Speaker 1: On the bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women inum, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?
Speaker 1: Or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best
Speaker 1: start changing it with the bel Cast, a podcast after
Speaker 1: five years releases It's four million episode, but the twist
Speaker 1: this time it's about the weirdest ship I've ever seen
Speaker 1: in my life? Would you like to know more? Honestly?
Speaker 1: Based on that? Um? No, I'm good, okay, exactly exactly
Speaker 1: if only we had known. Welcome to the Bextel Cast.
Speaker 1: I'm Gammie Lad, I'm Caitlin Darante and this is our
Speaker 1: podcast where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens,
Speaker 1: using the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point. Simply, Jamie,
Speaker 1: I would like to know more? What is the Actel test?
Speaker 1: The Bechtel test is a media metric invented by Weir
Speaker 1: cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test. Would
Speaker 1: you like to know more? I guess please? For our purposes,
Speaker 1: the Bechdel test requires that two characters of a marginalized
Speaker 1: gender with names speak to each other about something other
Speaker 1: than men I honestly, I am not sure if it
Speaker 1: happens in this movie or not. So confused was I
Speaker 1: by the movie? Would you like to know more? Uh? No,
Speaker 1: I'm good for now. Okay, well, Jamie, you're a natural
Speaker 1: at that. Yeah, I'm a I'm a natural propagandists. Good
Speaker 1: to know? Which is good to know? I okay, wait,
Speaker 1: uh this is this is going to pass the Bechtel test.
Speaker 1: Did you notice that there's a golden girl in Starship Troopers?
Speaker 1: I didn't notice until it was pointed out to me
Speaker 1: by this video essay that send me the link to,
Speaker 1: which was I found very helpful. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I didn't notice because, like, I think the
Speaker 1: makeup department makes her face looks somewhat disfigured or something,
Speaker 1: and then she's also wearing these like goggli I believe
Speaker 1: this is Yeah. I I wasn't sure if we were
Speaker 1: supposed to think her character was blind. I wasn't totally sure.
Speaker 1: I think that that might have been the implication. But
Speaker 1: either way, Rue McClanahan is in the damn movie playing
Speaker 1: a mean science teacher who's like, dissect this bug, like
Speaker 1: I mean that in a good woman in Stem though
Speaker 1: a woman. There's okay, there's a lot of this. This
Speaker 1: episode is like the case against women in stem Uh
Speaker 1: when it's used for fascism. So yeah, this is the
Speaker 1: Starship Troopers episode of the Bechtel Cast, and um, listen,
Speaker 1: bear with us because we were not expecting this movie. No,
Speaker 1: we weren't excited to discuss. So let's introduce our guest.
Speaker 1: He is an actor, a comedian. You know him from
Speaker 1: Astronomy Club on Netflix and as the co host of
Speaker 1: the podcast Black Men Can't Jump in Hollywood. It's Jonathan Braylock.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. It's exciting. Thanks
Speaker 1: for being here. Thank you for bringing up this terrifying movie.
Speaker 1: It was on your list, so it seems like you
Speaker 1: guys it was. Yes, it feels kind of random, But
Speaker 1: we've gotten this request a bunch of times, and now
Speaker 1: I I now, having seen it, I understand why. Even
Speaker 1: less I was gonna say, why why have you gotten
Speaker 1: the requests? I wonder if I have a I guess,
Speaker 1: I guess I have a couple of theories. But I mean,
Speaker 1: literally every movie ever made, including dozens we've never heard of,
Speaker 1: we've gotten requests for. But this one came up enough
Speaker 1: that we like, like we like added it to a
Speaker 1: list and everything. So I people who have requested this movie,
Speaker 1: I did demand an explanation. Jonathan, what's your history with
Speaker 1: with this movie? Well? It's interesting because, like I've said
Speaker 1: this on my podcast, but like when I was growing up,
Speaker 1: I wasn't really allowed to watch rated our movies for
Speaker 1: a while, and so like any time I saw what
Speaker 1: it was either like a TV version of it, which
Speaker 1: is like edited down but still kind of pretty graphic,
Speaker 1: like verbal cop comes to mind and that kind of sense.
Speaker 1: Same director, Yeah, exactly, like just hyper violent. But I
Speaker 1: was super into sci fi, so I always wanted to
Speaker 1: watch this movie, and I think I wasn't allowed to
Speaker 1: when it had come out, But then I'm like, I
Speaker 1: don't know. At some point in high school I was
Speaker 1: able to like watch it, and I was kind of like,
Speaker 1: I was like, what is I was like just kind
Speaker 1: of confused because it was because I wanted to watch
Speaker 1: like a you know, just a regular sci fi like
Speaker 1: Star I thought like I was going to get into
Speaker 1: like some Star Wars kind of thing, and this is
Speaker 1: this movie is very much not that um but it
Speaker 1: I don't know, there's something there was something about it
Speaker 1: that always stuck with me about how like it felt
Speaker 1: like the movie was kind of like making fun of
Speaker 1: what the movie itself was to a degree, but also
Speaker 1: but was still being that kind of movie. And so
Speaker 1: I don't know, I just it's I wanted to rewatch
Speaker 1: it because I was like, I wonder how that holds up,
Speaker 1: Like I wonder if it was saying more than I
Speaker 1: caught at the time, or you know, was it like
Speaker 1: being more subversive than you know, people gave it credit for.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know if it was, but
Speaker 1: but I wanted I wanted to examine it for me,
Speaker 1: still inconclusive of and like you brought up Star Wars,
Speaker 1: like this movie is like if Star Wars was told
Speaker 1: from the perspective of like the Empire. Yeah, just like
Speaker 1: a very uninquisitive Empire story. Trooper just being like, yes,
Speaker 1: seems like they have a great idea exactly, Um, Jamie,
Speaker 1: what's your history with it? Truly nothing like I had
Speaker 1: seen other Paul Verhoeven movies like but by that I
Speaker 1: mean Basic Instinct and Show Girls, which were his two
Speaker 1: movies leading up to this. So I've never seen Robotop
Speaker 1: I guess I don't really know this side of Paul Verhoeven. Sure,
Speaker 1: And I didn't know it was a book until when
Speaker 1: I mentioned we were covering this. They're like, you have
Speaker 1: to read the book, which is the thing I hate
Speaker 1: to hear the most. But I listened to the audio
Speaker 1: book and I watched the movie, and both of them
Speaker 1: are so fucking fascist and bizarre to me. Um, but
Speaker 1: that's my that's my entire history. It started on Monday,
Speaker 1: what about You, Kim Incredible? I had like volant. I
Speaker 1: was like, I'm going to reread the book because I
Speaker 1: had read the book in a class I took in
Speaker 1: like a SCIE, a sci fi literature class I took
Speaker 1: in college. It was like one of the required readings.
Speaker 1: But I was a really bad student in that class.
Speaker 1: And while I did like sort of read the books,
Speaker 1: I also didn't entirely. I would like read the first
Speaker 1: fifty pages, because we had to read a book every
Speaker 1: week in that class, and I was like, I don't
Speaker 1: know who has at the time, so I would like
Speaker 1: read the first fifty pages and then usually like skim
Speaker 1: the rest. And I think that's what I must have
Speaker 1: done for this book, because I truly remembered nothing about it.
Speaker 1: And then I also I thought I had seen this movie,
Speaker 1: but as I was watching it, nothing about it was familiar.
Speaker 1: So I think I just had one of those like
Speaker 1: false memories of having seen it. So I also have
Speaker 1: a very limited history with it. Um, I knew the
Speaker 1: part of the history behind it. Of like, when it
Speaker 1: first came out, critics were like, this movie sucks. It's
Speaker 1: just a mess of like gratuitous graphic violence and uh,
Speaker 1: weird themes and da da da da, and then and
Speaker 1: then like kind of in retrospect, a bunch of critics
Speaker 1: were like, oh, wait a minute, actually, this movie is
Speaker 1: freaking a brilliant, awesome satire and if you don't notice that,
Speaker 1: then your brain is bad there. And just like I like,
Speaker 1: I love that cycle of like people think it sucks,
Speaker 1: then they're like actually, and then they're like Galaxy brand,
Speaker 1: They're like it's genius, and then three years later they're like, no, wait,
Speaker 1: it does suck. It was We've come full circle, right, Um.
Speaker 1: I think that like the way there's the framing, I like, okay,
Speaker 1: the beginning, the beginning, like the propaganda framing, Like I
Speaker 1: feel like that is as close to the like that
Speaker 1: satirical framework, like those are the parts of the movie
Speaker 1: that I like the best, but then all the plot
Speaker 1: that happens between those seem to just be very unquestioning. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's very much just doing the story. Like when I
Speaker 1: when I was starting it again, I was like, I
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, it is wow, look at this, like
Speaker 1: this is really fun. Like the scenes where like the
Speaker 1: guys like giving his gun to like children, and the
Speaker 1: children like and like fighting over the gun, and you're like,
Speaker 1: it's like pushing it to the edge. But then when
Speaker 1: we actually like get into I mean, there are small
Speaker 1: things dropped here and there, but for the most part,
Speaker 1: the movie is just doing the thing that the movie
Speaker 1: is always do, And it was made in an error
Speaker 1: where people were literally making and consuming these movies at
Speaker 1: such a high degree that it's like, how would anyone
Speaker 1: know that you were even if you said it, which
Speaker 1: I think he he explicitly said it, like in interviews
Speaker 1: and stuff, but it was like nobody knows. Nobody, Like
Speaker 1: the the general audience doesn't know or care. They're like
Speaker 1: they've been watching movies like this all the time, and
Speaker 1: Robot I don't. It's funny because like I I don't
Speaker 1: know if he feels the same way about RoboCop, but
Speaker 1: like RoboCop is also like extreme, extremely like pro police,
Speaker 1: pro like very racist, like very like. I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's what it like says. What it says
Speaker 1: is terrible and if and if you're trying to say,
Speaker 1: like no, well this is a commentary, it's tough. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I find those arguments always a little tough. Paul Verhoven
Speaker 1: is his quotes are like weird to the context for
Speaker 1: this movie being made. Is like he the screenwriter. He's
Speaker 1: working with the same screenwriter that he did RoboCop with
Speaker 1: Ed new Meyer. Ed new Meyer loves the book Starship Troopers.
Speaker 1: Paul Verhoeven hates the books Starship Troopers. This makes so
Speaker 1: much sense. He literally says, I stopped after two chapters
Speaker 1: because it was so boring. It is really a bad book.
Speaker 1: I asked ed new Meyer to tell me the story
Speaker 1: because I just couldn't read the thing. It's a very
Speaker 1: right wing book. And he's right, But then, like, why
Speaker 1: would he make this movie? It's so so strange. Um,
Speaker 1: oh gosh, well should we Let's get into the recap
Speaker 1: and then we'll go from there. Yeah, let's do it, Hi, listeners,
Speaker 1: Just a quick note about the recap. The way our
Speaker 1: recording schedules worked out, we had to record the recap
Speaker 1: separately without our guest Jonathan. So if you're wondering, hey,
Speaker 1: why isn't Jonathan saying anything during the recap, that's why. Okay,
Speaker 1: enjoy Okay. So, Um, this movie is set in a
Speaker 1: distant future where the people of Earth are at war
Speaker 1: with an alien species known as bugs or arachnik a.
Speaker 1: Definitely not communists, definitely not. Uh and okay, So in
Speaker 1: this world, the only way to be um, a citizen
Speaker 1: of the Federation, the Federation being this government that rules
Speaker 1: it's Earth, and yeah, it's little like the military state, right, Um.
Speaker 1: And the only way to become a citizen with voting
Speaker 1: rights and all that kind of stuff is to serve
Speaker 1: in the military a k a. The Federal Service. So
Speaker 1: the movie opens on a military propaganda commercial which we've
Speaker 1: already perfectly demonstrated you amazingly replicated, um, And this commercial
Speaker 1: is about how it's awesome to join the Federal Service.
Speaker 1: Then we cut to a battle scene where we see
Speaker 1: the reality of kind of the situation and this war,
Speaker 1: which is soldiers getting brutally killed by these aliens, which, again,
Speaker 1: like those first few minutes of the movie, with this
Speaker 1: like military propaganda commercial which glorifies war, Jack stupposed against
Speaker 1: these scenes of graphic violence that show the reality and
Speaker 1: the horror of war, makes it seem like, yeah, it
Speaker 1: looks like some interesting satire is emerging here, but then
Speaker 1: it just kind of stops and doesn't really go anywhere, right. Um.
Speaker 1: Then we cut to one year earlier where we meet
Speaker 1: some high school students. Johnny Rico is our hero. He's
Speaker 1: played by Casper Van Dying. I'm not really sure to
Speaker 1: what his name is. Fun fact, he was married to
Speaker 1: an actress who was in the vow because she joined
Speaker 1: that terrifying cult. Oh whoa, he's one degree removed from
Speaker 1: a terrifying cult. Wow, Casper, that's and that's all I
Speaker 1: have for context corner Um. His girlfriend is Carmen Ibanez.
Speaker 1: That is Denise Richards. We also meet their classmate, Dizzy Flores.
Speaker 1: She's played by Dina meyer Um, who is obviously interested
Speaker 1: in Johnny romantically. Then we also meet carl A Neil
Speaker 1: Patrick Harris in like full doogie mode in this movie,
Speaker 1: Like he's like what if Doogie was a fascist and
Speaker 1: this this is a question no one asked, but this
Speaker 1: movie answers yes indeed, um. And they are all about
Speaker 1: to graduate and they're all considering joining the federal Service.
Speaker 1: They have a teacher, Mr. Ross Check I also don't
Speaker 1: know how to say his name. He is teaching them
Speaker 1: about how military violence is actually really good and cool
Speaker 1: and necessary. Hell yeah. Then we see a football game
Speaker 1: where Johnny and Dizzy are playing football and then also
Speaker 1: sometimes doing gymnastics. I was like, what is that was
Speaker 1: one of the Paul Verhoven little touches that I was like, yeah, sure,
Speaker 1: why not? Yeah? Um. The reason I bring the football
Speaker 1: game up is that this is where we meet a
Speaker 1: guy from the opposing football team, Xander. He becomes important
Speaker 1: later and he's trying to flirt with Carmen and it's
Speaker 1: a whole thing. He's exhausting. I mean, everyone in this
Speaker 1: movie is exhausting, but him especially Right then, the next day, Johnny, Carmen,
Speaker 1: and Carl all join the Federal Service. Carmen will train
Speaker 1: to be a pilot. Carl will be military intelligence because
Speaker 1: by the way, he has psychic abilities, he can talk,
Speaker 1: which he shows us by being like I know what
Speaker 1: every card in the deck is. Also, I can talk
Speaker 1: to my ferret. You're like, huh, okay, I guess that's
Speaker 1: technically showing, not telling, is sure, Yeah, I guess that's planting.
Speaker 1: That's a Checkov's ferret um or something perfect. And then
Speaker 1: Johnny will be infantry. Johnny begins bootcamp with Sergeant Zim, who,
Speaker 1: of course, is best known as being one of the
Speaker 1: villains from Flubber. Yes, okay, I was. I was like,
Speaker 1: I wonder who's going to bring up her first? Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean the parallels between Um, what is the name
Speaker 1: of this movie Stormship Troopers not storm troop Troopers. I'm gonna, yeah,
Speaker 1: I need to do a disclaimer where I'm gonna accidentally
Speaker 1: call this movie stormship Troopers because of Stormtroopers, even though
Speaker 1: it's called Starship Troopers. I mean, this movie. My first
Speaker 1: note for this is literally like Starship Troopers is if
Speaker 1: there was a biopic made of a stormtrooper who never
Speaker 1: questioned the military and viewed the rebellion as literal cockroaches
Speaker 1: Like there, yeah, fascism. Okay. Anyway, so Sergeant Zim, um
Speaker 1: Dizzy shows up to boot camp. She had requested to
Speaker 1: be transferred to this particular unit, probably because of how
Speaker 1: in love she is with Johnny Rico. Gary A. Bussey's
Speaker 1: son is also there, which is once you know it's
Speaker 1: Gary A. Bussey's son, You're like, WHOA, that's really Gary Son,
Speaker 1: I know h. And he's playing he's playing the violin.
Speaker 1: He's That was another thing where just so much of
Speaker 1: this movie is so ridiculous as it watches over you
Speaker 1: that you're like, yeah, Gary Abussey's son is here. There
Speaker 1: was already a golden girl. I guess we just like
Speaker 1: jumped the shark immediately right. His name is Ace. Boot
Speaker 1: Camp is tough, but Johnny shows promise and eventually he
Speaker 1: has made squad leader. Meanwhile, we see Carmen learning to
Speaker 1: be a pilot. She crosses paths with Stander again. Then
Speaker 1: Carmen sends a message, a video message, breaking up with Johnny,
Speaker 1: and shortly after that, Johnny is relieved of squad leader
Speaker 1: duty after the of a teammate, which was his fault.
Speaker 1: So he quits the military and he's about to go
Speaker 1: back home, but just then war breaks out. When bugs attack,
Speaker 1: they like throw a meteor at earth. I don't know
Speaker 1: if it was supposed to be funny when he's skyping
Speaker 1: his parents and they're like, come home, we love you.
Speaker 1: Oh no, what's going on? And then it goes boop boop.
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, like there's so much of this movie.
Speaker 1: They're like, was that supposed to be campy or is
Speaker 1: that just Paul Verhoeven trying to be serious? Well that's
Speaker 1: the thing. Like a lot of people will be like,
Speaker 1: this movie is brilliant satire and it's so hilarious, and
Speaker 1: then I'm over here being like shrug. I'm like, I
Speaker 1: think that that it definitely wants to be a brilliant satire,
Speaker 1: but you know, kind of like I'm not totally sure.
Speaker 1: I'm not convinced. Um So, because of the war that
Speaker 1: has just broken up, Johnny Rico's like, I'm going to
Speaker 1: join back up, So he and other troops are are deployed,
Speaker 1: but the battle goes horribly wrong. They underestimate the bugs.
Speaker 1: Hundreds of thousands of troopers are killed in action, Johnny
Speaker 1: is badly wounded, uh and Carmen thinks that he's dead
Speaker 1: and she's all sad about it. So then the military
Speaker 1: has to reevaluate their battle plan and the teacher Mr.
Speaker 1: Razcheck shows up and he's like, by the way, I'm
Speaker 1: a lieutenant. Were like okay, um, and then let's see
Speaker 1: Johnny's injury gets fixed via sci fi science. That was
Speaker 1: kind of fun. He's in like a goop a goop
Speaker 1: tank and then they're like, okay, you're good to go. Uh.
Speaker 1: Then they go back into battle and have a few
Speaker 1: successful missions where they kill a lot of bugs. Raz
Speaker 1: Check promotes Johnny. Johnny and Dizzy kiss and have sex
Speaker 1: and things really seem to be looking up. And guess
Speaker 1: who loves that they're having sex? Mr raz Check for
Speaker 1: some reason, He's take an extra ten minutes to have
Speaker 1: sex with each other. I'm like, um, you were my
Speaker 1: history teacher at Growth, right. Um. So then they go
Speaker 1: out on another mission to Planet P and things go
Speaker 1: horribly wrong and they start to figure out that there
Speaker 1: must be like a brain bug that is controlling the
Speaker 1: other bugs and making intelligent choices and setting traps and
Speaker 1: things like that. Oh also, we should say, I mean
Speaker 1: it goes without saying that because this is a sci
Speaker 1: fi movie made by a man, that the and the
Speaker 1: monsters are vaginal, especially this brain bug which we are
Speaker 1: about to see. I kind of was like back I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know what evil brain pussy? Sure, you know iconic. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So they learned about the brain Bug and a bunch
Speaker 1: of soldiers are killed, including roz Check and Dizzy. So
Speaker 1: then Carmen and Xander fly into rescue them, and Carmen
Speaker 1: is like, oh my god, Johnny, I thought you were dead,
Speaker 1: and he's like, uh no, surprised, surprise, And then Neil
Speaker 1: Patrick Harris comes back dressed as a full Nazi. Was
Speaker 1: not prepared, Neil Patrick Harris to become a full Nazi,
Speaker 1: nor was I. And he's like, by the way, you
Speaker 1: have to go back to Planet P and kill the
Speaker 1: brain Bug Johnny Rico, who is now a lieutenant I
Speaker 1: think because he had to kill his his his teacher um.
Speaker 1: And Johnny's like cool, sounds good to me. So then
Speaker 1: they go back in for one last battle. Meanwhile, Carmen
Speaker 1: and Xander's starship has been like shot out of space
Speaker 1: and then they crash land onto Planet P right into
Speaker 1: the nest of the brain bug convenience. And the brain
Speaker 1: Bug definitely is the most vagina ish vagina monster if
Speaker 1: any movie I've ever seen that Yeah, yeah, and it
Speaker 1: sucks out Xander's brain as vaginas do as vaginas do,
Speaker 1: and it's about to do the same for Carmen, but
Speaker 1: then Johnny and a couple other troopers show up and
Speaker 1: save her, and then they capture the brain bug, and
Speaker 1: then Neil Patrick Harris uses his psychic abilities to learn
Speaker 1: that the bug is afraid, and then everyone cheers because
Speaker 1: the bug is afraid. They're like, oh wow, we are
Speaker 1: really gonna commit a lot of atrocities soon, like, and
Speaker 1: that's basically the end of the movie, so shockingly, Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and then we will come
Speaker 1: right back and we're back. Can I give a quick
Speaker 1: book recap, please, because I just need to justify the
Speaker 1: time spent listening to the audiobook on one point five Okay,
Speaker 1: so the book, the book, and the movie are both fashy,
Speaker 1: but in kind of different ways. So I guess make
Speaker 1: of that what you will. In the book, Um, there's
Speaker 1: a whole like whitewashing discussion to be had about this
Speaker 1: movie because in the book most of the main characters
Speaker 1: are Filipino. Um, and I believe they live in Canada,
Speaker 1: not Buenos Aires, even though Buenos Aires still does get
Speaker 1: bugged in the book. I don't know but the but yeah,
Speaker 1: it's Um, it's Juan Rico and his father Emilio Rico.
Speaker 1: And so that's the first huge difference. UM and as
Speaker 1: well as like Carmen and Carl, they're all in point
Speaker 1: to be Filipino characters that live in the same community
Speaker 1: in Canada. There are class differences in the book, unlike
Speaker 1: in the movie where Um they still call him. They
Speaker 1: like americanized his name to Johnny midway through the book.
Speaker 1: Once he's in the military, he's called Johnny. At home
Speaker 1: he was called one UM. But once he gets to
Speaker 1: boot camp, like he he grew up in a really
Speaker 1: rich family. Uh, and Carl and Carmen grew up in
Speaker 1: a lower class family, which which is implied why that's
Speaker 1: why they're joining the military. So there's like more push
Speaker 1: and pull there. There's like actual class stuff going on. Uh.
Speaker 1: They did that a little bit, like you knew that
Speaker 1: he was rich. And there was that scene in the
Speaker 1: bat like the shower where they're all taking a shower
Speaker 1: together U where they're like talking about why they why
Speaker 1: they joined, and there is like a lot of people
Speaker 1: are like joined because they didn't have money or they
Speaker 1: like were farmers or whatever. So like it was there
Speaker 1: a little bit with him, but definitely not Carmen. They
Speaker 1: didn't they didn't make it seem like Carmen didn't have
Speaker 1: money in the movie. Yeah, and it seems like carl
Speaker 1: was doing just fine because he's like in his like
Speaker 1: science deck ster's lab basement or whatever. He's got a
Speaker 1: pet ferret, you know, he's got like all the rich
Speaker 1: people do. I'm sure, but yes, so there's that. But then,
Speaker 1: I mean, the book does in the middle, uh take
Speaker 1: a pretty hard right turn where it just sort of
Speaker 1: starts through the teacher character just starts kind of spouting
Speaker 1: right wing philosophy. Like there's just whole chapters that are
Speaker 1: about how the like there's no such thing as life,
Speaker 1: liberty and the pursuit of happiness. There is only loyalty
Speaker 1: to the state. The most freedom you can get is
Speaker 1: a willingness to die for the state. And it just
Speaker 1: gets really hardcore. What what I The only thing I
Speaker 1: think it really does better is the class stuff, and
Speaker 1: like it's more of a coming of age story. Even
Speaker 1: though it's like Juan Rico is coming of age into
Speaker 1: a fascist super soldier, he at least undergoes some sort
Speaker 1: of like change where I feel like in the movie
Speaker 1: he's kind of just like there, he's like hot and
Speaker 1: he's there, he likes he likes Carmen, he likes car
Speaker 1: and oh yeah, Krmen is barely in in the book.
Speaker 1: There's no love story in the book or anything like that.
Speaker 1: That was like the whole thing for this movie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess that that's we're saying, is there's all of
Speaker 1: all of the sexes of that appears in the movie
Speaker 1: is very of the movie. It's that in the book
Speaker 1: at all. I would say that that's one of the
Speaker 1: issues that the book actually like doesn't really super fumble,
Speaker 1: but it's it's implying that it's this fashion that it's
Speaker 1: this like militaristic utopia. That's why I think what the
Speaker 1: author wants you to think, like because he was in
Speaker 1: the military himself. He is actively pushing children reading this
Speaker 1: book to go into the military, so he's like, the
Speaker 1: military isn't sexist, the military isn't racist. We're all fighting
Speaker 1: against the bugs, which is just communism. So it's very
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties like it was. It is it written as
Speaker 1: like a dystopian world? Like is it written like a
Speaker 1: nine four where it's like warning against this type of thing,
Speaker 1: or do you does it? It feels like it's very
Speaker 1: pro this it's full, it's it's full utopia to the
Speaker 1: point where I was like reading of like it's so
Speaker 1: fucking weird because you think that I just didn't see
Speaker 1: that coming. Where like the more into fascism he gets,
Speaker 1: the happier he becomes, and he becomes fully self actualized.
Speaker 1: By the end in the book, his dad doesn't die.
Speaker 1: His dad gives up his richie rich business and joins
Speaker 1: the military with his son. And at the end they're like,
Speaker 1: we're so happy, Like who wrote this book this? He's like,
Speaker 1: I never like literally he's a former Nazi wrote this book. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: a US veteran who really got into it. It's really
Speaker 1: fucking weird, Like I it's and and I guess even
Speaker 1: in its time, people like this is right wing like
Speaker 1: man of Propaganda. Yeah, because it it is. But it
Speaker 1: was also one of the most like successful, influential like
Speaker 1: sci fi books of its time. There were a lot
Speaker 1: of like posts and stuff I found about like, oh,
Speaker 1: when I first read this, it maybe want to join
Speaker 1: the military because that's literally like what it is supposed
Speaker 1: to You're it's supposed to make you want to just
Speaker 1: die for the state and view your enemy as just
Speaker 1: a lifeless evil husk Uh. So it's a fucked up book. Uh.
Speaker 1: And Carmen and and Dizzy. The name Dizzy has brought
Speaker 1: up literally once in the first chapter. She doesn't go
Speaker 1: to school with them. She's not a character that exists
Speaker 1: in this world. She's just one of his like squad
Speaker 1: friends who's killed at the beginning. And so there's no
Speaker 1: love triangle, none of that ship. It's just truly all
Speaker 1: right wing ideology, um and a child being radicalized. So
Speaker 1: that's the book I read. The author, Robert A. Hind Line,
Speaker 1: wrote this book in response to right Um wrote this
Speaker 1: book in response to him being mad that the US
Speaker 1: was suspending nuclear testing. He's like, no, we should be
Speaker 1: blowing and shut up and you know, having nuclear bombs
Speaker 1: dropping all over the place all the time. He loves war,
Speaker 1: the more casualties better. Looking him up on Wikipedia, he's
Speaker 1: six generation German American. Look, I'm not saying that all
Speaker 1: Germans are Nazis, but this guy wrote a fascism. He
Speaker 1: wrote a famous fashio. I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's so yeah, it's it's fun. Like the book is
Speaker 1: fucking scary because it's like it does start to pull
Speaker 1: you in of like, well, it's a coming of age story,
Speaker 1: and then in like a third of the way through,
Speaker 1: it's like, fuck you is scarier sh it you'll ever read.
Speaker 1: There is something interesting about because he's I think this
Speaker 1: guy's like this is very anti communist. But there's a
Speaker 1: similar way in the movie does this, and I'm guessing
Speaker 1: the book does something similar where they at some point
Speaker 1: where they're talking about the bugs, they're like kind of
Speaker 1: I don't like idealizing them. They're like, oh, there's like
Speaker 1: they're actually I don't know. They they don't have fear,
Speaker 1: they follow orders, they do this, they do that, and
Speaker 1: like there is this way in which like fascist, very
Speaker 1: right wing even though they're like against left wing, they like,
Speaker 1: you know, they they actually like dream about like wow,
Speaker 1: could you imagine having that much power where you know,
Speaker 1: people would just conform to the state and do this
Speaker 1: and do that, like for the good And you're just like,
Speaker 1: so you're the same thing. You're the thing that you
Speaker 1: think that you think you're fighting against, Like that's what
Speaker 1: you want to be, Like what it's it's such a
Speaker 1: mindful It's like that does up and in the book
Speaker 1: as well, and it's like it's such a mind funk
Speaker 1: because when you're listening to it, you're like, this sounds
Speaker 1: like brainwashing. This sounds really bad. But the book is like,
Speaker 1: and isn't this amazing that we've shaped this young man
Speaker 1: to think this way? But it is. Yeah, it's like, uh,
Speaker 1: as he spends more time in boot camp, and the
Speaker 1: boot camp thing is very different in the book. I
Speaker 1: won't even get into it because it's like more fucked
Speaker 1: up and worse. But uh, they're just like slowly it's
Speaker 1: worse there. It's yeah, I don't don't read the book,
Speaker 1: but the they they're just slowly sort of like encouraging
Speaker 1: him too and everyone to you know, not view the bugs.
Speaker 1: Individuals view them as this mass organized and it just
Speaker 1: encouraged to like the soldiers, to view them as beings
Speaker 1: that do not have emotions, and so you will feel
Speaker 1: less bad about murdering them, like and in the I
Speaker 1: feel like the movie and the book you find out
Speaker 1: really nothing about like the bugs, what their goal is, like,
Speaker 1: what they're defending against, just so you don't feel bad
Speaker 1: about watching Johnny Rico kill them even the like even
Speaker 1: though they have all this intelligence and like you know,
Speaker 1: weapons and this kind of things like that, like whenever,
Speaker 1: like every planet that they're on looks like completely lifeless.
Speaker 1: They're like even though even when they go underground, it's
Speaker 1: like they're just like living in tunnels, like they're just
Speaker 1: kind of doing this thing of like yeah, they just
Speaker 1: all they do is reproduce and spread and they and
Speaker 1: they're trying to kill us and that's it, Like that's
Speaker 1: all they are, just like this living organism. That's all
Speaker 1: it's trying to do is like spread and destroy. But again,
Speaker 1: there's a reflection to us that could happen here, you know,
Speaker 1: in that. But the movie as subversive as people want
Speaker 1: this movie to be, and like, yes, there there are
Speaker 1: certain things where they're clearly like poking fun. The movie
Speaker 1: never actually goes there, Like it never actually goes there
Speaker 1: because you could do that, but nobody had no None
Speaker 1: of these characters have any real realization that's happening. At
Speaker 1: the end, they're all you victorious, just cheering literally look
Speaker 1: at how much of a hero we all are, And
Speaker 1: it's encouraging the audience to fascist Doogie is so scary. Um. Oh,
Speaker 1: also that is a that's a that's a big change
Speaker 1: from the book. Carl is uh not psychic and is
Speaker 1: not uh not, No, there's no there's no psychic through line. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: Carl dies about two seconds into the book, like they
Speaker 1: all enlist at the same time. Johnny Johnny enlist because
Speaker 1: he wants to prove that he's more than just a
Speaker 1: rich kid, which is like exhausting, but he doesn't enlist
Speaker 1: because of Carmen, and then uh, Carl dies almost right
Speaker 1: away and Carmen disappears until the very end of the book. Wow.
Speaker 1: Going back to the bug thing really quick, there's like
Speaker 1: a very brief suggestion in the movie that humans have
Speaker 1: been basically just call alonizing all of the like outer
Speaker 1: reaches of this entire galaxy, and then they came upon
Speaker 1: this like species of aliens and they didn't like to
Speaker 1: be colonized, and then they fought back. And now that
Speaker 1: that's sort of like what instigated this entire war where
Speaker 1: the humans are like genociding these aliens, but it's just
Speaker 1: because of the humans being colonizers, and like there's just
Speaker 1: like a sliver of that in the movie. It's like
Speaker 1: you could do something with that, but then they're like, no,
Speaker 1: they're not gonna do anything. It's truly a sliver. There's
Speaker 1: one person who there's like a report, like a nameless
Speaker 1: reporter who's like some would say that the humans are
Speaker 1: actually the ones that provoke the attack, and they're like
Speaker 1: shut up. And then and then you're like you're like
Speaker 1: like that's funny, but when you don't actually do any
Speaker 1: of that, it's like, um, I don't know if you've
Speaker 1: guys noticed this, but like there are times where, like
Speaker 1: especially now, where like shows like pretend to be woke
Speaker 1: by like adding a line in Like I remember reading
Speaker 1: this pilot where it was like it was a space
Speaker 1: kind of start, not Star Trek, but like something like that. Um,
Speaker 1: and the captain of the of the ship becomes like
Speaker 1: this dude who's like not as smart and like they're
Speaker 1: they're like jokes made about how he's not as smart
Speaker 1: as like the woman he passes up or like the
Speaker 1: other people, but it's like he still becomes the captain
Speaker 1: And I was like, Okay, so you guys pretend you're
Speaker 1: being woke by by like being like yeah with like
Speaker 1: man the like how did you become captain usually women
Speaker 1: are captains, and I'm like, okay, but this show is
Speaker 1: going to be in our universe with a male, white
Speaker 1: male lead, So what do we So you're not actually
Speaker 1: doing the thing that you're you're commenting on, like you
Speaker 1: just assuming that by stating that, it's like we know
Speaker 1: we're doing it again and do it anyway. It reminds
Speaker 1: me of the Last Avengers movie when there's that moment
Speaker 1: where like all the women superheroes that they've only just
Speaker 1: introduced him to the universe within the past like two years.
Speaker 1: We're like, wow, look at them, they're all walking together
Speaker 1: and just like feminism, right, women's like danting next to
Speaker 1: each other. Yeah, right, yeah, this this movie does because
Speaker 1: it's like I feel like, at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: if if the movie is at no point that I
Speaker 1: feel like the movie was having you question Johnny ricas
Speaker 1: like motivations, question his journey or like root against him
Speaker 1: in any way, So it's like, well, then is it
Speaker 1: really saying anything if the whole journey is Johnny getting
Speaker 1: like really lost in the fascism sauce, and we're just
Speaker 1: supposed to be like really rooting for him the whole time,
Speaker 1: Like you're never supposed to be rooting against him or
Speaker 1: the Earthlings. So if you had died, right, I can't.
Speaker 1: I wish he had died. I wish he had died,
Speaker 1: or there was like just some sort of like yeah,
Speaker 1: the movie to me feels completely void of like commentary
Speaker 1: and like, yes, there are these ends of satire with
Speaker 1: like the propaganda commercials that are being sprinkled throughout, but
Speaker 1: it feels like what you're saying, Jonathan, it feels like
Speaker 1: like the closest they get to be like, isn't this
Speaker 1: fucked up? But then just doing the fucked up thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I read the director Paul Verhoeven said that his intent
Speaker 1: with this movie because again everyone wants to you know,
Speaker 1: lots of people are like, but it's brilliant satire. So
Speaker 1: Paul ever Hooven was like, well, my intent here was
Speaker 1: to seduce the audience into rooting for these fascist characters
Speaker 1: using the same military propaganda that like the Third Reich
Speaker 1: was using for propaganda. And then also his intent was
Speaker 1: to chaw lenge the audience too, kind of consider, Okay,
Speaker 1: why are we rooting for fascism? That's an interesting idea.
Speaker 1: I just don't think he pulls it off, it's not
Speaker 1: executed well. And I didn't see that intent until he
Speaker 1: explained it to me personally. So it's like, then you're
Speaker 1: not if you're that's not effective satire. Think, Yeah, the
Speaker 1: reason that it's not affective to me in the slightest
Speaker 1: is that one we don't. First of all, the reason
Speaker 1: that the book uses bugs as the enemy is because
Speaker 1: as human beings, we do have like in an a
Speaker 1: kind of we're like we look at insects as like
Speaker 1: they're gross, and we don't feel like people, even people
Speaker 1: who love animals, you know, will be quicker to kill
Speaker 1: a roach or an aunt, you know, or be than
Speaker 1: they would and maybe not bees anymore, just because now
Speaker 1: we know their environmental impact. But but like, but you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like we're quicker to kill insects
Speaker 1: than we are any other really any other kind of
Speaker 1: animal species. So so we're watching this movie and we
Speaker 1: don't feel anything for the bugs, Like nobody, you're you're
Speaker 1: not you're not thinking at all, like, oh, that bug
Speaker 1: had a family, or what if that bug was just
Speaker 1: like what if that bug is a civilian that's just
Speaker 1: like trying to live its life, Like it's it's so
Speaker 1: hard to like get there, and there are sci fi
Speaker 1: books that actually kind of make you think that. I mean,
Speaker 1: Enders Game is supposed to be that kind of book too.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys have ever read Enders Game.
Speaker 1: Not from high school. I saw the movie though, but
Speaker 1: that was a similar thing where they're like training these
Speaker 1: like child soldiers to like kill things and like the
Speaker 1: bugs are the enemy, and then like at the end,
Speaker 1: he realizes, like he that this wasn't a trading mission,
Speaker 1: that it was the actual thing, and he's like wiped
Speaker 1: out in the whole planet of of bugs and he's
Speaker 1: like and the kid kind of feels like, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: what did I just do? But it's also one of
Speaker 1: those things where it's even that like it's it doesn't
Speaker 1: go far enough, because people who look at the Nazis
Speaker 1: who are bad, like as bad guys, like people who
Speaker 1: sympathize with like fascism will also you know, use the
Speaker 1: Nazis as like some symbol of like, yeah, those guys
Speaker 1: like the Nazis are bad, you know, but our brand
Speaker 1: of fascism is good, you know, which is what this
Speaker 1: movie is. You know. It's like, yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I guess I don't know how anyone who wasn't who
Speaker 1: didn't already know the things that he's like trying to
Speaker 1: point out, is going to come to that realization themselves. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like Paul Verhoeven, it just seems ill equipped to
Speaker 1: do what he says he's trying to do. And he's
Speaker 1: also just chosen like if he wants to make an
Speaker 1: anti fascist statement like this is not the book to
Speaker 1: adapt into a really expensive movie, like it's a fascist book,
Speaker 1: so using a using a screenwriter who likes the fascist book,
Speaker 1: right if you yeah, it's it's it's pretty wild. The
Speaker 1: other thing that's like, Yeah, the other thing that's annoying
Speaker 1: is that I actually do think there was a chance
Speaker 1: in here to do something like like if you do
Speaker 1: have like these characters just like be like smiling over
Speaker 1: just like the most horrendous stuff. But like at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, Rico gets to stay alive, he
Speaker 1: gets the save the girl. Like he's failed upwards so
Speaker 1: many times that he's now a lieutenant just through his
Speaker 1: history teacher. He's like experiencing a history teacher nepotism. Yeah,
Speaker 1: his his history teacher who told him to come in
Speaker 1: is like is the other hero, all the things that
Speaker 1: like the all the people who are against him, like
Speaker 1: his parents who are against them joining the military. They
Speaker 1: they get wiped out. And then motivation for him to
Speaker 1: stay there. You know, the girl that he is friends
Speaker 1: with but he doesn't really like. She winds up dying
Speaker 1: for her only purpose was for her to be with him.
Speaker 1: Dying words are at least I got to be with you.
Speaker 1: And then and then he gets and then the and
Speaker 1: then the guy who stole his girl he dies too,
Speaker 1: So like everything's a okay for this dude. This dude
Speaker 1: is living the life. So how are we supposed to
Speaker 1: ever think that this movie is saying anything bad about this?
Speaker 1: It's I feel like it's especially like the Johnny Rico,
Speaker 1: Like he's just his last name is Rico. It's ridiculous,
Speaker 1: Like and then and then but like in the movie
Speaker 1: that I found like Carl to be more frustrating than
Speaker 1: anyone else. He literally becomes like a Nazi psychic doctor
Speaker 1: and at the end he gets like that. I was like,
Speaker 1: how did Carl not die or experience any sort of
Speaker 1: like like you just see like these high school kids
Speaker 1: getting radicalized. And then the movie ends like and so
Speaker 1: like there's You're never supposed to be like was that good?
Speaker 1: Like were we supposed to feel good about that? As
Speaker 1: it's just assumed that you want, like you hate the bugs.
Speaker 1: We know nothing about them. They all look like vagina
Speaker 1: monsters like every sci fi movie from this era, like
Speaker 1: and that's and that's it. I don't know. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: as much as I appreciate the in between segments of
Speaker 1: like would you like to know more? But it's like,
Speaker 1: literally I would Paul Verhoeven I put that in the story. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's one point that I kind of the one Paul
Speaker 1: Verhoeven quote that I was like, that's kind of interesting
Speaker 1: because I don't know, he's like he is a guy
Speaker 1: who just loves when anyone is naked right like, and
Speaker 1: doesn't know how to have sex. I mean that's just
Speaker 1: basic ast thing that off the basic inst thing. I'm like,
Speaker 1: what do you think sex is? Like? What is such
Speaker 1: a weird man? The one quote that because there is
Speaker 1: like that cod shower scene that is pretty important to
Speaker 1: like understanding the world, and I feel like it's like
Speaker 1: one of the only scenes that I felt like got
Speaker 1: close to saying something and then ultimately didn't because it
Speaker 1: was just basically explaining, like like what a barrier not
Speaker 1: serving in the military would be to like achieving any
Speaker 1: dream you'd have, whether you want to be a parent
Speaker 1: or a politician or a writer, or like, you have
Speaker 1: to serve in order to just like live somewhat autonomously.
Speaker 1: So it's a helpful scene to include they're all naked,
Speaker 1: which is very Paul Verhoven Like, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: guess I wasn't like particularly bothered because everyone was more
Speaker 1: or less framed in a similar way, But I liked
Speaker 1: so Pulver I guess that that was the scene that
Speaker 1: he had the most difficulty getting through, not the five
Speaker 1: trillion gory brutal deaths um not people being ripped limb
Speaker 1: from limb, not someone's brain getting literally sucked out of
Speaker 1: their head. He's like, so this is okay. I'll give
Speaker 1: you the quote, and then I'll give you the context
Speaker 1: because it's a fun twist. So he says this quote
Speaker 1: about that kind of editing struggle. He said, uh, because
Speaker 1: he's Dutch. He says, Americans get more upset about nudity
Speaker 1: than ultra violence. I am constantly amazed about that. I mean,
Speaker 1: I haven't seen any sex scenes in American film that
Speaker 1: are anything other than completely boring. A bare breast is
Speaker 1: more difficult to get through the sensors than a body
Speaker 1: riddled with bullets. I think that's a very valid point, right,
Speaker 1: Like that's and and and I feel like the nudity
Speaker 1: of this movie, at least compared to other movies of
Speaker 1: its time, I didn't think it was like particularly, I mean,
Speaker 1: it didn't need to be there, but it felt like
Speaker 1: gender was. It was just like, I guess we're all
Speaker 1: naked in this scene. I wasn't super bothered by it,
Speaker 1: but okay, but the twist in this scene, um is
Speaker 1: that So apparently they he was having trouble even getting
Speaker 1: permission to shoot the scene, and then the cast. It
Speaker 1: says on scholarly journal Wikipedia, the cast agreed to do
Speaker 1: the co ed shower scene only if Verhoeven agreed to
Speaker 1: direct the scene naked, which he did so respect which
Speaker 1: which is like, I can't imagine a world in which
Speaker 1: having Paul Verhoeven naked would make me more comfortable. But
Speaker 1: that was that was what the cast said. And so
Speaker 1: that was how he got the topless scene through was
Speaker 1: by being also topless. I mean, there is something about
Speaker 1: that like you you're in this with us, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of thing, like we're all going to share in
Speaker 1: this like experience that could feel embarrassing. Yeah, so you know, Paul,
Speaker 1: he was, he was, you know, at least willing to participate.
Speaker 1: It's like the more sexual version of when Greta Growing
Speaker 1: wore the prom dress during the Ladybird Prom scene. Right.
Speaker 1: I don't know, this scene felt to me like gratuitous nudity,
Speaker 1: especially because most of the new ditty you see is
Speaker 1: women's breasts, and it just felt to me like an
Speaker 1: excuse to show some titties. And I just wasn't sure
Speaker 1: why it was happening. But I don't know, maybe that's
Speaker 1: just me being a puritan. I disagree on this specific scene.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel like that all the bodies
Speaker 1: in this scene, especially when you compare it to other
Speaker 1: like I always think of like the shower scene that
Speaker 1: opens carry exactly. I was thinking the same thing like
Speaker 1: that is that's so it's so predatory too, because it's
Speaker 1: like these are high school girls and there's no reason
Speaker 1: for us to see this, like it doesn't add anything
Speaker 1: to the movie, whereas this and it's like it's like
Speaker 1: it's voyeuristic, right, Whereas this this, it's like they're all
Speaker 1: taking a shower together and none of them are sexualizing it.
Speaker 1: Like there's a way in which I can see I
Speaker 1: can see or Hoban's like kind of thinking of like
Speaker 1: we gotta just you guys, gotta calm down with like
Speaker 1: how like both repressed and over sexualized you are in
Speaker 1: your society and one of the wait one of the
Speaker 1: ways to do that instead of like seeing nudity in
Speaker 1: like some sexual context, it's like we're all just like
Speaker 1: everyone's showers. They're all showering together, no one's making comments
Speaker 1: on other people's body parts, and they're having actually like
Speaker 1: a real conversation right there, talking about their hopes and
Speaker 1: dreams topless. And I'm like, well, I guess that's as
Speaker 1: close to enjoying this group of people as I'm going
Speaker 1: to get. I mean, yeah, it's like I think that
Speaker 1: it's a little bit different when it comes to that
Speaker 1: like weird sex scene with uh with Johnny and Dizzy,
Speaker 1: Like I think that I would argue as a little
Speaker 1: more or do it is, But the shower scene I
Speaker 1: was pretty unbothered by, I don't know, but also I
Speaker 1: was reading that test the way that like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: just I'm just like, wow, America is so fucking broken, right,
Speaker 1: But like test audiences for this movie um did not
Speaker 1: comments on the brutal violence at all. They were just
Speaker 1: like I can't believe that people were topless. And then
Speaker 1: they also felt like the original notes were that they
Speaker 1: felt it was immoral for Carmen to choose a career
Speaker 1: ahead of being loyal to Rika, and they wanted like
Speaker 1: audiences wanted that change, not even Paul Verhoeven, and that
Speaker 1: Carmen shouldn't immoral, and that Carmen should have died instead
Speaker 1: of Dizzy because she made the sin of choosing a
Speaker 1: career over some fucking guy. Uh And and I guess
Speaker 1: that was like overwhelmingly they're like I hated that I
Speaker 1: saw nudity, and you should have killed Denise Richards for
Speaker 1: wanting a job. And you're like, oh my god, no,
Speaker 1: you should have killed everyone for being a fascist. Like
Speaker 1: we're missing the thing here. So I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: all all the sexism in this movie has been added,
Speaker 1: but it seems like audiences wanted more. There was a
Speaker 1: high demand for the female characters to be treated. Uh, worse.
Speaker 1: That is absolutely wild. Well, let's take a quick break
Speaker 1: and then we'll come back for more discussion, and we're back.
Speaker 1: Should we talk about these gals. Let's talk about the gals.
Speaker 1: Should we start with Carmen? Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 1: Everyone in this movie is a bad actor, right, like
Speaker 1: pretty much or like all the not Neil Patrick Harr.
Speaker 1: I mean I feel like, didn't okay, Denise Richards and
Speaker 1: Casper Van question Mark are bad actors. But watching Denise
Speaker 1: Richards pretend to steer a spaceship was like I was
Speaker 1: losing it. It's so funny she's because she her eyes
Speaker 1: are just kind of glazed and the eyeline doesn't quite
Speaker 1: make sense, and then she just like pulls, like gently
Speaker 1: pulls a little. I was like, I've seen Star Wars.
Speaker 1: I think it's harder to drive this thing that you're
Speaker 1: making it look I attend to. I think she was
Speaker 1: maybe miscast for this role. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: every time I love Denise Richards, but this movie gets
Speaker 1: brought up, Everyone's like, oh, yeah, that's that movie that
Speaker 1: like Denise Richards is in for some reason, and then
Speaker 1: like people are like, I feel like unnecessarily cruel to her.
Speaker 1: So then so then I'm like, I guess I kind
Speaker 1: of feel bad for like dumping on her her performance
Speaker 1: in this I'm just as happy to dump on almost
Speaker 1: anyone in this movie. Gary Busey's sons, the lead of
Speaker 1: this movie is like, I'm not getting anything from him.
Speaker 1: He's just a blank slate. But but it is this
Speaker 1: weird thing where it felt intentional for them to be
Speaker 1: like these like very young, conventionally attractive, very very wide,
Speaker 1: very arian, like like, oh you know here, these are
Speaker 1: these are the the men and woman we put on
Speaker 1: our our poster board, you know, for for Nazi Germany. UM.
Speaker 1: And I was like, I was kind of like, I
Speaker 1: kind of like, didn't I don't know the acting. I
Speaker 1: didn't like it didn't necessarily pull me out because of
Speaker 1: what I was watching, you know what I mean. Like
Speaker 1: they're like, it wasn't like there was something. I guess
Speaker 1: that's two fold that I didn't feel like the script
Speaker 1: was giving anything deeper. But I also realized that better
Speaker 1: actors probably could have done something that the script wasn't doing,
Speaker 1: and that even the director maybe didn't wasn't even trying
Speaker 1: to do um and make these characters feel more you know,
Speaker 1: three dimensional, but they were. It was very two men
Speaker 1: and most of these, I mean most of the main
Speaker 1: quote unquote teen actually thirty year old cast, Like most
Speaker 1: of them are nineties TV stars, So they were just
Speaker 1: like people who were on TV at the time, because
Speaker 1: like Neil Patrick Harris was Doogie Houser, Dina Meyer was
Speaker 1: on like Beverly Hills nine O two one, Oh Didn't
Speaker 1: Richards was one. Like these were all just kind of
Speaker 1: like teen soap stars that were put in this movie
Speaker 1: about militaristic fascism. So I don't really understand the expectation
Speaker 1: for any of them to thrive in this environment. That said,
Speaker 1: Deniece Richard driving a spaceship. As far as her character
Speaker 1: goes in general, I was not impressed with the way
Speaker 1: that she was written, believe it or not, um because basically,
Speaker 1: like so, it's the type of character who's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: she's really smart, she's really good at what she does,
Speaker 1: she's able to work her way up through the ranks,
Speaker 1: but she like just has absolutely no dimension or like
Speaker 1: nu once to her character, like she has no flaws,
Speaker 1: she never makes any mistake. Her main journey is like
Speaker 1: picking between two assholes. Like that's her journey. Well, I
Speaker 1: guess our journey was to become a pilot, like and
Speaker 1: then like by the end is a captain right like
Speaker 1: her her her journey is is the career path and
Speaker 1: then like this romance thing. It is funny. I will say, uh,
Speaker 1: none of the female characters are written very well at all.
Speaker 1: But I also don't think any of the male characters
Speaker 1: are written well in this movie out, so there's like
Speaker 1: a there's at least a parody in the in the
Speaker 1: sense in the sense that they're all two dimensional characters
Speaker 1: that said, like, it's still Rico, still the lead. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I I think this is I don't know, like I
Speaker 1: like that she's it feels like kind of like an
Speaker 1: empty gesture of like she's an amazing pilot, which is like, okay,
Speaker 1: that's great, but she kind of achieves her goal immediately,
Speaker 1: like the first time she gets in the pilot seat
Speaker 1: there like you're amazing at this, and that she just
Speaker 1: continues to succeed at it um and her main thing
Speaker 1: is like Zander versus Johnny, And it seems like I
Speaker 1: like that she's the one to break up with Johnny,
Speaker 1: Like it seems like she's being pretty realistic about everything.
Speaker 1: She's like because she's bare into him at the beginning,
Speaker 1: Like he has to keep reminding her that I love you,
Speaker 1: do you love me at all? And she's like, I guess,
Speaker 1: she's like, we're in high we're in high school, man,
Speaker 1: Like yeah, like chill, like we're high school boyfriend girfriend.
Speaker 1: We're literally not going to know each other when we graduate.
Speaker 1: She's just kind of being I appreciate that she's being
Speaker 1: a realist about her high school relationship. And I was,
Speaker 1: and I don't know, I don't like dislike harmen. I
Speaker 1: just like we know nothing about any of these kids, right,
Speaker 1: And also it is very jarring when all of their
Speaker 1: families die and they don't really react. I got react barely.
Speaker 1: I mean there's yeah where she's like, you know, every
Speaker 1: time I think about it, I'm crying, but like she's
Speaker 1: not crying in that moment, and it doesn't seem like
Speaker 1: she's actually that sad. Uh Anyways, like oh my god, Yeah,
Speaker 1: their entire families die, which I feel like really gets
Speaker 1: glazed over, which it's again it's just like, well, then
Speaker 1: don't have them live there if you're not going to
Speaker 1: have them react to their entire families dying. I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's very straight, but yeah, it's like Kerman the most,
Speaker 1: like we don't really know. She kind of achieves her
Speaker 1: goal right away, and then it's just kind of like
Speaker 1: she's I like that she's like present and there's definitely
Speaker 1: she has her own storyline, but I don't know. It
Speaker 1: was not very moved by the Zander versus Johnny Rico
Speaker 1: uh decision. And she also didn't seem she seemed pretty
Speaker 1: set on like what she wanted, so it wasn't even
Speaker 1: really a struggle for her really at a point, right,
Speaker 1: she was just like she was like, yeah, we're like
Speaker 1: I'm going to be in a career and you're in
Speaker 1: the mobile infantry, like we're not going to see each other,
Speaker 1: so blah blah. And then he gets upset because he
Speaker 1: sees that other guy. And it wasn't even like she
Speaker 1: was like I'm leaving you for him. It was just
Speaker 1: like we're never going to be together. And also there's
Speaker 1: somebody else here that maybe I'll have a thing with,
Speaker 1: you know, right, and I just like generally annoyed by
Speaker 1: like the whole Xander thing. It's like added for the movie.
Speaker 1: And also adds nothing. It's like it was. It's always
Speaker 1: so frustrating to me when a random guys added into
Speaker 1: a scene where there's a more interesting female character literally
Speaker 1: sitting right next to him for the every scene he's in,
Speaker 1: like her captain, Like, I'm like there could we could
Speaker 1: she could we talk to her? You know, she gets
Speaker 1: killed and then it's just about this guy Xander, like
Speaker 1: are they gonna kiss? Or are they going to hit
Speaker 1: an asteroid? And that happens like forty times. He also
Speaker 1: has no personality, like we we literally know nothing about him.
Speaker 1: He's introduced in the most like basic way of like
Speaker 1: they're playing some weird new version of football gymnastics Football
Speaker 1: gymnastics football was fun. That was like one of my
Speaker 1: favorite parts. And they're all right, if we all right,
Speaker 1: we're gonna prove who's the better guy for you're a
Speaker 1: girl by who wins this sports game, and you're like,
Speaker 1: first of all, she doesn't care at all, and also
Speaker 1: why do you what is happening like? And then the
Speaker 1: two of them have another fight later on where he's like,
Speaker 1: you know what, let's punch each other. Rank doesn't even matter,
Speaker 1: and then they just like have this like BROI fist fight,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, yeah, I was like, don't care about this.
Speaker 1: And it's also like even Carmen looks bored during this
Speaker 1: scene because she's like this is just like is this necessary?
Speaker 1: And it's like, yeah, I wish I knew what was
Speaker 1: on your mind. I don't know. And also it's like
Speaker 1: in general, I don't know. It's we sort of we
Speaker 1: weirdly talked about this on our Cadet Kelly episode, but
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, I don't know. In this movie,
Speaker 1: it's like, I guess you don't often see women in
Speaker 1: combat in movies, but like this, I don't want to
Speaker 1: see fascist women in combat. How is that? Like that's
Speaker 1: not the representation win I think this movie. I was
Speaker 1: gonna say, if if fans of yours suggest that this movie,
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if it's because because of the little crumbs
Speaker 1: that you're still getting there is a there is a
Speaker 1: way to look at this and be like wow, like
Speaker 1: they had women in so many in high ranks of
Speaker 1: like every part of this military. Like she becomes a pilot,
Speaker 1: Like she does better than him. She becomes a pilot,
Speaker 1: Like you know, you have Dias who's like really great.
Speaker 1: She has her captain is a woman, like when the
Speaker 1: general gets taken over, that's like a black woman. Like,
Speaker 1: so there's like there are and like there are women
Speaker 1: in combat, and there's never um no one's ever saying
Speaker 1: things like you're you fight pretty good for a girl,
Speaker 1: or like there's nothing like that, like I've I grew
Speaker 1: up one of the boys, like you're not getting any
Speaker 1: else on the football team, you know. Like so like
Speaker 1: in a in a certain way, like if you're just
Speaker 1: looking at the like kind of general setting that this
Speaker 1: world is placed in your like, Okay, it seems like
Speaker 1: women have some sort of parody in this world. But
Speaker 1: then the movie is still following the guy, you know,
Speaker 1: and and because of that, any real conversations are always
Speaker 1: about him or happening because of him, or as the audience,
Speaker 1: we're supposed to be thinking about what is going to
Speaker 1: happen to him because of what else is happening, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. So, and the women are still
Speaker 1: framed as like basically just being romantic prospects for him
Speaker 1: supposed to be like a love triangle that we don't
Speaker 1: care about because that's his story, and his whole story
Speaker 1: is a is a romantic story, Like even at the
Speaker 1: end where he's like rab military, Like what does that mean?
Speaker 1: What does that even mean for him? Like what what
Speaker 1: decision has he come to outside of just like fascism
Speaker 1: is good? I guess I don't know, but he he
Speaker 1: only has that like the whole journey, that whole character
Speaker 1: arc because he joined the military for Karen's like otherwise
Speaker 1: he was going to go to Harvard or something. Just
Speaker 1: another super weak decision too, because it's also like they
Speaker 1: knew that they were going to get separated immediately, Like
Speaker 1: his motivation in the movie makes no sense. He knows
Speaker 1: he's not going to go to pilot school. He might
Speaker 1: as well just be going to college, like they would
Speaker 1: still be communicating the same way. Like, I don't know.
Speaker 1: That was one of the things I thought the book
Speaker 1: did better. Is it at least like he was motivated
Speaker 1: by something that wasn't just like sure, why not? Like
Speaker 1: it just just so strange. I don't know. And then
Speaker 1: on the other hand, you have Dissea's character. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: I'm so fucking frustrated because there's I had to like
Speaker 1: text Kaitlin to make sure I didn't miss something. But Diz,
Speaker 1: he clearly joined the military to follow Johnny who joined
Speaker 1: the military to follow Carmen, And I'm just like, why
Speaker 1: are we all? What are we doing here? And then
Speaker 1: Dizzy denies that. She denies that she joined the military
Speaker 1: to follows. Yeah, but then it's like, but clearly she did,
Speaker 1: and there's no other nothing else has ever presented. So
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I guess her dying words are at
Speaker 1: least I got you, So she clearly that's exactly why
Speaker 1: she She literally had no other purpose in life. That
Speaker 1: was also a really weak, bizarre death. See, like both
Speaker 1: actors are giving me nothing, Like She's like, at least
Speaker 1: I saw you, and he was like, oh, like You're like,
Speaker 1: oh this is so gross. She's like, at least I
Speaker 1: got to fuck you one time in a sleeping bag
Speaker 1: like so bleak um. But but yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Dizzy is so such a frustrating character because I feel
Speaker 1: like Paul Verhoven is almost trying to do this flip
Speaker 1: thing of like, look, she's aggressively pursuing him and ignoring
Speaker 1: his boundaries that he's setting, and it's like that's not
Speaker 1: something you need gender swapped. Really, you don't just swap
Speaker 1: it and be like is it woke there, like not really,
Speaker 1: But what's the interesting is that it's riz Right. That's
Speaker 1: her characters. Why did I say rizz her name isn't
Speaker 1: right Disney. Out of all of them, she seemed like
Speaker 1: the one best equipped to be in the military. And
Speaker 1: then there is that part that happens to where well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I was wondering your your takes on that, where like
Speaker 1: they're doing the obsotitcle course and she like knocks the
Speaker 1: two guys, you know, into the mud. And then like
Speaker 1: even like when they first they did something, it was
Speaker 1: like her plan that like got them to win whatever
Speaker 1: combat training exercise they were doing. And then he was like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, like Disney does, he helped. But then like
Speaker 1: when it came down to when he got to Pick,
Speaker 1: like when he was in command again and he like
Speaker 1: needed whatever I don't know if it wasn't lieutenant but whatever,
Speaker 1: like right hand Man Corporates, he needed a core full
Speaker 1: and then he Picks is like, no, I already already
Speaker 1: screwed it up, dude. I I love that he is
Speaker 1: being honest with himself. He's like, I am ill equipped,
Speaker 1: I am just a nepotism pick. I just showed up here.
Speaker 1: I'm just Gary Busey's son to please don't pick me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and and only then after Gary Busey's son he's probably
Speaker 1: got a first name, but Jake. Yeah, So only after
Speaker 1: Jake Busey's character, Like it's like, no, I'm not I'm
Speaker 1: gonna mess this up again? Does Johnny then turned to
Speaker 1: Dizzy and be like, what do you want this? Do you?
Speaker 1: How about I guess you're right there? So but it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: she has proven herself to be capable, but it seems
Speaker 1: like she keeps getting passed over for promotions and on
Speaker 1: top of that, because I sometimes get kind of like
Speaker 1: frustrated when it's like the movie is like I am
Speaker 1: feminist because for something like justin almost Mary suing a
Speaker 1: female character. But but that doesn't even happen to Dizzy
Speaker 1: because we know that she's like a better football player
Speaker 1: than Johnny at the beginning, like she's she is the
Speaker 1: most athletic character, but then she's like never. It's I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't know why they go so out of the
Speaker 1: way to have her never be anyone's top pick for anything,
Speaker 1: because it was like we're supposed to be in this
Speaker 1: post gender world because other women are getting opportunity. So
Speaker 1: I was like, well, then, what why is it her
Speaker 1: that we don't see, like what's her name? Is flying
Speaker 1: up the ranks? I mean Carmen is like Carmen's flying
Speaker 1: up those She's driving a fucking forward focus in space.
Speaker 1: Like it's yeah, I I hadn't even thought about like
Speaker 1: comparing their careers, but it's like there's I don't understand
Speaker 1: the reason why Dizzy wouldn't be kind of flying up
Speaker 1: the ranks because she's more capable and this is supposed
Speaker 1: to be a world where it doesn't matter. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: then I also wanted to talk about women getting fridged
Speaker 1: or damseled in this movie, because Dizzy is fridged because
Speaker 1: she's killed in combat. And then going back to Carmen
Speaker 1: really quick she there's a similar sort of like damseling
Speaker 1: scene at the end where it plays out in a
Speaker 1: less bad way than I thought it would, where I
Speaker 1: thought she would like really have to be like, you know,
Speaker 1: Johnny would have to swoop in and really save the day,
Speaker 1: but she like holds, she chops off the bit you know,
Speaker 1: the brain bugs brain sucking tube, uh, and like kind
Speaker 1: of like gets away herself. But even so I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 1: these women are friends in such a way where they
Speaker 1: are horny for the men around them. Whoever is closest
Speaker 1: to them is like whoever they're most horny for, and uh,
Speaker 1: then they are killed or damseled. Usually I choose to
Speaker 1: interpret Carmen as never being that interested in Johnny because
Speaker 1: it seems like Johnny's bullying Carmen into being in a
Speaker 1: relationship with it. It's again that same weird chain of command.
Speaker 1: Johnny is trying to bully Carmen into loving him. Meanwhile
Speaker 1: Dizzy is trying to bully Johnny into loving her. And
Speaker 1: then at the end you're like, I'm I don't want
Speaker 1: any of it. And then Karl's just like I'm a fascist,
Speaker 1: like he's interested in no one. I don't think this
Speaker 1: is any credit to the movie. But at the end,
Speaker 1: they're not like together. They don't have like a one
Speaker 1: of those like kiss, you know, victory kisses that we
Speaker 1: see at the end of movies a lot of times,
Speaker 1: Like she's not She doesn't say anything like we should
Speaker 1: have always been together anything like that. It's just like,
Speaker 1: you know, they still care about it. It's I think
Speaker 1: in the reality of what was presented they wouldn't get together.
Speaker 1: Like at the end, she'd be like, you're such a
Speaker 1: great friend and we should still remain friends. By the way,
Speaker 1: just just in case you were, you were must be
Speaker 1: friends and fascists like all three of us are. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we all the war for you know, killed the bugs.
Speaker 1: When ultimately, like Dizzy being fridged kind of like I
Speaker 1: feel like feeds into this narrative of like she was
Speaker 1: the right girl for him because she was willing to
Speaker 1: die for him in the state, unlike Carmen who wanted
Speaker 1: to fly a chip Like I don't know, the test
Speaker 1: audiences thought that, like you should have killed the woman
Speaker 1: who wanted a job. I don't know. Ultimately, I was
Speaker 1: very uncomfortable looking for feminist messaging inside of a fascist movie,
Speaker 1: and that was I was like, women can be Nazis too,
Speaker 1: I know, it was like this is the reader. If
Speaker 1: the reader taught me anything, it's that women can also
Speaker 1: be Nazis. This I mean, I appreciate that Paul Verhoved
Speaker 1: wanted to say something with this movie, but I just
Speaker 1: don't think that he was successful. Yeah, going back to
Speaker 1: the world building of the story and like the quote
Speaker 1: unquote utopia that this movie is taking place within There
Speaker 1: does seem to be gender parity in the world of
Speaker 1: this story. Sexism doesn't really seem to exist. They tell
Speaker 1: us that the movie makes sexist choices because it's a
Speaker 1: movie from the nineties, but the world it is depicting
Speaker 1: seems to be less sexist, and I feel like a
Speaker 1: similar thing is happening regarding race, where again the movie
Speaker 1: makes racist choices, but like, part of the world building
Speaker 1: in this story is that racism doesn't seem to be
Speaker 1: much of a problem, which also none of this tracks
Speaker 1: for fascism, Like the racism and sexism wouldn't exist in
Speaker 1: a fascist society, so I don't really understand that. But
Speaker 1: the movie, like, yeah, it's making some some weird choices
Speaker 1: regarding race. Jamie, you had mentioned that in the book
Speaker 1: the characters are Filipino and then that gets whitewashed for
Speaker 1: the movie. Yes, And the way the director explains whitewashing
Speaker 1: it was like he essentially says that he doesn't think
Speaker 1: that an audience will understand a world like he's like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: if they're fascists, it would feel weird for them to
Speaker 1: not be extremely white, which is like I see where
Speaker 1: he's going with it. I see where he's going to it,
Speaker 1: but but whitewashing the entire movie seems like an extreme
Speaker 1: end to go to to. I don't know, Like, well,
Speaker 1: once again, it's like, sure, but your movie wasn't really
Speaker 1: anti fascist in any real way. So like, like again,
Speaker 1: it's just one of those things where it just seems
Speaker 1: like a it's like a nice thing to say, but
Speaker 1: it's like, but that's not really what you were doing.
Speaker 1: You know you were you weren't making much of a commentary.
Speaker 1: Just adding a couple of scenes doesn't make much commentary
Speaker 1: on like why we shouldn't be anti fastest, especially when
Speaker 1: that everyone wins in the end, Like I don't write
Speaker 1: the fascist switch. I uh, that's I feel. Most of
Speaker 1: my problems with this movie go back to the fact
Speaker 1: that like everything that director describes of like what he
Speaker 1: wants to do sounds like pretty interesting and sounds but that,
Speaker 1: but he just failed at all of those things, like
Speaker 1: none of the things happened. I found a quote from
Speaker 1: an article in screen Rant entitled Starship Troopers meaning explained
Speaker 1: what it was really about love These kinds of articles,
Speaker 1: they're like what happened at the end of that'sh I
Speaker 1: read so many of these articles and reviews being like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, Star Show Troopers is brilliant satire and
Speaker 1: if you can't see that, then well there's something wrong
Speaker 1: with you. Um So, as this title suggests, this is
Speaker 1: another one of these articles. I've yet to find anything
Speaker 1: in any of these articles that gives any kind of
Speaker 1: convincing exam couples or arguments about saying why and how
Speaker 1: the satire is clear and effective. None of them have
Speaker 1: been able to exp They're just like, well, you know
Speaker 1: a lot of the audiences took the film at face value,
Speaker 1: but they're missing the point because well, the movie puts
Speaker 1: the characters in Nazi regalia, So that's obvious satire, get it,
Speaker 1: But it's not obvious satire if the Nazis win, Like
Speaker 1: I don't understand how hard that is to explain, because
Speaker 1: it's like he's explaining Star Warship that like it's clearer
Speaker 1: in Star Wars because they're the bad guys, or if
Speaker 1: like even if they do win, if it's so obviously horrible,
Speaker 1: like if it's so obviously horrible to us, but again,
Speaker 1: the motivation, like even having the motivation for Johnny change
Speaker 1: because his parents were killed by the bugs. Like that's real.
Speaker 1: That's a real thing now, Like now I'm in now
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, I mean like maybe the reason this
Speaker 1: war started wasn't great, but these bugs just like destroyed
Speaker 1: an entire city, like millions and millions of people. Like
Speaker 1: that's a real reason to go to war, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like that's a real reason to like
Speaker 1: join an army and be like I'm gonna be like
Speaker 1: either defend Earth or enact revenge because like you're everyone
Speaker 1: you knew was killed, like you know, whether that even
Speaker 1: the revenge part, even if that's wrong, you can there's
Speaker 1: still like a you know, a touch point that we
Speaker 1: all we can relate to it like yeah, man, if
Speaker 1: like if everybody I knew was wiped out, like and
Speaker 1: I had nothing else to live for, like you know,
Speaker 1: so that's that's what I'm talking about, Like we and
Speaker 1: then we don't get any of that. Like like there's
Speaker 1: like a slight satirical thing for him, like when he
Speaker 1: when Neil Patrick Harris is there and he's like that's
Speaker 1: what we're infantry for. We do the dying, you know,
Speaker 1: and blah blah blah does the flying. But then like
Speaker 1: but then they win and like the guy was proven right,
Speaker 1: Like he was like, all right, we captured the like
Speaker 1: all of my everything I did worked, you know, and
Speaker 1: it was like, okay, so it just like it does
Speaker 1: and land at all like it. Well, here's the quote
Speaker 1: from this article. Quote in a two fourteen interview with
Speaker 1: the Adam Corolla Show, a Great Start, Okay, said the
Speaker 1: king of perfect takes. What did he say? Michael Ironside,
Speaker 1: who plays Um rass Check in the film, Um, who
Speaker 1: played a militant officer in Starship Troopers, said that he
Speaker 1: asked Verehoven why he was making a right wing fascist movie.
Speaker 1: To that, Verehoven told him, if I tell the world
Speaker 1: that a right wing fascist way of doing things doesn't work,
Speaker 1: no one will listen to me. So I'm going to
Speaker 1: make a perfect fascist world. Everyone is beautiful, everything is shiny,
Speaker 1: everything has big guns and fancy ships, but it's only
Speaker 1: good for killing fucking bugs. End quote. So the director
Speaker 1: clearly wanted a message that was more subtle and like
Speaker 1: not super preachy, which I totally understand for certain things,
Speaker 1: but I don't think that subtlety is necessarily the way
Speaker 1: to go when speaking out against fascism. The other thing
Speaker 1: that's hard about this is like it's not like everyone
Speaker 1: in that world was like we need to kill Like, yes,
Speaker 1: the people in the army were like that, but like
Speaker 1: we get a sense that there is a world to
Speaker 1: fight for, you know what I mean, Like there's a
Speaker 1: world to defend for. And the intro to all this
Speaker 1: is like the bugs are like hurling asteroids at Earth,
Speaker 1: and we know that like an asteroid in real life
Speaker 1: like killed all of the dinosaurs, So it's kind of like, yeah,
Speaker 1: they're trying to commit like a genocide of the human race,
Speaker 1: so that's a legitimate reason to fight people. And then
Speaker 1: the only suggestion that we get that like humans start
Speaker 1: at the war is like these like one liners I
Speaker 1: think that come at like two differ in points and
Speaker 1: it's not explained at all. So and we don't relate
Speaker 1: to the bugs at all. So I don't know why
Speaker 1: anyone would look at this movie and go, I don't
Speaker 1: want to live in this world, because at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, I'm like, yeah, like maybe I wouldn't
Speaker 1: want to join the military, but I'm glad we have
Speaker 1: a military. I'm glad they're doing what they do. So
Speaker 1: that I don't get wiped out by an asteroid being
Speaker 1: hurled at, right. It's like even because it's like we
Speaker 1: we have not covered many movies about war on this show, uh,
Speaker 1: and I do think like it is like I have
Speaker 1: like a lot of different feelings about war movies, but
Speaker 1: it's like there are war movies that are well done
Speaker 1: that make it like clear the like brutal nous and
Speaker 1: the different sacrifices and the different reasons that everyone comes
Speaker 1: to be in a war, whether they want to or not,
Speaker 1: depending on what the war is. And it's like this
Speaker 1: movie starts that and then it just doesn't do anything
Speaker 1: with it. Like I really do like the group shower
Speaker 1: scene in this movie that I feel like it's like
Speaker 1: the strongest start you get into like some insight into
Speaker 1: like why people are you know, why people in list
Speaker 1: and like what the different circumstances are that kind of
Speaker 1: bring you there instead of doing a wide sweeping like
Speaker 1: war and everyone who participates it in is bad. Like
Speaker 1: that is like an easy point to make for someone
Speaker 1: who has never been involved in a war, like I don't.
Speaker 1: But then it just all falls apart. Man, it's a bummer, yeah, um,
Speaker 1: And then to go back to that conversation about race. Um,
Speaker 1: so we have these whitewashed characters, which, like I understand
Speaker 1: the intention behind Verhoven's choice to do that. Instead, though,
Speaker 1: he has the characters be from Argentina and they maintain
Speaker 1: their Latin names from the book. So you know, you've
Speaker 1: got like Juan Rico, Carmen Ibanez, Dizzy Flores like, but
Speaker 1: they're all played by like white American actors. It's weird
Speaker 1: and I don't like, I'm just like, well, I don't
Speaker 1: know what Argentina is, like you know, seven hundred years
Speaker 1: in the future when this movie takes place or whenever
Speaker 1: it's supposed to take place. But that just felt like
Speaker 1: another peculiar choice. And again it's not even like he's
Speaker 1: like saying this, but it's like, yeah, but there are
Speaker 1: black people. There are people of color like in the film,
Speaker 1: Like it's just that they're not they're all supporting characters.
Speaker 1: Like they're all like minor supporting characters. Like, so you
Speaker 1: just had all your leads be white. I don't know,
Speaker 1: you can say whatever you want, like, it's like it's
Speaker 1: not like you had it's not like some genocide had
Speaker 1: taken place in like all of like in this world
Speaker 1: there are no black people anymore, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Or whatever. It is like it's like they're still there.
Speaker 1: They clearly can serve, like they can reach high ranking positions,
Speaker 1: just that we don't know who any of those people
Speaker 1: are because you're not focusing on any of them. And
Speaker 1: it even seems like to the point where there's kind
Speaker 1: of like a revolving door of non white characters where
Speaker 1: we meet who's the who's the woman we meet in
Speaker 1: boot camp who is partially responsible for the for the
Speaker 1: guy's head being blown off, and like it's her Johnny
Speaker 1: that they're like they're the two people, and then she
Speaker 1: leaves the military. Fair enough, I would also be like
Speaker 1: this is clearly not for me. But it's like we
Speaker 1: we had a strong introduction to her, like she was
Speaker 1: like I want to be in politics and like I
Speaker 1: have this dream and I was like, oh cool, But
Speaker 1: then ten minutes later she was like I'm out of here.
Speaker 1: I feel like she didn't leave on her own ac court.
Speaker 1: I feel like she got like discharged, Like yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: not even sure, because then Johnny has to like fight
Speaker 1: to stay exactly well, they were going to maybe boot
Speaker 1: him and they were like they were like, look, we
Speaker 1: already lost two soldiers for this, let's not lose a third.
Speaker 1: And then it was kind of like, what why do
Speaker 1: you want to say that, dude, not that right, black
Speaker 1: just kicked out. But the fact that it's not even clear,
Speaker 1: because my read was she left on her own accord
Speaker 1: because she was just so upset over the death of
Speaker 1: this team member of hers so like. But the fact
Speaker 1: that it's not clear means that we, like the story
Speaker 1: doesn't bother to check in with her and like see
Speaker 1: how she's feeling or what exactly happened because of the
Speaker 1: movie has no vested interest in any of the characters
Speaker 1: who are people of color. Yeah, there's no explanation. It's
Speaker 1: the basically, we get one image and it's her with
Speaker 1: her backpack crying looking at everybody in the background of
Speaker 1: the scene, like you're like that that was so freight
Speaker 1: and then our other I like that. The other black
Speaker 1: characters we get to know well are Corporal Sugar Watkins.
Speaker 1: And then who is that that there's the dude from
Speaker 1: The Walking Dead. Yea, to you, he's dude from the
Speaker 1: Walking Dead. To me, he's the guy from Teen Wolf.
Speaker 1: He's been a lot of TV. I guess he was
Speaker 1: also on the wire, but unfortunately, yes, that's right, he's
Speaker 1: on the wire. He's a cop on the wire. My
Speaker 1: brain doesn't work, and therefore I know him from teen Wolf,
Speaker 1: the series that's hilarious. But yeah, Watkins, that character. He's
Speaker 1: the guy who sacrifices himself at the end for all
Speaker 1: of the white people. And we don't meet him till
Speaker 1: halfway through, like there he just he shows up in
Speaker 1: the middle of the second act, and it's like there's
Speaker 1: no there's no non white characters that we get to
Speaker 1: see their storyline all the way through at all. I
Speaker 1: don't even think any of them survive that, right, I
Speaker 1: wonder the other one because there are two black people.
Speaker 1: It was like him. It was like him and the
Speaker 1: and the and that woman right, yeah, whose name? I
Speaker 1: feel like I said out loud once what is her name?
Speaker 1: So many people die? I can't believe, how did Johnny
Speaker 1: live through that attack? By the way, did we ever
Speaker 1: talk about that? Like, how did he how did he
Speaker 1: possibly vibe? How did they get him out of there?
Speaker 1: He's not even hood like, he's not even how did
Speaker 1: he possibly live? They were gone, everyone had fallen back,
Speaker 1: there was like legions of bugs swarming. There was one
Speaker 1: that comes crawling on top of him when he's completely pinned,
Speaker 1: and we're supposed to we're supposed to believe that not
Speaker 1: only did they get him out of here, but they
Speaker 1: but he survived, right right? Who saved him? I feel
Speaker 1: like I I've already stated I do not I'm not
Speaker 1: a fan of Xander, but he was definitely better at
Speaker 1: war than Johnny was, and he got his brain sucked out,
Speaker 1: but when he was surrounded by like one tenth of
Speaker 1: the amount of bugs, he got his brain sucked dry.
Speaker 1: I love the idea that sucking like they can find
Speaker 1: out information by sucking the brains like live like because
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, they're still alive. So like if we
Speaker 1: suck there like live brains will like it's ingestre in formation.
Speaker 1: Like I don't even know what that was supposed to be.
Speaker 1: I will say I do like of the things I
Speaker 1: do like about this movie. Uh, I love nasty, nasty
Speaker 1: body horror effects, and this movie really does deliver if
Speaker 1: you're a fan of nasty body. Dude, people are getting
Speaker 1: slow my god like cartoons slaughter. Yeah, Like it wasn't
Speaker 1: even close like like they just ripped apart limb from limb,
Speaker 1: just impaled constantly, just like they're the brains suck that.
Speaker 1: You're just like, oh, so it's so I'm hard to
Speaker 1: like get grossed out, but there was something I was like, fuck,
Speaker 1: that is absolutely disgusting, and I feel like, you know,
Speaker 1: it's so funny. I feel like I feel like I've
Speaker 1: seen I saw this movie a couple of times, and
Speaker 1: one time I didn't watch it all the way through,
Speaker 1: and I just thought that they just all died at
Speaker 1: the end because I was just like, well, there's no
Speaker 1: chance they're getting out of this, like when they're well,
Speaker 1: like when they get trapped in that like desert things
Speaker 1: like there's there's zero chance you make it out of here.
Speaker 1: And I feel like that's how this movie should have ended,
Speaker 1: which is like everyone die, like just everyone dying, and
Speaker 1: then it would have been then I would have been
Speaker 1: like it is kind of a critique on fascism, isn't
Speaker 1: it right? Yeah, fascism doesn't work. The bugs will kill
Speaker 1: you one, Um, what a disaster. Truly. Also worth noting
Speaker 1: that there are a couple disabled characters, the main one
Speaker 1: being roz Check, who is played by an able bodied
Speaker 1: actor Michael Ironside. His character has an arm that's been amputated. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's like very very of this era to not
Speaker 1: even consider having a disabled actor play a disabled character.
Speaker 1: But on top of that, it's like it seems like
Speaker 1: his disability is mainly used to scare people, which is
Speaker 1: uh also uh not very thoughtful. Uh. Top to bottom,
Speaker 1: it felt like intentional to be like look at like
Speaker 1: the like this is what war does to you. It's
Speaker 1: like just dismembers you. And but these people are all
Speaker 1: still serving, you know, and they're like you should be
Speaker 1: lucky to like go to war and lose a leg,
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, and there's some interesting commentary to be
Speaker 1: had there. Did the movie make it? Yeah? Again, any
Speaker 1: commentary this movie makes is is like passing and suggestions,
Speaker 1: but like never the actual point of the movie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I was. I was truly surprised at how
Speaker 1: many writers and critics and like have just like kind
Speaker 1: of put it all on the line to say that
Speaker 1: actually this movie is saying everything. But it's like, well,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I guess we will just have to
Speaker 1: agree to disagree there with all the people who wrote
Speaker 1: what you don't understand about Starship Troopers. You tiny brained fool, Like, right,
Speaker 1: what did you get your brain sucked out? You don't
Speaker 1: even know that this movie is awesome satires, get your
Speaker 1: brains gone by a bug? That's the thing is like,
Speaker 1: there's just like, yeah, there's a little again, We've said
Speaker 1: this so many times. There's a little bit, but it's
Speaker 1: not enough. It's just I don't know. Yeah, I have
Speaker 1: to imagine that this was hard to get a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff approved. And it's like, I will give Verhoven
Speaker 1: the fact that it's like, especially with the movie with
Speaker 1: this big of a budget, like I'm sure that he
Speaker 1: that stuff that would have he would have liked to
Speaker 1: have in the movie didn't end up in there, and like,
Speaker 1: but but there's so many high level decisions that fail
Speaker 1: that it's like, well, he's got to take he's got
Speaker 1: to take the l to some extent. Yeah, it's disappoint
Speaker 1: it's disappointing. It's like I was actually hoping that there
Speaker 1: would be a lot more commentary than it feels like that.
Speaker 1: It feels like there was, and it's just like one
Speaker 1: of these things where I'm like nobody who believes in
Speaker 1: this stuff is going to watch this movie and think
Speaker 1: that their way of thinking is incorrect. Like, if anything,
Speaker 1: this movie we just reaffirms what people believe, you know,
Speaker 1: Like yeah, because that's what that's that's the consequences of
Speaker 1: the movie. The gods because of the movie are like, Yeah,
Speaker 1: this guy is a hero and he saved a bunch
Speaker 1: of people, and he, you know, was dedicated to the cause,
Speaker 1: and if everybody works together and we're militaristics, they will
Speaker 1: always defend our home. Like I don't know, like, there's
Speaker 1: no there's nothing else presented for that to for that
Speaker 1: to not be thee I totally agree. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: see a fascist watching this movie and then being like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I was so wrong. I need to
Speaker 1: change my mind. Has a fascist mind that change by
Speaker 1: Starship Troopers. That's the true yardstick. And like, I want
Speaker 1: to be clear that people are welcome to disagree with us.
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are listeners who see this movie as
Speaker 1: clear and effective satire, especially because, like as director Paul
Speaker 1: Verhoeven has stated, that was his intent with the film.
Speaker 1: So I'm not arguing about his intentions. And he's coming
Speaker 1: from a particularly he's coming from a place where he
Speaker 1: is better qualified than a lot of people to make
Speaker 1: art critiquing fascism because he was raised in Nazi occupied Amsterdam.
Speaker 1: My argument is that for me, his intentions did not
Speaker 1: come across as clearly as I think they could or
Speaker 1: should have if you're trying to condemn militaristic fascist ideologies.
Speaker 1: I agree. Yeah, I don't know. I and I also like,
Speaker 1: I I really, I really love the intent behind this movie,
Speaker 1: and I think it's like a really ballsy idea to
Speaker 1: be like, I'm going to take this source material that's
Speaker 1: really fucked up and I'm going to say the opposite
Speaker 1: while using the same story. Like, I don't think that
Speaker 1: that's an impossible thing to do, but it just it
Speaker 1: just didn't work out for this one. We should do
Speaker 1: more Paul Verhoeven movies, though, he I mean, what a catalog,
Speaker 1: what a legacy. How have we not done show Girls
Speaker 1: at this point? Oh my gosh, she simply must shocking.
Speaker 1: We'll get there. That's a good one to do for
Speaker 1: this podcast, for sure. Yeah, does this movie pass the
Speaker 1: Bechtel test? I don't know. I think it does. I
Speaker 1: think it very very briefly. Does they are standards which
Speaker 1: are like, I mean the standards of the test in
Speaker 1: general are pretty a little bit. Carmen and her commanding officer,
Speaker 1: who is named, but what is her name? She is? Oh,
Speaker 1: that was my question. She does get named, but I
Speaker 1: could not tell you exactly what it is. Dizzy talks
Speaker 1: to a corporal as well. That's the other thing I had.
Speaker 1: And then Dizzy and Carmen do have one scene where
Speaker 1: there at least one scene um where uh, Carmen's like, hi, Disney,
Speaker 1: and Disney says Carmen, we know their names, face me
Speaker 1: to each other. The like subtext behind that is connected
Speaker 1: to a boy. Yeah, they're like, oh yeah, who, like,
Speaker 1: are you dating my ex boyfriend? Oh my god. The
Speaker 1: looks that Dizzy shoots Carmen while Carmen's minding her business
Speaker 1: is very funny. But it's it's a loose pass. It's
Speaker 1: a barely pass. Yeah, it's a it's a loose pass.
Speaker 1: Yeah all right, Yeah. I think something I want to
Speaker 1: do moving forward, just for like my personal Bechdel test
Speaker 1: um analysis is could the conversation that arguably does pass
Speaker 1: the Betel tests be removed from the movie and the
Speaker 1: movie is no different or like the plot is not effective,
Speaker 1: Like is it an important conversation that like informs the story.
Speaker 1: If not, then it's like a not good pass. I
Speaker 1: like that, thank you so much. I mean, it's so
Speaker 1: hard for this film because there's like a part of
Speaker 1: me that's like, does any like what is the story
Speaker 1: really at the end of the you know what? What
Speaker 1: is the takeaway? It's so hard to care about any
Speaker 1: of these characters. But I guess in terms of like
Speaker 1: Carmen's journey, her relationship with the captain, even though it's
Speaker 1: so barely there, is like informative to like her character
Speaker 1: arc in some way, and she does become the captain. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so like her the captain like talking to her about anything,
Speaker 1: which is generally about her career. It's like because that's
Speaker 1: kind of her motivation. So yeah, I guess in that sense,
Speaker 1: it's because if her captain wasn't it wasn't a woman,
Speaker 1: then that this movie would have no shot, right right,
Speaker 1: it's not. It simply is not. I don't know, like
Speaker 1: I should Should we just do the ratings? Yeah, let's
Speaker 1: just do a nipple rating, which is a scale of
Speaker 1: zero to five nipples based on an examination of the
Speaker 1: movie through an intersectional feminist lens So all things considered,
Speaker 1: everything we talked about, I'm going to have to give
Speaker 1: this movie maybe a half nipple. The women in this
Speaker 1: movie are framed in relation to like the men in
Speaker 1: their life, or like they're there because they know Johnny
Speaker 1: Rico kind of thing, and I just didn't find really
Speaker 1: any of their arc source storylines very compelling. And then
Speaker 1: again the execution of this political satire not being very clear.
Speaker 1: I think here's here's what I wrote in my notes,
Speaker 1: Team America World Police is more effective satire and condemnation
Speaker 1: of like military practices than Starship. Absolutely thank you is
Speaker 1: like because it's so the intent is so clear. You
Speaker 1: can disagree with like the jokes that they do and
Speaker 1: and that kind of stuff, but there it's it's it's
Speaker 1: such an obvious thing of being like, this is how
Speaker 1: America sees itself. It's so absolutely and utterly ridiculous that
Speaker 1: we see ourselves as the world please because that's really
Speaker 1: absolutely yeah. And that's not to say that like that
Speaker 1: satire can't be subtle, but if it's so subtle that
Speaker 1: it's not really there, such as Starship Troopers, it doesn't
Speaker 1: really work. Yeah. Um, well anyway, yeah, half nipple and
Speaker 1: I'll give it to the bugs because you know they've
Speaker 1: just they were just colonized and what did they do wrong? Right? Yeah?
Speaker 1: From from intersectional feminist Lens. I I'm giving good zero.
Speaker 1: I don't want, I don't like, I don't I don't
Speaker 1: want to root for a fascist girl boss and I'm
Speaker 1: not going to. So I'm giving good zero because even
Speaker 1: when the women are portrayed with arcs and with dreams
Speaker 1: and with ambitions, um, they're they're fascists. I don't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: no nipples, no nipples, none to distribute. Come on, I appreciate.
Speaker 1: I appreciate the Verhoeven effort. I am. I I like,
Speaker 1: I think his work is really risky and and bizarre.
Speaker 1: And this just what this one didn't didn't hit for me.
Speaker 1: Um yeah, I feel like I'm graving grading it on
Speaker 1: a curve and also based on my own expectations coming in.
Speaker 1: So I was going to give it one and a
Speaker 1: half only because I did think that for what the
Speaker 1: world was like, they did have women in different positions
Speaker 1: and like they had black women too, and like you know,
Speaker 1: she like took over the military, and you know they
Speaker 1: were like good, like they could hold their own there wasn't.
Speaker 1: You know. I just feel like this time period, there's
Speaker 1: there's so much of that like, oh, your sporty spice,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like you're the oh you're
Speaker 1: a tomboy like and that that conversation like just truly
Speaker 1: didn't even exist in the film, and like people seemed
Speaker 1: to acknowledge everyone's skills for what they were and they
Speaker 1: didn't like add gender on top of that. Yeah that said,
Speaker 1: like it's still I mean, it was just completely like
Speaker 1: the movies, like like everything the movie says is not Yeah,
Speaker 1: it has nothing to do with any of that. But
Speaker 1: I don't know, I just I just feel like it
Speaker 1: still did more than a lot of films at the time,
Speaker 1: which wasn't saying much. But yeah, yeah what a time.
Speaker 1: We did get Titanic, Oh my gosh. Yeah. Um, all right,
Speaker 1: so that's Starship Troopers. You asked for it. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: for the people who ask you happy now, I hope
Speaker 1: you're happy. I bet they're not, though, I bet they're
Speaker 1: not that they wanted us to be, like it's secretly genius.
Speaker 1: They're furious with us. Yeah, the people who asked for
Speaker 1: it aren't happy, and the people who didn't ask for
Speaker 1: our like I didn't ask. They're really unhappy. They're not
Speaker 1: listening right now. They're like, I'm upset, amazing, how this
Speaker 1: is our worst episode ever. I'm I'm actually genuinely very
Speaker 1: glad that we went down the rabbit hole in this
Speaker 1: one because I feel curious about it for a long time.
Speaker 1: And uh, it is, I mean, it's it. I don't
Speaker 1: think it accomplishes what it's trying to, but it's definitely unique.
Speaker 1: I've never seen a movie like this, and I so
Speaker 1: there is that indeed. Jonathan, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: being here with us, for joining us in this discussion.
Speaker 1: Where can people check out your stuff? Follow you on
Speaker 1: social media? Yeah, you can follow me at John Braylock
Speaker 1: j O N B R A Y L O C
Speaker 1: k uh podcast Black Men Can't Jump in Hollywood's available
Speaker 1: where we get your podcasts if you want to. We
Speaker 1: also we talk about films with leading black actors in
Speaker 1: the context of race. Um, that's super fun And if
Speaker 1: you've never seen Astronomy Club on Netflix, check it out.
Speaker 1: It's fun. So on Netflix six episodes, a quick binge.
Speaker 1: We'll finish it maybe in one city. You simply mus
Speaker 1: it's very funny the best. Yeah, yeah, that's it cool. Thanks,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for hanging out with us. Yeah, thanks
Speaker 1: for having me. This was great. I would love to
Speaker 1: Yeah and uh yeah. You can follow us on social
Speaker 1: media as well, Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast. You
Speaker 1: can subscribe to our Patreon ak Matreon, patreon dot com
Speaker 1: slash Spectel Cast. It's five dollars a month and it
Speaker 1: gets you access to two bonus episodes plus the entire
Speaker 1: back catalog. So and then you can get our merch
Speaker 1: at t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast. Uh
Speaker 1: go bugs, bugs Hi