 --> 0:49:30.480
<v Speaker 1>such as an American professor named doctor Hooker. I don't

0:49:30.520 --> 0:49:33.920
<v Speaker 1>know exactly where Bella meets him on her travels, but

0:49:34.200 --> 0:49:37.560
<v Speaker 1>there's this American professor guy. We also meet her father,

0:49:38.080 --> 0:49:42.360
<v Speaker 1>or rather like Victoria Blessington's father. I think he shows

0:49:42.440 --> 0:49:45.440
<v Speaker 1>up in the wedding scene, stuff like that. The movie

0:49:45.480 --> 0:49:49.719
<v Speaker 1>eliminates those characters, but it adds the character of Felicity,

0:49:50.000 --> 0:49:55.400
<v Speaker 1>the woman who god in Max like Frankenstein together while

0:49:55.640 --> 0:49:59.480
<v Speaker 1>Bella is traveling. So there are those examples, and then

0:50:00.160 --> 0:50:04.000
<v Speaker 1>the novel is structured in such a way where it's

0:50:04.120 --> 0:50:08.680
<v Speaker 1>like letters the memoir from the Max character, right from

0:50:08.719 --> 0:50:11.759
<v Speaker 1>the Max character. Yeah, and he's like talking about his

0:50:11.800 --> 0:50:16.080
<v Speaker 1>friendship with the scientist Godwin Baxter and his creation Bella.

0:50:16.200 --> 0:50:18.560
<v Speaker 1>So it's like more from his point of view, whereas

0:50:18.719 --> 0:50:23.880
<v Speaker 1>the movie largely focuses on Bella and her point of

0:50:23.960 --> 0:50:26.200
<v Speaker 1>view and her view of the world and things like.

0:50:26.160 --> 0:50:29.360
<v Speaker 2>That works for me, right. I also feel like historically,

0:50:29.520 --> 0:50:35.240
<v Speaker 2>like unreliable narrator novels are not usually well adapted. I'm like, yeah,

0:50:35.360 --> 0:50:36.760
<v Speaker 2>just give us a streamlined version.

0:50:36.920 --> 0:50:37.920
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yes, indeed.

0:50:38.080 --> 0:50:42.360
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, that's the book versus the movie. So let's

0:50:42.360 --> 0:50:46.120
<v Speaker 2>get into the movie, Amanda. Is there anything that stands

0:50:46.160 --> 0:50:48.279
<v Speaker 2>out to you that you want to get into right away?

0:50:48.800 --> 0:50:53.640
<v Speaker 3>Oh gosh, I mean, like, something that I thought was

0:50:53.840 --> 0:50:59.000
<v Speaker 3>very unique about this movie, and that was just like

0:50:59.280 --> 0:51:06.120
<v Speaker 3>candy for me personally, was the evolution of Bella's language skills.

0:51:06.640 --> 0:51:11.120
<v Speaker 3>And her idiolect, as it's called, her very unique and

0:51:11.200 --> 0:51:16.240
<v Speaker 3>personal way of speaking. I don't think I'd ever seen

0:51:17.120 --> 0:51:23.680
<v Speaker 3>like a real time representation of someone's like totally wacky

0:51:24.320 --> 0:51:29.480
<v Speaker 3>mastery of the English language, from googo gaga to you know,

0:51:29.640 --> 0:51:36.520
<v Speaker 3>like multi polysyllabic words. But I was like thoroughly entertained

0:51:36.600 --> 0:51:39.480
<v Speaker 3>by the way that she spoke. And I think, Caitlin

0:51:39.600 --> 0:51:42.480
<v Speaker 3>you mentioned that being a highlight for you as well,

0:51:43.080 --> 0:51:48.640
<v Speaker 3>because I could just really relate as an extremely like

0:51:48.840 --> 0:51:54.360
<v Speaker 3>verbose lover of ten dollars words for no actual reason.

0:51:55.200 --> 0:51:59.279
<v Speaker 3>I loved how quickly she went from actual goo goo

0:51:59.360 --> 0:52:04.080
<v Speaker 3>gaga bella hungry too. I mean, I don't have like

0:52:04.320 --> 0:52:07.200
<v Speaker 3>one of her lines memorized and at the ready, but.

0:52:07.520 --> 0:52:10.600
<v Speaker 2>But she's like quoting like political theory.

0:52:10.800 --> 0:52:14.120
<v Speaker 1>It has a master's degree basically, she does. Yeah, she

0:52:14.200 --> 0:52:15.040
<v Speaker 1>has a PhD.

0:52:15.160 --> 0:52:17.880
<v Speaker 3>Even, But the way that she talks is like so

0:52:18.400 --> 0:52:22.880
<v Speaker 3>authentic to her, like it's so bananas. No one talks

0:52:23.000 --> 0:52:25.279
<v Speaker 3>like that. No one that she meets talks like that,

0:52:25.920 --> 0:52:28.960
<v Speaker 3>you know, like nobody in her world talks like that.

0:52:29.480 --> 0:52:34.520
<v Speaker 3>And I thought that and her style were like true

0:52:34.640 --> 0:52:38.960
<v Speaker 3>individuality to me, and I really I felt very seen

0:52:39.080 --> 0:52:42.200
<v Speaker 3>by it because like, I feel like I talk funny.

0:52:42.400 --> 0:52:45.120
<v Speaker 3>My word choices are funny. That's pointed out to me

0:52:45.160 --> 0:52:48.040
<v Speaker 3>from time to time. So I felt like the representation

0:52:48.200 --> 0:52:53.560
<v Speaker 3>for like girlies who talk funny, it was like really appreciated.

0:52:53.920 --> 0:52:57.480
<v Speaker 2>Even though I said earlier that I was like frustrated

0:52:57.480 --> 0:53:00.879
<v Speaker 2>by the comparisons between Four Things and Barbie, I did

0:53:01.160 --> 0:53:03.879
<v Speaker 2>enjoy it. Someone like was like poor Things is sort

0:53:03.880 --> 0:53:07.960
<v Speaker 2>of like if weird. Barbie had her whole movie that

0:53:08.080 --> 0:53:11.719
<v Speaker 2>happened in the Victorian era, and I was like, yeah,

0:53:11.760 --> 0:53:15.000
<v Speaker 2>I kind of see it. I mean, Emma Stone won

0:53:15.239 --> 0:53:18.680
<v Speaker 2>the Best Actress Oscar yesterday at the time we were

0:53:18.680 --> 0:53:22.480
<v Speaker 2>recording this, and it is like an incredible performance, Like

0:53:22.560 --> 0:53:26.239
<v Speaker 2>she's she like really goes for it. Her performance is

0:53:26.280 --> 0:53:29.319
<v Speaker 2>so good, and I like that they give her the

0:53:29.360 --> 0:53:31.280
<v Speaker 2>space to kind of cook.

0:53:31.840 --> 0:53:35.040
<v Speaker 1>And I mean, not to be bitchy, but Lily Gladstone

0:53:35.080 --> 0:53:35.640
<v Speaker 1>should have won.

0:53:35.800 --> 0:53:38.080
<v Speaker 2>But I mean sure, I mean no, I mean I

0:53:38.120 --> 0:53:40.120
<v Speaker 2>think everyone agrees that, remember.

0:53:39.920 --> 0:53:41.400
<v Speaker 1>But I know what you're saying, like she gives an

0:53:41.440 --> 0:53:42.320
<v Speaker 1>excellent performance.

0:53:42.680 --> 0:53:46.640
<v Speaker 2>I think they're both incredible performances and very different performances.

0:53:46.880 --> 0:53:49.319
<v Speaker 2>And for sure, the oscars are racist and it's not

0:53:49.360 --> 0:53:52.880
<v Speaker 2>a meritocracy. Yeah yeah, yeah, but it's a great performance

0:53:52.880 --> 0:53:55.600
<v Speaker 2>for Mamma Stone. I like that. I mean, I'm glad

0:53:55.640 --> 0:53:58.239
<v Speaker 2>to hear that you like as someone with a background

0:53:58.400 --> 0:54:01.080
<v Speaker 2>in linguistics, like that you you like it.

0:54:01.160 --> 0:54:02.040
<v Speaker 3>I loved it.

0:54:02.040 --> 0:54:04.880
<v Speaker 2>It's cool and it does still feel like particular to

0:54:06.040 --> 0:54:09.200
<v Speaker 2>that character. One of the things that I liked about

0:54:09.239 --> 0:54:12.400
<v Speaker 2>the movie because I do feel like the criticisms around

0:54:12.560 --> 0:54:16.399
<v Speaker 2>the emphasis and some people have like said over emphasis

0:54:16.440 --> 0:54:22.400
<v Speaker 2>on sex with men as a way of understanding yourself,

0:54:22.480 --> 0:54:26.759
<v Speaker 2>Like I understand why those are. I feel like that

0:54:26.840 --> 0:54:28.640
<v Speaker 2>has a lot more to do with the visual choices

0:54:28.680 --> 0:54:31.920
<v Speaker 2>in the movie than the story itself because for me,

0:54:32.280 --> 0:54:37.560
<v Speaker 2>at a story level, like she is growing constantly at

0:54:37.560 --> 0:54:39.920
<v Speaker 2>a rate that makes sense, and so much of the

0:54:40.000 --> 0:54:43.520
<v Speaker 2>story or like where we end up is influenced by

0:54:43.640 --> 0:54:47.080
<v Speaker 2>like like you do when you're coming of age, where

0:54:47.080 --> 0:54:50.040
<v Speaker 2>you're like trying to understand your body. You're trying to understand,

0:54:50.080 --> 0:54:52.960
<v Speaker 2>like what are the rules? I think, like the big

0:54:53.000 --> 0:54:55.000
<v Speaker 2>thing we come up against is that the thing that

0:54:55.360 --> 0:55:01.160
<v Speaker 2>is gross and unavoidable in this story is that she

0:55:01.560 --> 0:55:04.240
<v Speaker 2>has a baby brain and a grown woman's body, which

0:55:04.960 --> 0:55:08.440
<v Speaker 2>comes up against a version of a trope we've discussed

0:55:08.440 --> 0:55:11.160
<v Speaker 2>a million times, like the Born Sexy Yesterday, which is

0:55:11.200 --> 0:55:15.480
<v Speaker 2>been around forever. But I do think that Bella is

0:55:16.440 --> 0:55:19.880
<v Speaker 2>an interesting variant of this trope because I feel like

0:55:19.960 --> 0:55:24.080
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the baby lady tropes that we get

0:55:24.600 --> 0:55:30.920
<v Speaker 2>are still somehow intuiting, the make yourself smaller rules and

0:55:31.000 --> 0:55:34.600
<v Speaker 2>defer to men rules that exist within society that takes

0:55:34.680 --> 0:55:37.160
<v Speaker 2>years of conditioning to sort of soak in for a

0:55:37.160 --> 0:55:41.160
<v Speaker 2>lot of people. But Bella is fully a blank canvas

0:55:41.360 --> 0:55:44.480
<v Speaker 2>and like if a social norm doesn't make sense to

0:55:44.480 --> 0:55:48.120
<v Speaker 2>where she says it and does not abide by it,

0:55:48.200 --> 0:55:52.040
<v Speaker 2>and I feel like that is far rarer and it

0:55:52.160 --> 0:55:55.359
<v Speaker 2>almost like like challenged how I understood that stock character

0:55:55.400 --> 0:55:58.680
<v Speaker 2>because you're like, it's not a baby lady really, because

0:55:58.719 --> 0:56:03.319
<v Speaker 2>babies say what's on their mind, and those characters very

0:56:03.400 --> 0:56:05.600
<v Speaker 2>rarely say what's on their mind, or if they do,

0:56:05.800 --> 0:56:08.040
<v Speaker 2>it is like in a very particular way that is

0:56:08.080 --> 0:56:11.239
<v Speaker 2>still deferential to the man that is teaching them what

0:56:11.400 --> 0:56:14.440
<v Speaker 2>the world is. So I do feel like she is

0:56:15.239 --> 0:56:17.080
<v Speaker 2>different in that way.

0:56:17.440 --> 0:56:20.720
<v Speaker 1>Yes, your cat has arrived into the chat.

0:56:20.960 --> 0:56:23.640
<v Speaker 2>Casper's in the mix. He's got thoughts.

0:56:23.880 --> 0:56:26.000
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, he's so huge.

0:56:26.160 --> 0:56:30.160
<v Speaker 2>Talk about a little baby with big ideas. Oh he

0:56:30.280 --> 0:56:32.440
<v Speaker 2>just fell. Oh he's good, he's good. Yeah.

0:56:32.560 --> 0:56:35.799
<v Speaker 1>I agree that the because the first time I saw

0:56:35.800 --> 0:56:38.320
<v Speaker 1>this movie and you see her with her baby brain

0:56:38.719 --> 0:56:41.880
<v Speaker 1>and her adult body and she's having sex with adult

0:56:41.920 --> 0:56:45.759
<v Speaker 1>men with adult brains, and I was so grossed out

0:56:45.800 --> 0:56:46.320
<v Speaker 1>by it.

0:56:46.320 --> 0:56:47.080
<v Speaker 2>It's gross.

0:56:47.200 --> 0:56:49.960
<v Speaker 1>And then I started to realize that, Okay, it seems

0:56:49.960 --> 0:56:54.000
<v Speaker 1>like the director is making some intentional commentary that seems

0:56:54.000 --> 0:56:57.719
<v Speaker 1>to suggest that, like, men are so preoccupied with their

0:56:57.760 --> 0:57:01.560
<v Speaker 1>own sexual desire that they don't eat noticed that the

0:57:01.600 --> 0:57:04.600
<v Speaker 1>woman they're physically attracted to has the mind of a

0:57:04.640 --> 0:57:07.160
<v Speaker 1>small child, or if they do notice, they don't seem

0:57:07.239 --> 0:57:09.640
<v Speaker 1>to care. And so I was like, Okay, that seems

0:57:09.640 --> 0:57:11.719
<v Speaker 1>to be what your gross is getting out.

0:57:11.640 --> 0:57:14.719
<v Speaker 2>Including the guys that were like theoretically rooting for like

0:57:14.760 --> 0:57:17.240
<v Speaker 2>that's yeah. I think like Max is a tricky character

0:57:17.280 --> 0:57:19.080
<v Speaker 2>for me in that regard, because I feel like the movie,

0:57:19.120 --> 0:57:21.000
<v Speaker 2>in the way that it ends ends up being like

0:57:21.440 --> 0:57:24.560
<v Speaker 2>Max is a pretty good guy. Yeah, sure, he made

0:57:24.560 --> 0:57:28.080
<v Speaker 2>some choices that weren't the best, and he justifies it

0:57:28.200 --> 0:57:32.080
<v Speaker 2>usually by being like, you know how charismatic Willem Dafoe is.

0:57:32.200 --> 0:57:35.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, that doesn't mean that you should have sex

0:57:35.720 --> 0:57:38.840
<v Speaker 2>with a baby, marry a baby. You can't just be like, well,

0:57:38.920 --> 0:57:41.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, he's just like when you're in his orbit,

0:57:41.640 --> 0:57:43.880
<v Speaker 2>it's hard to not marry a baby. And you're like,

0:57:43.920 --> 0:57:46.720
<v Speaker 2>I just don't believe that's true. I am always sort

0:57:46.760 --> 0:57:50.160
<v Speaker 2>of responsive to like even the quote unquote good guy

0:57:50.200 --> 0:57:53.160
<v Speaker 2>that you're told is the good guy is still you know,

0:57:53.240 --> 0:57:55.800
<v Speaker 2>adhering to this fucked up logic.

0:57:56.920 --> 0:58:00.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think he is very much to make a

0:58:00.960 --> 0:58:04.320
<v Speaker 3>Sex in the City reference the Burger, the Jack Berger

0:58:04.440 --> 0:58:09.920
<v Speaker 3>in the equation, you know, like maybe the evil general

0:58:10.600 --> 0:58:13.520
<v Speaker 3>that's maybe you know, that's mister big a little bit,

0:58:14.120 --> 0:58:16.320
<v Speaker 3>and who is Mark Ruffalo and the Sex in the

0:58:16.360 --> 0:58:20.200
<v Speaker 3>City universe, you know, maybe God. Fortunately I don't think

0:58:20.200 --> 0:58:22.840
<v Speaker 3>she fucks anyone like that, but good for her, I think.

0:58:23.800 --> 0:58:28.840
<v Speaker 3>But yes, obviously there is something sinister that I don't

0:58:28.880 --> 0:58:34.120
<v Speaker 3>know if the movie itself recognizes about treating that character

0:58:34.440 --> 0:58:37.760
<v Speaker 3>as a good guy in the end. However, my experience

0:58:37.800 --> 0:58:41.080
<v Speaker 3>of the movie, and I was fully done with my

0:58:41.160 --> 0:58:45.800
<v Speaker 3>movie poor by this time, so my opinion can't entirely

0:58:45.840 --> 0:58:50.280
<v Speaker 3>be trusted. I was like, so team Bella Baxter by

0:58:50.280 --> 0:58:51.760
<v Speaker 3>the end of the movie that I was just like,

0:58:51.800 --> 0:58:55.480
<v Speaker 3>whatever she wants, you know, like, yeah, she was so

0:58:56.200 --> 0:58:59.040
<v Speaker 3>smart and badass by that point. I was just like,

0:58:59.280 --> 0:59:02.040
<v Speaker 3>they'll probably get to worse later. It's clear that this

0:59:02.120 --> 0:59:04.560
<v Speaker 3>movie is just like trying to wrap itself up because

0:59:04.600 --> 0:59:07.760
<v Speaker 3>it's twenty minutes too long like most movies. Yeah, and

0:59:07.800 --> 0:59:11.240
<v Speaker 3>so like, I'm just gonna kind of gently ignore this

0:59:11.440 --> 0:59:13.640
<v Speaker 3>ending slash take it with a grain of salt because

0:59:13.680 --> 0:59:16.560
<v Speaker 3>I'm still looking at Emma Stone's outfits and I love

0:59:16.680 --> 0:59:17.960
<v Speaker 3>her character period.

0:59:18.360 --> 0:59:21.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think that the ending just like felt weird. Yeah,

0:59:21.600 --> 0:59:24.520
<v Speaker 2>Like by the ending, I wasn't like I wish themooviie

0:59:24.680 --> 0:59:30.400
<v Speaker 2>was still happening, but it like just feels funky because

0:59:30.400 --> 0:59:34.640
<v Speaker 2>I also am like fully team Bella Baxter, and I

0:59:34.680 --> 0:59:36.680
<v Speaker 2>don't know, I guess just like sort of close the

0:59:36.720 --> 0:59:42.320
<v Speaker 2>loop on the extensive criticism of this movie's sex scenes.

0:59:42.400 --> 0:59:46.520
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that it takes up undue narrative space.

0:59:47.000 --> 0:59:51.640
<v Speaker 2>I think that visually it feels like it's obsessed over

0:59:52.200 --> 0:59:55.920
<v Speaker 2>more so than any other developmental stage she has. I

0:59:56.000 --> 0:59:59.120
<v Speaker 2>think that that's like, yeah, where that controversy comes from.

0:59:59.160 --> 1:00:02.400
<v Speaker 2>No matter where you land on it, you can't argue

1:00:02.520 --> 1:00:07.400
<v Speaker 2>that the movie is more visually interested in her mental

1:00:07.640 --> 1:00:10.200
<v Speaker 2>awakening than her physical one. It gives a lot of

1:00:10.240 --> 1:00:12.360
<v Speaker 2>real estate to her physical awakening.

1:00:12.600 --> 1:00:16.400
<v Speaker 3>But doesn't that just make for like a more fun, sexy,

1:00:16.440 --> 1:00:17.520
<v Speaker 3>interesting movie.

1:00:18.760 --> 1:00:20.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, I'm not even saying that I don't like that,

1:00:21.080 --> 1:00:23.520
<v Speaker 2>but I think that that's like why, because as I

1:00:23.600 --> 1:00:25.160
<v Speaker 2>was like watching it, I was like, I do think

1:00:25.160 --> 1:00:27.760
<v Speaker 2>that it is like fairly well paced and like where

1:00:27.840 --> 1:00:31.520
<v Speaker 2>her priorities are and where her developmental stage is. But

1:00:31.880 --> 1:00:36.680
<v Speaker 2>like visually, the like really intense visual scenes are when

1:00:36.720 --> 1:00:39.040
<v Speaker 2>she's having sex and not when she's reading a book,

1:00:39.080 --> 1:00:42.720
<v Speaker 2>because that's technically more interesting to watch. So that's sort

1:00:42.760 --> 1:00:45.400
<v Speaker 2>of my theory on that. But I also think that

1:00:45.480 --> 1:00:48.920
<v Speaker 2>like that is a perfectly fair criticism to have of

1:00:48.960 --> 1:00:53.520
<v Speaker 2>this movie because it is objectively like icky that she's

1:00:53.560 --> 1:00:54.920
<v Speaker 2>a baby fucking adult.

1:00:55.240 --> 1:00:57.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. But when I think of

1:00:57.520 --> 1:01:00.240
<v Speaker 3>like the best sex scenes in the movie, what does

1:01:00.280 --> 1:01:04.040
<v Speaker 3>she call it? Vigorous jumping? Furious furious jumping? I mean

1:01:04.080 --> 1:01:07.400
<v Speaker 3>that's a great example of like I love the little

1:01:07.440 --> 1:01:11.520
<v Speaker 3>constructed phrases that she comes up with. They're so funny

1:01:11.600 --> 1:01:15.840
<v Speaker 3>and like visceral. But I don't know, like the sex

1:01:15.880 --> 1:01:19.520
<v Speaker 3>scenes that I remember the most are I guess ones

1:01:19.720 --> 1:01:24.800
<v Speaker 3>where she's maybe in the like slightly post adolescent phase.

1:01:24.880 --> 1:01:30.040
<v Speaker 3>She's not literally a baby anymore, so she's like furious jumping.

1:01:30.520 --> 1:01:30.800
<v Speaker 1>Right.

1:01:31.080 --> 1:01:34.240
<v Speaker 3>It's not great, but I don't know. We're all just

1:01:34.320 --> 1:01:37.600
<v Speaker 3>like going on intuition when we're trying to figure out

1:01:37.680 --> 1:01:40.680
<v Speaker 3>how creepy any one of these given sex scenes are,

1:01:41.200 --> 1:01:45.760
<v Speaker 3>and like, yeah, at a certain point pretty soon into

1:01:45.760 --> 1:01:49.720
<v Speaker 3>the movie, actually, once thank god, we transitioned into the colors,

1:01:49.960 --> 1:01:54.440
<v Speaker 3>I was like, I am not so creeped out on

1:01:54.480 --> 1:01:57.520
<v Speaker 3>this anymore. Like I think I really believe that, like

1:01:57.560 --> 1:02:00.080
<v Speaker 3>this woman is horny.

1:02:00.360 --> 1:02:02.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think that that's what helps is like she

1:02:02.520 --> 1:02:08.560
<v Speaker 2>does initiate most of the sex in the movie.

1:02:08.840 --> 1:02:12.720
<v Speaker 1>So I have two problems with the way like the

1:02:12.800 --> 1:02:15.800
<v Speaker 1>exploration of female sexuality is handled. And I think it

1:02:15.800 --> 1:02:17.160
<v Speaker 1>has a lot to do with the fact that this

1:02:17.280 --> 1:02:21.760
<v Speaker 1>movie is again adapted from a book by a man screenwriter,

1:02:21.920 --> 1:02:25.120
<v Speaker 1>man director man. Because the things that it mishandles, and

1:02:25.160 --> 1:02:26.840
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure I could come up with more if I

1:02:26.880 --> 1:02:29.320
<v Speaker 1>watched the movie again or mauled on it longer. But

1:02:29.920 --> 1:02:32.480
<v Speaker 1>two things that really bugged me was that the movie

1:02:33.200 --> 1:02:40.680
<v Speaker 1>equates sexual curiosity and sexual feelings with being emotionally ready

1:02:40.720 --> 1:02:43.840
<v Speaker 1>to have sex with other people, because like children can

1:02:43.880 --> 1:02:47.520
<v Speaker 1>feel sexual feelings, they can masturbate, they do masturbate, but

1:02:47.520 --> 1:02:50.880
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't mean that they are emotionally mature enough to

1:02:50.960 --> 1:02:54.400
<v Speaker 1>start having sex. But this story suggests that Bella when

1:02:54.400 --> 1:02:56.600
<v Speaker 1>she still has a baby brain, because when she leaves

1:02:56.640 --> 1:02:59.640
<v Speaker 1>to go on that trip with Duncan in the early

1:02:59.720 --> 1:03:03.560
<v Speaker 1>days that trip, like she still is a child cognitively

1:03:04.120 --> 1:03:08.200
<v Speaker 1>and emotionally, but she's like, I'm having sex, I'm ready

1:03:08.200 --> 1:03:11.080
<v Speaker 1>to have sex. And it's like that doesn't track with

1:03:11.280 --> 1:03:14.640
<v Speaker 1>how children actually cognitively and emotionally developed. So I just

1:03:14.960 --> 1:03:17.080
<v Speaker 1>it's one thing if she just like masturbates a lot

1:03:17.120 --> 1:03:22.480
<v Speaker 1>and she's exploring her sexuality with herself, but I was

1:03:22.560 --> 1:03:25.160
<v Speaker 1>just like, why are you equating that with her being

1:03:25.200 --> 1:03:28.600
<v Speaker 1>ready to have sex with other people and like adult men.

1:03:28.960 --> 1:03:31.120
<v Speaker 1>So that's one thing that really bugged me. And then

1:03:31.160 --> 1:03:35.240
<v Speaker 1>the other thing was that the more mature and like

1:03:35.440 --> 1:03:41.040
<v Speaker 1>intellectually enlightened Bella becomes, the less horny she becomes, which

1:03:41.120 --> 1:03:45.000
<v Speaker 1>kind of suggests like, oh, well, smart and educated women

1:03:45.200 --> 1:03:48.080
<v Speaker 1>will not be horny, They'll cease to be horny. Because

1:03:48.120 --> 1:03:51.040
<v Speaker 1>this is also reinforced by the Martha character, who's like,

1:03:51.520 --> 1:03:53.919
<v Speaker 1>I haven't had sex in twenty years, and I never

1:03:54.000 --> 1:03:57.920
<v Speaker 1>masturbate hardly. And she's like, I'm more concerned with what's

1:03:58.080 --> 1:04:02.120
<v Speaker 1>you know, between my ears her brain than what's between

1:04:02.280 --> 1:04:03.880
<v Speaker 1>my legs her sex organs.

1:04:03.920 --> 1:04:06.400
<v Speaker 3>So but could that be like a menopausal thing?

1:04:06.440 --> 1:04:10.040
<v Speaker 1>I mean maybe sure, But also I'm just like smart

1:04:10.040 --> 1:04:12.760
<v Speaker 1>women can be so horny.

1:04:13.040 --> 1:04:17.440
<v Speaker 2>I was sort of thrown by that shift. It felt

1:04:17.480 --> 1:04:21.400
<v Speaker 2>like weirdly conservative. Yeah right, yeah, and what the movie

1:04:21.440 --> 1:04:25.480
<v Speaker 2>is say otherwise, And that is before she starts working

1:04:25.760 --> 1:04:28.880
<v Speaker 2>as a sex worker, which I think that that is

1:04:28.960 --> 1:04:32.919
<v Speaker 2>like this movie's attitude towards sex work is better than

1:04:33.040 --> 1:04:37.000
<v Speaker 2>most movies attitudes towards sex work is the only thing

1:04:37.040 --> 1:04:38.640
<v Speaker 2>I wish And I don't know if this is more

1:04:38.680 --> 1:04:40.880
<v Speaker 2>fleshed out in the book, but like I do wish

1:04:40.880 --> 1:04:44.320
<v Speaker 2>that we got to know the women who work there better.

1:04:44.440 --> 1:04:46.600
<v Speaker 2>It felt like they were very like there at the

1:04:46.680 --> 1:04:50.240
<v Speaker 2>last second, and they are it seems like very important

1:04:50.320 --> 1:04:54.840
<v Speaker 2>in Bella's developmental growth. That is like where I start

1:04:54.920 --> 1:04:58.120
<v Speaker 2>to understand the criticism, even though I don't totally agree

1:04:58.160 --> 1:05:00.000
<v Speaker 2>with it. That like there's quote unquote too much said

1:05:00.240 --> 1:05:03.080
<v Speaker 2>in this movie is like you see a lot of

1:05:03.080 --> 1:05:06.320
<v Speaker 2>the sex. You hear that she's going to these meetings,

1:05:06.520 --> 1:05:09.040
<v Speaker 2>you hear that she is like doing a B and C.

1:05:09.440 --> 1:05:13.120
<v Speaker 2>You hear that she's connecting with the women who work

1:05:13.160 --> 1:05:15.560
<v Speaker 2>at the brothel, But you don't really see a lot

1:05:15.600 --> 1:05:18.080
<v Speaker 2>of it. You just know that it's happening. But when

1:05:18.080 --> 1:05:22.160
<v Speaker 2>it comes to having sex with men, you see, yeah,

1:05:22.200 --> 1:05:24.240
<v Speaker 2>and you hear about it. So it does feel like

1:05:24.280 --> 1:05:27.720
<v Speaker 2>it ends up being like more emphasized by the movie,

1:05:27.800 --> 1:05:30.960
<v Speaker 2>even if it's not more important in this story. I

1:05:31.000 --> 1:05:33.080
<v Speaker 2>don't know, it's like it is tricky, but I love

1:05:33.160 --> 1:05:35.920
<v Speaker 2>that that happens, and I love that, like, I don't know.

1:05:35.960 --> 1:05:39.680
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you think about how sex workers are stereotyped

1:05:40.000 --> 1:05:44.600
<v Speaker 2>in movies in any number of ways that we've talked

1:05:44.640 --> 1:05:46.720
<v Speaker 2>about on this show over the years, and for the

1:05:46.720 --> 1:05:49.800
<v Speaker 2>most part, that is pretty swiftly avoided in this movie,

1:05:49.840 --> 1:05:53.720
<v Speaker 2>where the only shame put onto sex workers in this

1:05:53.760 --> 1:05:57.320
<v Speaker 2>movie are by characters we don't like. I mean, Bella

1:05:57.520 --> 1:06:01.120
<v Speaker 2>is very frank in her life, even when she's like

1:06:01.200 --> 1:06:03.600
<v Speaker 2>not loving her job. She's like, I am my own

1:06:03.720 --> 1:06:08.160
<v Speaker 2>means of production. Like she's like very clear about like

1:06:08.240 --> 1:06:10.320
<v Speaker 2>why she does what she does. She likes it, even

1:06:10.360 --> 1:06:13.200
<v Speaker 2>on the days she doesn't. She's not unhappy to be

1:06:13.280 --> 1:06:16.080
<v Speaker 2>doing it. It's not made out to be coercive. It's

1:06:16.200 --> 1:06:19.560
<v Speaker 2>like it's a job. It's presented as a job, which

1:06:19.680 --> 1:06:22.840
<v Speaker 2>I feel like sex work almost never is in movies.

1:06:22.920 --> 1:06:25.560
<v Speaker 2>It's always like bogged down by shame. And I love

1:06:25.640 --> 1:06:28.240
<v Speaker 2>that about Bella. I love how she like at any

1:06:28.320 --> 1:06:32.680
<v Speaker 2>turn when someone tries to entrap her or like projects

1:06:32.680 --> 1:06:35.320
<v Speaker 2>shame onto her, She's like, that doesn't make sense to me,

1:06:35.480 --> 1:06:36.600
<v Speaker 2>so I reject it.

1:06:36.960 --> 1:06:42.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you're right that we hear from her lover, her

1:06:42.160 --> 1:06:45.560
<v Speaker 3>female lover. I forget the character's name, Twinette. Yeah, Twinette

1:06:45.920 --> 1:06:50.720
<v Speaker 3>significantly less than any of the male lovers, which it's

1:06:50.760 --> 1:06:54.040
<v Speaker 3>true I didn't love, but in the grand scheme of things,

1:06:54.320 --> 1:06:57.000
<v Speaker 3>like what a treat for her to like have that

1:06:57.160 --> 1:07:00.800
<v Speaker 3>character in her life at all? Yeah, I'm back on

1:07:01.160 --> 1:07:03.680
<v Speaker 3>like some of the exchanges we've just had about like

1:07:03.800 --> 1:07:08.120
<v Speaker 3>her mental age and how that may or may not

1:07:08.280 --> 1:07:11.080
<v Speaker 3>be treated appropriately by these men in her life, and

1:07:11.840 --> 1:07:15.080
<v Speaker 3>in this moment blaming your ghosts once again for this

1:07:15.200 --> 1:07:21.400
<v Speaker 3>like edge lord fuckery, because like Frankensteining a character that

1:07:21.560 --> 1:07:24.440
<v Speaker 3>is like provoking us to have this conversation about like

1:07:25.200 --> 1:07:27.840
<v Speaker 3>when a woman is old enough to be able to

1:07:28.000 --> 1:07:32.600
<v Speaker 3>like give sexual consent by like putting a baby brain

1:07:32.680 --> 1:07:34.920
<v Speaker 3>in the body of an adult person. It's just like

1:07:35.000 --> 1:07:37.680
<v Speaker 3>it's such fuckery, you know what I mean. It's like,

1:07:37.960 --> 1:07:43.680
<v Speaker 3>what a stupid conversation whose like resolution will not be

1:07:43.840 --> 1:07:49.880
<v Speaker 3>applicable to literally anything else ever, you know, right, It's

1:07:49.920 --> 1:07:53.800
<v Speaker 3>like we will spend like the next however long figuring

1:07:53.800 --> 1:07:55.800
<v Speaker 3>out how we really feel about this, and then we

1:07:55.840 --> 1:08:00.520
<v Speaker 3>won't be able to use that consensus on anything at

1:08:00.600 --> 1:08:08.160
<v Speaker 3>all because women, grown women don't have baby brains famously,

1:08:10.120 --> 1:08:13.240
<v Speaker 3>and babies don't have grown women bodies, like.

1:08:14.840 --> 1:08:18.120
<v Speaker 2>Except in the movies where they do. There, it is weird.

1:08:18.160 --> 1:08:20.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, Like I can see a lot of

1:08:20.920 --> 1:08:23.760
<v Speaker 2>different I don't know. This movie does feel unique in

1:08:24.040 --> 1:08:27.360
<v Speaker 2>like it seems like a lot of people's takeaway. It

1:08:27.439 --> 1:08:30.320
<v Speaker 2>is like very entrenched in personal experience. There's certain things

1:08:30.320 --> 1:08:32.559
<v Speaker 2>where like Kily and I agree with you, like that

1:08:32.920 --> 1:08:37.759
<v Speaker 2>implying that thinking about sex and discovering your body means

1:08:37.800 --> 1:08:41.200
<v Speaker 2>that you are ready and able to consent to sex

1:08:41.400 --> 1:08:45.080
<v Speaker 2>is like a really really slippery slope that this movie

1:08:45.240 --> 1:08:47.880
<v Speaker 2>I think takes several steps back from. It doesn't even

1:08:47.920 --> 1:08:49.479
<v Speaker 2>really want you to think about because I don't think

1:08:49.520 --> 1:08:53.120
<v Speaker 2>it's like prepared to engage with that question, right. But

1:08:53.240 --> 1:08:54.960
<v Speaker 2>also it's like, I don't know, the sex scenes that

1:08:55.120 --> 1:09:01.120
<v Speaker 2>are there are centered on her. You do see men,

1:09:01.520 --> 1:09:05.880
<v Speaker 2>but they're not focused on But I still like, maybe

1:09:05.920 --> 1:09:09.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm a fucking prude. And I know, like your Guslanthemus

1:09:10.040 --> 1:09:13.080
<v Speaker 2>is like contemporary audiences are prude, and I was like,

1:09:13.120 --> 1:09:15.599
<v Speaker 2>maybe you're just European. I don't know, like maybe I

1:09:15.680 --> 1:09:17.200
<v Speaker 2>am like an American prude.

1:09:18.160 --> 1:09:20.479
<v Speaker 3>I have question as old as time.

1:09:20.600 --> 1:09:23.639
<v Speaker 2>Truly, like maybe I'm an American prud like I didn't

1:09:24.080 --> 1:09:28.439
<v Speaker 2>need all of it, but like I wasn't outside of this.

1:09:28.520 --> 1:09:30.720
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. It's so tricky because it's like in

1:09:30.760 --> 1:09:34.120
<v Speaker 2>the criticism, you're describing Caitlin like it is gross in

1:09:34.200 --> 1:09:36.360
<v Speaker 2>terms of like do I have an issue a see

1:09:36.479 --> 1:09:39.360
<v Speaker 2>a naked actor if they are fully consenting and fine

1:09:39.360 --> 1:09:42.080
<v Speaker 2>with it, And Emma Stone was because she is an

1:09:42.080 --> 1:09:46.080
<v Speaker 2>executive producer in the movie, then yeah, I don't really care.

1:09:46.960 --> 1:09:49.519
<v Speaker 2>I just wish that there was if I could have

1:09:49.680 --> 1:09:52.240
<v Speaker 2>the exact perfect movie that I wanted. I wouldn't have

1:09:52.320 --> 1:09:56.800
<v Speaker 2>minded sacrificing some of those sequences in favor of, like,

1:09:57.120 --> 1:10:00.200
<v Speaker 2>even if it's like sex in the context of her

1:10:00.240 --> 1:10:03.439
<v Speaker 2>intellectual awakening, because I like how like I mean we

1:10:03.439 --> 1:10:06.160
<v Speaker 2>were joking about earlier, but like fucking the first person

1:10:06.280 --> 1:10:09.880
<v Speaker 2>you meet who has good politics, Like that's cool. Like

1:10:10.520 --> 1:10:14.040
<v Speaker 2>I would have liked to see more of that relationship

1:10:14.360 --> 1:10:16.519
<v Speaker 2>in her life, because it seemed like for Bellet it

1:10:16.560 --> 1:10:20.240
<v Speaker 2>was really important, but for the movie it wasn't really important, right.

1:10:20.680 --> 1:10:25.519
<v Speaker 1>I think the movie handles some things well in its

1:10:25.560 --> 1:10:30.320
<v Speaker 1>examination of things such as male fragility and how men

1:10:30.600 --> 1:10:33.599
<v Speaker 1>perceive and treat women, and other things it doesn't handle

1:10:33.680 --> 1:10:39.120
<v Speaker 1>so well, such as its exploration of female sexuality, for example.

1:10:39.720 --> 1:10:40.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

1:10:40.320 --> 1:10:46.000
<v Speaker 1>So it's almost like maybe a woman should have co written, yeah,

1:10:46.160 --> 1:10:47.640
<v Speaker 1>or directed the movie.

1:10:47.920 --> 1:10:50.360
<v Speaker 2>I really think that that would have helped a lot

1:10:50.400 --> 1:10:51.280
<v Speaker 2>of the problems.

1:10:51.560 --> 1:10:56.240
<v Speaker 3>I agree. I think we wouldn't feel such cognitive dissonance

1:10:56.439 --> 1:11:00.559
<v Speaker 3>about like enjoying aspects of the movie and cringing aspects

1:11:00.560 --> 1:11:05.800
<v Speaker 3>of the movie if simply the female gays were prioritized

1:11:05.840 --> 1:11:09.080
<v Speaker 3>on the back end when it obviously wasn't, you.

1:11:09.040 --> 1:11:11.639
<v Speaker 2>Know, right, yeah, because it's like I think, like that

1:11:11.720 --> 1:11:16.040
<v Speaker 2>the male fragility plot stuff is handled really well, probably

1:11:16.040 --> 1:11:20.440
<v Speaker 2>because it's written and adapted by people who have that experience.

1:11:20.760 --> 1:11:23.680
<v Speaker 2>Like that, clearly that makes sense. Like I think it

1:11:23.800 --> 1:11:26.920
<v Speaker 2>works really well, and like Mark Ruffalo is like really

1:11:27.000 --> 1:11:31.920
<v Speaker 2>good in that role of like the more Bella rejects,

1:11:32.439 --> 1:11:36.479
<v Speaker 2>you know, falling into these like various traps he's presenting,

1:11:36.520 --> 1:11:38.759
<v Speaker 2>whether it be being kidnapped, her on a boat, getting

1:11:38.800 --> 1:11:42.400
<v Speaker 2>married like whatever Victorian trap he's trying to get her in.

1:11:43.520 --> 1:11:46.639
<v Speaker 2>The more she outsmarts him, the more he becomes a baby.

1:11:46.720 --> 1:11:49.599
<v Speaker 2>I like that like sort of parallel when she's maturing,

1:11:49.720 --> 1:11:53.400
<v Speaker 2>he's devolving, and like that all works. I think one

1:11:53.439 --> 1:11:56.120
<v Speaker 2>thing that we haven't done too yet that I want

1:11:56.160 --> 1:11:58.040
<v Speaker 2>to talk about because I don't know how to feel

1:11:58.080 --> 1:11:59.920
<v Speaker 2>about it. I wasn't thinking about it as much on

1:12:00.120 --> 1:12:04.040
<v Speaker 2>my first viewing, but the way that she relates to

1:12:04.200 --> 1:12:08.400
<v Speaker 2>God is really interesting to be and I want to

1:12:08.479 --> 1:12:11.000
<v Speaker 2>hear your thoughts that Amanda is talking about the sort

1:12:11.040 --> 1:12:14.880
<v Speaker 2>of scientist trope where I wasn't honing in on this,

1:12:14.960 --> 1:12:17.479
<v Speaker 2>I think because I was annoyed with other stuff on

1:12:17.560 --> 1:12:21.400
<v Speaker 2>my first viewing. But how there is this cycle of

1:12:21.479 --> 1:12:26.320
<v Speaker 2>abuse taking place in this freaky mansion that they live in,

1:12:26.920 --> 1:12:33.000
<v Speaker 2>where we see that God is disabled as a result

1:12:33.120 --> 1:12:38.360
<v Speaker 2>of abuse he experienced being experimented on by his own father,

1:12:39.120 --> 1:12:45.680
<v Speaker 2>and he is then perpetuating similar abuses onto people and

1:12:45.760 --> 1:12:51.240
<v Speaker 2>animals instead of processing his own pain and anchor and resentment.

1:12:51.280 --> 1:12:55.320
<v Speaker 2>Which is really interesting, But like, I feel like the

1:12:55.760 --> 1:12:59.240
<v Speaker 2>movie kind of bails on dealing with it like it's

1:12:59.320 --> 1:13:03.800
<v Speaker 2>not nothing, because Bella does return to say I am

1:13:03.880 --> 1:13:08.040
<v Speaker 2>upset with you for deceiving me about the circumstances that

1:13:08.080 --> 1:13:10.000
<v Speaker 2>I was born. It's so weird. I feel like everyone

1:13:10.080 --> 1:13:13.240
<v Speaker 2>has a more normal version of this conversation with their parents,

1:13:13.280 --> 1:13:14.920
<v Speaker 2>where you're like, well, I didn't ask to be born,

1:13:15.040 --> 1:13:19.320
<v Speaker 2>but being alive is pretty sick. But I truly didn't

1:13:19.320 --> 1:13:21.519
<v Speaker 2>ask to be born, you know, like that whole thing.

1:13:21.720 --> 1:13:25.640
<v Speaker 2>But she does, like, you know, pretty clearly, say like

1:13:25.760 --> 1:13:29.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm angry with you, but like hating your parents for

1:13:30.000 --> 1:13:33.040
<v Speaker 2>certain things that are totally fair, but wanting a relationship

1:13:33.040 --> 1:13:35.439
<v Speaker 2>with them anyways is a very common experience. I thought

1:13:35.439 --> 1:13:38.240
<v Speaker 2>it was like well handled, but I still get I

1:13:38.439 --> 1:13:42.639
<v Speaker 2>like can't shake on every viewing that, Like Williem Dafoe's

1:13:42.680 --> 1:13:47.120
<v Speaker 2>character ends up like getting off too easy like he does.

1:13:47.479 --> 1:13:52.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, I gotta say I found that stuff harder

1:13:53.040 --> 1:13:59.280
<v Speaker 3>to take than the sort of quessifying sexual dynamics that

1:13:59.280 --> 1:14:05.000
<v Speaker 3>we're discussing, because yeah, it's the thing that I've said

1:14:05.040 --> 1:14:11.160
<v Speaker 3>where like I don't appreciate this god complex mad scientist trope.

1:14:11.479 --> 1:14:13.880
<v Speaker 3>I like I literally think it's like not good for

1:14:13.960 --> 1:14:19.559
<v Speaker 3>the culture. But uh yeah, like I just don't buy it.

1:14:19.680 --> 1:14:25.040
<v Speaker 3>I like, don't buy perpetuating that kind of mad scientist

1:14:25.200 --> 1:14:29.679
<v Speaker 3>abuse because you experienced it, like I don't. I don't

1:14:29.680 --> 1:14:32.760
<v Speaker 3>buy it as an excuse and I certainly don't buy

1:14:32.800 --> 1:14:37.479
<v Speaker 3>it as an explanation. So yeah, I think we were

1:14:37.479 --> 1:14:39.920
<v Speaker 3>supposed to. We were supposed to say, like, oh, all

1:14:40.000 --> 1:14:43.280
<v Speaker 3>this makes sense because of what he's been through and

1:14:43.439 --> 1:14:47.000
<v Speaker 3>like he's not as bad as these other motherfuckers, So

1:14:47.240 --> 1:14:50.680
<v Speaker 3>like now we're supposed to re embrace him by or

1:14:50.720 --> 1:14:53.559
<v Speaker 3>embrace him at all by default. But I couldn't. I

1:14:53.600 --> 1:14:54.360
<v Speaker 3>couldn't get there.

1:14:54.560 --> 1:14:58.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, glad that Bello was able to forgive him, but

1:14:58.600 --> 1:15:02.400
<v Speaker 2>like I personally was not. Like that didn't work for me,

1:15:02.479 --> 1:15:06.120
<v Speaker 2>and I feel like going into this last few with

1:15:06.240 --> 1:15:08.679
<v Speaker 2>that on my mind, it made me dislike the ending

1:15:08.760 --> 1:15:12.639
<v Speaker 2>even more because the Bella of the book breaks that

1:15:12.680 --> 1:15:16.320
<v Speaker 2>cycle of abuse and uses what she's learned in medicine

1:15:16.320 --> 1:15:19.920
<v Speaker 2>to help people, which ties into her socialist awakening of

1:15:20.000 --> 1:15:23.360
<v Speaker 2>like take what you have and distribute it to other people.

1:15:23.760 --> 1:15:27.360
<v Speaker 2>But the Bella of the movie does what her father

1:15:27.520 --> 1:15:31.160
<v Speaker 2>did and continues this cycle of abuse, and you know,

1:15:31.640 --> 1:15:34.120
<v Speaker 2>is her target far better chosen?

1:15:34.320 --> 1:15:37.320
<v Speaker 3>Like yeah, like she's like Dexter.

1:15:37.600 --> 1:15:40.519
<v Speaker 2>That guy is the most evil guy in the world,

1:15:41.080 --> 1:15:43.760
<v Speaker 2>so she's not a villain. But I just felt like

1:15:43.800 --> 1:15:47.080
<v Speaker 2>she was participating in the cycle of abuse in a

1:15:47.080 --> 1:15:49.600
<v Speaker 2>way that the movie was like, this is awesome. It

1:15:49.680 --> 1:15:52.120
<v Speaker 2>just felt like a little overly simplistic, And once I

1:15:52.320 --> 1:15:54.160
<v Speaker 2>found out how the book ended, I was like, yeah,

1:15:54.400 --> 1:15:58.200
<v Speaker 2>that does seem more in line with like what she's

1:15:58.240 --> 1:16:01.519
<v Speaker 2>been building towards in her development. It almost feels like

1:16:01.560 --> 1:16:05.559
<v Speaker 2>a step backwards to do exactly what her father was doing,

1:16:05.600 --> 1:16:08.120
<v Speaker 2>because she spent all this time finding out who she

1:16:08.360 --> 1:16:09.920
<v Speaker 2>was and wanting to be different.

1:16:11.400 --> 1:16:14.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, do I find it cathartic to see

1:16:14.840 --> 1:16:18.920
<v Speaker 1>the general bleeding like a goat Hell? Yeah, yeah I do.

1:16:19.040 --> 1:16:21.759
<v Speaker 1>But also it's like you could have just let him

1:16:22.040 --> 1:16:25.800
<v Speaker 1>bleed out from his wound and die like it's so

1:16:25.920 --> 1:16:28.679
<v Speaker 1>much extra effort to perform surgery on them.

1:16:29.240 --> 1:16:31.040
<v Speaker 2>Turn him into your chihuah Yeah.

1:16:31.200 --> 1:16:33.519
<v Speaker 3>Right, you know, sometimes death is too kind.

1:16:33.760 --> 1:16:36.479
<v Speaker 2>It's true. My mom says that all the time.

1:16:39.560 --> 1:16:42.440
<v Speaker 1>Some people deserve a freakier fate.

1:16:43.800 --> 1:16:48.679
<v Speaker 2>Life sentence of being a goat. Honestly, it sounds better

1:16:49.200 --> 1:16:50.120
<v Speaker 2>in this Dan and Age.

1:16:50.200 --> 1:16:53.200
<v Speaker 3>I'm like, someone go me. Honestly, I want to walk

1:16:53.200 --> 1:16:55.960
<v Speaker 3>around and bleed, eat grass and just not worry about shit.

1:16:57.080 --> 1:17:02.000
<v Speaker 1>I know, but I think that speaks to the strength

1:17:02.040 --> 1:17:04.880
<v Speaker 1>of this movie, or one of the stronger aspects of it,

1:17:04.920 --> 1:17:09.320
<v Speaker 1>which is the examination of the way and I'm speaking

1:17:09.439 --> 1:17:12.439
<v Speaker 1>generally here, you know, hashtag not all men, but the

1:17:12.439 --> 1:17:16.080
<v Speaker 1>way that like men tend to perceive women, the way

1:17:16.120 --> 1:17:20.080
<v Speaker 1>men tend to deceive women, what men tend to value

1:17:20.080 --> 1:17:23.960
<v Speaker 1>in women, how men want to control women physically and

1:17:24.120 --> 1:17:29.320
<v Speaker 1>or behaviorally, how men resent women having free will and

1:17:29.400 --> 1:17:33.639
<v Speaker 1>minds of their own, and sexual autonomy and sexual desire,

1:17:33.680 --> 1:17:36.360
<v Speaker 1>all that kind of stuff. Because we see that displayed

1:17:36.360 --> 1:17:39.800
<v Speaker 1>in one way or another in each of these men.

1:17:40.000 --> 1:17:43.320
<v Speaker 1>Where like with God, it's like an extreme example of

1:17:43.360 --> 1:17:48.439
<v Speaker 1>a man like taking away slash manipulating the autonomy of

1:17:48.479 --> 1:17:51.639
<v Speaker 1>a woman as far as like bringing her back from

1:17:51.680 --> 1:17:54.280
<v Speaker 1>the dead and then putting her own baby's brain in

1:17:54.320 --> 1:17:56.920
<v Speaker 1>her body and then not telling her he did any

1:17:56.920 --> 1:17:59.679
<v Speaker 1>of that until the end of the movie. You've got

1:18:00.400 --> 1:18:03.360
<v Speaker 1>as we've discussed a little bit already, like knowing pretty

1:18:03.360 --> 1:18:07.799
<v Speaker 1>early on that she has the mind of a child

1:18:08.040 --> 1:18:11.120
<v Speaker 1>and also doesn't tell her that and falls in love

1:18:11.160 --> 1:18:15.040
<v Speaker 1>with her despite you know, knowing that she is a baby.

1:18:15.400 --> 1:18:16.919
<v Speaker 2>Right then You've.

1:18:16.680 --> 1:18:21.320
<v Speaker 1>Got Duncan, which is a whole Schmorgas board of stuff

1:18:21.360 --> 1:18:25.479
<v Speaker 1>where like the first time he meets her, he assaults her,

1:18:26.080 --> 1:18:30.200
<v Speaker 1>he grows increasingly jealous, and he's trying to control her,

1:18:30.240 --> 1:18:35.200
<v Speaker 1>constantly control her behavior. He resents that she has sexual

1:18:35.200 --> 1:18:39.519
<v Speaker 1>desire outside of him, all this stuff, and then he's

1:18:39.560 --> 1:18:43.840
<v Speaker 1>like driven to the brink of madness because of his

1:18:43.960 --> 1:18:45.360
<v Speaker 1>resentment toward her.

1:18:45.840 --> 1:18:48.600
<v Speaker 2>All of this is like there is a really like

1:18:48.760 --> 1:18:53.600
<v Speaker 2>wide gradient of like types of fragile men available in

1:18:53.640 --> 1:18:55.760
<v Speaker 2>this movie, and I feel like they're all you know,

1:18:55.800 --> 1:18:57.960
<v Speaker 2>they're like over the top because it's a fantasy movie,

1:18:58.000 --> 1:19:01.559
<v Speaker 2>but it feels distinctive, feels like rerack disable oh, sure enough.

1:19:01.680 --> 1:19:04.160
<v Speaker 2>I just wish that you got like more of a

1:19:04.240 --> 1:19:08.680
<v Speaker 2>gradiot outside of Bella with women, Like, there's just not

1:19:09.000 --> 1:19:13.080
<v Speaker 2>as much not that I necessarily have confidence in this

1:19:13.160 --> 1:19:16.400
<v Speaker 2>specific team to like show a wider gradient of women,

1:19:16.439 --> 1:19:20.880
<v Speaker 2>but I did like the sort of running theme of

1:19:20.960 --> 1:19:25.519
<v Speaker 2>like Bella is a person when it behooves a guy,

1:19:25.760 --> 1:19:29.360
<v Speaker 2>and then she's property when it behooves them too, where

1:19:29.400 --> 1:19:32.000
<v Speaker 2>she like has to shout at the captain at the

1:19:32.160 --> 1:19:35.439
<v Speaker 2>end like I am not She doesn't say property. What

1:19:35.479 --> 1:19:39.360
<v Speaker 2>does she say territory? I am not territory. Yeah, Like

1:19:39.439 --> 1:19:43.840
<v Speaker 2>she has to remind different men in different ways that

1:19:44.000 --> 1:19:49.520
<v Speaker 2>she is a person, and I feel like that plays

1:19:49.640 --> 1:19:53.000
<v Speaker 2>really well. And anytime she reminds someone she's a person,

1:19:53.640 --> 1:19:58.160
<v Speaker 2>generally something bad happens to her, which is I mean

1:19:58.200 --> 1:20:01.320
<v Speaker 2>even more typical of that time, but still obviously happens, right.

1:20:01.760 --> 1:20:04.879
<v Speaker 2>I thought, Yeah, this movie does really well with showing

1:20:05.280 --> 1:20:09.000
<v Speaker 2>like all of the different ways that male possessiveness and

1:20:09.080 --> 1:20:12.880
<v Speaker 2>insecurity can manifest. But there's just really the one woman,

1:20:13.000 --> 1:20:16.559
<v Speaker 2>which is like the problem of so many movies.

1:20:16.760 --> 1:20:21.040
<v Speaker 1>It's so weird, I know, because you do have these

1:20:21.080 --> 1:20:25.559
<v Speaker 1>different relationships that she forms over the course of the movie.

1:20:25.600 --> 1:20:30.080
<v Speaker 1>You know, Martha is like teaching Bella to enrich her

1:20:30.200 --> 1:20:33.559
<v Speaker 1>mind and that there's more to life than satiating our

1:20:33.560 --> 1:20:38.040
<v Speaker 1>most carnal desires, which is like, I guess true, but

1:20:38.200 --> 1:20:41.839
<v Speaker 1>like you can also be horny and read about philosophy, Martha.

1:20:42.720 --> 1:20:48.639
<v Speaker 1>There's Twinette who becomes Bella's ally and then later lover,

1:20:49.200 --> 1:20:54.639
<v Speaker 1>and she like helps Bella learn about socialism and stuff

1:20:54.680 --> 1:20:57.560
<v Speaker 1>like that, but we kind of learn next to nothing

1:20:57.600 --> 1:21:02.599
<v Speaker 1>else about Twinette. And I do appreciate representation on screen

1:21:02.920 --> 1:21:06.800
<v Speaker 1>of like, you know, a queer sex scene, but I'm like,

1:21:06.880 --> 1:21:09.320
<v Speaker 1>who is this person again? Like can we learn more

1:21:09.320 --> 1:21:12.880
<v Speaker 1>about Twinette? And then Madam Swiney. There's a number of

1:21:12.920 --> 1:21:16.839
<v Speaker 1>scenes that are pretty significant between Bella and Madam Swiney,

1:21:17.000 --> 1:21:20.400
<v Speaker 1>where you know, she's admiring Bella for wanting to carve

1:21:20.439 --> 1:21:22.800
<v Speaker 1>her own path to freedom, and she's like, let me

1:21:22.840 --> 1:21:24.920
<v Speaker 1>help you on that journey. But then she's also like,

1:21:25.320 --> 1:21:27.439
<v Speaker 1>but I need money, and I need you to make

1:21:27.479 --> 1:21:30.040
<v Speaker 1>money for me, because that's just how it works.

1:21:30.360 --> 1:21:33.160
<v Speaker 2>I think she's interesting for that reason. Yeah, I'll go

1:21:33.200 --> 1:21:35.720
<v Speaker 2>to bat for Madam Swiney. I feel like she's like

1:21:36.400 --> 1:21:41.719
<v Speaker 2>this weird socialist writer stock character where she's like, yeah,

1:21:41.800 --> 1:21:45.400
<v Speaker 2>my politics are great. But you gotta play the game, Bella,

1:21:45.760 --> 1:21:48.920
<v Speaker 2>you gotta play the game. And she's like, do I

1:21:49.120 --> 1:21:50.919
<v Speaker 2>And then at the end she's like, I do.

1:21:51.240 --> 1:21:54.840
<v Speaker 3>A relatable internal battle. We all fight every day.

1:21:55.320 --> 1:21:59.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it felt at least like intentionally dissonan, like that

1:21:59.760 --> 1:22:01.240
<v Speaker 2>was of why she was there.

1:22:01.479 --> 1:22:05.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. True. And then there's finally missus prim the like

1:22:05.880 --> 1:22:10.280
<v Speaker 1>housekeeper at God's house, and at first she hates Bella

1:22:10.320 --> 1:22:11.960
<v Speaker 1>and thinks she's a nuisance, but then at the end

1:22:12.000 --> 1:22:15.800
<v Speaker 1>she's like, no, I'm cool with you now that all

1:22:15.840 --> 1:22:18.200
<v Speaker 1>these men are dead or goats.

1:22:19.160 --> 1:22:21.840
<v Speaker 3>So you know what's weird about these men too, is

1:22:21.880 --> 1:22:25.439
<v Speaker 3>that why are they all identical? Like it's insane how

1:22:25.479 --> 1:22:29.920
<v Speaker 3>they're shade of black hair is all exactly the same.

1:22:30.200 --> 1:22:31.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they're all very similar.

1:22:32.080 --> 1:22:35.880
<v Speaker 3>It is fascinating to me that they're all just these

1:22:35.960 --> 1:22:40.479
<v Speaker 3>like identical horrible dudes who are like a slightly different flavor.

1:22:40.520 --> 1:22:43.519
<v Speaker 3>It's like Rocky Road. And then I don't know, whatever, whatever,

1:22:43.560 --> 1:22:45.320
<v Speaker 3>it's a similar flavor to Rocky Road. I don't eat

1:22:45.320 --> 1:22:47.240
<v Speaker 3>that much ice cream, I dad, we can't handle it.

1:22:47.320 --> 1:22:52.040
<v Speaker 3>I eat cheese though. We went over Then, Yes, I

1:22:52.080 --> 1:22:55.240
<v Speaker 3>did think that it was funny that, like, I almost

1:22:55.280 --> 1:22:59.400
<v Speaker 3>like scramble the male characters because they all look the

1:22:59.400 --> 1:23:02.759
<v Speaker 3>same and they're all awful. But I couldn't forget Bella

1:23:02.760 --> 1:23:03.360
<v Speaker 3>if I tried.

1:23:03.920 --> 1:23:05.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, true, And.

1:23:05.680 --> 1:23:09.240
<v Speaker 3>I do think to be optimistic about this whole thing.

1:23:09.800 --> 1:23:13.880
<v Speaker 3>The one place where Bella and all these men can

1:23:13.920 --> 1:23:17.599
<v Speaker 3>absolutely agree, there is no fighting. Everyone has the same

1:23:17.640 --> 1:23:20.320
<v Speaker 3>take on it is her fashion.

1:23:20.840 --> 1:23:24.640
<v Speaker 2>True, everyone's like the looks are solid.

1:23:24.760 --> 1:23:27.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Like, no one's trying to control what she wears.

1:23:27.200 --> 1:23:30.719
<v Speaker 3>They're like she can clearly handle that. She looks great.

1:23:30.920 --> 1:23:36.000
<v Speaker 1>And again, the movie just one best costume design, Yeah, earned.

1:23:36.080 --> 1:23:39.439
<v Speaker 3>Fully because I love that about the looks because they

1:23:39.560 --> 1:23:45.439
<v Speaker 3>are sexy, but they're wacky. They're like whack a doodle dandy,

1:23:46.600 --> 1:23:49.960
<v Speaker 3>which I really I really appreciated that. Again, I just

1:23:50.479 --> 1:23:53.559
<v Speaker 3>I will forgive so much about this movie because of

1:23:53.880 --> 1:23:54.479
<v Speaker 3>what she wore.

1:23:56.560 --> 1:24:01.240
<v Speaker 2>The last thing I have, I think is just like

1:24:01.560 --> 1:24:04.679
<v Speaker 2>a little where and like the way that the source

1:24:04.720 --> 1:24:09.799
<v Speaker 2>material kind of shines through is on the idea of

1:24:09.880 --> 1:24:13.719
<v Speaker 2>like labor and what constitutes labor and how Bella's view

1:24:14.000 --> 1:24:17.400
<v Speaker 2>on labor evolves over time, because I do feel like

1:24:17.560 --> 1:24:22.200
<v Speaker 2>miss prim is connected in that conversation, even though I

1:24:22.200 --> 1:24:24.320
<v Speaker 2>don't think the movie really sticks the landing on it.

1:24:24.720 --> 1:24:28.280
<v Speaker 2>But like Bella doesn't understand a world in which she

1:24:28.560 --> 1:24:32.439
<v Speaker 2>her needs are not constantly met because she grows up

1:24:32.479 --> 1:24:37.080
<v Speaker 2>with this immense privilege in her like question Mark, who

1:24:37.120 --> 1:24:39.000
<v Speaker 2>knows the amount of time this movie is supposed to

1:24:39.000 --> 1:24:41.479
<v Speaker 2>take place over, I have no fucking clue, But like

1:24:41.880 --> 1:24:46.240
<v Speaker 2>it's not until she has her political awakening and which

1:24:46.280 --> 1:24:49.880
<v Speaker 2>again I think is really badly done in this movie

1:24:49.880 --> 1:24:54.479
<v Speaker 2>with just like a shot of poverty, the cinematic shot

1:24:54.800 --> 1:24:59.920
<v Speaker 2>or whatever, but like that shot that like changes her

1:25:00.200 --> 1:25:04.160
<v Speaker 2>view of labor moving forward, and like I feel like

1:25:04.200 --> 1:25:07.240
<v Speaker 2>that culminates in like she has a job, she's a

1:25:07.280 --> 1:25:11.080
<v Speaker 2>sex worker. She understands the highs and lows that comes

1:25:11.120 --> 1:25:16.280
<v Speaker 2>with working in the service industry, and that culminates to

1:25:16.360 --> 1:25:21.200
<v Speaker 2>like when she sees her mom's ex husband, question Mark,

1:25:21.240 --> 1:25:25.640
<v Speaker 2>her father, her father, when she's married to her father.

1:25:25.479 --> 1:25:27.439
<v Speaker 1>Again, Yeah, her husband father.

1:25:27.640 --> 1:25:29.920
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of daddies in this movie. Yeah, but

1:25:30.040 --> 1:25:34.240
<v Speaker 2>like her husband is also her daddy, and her daddy

1:25:34.320 --> 1:25:37.720
<v Speaker 2>is also gone, so there's like there's a lot going on.

1:25:38.040 --> 1:25:42.000
<v Speaker 1>The TLC specials and the tale is oldest time when

1:25:42.000 --> 1:25:44.200
<v Speaker 1>your dad is your god and your dad is also

1:25:44.240 --> 1:25:45.320
<v Speaker 1>your husband.

1:25:45.479 --> 1:25:48.240
<v Speaker 3>Who among us, and you are also your baby, and.

1:25:48.160 --> 1:25:50.320
<v Speaker 1>You were also your own baby and your own mother,

1:25:50.640 --> 1:25:50.880
<v Speaker 1>but with.

1:25:51.040 --> 1:25:55.400
<v Speaker 2>Her biological dad technically Captain Blessington whatever the fucking Dave

1:25:55.479 --> 1:25:59.200
<v Speaker 2>is is like holding his employees at gunpoint and essentially

1:25:59.240 --> 1:26:02.080
<v Speaker 2>torturing them, and then she learns that her mother and

1:26:02.200 --> 1:26:05.639
<v Speaker 2>her body did the same thing. Like, I like that

1:26:05.880 --> 1:26:09.960
<v Speaker 2>is like a full circle on the labor discussion. And

1:26:10.120 --> 1:26:13.800
<v Speaker 2>I thought like in general, like it wasn't super dwelled on,

1:26:14.080 --> 1:26:17.800
<v Speaker 2>but I liked it on like further viewings, it's like

1:26:17.880 --> 1:26:21.080
<v Speaker 2>over the top and ridiculous, but you know, her views

1:26:21.080 --> 1:26:24.200
<v Speaker 2>on labor definitely evolve and change along with everything else,

1:26:24.200 --> 1:26:26.400
<v Speaker 2>which is again like why the more the more I

1:26:26.400 --> 1:26:28.479
<v Speaker 2>watch the movie, the more I'm like, I don't really

1:26:28.520 --> 1:26:32.800
<v Speaker 2>agree with the sex criticism. I could see a lot

1:26:32.840 --> 1:26:36.920
<v Speaker 2>of the visual criticism, like I get it if it's uncomfortable,

1:26:36.960 --> 1:26:38.800
<v Speaker 2>and like you think that that time can be better

1:26:38.880 --> 1:26:42.600
<v Speaker 2>used elsewhere, but like she's on a lot of journeys,

1:26:42.640 --> 1:26:44.960
<v Speaker 2>just they're not all visually.

1:26:45.080 --> 1:26:49.040
<v Speaker 1>As interesting as sex and naked bodies. Yeah, yeah, I

1:26:49.040 --> 1:26:52.120
<v Speaker 1>do think that the movie and we I think already

1:26:52.320 --> 1:26:54.760
<v Speaker 1>said this to some extent, but that the movie SU

1:26:54.760 --> 1:26:59.839
<v Speaker 1>spends too long on that chunk because there's no forward momentum.

1:26:59.880 --> 1:27:03.120
<v Speaker 1>For a while, is just like her learning about sex

1:27:03.120 --> 1:27:06.880
<v Speaker 1>and exploring her sexuality, and then by the time she

1:27:06.960 --> 1:27:10.680
<v Speaker 1>starts to like learn about philosophy and learn about socialism

1:27:10.720 --> 1:27:13.160
<v Speaker 1>and has her like political discovery.

1:27:12.720 --> 1:27:16.719
<v Speaker 2>It's like two hundred books later. But you see every

1:27:16.760 --> 1:27:18.040
<v Speaker 2>sexual encounter.

1:27:17.920 --> 1:27:21.240
<v Speaker 1>Right, I'm just like, uh, why spend so much time

1:27:21.360 --> 1:27:23.360
<v Speaker 1>on that, because to me, it would make sense if

1:27:23.400 --> 1:27:26.599
<v Speaker 1>it was like not in montage necessarily, but a few

1:27:26.640 --> 1:27:30.360
<v Speaker 1>minutes are spent on her sex life, and then a

1:27:30.479 --> 1:27:33.519
<v Speaker 1>few more minutes like it, but it just again, that

1:27:33.600 --> 1:27:37.080
<v Speaker 1>momentum comes to a screeching halt for like twenty minutes

1:27:37.120 --> 1:27:39.759
<v Speaker 1>while she's like out there fucking a bunch of people

1:27:39.800 --> 1:27:42.439
<v Speaker 1>or I guess mostly just the one guy. But in

1:27:42.479 --> 1:27:44.200
<v Speaker 1>any case, I just I feel like there was a

1:27:44.200 --> 1:27:47.720
<v Speaker 1>better way to use that time, and I wish that

1:27:47.840 --> 1:27:52.080
<v Speaker 1>there was more about her ARC that has her learning

1:27:52.120 --> 1:27:56.679
<v Speaker 1>about other things and expanding her mind starts happening sooner,

1:27:57.160 --> 1:28:03.320
<v Speaker 1>But instead it's like, no, she's having sex with a

1:28:03.760 --> 1:28:08.560
<v Speaker 1>shitty person, which also relatable. Who among us hasn't.

1:28:08.800 --> 1:28:12.360
<v Speaker 3>That's what I was gonna say is like, weirdly, I

1:28:12.400 --> 1:28:15.240
<v Speaker 3>felt fine with the amount of time that was spent

1:28:15.320 --> 1:28:18.120
<v Speaker 3>on her fucking this awful person, because like, it's fun

1:28:18.120 --> 1:28:21.200
<v Speaker 3>to watch people have sex. It's even fun to watch

1:28:21.280 --> 1:28:25.120
<v Speaker 3>people have sex that they probably shouldn't be having within certain.

1:28:24.880 --> 1:28:28.960
<v Speaker 2>Boundaries, right, which just like debatable within this movie.

1:28:29.000 --> 1:28:31.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, which is debatable with this movie. For sure. I

1:28:31.640 --> 1:28:36.559
<v Speaker 3>didn't long to spend more time with her like book

1:28:36.640 --> 1:28:39.639
<v Speaker 3>in hand, Like here's a montage of her like reading,

1:28:39.800 --> 1:28:41.840
<v Speaker 3>you know, like I didn't. I don't know if I

1:28:42.160 --> 1:28:45.880
<v Speaker 3>necessarily would. I mean sure, actually, like that sounds aesthetic

1:28:45.880 --> 1:28:47.280
<v Speaker 3>and amazing, and I would love to see like her

1:28:47.320 --> 1:28:52.280
<v Speaker 3>reading outfits. But I do think that more time could

1:28:52.320 --> 1:28:56.439
<v Speaker 3>have been spent kind of confronting head on the stuff

1:28:56.479 --> 1:29:01.080
<v Speaker 3>with God and like the stuff with her ultimate husband.

1:29:01.280 --> 1:29:04.519
<v Speaker 3>And how again, we mentioned that we just like forgave

1:29:04.560 --> 1:29:08.760
<v Speaker 3>all those people so immediately we were expected to, So

1:29:08.960 --> 1:29:12.120
<v Speaker 3>if anything, I think we could have cut away some

1:29:12.240 --> 1:29:14.519
<v Speaker 3>of that stuff, not because it's like offensive or whatever,

1:29:14.560 --> 1:29:18.200
<v Speaker 3>but because like there was so much that went unaddressed. Again,

1:29:18.360 --> 1:29:20.280
<v Speaker 3>despite the movie being twenty minutes too long.

1:29:20.640 --> 1:29:23.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, Like it's not that I want to see

1:29:23.200 --> 1:29:26.840
<v Speaker 2>montages of her reading it's that I would have preferred,

1:29:27.080 --> 1:29:32.639
<v Speaker 2>but more scenes where you see the result of that reading,

1:29:32.680 --> 1:29:35.240
<v Speaker 2>because that felt way more rushed.

1:29:35.720 --> 1:29:38.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, no, you're right. I mean I heard it linguistically

1:29:38.320 --> 1:29:41.080
<v Speaker 3>and I wasn't mad at it. I was like surprised

1:29:41.120 --> 1:29:44.000
<v Speaker 3>and delighted by it. But with more thought, and indeed,

1:29:44.040 --> 1:29:47.040
<v Speaker 3>I am becoming the madder at it. It's like she

1:29:47.320 --> 1:29:52.160
<v Speaker 3>went overnight from Goo Goo Gaga to like, I read

1:29:52.360 --> 1:29:56.960
<v Speaker 3>Nietzsche and you know, I am incorporating that vernacular into

1:29:57.080 --> 1:29:58.960
<v Speaker 3>the way that I talk every day. It was, Yeah,

1:29:59.040 --> 1:30:00.439
<v Speaker 3>it was overnight the movie.

1:30:00.520 --> 1:30:03.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, also to speak to the like why does she

1:30:03.960 --> 1:30:08.120
<v Speaker 1>so readily forgive these awful men, namely God and Max,

1:30:08.200 --> 1:30:10.479
<v Speaker 1>to the point where she agrees to marry Max. And

1:30:11.200 --> 1:30:13.920
<v Speaker 1>there is that exchange of dialogue where she says something

1:30:14.000 --> 1:30:17.719
<v Speaker 1>like I've been a whore, you understand Cox for money

1:30:17.760 --> 1:30:20.120
<v Speaker 1>inside me, which is a hilarious way to phrase that,

1:30:20.760 --> 1:30:23.120
<v Speaker 1>And she's like, are you okay with that? Does that

1:30:23.280 --> 1:30:28.240
<v Speaker 1>challenge the desire for ownership that men have? And Max responds,

1:30:28.680 --> 1:30:31.479
<v Speaker 1>I find myself merely jealous of the men's time with you,

1:30:31.720 --> 1:30:35.519
<v Speaker 1>rather than any moral aspersion against you. It is your body.

1:30:35.640 --> 1:30:38.800
<v Speaker 1>Bella Baxter yours to give freely, and I'm like, okay, good,

1:30:38.960 --> 1:30:41.320
<v Speaker 1>good attitude to have. But that doesn't mean you have

1:30:41.360 --> 1:30:44.479
<v Speaker 1>to marry him because you said that. But it's kind

1:30:44.479 --> 1:30:47.960
<v Speaker 1>of suggested that that's her train of thought because the

1:30:48.040 --> 1:30:51.679
<v Speaker 1>scene after that is them getting married. So I'm like, right,

1:30:52.080 --> 1:30:53.360
<v Speaker 1>you don't have to marry him.

1:30:53.960 --> 1:30:56.600
<v Speaker 2>I can get on fervid that as far as like,

1:30:57.280 --> 1:31:00.599
<v Speaker 2>the first time that marriage is floated, she has no

1:31:00.840 --> 1:31:04.160
<v Speaker 2>say in it, right, She's presented with like the illusion

1:31:04.200 --> 1:31:06.680
<v Speaker 2>of choice because she is not able to consent to

1:31:06.800 --> 1:31:08.639
<v Speaker 2>marriage nor sex because she's.

1:31:08.439 --> 1:31:10.200
<v Speaker 1>Like five, a toddler.

1:31:10.479 --> 1:31:12.479
<v Speaker 2>But when it comes back around, yeah, I think that

1:31:12.520 --> 1:31:14.559
<v Speaker 2>there could have been another way to get that across,

1:31:14.960 --> 1:31:17.360
<v Speaker 2>and ultimately she doesn't go through with it, But like,

1:31:17.479 --> 1:31:21.320
<v Speaker 2>I do like that the second time it is very

1:31:21.360 --> 1:31:25.479
<v Speaker 2>firmly her choice. That's true, but again it is like

1:31:25.640 --> 1:31:30.439
<v Speaker 2>choosing something somewhat conventional. But again it makes more sense

1:31:30.720 --> 1:31:34.560
<v Speaker 2>for me in the book ending, where like the advantage

1:31:34.560 --> 1:31:37.400
<v Speaker 2>of being married to him in Victorian times is that

1:31:37.640 --> 1:31:40.000
<v Speaker 2>he is also a doctor and they can work together,

1:31:41.600 --> 1:31:44.040
<v Speaker 2>and like, just based on what we see of Bella Baxter,

1:31:44.200 --> 1:31:48.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm assuming that any marriage she's in would not be monogamous.

1:31:48.920 --> 1:31:52.120
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that she's the closed marriage type. So

1:31:52.240 --> 1:31:54.559
<v Speaker 2>like I wasn't super bothered by it. I just was

1:31:54.600 --> 1:31:59.120
<v Speaker 2>more like bummed out by but also felt like, oh, yeah,

1:31:59.200 --> 1:32:01.639
<v Speaker 2>that's the thing where it's like you marry the first

1:32:01.680 --> 1:32:05.439
<v Speaker 2>person who like kind of respects you, which totally you know,

1:32:05.840 --> 1:32:08.040
<v Speaker 2>like that certainly does happen.

1:32:08.680 --> 1:32:11.639
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, yeah it's happening left right and center.

1:32:11.720 --> 1:32:16.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah it was. It did give Stockholm syndrome a little bit.

1:32:16.880 --> 1:32:20.840
<v Speaker 3>Another b protagonist, miss Bell from Beauty and the Beast,

1:32:20.880 --> 1:32:24.040
<v Speaker 3>it was a little bit a little bit that, but

1:32:24.479 --> 1:32:26.200
<v Speaker 3>that dude was less hot than the Beast.

1:32:26.320 --> 1:32:30.840
<v Speaker 2>So anyway, I think Max, like God, is also sort

1:32:30.840 --> 1:32:32.439
<v Speaker 2>of let off the hook, like we were talking about

1:32:32.439 --> 1:32:33.840
<v Speaker 2>this earlier where he's just like.

1:32:34.160 --> 1:32:35.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you know, right right.

1:32:35.960 --> 1:32:39.160
<v Speaker 2>But like I feel like the movie forgives him for

1:32:39.960 --> 1:32:45.680
<v Speaker 2>willingly and with full understanding, participating in trapping her and

1:32:45.760 --> 1:32:49.120
<v Speaker 2>treating her like property. Yeah yeah, and lusting after her

1:32:49.160 --> 1:32:51.640
<v Speaker 2>when she was a baby. It doesn't just feel like

1:32:51.760 --> 1:32:56.160
<v Speaker 2>Bella says, I forgive you. It also feels like the

1:32:56.200 --> 1:32:59.040
<v Speaker 2>movie is like, and this is the guy for her,

1:32:59.280 --> 1:33:01.840
<v Speaker 2>and I just like, again, I'm like, I just think

1:33:02.000 --> 1:33:05.640
<v Speaker 2>maybe if you have a woman co writer that is

1:33:06.479 --> 1:33:07.759
<v Speaker 2>not the result.

1:33:08.320 --> 1:33:08.799
<v Speaker 3>Agree.

1:33:09.240 --> 1:33:14.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I also wish that because we see Felicity at

1:33:14.280 --> 1:33:17.000
<v Speaker 1>the end too, when they're like in the little courtyard

1:33:17.160 --> 1:33:20.560
<v Speaker 1>and the General goat Man is like bah.

1:33:20.439 --> 1:33:22.599
<v Speaker 2>General goat Man is a great character name.

1:33:24.400 --> 1:33:29.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and then missus prim is being nicer and Max

1:33:29.439 --> 1:33:32.080
<v Speaker 1>is there just sort of like chilling, and then Felicity

1:33:32.680 --> 1:33:34.800
<v Speaker 1>was also there, and I'm like, Okay, well, what's going

1:33:34.840 --> 1:33:37.799
<v Speaker 1>on with Bella and Felicity? Are they friends? Is Bella

1:33:38.040 --> 1:33:40.920
<v Speaker 1>Felicity's mentor? Like I want to know a little bit

1:33:40.960 --> 1:33:45.280
<v Speaker 1>more about that too, Okay, Anyway, is there anything else

1:33:45.600 --> 1:33:46.880
<v Speaker 1>anyone wants to talk about?

1:33:46.960 --> 1:33:50.120
<v Speaker 2>I feel like we cracked it, We figured it out,

1:33:50.280 --> 1:33:51.680
<v Speaker 2>we cracked it.

1:33:51.760 --> 1:33:54.040
<v Speaker 1>I also feel like we've barely scratched the surface of

1:33:54.080 --> 1:33:56.320
<v Speaker 1>this very complex movie.

1:33:56.600 --> 1:33:58.800
<v Speaker 2>But actually, the last thing I wanted to say is

1:33:58.880 --> 1:34:02.360
<v Speaker 2>like I tried to research. I mean, it would be

1:34:02.920 --> 1:34:06.080
<v Speaker 2>an infinity project to try to track down all of

1:34:06.120 --> 1:34:09.240
<v Speaker 2>the analysis of this movie, and there's just too fucking

1:34:09.320 --> 1:34:12.200
<v Speaker 2>much of it. Like we've talked about, there was a

1:34:12.200 --> 1:34:15.600
<v Speaker 2>fair amount of backlash to the protracted sex scenes with

1:34:16.439 --> 1:34:20.519
<v Speaker 2>a presumably underage character and all of the stuff that

1:34:20.600 --> 1:34:23.519
<v Speaker 2>came with that. I also found a number of trans

1:34:23.560 --> 1:34:27.479
<v Speaker 2>writers that were very pro this movie, reading it as

1:34:27.840 --> 1:34:33.040
<v Speaker 2>a resurrection within a familiar but new body and like

1:34:33.120 --> 1:34:37.000
<v Speaker 2>navigating identity inside of a new body and a new

1:34:37.040 --> 1:34:39.639
<v Speaker 2>identity inside of a body that is familiar but new

1:34:39.680 --> 1:34:42.519
<v Speaker 2>and like. So I just wanted to acknowledge that read

1:34:42.560 --> 1:34:44.120
<v Speaker 2>of the movie, which I had heard about but I

1:34:44.120 --> 1:34:47.840
<v Speaker 2>hadn't like, actually spent any time reading before prepping for

1:34:47.880 --> 1:34:50.360
<v Speaker 2>this episode. So we can link to several of those

1:34:50.439 --> 1:34:51.559
<v Speaker 2>essays as well.

1:34:52.160 --> 1:34:55.040
<v Speaker 3>I like knowing that because I don't know if I'm

1:34:55.160 --> 1:34:59.280
<v Speaker 3>just in my like optimism era or what, but I

1:34:59.479 --> 1:35:06.320
<v Speaker 3>think it's nice to find excuses to appreciate a piece

1:35:06.360 --> 1:35:09.920
<v Speaker 3>of art that like a fuck ton of work went into,

1:35:10.680 --> 1:35:13.800
<v Speaker 3>even if there are critiques that are, yeah, you know

1:35:13.800 --> 1:35:16.759
<v Speaker 3>what I mean, Like I think for me, the bottom

1:35:16.840 --> 1:35:20.120
<v Speaker 3>line of this movie is like your ghost Land. The

1:35:20.160 --> 1:35:25.559
<v Speaker 3>Moost is a little jerkin' off little boy. He loves

1:35:25.560 --> 1:35:29.200
<v Speaker 3>a stunt. He is an edge lord for me. He

1:35:29.400 --> 1:35:32.519
<v Speaker 3>loves to like provoke, but not in the way that

1:35:32.560 --> 1:35:38.200
<v Speaker 3>he thinks he's provoking. And he's asking us to forgive

1:35:38.640 --> 1:35:42.960
<v Speaker 3>a lot of nonsense because we're so like caught up

1:35:43.600 --> 1:35:47.599
<v Speaker 3>in that provocation and at the end of the day

1:35:47.800 --> 1:35:51.519
<v Speaker 3>like it worked because I am actually at the end

1:35:51.520 --> 1:35:54.519
<v Speaker 3>of the day forgiving a lot, but not for the

1:35:54.560 --> 1:35:57.800
<v Speaker 3>reasons why he wants me to make those pardons, if

1:35:57.840 --> 1:36:01.120
<v Speaker 3>that makes sense. Yeah, art is so up to interpretation,

1:36:01.400 --> 1:36:04.000
<v Speaker 3>Like because there was no woman in the room, I

1:36:04.040 --> 1:36:07.559
<v Speaker 3>don't think the movie he intended to make is a

1:36:07.640 --> 1:36:11.559
<v Speaker 3>landing in the same way on all the women viewers

1:36:11.600 --> 1:36:12.559
<v Speaker 3>who are going to see it.

1:36:12.840 --> 1:36:13.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

1:36:13.280 --> 1:36:16.160
<v Speaker 3>I mean there was Emmastone as an executive producer for sure,

1:36:16.160 --> 1:36:17.720
<v Speaker 3>but I'm talking about like in the writing of it and.

1:36:17.680 --> 1:36:19.479
<v Speaker 2>Such still like overwhelmingly men.

1:36:19.680 --> 1:36:23.439
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, yeah, And so like, in spite of all that,

1:36:24.280 --> 1:36:28.519
<v Speaker 3>I do like that there's so much to find in

1:36:28.560 --> 1:36:33.719
<v Speaker 3>this movie that is positive, empowering, stylish feminists, et cetera,

1:36:34.400 --> 1:36:38.559
<v Speaker 3>and that reflects well on the viewers, even if the

1:36:38.600 --> 1:36:42.280
<v Speaker 3>people who made it didn't engineer those things. If that

1:36:42.320 --> 1:36:42.760
<v Speaker 3>makes sense.

1:36:43.360 --> 1:36:47.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah. For me, the bottom line is the movie

1:36:47.800 --> 1:36:55.479
<v Speaker 1>would have benefited from more perspective from women on the

1:36:55.520 --> 1:36:59.640
<v Speaker 1>storytelling and creative end of things, because the things that

1:36:59.680 --> 1:37:05.640
<v Speaker 1>I think this movie mishandles are things that if a

1:37:05.720 --> 1:37:09.880
<v Speaker 1>woman creative was involved, she would have been like no, now,

1:37:11.160 --> 1:37:13.960
<v Speaker 1>let's not do that, or let's like, you know, make

1:37:14.000 --> 1:37:19.720
<v Speaker 1>this adaptation change to kind of modernize this or make

1:37:19.800 --> 1:37:25.000
<v Speaker 1>it more intersectional, or you know, whatever needed to happen.

1:37:25.320 --> 1:37:30.960
<v Speaker 1>And instead it's just so many men making choices and

1:37:31.080 --> 1:37:34.240
<v Speaker 1>in some cases like they handled things well. Again, like

1:37:34.280 --> 1:37:38.680
<v Speaker 1>the way that many of the male characters are behaving

1:37:38.920 --> 1:37:42.639
<v Speaker 1>in their conduct as it relates to their interactions with women.

1:37:43.360 --> 1:37:47.599
<v Speaker 1>I think that all tracks very well, but other things

1:37:47.960 --> 1:37:50.479
<v Speaker 1>not so much. I will say that, and I think

1:37:50.479 --> 1:37:52.320
<v Speaker 1>we touched on this a little bit already, But something

1:37:52.320 --> 1:37:56.679
<v Speaker 1>I really appreciated is that because of Bella's baby brain,

1:37:57.640 --> 1:38:00.599
<v Speaker 1>she moves through the world with this like sense of

1:38:01.280 --> 1:38:06.720
<v Speaker 1>adventure and wonder and like shamelessness and willingness to indulge

1:38:07.120 --> 1:38:11.600
<v Speaker 1>that most adults, especially women, are sort of like conditioned

1:38:11.680 --> 1:38:16.839
<v Speaker 1>and societally forced to unlearn because of like propriety and politeness,

1:38:16.920 --> 1:38:20.280
<v Speaker 1>especially in this like Victorian era. So the fact that

1:38:20.320 --> 1:38:23.840
<v Speaker 1>you see this woman and even though she's like again,

1:38:23.880 --> 1:38:26.599
<v Speaker 1>baby brain for a lot of this, but someone who

1:38:27.280 --> 1:38:30.400
<v Speaker 1>appears on the surface to be a woman, you see her,

1:38:30.800 --> 1:38:34.160
<v Speaker 1>you know, eating whatever delicious things she wants whenever she wants.

1:38:34.240 --> 1:38:37.840
<v Speaker 1>You see her fucking whenever she wants and whoever she wants.

1:38:37.920 --> 1:38:41.520
<v Speaker 1>You see her just being curious and asking whatever questions

1:38:41.600 --> 1:38:44.800
<v Speaker 1>she wants and rejecting the notion of the status quo

1:38:44.960 --> 1:38:48.120
<v Speaker 1>a lot of the time, and challenging the power and

1:38:48.160 --> 1:38:50.559
<v Speaker 1>behavior of men, and all of these things. We're just

1:38:50.680 --> 1:38:54.880
<v Speaker 1>very refreshing to see because I too like to eat

1:38:54.920 --> 1:38:57.880
<v Speaker 1>delicious things and speak my mind.

1:38:58.080 --> 1:39:01.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly, there's like something to learn from Baby Brain.

1:39:01.040 --> 1:39:03.200
<v Speaker 3>And it's like, is it baby brain or is it

1:39:03.240 --> 1:39:07.000
<v Speaker 3>just unmitigated brain? You know, like, yeah, and that's an

1:39:07.000 --> 1:39:08.280
<v Speaker 3>interesting question to ponder.

1:39:08.640 --> 1:39:11.800
<v Speaker 2>I think that. Yeah. Like where I divert from the

1:39:11.840 --> 1:39:15.479
<v Speaker 2>Baby Brain critique is that this movie is very much

1:39:15.600 --> 1:39:19.439
<v Speaker 2>for adults. I don't think that this is a movie

1:39:19.479 --> 1:39:24.120
<v Speaker 2>that is being marketed at kids or young people. I

1:39:24.160 --> 1:39:26.639
<v Speaker 2>mean not to say that like people coming of age

1:39:26.680 --> 1:39:29.080
<v Speaker 2>won't find this movie. That almost always happens, but it's

1:39:29.080 --> 1:39:31.880
<v Speaker 2>an R rated movie. I think it is like safe

1:39:31.960 --> 1:39:35.360
<v Speaker 2>to assume that the target audience of this movie knows

1:39:36.320 --> 1:39:40.080
<v Speaker 2>not to fuck a baby. But if that creative choice

1:39:40.200 --> 1:39:44.280
<v Speaker 2>is removed from the movie, everything changes and a lot

1:39:44.320 --> 1:39:47.160
<v Speaker 2>of the commentary becomes impossible. I think, like what bugs

1:39:47.200 --> 1:39:48.720
<v Speaker 2>me about this I think there's a lot to love

1:39:48.760 --> 1:39:51.960
<v Speaker 2>about this movie. I ended up liking it. I like,

1:39:52.000 --> 1:39:53.840
<v Speaker 2>the first time I watched it, I didn't like it.

1:39:53.880 --> 1:39:57.240
<v Speaker 2>Now I'm like, well, I watch it again anytime soon. No,

1:39:57.320 --> 1:39:59.679
<v Speaker 2>I've seen it three times. I'd like, if there's anything

1:39:59.720 --> 1:40:02.000
<v Speaker 2>else to had from this movie, it will never reach me.

1:40:02.320 --> 1:40:05.719
<v Speaker 2>But I ended up liking it more than I originally did.

1:40:06.200 --> 1:40:08.320
<v Speaker 2>But I think like the big thing for me here

1:40:08.720 --> 1:40:12.559
<v Speaker 2>that I like stand by of like original viewing Jamie,

1:40:12.840 --> 1:40:17.960
<v Speaker 2>is that there is like a clear example within this

1:40:18.080 --> 1:40:20.960
<v Speaker 2>director's body of work that when he is centering women,

1:40:21.360 --> 1:40:24.120
<v Speaker 2>he needs a woman in the writing room for it

1:40:24.280 --> 1:40:28.920
<v Speaker 2>to translate. And that's like very clear between his last

1:40:28.920 --> 1:40:32.479
<v Speaker 2>movie and this movie. I think the Favorite in general

1:40:32.640 --> 1:40:35.360
<v Speaker 2>is a stronger work and has more to say about women,

1:40:36.160 --> 1:40:39.400
<v Speaker 2>very likely because of the one differential, which is that

1:40:39.479 --> 1:40:41.840
<v Speaker 2>it was adapted by a work from a woman by

1:40:41.920 --> 1:40:44.479
<v Speaker 2>a woman, not saying that you have to be a

1:40:44.520 --> 1:40:48.719
<v Speaker 2>woman to have something interesting to say, but it certainly

1:40:48.720 --> 1:40:50.760
<v Speaker 2>doesn't hurt. And I think your ghost laid the most

1:40:50.760 --> 1:40:55.880
<v Speaker 2>in Tony mcnamaraned a woman in the room to maximize

1:40:56.920 --> 1:41:01.519
<v Speaker 2>their joint male sleigh. Okay, that's all I have to say.

1:41:01.520 --> 1:41:04.280
<v Speaker 2>About this movie. I refuse to say another word. It

1:41:04.360 --> 1:41:06.280
<v Speaker 2>passes the Bechdel test for sure.

1:41:06.800 --> 1:41:11.800
<v Speaker 1>Yes, quite a bit between a number of different combinations

1:41:11.800 --> 1:41:16.160
<v Speaker 1>of characters. Bella and Martha are talking about masturbating in philosophy,

1:41:16.479 --> 1:41:19.479
<v Speaker 1>my two favorite things. Ella and Twinette are talking about

1:41:19.840 --> 1:41:24.639
<v Speaker 1>socialism and their C section scars. Bella and Madame Swiney

1:41:24.760 --> 1:41:29.000
<v Speaker 1>are talking about various things. Yeah. So there are many

1:41:29.000 --> 1:41:33.040
<v Speaker 1>conversations that pass the Bechdel test, although so many of

1:41:33.080 --> 1:41:38.920
<v Speaker 1>the interactions are between Bella and men, So there's that.

1:41:39.640 --> 1:41:42.240
<v Speaker 3>But it is cool that when those conversations aren't happening

1:41:42.320 --> 1:41:44.360
<v Speaker 3>and she's talking to women, they're not talking about men.

1:41:44.479 --> 1:41:46.200
<v Speaker 3>Mostly they almost never are.

1:41:46.320 --> 1:41:49.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, the second men are gone, Bella is not

1:41:49.520 --> 1:41:50.400
<v Speaker 2>thinking about them.

1:41:50.520 --> 1:41:52.759
<v Speaker 3>Out of sight, out of mind, Yeah, truly.

1:41:53.400 --> 1:41:57.240
<v Speaker 2>Bella Baxter ultimately like an amazing character. I love her.

1:41:57.720 --> 1:41:59.559
<v Speaker 3>I love her, and that out of sight, out of

1:41:59.560 --> 1:42:02.160
<v Speaker 3>mind thing reflects another thing that's great about her, which

1:42:02.200 --> 1:42:07.400
<v Speaker 3>is she is so present. Yes, yeah, which is aspirational.

1:42:07.640 --> 1:42:09.360
<v Speaker 1>She's noticing things.

1:42:09.120 --> 1:42:10.479
<v Speaker 3>She's realizing things.

1:42:11.840 --> 1:42:15.680
<v Speaker 1>When women realize things, it's beautiful. It's huge for us

1:42:15.840 --> 1:42:18.600
<v Speaker 1>as far as our nipple scale goes. So rating the

1:42:18.640 --> 1:42:21.799
<v Speaker 1>movie on a scale of zero two five nipples based

1:42:21.840 --> 1:42:26.120
<v Speaker 1>on examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, I'll

1:42:26.160 --> 1:42:30.640
<v Speaker 1>go I'm somewhere around like a four nipple rating. I

1:42:30.680 --> 1:42:35.840
<v Speaker 1>think the movie does accomplish a lot. I think its

1:42:36.120 --> 1:42:41.519
<v Speaker 1>shortcomings are fairly obvious to me, and again wouldn't have

1:42:41.600 --> 1:42:45.519
<v Speaker 1>to be shortcomings if they had more meaningfully included more

1:42:45.600 --> 1:42:51.040
<v Speaker 1>women in the creative and storytelling process. But the movie

1:42:51.080 --> 1:42:55.920
<v Speaker 1>has a clear agenda, which is to show the kind

1:42:55.960 --> 1:43:01.400
<v Speaker 1>of growth and liberation of a woman and to comment

1:43:01.600 --> 1:43:06.920
<v Speaker 1>on toxic male behavior, especially the way they perceive and

1:43:06.960 --> 1:43:10.280
<v Speaker 1>treat women. So I think the movie is doing a

1:43:10.320 --> 1:43:14.320
<v Speaker 1>lot of those things pretty well, and I'll give it

1:43:14.720 --> 1:43:19.800
<v Speaker 1>four nipples. Pray, Pray, thank you. My nipples are going

1:43:19.800 --> 1:43:24.840
<v Speaker 1>to Susie Bumba, who plays Antwinete, or just Twinett is

1:43:24.880 --> 1:43:28.840
<v Speaker 1>probably a nickname for Antwinette. I'm guessing I'll give one

1:43:28.880 --> 1:43:36.600
<v Speaker 1>to Martha, i will give one to Madam Swiney, and

1:43:36.640 --> 1:43:38.479
<v Speaker 1>I'll give one to I'm a Stone.

1:43:39.080 --> 1:43:42.040
<v Speaker 2>The end, I'm going to get fractional. I'm going to

1:43:42.120 --> 1:43:44.360
<v Speaker 2>do three point seven five, partially just to kind of

1:43:44.360 --> 1:43:46.760
<v Speaker 2>be a bitch. I think that like I'm gonna go

1:43:46.800 --> 1:43:49.000
<v Speaker 2>three point seven five just because I don't want to

1:43:49.040 --> 1:43:53.320
<v Speaker 2>give four men navigating their way around telling a story

1:43:53.360 --> 1:43:58.160
<v Speaker 2>about woman's awakening. Four I refuse to do it. I cannot.

1:43:58.439 --> 1:43:59.040
<v Speaker 1>That's fair.

1:43:59.160 --> 1:44:03.640
<v Speaker 2>But I think with that limitation, there is still a

1:44:03.640 --> 1:44:06.639
<v Speaker 2>lot going on in this movie that most movies don't

1:44:06.680 --> 1:44:11.040
<v Speaker 2>even bother with. And I think that Emma Stone's performance

1:44:11.120 --> 1:44:14.439
<v Speaker 2>and involvement in production, I think we should always mention

1:44:14.600 --> 1:44:17.040
<v Speaker 2>when the star of a movie is also a producer,

1:44:17.080 --> 1:44:18.760
<v Speaker 2>because I feel like you can really feel it in

1:44:18.800 --> 1:44:21.120
<v Speaker 2>the movie and it answers a lot of questions about

1:44:21.160 --> 1:44:24.160
<v Speaker 2>like we know that Emma's Stone would not be put

1:44:24.240 --> 1:44:26.719
<v Speaker 2>into a situation to do a sex scene she didn't

1:44:26.720 --> 1:44:29.800
<v Speaker 2>want to do because she is in charge, you know.

1:44:29.840 --> 1:44:32.519
<v Speaker 2>And that's an oversimplification, but stuff like that, I think

1:44:32.560 --> 1:44:34.800
<v Speaker 2>that this movie has a lot going for it, and

1:44:35.120 --> 1:44:38.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, a woman's socialist awakening. You know, I can't

1:44:38.280 --> 1:44:39.400
<v Speaker 2>hate that movie.

1:44:39.360 --> 1:44:42.000
<v Speaker 1>And I won't true.

1:44:41.720 --> 1:44:46.160
<v Speaker 2>So I'll go three point seventy five and I'm gonna

1:44:46.400 --> 1:44:50.120
<v Speaker 2>just make it clean. I'm going to give all of

1:44:50.200 --> 1:44:55.439
<v Speaker 2>my nipples to Catherine Hunter, who plays Swiney, just because

1:44:55.520 --> 1:44:58.720
<v Speaker 2>I think she is such an incredible character actor, and

1:44:58.880 --> 1:45:02.599
<v Speaker 2>you should watch the Joel Cohen Macbeth where she plays

1:45:02.600 --> 1:45:03.080
<v Speaker 2>the witches.

1:45:03.240 --> 1:45:05.400
<v Speaker 1>Ah, yes, Amanda, how about you.

1:45:06.080 --> 1:45:09.280
<v Speaker 3>One of my best friends has a third nipple, So

1:45:09.479 --> 1:45:14.160
<v Speaker 3>I think I'm gonna give three full size nipples and

1:45:14.360 --> 1:45:18.000
<v Speaker 3>one third nipple nipple if that's okay?

1:45:18.160 --> 1:45:19.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yes, please.

1:45:19.760 --> 1:45:23.720
<v Speaker 3>And I'm gonna give them all as well to one

1:45:23.760 --> 1:45:28.879
<v Speaker 3>single person. Holly Waddington, the costume designer. Yeah.

1:45:28.920 --> 1:45:32.080
<v Speaker 2>Oh yes, Oscar winner Holly Waddington.

1:45:32.320 --> 1:45:36.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, like truly life changing for me.

1:45:38.080 --> 1:45:40.680
<v Speaker 1>She did a great job. Well, Amanda, thank you so

1:45:40.760 --> 1:45:42.360
<v Speaker 1>much for joining us for this discussion.

1:45:42.640 --> 1:45:45.759
<v Speaker 2>What a blast we did it. We figured it out.

1:45:45.800 --> 1:45:47.080
<v Speaker 1>We cracked the code.

1:45:47.200 --> 1:45:51.400
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, what a distinct pleasure. Thank you so much.

1:45:52.439 --> 1:45:54.400
<v Speaker 2>Where can we find you online? Where can we buy

1:45:54.400 --> 1:45:55.960
<v Speaker 2>your new book? Tell us everything?

1:45:56.240 --> 1:45:59.920
<v Speaker 3>Oh that's so nice. So my book is available April ninth,

1:46:00.040 --> 1:46:03.519
<v Speaker 3>wherever you buy books and hardback ebook audiobook. I read

1:46:03.520 --> 1:46:07.360
<v Speaker 3>it myself, and you can find my podcast Sounds Like

1:46:07.400 --> 1:46:11.040
<v Speaker 3>a Cult on all major podcast platforms. Episodes come out

1:46:11.080 --> 1:46:15.400
<v Speaker 3>on Tuesdays, and stay tuned because these two right here

1:46:15.520 --> 1:46:18.240
<v Speaker 3>are gonna come on for an episode on Sounds Like

1:46:18.280 --> 1:46:22.760
<v Speaker 3>a Cult whose topic we're still noodling. It's a show

1:46:22.880 --> 1:46:25.280
<v Speaker 3>about the modern day cults we all follow, and we're

1:46:25.400 --> 1:46:27.679
<v Speaker 3>still debating between the cult of Shrek and the cult

1:46:27.680 --> 1:46:30.880
<v Speaker 3>of Leo DiCaprio. There is a right answer. So far,

1:46:31.200 --> 1:46:35.400
<v Speaker 3>the listeners have voted for the wrong answer. But I

1:46:35.439 --> 1:46:40.479
<v Speaker 3>got so many dms specifically requesting the right answer that

1:46:41.240 --> 1:46:43.600
<v Speaker 3>who knows, we might we might have to stop in

1:46:43.640 --> 1:46:46.599
<v Speaker 3>the middle of the episode and end up doing who knows,

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<v Speaker 3>So anyway, that sounds like a cult. And then I

1:46:50.360 --> 1:46:54.519
<v Speaker 3>am reluctantly on Instagram at Amanda Underscore Motel and I

1:46:54.560 --> 1:46:56.639
<v Speaker 3>have a substack very good.

1:46:56.920 --> 1:47:00.920
<v Speaker 2>You can find us on Instagram and some Timestell Twitter,

1:47:01.400 --> 1:47:06.240
<v Speaker 2>at Bechdel Cast. Individually, we are at jamiechrist Superstar and

1:47:06.360 --> 1:47:10.559
<v Speaker 2>at Caitlin Tourande on Instagram, and you can join our

1:47:10.600 --> 1:47:13.479
<v Speaker 2>Patreon aka Matreon. We're for five dollars a month. You

1:47:13.520 --> 1:47:16.760
<v Speaker 2>can get two bonus episodes and access to over one

1:47:16.840 --> 1:47:18.960
<v Speaker 2>hundred and fifty episodes of back catalog.

1:47:19.160 --> 1:47:24.000
<v Speaker 1>Sleigh, that's right. You can buy our merch at teapublic

1:47:24.040 --> 1:47:28.960
<v Speaker 1>dot com, slash the Bechdel Cast, and you can see

1:47:29.040 --> 1:47:33.799
<v Speaker 1>us live on our Shrektanner tour in May in various

1:47:34.160 --> 1:47:36.720
<v Speaker 1>cities abroad for US.

1:47:36.720 --> 1:47:40.240
<v Speaker 2>Yes, in the UK and Dublin. Oh that's huge, So.

1:47:40.240 --> 1:47:42.920
<v Speaker 1>Go to our link tree link tree slash Bechdel Cast

1:47:43.280 --> 1:47:48.200
<v Speaker 1>for tickets to those shows. And with that a Google

1:47:48.280 --> 1:47:49.480
<v Speaker 1>Goga Bye bye.

1:47:49.680 --> 1:47:53.120
<v Speaker 2>Goog goga wineglass clink. We did it, ladies. The man's

1:47:53.120 --> 1:48:03.120
<v Speaker 2>a goat dundu and let's go goats bye.

1:48:03.200 --> 1:48:06.479
<v Speaker 1>The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by

1:48:06.560 --> 1:48:10.439
<v Speaker 1>Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited

1:48:10.560 --> 1:48:13.479
<v Speaker 1>by mo La Boord. Our theme song was composed by

1:48:13.520 --> 1:48:17.800
<v Speaker 1>Mike Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskressensky. Our logo in

1:48:17.920 --> 1:48:21.240
<v Speaker 1>merch is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks

1:48:21.240 --> 1:48:25.439
<v Speaker 1>to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please

1:48:25.520 --> 1:48:27.840
<v Speaker 1>visit Linktree slash Bechdel Cast