WEBVTT - How Gilligan Plays Into Bill Gross Neighbor Feud 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:05.360 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:09.440 It's certainly not a typical dispute between neighbors about a 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:13.080 fence or a dog crossing property lines. The feud between 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:17.360 billionaire Bill Grows and tech entrepreneur Mark Talfick involves a 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:21.400 private Kenny Loggin's concert, a TV shoot for the HBO 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:26.200 series Ballers, and a million dollar glass sculpture. Today, Grows 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:29.600 issued a public statement offering to end all hostilities with 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:33.960 his Laguna Beach neighbor, but Talfick rejected the settlement, calling 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:36.600 it a stunt to stem the tide of negative press. 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:40.519 Joining me is Bloomberg Legal reporter Patricia Hurtado, who's covering 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:45.080 the trial. Why is a neighbor's dispute in court and 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:48.120 for so long? Well, I think it has to too. 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:52.360 It's a combination of the bad feelings between these two neighbors, 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:57.960 provoked dueling, harassment complaints, and as a result, it's because 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:01.279 of the pandemic it's taking so long, But it does 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:05.160 seem to be taking extra long even under the pandemic circumstances. 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:08.959 So they're only doing one day of hearing, like a 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:13.319 brief four hours or so of hearing every Monday, and 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:16.680 then the judge in the case decided to sort of 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:20.399 increase the number of days she sees them. But because 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:24.200 of COVID, there have to take breaks, and there has 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:27.559 to be social distancing, and so everything seems to take 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:31.560 extra long under the circumstances. I imagine that these are 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:37.080 huge properties. Explain how the houses are situated. These aren't 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:40.440 like Greenwich, Connecticut or someplace on the Gold Coast in 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:45.639 um Long Island where you have massive property. These are 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:51.760 adjoining giant beachfront houses, and um they're not a beach shack. 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:56.320 These are very large. They're like thousands of square feet. 0:01:56.680 --> 0:02:00.320 They're built on a bluff overlooking and a cliff side 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:04.400 overlooking Laguna Beach, which used to be an artist colony 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.920 for you know, basically hippies and artists when I was 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:15.120 growing up, and it has transformed into this extremely desirable space. 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:19.040 So it's beautiful with lots of cliffs and beach front down. 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:23.440 So lots of wealthy, wealthy people have migrated there and 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:27.600 built their wonderful homes. But they're kind of cheek to jowel. 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:30.680 It's not as probably as tight as Malibu. If people 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:34.560 have ever seen those Malibu homes, but um, they're very 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:38.840 massive houses adjacent to each other. It seems that at 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:41.920 one point they were friendly. So tell us about the 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:47.440 Kenny Loggins private concert. Yeah, that was quite extraordinary. Having 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:50.240 grown up with Kenny Loggins, it was quite something to 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:52.880 hear that Phil Gross is so rich and they are 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:56.919 different from you and me, that he had a private 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:02.040 concert in his backyard, catered and everything with Kenny Loggins 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:06.360 for his girlfriend's fiftieth birthday party. So this isn't just 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:10.320 like honey, I'm taking you to Acapulco. This is like, honey, 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:12.920 I'm getting Kenny lock And to play in my backyard 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:18.000 for us. And apparently what also started with this was 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:23.680 a for her birthday, he installed a million dollar Dale 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:28.480 Chululi glass sculpture that is about twenty ft long and 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:31.919 fourteen ft deep, So it's it might be the size 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:35.640 of some studio apartment for New York, or let's just say, 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:38.680 and it's tall, and its glass, it's blown glass. And 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:41.200 they looked like lots of little like organ pipes made 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:44.560 out of glass with colors. And they were apparently very 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:48.920 good friends. There's two different, diametrically opposing stories. Of this 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:53.200 relationship and how it's soured. According to Mark Talfok, he's 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:57.920 a tech entrepreneur who built his multimillion dollar mansion first 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:02.320 on this cove. He built a beautiful dream house and 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:05.560 work from home. And he says that Bill Gross later 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:09.920 bought the place next door and started renovating and had 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:13.200 the sculpture and then had the Kenny Loggin's concert and 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:17.960 everything was great, and he let Kenny Loggin's crew run 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:22.839 their gigantic cables, passed his through his property to their trucks, 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:26.719 the generating trucks, and let them trample his plants, and 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:30.560 he never complained, but even thanks Bill Gross's girlfriend, and 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:32.960 they had a text he read saying, you know, thank 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:35.640 you for this, and she said you're very welcome smiley 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:39.680 face emoji. But Gross says the bad blood between them 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:43.880 started when to Fick had a TV show HBO program 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:47.000 called Ballers, which is about former NBA players, and they 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:50.520 used to fix house as the scene and they filmed 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:53.520 there for an entire week and jammed up the Coast 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:57.000 Highway with the film crew trucks and disrupted their laws. 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:00.719 The MINTO filed dueling Harassment Plan Games, which is what 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:04.159 the judge has been hearing of who harassed who, and 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:08.400 there's also they were speaking temporary restraining orders against each other. 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:10.719 Stay away from me, No, you stay away from me. 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:15.440 Bill Gross says that he has been stalked by to Pick, 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:19.479 who is tech obsessed, as a basic implications through the 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:23.720 testimony and the allegations of all these cameras everywhere, including 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.400 a camera that spied on him that was posted on 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:30.359 a palm tree, a real live palm tree. Here's a 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:32.840 camera on the palm tree which Bill Gross says death 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:37.040 Tosik isn't ogling him and his girlfriend when they dressed 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.800 antily in the pool. So to Fick actually complains to 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:46.359 the city about that million dollar glass sculpture, and then 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:50.680 he says that Bill Gross engaged in hours of sonic 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:56.839 abuse with music blaring from Gross's home, including the theme 0:05:56.960 --> 0:06:01.200 songs from shows like Gilligan's Island and Matt Yeah. So 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:04.839 Tofick called the police, and Laguna Beach police officers have 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:08.120 come to stay testified that yes, I did respond to 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:11.440 the scene. I was at the address of Tefick's home. 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:15.400 I arrived at eleven thirty. Yes, I did hear Gilligan's 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:18.800 Islands playing. So to Fix says he was told or 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:23.200 instructed or advised by the police to record these so 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:26.159 that we have heard over and over again multiple tapes, 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:30.880 and we have heard the sitcom introduction tunes, to theme songs, 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:36.560 to mash Green Acres, Gilligan's Island, and all kinds of stuff. 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:39.720 And then you also didn't heard hip hop, and we 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:43.159 heard Carlie Jepson's Call Me. So he made he made 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:46.560 these tapes and he recorded them including he says in 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:50.680 the background you could see Bill Gross and his girlfriend 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:54.760 Sash Shane and dancing on their balcony nearby. In said 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:58.520 he saw them giving him the finger. The officers had 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:01.039 a couple of times that the men music has been very, 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:03.400 very loud, and he said it was ear splitting. And 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:07.839 he says he has ultra sick windows because he wanted 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:10.480 to necessarily not have to hear the noise of the 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:13.400 Pacific Coast Highway, which is adjacent to the house. You 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:16.320 at the front of the house, and he has a 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:20.240 six cement walls, and yet the music was coming from 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:24.200 next door with the speakers from outdoors were pointed at 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:28.120 his house. So um to Fix says it all started 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:33.400 when he complained to the city of Laguna Beach about suddenly, 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:36.520 out of the blue, it looked like a giant soccer 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:41.360 net was put over the sculpture that's lit up at night. 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:45.080 So imagine that something looks like a Christmas display, or 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:48.200 you know, like a church organ made of glass that's 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:51.560 illuminated at night, and it's you know, blue and white 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:54.480 and all different colors, and then it's got a big 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:58.680 giant white net over it. Now to Fick complain, he 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:02.360 says about the lightly, not the sculpture per se. He 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:06.240 loves art, but that he complained about the unsightly netting. 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:10.400 Gross complained that the netting was fine. But what ends 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:15.200 up happening is to pick winds a city ordinance. He 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:18.480 has the city come out looks at the Grosses sculpture 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:23.400 and then find gross In failed to comply the zoning regulations. 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:26.120 When he has that installed. You can imagine someone might 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:28.600 be annoyed that if you sent a million dollars installing 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:31.560 art and then somehow it got broken and then you 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:34.520 put net over it. But suddenly the city says that's 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:38.800 not okay. And that's when Topi says the abuse started. 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:43.080 At one point, a police officer says she arrived one 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:47.920 morning and she heard very loud Spanish music and then 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:50.920 they asked her to be more clear, explaining what kind 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:53.520 of music, and she said she could hear very loud 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:59.480 Mariachi music plane instead of Gilligan's Island, and she said 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:03.480 it was louder than the Pacific Coast Highway traffic on 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:05.719 a Saturday. If you can imagine, you know, it's very 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:09.000 loud highway traffic as well. It was louder than the 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:14.040 ocean roar. So now is that the testimony is coming 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:18.600 on too. This week we're hearing more from the property manager, 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:24.000 who's a Latino. He is testified that he liked to 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:28.520 play what has been called Spanish music when he was working, 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:32.800 and that he was given a decibel meter reader by 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:36.280 the by Gross and Shorts to use it and to 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:39.960 test whether his music was playing was too loud for 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:43.319 anyone task to hear. And this would happen when Gross 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:47.240 and his girlfriend weren't at the property. So Gross has 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:50.560 been fined. Is he supposed to remove that? Well, it 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:54.199 seems like everything is kind of been hold, it sounded 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:56.720 from the testimony of the zoning guard it came to 0:09:56.760 --> 0:10:01.520 testify the sculpture wasn't necessary. Really the problem, what was 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:05.000 a problem may have been that the netting was not 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:09.520 in compliance with local ordinances its height, instance in distance, 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:13.199 you know, it's a size and its height and its location. 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:17.719 So he was supposed to remove it. Now, Bill Gross's 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:20.200 people have testified that it was only put up on 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:24.720 windy days to keep palm fronds from falling down and 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:29.439 possibly breaking the sculpture. So what this has been is 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:32.240 a judge has been asked to kind of she's kind 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:36.760 of trying to be um disciplinarian of two middle school 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:40.000 boys who can't get along, and she's been asked to 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:46.520 basically decide to dueling harassment allegations against each other. So 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:49.400 we've heard from to Fick. He spent multiple days on 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:51.960 the stand, and of course this is going in an 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:56.120 excruciatingly slow paced because of the breaks they've been taking 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:58.160 and they can only have a hearing one day a week. 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:02.200 And we expect to also here from Amy Schwartz, Bill 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:07.680 Gross's girlfriend, who's a former model and professional tennis player, 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:10.440 and then we're going to also hear from Bill Gross. 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:15.120 You right, that you can sense the animosity between these 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:18.679 two now, and that that has even been demonstrated in 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:22.360 the courtroom. Yeah, the first day, to Fick was supposed 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:25.240 to take the stand. You can imagine that they have 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:30.360 plastic shields around the witness, the judge, and the witness box, 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:34.840 and the courtroom seating is limited to the parties only, 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:39.560 and a film crew and one I guess, one media representative. 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:42.040 And I note the first day as as a trial 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:45.080 inside edition got the price seat of being the pool 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:49.000 or the only camera allowed in the courtroom. And so 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:54.280 to Fick takes the stand to testify. It the dueling harassment, hearing, 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:59.200 and suddenly you heard uh. And then someone said mr 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:01.960 Mr Gross, where are you going? And then Gross said 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:04.320 I can't hear him, and someone said it must be 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:08.440 because he's mumbling. And so they were arguing immediately, bickering, 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:11.280 and um, the judge was asking him not to speak 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:14.520 to each other. And then so Gross planted himself as 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:18.120 you can imagine, they're supposed to be socially distanced, and 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:22.120 he sat in the jury box. He said he was 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:24.400 hard of hearing and he couldn't hear. So he sat 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:27.600 in the seat number two, second seat next to the 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:32.520 witness box. In the jury box, there's no jury, of course, 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.720 and then Tofi complained that he didn't like Gross sitting 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:38.400 so close to him, so he that he should move. 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:41.240 And then there was the discussion back and forth where 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:43.840 could he sit? And then the Gross said he couldn't sit, 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:47.160 so maybe he would stand throughout the entire hearing. And 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:49.800 then he said his hearing aid was breaking because he 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:52.160 couldn't hear, and then should the judge asked him to 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:54.600 raise the volume in his hearing aid and suddenly hear that, 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:58.920 you know that very painful screeching noise when someone's hearing 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:02.719 aid has back play on a speaker. And then the 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:04.960 judge said, that was painful for all of us. We've 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:09.319 turned that down. Change seats, Mr Gross. So this has 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:13.000 been quite interesting to Mr Gross, of course, is a 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:18.800 very wealthy man, and he promises to bring basically his 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:22.040 side of the story includes to fix former neighbor, the 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:26.120 guy he bought the house from, and you know, all 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:29.679 kinds of experts to say that that anything that to 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:33.680 Fick recorded on his iPhone has been distorted because iPhones 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:38.880 are not giving an actual audio volume. It's kind of crazy. Well, 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.320 the amount of money that he must be spending on 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:45.840 legal fees and experts and investigators. It's probably off the charts. 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:51.079 But what is Gross's current complaint against to keep saying 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:54.439 that Mark to Fick has a stalker Essentially, as his 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:59.160 lawyer said, he's essentially a stalker uh and essentially engaging 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:04.760 in stalking practices that he has been following uh growth 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:09.880 and his girlfriend with his camera, that he's surreptitiously filming him. Uh. 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:12.440 That this is that he also alleges. So, you know, 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:15.679 we have the Laguna Beach Police come in and testify 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:19.160 about the noise complaints they constantly had to respond to, 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:25.520 and they basically affirm or confirm elements of topick story. 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:28.520 There's music, plane, it's late, it's late at night, and 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:33.400 their position it is very loud. He's complaining that Topick 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:36.440 is obsessed and has weaponized If he got the police 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:39.240 to testify to confirm his version of the story, it's 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:42.840 because he's weaponized the Laguna Beach Police Department for in 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:45.680 his favor. And I guess that one thing is that 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:49.960 we're all sitting and weathering under very bad, terrible news 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:53.680 about you know, tragic news about the pandemic. A lot 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.760 of people are kind of asking what's going on and 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:59.520 why are we in court? So, so the decision here 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:02.600 is up to the judge, no jury, it's a judicial hearing, 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:08.720 and and it's uh superior court, Orange County Superior Court. 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:12.720 She said she wants to finish this hearing by December fifteen, 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:17.920 and she's going to issue her own finding. Uh. So 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:22.160 she's being asked to consider dueling harassment claims. And then 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:25.800 there's also a slew of other lawsuits that have been 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:30.880 our corollary suits and complaints. They filed on a variety 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:34.720 of different method measures, you know, So she seems to 0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:39.720 be dealing specifically with the harassment claims. It's unclear. You know, 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:44.240 everybody's got deep pockets in this story. So this litigation 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:48.400 and all its corollary allegation, you know, allegations and complaints 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:53.200 will probably proceed into Thanks for being on the Bloomberg 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:58.720 Law Show. Pat. That's Patricia Hurtado, Bloomberg Legal reporter. President 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:02.040 Trump canceled the dot A program soon after he took office, 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:05.680 and data has been caught in legal battles ever since, 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:08.760 battles that went up to the Supreme Court. Now, a 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:12.200 Brooklyn federal judge has ruled that the Trump administration must 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:16.880 fully restore the so called Dreamer's program that protects undocumented 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:20.320 immigrants brought to the US as children. My guest is 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:24.480 Leon Fresco, a partner at Hollandon Knight. To set this up, 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:28.520 go back to June when the Supreme Court blocked Trump 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:32.840 from ending data. In June, what the Supreme Court did 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:36.640 was they issued a decision about the legality of the 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:41.480 process chosen by the Trump administration to refend the docup program. 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:45.280 And what they said was that the process that the 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:49.440 Trump administration used to resend the doctor program was unlawful 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:54.880 because it did not sufficiently explain the rationale for revoking 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:59.120 the program and did not sufficiently take into account different 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:03.080 interests were in place in terms of reliance interests and 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:06.440 in terms of winding down the program and the relevant 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:10.400 time friend for doing so, and so because the Trump 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:14.480 administration had failed to do that, the revocation of the 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:19.760 doctor program was arbitrary and capricia. So then the question 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:24.720 became what could the administration do next about the doctor program? 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:28.600 And that is when the Acting Secretary of Homeland Security, 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:33.160 Judd Wolf, issued a memorandum saying that what he would 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:36.320 do while he was weighing the future of the doctor 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:40.080 program was to allow people to extend their doctor sabus 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:44.520 by one year increment and not allow any new people 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:48.320 to apply for DOCTA. And so that was the current 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:52.959 state of affairs before this weekend when a judge ruled 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:56.640 that that memorandum was no longer valid. Tell us why 0:17:56.640 --> 0:18:00.240 the judge ruled that the memorandum wasn't valid. Know what 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:02.679 the judge in the New York case, which is a 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:05.359 case called the tie of the Dial versus Chad wolf 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:09.959 held was that Chad wolf who was the acting Secretary 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:15.919 of Homeland Security, isn't actually a validly appointed acting Secretary 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:19.800 of Homeland Security. Chad Wolfe was confirmed to be an 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:24.720 Assistant Secretary for Policy and was appointed via a series 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:30.320 of memoranda to be the acting Secretary of Homeland Security. 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:34.040 But what the judge ruled was that that series of 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:39.560 memoranda was clawed not just for Chad wolf but also 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:44.520 even for Kevin McAleenan who was the acting Secretary of 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:49.280 Homeland Security before Chad wolf And that the last actual 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:55.200 valid person who the Secretary of Homeland Security was Kirstin Nielsen, 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:59.760 who was confirmed by the Senate, and that she drafted 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:03.399 a memo about who goes back in the succession plan. 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:07.920 That memo was never followed, such that there is currently 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:13.440 no legitimate person that can be appointed as acting Secretary 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:15.960 of Homeland Security because there's no one who can actually 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:20.280 do that anymore because the process was fractured, but that 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:23.200 the only way to remedy this is for the Senate 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:27.520 to confirm a new Secretary of Homeland Security. The judge 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:31.119 also told the Department to put out a notice so 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:36.440 that new DOCTA applicants could start applying. Correct. So, one 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:39.520 of the main features of the decision of this District 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:42.760 Court judge was not only that the District Court judge 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:46.240 restored the doctor program to what it was in its 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:50.639 entirety under the Obama administration, but basically said, I don't 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:55.639 want any delay whatsoever in the implementation of this, because 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:58.639 his concern was that the administration would slow walk this 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:02.560 this and not a really implements the decision, and so 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:06.880 he wanted immediate reporting on the fact that applications would 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:10.720 be immediately accepted the beginning of December seven, and he 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:13.800 wanted statistics up without about how many people were applying, 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:16.399 how many people were being approved, how many people are 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:21.480 being rejected. D Jess says it's going to appeal the decision. 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:24.960 How long might that appeal take? Is there any way 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:28.119 the appeal could be finished before Trump leaves office. So 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:32.080 there's two issues, and both are important. The first issue 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:34.560 is whether they will be able to get us say 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:38.479 on the decision requiring the DOCCA applications to move forward. 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:40.960 If they don't, then they're gonna have to be accepting 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:44.600 these applications immediately or they will be subjects to consents 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:48.320 of court. But the larger issue is they need to 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:52.440 appeal this decision about whether Chad Wolfe is a legitimate 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:56.560 Secretary of Homeland Security because if he isn't, that doesn't 0:20:56.600 --> 0:21:01.280 just affect Dacca, that affects everything he's done as Secretary 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:05.440 of Homeland Security and potentially everything that Kevin McAleenan has 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:10.359 done as Secretary of Homeland Security. And so because of that, 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:13.560 they need to appeal this. And it's an interesting question 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:15.960 as to whether they will get a decision in time 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:20.840 before the end of the Trump administration. And if they 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:23.600 don't get such a decision in time from the Supreme 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:27.360 Court or at least from the Second Circuit, that tells them, hey, 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:31.560 it's okay, there was a legitimate appointment here. If they 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:34.480 don't fix that part, it will be very interesting to 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:38.240 see what a Biden administration does as to whether it 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:43.240 continues to try to defend other actions reached by Tad 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:48.240 Wolf or whether it's basically jettisons every single thing that 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:52.119 Chad Wolf did as Secretary of Homeland Security and maybe 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:56.480 even that Kevin McAleenan did as Secretary of Homeland Security 0:21:56.480 --> 0:21:59.640 and basically says the last two years were a wat 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:03.480 and nothing happened, and any policy that was there is invalid, 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:07.320 and we only returned to whatever the policies were at 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:11.240 the end of the first and Nielsen's security tenure. This 0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:14.840 is just one case. There are also challenges to data 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:19.399 in other states. Texas is challenging doc and a judge 0:22:19.480 --> 0:22:22.520 there could rule that it's illegal. What happens then if 0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:25.679 if a judge in Texas says DOCA is illegal, and 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:29.520 you have this decision by a Brooklyn judge. So that 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:35.360 is a separate and completely distinct, but equally important challenge, 0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:39.520 which is there has been this bucket of lawsuits, which 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:42.080 are the ones that reached the Supreme Court on the 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:45.920 manner in which DOCTA was revoked, and all of those 0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:50.159 have failed to reach the fundamental issue of whether DOCTA 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:53.679 was lawful to begin with or should be ended just 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:57.720 because it's an unlawful program. We have not had that adjudication, 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:01.760 and that's the litigation that happening in Texas right now. 0:23:02.359 --> 0:23:05.720 And the thought process is because the composition of the 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:10.280 Supreme Court has changed since the last DOCTA decision, where 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:14.359 Justice Ginberg has been replaced by Justice Cody Barrett, there 0:23:14.560 --> 0:23:18.280 is a significant possibility that if that case gets to 0:23:18.359 --> 0:23:23.040 the Supreme Court, the entire doctor program would be invalidated 0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:26.280 for the same reason that with President Obama tried a 0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:31.439 larger program called DAFA, which was for undocumented parents of 0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:36.280 US citizens. That program was invalidated because it was viewed 0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:41.320 as a procedurally incorrect because it did not use notice 0:23:41.359 --> 0:23:45.440 and comment rulemaking under the Administrative Procedure Act, but be 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:51.320 it also violated the Immigration and Nationality Act because there 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:55.800 are provisions in the Immigration and Nationality Act which require 0:23:56.520 --> 0:24:00.679 the Secretary of Homeland Security to place undocumented individuals in 0:24:00.720 --> 0:24:06.240 removal proceedings when they come across undocumented individuals, not to 0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:10.040 give them work permits, and so the idea is you 0:24:10.080 --> 0:24:13.280 could do that on an individual basis, but once you 0:24:13.359 --> 0:24:16.760 do it on a programmatic basis, you're violating the law. 0:24:17.240 --> 0:24:20.119 And so that's the two theories that are going to 0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:24.760 be litigated as the Biden administration seeks to restore doctors. 0:24:25.160 --> 0:24:28.840 That's right, Joe Biden has pledged to restore data within 0:24:28.960 --> 0:24:33.600 one hundred days of his taking office. But his restoration 0:24:33.680 --> 0:24:37.359 that would just mean an executive order. Correct, he would 0:24:37.359 --> 0:24:41.879 simply say that the Obama administration policy is restored in 0:24:41.920 --> 0:24:46.879 its entirety and applications begin in earnest. Again. Now, the 0:24:46.880 --> 0:24:51.119 only question is President Biden is getting a lot of 0:24:51.200 --> 0:24:55.280 pressure to change the date of eligibility because under the 0:24:55.359 --> 0:24:59.280 current DOCTA program, you had to be eligible because you 0:24:59.440 --> 0:25:03.160 arrived before two thousand and seventh. That's a long time ago. 0:25:03.520 --> 0:25:06.880 It's south thirteen years ago. He may get some pressure 0:25:06.960 --> 0:25:10.720 to move up that date. Uh. And if he does 0:25:10.840 --> 0:25:14.520 do that, that makes it easier to challenge in court 0:25:14.880 --> 0:25:17.560 because now there will be people who did not have 0:25:17.680 --> 0:25:21.600 quote unquote the reliance interests on DOCCA that the current 0:25:21.600 --> 0:25:26.320 people in the program has. It seems like data recipients 0:25:26.680 --> 0:25:31.240 have never really been able to feel safe because ever 0:25:31.320 --> 0:25:35.560 since the beginning, there have been legal problems with data 0:25:36.320 --> 0:25:40.080 that is absolutely correct. Since the beginning of DOCCA, there 0:25:40.080 --> 0:25:42.840 have been legal challenges. There was an illegal There was 0:25:42.880 --> 0:25:48.320 a legal challenge originally in the Fifth Circuit by ICE agents, 0:25:48.400 --> 0:25:51.840 and they're the legality of the program was not ruled 0:25:51.920 --> 0:25:55.280 upon because at that time, the Fifth Circuit held that 0:25:55.400 --> 0:25:58.879 the ICE agents did not have standing to challenge the 0:25:58.960 --> 0:26:02.720 DOCTA programs. There was never a ruling on that. But 0:26:03.480 --> 0:26:07.720 what happened after the Obama administration expanded the doctor program 0:26:07.800 --> 0:26:12.440 to become DAFA to include parents of U. S citizens, 0:26:12.600 --> 0:26:18.000 then the state attorney general's food as opposed to ICE agents, 0:26:18.720 --> 0:26:23.320 And because the state attorney generals food, then the courts 0:26:23.440 --> 0:26:27.320