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Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And it's Saturday.

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Speaker 1: That vault door creaks open, doesn't it. This episode originally

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Speaker 1: aired janu two, and it's part two of our series

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Speaker 1: on Tumbleweeds. I hope you enjoy Welcome to Stuff to

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Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind production of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome

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Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert

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Speaker 1: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And the Flaming tumbleweed has

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Speaker 1: rolled right back in. We're ready for part two of

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Speaker 1: this series. That's right. If you didn't listen to part one,

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Speaker 1: go back, give it a listen, because we get we

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Speaker 1: get all into the topic of tumble weeds, talking about

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Speaker 1: what what tumbleweeds are? What? What what do we mean

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Speaker 1: when we talk about them in the Americans sense, in

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Speaker 1: a broader sense, why do they do the tumbling? Uh?

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Speaker 1: And so forth. I think it was a pretty fun episode,

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna We're gonna keep the ball rolling today. Now.

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Speaker 1: One of the interesting things that we discovered in the

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Speaker 1: last episode is that while the tumbleweed is an icon

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Speaker 1: of the American West, uh, the main species of tumbleweed.

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Speaker 1: The thing people are usually talking about in the American

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Speaker 1: context when they say a tumbleweed is a plant known

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Speaker 1: as Russian thistle that only arrived in the United States

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Speaker 1: probably around the eighteen seventies. And so this is not

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Speaker 1: even native to North America. It's something that comes from

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Speaker 1: the Eurasian step. Yeah, it is very much an invader.

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Speaker 1: It is an invasive species, and we're gonna get into

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Speaker 1: some of the ramifications of that here. But it's also

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons why if you look for um

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Speaker 1: for like Native American accounts of tumbleweeds, uh, you know

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Speaker 1: they're not going to exist before a certain point because

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Speaker 1: they don't even come in with the initial colonists, with

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Speaker 1: the initial influx of Westerners, or even the first few

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Speaker 1: influxes of Westerners. They come in much later. However, you

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Speaker 1: do find some interesting uh uses of tumbleweed. I was

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Speaker 1: reading in the Journal of American Folklore article titled The

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Speaker 1: Witches Were Saved, a Zuni origin story by Dennis Tedlock.

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Speaker 1: So the Zuni or one of the Pueblo people of

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Speaker 1: the American West, and the author here discusses work by

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Speaker 1: the author Andrew Pinesta intended for oral performance. Pinesta was

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Speaker 1: a Zuni storyteller, and the story in question was apparently

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Speaker 1: told in nineteen sixty five. Uh, and then Tedlock, you know,

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Speaker 1: is writing about it and discussing it, and it concerns

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Speaker 1: interference by the US military into Zuni affairs. But it

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Speaker 1: mentions the tumble weeds in a way that I think

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Speaker 1: is rather clever and drives home their invasive and uh,

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Speaker 1: their their invasive nature. Here. Quote, there's a spot near

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Speaker 1: Neutria where the soldiers camped. They fed hay to their horses,

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Speaker 1: and there were tumbleweeds seeds in it. Now only tumbleweeds

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Speaker 1: grow on that spot and they've spread all over. Oh,

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Speaker 1: so framing the soldiers here is a vector of the

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Speaker 1: spread of this invasive plant. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's my

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Speaker 1: read of it. Anyway, you know, it's touching on the

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Speaker 1: foreign invasive nature of both both the the the American

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Speaker 1: military presence here and the presence of of Westerners in

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Speaker 1: general and the tumbleweed, both things that kind of curse

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Speaker 1: the land. In this viewpoint, I was looking around for,

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Speaker 1: you know, obviously to find older sort of folklore. It

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Speaker 1: takes and cultural takes on tumbleweeds. You have to go

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Speaker 1: to the parts of the world where tumbleweeds were originally

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Speaker 1: or would have spread to before they had a chance

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Speaker 1: to take root in America literally. Um. I was reading

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Speaker 1: The Rooster in the Transylvanian Folklore by Ferric POLSONI, and

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Speaker 1: in it the author rights on the Transylvanian plane, people

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Speaker 1: used to believe that witches would cause aridity by burning

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Speaker 1: a stolen rooster feather on the tumbleweed. Oh, this is interesting.

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Speaker 1: So the tumbleweed Lord does go back, you know, to

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Speaker 1: to pre modernity, but in in the in the Step

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Speaker 1: region rather than in North America. Yeah, and so I was.

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Speaker 1: I was looking around for more references to it. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure there's some good ones I missed. So anybody out

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Speaker 1: there who's aware of of any folkloric treatments of tumble

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Speaker 1: weeds from from any part of the world, right in

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Speaker 1: and share them with us. But I found mentions of

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Speaker 1: tumbleweeds in Mongolian tradition, namely as the subject of traditional

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Speaker 1: Mongolian riddles as Collected and Disgusting in Mongolian Folklore, a

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Speaker 1: representative collection from the Oral Tradition Part one, and this

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Speaker 1: is by hanging Krueger Service and Rosiecki published in Mongolian Studies,

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Speaker 1: and this came out. This is one of those volumes

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Speaker 1: that came out like Bridging eight, five and six, so

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Speaker 1: they cover both Mongolian folks, sayings and riddles in this paper,

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Speaker 1: and this was this is actually a real pleasure to read.

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Speaker 1: I know, Joe, you looked at it as well. It's

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Speaker 1: it's it's almost like I think I was telling me

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Speaker 1: before we recorded, like I kind of want to see

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Speaker 1: this bound as its own little paperback edition and uh

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Speaker 1: and available for purchase somewhere, because it's just it's full

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Speaker 1: of these these fun little Mongolian folks things and then

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Speaker 1: ultimately riddles, many of which you know, we're gonna have

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Speaker 1: residents with with readers anywhere in the world, right though

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Speaker 1: some of which are are completely like going to be

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Speaker 1: lost on you if you don't know much about animal

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Speaker 1: husbandry or goats or anything. But but other ones, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they are very universal and and almost all the sayings

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Speaker 1: are great. Uh So the first half of it concerns

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Speaker 1: more like proverbs, you know, those kind of sayings that

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Speaker 1: that don't they're not like a prompt in the way

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Speaker 1: the riddle is uh and and a lot of the

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Speaker 1: proverbs are really good. One of them that I'm just

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Speaker 1: doing this from memory, but I think it was something like, uh,

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Speaker 1: load a donkey up with cargo, load of fool up

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Speaker 1: with praise. Yeah, they're so good though, obviously, Yeah, they're

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Speaker 1: they're they're they're emerging from a particular culture in a

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Speaker 1: particular region. They speak very much to the environment in

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Speaker 1: the cultures of of the Mongolian people here. Um. But

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Speaker 1: but yeah, the riddles here they have a lot in

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Speaker 1: common with riddle traditions around the world. The authors here

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Speaker 1: right quote the heart of the riddle is naturally the

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Speaker 1: real or fancied resemblance between two ideas or things, although

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Speaker 1: sometimes punning plays a role when the similarity involves two

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Speaker 1: or three words which sound alike. So I have a

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Speaker 1: I have a couple of riddles here. I'm gonna I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna inflict them on you, Joe, and you may be

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Speaker 1: able to guess the answer to a couple of them.

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Speaker 1: But here's the first one. When it comes from yonder,

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Speaker 1: it looks like a camel. When it crawls under the wagon,

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Speaker 1: it looks like a goat. Okay, so I know the

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Speaker 1: answer to this one, which is that it's a tumble weed.

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Speaker 1: But nonetheless I don't get it. I don't understand why

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Speaker 1: it looks like a goat when it crawls under the wagon.

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Speaker 1: What what do goats do under the wagon? That is, like,

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Speaker 1: do goats kind of crack and break or they brittle

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Speaker 1: under a wagon? I don't know. I guess maybe they're

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Speaker 1: just smaller. Like I can definitely, you know that my

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Speaker 1: driving experience that I talked about in the last episode,

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Speaker 1: I can definitely relate to the idea that the bumbling

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Speaker 1: tumbleweed on the highway may look as big as a camel.

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Speaker 1: It may be that intimidating, and then once you actually

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Speaker 1: run it over, you're like, oh, well, that was more

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Speaker 1: like running over a goat. Want sense. I've never run

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Speaker 1: over a goat. I don't know why I laughed, would

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Speaker 1: be very sad to run over a goat, But for

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Speaker 1: some reason that was funny at the time, at the time,

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Speaker 1: for ten seconds ago. But but anyway, I do think

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Speaker 1: this is one of the ones that is interesting because

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Speaker 1: it seems to require some kind of localized knowledge that

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Speaker 1: we don't really have. And this is something actually that

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Speaker 1: the authors mentioned uh in their introduction to the section

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Speaker 1: on Mongolian riddles, they say that, you know, riddles are

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Speaker 1: nearly universal and cultures around the world, and it's interesting

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Speaker 1: to see what topics are the most common in each

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Speaker 1: riddle culture. And so they say, for example, all cultures

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Speaker 1: have riddles concerning astronomical phenomenon like the sun and the moon,

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Speaker 1: but that when you look at Mongolian riddles in particular,

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Speaker 1: they're going to be especially focused on topics like animal husbandry.

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Speaker 1: So there will be riddles that that have to do

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Speaker 1: with camels and goats and horses and things like that.

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Speaker 1: And obviously also localized plants will show up in a

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Speaker 1: culture's riddles about nature, and the tumbleweed would be one

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Speaker 1: of these. Speaking of WAYI here's another riddle Joe from

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Speaker 1: the stuff from this uh this collection. It travels by

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Speaker 1: the wind, it stays in the ditch. Now this one

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Speaker 1: I get more. Yeah, this is a tumbleweed. And I

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Speaker 1: think that the tickling, the brain tickling part of this,

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Speaker 1: Maybe that it's playing on your assumption when you say

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Speaker 1: it travels by the wind. People are naturally primed to

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Speaker 1: think about something other than like a plant or a

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Speaker 1: feature of the natural world. Yeah, something that actually lives

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Speaker 1: and in in the air, and something that flies in

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Speaker 1: the air like a bird. Or you're thinking maybe it's

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Speaker 1: gonna be something like song or something, but what does

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Speaker 1: it mean It stays in the bitch. I thought of

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Speaker 1: a boat. That's a that's a good one too, but no,

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Speaker 1: it's the tumbleweed. Which I mean this feels right as well.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's this thing that is is pretty impressive

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Speaker 1: when it really gets going, but it winds in a

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Speaker 1: good ditch and it's done for exactly. I mean this

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Speaker 1: calls to mind those images we saw last time of

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Speaker 1: you know, five hundred tumbleweeds all jammed into a culvert.

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Speaker 1: Yeah alright, so Joe, you knew that the answer to

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Speaker 1: those riddles was going to be the tumbleweed. But I

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Speaker 1: wanted to I wanted to give you a shot. It's

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Speaker 1: a non tumble weed Mongolian riddles here. Okay, So these

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Speaker 1: I I I realized these may be a bit difficult,

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Speaker 1: but we're gonna give it a shot. Here's the first one.

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Speaker 1: If I only had a tongue, I would be a witness.

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Speaker 1: If I could only rise up, I could reach up

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Speaker 1: to heaven. Now I saw this one before you read it,

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Speaker 1: and I thought about it, and I honestly have no idea.

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Speaker 1: I mean, so the second one is making me think

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Speaker 1: it maybe is something that is long but not tall,

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Speaker 1: you know, like, yeah, but but I really don't know. Well,

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Speaker 1: you're on the right track, because the answer to this

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Speaker 1: one is the road. Oh okay, uh, well, I certainly

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Speaker 1: get the second half. If I could only rise up,

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Speaker 1: I could reach up to heaven, you know, if you

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Speaker 1: could flip the axis. But why what is it about

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Speaker 1: the tongue? If I only had a tongue that could

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Speaker 1: be a witness, I I don't, I don't know this one.

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Speaker 1: They didn't come. They basically just explained that this one

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Speaker 1: had to do with you know, they give the answer,

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Speaker 1: but they didn't explain what the tongue and the witness

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Speaker 1: bit means. Maybe just because you so much happens on

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Speaker 1: the road, that the road is is kind of all knowing.

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Speaker 1: In a sense, it connects to everywhere. Yeah, it's like

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Speaker 1: if these walls could talk, but there are no walls,

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Speaker 1: if this road could talk. Yeah, and in in a sense,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's yeah, it is everywhere at once that

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Speaker 1: this road that I am on is is also in

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Speaker 1: this distant city as well as the city I came from.

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Speaker 1: And it's with me right here. Interesting. All right, here's

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Speaker 1: one more. I have something. Others use it a lot,

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Speaker 1: but I use it only occasionally. Now with this one,

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Speaker 1: I also have no idea. I was trying to think

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Speaker 1: in the animal agriculture kind of zone. Would could this

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Speaker 1: be something about I don't know, a like a goat?

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Speaker 1: Does a goat not use its own milk very much?

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Speaker 1: Or something? I don't know. Well, the answer to this

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Speaker 1: one is my name. Oh oh, that's very good. It's

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Speaker 1: very good. Yeah. Yeah, the the rationale being that generally

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Speaker 1: you're not saying your own name as much as other

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Speaker 1: people are saying your name. But this is like not

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Speaker 1: a good riddle if it's delivered by Bob Dole, right yeah,

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Speaker 1: or doing the Rock Johnson that kind of thing exactly. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Well I pulled that one for you, Rob. Did you

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Speaker 1: already see the solution to this one? Um? I don't.

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Speaker 1: I'd probably not going to remember it. Okay, it's just

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Speaker 1: one line. The head is the enemy of its body.

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Speaker 1: M what is it? The head is the enemy of

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Speaker 1: its body? Oh? Oh, I don't know. Again, I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking and my mind is turning to two cows and

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Speaker 1: goats and horses, and I'm I'm also, you know, trying

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Speaker 1: to think of like the great expanse of the Mongolian countryside,

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Speaker 1: and I'm I'm drawing a blank here. I think I

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Speaker 1: got us overly focused on on bovida and stuff. No, No,

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Speaker 1: the answer is a matchstick. That's pretty good. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this has got to be a more modern riddle, I guess.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know when all of these come from,

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Speaker 1: Like do some of these date back hundreds of years

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Speaker 1: whereas others are, you know, maybe from the ninete or

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Speaker 1: twentieth century. Yeah, I get the impression that that a

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Speaker 1: number of them maybe more recent. Oh and another one

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Speaker 1: of them that I saw was pretty interesting was just

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Speaker 1: the same one that appears in the It's the riddle

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Speaker 1: of the Sphinx from from Oedipus, So that that appears

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Speaker 1: to be a cross cultural riddle. You know, what has

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Speaker 1: four legs in the morning, two legs in the in

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Speaker 1: the noontime, and three legs in the evening. It is

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Speaker 1: a human, you know, because you're a baby and you crawl,

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Speaker 1: and then as an adult you walk on two legs,

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Speaker 1: and then an old age, you use a cane. Oh,

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Speaker 1: but I got one more for you, rob. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: this one is on a sunny day, there are two.

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Speaker 1: On a sunless day, there is but one. On a

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Speaker 1: moonlit night, there are two. On a moonless night, there

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Speaker 1: is but one. I mean, I'm thinking about light and silhouettes, shadows. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's it. It's a shadow. Is it a shadow? Okay? Wait,

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Speaker 1: so the person's shadow. There are two of you on

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Speaker 1: a sunny day because you have a shadow. Okay, I

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Speaker 1: got that, but okay, and then on a sunless day

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Speaker 1: there's just you. There's no shadow. On a moon at night,

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Speaker 1: there too, Again, you have a shadow. And on a

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Speaker 1: moonless night it's too dark to see anything, right, should

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Speaker 1: there Yeah, there shouldn't even be one on a moonless night.

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Speaker 1: I guess the stars are so bright. That's one thing

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Speaker 1: I guess we have to consider. I don't know for certain,

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Speaker 1: but it reminds me of things I've read about Egyptian mythology,

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Speaker 1: and about how UH, an often unobscured sky, is so

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Speaker 1: central to UH sort of the world view of of say,

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Speaker 1: ancient Egyptians. I wonder if that holds true in Mongolian

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Speaker 1: culture as well, because if you have like this brilliant

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Speaker 1: starlet sky and there's you know, less probability of cloud cover,

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Speaker 1: then perhaps that does illuminate things a little better. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, certainly there's going to be less possibility

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Speaker 1: of you know, light pollution and artificial light kind of

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Speaker 1: creating these these deeper pockets of shadow. But why does

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Speaker 1: the tumbleweed under the wagon look like a goat? I

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Speaker 1: mean maybe it just has to do with like, once

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Speaker 1: it gets up here, it's not going to you know,

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Speaker 1: kick butt like a camel would like. It's going to

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Speaker 1: be more or less hiding underneath the cart like a

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Speaker 1: goat kind of Uh, it's gonna be this It's not

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Speaker 1: gonna be this bounding, brave looking thing. It's going to

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Speaker 1: be this meek uh, a little ball that's hiding around

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Speaker 1: underneath the carts or jammed under a wheel, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: Mongolian listeners right in teach us help us figure this

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Speaker 1: one out. By the way, the saying is collected in

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Speaker 1: this this this book, or I mean in this paper

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Speaker 1: also great. Uh, here's an example one that kept jumping

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Speaker 1: out of me every time I sort of skimmed past

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Speaker 1: it looking for tumbleweeds, men follow customs, dogs follow bones?

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Speaker 1: I like that one. Yeah, that is good. So if

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Speaker 1: this implies a parallel in the way that these things

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Speaker 1: are followed, would it be that humans go after social

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Speaker 1: customs in a kind of driven, hungry, instinctual way. You know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if that is the way we're supposed

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Speaker 1: to take this, or does it mean that a dog

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Speaker 1: like just follows their gut instinct didn't like, you know,

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Speaker 1: follows immediate evidence. But mene have customs that they have

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Speaker 1: to follow. Oh yeah, that's it. That could be the contrast.

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Speaker 1: But but but I I find your interpretation interesting as well.

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Speaker 1: I could I guess I could se it go either way.

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Speaker 1: I guess there's no comparative word in there. Doesn't say

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Speaker 1: men follow customs like dogs follow bones. Anyway, there are

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Speaker 1: more of these and if you're interested, again, it's Mongolian Folklore,

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Speaker 1: a representative collection from the oral literary tradition, Part one

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Speaker 1: And that's a bit of one J store. So if

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Speaker 1: you go to J S t O R dot org

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Speaker 1: you can you can access it for free. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you have to sign in, Like I, I

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Speaker 1: access it via membership. But um, but not a paid membership,

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Speaker 1: so go for it if you're interested. Okay, one more

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Speaker 1: one before we move on that this is just a proverb.

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Speaker 1: It's that children who grow up spoiled are more difficult

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Speaker 1: to handle than a bull's neck. Okay, what about a

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Speaker 1: bull's neck, though, I guess it's difficult to get your

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Speaker 1: hands around it, right, Like it's is. A bold net

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Speaker 1: can be so thick that you can't even reach your

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Speaker 1: arms around it and like, you know, lock your your

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Speaker 1: knuckles together. Yeah, thank alright, So we're gonna we're gonna

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Speaker 1: leave mongolian Um wisdom aside here for a little bit.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna get back to more North American tales of

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Speaker 1: the tumbleweed. And so I was just you know, thinking

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Speaker 1: at this point you're probably going, well, geez, guys, I

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Speaker 1: get the tumbleweeds are bad, and uh, you know that's

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Speaker 1: sometimes they're like a camel and sometimes like there a goat. Okay,

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Speaker 1: fair enough, but what do they mean for the proliferation

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Speaker 1: of radioactive waste? Well, we're glad you ask, because it's

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Speaker 1: actually an interesting question. Uh. And one of the things

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Speaker 1: I found even more fascinating about it is that they're

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Speaker 1: the role that tumbleweeds play in in our treatment of

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Speaker 1: radioactive waste can vary greatly depending on like what source

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Speaker 1: you're looking at. Well, yeah, and I think the radioactivity

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Speaker 1: will play more into the second example we're talking about

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Speaker 1: them the first, which might be more clearly classed as

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Speaker 1: a case of toxic waste, right, yes, but but both

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Speaker 1: have to do with the leavings of of the atomic age. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the atomic ages we've discussed on the show before,

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Speaker 1: especially I think the the episode or episodes in question, uh,

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Speaker 1: it was titled the Atomic Scar. Uh. The Atomic Ages

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Speaker 1: left various scars on the planet, including radioactive waste that

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Speaker 1: we have to see laway and figure out how to

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Speaker 1: symbolically worn apocalyptic wanders ten thousand years in the future

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Speaker 1: that they shouldn't mess with this because it's bad. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So we're always looking at for ways to secure it,

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Speaker 1: to resecure it, to clean it up, et cetera. Now,

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Speaker 1: you might remember another episode we did titled The Tide

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Speaker 1: of Gold, and in that we discussed some sort of

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Speaker 1: novel gold harvesting schemes and ideas, and we discussed how

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Speaker 1: plants can harvest gold from the ground. Basically, the premise

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Speaker 1: here is that some plants have the ability to absorb

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Speaker 1: minerals through their roots and and uh and and concentrate

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Speaker 1: metals such as nickel, uh, cadmium, and zinc. These plants

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Speaker 1: are also known as hyper accumulators. There are no natural

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Speaker 1: gold hyper accumulators, but there are ways to make it

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Speaker 1: possible through soil manipulation. So you like treat the soil

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Speaker 1: that contains the gold in a certain way, and you

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Speaker 1: can sort of engineer it so that certain plants that

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Speaker 1: have this natural ability will actually draw that gold up

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Speaker 1: into their roots system. So you can probably see where

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Speaker 1: we're going here. Um, remember how we mentioned that tumble

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Speaker 1: weed roots can dive twenty feet down into the soil. Well,

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Speaker 1: As pointed out by geologist Dana Ulmer Shoal of the

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Speaker 1: New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology in SoCoRo, reporting

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Speaker 1: to the U S Geological Society in two thousand four,

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Speaker 1: taboweed plants are actually really good. It's soaking up depleted

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Speaker 1: uranium from contaminated soils and weapons testing grounds and battlefields.

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Speaker 1: Now this is interesting. I guess we should do a

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Speaker 1: little sidebar here on depleted uranium because you might be wondering. Okay,

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Speaker 1: depleted uranium, and you you hear that, hear uranium your

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Speaker 1: weapons testing grounds, and you might naturally think like, oh,

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Speaker 1: nuclear bomb detonation sites, But this is actually talking about

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Speaker 1: something different. Uh. So, depleted uranium is often used in

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Speaker 1: heavy munitions as as a metal, not as a fissile

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Speaker 1: material for a bomb, but as a metal. And it's

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Speaker 1: used in these munitions because of its density and armor

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Speaker 1: penetrating properties. So it's you know, you can make a

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Speaker 1: very dense projectile out of it. I believe it is

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Speaker 1: more than half again as dense as leads something. It's

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Speaker 1: like sixty something percent more dense than lead is uh

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Speaker 1: And that density all so makes it useful for certain

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Speaker 1: things in like the aeronautics field. I think I've read

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Speaker 1: that it's used sometimes as a counterweight or counterbalance in

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Speaker 1: some helicopter rotor blades, but it's also used for plating

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Speaker 1: and armored vehicles, again because it's dense so it's more

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Speaker 1: likely to stop a projectile, and then also in creating

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Speaker 1: shielding against radiation. But as as ammunition in particular, I

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Speaker 1: think depleted uranium is used not just because it's dense,

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Speaker 1: but because say, when it hits the armor plating of

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Speaker 1: a tank to try to penetrate it. It has these

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Speaker 1: properties where it tends to kind of fragment in a

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Speaker 1: way that that makes the projectile sharper rather than blunt

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Speaker 1: r And as it penetrates through the armor plating of

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Speaker 1: an armored vehicle, it also tends to ignite and explode

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Speaker 1: on the inside. So it has a lot of properties

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Speaker 1: that you would want if you were trying to shoot

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Speaker 1: through an armored vehicle. Now, to pick up on the

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Speaker 1: caveat I was giving earlier about radioactivity, depleted uranium has

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Speaker 1: very low levels of radioactivity. It's actually it actually has

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Speaker 1: less radioactivity then is typically found in natural uranium. But uranium,

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Speaker 1: whether natural or depleted uranium, has significant chemical toxicity. So

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Speaker 1: it is clear that it is dangerous to ingest certain

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Speaker 1: amounts of it beyond a certain threshold. But at least

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Speaker 1: according to some sources, this is not really because of radioactivity. Uh,

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Speaker 1: though there might be some continuing controversy about the radiological

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Speaker 1: effects in particular. I'll mention a little more about that

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Speaker 1: in a minute, um, but I was trying to look up, Okay,

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Speaker 1: how does it work well? According to the US Agency

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Speaker 1: for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry or the A T. S.

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Speaker 1: D R, which is a government agency under the under

401
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Speaker 1: the umbrella of the Health and Human Services Department. UH

402
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Speaker 1: that they put out a fact sheet on the health

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Speaker 1: effects of uranium, both known and under investigation, and they

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Speaker 1: say that both natural and depleted uranium have that they

405
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Speaker 1: have the same toxic effects within a human body, the

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Speaker 1: primary of which is adverse effects to the renal system,

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Speaker 1: so the kidneys, so either inhaling or ingesting significant amounts

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Speaker 1: of uranium compounds and I think possibly by uh by

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Speaker 1: having it enter the body as shrapnel as well. UH.

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Speaker 1: This is known to cause damage to the kidneys, and

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Speaker 1: there may be some secondary effects as well, but the

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Speaker 1: secondary effects are less clear. UM. The more I looked

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Speaker 1: into this, the more complicated the picture of the health

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Speaker 1: effects of exposure to depleted uranium became. UM. So like

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Speaker 1: you'll find a lot of debate that there their questions

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Speaker 1: about the exposure of combat veterans and people living in

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Speaker 1: war zones who have been exposed to ammunition with depleted

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Speaker 1: geranium content. UH. And I did not have time to

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Speaker 1: wade into all of that controversy and figure out what

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Speaker 1: I thought about it. But I will say, at the

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Speaker 1: very least, UH, you do not want your body exposed

422
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 1: to high levels of depleted uranium. UH, definitely because of

423
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 1: its known adverse health effects. And then there may be

424
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,120
Speaker 1: other second area effects on top of what is currently

425
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,919
Speaker 1: known as well. But like most things, UH, the the

426
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 1: toxicity of depleted uranium depends on dosage over time. So

427
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 1: we're all exposed to tiny amounts of uranium from the

428
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 1: natural environment on a consistent basis. This is completely unavoidable.

429
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,400
Speaker 1: It's just part of living on planet Earth. There's gonna

430
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 1: be tiny, tiny amounts of uranium and the food you eat,

431
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: in the water you drink. But if you are living

432
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 1: in certain areas where there is significant uranium contamination in

433
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: the environment, those those levels could go up above what

434
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 1: is safe. Right. And therefore it stands to reason if

435
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 1: you had, say a former ammunition testing ground, and you

436
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: wanted to do something else with that and not just

437
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,439
Speaker 1: keep it, uh, you know, set aside for you know,

438
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 1: the duration of of of human civilization or something. Uh,

439
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 1: you might want to reclaim it. You might want to

440
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 1: find a way to get depleted uranium out of the ground.

441
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 1: And UH that's where a few different plants have have

442
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 1: shown promise at drinking up that depleted geranium um. One

443
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,679
Speaker 1: of them, for instances, the Indian mustard plant. But as

444
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: this this research points out, one of the things about

445
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,479
Speaker 1: many of these plants is that they thrive in um

446
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: in in wetter soils. What are you gonna do when

447
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: you have something out in a desert, right, Well, that's

448
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 1: where the tumbleweed comes in. The tumbleweed, of course, famously

449
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: excels in dry barren places. Uh. One rolls into a

450
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 1: well irrigated yard in a New Mexico suburb and it's doomed. Uh.

451
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 1: It can't compete with the grass. But if it goes

452
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 1: into an abandoned um uh you know, a feed lot

453
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 1: or a girl or some sort of agricultural site, uh,

454
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: an undeveloped bad land, well, then that's where the tumbleweed

455
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 1: is king. And so it's ideally suited for some of

456
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: the desolate places that we find depleted uranium in the

457
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: United States, especially uh in in the West uh in

458
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: the Western States. So the argument here is that this

459
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: could be a safe method as well, because the plants

460
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,479
Speaker 1: do most of the absorption well before they detach. So

461
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: if you were managing the site, if you were, you know,

462
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: planting intentionally the the the tumbleweed plants here, then the

463
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: plants could be harvested and disposed of well before the

464
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 1: the drawing phase begins, and then ultimately the tumbleweed breaks

465
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 1: free and is able to roll free exactly. And so

466
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: I thought this was very interesting. I did look around

467
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 1: for more follow up on this about using tumbleweeds for

468
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 1: for remediation of heavy metals like deplet to geranium or

469
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: other toxic substances in soils, and I didn't find anything

470
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 1: much more recent. So so I don't know, uh, if

471
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: for or how much anybody's picked up on this research,

472
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: but but yeah, yeah, well like like we we hinded

473
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: that before. This is a This is something we often

474
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: see with the tumble with tumbleweed related research. Somebody will

475
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: have an idea about something we can do with the

476
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 1: tumble weeds. What can we do with these tumble weeds?

477
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 1: What can we do about these tumbleweeds? And someone will

478
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 1: have a novel approach, but either it's something that doesn't

479
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: seem to work out for one reason or another, or

480
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 1: it requires more research and it's perhaps still being researched. Um,

481
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 1: it seems like I saw this more often than not. Oh,

482
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 1: did we ever find anything else out about what happened

483
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: to that tumbleweed eating machine we talked about in part one? No,

484
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: not yet. But but the as we're recording this the episode,

485
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: how the first episode has not aired, So I'm hoping

486
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: that we'll hear from some New Mexico listeners, like maybe

487
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: maybe there are counties in New Mexico where they had

488
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: one of these or have one still. I don't know,

489
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 1: maybe we'll get some local intel. I did email one

490
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: of the researchers who is involved in the original project

491
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: and the original prototype, but I have not heard back

492
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: from them. And and nor would I be that surprised

493
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: because just some RANDO is reaching out of them out

494
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 1: of nowhere and ask them about a project that they

495
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: worked on decades ago. Uh. I can understand there there

496
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: they might see that it's just a spam email, all right,

497
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: So we're not done with the idea of tumbleweeds and

498
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: to weapons sites and so forth. Uh. And And this

499
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: week turned to an article that you you dug up, Joe.

500
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: This was from Sarah Zang writing UH for Gizmoto back

501
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: in two thousand fourteen, which was just a really great

502
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: year for all things tumble with a number of the

503
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: articles that we have end up referring to when this

504
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: come from. But she cited a George Johnson piece in

505
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: National Geographic particularly uh this bit quote. During the early

506
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, after above ground nuclear testing finally ceased at

507
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,880
Speaker 1: the Nevada test site, the first thing said to grow

508
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: back was Russian thistle. Radioactive south sola has come tumbling

509
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: out of the old Hanford Nuclear Reservation in Washington, where

510
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: plutonium was manufactured during the Cold War. I half expect

511
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: to hear someday that Russian thistle has been found on

512
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: the Moon. Yeah. And uh, I can't remember if we

513
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: already said it so far in this episode or not,

514
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: but Russian thistle is the common name of the main

515
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: species of tumbleweed that that is now known in the

516
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: United States. Uh. That's the number of different scientific names

517
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: have been used. Sal solo tregas calli tregas. Uh. And

518
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,959
Speaker 1: this is the salsola sal sola that the author here

519
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: is talking about in this Uh. This net g opiece

520
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: has being quoted. But yeah, it is not surprising to

521
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: me to hear that tumbleweed is is the first thing

522
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: moving in uh at a at a nuclear testing site,

523
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: right and uh and as saying explains, it's just one

524
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: of many organisms that can interfere where our efforts just

525
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: set aside such waste and such way side or just

526
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: sort of secure such locations. UM. Now, the the Hanford

527
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: Nuclear Reservation is of note here because yet and tumbleweeds

528
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: were in the news as recently as January, as reported

529
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: by Maria Kramer in the New York Times with the

530
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: headline storm of tumbleweeds, berries cars, terrifies drivers and astounds police.

531
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: But some I have to point out that some places,

532
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: including I believe that the Chicago Tribune altered the headline

533
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: UM or updated the headline. I would say, I don't

534
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: want to say altered, like they did something super nefarious

535
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: to say, um storm of quote unquote nuclear tumbleweeds, barries cars,

536
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: terrifies drivers and astounds police. UM. It's in quotes because

537
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: they're referring to a particular quote in the original article

538
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: where they're talking about this tumble getting in which they

539
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: mentioned quote. The highway is in a flat, wide open

540
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: area close to the Hanford Nuclear Reservation, which is known

541
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: as one of the sites of the Manhattan project and

542
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: where plutonium was produced to help build the atom bomb.

543
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: And then there's this quote from a Mr thorn Thorson

544
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: that says, quote, some people are calling them nuclear tumbleweeds.

545
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: So that's so that might be jumping to some conclusions here,

546
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: but not not entirely without reason, right right, Yeah, the

547
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: article does not discuss tumbleweeds as radioactive in nature, other

548
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 1: and including that one little quote. Uh. But um, the

549
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: the Hanford location, as discussed by Elliott Marshall in the

550
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: edition of the journal Science UM has pointed out that

551
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: that this is a location that has had issues with badgers, rabbits,

552
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: ground squirrels, burrowing owls, pocket mice, insects, rabbit brush, and yes, tumbleweeds, uh,

553
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: interfering with with human efforts to sort of leave this

554
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: site alone and undisturbed. Well, yeah, they're literally having breaches

555
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: due to wildlife like failures of nuclear material or high

556
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: level waste containment due to breaches by things like badgers. Yeah,

557
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: and then things like rabbits with like radioactive rabbit poop

558
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: because rabbits have gotten in there. Yes, here's the quote

559
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: from Marshall, with roots that can grow down twenty feet

560
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: tumbleweeds reached down into waste dumps and take up strontium ninety,

561
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,959
Speaker 1: break off and blow around the dry land, and this

562
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: caused them to worry that the radio ation in the

563
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: tumbleweeds could then be released into the air if these

564
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: weeds were to to do what tumbleweeds sometimes do, collect

565
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,239
Speaker 1: somewhere and then catch fire, or what happens if they

566
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: reach a body of water. Remember that example from the

567
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: last episode talking about a tumbleweed. Uh, this mighty tumbleweed

568
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: rolling into the water and then kind of melting there. Um,

569
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: you know you don't want your your your radioactive shredded

570
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 1: wheat hitting the milk exactly. Yeah, Okay, So it's it's

571
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: not necessarily actually known that these tumbleweeds from this story

572
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: in January had significant radioactivity levels. But tumbleweeds are one

573
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: of the biological vectors that could potentially breach some types

574
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 1: of nuclear material containment. Right, that seems to be the case,

575
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: And of course the fact that they then break off

576
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: and blow around afterwards is not helpful, right, And I mean,

577
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: we do have to to acknowledge the fact that there

578
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: are radioactive tumbleweeds. In the video game Fallout New Vegas.

579
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: So I don't know is that true the tumbleweeds? Apparently

580
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: I I played New Vegas and I remember enjoying it,

581
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: but I do not remember the tumbleweeds. I had not

582
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: yet fostered an appreciation for the tumbleweed, so if they

583
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: were there, I forgot them. But I ran across this

584
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: in in my searches. So it seems to be the case.

585
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: Let's say good on them a fall at the what

586
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: what was the team that made that game? They did

587
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: their research? Now, given all we shared about the problems

588
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: posed by invasive tumbleweeds in the United States, it should

589
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: come as no surprise that the U s d A

590
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: has looked into ways of eradicating them, or at least

591
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: significantly reducing their number. Uh and they've some some of

592
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: the ways they've They've they've examined this or rather interesting.

593
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: One method that has been proposed is to take the

594
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: classic approach and and introduce a particular type of MIGHT.

595
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: This is a Syria south soul, which kills the growing

596
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 1: tips of the plant and stunts it. Supposedly, studies have

597
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 1: shown that it only targets this particular MIGHT species. It

598
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: only targets a few closely related species to the tumbleweed,

599
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: and all of these species are pest species. Oh, but

600
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: the proposed biological controls do not stop there, that's right.

601
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: They've also looked into Researchers have also looked into using

602
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: two fungi species native to the tumbleweeds original uh you know,

603
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,760
Speaker 1: Russian or Ukrainian environment. This news was making the rounds.

604
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: They've also looked into viral methods of targeting invasive tumbleweeds

605
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 1: with viruses. The U. S d A was also testing

606
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: viruses developed from two types of dying tumbleweeds and uh

607
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: in Russia and in Hungary, and this was also reported

608
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 1: in Again just a banner year for tumbleweed research. Now,

609
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 1: I'm not sure where we are with any of these

610
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: different approaches anyway. I mean, that's not too long ago.

611
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: It seems feasible that there still could be some research

612
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 1: going on there. Um uh, maybe it's a situation where

613
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: the research did fizzle out, or maybe there's just a

614
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: lot of contemplation that has to go into the massive

615
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: introduction of another invasive species or some sort of other

616
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 1: biological control to try and take care of your existing problem,

617
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: because you you know, you don't want to overflow the

618
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: tub anymore than it's already overflowing. You know. I was

619
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: just trying to remember which previous episode we talked about

620
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: some of the um controversies of using you know, different

621
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: species for bio control methods of of existing invasive species.

622
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: Uh and Uh, the one that came to mind that

623
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 1: looks at least the time we talked about it like

624
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: it was going pretty well was on Christmas Island, where

625
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: the you know, the the big native crab populations are. Wait,

626
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,839
Speaker 1: where those crab abs originally from somewhere else as well.

627
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,800
Speaker 1: I don't recall anyway, the crab populations on Christmas Island,

628
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: the glorious flows the ocean, the tide of crabs. They

629
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: were being threatened by these ant populations there that were,

630
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 1: you know, squirting formic acid into the crabs joints and

631
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: and killing them. I think there were the the yellow

632
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 1: crazy ants, right, Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah, so the

633
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:28,919
Speaker 1: yellow crazy ants. Uh. There were some conservationists who had

634
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: developed a plan to help try to control populations of

635
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: the yellow crazy ants by deploying a predator, a predatory

636
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: micro wasp that would that would cut back on the

637
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: ant colonies there. Uh, and at least last time we

638
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: read about that, it seemed like that was going well

639
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: so far and uh, and had not had any any

640
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,439
Speaker 1: dangerous spillover. But yeah, you always wonder, like you don't

641
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: you know, first order of businesses do no harm. And uh,

642
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: it's always it's always a little risky when you say, well,

643
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: let's introduce a different thing and and just hope that

644
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: it only has this targeted effect that we wanted to. Yeah,

645
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 1: I mean time was when human beings thought they could

646
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: fix a problem by introducing a new invasive species, they

647
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: would just do it and and that would and and

648
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: a lot of times that would end up resulting in

649
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,919
Speaker 1: a new problem, a new invasive species. So it's it's

650
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 1: good that, uh, we're being more thoughtful about this because

651
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: ultimately you're dealing with a very complex ecosystem in any case. Um,

652
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: and it's it's difficult to figure out exactly what the

653
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 1: ramifications of introducing something new or going to be or

654
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 1: introducing another new thing into it. Oh, but I just recalled.

655
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: I had been trying to remember what was the example

656
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: we talked about in that episode of of a a

657
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,320
Speaker 1: bio control species that had been introduced and then really

658
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: backfired and I couldn't call it to mind, but I

659
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: just did. It was the cane toads in Australia that

660
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 1: were brought in, I think to control b the old

661
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 1: populations that were threatening agriculture. But then the cane toads

662
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 1: became a became a huge problem in their own right. Yeah, yeah, there,

663
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 1: yeah there. There's so many different accounts one can turn

664
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,760
Speaker 1: to where we can move with our our cautionary tales

665
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 1: in introducing new species to try and fix the problem.

666
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: Uh And and then you know, another aspect of all

667
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,919
Speaker 1: of this too is that this is the things changed,

668
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: the environments shift. UM. For instance, I was looking at

669
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: a University of California riverside study from UM and then

670
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 1: this was making the case that the quote unquote monster

671
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: tumbleweed species salth solar or ryani was once thought to

672
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 1: be actually going extinct, but it has since gained ground

673
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: as it apparently remains green into late summer and has

674
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 1: been increasingly been able to take full advantage of rains

675
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: during that time period. Uh So it's footprint has been

676
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 1: expanding in recent years. And this is one that grows

677
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 1: up to six ft tall, so it is a massive tumbleweed.

678
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 1: But just just I guess a footnote in the you know,

679
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: in the lesson that you know you're you can try

680
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: and solve one particular problem in at a certain period

681
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 1: of time. But but what is the situation gonna look like, uh,

682
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: you know, say ten years down the road, especially when

683
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: we're looking at at at climate change and um and

684
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: and other factors having an impact on the natural environment.

685
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 1: But but then again, maybe maybe I'm wrong. And like,

686
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 1: as we're recording this, somewhere on the roads in New Mexico,

687
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 1: there is a massive snowplow with an enormous um grinder

688
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: on the front of it. And in the back of

689
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: that snowplow there are a whole bunch of mites and

690
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 1: viruses and fun guy, and it's just making a bee

691
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: line for the tumbleweed. Uh nation. So I don't know, sorry,

692
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 1: I'm thinking now about the six foot tall tumbleweed. Okay,

693
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: so I'm imagining somebody trying to like get that with

694
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: a pitchfork. How heavy does that get? I know, the

695
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: tumbleweeds are typically very low density, right because they need

696
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: to be able to be blown by the wind. But

697
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: I don't know, once you're six ft wide. You also

698
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 1: have a lot of surface area to catch the winds,

699
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 1: so you could probably be pretty heavy and still get

700
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 1: blown around. Like how hard does it get? We can?

701
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 1: Can they just get bigger and bigger and bigger? I

702
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:24,720
Speaker 1: mean they are mostly air. But that being said, I

703
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,280
Speaker 1: if I had to choose between hitting a four ft

704
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: diameter tumbleweed with my rental car or or hitting a

705
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,800
Speaker 1: six foot diameter tumbleweed with my rental car, I'm definitely

706
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 1: going to sort of towards the four ft uh diameter tumbleweed.

707
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 1: That being said, again, if you're driving and the tumbleweeds

708
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: come out, you don't swerve, That's where the problems really start.

709
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: I suppose I'm imagining runaway tumbleweed evolution where they you know,

710
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 1: tin foot tumbleweed, thirty foot tumbleweed, hundred foot tumbleweed, and

711
00:40:55,480 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 1: eventually the planet is ruled by gargantuan tumbleweeds. It creates

712
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 1: their own culture, you know. Coming back to um, you

713
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: know cinematic uses of tumbleweed that we touched on earlier

714
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,240
Speaker 1: on UH, it does seem that that it's the symbol

715
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 1: the the iconic scene is that lone tumbleweed making its

716
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 1: way across the screen. Um, I don't think I've ever seen,

717
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 1: or I don't remember ever seeing a cinematic treatment where

718
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 1: it is like a whole herd of tumbleweeds. But that

719
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 1: is the more impressive site, and in a way, it

720
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 1: would seem to drive home the desolation. Not only is

721
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 1: this place so desolate, um, that one tumbleweed is coming by,

722
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: it is just taken over all life is tumbleweed here.

723
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 1: I bet you could make a really good sentient tumbleweeds

724
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 1: horror movie that. Yeah, well, we we were discussing this

725
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: a little bit um off Mike the other day. I

726
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 1: wonder to what extent, or any extent, the Critters franchise

727
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: has any connection to Tumbleweeds. I mean, those are films

728
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: that originate out of Texas. Uh, the first one was

729
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: set in Texas. I believe I forgot that, so I

730
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 1: couldn't find anything just offhand. I didn't go deep and

731
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 1: start listening to directors, commentaries or anything. But uh, you

732
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 1: know those those creatures, the crates, they're they're kind of

733
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,280
Speaker 1: like a little tumbleweeds and they rolled together, they joined

734
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: together into big tumbling pods. Um. They're kind of like

735
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,839
Speaker 1: creature and they're invasive other from another planet. I put

736
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 1: it out to you the listener, have you directed a

737
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: Critters movie? So right in and let us know what

738
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: you think about the comparison between a crit and a tumbleweed?

739
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: Are you Leonardo DiCaprio, Yeah, you know was in Critters

740
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 1: to The Critters franchise has as a lot of talent,

741
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:44,360
Speaker 1: and if you start really looking at some of the

742
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 1: names involved, especially on the acting end of the spectrum, Uh,

743
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,879
Speaker 1: it's it's it's star studded. It's just the one where

744
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 1: they just like go to a buffet restaurant. Isn't there

745
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 1: one where they do that? I don't know, Um, the

746
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:00,800
Speaker 1: Critters movies are. It's one of those ranchises where I

747
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: don't think I've I've ever sat down and just watched

748
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: a full Critters movie. It's just they would come on

749
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: TV a lot back in the day, and so when

750
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,839
Speaker 1: Critters was on, you just watched some Critters and I'm

751
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 1: not sure you know at what point I was jumping

752
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 1: in and out of the series. The other day you

753
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 1: pointed out that there's one Critters movie where they go

754
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 1: to space, which is a little underwhelming because the Critters

755
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 1: are from space. There aliens yeah, but it's like it

756
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 1: makes sense for when Jason goes to space, that's weird.

757
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: You lepre cond in space. Okay, that's weird. But now

758
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 1: this is like aliens in space. Well, um yeah, maybe

759
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:36,839
Speaker 1: it's a it's a it's a little odd, but it's

760
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:38,919
Speaker 1: where you gotta go. It's like they went. They went

761
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 1: to Critters one, Critters too, Critters three, they go to

762
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 1: l A, Critters four, they go into space. I don't

763
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 1: know where they go after that. I think there was

764
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: a TV series recently. Well I think they go on

765
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 1: the Odyssey. Then, right, it's they're trying to return home

766
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 1: to it Thaca maybe. So all right, we're gonna go

767
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 1: ahead and call it there. Uh, this is gonna be

768
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 1: the end of our two episode series on tumble Weeds.

769
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: But again, we'd love to hear from everyone out there,

770
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 1: especially those of you who live in tumbleweed Country, which

771
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 1: you know, technically if you look at a map includes uh,

772
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: you know most people in the United States. Uh. But

773
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 1: at any rate, we'd love to hear your your your

774
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 1: tidbits in your your hear of your experience with the

775
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: mighty tumbleweed, whether it becoming actually like a camel or

776
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 1: hiding under the card like a goat. In the meantime,

777
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 1: if you like to listen to other episodes of Stuff

778
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind, well, you can listen to us

779
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 1: in the Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed. We

780
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: have core episodes in there on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On

781
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: Monday's we do listener mail, On Wednesday we do a

782
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 1: short form art of act or monster fact episode. And

783
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,839
Speaker 1: on Fridays we do Weird House Cinema. That's the time

784
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: to set aside most serious concerns and just talk about

785
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 1: a strange film. Um. We have a number of different

786
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 1: web presences, but if you you know, you look us

787
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 1: up on the I Heart Radio page, or you just

788
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 1: go to Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com um,

789
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 1: or if you just go to uh, I think the

790
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 1: Instagram page, um, any of the others, there's often gonna

791
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: be a link there for merchandise if you want to

792
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: check that out. That's just kind of a fun way

793
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 1: to celebrate the brand. If you want a shirt or

794
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: a like a mouse pad or a throw pillow with

795
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 1: our logo on it or some other various designs, go

796
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 1: check that out. We're we're gonna see about possibly adding

797
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 1: some more designs this year, so also, yeah, right into

798
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: us and let us know if there's any kind of

799
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 1: stuff to blow your mind merch that you think should exist. Likewise,

800
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: I don't know. If there's any merch from our show

801
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 1: that you think should not exist, let us know and

802
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: we'll make sure not to create that. Should we create

803
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 1: designer tumble weeds, which we we send to you by windmail.

804
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 1: Obviously not huge things. As always to our excellent audio

805
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 1: producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get

806
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 1: in touch with us with feedback on this episode or

807
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 1: any other to suggest topic for the future, just to

808
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 1: say hello, you can email us at contact at stuff

809
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your

810
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts

811
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: for my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app,

812
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listening to your favorite shows.