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Speaker 1: What do you think about Oliver Stones JFK.

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Speaker 2: It's just it's a super well directed, entertaining, big movie.

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Speaker 2: So even if you don't agree with everything, or there

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Speaker 2: are holes in the case that he's making, which there

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Speaker 2: definitely are, it's still a super fun, great movie to watch.

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Speaker 2: There's also Joe Peshi in one of his best roles.

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Speaker 2: David Ferry is like the most insane character you can't

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Speaker 2: believe out of everything that's maybe made up in the movie,

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Speaker 2: that guy and all of his quirks are real. And

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Speaker 2: then Ed Asner, John Candy, Jack Lemon, Walter Mathow. It's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: you should watch the movie just for all of that cast.

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Speaker 2: Sissy Spacek, Laurie Metcalf.

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Speaker 1: I'm George Severis, I'm Lyra Smith.

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Speaker 3: And this is United States of Kennedy, a podcast about

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Speaker 3: our cultural fascination with the Kennedy Dynasty. Every week we

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Speaker 3: go into one aspect of the Kennedy story, and today

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Speaker 3: we have our first installment of the monthly Kennedy Movie Club.

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Speaker 3: So for today we watched Oliver Stone's JFK. Oliver Stone,

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Speaker 3: of course, you might know from such movies as Wall

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Speaker 3: Street and its sequel, Wall Street, Money, Never Sleeps, The

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Speaker 3: Doors movie, Heaven and Earth, Natural Born Killers, and then

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Speaker 3: for our Purposes. He's also a real chronicler of American

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Speaker 3: power and American politics. So he's done w about George W. Bush,

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Speaker 3: he's done Nixon about Nixon, and of course he's done

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Speaker 3: JFK about not quite JFK, but more the controversies around

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Speaker 3: JFK's assassination.

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Speaker 4: Released in nineteen ninety one, it's very well known for

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Speaker 4: its real life impact. After the movie came out and

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Speaker 4: was very popular, the Assassination Records Review Board or a

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Speaker 4: ARRB publicly agreed with the film's message that quote, Americans

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Speaker 4: could not trust official public conclusions when those conclusions had

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Speaker 4: been made in secret.

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Speaker 3: So it's a fascinating movie because on the one hand,

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Speaker 3: it was roundly criticized and mocked by people that said

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Speaker 3: it was completely conspiratorial. It really like leans into the

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Speaker 3: idea that we are constantly being lied to that there's

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Speaker 3: some sort of conspiracy involving the CIA, various other people

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Speaker 3: in power that essentially some combination of the American government

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Speaker 3: and various other American institutions along with the Mafia, random

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Speaker 3: gay guys, you name it, came together and murdered JFK.

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Speaker 3: So on the one hand, it was sort of in

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Speaker 3: a sense discredited by some mainstream people in mainstream media.

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Speaker 3: But on the other hand, it was incredibly critically acclaimed.

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Speaker 3: It was nominated for Oscars, It won the or for

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Speaker 3: at least editing, I believe, and it was nominated I

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Speaker 3: think Tommy Lee Jones was nominated for Best Supporting Actor.

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Speaker 3: It is an incredibly well made movie. It's a really

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Speaker 3: incredible feat of filmmaking. So it has this mixed reputation,

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Speaker 3: and so we thought who better to discuss it with

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Speaker 3: than Amy Nicholson, the Los Angeles Times film critic and

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Speaker 3: co host of the film podcast Unspoiled.

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Speaker 1: Hi, Amy, thanks for being here. Hello, Hi, great to

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Speaker 1: be here.

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Speaker 4: We are discussing Oliver Stones JFK today.

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Speaker 1: Had you seen it before?

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Speaker 5: I was one of those creepy kids with a bunch

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Speaker 5: of books on the JFK assassination that I would just

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Speaker 5: flip through and look at all the pictures and be

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Speaker 5: like WHOA without really understanding much about who JFK was

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Speaker 5: and what he represented in what he meant and pretty

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Speaker 5: much anything besides like glamor and glitz. So I had

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Speaker 5: watched jfk Oh when I was a child and not

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Speaker 5: really understood anything except you know, back into the left,

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Speaker 5: back into the left, yack into the left.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: After watching the movie and then having like adult sized

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Speaker 4: questions kind of like ruined the conspiracy of my youth.

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Speaker 4: It really is like had the opposite effect on me

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Speaker 4: that Oliver Stone intended.

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Speaker 1: I sort of agree.

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Speaker 3: I really wish I had watched it as a teen

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Speaker 3: like I had. I have such nostalgia for watching similar

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Speaker 3: things and being like mind blown, like they're lying to

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Speaker 3: us man, and I just like really wish I had

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Speaker 3: watched this when I was younger and more impressionable.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I don't am I the only person here

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Speaker 5: who was a weekly world news teenager who like read

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Speaker 5: tabloids and just thought they were too and grew up

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Speaker 5: being like, yeah, this all makes sense.

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Speaker 4: Well, I grew up thinking that literally every single person

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Speaker 4: on earth knew for a fact that this was a conspiracy,

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Speaker 4: and that conspiracy wasn't even the right word to use,

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Speaker 4: like this is just a fact Oswald didn't kill Kennedy

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Speaker 4: or was not the only one who shot at Kennedy.

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Speaker 4: That's what I grew up thinking. And apparently I think

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Speaker 4: it's less than thirty percent or something of Americans today

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Speaker 4: would disagree with that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's tracks.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but the majority of people are like, yeah, the

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Speaker 4: CIA kill JFK, what are you talking about CIA or

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Speaker 4: the MOB or you know, like it's like a known

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Speaker 4: fact is the way it's treated.

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Speaker 5: So we're living in Oliver Stones America. We are all

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Speaker 5: post all of our Stone children.

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Speaker 1: I know.

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Speaker 3: I think, well, I think there's a sort of It's

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Speaker 3: tough because on the one hand, there are things we

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Speaker 3: are not being told. On the other hand, I don't

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Speaker 3: think this specific conspiracy that is being laid out in

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Speaker 3: this movie is the correct one from beginning the end.

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Speaker 1: But isn't it convincing?

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Speaker 5: It's so convincing in the moment, right, I should say

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Speaker 5: maybe my strength and weakness as a folk critic because

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Speaker 5: I could be incredibly susceptible, Like my heart is very open.

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Speaker 1: It's a things.

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Speaker 5: So I saw a documentary a few years ago that

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Speaker 5: convinced me that Marilyn Monroe was murdered because she was

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Speaker 5: having an affair with RFK, and I was like, okay,

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Speaker 5: that all tracks, So yeah, I have to do a

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Speaker 5: lot of research when I finished watching something to try

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Speaker 5: to put my feedback on the ground, Well, I am.

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Speaker 1: The same one.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's also the issue with conspiracy culture is

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Speaker 3: like it stems from a very correct impulse, which is

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Speaker 3: that at any given time we are not being told

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Speaker 3: like one hundred percent the truth, which is of course

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Speaker 3: right in any kind of like globalized world that is,

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Speaker 3: you know, where the systems of information are controlled by

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Speaker 3: various powerful people.

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Speaker 1: I know, I already sound like.

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Speaker 3: A conspiracy theorist, but then of course you're right, that

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Speaker 3: is sort of just like an obvious fact. And then

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Speaker 3: of course people let their imaginations run wild, and if

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Speaker 3: you're sort of like unmoored from wanting to remain within

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Speaker 3: like a respectable circle of discourse, then suddenly you just

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Speaker 3: like go all the way off and suddenly it's you know,

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Speaker 3: Tommy Lee Jones in a sort of like fabulous wig.

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Speaker 1: I So I.

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Speaker 4: Watched it twice this weekend, and the first time I

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Speaker 4: was and I believed it all, or at least I

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Speaker 4: was like, yes, okay, sure, all of the timelines that

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Speaker 4: they present, I'm like, yeah, you're right, he couldn't do it.

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Speaker 4: And I was just really fully on board to believe

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Speaker 4: even everything. You know, mister X said, And then I

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Speaker 4: watched it again while tracking along, I found this guy, which,

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Speaker 4: by the way, he's just some guy. This is what's

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Speaker 4: so hard about trying to find the truth online is

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Speaker 4: there's this man who has a scene by scene fact

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Speaker 4: check website of the movie. But it's Geo cities and

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Speaker 4: he doesn't really explain who he is or you know,

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Speaker 4: it's but it looks incredibly well researched. So then I

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Speaker 4: watched it again while looking for answers to my questions.

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Speaker 3: I actually watched it once and I had to do

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Speaker 3: it in two parts. I enjoyed it for the record,

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Speaker 3: but I had to do it in two parts because

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Speaker 3: it's so the editing is so chaotic, and it really

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Speaker 3: is so dense. I mean, I had to watch it

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Speaker 3: with subtitles same. I was really, you know, struggling. So

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Speaker 3: the fact that you watched it twice is very impressive.

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Speaker 3: But what so then the second time?

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Speaker 1: What happened?

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Speaker 4: The second time I was following along with a GeoCities fact.

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Speaker 1: Check, okay of jan and what did you learn?

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Speaker 5: So?

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Speaker 1: I learned that even things that on the first watch,

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Speaker 1: I thought, well, there's no way that they would be

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Speaker 1: lying about that. Why would they fictionalize that isn't that

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Speaker 1: a date and time?

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Speaker 5: Like?

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Speaker 4: Why would that be wrong? They're all wrong. Almost everything

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Speaker 4: is completely fictionalized. And it's very hard for me to

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Speaker 4: say that. I don't want it to be true, but

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Speaker 4: it is true.

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Speaker 5: But are you saying that your experience of watching this

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Speaker 5: movie while listening to a person telling you why it's

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Speaker 5: wrong at every single minute, but also knowing that this

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Speaker 5: person is a stranger from GeoCities dot com means you

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Speaker 5: felt like you were living in a mystery wrapped inside

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Speaker 5: a riddle wrapped inside and enigma occur that I did

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Speaker 5: not realize came from this movie.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I know, I truly because also, George, Yes, it

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Speaker 4: took me an entire day to watch it the first

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Speaker 4: time I watched it in multiple parts.

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Speaker 1: I had to eat, I had to live. It's three

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Speaker 1: and a half hours long.

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Speaker 3: I also, it really made me wish I could have

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Speaker 3: seen it in the theater because and I I really

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Speaker 3: did a good job of putting my phone in another room.

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Speaker 3: I was paying full attention, and yet still even the

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Speaker 3: fact of being able to even look at other things

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Speaker 3: was distracting enough where I had to rewind ten seconds

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Speaker 3: constantly because I didn't catch some line or another.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean there's something in the dizzying barrage of dates, numbers,

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Speaker 5: and your own suspicions trying to parry and fend them

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Speaker 5: off while you're taking them all in at the same

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Speaker 5: time that really, in a way makes this movie.

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Speaker 1: And we can say a lot of it is fiction.

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Speaker 1: We can say much of it is fiction.

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Speaker 5: The fiction of it, in some crazy way feels like

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Speaker 5: it gets closer to the truth of what it is

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Speaker 5: like just living in an information barrage and not being

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Speaker 5: sure if we should ever trust anything. Really, even if

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Speaker 5: you don't trust this movie, are we to trust anything?

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Speaker 5: Is the queasy C sixth sense I got enduring this movie.

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Speaker 1: Pleasurably enjoying this movie. I mean, this is the thing.

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Speaker 4: It's separating the art from the artist, but it's separating

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Speaker 4: like the movie from the facts.

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Speaker 1: As a movie, it very much accomplishes its goal.

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Speaker 3: And also, I think, even exactly as you were saying, Amy,

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Speaker 3: it actually, whether consciously or not, replicates kind of the

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Speaker 3: feeling of manically going down a conspiratorial rabbit hole, whether

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Speaker 3: or not the rabbit hole you're going down is true

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Speaker 3: or not, it has this manic energy, and I think

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Speaker 3: so much of it has to do with the editing,

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Speaker 3: Like which is the in fact the one or I

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Speaker 3: think one of two oscars at one is editing. I

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Speaker 3: was wondering if you have any you know, as an

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Speaker 3: actual expert, like, how do you feel technically? It accomplished

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Speaker 3: that general vibe where for three hours you just feel

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Speaker 3: like you are on an intellectual roller coaster.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you feel like you're on a ride.

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Speaker 5: Right, you feel like you're on I don't know, the

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Speaker 5: tea cups at Disneyland getting spun and spar and spun around,

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Speaker 5: and the movie goes faster and faster, and then about

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Speaker 5: two thirds of the way through, you have Kevin Costner

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Speaker 5: delivering a recap to his own team. All right, here's

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Speaker 5: what's going on. You suddenly realize he's broken them. The

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Speaker 5: machine has broken down, and everybody's just staring at him,

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Speaker 5: like I can't handle this anymore. And I appreciate that

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Speaker 5: that Oliver Stone in the chaos of this movie builds

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Speaker 5: in moments where you realize, I understand, I'm taking this

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Speaker 5: a little bit too much. I've lost the jury when

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Speaker 5: I say this. I've lost my own team when I

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Speaker 5: say this, And yet don't we all just feel caught up?

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Speaker 1: I mean, Oliver Soona.

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Speaker 5: Says something really interesting, which is, once you start accepting

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Speaker 5: that maybe you've been lied to about anything in history,

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Speaker 5: then you start wondering if anything.

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Speaker 1: In history is true.

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Speaker 5: That he says of himself, you know, he grew up

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Speaker 5: in the forties and fifties, and that he would read

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Speaker 5: books on American history about Washington and Columbus in the

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Speaker 5: Civil War, and then as soon as he experienced history

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Speaker 5: and the shakiness of it, he began to doubt everything,

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Speaker 5: which I feel like is an idea that I didn't

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Speaker 5: understand when I was a child in the nineties who

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Speaker 5: believed most things.

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Speaker 1: I was taught.

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Speaker 5: But it's an understanding I definitely have now when we're

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Speaker 5: fighting over what history even gets taught period.

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Speaker 4: I mean, my moment for that was when I, as

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Speaker 4: a super fan of Pocahontas, the animated film, watched a

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Speaker 4: History Channel special on the true story of Pocahontas and

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Speaker 4: found out that she was just a child who is

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Speaker 4: kidnapped and abused, and not like a gorgeous woman like

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Speaker 4: living independently.

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Speaker 3: Are you thinking Disney's Pocahontas is not actually correct, I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: That was the moment that I learned never to trust again.

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Speaker 3: We should at some point give, you know, attempt to

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Speaker 3: give a synopsis of the movie. But while we're on

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Speaker 3: the topic of like American mythologies that we you know,

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Speaker 3: sour on and we realize our lives and everything, something

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Speaker 3: that is fascinating to me is that he's almost replacing

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Speaker 3: one mythology with another. There is a such a romantization

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Speaker 3: of JFK in this movie that actually feels weirdly, if

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Speaker 3: not conservative, then then almost more optimistic than what he's

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Speaker 3: trying to debunk. Does that make sense? I mean this

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Speaker 3: idea that the conspiracy centers around the idea that JFK

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Speaker 3: is such a pacifist and such a liberatory figure that

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Speaker 3: all the powerful forces in America had to band together

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Speaker 3: to eliminate him. I just don't necessarily think JFK was

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Speaker 3: some like left wing, you know, figure that was going

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Speaker 3: to usher in a completely different decade of prosperity or something.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's one of the big things from mister

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Speaker 4: x Donald Sutherland's incredible performance, by the way, like truly,

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Speaker 4: truly I watched it a few times because I just

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Speaker 4: could not believe how he just shows up and gives

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Speaker 4: this incredibly wordy dates and locations monologue and it all

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Speaker 4: gets through and he's so.

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Speaker 3: Also is especially impactful because the rest of it is

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Speaker 3: so choppy. I'm not saying that in a negative way,

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Speaker 3: like it's intentionally just so choppy. And it's like fifteen

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Speaker 3: million frames per second. And then the Donald Sutherland part

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Speaker 3: is almost like the first time it slows down and

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Speaker 3: you hear someone talking and delivering a long monologue where

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Speaker 3: the camera isn't like shaking in front of their face,

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Speaker 3: and also cutting to like historical footage and also cutting

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Speaker 3: to Jackie in the car, and so there's it's really

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Speaker 3: framed in this way to give it even more gravitas

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Speaker 3: and to be like, this is the real truth, right.

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Speaker 5: And he has that line in that whole area where

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Speaker 5: he says, Hey, this feeling that you're having of being

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Speaker 5: barraged by all of this facts, all of these names.

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Speaker 5: The thing that this movie is doing, the way that

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Speaker 5: the people in the country felt even at this moment,

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Speaker 5: is to keep you from asking the extra question, which

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Speaker 5: is why, yeah, we have so much information thrown at

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Speaker 5: us that just begins to feel like a shell game,

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Speaker 5: like a parlor game. But I also think that what

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Speaker 5: he's getting at here is, you know, Kennedy, I always say,

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Speaker 5: was like the first television president, right, the first person

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Speaker 5: who understood the power of the visual medium and blah

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Speaker 5: blah blah and the Checkers speech. And he was handsome

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Speaker 5: and Nixon was sweaty, you know, the whole thing. And

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Speaker 5: because we've all grown up in like a post JFK America,

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Speaker 5: I think it's really natural for us to see our

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Speaker 5: presidents as TV characters, you know, more than even like

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Speaker 5: political figures. But we're getting the natural outgrowth of that.

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Speaker 5: I was literally born under like a movie actor president,

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Speaker 5: and we don't need to talk about the current people.

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Speaker 5: But like, because of that, I think I have a

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Speaker 5: way of seeing JFK not as a person, but as

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Speaker 5: a character, you know, Like I grew up thinking of

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Speaker 5: JFK as Camelot, and then I heard that JFK was

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Speaker 5: just like a cheating adulterer who slept around and was

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Speaker 5: kind of ineffectual. And then there's this JFK who was

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Speaker 5: a totally different JFK to me, like a JFK who

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Speaker 5: actually could have accomplished great.

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Speaker 1: Practical things and kept us out of a war.

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Speaker 5: And it was just it's like three characters, you know,

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Speaker 5: the way that you were saying that you feel as

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Speaker 5: though we have giant argument to fighting at each other.

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Speaker 5: This movie feels like a mech suit of different JFK's

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Speaker 5: battling for control of the legacy.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly.

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Speaker 3: That's actually something that keeps coming up when we do

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Speaker 3: research into other elements of the Kennedy story is the

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Speaker 3: Kennedys as people are almost secondary to the Kennedys as symbols.

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Speaker 3: It's just like there's sort of a Rshac test for

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Speaker 3: how you feel about, you know, how you feel about

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Speaker 3: twentieth century American politics, how you feel about liberalism, how

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Speaker 3: you feel about Catholicism, how you feel about you know,

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Speaker 3: the media ecosystem and the publicity ecosystem, and power and

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Speaker 3: the American dream. And it's like, I think, the average

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Speaker 3: despite the fact that JFK is one of the most

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Speaker 3: recognizable historical figures in America, the average person could not

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Speaker 3: really tell you what his legacy is as a president.

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Speaker 1: Really. I mean, I guess.

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Speaker 3: People could think of like the Bay of Pigs and

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Speaker 3: the assassination, but like could the average person that has

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Speaker 3: really strong opinions about Reagan or about George W. Bush,

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Speaker 3: sure about Trump, like actually produced what was the what

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Speaker 3: the Kennedy doctrine was No, thanks thanks, Lara.

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Speaker 4: But I think also because specifically in this the Sutherland

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Speaker 4: monologue where and this is like a common piece of

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Speaker 4: this type of JFK love and the conspiracy is that

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Speaker 4: they often cite that he was going.

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Speaker 1: To sign.

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Speaker 4: And that he was he was going to sign this,

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Speaker 4: or he was not going to sign it, and by

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Speaker 4: not signing it, they were going to get troops out

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Speaker 4: of Vietnam immediately, and they were not going.

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Speaker 1: To have a war.

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Speaker 4: And then because he died, Johnson signed it gave them

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Speaker 4: their war. And if not for this assassination, like everything

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Speaker 4: would have been different.

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Speaker 1: And we would have no one would have died in

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Speaker 1: Vietnam and we would have had civil rights immediately.

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Speaker 4: Like it's just like a total reimagining because the fact

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Speaker 4: is that he was signing it. He had a draft

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Speaker 4: made up two days before Dallas. So this movie is

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Speaker 4: about the only murder case that was brought to trial

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Speaker 4: concerning JFK's assassination, and it is the story of the

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Speaker 4: New Orleans DA Jim Garrison collecting information, finding witnesses, and

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Speaker 4: basically in real life we know that he would come

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Speaker 4: up with a story and then try to find people

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Speaker 4: to support that story. But in JFK, it's that he

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Speaker 4: is uncovering the conspiracy to kill Kennedy and frame Oswald.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he's uncovering the conspiracy that some combination of the

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Speaker 3: CIA slash American Intelligence Apparatus and various other people in

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Speaker 3: power and the mafia and various people involved in Cuba

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Speaker 3: came together to assassinate JFK because he was going to

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Speaker 3: be basically too progressive of a president.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he was going to stop the war and he was.

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Speaker 3: Not hard enough on communism and so and as the

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Speaker 3: New Orleans DA, Kevin Costner is the only person that is,

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Speaker 3: you know, seeking out the truth. Everyone is against him.

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Speaker 3: He's dealing with all these people in great positions of

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Speaker 3: power that want to discredit him. He in fact does

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Speaker 3: a solid job of proving that his theory is correct,

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Speaker 3: and despite that, he loses a trial. And you know,

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Speaker 3: the movie ends with this like plea that it's the

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Speaker 3: next generations that are going to keep seeking the truth.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: It he is seen as almost this no he right,

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Speaker 5: like he enters the courtroom with this case against a

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Speaker 5: figure it named clay Bertram slash Clay Shaw, who's played

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Speaker 5: by Tommy Lee Jones, who he knows he doesn't have

379
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Speaker 5: that strong of an actual case specifically about him, you know.

380
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Speaker 5: But it's more like he just wants to get this

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Speaker 5: entire story on the record because he's really imagining himself

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Speaker 5: as like a figure in the court of public opinion.

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Speaker 5: He wants to get this all down. He wants to

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Speaker 5: get it in testimony. He wants people to be aware

385
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Speaker 5: of this. He wants the zup root of footage to

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Speaker 5: be out there so that even if his generation won't actually,

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Speaker 5: you know, stand for the principles that he thinks America

388
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Speaker 5: has has lost in terms of trusting that our government

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Speaker 5: won't lie to us, may maybe our future will live

390
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Speaker 5: in a much clearer news environment, which clearly did not

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Speaker 5: come to pass, even though his idea of the court

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Speaker 5: of public opinion definitely did.

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Speaker 1: Mm hm. I mean that is the even on.

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Speaker 4: The first viewing where I was totally sold, if I'm

395
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Speaker 4: being honest, when we get to the verdict and I

396
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Speaker 4: think we're supposed to be shocked and appalled and heart

397
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Speaker 4: broken that he's found not guilty, but even within the movie,

398
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Speaker 4: you're like, well, what are you proving him being guilty

399
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Speaker 4: of in court? You know, he really just has like

400
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Speaker 4: second hand stories. He doesn't have evidence, like tying clay Shaw.

401
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Speaker 5: To it, right, he's basically tugging on that lie, right,

402
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,120
Speaker 5: like you to believe you've been lied about one thing,

403
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Speaker 5: maybe later you'll believe you're lied to about the rest

404
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Speaker 5: of it.

405
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Speaker 4: The other part of the real story is that Garrison

406
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Speaker 4: didn't have like a great reputation in the end for

407
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Speaker 4: being of sane mind.

408
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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't like to say that, but just

409
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Speaker 1: that he had.

410
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Speaker 4: There's like quotes of him saying that this was a

411
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Speaker 4: sexual thrill kill and he was just kind of like

412
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Speaker 4: throwing together anybody that he could find in New Orleans

413
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Speaker 4: that was part of any kind of underbelly.

414
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Speaker 3: And yeah, I mean it's also, of course, when the

415
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Speaker 3: narrative is that everyone is out to get him and

416
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Speaker 3: everyone is out to discredit him. When that is the narrative,

417
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Speaker 3: than anything you hear against him almost like fits into that.

418
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Speaker 3: And then it makes you, if you're on his side,

419
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:09,880
Speaker 3: let's say, it makes you even more conspiratorial because you're

420
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Speaker 3: like Oh, look, the media is in on it, and

421
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,240
Speaker 3: the newspapers are in on it, and Shaw is in

422
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:19,399
Speaker 3: fact controlling the public narrative, and so which is in

423
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Speaker 3: fact like one of the elements of conspiratorial thinking is

424
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 3: how self perpetuating. It is like, once you consider yourself

425
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Speaker 3: to be part of a community that is truth seeking

426
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 3: against all odds, than anything that is being set against

427
00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 3: you is like further proof that you are correct and

428
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Speaker 3: that you are getting closer to the truth. I want

429
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Speaker 3: to sort of talk a little bit amy about the

430
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Speaker 3: way this was received at the time and where it

431
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 3: fits into Oliver Stone's filmography and Oliver Stones specifically like

432
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Speaker 3: work as a chronicler of American power and corruption. It

433
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Speaker 3: feels like a movie like this if it were released now,

434
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Speaker 3: it would be seen as so you know, quote unquote irresponsible,

435
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 3: like with the current conspiracy culture that exists at the time.

436
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,919
Speaker 3: There were definitely detractors, but it was, you know, a

437
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 3: critical hit. It was nominated for Oscars. What would you say?

438
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Speaker 3: The immediate response was.

439
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 5: Well, the Jack Villinti, who ran the NBA, the most

440
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 5: measured Picture Association of America. He likened it to Lenny

441
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,640
Speaker 5: Riefenstahl's triumph of the Will. So there was also some

442
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 5: pretty strong detractors who were going after the film very,

443
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 5: very harshly.

444
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: You know, there were a lot of people who were alive.

445
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 5: Of course, to witness this whole trial go down, and

446
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 5: they came into the movie with very strong opinions about

447
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 5: Garrison the way that I'm sure years from now we're

448
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 5: going to have really strong opinions if somebody ever does

449
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 5: a movie about, you know, James Comey. And so a

450
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 5: lot of the immediate reaction was like, you're leaving out

451
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 5: everything about this guy, you know. In Stone's rebuttals to

452
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 5: that was like, well, if I really made this a

453
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 5: movie about Jim Garrison and all of his flaws, then

454
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 5: the film becomes a biography, it becomes smaller, and I

455
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 5: think that that takes the focus off of the larger issue.

456
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 5: But then you also have to say, you're casting Kevin

457
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 5: Costner at one of the peaks of his career, you know,

458
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,919
Speaker 5: a pre water World Kevin Costner, when everybody was in

459
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 5: love with him, including my mother, and you're gonna think, yeah, Garrison,

460
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 5: totally reasonable guy, perhaps the greatest living American, you know.

461
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 5: And so it's interesting, like I find movies like this

462
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 5: that challenge the audience honestly by asking us to be

463
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 5: aware that every movie we ever go see is at

464
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 5: some point a film with an agenda, is at some

465
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 5: point not going to tell the truth. That fiction actually

466
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 5: can never recreate the truth exactly, it's impossible. There's a

467
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 5: really fantastic documentary by Noam Chomsky with Michelle gondikelt Is

468
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 5: The Man who is Tall Happy that's about almost this

469
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 5: like paradox of absolute zero. You can never make a

470
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 5: fictional recreation of anything that is the truth. And yet

471
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 5: we live in a world where it always gets shaky

472
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 5: and people are obligated to say, like, depiction is not endorsement.

473
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 5: And I think this is a film that, to me,

474
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,479
Speaker 5: regardless of what you feel about JFK in the present,

475
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 5: regardless of how much people even think about JFK, speaks

476
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 5: to our common crisis that we're all in right now

477
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 5: about not knowing what to believe. And it's almost like

478
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 5: a vaccine or an inoculation, right Like, can you watch

479
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,880
Speaker 5: this movie trusting that it's okay that it has an agenda?

480
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 4: You know?

481
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 1: Because I think, honestly every film should have an agenda.

482
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 1: Why are you even bother making it.

483
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 5: You know, I want minecraft to have an agenda, even

484
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 5: if that agenda is just like make kids really excited

485
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 5: and throw popcorn around.

486
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, completely, And I think that is I mean,

487
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 3: I think it's also about almost respecting your audience in

488
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 3: that way, like I think you can trust that they

489
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 3: can draw the different conclusions than you do, but still

490
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 3: appreciate the way you told the story and the way

491
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 3: you put forth an argument.

492
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 5: Exactly like Oliver Stone thought that if he could get

493
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 5: free things across, he would be content, and those three

494
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 5: things are not pleased by everything in this conspiracy. But

495
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 5: it's a I want to prove that Oswald was actually

496
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 5: anti communist or at least hung around with anti communist people.

497
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 5: B I want you guys to know that there were

498
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 5: doctors being getting bossed around by military officers in the autopsy.

499
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 5: That that is a fact, and I just need that

500
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 5: on the record. And see really putting the zapruder footage

501
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 5: on a big screen, because isn't that impactful? Like I

502
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,120
Speaker 5: found that really astonishing. You know, when JFKA get shot

503
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 5: at the beginning, it's represented by a flock of birds.

504
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,199
Speaker 5: Two hours and forty five minutes in the movie, you

505
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 5: see his actual death, and after talking about it for

506
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 5: minutes and minutes and minutes and minutes, it's such a

507
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 5: breakneck speed. For some reason, watching it then hit me

508
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 5: harder than I think it's ever hit me.

509
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, I had very similar experience where it felt like

510
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 4: the most gruesome thing I've seen. And I've seen it before,

511
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,679
Speaker 4: but it really is hard to watch and it is

512
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 4: a shock every time, and then especially the way they

513
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 4: do it with like repeating it over and over again.

514
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,919
Speaker 4: And I always think about either Jackie OH said the

515
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 4: or somebody said it after speaking to Jackie O, or

516
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 4: describing what she does in the zeppid Or film is

517
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 4: that she jumps to the back and reaches for parts

518
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 4: of JFK's head.

519
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: She reaches to get them and collect them.

520
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 4: It's such an human response that's not based in logic,

521
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 4: and so like watching that over and over again really

522
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 4: struck me.

523
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 5: I love that description of it because I think that's

524
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 5: something that's really easy to miss when we look back

525
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 5: at history, that things don't always add up because we're

526
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 5: flailing and figuring out the best time. I mean, I

527
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 5: could just imagine being in that moment and thinking like,

528
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 5: let me grab for my husband's brains.

529
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,919
Speaker 1: Maybe I can fix this mm.

530
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting that, you know, compared to other biopic

531
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 3: like depictions of the Kennedy's that go to great lengths

532
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 3: to have these long speeches or you know, show Jackie

533
00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 3: with the blood on her dress and all this stuff,

534
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 3: like the impact of just that tiny moment being played

535
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 3: over and over again is actually can be so much

536
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 3: more meaningful than you know, an entire two hour movie

537
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 3: that's like about her staring into the distance and mourning

538
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 3: her her husband.

539
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I found it so touching. As soon as

540
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 5: the assassination happens, you see Americans in this movie running

541
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 5: to a bar where they know that there's a TV

542
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 5: to sit together. Like the idea of I feel like

543
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 5: right now, I spent a lot of time witnessing what

544
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 5: feels like epic tragedy is alone on my couch, on

545
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 5: my cell phone, and the idea that you could sit

546
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 5: with your community, even if some of your community is

547
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 5: clapping because they're happy JFK Is dead, which wow, you

548
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 5: know it really it really affected me.

549
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: It was interesting how in that scene there was actually

550
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: relative civility in the bar, Like in my mind when

551
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: I imagine how people of different political views react to

552
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, a Trump executive order or something. I

553
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: don't imagine people like yelling at the TV, but then

554
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: ultimately remaining civil and consuming it communally. There was something

555
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: about which is of course.

556
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 3: The difference between consuming information remotely and consuming it physically

557
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 3: together in the same space, Like you have no choice

558
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 3: but to exist communally with your fellow person, and it

559
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 3: would it takes much more like courage or something to

560
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 3: actually start like yelling or fighting in real life. I

561
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 3: wanted to go back to just in terms of your

562
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 3: relationship with Oliver Stone, like how what do you think

563
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 3: of him as a filmmaker and how do you think

564
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 3: this fits into his filmography?

565
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 4: Yeah?

566
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 5: I think he's vital, passionate and frustrating. I have a

567
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 5: soft spot in my heart for filmmakers who stirs it up.

568
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: Can I say stirshit up on this? Yes? Yeah?

569
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 5: Okay, because how else are you going to describe Oliver Stone?

570
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 5: That's what he does. This is a guy who went

571
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 5: to war when he was young, grew up or grew

572
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 5: cynical super fast, and then wanted to translate his experience

573
00:29:59,280 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 5: to the screen.

574
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: A ton of powerful movies.

575
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 5: I think Born on the fourth of July, a movie

576
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 5: he made right before this with Tom Cruise, is one

577
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 5: of the better things anybody's ever made about war, and

578
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 5: it's also one of the better Tom Cuse performances. So

579
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 5: I don't know what I think about Oliver Stone as

580
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 5: a human being, because I try to really keep that

581
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 5: out of the movie themselves.

582
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: But I think that people like.

583
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 5: Him who use the power of cinema to put a

584
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 5: hot laser beam on things they want us to be

585
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 5: talking about. I love them even when they make people mad,

586
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 5: you know, even when they make me mad. And so this,

587
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 5: to me feels like one of the ultimate Oliver Stone movies.

588
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 5: Although I have to say, on a tiny side note,

589
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 5: when he made The Doors, my boyfriend was a gigantic

590
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 5: Doors fan, went to go see it as a kid

591
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 5: and was so furious he went outside and like lit

592
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 5: a cassette tape on fire and started screaming.

593
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: So that's just the effect Oliver Stone has on people.

594
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 4: Well, my personal experience with this one is that I

595
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 4: am from Tennessee and some of the accents are phenomenal,

596
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 4: and I feel like a lot of the cast, like

597
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 4: you know, a lot of the cast already has accents

598
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 4: or Southern accents, and it's like Sissy's Basic and Tommy

599
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 4: Lee Jones and they're making these like kind of like

600
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 4: subtle adjustments to fit the region.

601
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: And I really love that.

602
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 4: And I actually find that Costner's accent is like very reserved,

603
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 4: and I did really like it. But I hate to

604
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 4: say it, but like John Candy's accent is really rough.

605
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: He's from Canada. You can't you can't, you know, blame him.

606
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 4: Also, I read that he was sweating profusely the entire

607
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 4: time they were filming because he was so nervous to

608
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 4: be in a dramatic film, and that that was just

609
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 4: real sweat.

610
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: Oh that's so funny.

611
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 3: I mean everything about it seems so intentional, to be honest,

612
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 3: even the accent being insane.

613
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: I thought it just adds to the character. Well, that's

614
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: the thing.

615
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 4: Also, is it like when Joe Peshi first shows up

616
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 4: and you're like, is that a bad wig?

617
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: On the productions?

618
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 4: I mean the eyebrows, yeah, But then towards the end

619
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 4: you realize, like, no, it's a bad wig because he

620
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 4: wore a bad wig and now we're going to show

621
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 4: you how bad it is. Like he starts tearing, like

622
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 4: pulling it and moving it around while he's like having

623
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 4: his episode. And here's the thing, though, the same way

624
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 4: that there's the idealized JFK memory being presented, I feel

625
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 4: like there's like a lot of southernisms that are thrown in.

626
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 4: Some of them I've never heard of before in my life,

627
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 4: and I don't know if Oliver Stone got them from

628
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 4: anyone that he knows or what, but it's like they're

629
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 4: really trying to remind you that these are simple Southern,

630
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 4: good Americans and they don't take no crap from no

631
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 4: But I wrote down some of them that I really liked.

632
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 4: But I think my favorite one that I never heard

633
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 4: before is her reputation's lower than crocodile piss, which I.

634
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: Will be like using for the rest of my life.

635
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: But the one that like, really.

636
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 4: The one that really took me out of it, though,

637
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 4: is that when they're talking about the magic bullet, and

638
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 4: he says theoretical physicists can also prove that an elephant

639
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 4: can hang off a cliff with its tail tattoo a daisy.

640
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 3: I actually think the sort of florid nature of the

641
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,959
Speaker 3: Southern people as imagined by as imagined by Oliver Stone,

642
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 3: kind of adds to the weirdly fictionalized, almost like dreamscape vibe.

643
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 1: Of the movie.

644
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 3: Like when you're in a courtroom and someone is speaking

645
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 3: like that and they're saying, theoretical physicists can prove that

646
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 3: an elephant can hang off a cliff with its tail

647
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 3: tied to a daisy. You're sort of like, Okay, we're

648
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 3: in this kind of like suspended world, and I don't

649
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 3: have to fully believe this conspiracy theory to engage with it,

650
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 3: Like I actually think it sort of helps put you

651
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 3: in a you know, in a reality that's halfway between

652
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 3: truth and fiction.

653
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 5: Right, we are all Joe Peshy's wig, feeling like we're

654
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 5: sliding off of it, exactly as a girl who grew

655
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 5: up in Texas. If we want to talk about presidents

656
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 5: creating characters or politicians creating characters, do not get me

657
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 5: started on George W. Bush in his Texas accent, or

658
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 5: most people who moved to Texas and suddenly reinvent themselves

659
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 5: as a real American.

660
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Yeah.

661
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 4: And then the other thing that I kept noticing, I

662
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 4: didn't know if anybody else had seen it. Pes she

663
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 4: keeps playing with people's nipples and it's like a character choice.

664
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, actually, you know, Pesche playing with everyone's nipples is

665
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 3: a great segue into the the depiction of like the

666
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 3: homosexual underground then.

667
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: Underbelly, Yes, Kevin Bacon, Yes, that.

668
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 3: Is depicted in this film, which I know I'm supposed

669
00:34:58,000 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 3: to be offended by, but I have to say I've

670
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 3: found it to be so fun and like the scenes

671
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 3: of them, you know, having the sort of like weird

672
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 3: sex parties where one of them is covered head to

673
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 3: toe in gold paint and the other.

674
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: One is dressed like what was it. I'm trying to think.

675
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 3: Thing.

676
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, and they've clearly got a lot of time

677
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 5: on their hands to put on that gold paint and

678
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,919
Speaker 5: then wash it off. That gold paint. They clearly could

679
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 5: be planning a conspiracy.

680
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 4: I loved Tommy Lee Jones in this movie, and I

681
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,879
Speaker 4: wanted to hang out with them. The character, but he's

682
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 4: definitely in that cinematic gay villain. I don't know if

683
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 4: it starts with Peter Lorie, but he's definitely doing like

684
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 4: a kind of Maltese falcon Peter Lori.

685
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,800
Speaker 3: It's a very you know, Javier Bardem in that Bond

686
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 3: movie where he's very clearly like gay coded. Although I

687
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 3: will say one thing, and maybe this is just because

688
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 3: I love Tommy Lee Jones, but I felt like you

689
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 3: could argue that it's written in a kind of latantly

690
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 3: homophobic way. But I actually think the performance is a

691
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 3: very lost portrayal of a closeted gay man. Like I

692
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 3: think he's not going over the top, he's not going

693
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 3: super flamboyant in this very kind of stereotypical way. I

694
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 3: really think there's like a dare I say, a quiet

695
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 3: dignity to the performance.

696
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 4: No, yes, I because I think he also he rides

697
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 4: this line of is it that he's hiding this or

698
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 4: is it that he's actually being quite condescending mm hmm

699
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 4: to the people around him who don't get it.

700
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 3: Yes, And I think that is a there's a there's

701
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 3: a certain mix of like self loathing and also narcissism

702
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,839
Speaker 3: that is a speake from experience often unique to gay

703
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 3: man and I honestly think that like that is portrayed

704
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 3: in such a clear way, and it's actually very difficult

705
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 3: to get right.

706
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: Gosh, it is so wild because like when this came out,

707
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 1: there was backlash h.

708
00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 3: Yes, no, absolutely, which of course, I you know, of

709
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 3: course you get when there's like a you know, a

710
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 3: group of kind of like slightly gross, sexually perverse gay

711
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 3: men that are basically in charge of murdering the president

712
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 3: because he's because he wants to end war.

713
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 4: You know, I will say, Kevin Bacon, Tommily Jones, not gross, No,

714
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 4: not at all.

715
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 1: They're very, very handsome. In this movie, Did.

716
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 5: You wish that the wife, Sissy Spacek, you know who,

717
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 5: is kind of establishing that Jim Garrison's the opposite of

718
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 5: all that he's a married man with five children that

719
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 5: he barely has enough time to hang out with. She

720
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 5: has that tiny little dig at him, like are you

721
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 5: going after this man because you're big at it?

722
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: Because you're homophobic?

723
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 5: And I was kind of I kind of wanted the

724
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 5: film to dig into that just a little bit more,

725
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 5: like is that it all part of it? Because it

726
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 5: lets him shrug it off really easily. But I think

727
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,760
Speaker 5: people at the time thought that that was the case,

728
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 5: that he was basically bringing these charges against the Tommily

729
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 5: Jones character to make him say on the record in

730
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 5: front of America that he was out of the clock.

731
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: Yeah.

732
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 3: I actually thought that that was part of a larger

733
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 3: character choice to not make him overtly chauvinistic and super masculine.

734
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 1: You would expect a character.

735
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 3: Like that, especially in the movie that is so like

736
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 3: that really wears its arguments on its sleeve.

737
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: You would expect a character like that to be so

738
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 1: much more abrasive.

739
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 3: And there's something about Costner's performance that's actually like relatively

740
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 3: understated considering the movie he's in.

741
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, I would agree with that. He's almost more of

742
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 5: just an interviewer passing the mic around to hear other

743
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 5: crazy people talk. Because there are performances in this that

744
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 5: are massive to your point. I mean, we didn't even

745
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 5: get in John Candy saying the word daddio like this happens.

746
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,720
Speaker 5: You've got Joe Peshi with mice everywhere in his apartment

747
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 5: because he's trying to work on a cure for cancer.

748
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 5: I mean, you get the sense that Costner's Jim Garrison

749
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 5: is a guy who's just sort of quiet with his

750
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 5: own Roman empire that's keeping him up at night, right,

751
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 5: and these are all the caligulas making his life interesting.

752
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, to me, it's almost the comparison of what the

753
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 4: response was then to how we see it now.

754
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: I feel like is a.

755
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 4: Sign of like progress in acknowledging and accepting and enjoying

756
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 4: that there are complex gay characters and that it's not

757
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,439
Speaker 4: just an automatic that you have to be a good

758
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 4: guy if you're a gay character, or else it's an attack.

759
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:27,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I agree.

760
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 3: I was because I knew that it had this sort

761
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 3: of reputation in this criticism, I expected it to be

762
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:32,839
Speaker 3: much more.

763
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: I don't know, bother some or something. Let's see it.

764
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 3: Why or should we go into sort of final questions? Well,

765
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,399
Speaker 3: first of all, Amy, our first question for our last

766
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 3: question for you is who killed JFK.

767
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know.

768
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 5: What the scarier answer would be. I mean, coming out

769
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 5: of this movie, you get two options. A either believe

770
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 5: it one ass asked and can change the world, or

771
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 5: be you believe that a very powerful president cannot change

772
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 5: the world it will wind up getting murdered. Oh gosh,

773
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 5: I don't want to be to goolag by anybody, But

774
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 5: I don't think Oswald acted alone.

775
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:05,919
Speaker 1: Oh me, yeah, I think we can all agree there.

776
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: Oh okay, good awesome.

777
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 5: I get it's when you talk about conspiracy and then

778
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 5: you believe it a little part of the conspiracy.

779
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: Don't you feel like you're insane? Yes?

780
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 4: Well, and I'm also I cannot tell you how many

781
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 4: times I've been there's kind of like a an ongoing

782
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 4: joke about like when you meet like new mom friends

783
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,919
Speaker 4: and you have to kind of subtly at first see

784
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 4: if they're anti VAXX or not. You're just like kind

785
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 4: of checking out the vibes in the beginning, like right.

786
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 4: But that's how I have felt talking about JFK with people,

787
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,359
Speaker 4: is that I'm like, well, but I can see this,

788
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 4: and then by the end you're all just like, yes,

789
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 4: of course, and there was a second shooter at least

790
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 4: that you know, And it's like every single person I

791
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 4: think is on the same page with that once you

792
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 4: get down to it.

793
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I would honestly love to see more

794
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 3: big directors tackle what happened with the JFA assassination. It's

795
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 3: one every year, Yeah, like when every year, just seventeen

796
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 3: in a row, and then we'll decide which one is

797
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 3: the best one in terms of the actual theory and

798
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 3: which one is the best one in terms of the filmmaking,

799
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 3: because I actually think, you know, do I think this

800
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 3: movie is very explicitly spreading unsubstantiated conspiracy theories. Yes, but

801
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 3: do I think it's sort of like the right instinct

802
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 3: to question the official learner of a history. Also, Yes,

803
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 3: so you know, let's fund I don't know Darren Aronofsky's JFK.

804
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 3: Let's actually not do that.

805
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 1: But you know, it's just an idea. Who would do

806
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 1: the best JFK assassinations? Oh that's a great question.

807
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 4: Oh.

808
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 5: The first thing in my head was I want the

809
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 5: comb brothers to get back together so they can do it.

810
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: I do think that, yes, that would be the right reference,

811
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: that's their homework.

812
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 4: But who would do the most truthful or most accurate?

813
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 4: Does anyone come to mind that, like, does like extremely

814
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 4: accurate but powerful period pieces?

815
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 1: Or I mean, I don't know about accurate.

816
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 3: But you know, Scorsese is in a sort of you know,

817
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 3: has done morally nuanced historical films.

818
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 5: You know, I feel like this guy's version of it

819
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 5: will get maybe a little closer to Oliver Stone one.

820
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 5: But the director that I thought really captured this idea

821
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 5: of fiction nailing the truth better than the truth does

822
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 5: is David Chisel, with the movie Babylon, which got the

823
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 5: chaos of Silent Film exactly right, even though we got

824
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 5: the year right. I think his film feels like it's

825
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 5: very nineteen nineteen, but he's trying to say it in

826
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 5: like nineteen twenty seven anyways, like the idea of making

827
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 5: a movie where you're like, here's the truth, but it

828
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 5: also has orgies and elephants and fire breathers and all

829
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 5: sorts of mania. Yeah, and yet that is closer to

830
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 5: the Silent Film and how it felt to that era

831
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 5: of like wild people coming to La inventing a new

832
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 5: form of art and just being the outcasts with a

833
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 5: new dream than almost anything I've ever seen that tried

834
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 5: to get it right and does it too soberly.

835
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

836
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,439
Speaker 3: No, I do think focusing on the chaos of it

837
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 3: is the right way to go rather than being like,

838
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 3: who is you know, who is a meticulous enough filmmaker

839
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 3: to get.

840
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: The truth exactly right? Like, you know, give it to

841
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: boz Luhrman, Yeah, boz Larman's JFK. Okay.

842
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 3: Well, speaking of buzz Larwin's JFK. As we wrap up, Amy,

843
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 3: I was wondering, what are your favorite Kennedy related pieces

844
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 3: of pop culture and films and everything else? We Lyra

845
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 3: and I have a real soft spot for Grey Gardens,

846
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 3: and I also recently watched House of Yes for the

847
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 3: first time.

848
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:27,720
Speaker 1: I mean, Grey.

849
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 5: Gardens is fantastic. I don't know if you can pick

850
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 5: a better choice than that, but I really came to

851
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 5: admire the Natalie Portman take on Jackie because I never

852
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 5: quite vibed with Natalie Portman often as an actress, But

853
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 5: when you cast her in a role where she's playing

854
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 5: somebody incredibly aware of what her image is in trying

855
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 5: to keep it together for everyone else's sake and doing

856
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 5: a bad job, that's the lane that I love Natalie

857
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 5: Portman in. And I felt like that movie. Even if

858
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 5: I don't necessarily think it's a proper synergy of either

859
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 5: one of those women individually, her or Jackie O, I

860
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 5: do think it captures a venn diagram of them really well.

861
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for joining us today. This

862
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 1: was so fun. Oh my pleasure always down to get

863
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:16,359
Speaker 1: conspiratorial with y'all. Thank you so much, Amie. So that's

864
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 1: it for this week's episode.

865
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,760
Speaker 3: Next week, we're diving into the life of Rosemary Kennedy

866
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 3: with historian Kate Clifford Larsen, author of the biography.

867
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 1: Rosemary, the hidden Kennedy daughter. So subscribe and follow United

868
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:28,840
Speaker 1: States

869
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 4: Of Kennedy for all things Kennedy every week,