1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: Conversations on life, style, beauty, and relationships. It's The Velvet's 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: Edge Podcast with Kelly Henderson. 3 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 2: Doctor Kelly Coin is a faculty member in English and 4 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 2: American Studies at Georgetown University, and she is here today 5 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 2: to discuss a series of recent features that have been 6 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,760 Speaker 2: in The New York Times in the Washington Post about 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 2: off kilter domestic arrangements. So we're going to cover married 8 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 2: couples who live apart, stay at home dads, and married 9 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 2: married couples who sleep apart, which I think is becoming 10 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 2: much more common. 11 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 3: Hi, Kelly, Hi, Kelly, Thank you so much for having me. 12 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 2: Of course, I'm so excited to talk to you. I 13 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 2: was telling you before the podcast. This has been a 14 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 2: topic of conversation in my own personal life recently, and 15 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 2: I think one of the biggest things I love to 16 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 2: bring the listeners on this podcast is just the option 17 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 2: of something different. I think we were all kind of 18 00:00:57,640 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 2: brought up in this way that's like this is what 19 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 2: you do, and that is how you live a successful 20 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 2: life or a happy life, or create a happy life. 21 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 2: And the older I've gotten, the more I've started to 22 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 2: question that existence, you know, like I've really tried to 23 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 2: start carving a path that is unique to me and 24 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 2: that works for me, and that makes me genuinely happy, 25 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 2: not because someone else told me to do it that way, 26 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 2: but because it's truly in alignment with me. 27 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 3: I was telling you. 28 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 2: Also, I'm in a relationship and my boyfriend lives in Charleston, 29 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 2: and the constant question I'm getting from people is, well, 30 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 2: when is somebody going to make the move? Like is 31 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 2: he going to move here or to Nashville? Are you 32 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 2: going to move to Charleston? And it's so weird because 33 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 2: sometimes I'll start to feel this pressure to make these decisions, 34 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 2: and then I ask myself, is that because of me? 35 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 2: Or is that because of him? Or is that because 36 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 2: of the pressure from outside of our relationship? And the 37 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 2: truth is is we're really happy as is right now, 38 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 2: and so we're just kind of figuring it out as 39 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 2: we go. But so I love these options that you 40 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 2: present that you're writing in these arts articles about the 41 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 2: different kinds of ways that you can be married and 42 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 2: live apart that you could maybe be a stay at 43 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 2: home dad if your wife is the breadwinner, or the 44 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 2: one who wants to go out and build a business, 45 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 2: or to just sleep in separate beds, so you get 46 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 2: a good night's What made you want to start exploring 47 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 2: these topics. 48 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 4: Well, I come from a literature background, so my master's 49 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 4: is in English and my PhDs in film and media 50 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 4: studies and cultural studies. And when you study books, you 51 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 4: learn a lot about genre, right, And for instance, the 52 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 4: marriage plot is a convention of many novels that you read. 53 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 4: And I started to think about, well, does American culture 54 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 4: prescribe a certain kind of life path for women? And 55 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 4: might that be a genre? Like the first comes love, 56 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 4: then comes marriage, then comes ladies, and I think that, 57 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 4: you know, it shares many features of genre, like you 58 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 4: have that iconography of the wedding dress, and the iconography 59 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 4: then of the home and the baby carriage. And so 60 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,839 Speaker 4: once you start thinking of things as a genre, then 61 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 4: you start to realize that there isn't necessarily a natural 62 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 4: order of things, and that there are actually many conventions 63 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 4: that are imposed on us by mainstream society, you know, 64 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 4: via television. And so once I started, you know, doing 65 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 4: more ethnographic research and talking to people, I realized women's 66 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 4: lives are just so much more interesting than that, and 67 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 4: they're longer than the marriage plot, Like you might have 68 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 4: the marriage plot, but then you get divorced right or 69 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 4: you have a baby before you get married. Like, I 70 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 4: think those are the stories that we often make invisible, 71 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 4: and I really just want to bring them to the 72 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 4: surface because they're so much more common than we think. 73 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 2: Do you find that there is a difference between a 74 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 2: male mentality and a female mentality in this whole conversation, 75 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 2: because what you just described was kind of the marriage plot, 76 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 2: and I know as a young girl like that is 77 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 2: pushed into our brains as girls from a very early age, 78 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 2: like your whole goal in life is basically set up 79 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 2: to be to find a man and get married. And 80 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 2: I haven't had the conversation with men where I'm feeling 81 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 2: that they have that same pressure, not that they don't 82 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 2: get it at all, but it doesn't seem like they're 83 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 2: programming from early life is about finding that exact partner 84 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 2: to have this marriage, Like they're supposed to build a career, 85 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 2: build a whole life. So are you seeing a difference 86 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 2: in that. 87 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 4: I do. I think that women are pressured much more 88 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 4: in terms of the lifespan and the lifestyle, where men 89 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,919 Speaker 4: it's like you have to find a hot girlfriend or 90 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 4: a hot wife woman. You know, you'll start to get 91 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 4: the gesture of like tapping the ring finger, you know, 92 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 4: at baby showers, or like you're dating someone it's time 93 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 4: to start, you know, thinking about marriage, or like you're 94 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 4: encountering well, when are you gonna as though, that is 95 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 4: the inevitable outcome of rechab And I think with women, 96 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 4: the more that I speak to women, it obscures their 97 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 4: ability to actually see what they want. Like they might 98 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 4: have grown up actually not liking those stories and like 99 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 4: not identifying with them, and then they find a partner 100 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 4: they really like and they're compatible with and they're like, 101 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 4: you know what, I don't think I need to get married, 102 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 4: But the pressure will just start to eat at them 103 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 4: and the questions will start to eat at them. And 104 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 4: what concerns me is that I feel like it never 105 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 4: really stops. You know, first it's to get the ring 106 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 4: on your finger, and then it's to get married and 107 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 4: live in the same place, and then it's to have babies, 108 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 4: and then it's to make sure that those babies kind 109 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 4: of continue this upward ascent socially. And if women were saying, 110 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 4: you know, I talk to a lot of older women, 111 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 4: like in their sixties, and there have been studies that 112 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 4: have found that women after their partner dies, they actually 113 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 4: often don't want to remarry where men do, because women 114 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 4: after their partner dies will say, you know what, I love, 115 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 4: I want to have fun, I want to date, but 116 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 4: that arrangement, that marital arrangement, really put me at a disadvantage, 117 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 4: and I don't want to do that again. And they'll 118 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 4: talk about how often, you know, when they are dating, 119 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 4: men will just look for a nurse with a purse, 120 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 4: like someone who can take care of them and someone 121 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 4: who can pay for them. And so if women were 122 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 4: in their sixties and saying, listen, I really want to remarry, 123 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 4: I feel like it worked really well for me. It 124 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 4: made me really happy. I'd feel differently about the coercion, 125 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 4: but they're saying, actually, I felt like I got the 126 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 4: short end of the stick on this one, and that's 127 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 4: what concerns me about the pressure. 128 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 3: Yeah. 129 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 2: I had another guest on this podcast. You talked about 130 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,359 Speaker 2: invisible labor and relationships, and I read a lot of 131 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 2: that in your articles because you were saying that the 132 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 2: happiest people in different studies have been married men and 133 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 2: single women. Yeah, and that was really interesting to me, 134 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 2: and it made me immediately think of that invisible labor 135 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 2: conversation because I think often what I was reading in 136 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 2: the articles was that the women felt like they couldn't 137 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 2: necessarily follow their dream or really pursue their path career 138 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 2: wise or in life or whatever it was, because they 139 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 2: were giving so much energy to the relationship and also 140 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 2: to building up the man's career. And I'm sure that 141 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 2: can go in different dynamics, like in queer relationships and 142 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 2: things like that, but I know that really resonated for 143 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 2: me because there have been times in my life where 144 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 2: I've thought, oh, my career is so much more successful 145 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 2: when I'm not in a relationship. It's not necessarily true now, 146 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 2: but it has been true in the past, and that 147 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 2: was for that exact reason of the invisible labor I 148 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 2: was giving to the relationship. 149 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 4: Yep, there's the literal labor of like picking up socks, yeah, 150 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 4: whatever it is. And a lot of women say that 151 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 4: they have like different standards for cleanliness than their male partners, 152 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 4: and so they end up because they're the only ones 153 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 4: you can see the crumbs on the table. They're the 154 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 4: ones who think, okay. But I've also spoken to women 155 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 4: and we do know, especially post COVID, like women do 156 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 4: in heterosexual marriages. Women do so many more hours a 157 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,679 Speaker 4: week of domestic labor than men. But then there's also 158 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 4: this interesting emotional thing that I've heard about from a 159 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 4: few women where it's kind of like the second their 160 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 4: partner steps into the house or steps into the room, 161 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 4: they start seeing themselves as his wife, and they're like, 162 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 4: is he hungry? Is he comfortable? If he seems not happy, 163 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 4: I should ask him what's going on and try to 164 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 4: fix it for him, and you know, make him feel better. 165 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 4: And I learn, you know, I hear about mothers who 166 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 4: like forget to feed themselves. You know, they're like, I 167 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 4: was just feeding my kids all day, and that actually 168 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 4: makes sense to me. Like becoming a wife is kind 169 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 4: of this first step of you start to think of 170 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 4: yourself as a wife and think of the demands a 171 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 4: relationship is putting on you before you actually are able 172 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 4: to recognize like what you actually want in that moment. 173 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 4: And I think that can really drive relationships into the 174 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 4: ground because you start to disconnect. 175 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,839 Speaker 3: From yourself absolutely well. 176 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 2: So one of your articles we're obviously talking about is 177 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 2: that about married couples who actually live apart, which was 178 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 2: fascinating to me. And I actually read all the comments 179 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 2: underneath the article, which was because I was like, what 180 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 2: are people saying about this? And the majority was it 181 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 2: was just really interesting. It's like a fascinating experience to 182 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 2: read the comments. But the majority of men were almost 183 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 2: frustrated with it from what I could see in the 184 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 2: comment section. And then there were a lot of women 185 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 2: who didn't necessarily think that that would work for them, 186 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 2: which is totally fine, like they were married and wanted 187 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 2: to stay that way or stay living together. And then 188 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 2: there were a lot of women who thought, Wow, that 189 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 2: really could be a situation that would really work for 190 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 2: me for the exact reason you're saying, I wouldn't be 191 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 2: spending so much time picking up socks off the ground 192 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 2: or you know, doing all that things. I would be 193 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 2: asking myself what do I want from my life? So 194 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 2: what are the overall themes that you have found doing 195 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 2: this research about men and women living separately, like in 196 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 2: individual houses or apartments or anything like that. 197 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:10,079 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the comments on that article were astounding 198 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:14,319 Speaker 4: to me to go to sort of by most liked comments. 199 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 4: It was like this very clear line where women were saying, wow, 200 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 4: this sounds great, and men were like, do you not 201 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 4: love your partner? It was kind to look at the 202 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 4: gender names against The comment was really amazing, and I 203 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 4: just felt really grateful to these people for sharing their 204 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 4: experiences and their stories. But you know, something that people 205 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 4: often ask is they say, well, if you're not living 206 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 4: with your spouse, how do you afford to live alone? 207 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 4: You know, which is really really hard in this country. 208 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 4: And I think that pop culture, because you know, I 209 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 4: study mass media, has made it difficult to see that 210 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 4: there are other options. So people in real life in 211 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 4: America buy homes with their siblings, like I know multiple 212 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 4: people who have bought an apartment with her sister, or 213 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 4: like a duplex situation where one sibling gets one floor 214 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 4: and another sibling gets another floor. You can be married 215 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 4: and you can live with a sister, or you can 216 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 4: live with a friend, or you can live with a roommate. 217 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 4: And I think especially for heterosexual women, like there is 218 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 4: a difference between living with a woman and living with 219 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 4: a man. And something that's becoming more and more prominent 220 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 4: are mom munes, which is when women post divorce move 221 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 4: in together to not save money but make it tenable to, 222 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 4: you know, pay the bills and help each other raise 223 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 4: their children. And I think that's something that I've struggled 224 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 4: a lot with in my research. Is I feel like 225 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 4: we give more weight to I love hearing from divorced women, 226 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 4: or we're getting all these great memoirs from divorced women 227 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 4: talking about how they felt marriage disadvantage them, but I 228 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 4: feel like we are not very good at centering the 229 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 4: voices of women who just opted out of that life. 230 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 4: I think that if you're divorced, you have a certain 231 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 4: kind of credibility because it's not a sour great situation 232 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 4: where like this woman got the Colden ticket and she 233 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 4: experienced it and now she can speak on the disadvantages 234 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 4: of the arrangement. Where I wish that we could hear 235 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 4: more from women who have never just said, you know, 236 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 4: this isn't really for me, Like I love my boyfriend, 237 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 4: I want to do this, but I don't want to 238 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 4: go through the whole lifespan, move in together, have kids, 239 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 4: all of that stuff. 240 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting because that has been my experience. I 241 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 2: told you I've never been married. I was engaged at 242 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 2: one point, but never got married. And it's interesting. I 243 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 2: think almost people are associating my calm nature about being 244 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 2: apart from my boyfriend now as almost like an avoidance 245 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 2: of some sort, And it's not like it's not. 246 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 3: That at all. It's actually the opposite. 247 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 2: I feel more in tune with myself and with him 248 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 2: than I ever have in a relationship, which is just 249 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 2: really interesting. But I'm feeling this confidence that I didn't 250 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 2: have before in carving out my own life path. And 251 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,559 Speaker 2: I think a lot of times, when we're supposed to 252 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 2: get married, I'm doing air quotes right now, you're so young, 253 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 2: like you don't really know, you don't know what you want, 254 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 2: you don't really understand what the obligations of marriage look 255 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 2: like or the responsibilities of that kind of relationship. And 256 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,959 Speaker 2: so I'm often seeing women, you know, ten years down 257 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 2: the line saying I love my husband, but like I 258 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 2: feel like I'm missing out on my own life. 259 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 4: There's a movie called a Nora that I'm writing on 260 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 4: right now. Yeah, I think what happens to her is 261 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 4: what happens to many women, where they kind of they 262 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 4: believe that, you know, they're going to enter into this 263 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 4: family as a first class citizen, and it's a sure thing, 264 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 4: and so they leave their work behind, they burn bridges 265 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 4: at work, they kind of leave their friends behind, they 266 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 4: leave their house behind, and then it falls apart. And 267 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 4: they've given up so many things, And it makes sense 268 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 4: that you would cling very hard onto a marriage if 269 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 4: you've given up so much for it. Sure, you know, 270 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 4: And so I think that we're having a lot of 271 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 4: these interesting cultural texts. I mean, that movie one four Oscars. 272 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 4: Sean Baker won four Oscars for that movie. The last 273 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 4: person two have won four Oscars was our last director 274 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 4: was Walt Disney. And you know, that movie has been 275 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 4: builed as a Cinderella story for our time. And I 276 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 4: think it's a really interesting movie because it kind of 277 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 4: answers the question of what happens after the fairy tale. 278 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 4: Like so many of these movies and these books end 279 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 4: with the wedding, but this asks, well, what does it 280 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 4: look like after and what does it look like on 281 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 4: a daily basis to be a wife. 282 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about the arrangement 283 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 2: if people are living apart. Because in the article you 284 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 2: referenced a couple different couples and they all said equally 285 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 2: that that was the best move for their marriage, and 286 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 2: some of them ended up moving back in together, but 287 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 2: they said the experience in and of itself was what 288 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 2: their marriage needed and it deepened their marriage. I would 289 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 2: assume that a lot of people associate living apart with 290 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 2: on the road to divorce, separation. They must not be 291 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 2: doing well. So how do we start to reframe that 292 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 2: in our mind as not necessarily a negative thing for 293 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 2: our relationship, but just as another option that if we 294 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 2: do feel the calling, is not deemed as like bad 295 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:27,359 Speaker 2: for their relationship. 296 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, what I found in talking to people 297 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 4: from that community is how the la so it's living 298 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 4: apart together is what sociologists call it. It was actually 299 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 4: a point of pride for many people. And it's really 300 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 4: interesting as a reporter to you know, I write about 301 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 4: things that are often pretty taboo, like you know, living 302 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 4: a part together. I'm writing an article on prenaps right now. 303 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 4: I had more people wanting to talk to me about 304 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 4: living a part together than anything else, and it's been 305 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 4: difficult to get people to talk about their prenups, which 306 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 4: I understand, but I think that there is this and 307 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 4: it's probably self selecting the people who want to talk 308 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 4: to me, because people who want to talk to a 309 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 4: journalists are really happy with their lives, they're really proud 310 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 4: of their relationship, they feel very secure in their relationship. 311 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 4: If they're going to talk to a journalist, and I 312 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 4: found that it was often the woman who both initiated 313 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 4: the arrangement and also wanted to speak to me. And 314 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 4: I think I spoke to twelve couples and I profiled 315 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 4: three of them, and they all were pretty different. One 316 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 4: of them, you know, was a temporary arrangement. It was 317 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 4: a woman who grew up in a very traditional family 318 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 4: and she went straight from living with her parents to 319 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 4: living to her with her husband, and she just, you know, 320 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 4: one day over Covid was like, I never got that experience, 321 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 4: and I'm really sad about it. I don't know if 322 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 4: I'm ever going to get it. And she brought it 323 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 4: up to him and he told me. He was like, 324 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 4: I would never dismiss what she said. And I was like, 325 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 4: oh my god, totally, that is so like what a 326 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 4: sign it is. I I feel so lucky for my 327 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 4: job because I often hang up the call and I'm like, 328 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 4: oh my god, like I want to cry, it's so moving. 329 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 4: And so they ended up moving apart temporarily because she 330 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 4: felt like she was falling into this wife role that 331 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 4: she didn't like, and she was losing connections with her 332 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 4: friends and with her artistic pursuits and things like that. 333 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 4: And then they realized, okay, we can live outside of 334 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,360 Speaker 4: New York and actually get more space, and so they 335 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 4: were able to get a bigger spot where she had 336 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 4: her own room and they moved back in together. But 337 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 4: another couple I spoke to it also came about during COVID, 338 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 4: where one member of the part the family was an 339 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,959 Speaker 4: extrovert and she really liked the city. And then her 340 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 4: husband actually was literally a farmer and they lived in 341 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,479 Speaker 4: a farm outside of the city, and she just started 342 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 4: kind of going store crazy over COVID, and so she 343 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 4: got a place in the city and they see each 344 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 4: other multiple times a week. And the way she funded 345 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 4: that was, even though they're in their sixties, she got 346 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 4: a job as a shuttle driver for a college nearby, 347 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 4: and so she found a way to fund it that 348 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 4: actually also kind of fed her desire for social interaction. 349 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 4: She loves being a shuttle driver, and so there are 350 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 4: many different ways people go about it. It does get 351 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 4: really complicated with couples with children, and so there are 352 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 4: many other ways those kinds of couples do it. But 353 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 4: for the couples I spoke to, it seemed like it 354 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 4: was a pretty fluid thing, like it's not assumed that 355 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 4: this will be forever, but it's not assumed that this 356 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 4: is temporary either. It's just kind of this ongoing conversation 357 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 4: they have. 358 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 2: The thing I like about the idea of it, and 359 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 2: just in hearing you even talk about those couples, is 360 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 2: there's two different people in a couple ship, right, And 361 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 2: it seems like often when people get married, we just 362 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 2: assume they almost have to become one person. I mean literally, 363 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 2: that is what is said, like you're becoming one, you know, 364 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 2: biblically or whatever when you get married. And I believe 365 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 2: that kind of does an injustice to each human in 366 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 2: those situations, because no matter if you are in line 367 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 2: with your partner or you do, you know, create a 368 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 2: situation together in this relationship, you are still an individual person, 369 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 2: and I think that often can get lost because you 370 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 2: start doing everything together. Obviously, we all have to compromise 371 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 2: a bit in relationships, and so I think the beauty 372 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 2: of it is in seeing like the extrovert versus the introvert. 373 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 2: It's not that their relationship has to end because of 374 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 2: those differences, but it's about embracing the different qualities and 375 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 2: learning how to thrive individually so that you can thrive together. 376 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 2: It's actually almost like a healthier way to be in 377 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 2: relationship to me, Yeah. 378 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 4: I totally agree, you know, and I think that we 379 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 4: know that marriage is temporary now, like your partner might 380 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 4: die and you might get divorced, right like, especially if 381 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 4: you're a woman in a heterosexual partnership, you're likely going 382 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 4: to outlive your husband. And so we act like if 383 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 4: you're living with a friend or a sister, that's temporary, 384 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 4: where if you're living with a spouse, thoughts forever and 385 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 4: that's just not There isn't data that supports that at all. 386 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 4: And so allowing for all of these many different kind 387 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 4: of lives within your marriage if it's a really long one, 388 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 4: I think is a really exciting thing. 389 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 2: Well kind of in line with the living separately if 390 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 2: that didn't feel right to a couple, Another option a 391 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 2: lot of couples are doing is just sleeping in separate rooms. 392 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,959 Speaker 2: And I actually have multiple friends who do this for 393 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 2: multiple reasons. It's like the partner snores, or one has 394 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 2: to get up super early in the morning, one has 395 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 2: a night job, one needs to be closer to the 396 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 2: you know whatever it is. But for whatever reason, it 397 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 2: worked better for them, and they've openly discussed that they 398 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 2: don't like to talk about it all the time because 399 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 2: people judge it. And I find that to be so interesting. 400 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 2: It's like, why have we put a marriage and the 401 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 2: way that it should look under this umbrella that seems 402 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 2: so specific, and we don't allow ourselves to kind of 403 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 2: craft and create what actually works for us. I e 404 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 2: sleep like I'm I'm a bad sleeper, so sometimes I 405 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 2: toss and turn, you know, and that's not always fair 406 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 2: to my partner. So what is the deal with this, 407 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 2: like sleeping in the separate bedrooms? What did you find 408 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 2: in this kind of research? 409 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 4: I feel lucky that we have a lot of really 410 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:18,719 Speaker 4: great historians at work who have shown me that this 411 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 4: idea we have of the nuclear family on all the 412 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 4: details right, like the man going and going to work, 413 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 4: the woman staying home, the couple sleeping in the same bed. 414 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 4: This is really like a nineteen fifties invention. Like back 415 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 4: in the day, nuclear families were very different. They were 416 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 4: deeply embedded and extended families in community, in their community. 417 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 4: So you know, pre war, it wasn't this idea that 418 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 4: you're this like self sustaining unit. And one of those 419 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 4: things is that couples have not always slept together in 420 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 4: the same bed. So you know, back in the day, 421 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 4: poorer families there would often be two beds. And if 422 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 4: you ask your grandparents about this, I'm sure it all 423 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 4: you know, listeners, we'll hear stories like this. But in 424 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 4: poorer families, the wife would often sleep with the girls 425 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 4: in one bed, and then the dad would sleep with 426 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 4: the boys. And then even if you look at like 427 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 4: pop culture depictions of very wealthy families back in the day, 428 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 4: many many wealthy people had separate sleeping quarters. 429 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,640 Speaker 3: I was thinking about like the king and queen and. 430 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, uk, yeah, yeah, like the crown, and you know, 431 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 4: twin beds were quite common pre nineteen fifties. So this 432 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 4: idea really came about in the fifties, and I think 433 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,400 Speaker 4: it has something to do with men coming back from war. 434 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 4: We need to make sure that to help the economy, 435 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 4: babies are created. Let's great advertising, create this norm to 436 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 4: get them in the same bed. As though that will 437 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 4: like lead to more sex, which as I spoke to 438 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 4: have a lot of sex. I think they do this 439 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 4: because they are very confident in their sex lives. But 440 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 4: the reasons people do, as you said, really range, especially 441 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 4: by age. So men once they get older often have 442 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 4: very serious snoring problems. Like there was one woman I 443 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 4: spoke to and she said, our neighbors could hear and snoring, 444 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 4: like it was a neighborhood situation, lady at all, and 445 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 4: even younger women. Though our women are more likely to 446 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 4: be woken up than men are, so that's another you know, 447 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 4: men are able to sleep more deeply than women, so 448 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,679 Speaker 4: that's another reason why women are asking to have their 449 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 4: own bedroom. But it is often as in the case 450 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 4: of living apart, I found that it was usually the 451 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 4: woman asking for this, and you know, many couples think 452 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 4: that they're the odd ones out. But then I brought 453 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 4: it up with like we had a neighborhood barbecue and 454 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 4: there was some older women there, and it was like 455 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,360 Speaker 4: I was speaking to four women in their fifties and sixties, 456 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 4: and three out of the four we're sleeping separately. 457 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 2: Right, It's just like we're not talking about it, maybe, 458 00:23:57,359 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 2: but it's happening, but it's happening. 459 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 4: And the other thing that makes me sad, I think 460 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 4: it speaks to the stigma is I was like at 461 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 4: Ikea a couple months ago and I was looking at 462 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 4: a pullout, okay, and this couple came by and they 463 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 4: were like testing out the pullout and they said, yeah, 464 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 4: we sleep separately, but it's because of his job, Like 465 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 4: it's because. 466 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 3: Like she had to justify it. 467 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 4: Yeah. I found that, like you have to often justify 468 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 4: it by work, because if not, it sends the message 469 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 4: if there's a problem in a relationship. I know a 470 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 4: woman in her forties who said that she sleeps separately 471 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 4: from her husband, and her mother just thinks it's like 472 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 4: the death knell of their marriage. 473 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,360 Speaker 2: I'm just so fascinated by the fact that we do 474 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 2: operate on these thought processes even and where if we 475 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 2: don't ever ask the question of the why, like where 476 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 2: did this come from? 477 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 3: Do I actually believe this? Like is this true for me? 478 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 2: Have I experienced something where I've seen a couple start 479 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 2: sleeping in different bedrooms and they actually. 480 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 3: Break up or it's bad for their marriage? 481 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 2: You know, I would just be curious if anyone is 482 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 2: asking those questions when they make those judgments. 483 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,479 Speaker 4: Yeah, And there's that line in Mean Girls where like 484 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 4: Gretchen says about Regina's parents, like they totally don't sleep 485 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 4: in the same bad anymore. Like there is a. 486 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 3: Stay, there is a stigma, you know, it's just so free. 487 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 2: It's just really wild to me because I find that 488 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 2: when you actually start carving your own path, you feel 489 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 2: more freedom and everyone else is really what actually feels 490 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,959 Speaker 2: more uncomfortable with it. It's just very interesting. But this 491 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 2: is why I think these kind of conversations are really important. 492 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 2: The other one you talk you've written about is stay 493 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 2: at home dads, and I think there is a massive 494 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 2: stigma on that one of You know, if the man 495 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 2: is the stay at home he must not be able 496 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 2: to find a job or be successful. And I feel 497 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 2: sorry for men in this capacity because it's just really 498 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 2: not true all the time. Of course that can be true, 499 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 2: but a lot of times and relationships that I've seen, 500 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 2: the dad is the more nurturing person. And like this 501 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 2: goes again to like our own unique wiring and how 502 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,360 Speaker 2: we all really need to be in tune with our 503 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 2: own path and what we you know, are wiring is 504 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 2: so we can build the life that we want when 505 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 2: I was reading the articles. That was kind of what 506 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 2: a lot of the stay at home dad said was, 507 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 2: you know, the ones that did it back in the 508 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 2: day really felt shame about it, and we keep it 509 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 2: pretty secret. Then it has become more of a common conversation. 510 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 2: So can you tell the listeners a little bit about 511 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 2: what you found with the dads. 512 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 4: I think the stigma is lessening like it used to be. 513 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 4: You know. I think of that movie Mister Mom, even 514 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 4: though idle mister Mom, as though, like, you can't be 515 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,640 Speaker 4: a man who is taking care of your children, right, 516 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 4: And many of the older men I spoke to said 517 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 4: that they're often mistaken for not the father, Like they 518 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 4: were like, oh, are you the grandfather? Is that your grandchild? 519 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,679 Speaker 4: Or like people were often and confused when they saw, 520 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 4: you know, a man during the day out in the 521 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 4: grocery store with his child. But I think one of 522 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 4: the biggest things I took away from that article is 523 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 4: the queer population has really opened up so many different 524 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 4: ways of arranging our lives, you know, for heterosexual people 525 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 4: and for you know, even like I think asexual Americans 526 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,399 Speaker 4: as well, because there's this idea that like, just because 527 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 4: you're having sex with someone. It doesn't necessarily mean they 528 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 4: have to be the most important person in your life. 529 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 4: Just because you're a man and you have a kid 530 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 4: doesn't mean you have to be the breadwinner. Queer couples 531 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 4: are really really changing the possibilities for everyone, And I 532 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 4: mean it was great. I spoke to a gay couple 533 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 4: probably in their forties, and one of them he just said, 534 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 4: this is always like I've always wanted to be the 535 00:27:55,320 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 4: primary caregiver, like his husband proposed to him, and you know, 536 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 4: he's like, I often embody more of the kind of 537 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 4: female role in the relationship. But then I speak to 538 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 4: heterosexual couples and they're doing these you know, mutual proposals 539 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:15,400 Speaker 4: like there. I think that queer couples are really kind 540 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 4: of showing us different ways to make relationships more equal 541 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 4: and more based in preferences rather than tradition. 542 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 2: You've mentioned the nineteen fifties, and this is where my 543 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,959 Speaker 2: head is going with that. But if you had to 544 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:31,719 Speaker 2: define now, what like the broader conversation about relationship and 545 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 2: marriage and those kind of things that are happening in 546 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 2: our culture at this moment, what do you think the 547 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 2: overall sense is. It doesn't feel like it was the 548 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 2: same as in the nineteen fifties anymore. 549 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 3: But what is it? 550 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 4: I have been talking to a lot of experts, like 551 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 4: both historians and psychologists, and the takeaways that I'm getting 552 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 4: are we put a lot more pressure on our marriages now, 553 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 4: Like there is this idea that your spouse should be 554 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,959 Speaker 4: everything to you and that it is actually you know, 555 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 4: marriage used to be. It still is an economic thing, 556 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 4: but it used to be like you would find someone 557 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 4: in your community and you would marry them, like they 558 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 4: didn't have to be I'm always thinking it like this sit, 559 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 4: what is it fine? I'm looking for a man in 560 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 4: finance six' five trust, fun blue, eyes like, yeah like 561 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 4: and The. Materialists that, MOVIE i think really goes to 562 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 4: show like this ridiculous standard that people look for in their. 563 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 4: Marriages it used to be something where you found someone 564 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 4: who is kind of suitable and you learn to love each. 565 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 4: Other AND i think now there is a lot of, 566 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 4: pressure AND i, think especially because people are marrying, later 567 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 4: they really want to make sure that they can hold 568 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 4: up their end of the, bargain which is WHY i 569 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 4: think we're seeing a, crazy crazy rise in. Prenups AND 570 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 4: i think that is part of it like people are 571 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 4: entering marriages much later in life with many more you, 572 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 4: know sometimes they've bought a, house or they created a 573 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,719 Speaker 4: business or. Whatever BUT i think women in particular are 574 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 4: leading the way and really beginning to question kind of 575 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 4: this social. Conditioning and because of the visibility of the queer, 576 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 4: POPULATION i think that women are being shown, many many more. 577 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 4: Options so it seems to be really an evolving. 578 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 2: THING i would have thought it would have been the 579 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 2: reverse to what you, said like that more pressure was 580 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 2: put on it back in the day because more people got. 581 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 2: Married it feels like you, no but that is that 582 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 2: is very. TRUE i think that what you're saying about 583 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 2: what we request or require from a, relationship the standards 584 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 2: are just. Higher AND i, know for me in, PARTICULAR 585 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 2: i have not wanted to give energy to something that 586 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 2: isn't serving my life on a bigger. 587 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 3: Scale you don't need to exact make your own. 588 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 4: Money, yeah, Friends. 589 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 2: Yeah that's totally what it. Is and then how does 590 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 2: that tie into like the stay at home dad. Piece you, 591 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 2: know what's the conversation around, that and how do we 592 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 2: wrap our minds around the variation in those kind of. 593 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 4: LIFESTYLES i think of how queer, people you, know were 594 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 4: treated in the eighties and nineties with such, stigma And i'm, 595 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 4: like when people are talking to me about the, Stigma i'm, 596 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,719 Speaker 4: like why why are we so obsessed with other people's, 597 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 4: relationships with what they're choosing to do with their, Lives 598 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 4: like what is so frightening about? This and SO i 599 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 4: get frustrated with the stigma around all these, things but 600 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 4: especially the stay at home dad, thing BECAUSE i think 601 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 4: there is this like many of the MEN i spoke 602 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 4: to found their job to actually be like, masculine like 603 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 4: fulfill some sort of masculinity that they missed when they 604 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 4: were going into an. Office, like you, know they really 605 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 4: enjoy doing the yard. Work they really Enjoy they talk 606 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 4: about how they learn to be a plumber from YouTube 607 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 4: and they're, LIKE i just saved my family thousands and 608 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 4: thousands of. Dollars AND i think we value certain kind 609 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 4: kinds of labor when it comes from, men but there are, 610 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 4: many many different ways you can add value to a, 611 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 4: household AND i think stay at home dads are really 612 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 4: showing that to, us which is. Wonderful and they're you, 613 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 4: know also making way for their wives if they're straight 614 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 4: to fulfill the parts of themselves that they've also always 615 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 4: known have been there and show their value in a 616 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 4: way that might not be so. Traditional. 617 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 2: YEAH i, mean this is WHY i want to have 618 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 2: these kind of conversations on the, podcast because when you 619 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 2: said why are we so? Scared this is WHAT i, 620 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 2: Thought because it's different and it makes us question if 621 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 2: we're doing the right. Thing like if someone else does 622 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 2: something different and they look, happy and you've done something 623 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 2: that you are just doing because you're programmed to do 624 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 2: it or you think it's the only, way the questioning 625 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 2: can make you really start to feel scared about what 626 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 2: your decisions, were you, Know like even the conversation of 627 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 2: some a different option can make a lot of, PEOPLE i, 628 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 2: think panic Almost and it's the same with the queer. 629 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 2: COMMUNITY i, MEAN i think that's always been the. Case 630 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 2: is the queer community to, me has always just challenged 631 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 2: the norm in a way that like people, go but 632 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 2: if that's, true then what's? Everything they start to question 633 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 2: everything they've ever believed their whole? 634 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 4: Life, yeah you, know, yeah like what does that mean 635 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 4: for my? Marriage If i've committed to this person AND 636 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 4: i want kids and that's All i've, wanted what if, 637 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 4: wait this person might not even want, that and that's 638 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 4: really really. 639 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 2: Scary, yeah or what If i'm hiding for? Myself Then i'm, 640 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 2: happy you, know not, happy but, YEAH i mean a 641 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 2: lot of. 642 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 4: Things, yeah there is like a site of very basic 643 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 4: psych when in one experiment that looked at homophobia in 644 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 4: relation to same sex, attraction and it found that the 645 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 4: higher level your homophobia, was the more tendencies you had 646 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 4: towards same sex. Attraction they actually like measure direction sizes with. 647 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 4: Porn they would show gay porn and measure direction sizes 648 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 4: and they and it makes, sense like you hate in 649 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 4: others what you can't accept in. 650 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 3: Yourself oh first you, know so, yeah not. 651 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 4: Happy in your marriage and you're seeing in a very 652 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 4: traditional marriage and you're seeing someone do something differently and 653 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 4: they seem. Happy and especially if you have given up a, 654 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,399 Speaker 4: lot you've put your whole life on the, line you're 655 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 4: going to cling to that norm as that that'st and 656 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,439 Speaker 4: the only option and really try to degrade the other. 657 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 4: Person and SO i do think we have learned so 658 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 4: many lessons about like the way that we treated the 659 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 4: poorer population back in the days is so so. Wrong 660 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 4: why are we stigmatizing other kinds of, relationships. 661 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 2: Yes or even other choices within. Relationships, yeah like what 662 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 2: works for you in your? Marriage like you, said why 663 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,879 Speaker 2: is that of concern to anyone else but? You that's 664 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 2: an interesting question to. Ask, WELL i loved the. RESEARCH 665 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,240 Speaker 2: i love these. Articles i'm going to put the links 666 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 2: for all of these articles in the description of this. 667 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 2: Podcast BUT i read that you're writing a book as. 668 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 3: Well, YEAH i. 669 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 4: Have to convert my dissertation into a, book So i'm look. 670 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 4: Okay my dissertation looked at depictions of off kilter domestic 671 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 4: arrangements and, MOVIES tv shows and novels from the seventies until, 672 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 4: today alongside the actual experiences lived experiences of, people and 673 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,320 Speaker 4: so many of these article the research from these articles 674 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 4: came out of that. Dissertation so it's great THAT i 675 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 4: get to kind of publish it to a wider. 676 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 2: Audience, yeah, well we'll be on the lookout for. That 677 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 2: if people are interested in keeping up with stuff like, 678 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 2: that or they want to read more about your, work 679 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:30,240 Speaker 2: where would they find You. 680 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 4: Go to My instagram which is At kelly underscore coin 681 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 4: so k e Ll y underscore, cooyne and there was 682 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 4: a link there to all of my. 683 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 3: Writing. Amazing we looks like The Kelly show today with 684 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,799 Speaker 3: both of US i heard of. It thank you so. 685 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 3: Much this was. 686 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 2: FASCINATING i love that you're putting this out in the. 687 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 2: WORLD i love that there's other options for. People it 688 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 2: doesn't have to all look the. Same you, guys go 689 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 2: keep up With. Kelly i'll put all of her. Information 690 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 2: LIKE i said in the description of this. Podcast and, Again, 691 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:01,880 Speaker 2: kelly thank you so much for being, Here. 692 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:02,919 Speaker 4: Thank you for having. 693 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 1: Me thanks for listening to The Velvet's edge podcast With Kelly, 694 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 1: henderson where we believe everyone has a little velvet in 695 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,240 Speaker 1: a little. Edge subscribe for more conversations on, life, style, 696 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: beauty and. Relationships Search Velvet's edge wherever you get your. 697 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 3: Podcasts