1
00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:08,200
Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic and this is next Question today.

2
00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:11,399
Speaker 1: I'm really excited to be sitting down with my friend

3
00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,400
Speaker 1: Don Lemon to talk about his new book. It's called

4
00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,640
Speaker 1: This Is the Fire. I'm really glad he wrote it.

5
00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,119
Speaker 1: I learned a lot. It's really a blend of his

6
00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,040
Speaker 1: own life experiences with a look back at both our

7
00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:28,400
Speaker 1: countries problematic history as well as the racial reckoning we've

8
00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,479
Speaker 1: all witnessed over the past year. There was so much

9
00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,279
Speaker 1: to talk about, so let's just get right to it.

10
00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,479
Speaker 1: I'm really excited about this conversation. And you know, normally

11
00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,239
Speaker 1: I would never ask an author, why did you want

12
00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,560
Speaker 1: to write this book? But for you, I think it's

13
00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:52,320
Speaker 1: so deeply personal. It's also complex, and I don't think

14
00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:54,400
Speaker 1: it's a dumb question. So I'm going to start with that,

15
00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,120
Speaker 1: why this book? And why? Now? Okay, two things. There

16
00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:01,200
Speaker 1: are no dumb question, and that's we have we have

17
00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,120
Speaker 1: to allow each other grace. There are no dumb questions.

18
00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,240
Speaker 1: And um, you can only be offended but to the

19
00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:09,760
Speaker 1: extent that your own ego allows you to be offended.

20
00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:11,800
Speaker 1: So we have to get out of our ego. So

21
00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:13,240
Speaker 1: why did I do it? I did it? Because I

22
00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,679
Speaker 1: thought it was important. I thought that someone like me, Katie,

23
00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:17,840
Speaker 1: who is as you know, once you get to a

24
00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:21,400
Speaker 1: certain position in this business, it's rarefied air. Not many

25
00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,240
Speaker 1: people have these opportunities in the whole world to be

26
00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:25,839
Speaker 1: able to speak to an audience. I get to speak

27
00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,840
Speaker 1: to an international audience. So I'm at the matrix of

28
00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,280
Speaker 1: pretty much every weeknight on television for two hours, every

29
00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,040
Speaker 1: single thing that goes on in this country that that

30
00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,039
Speaker 1: that we're talking about. And race has been a very

31
00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,000
Speaker 1: big issue, as you know. During the Trump administration, you

32
00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,240
Speaker 1: saw all the people who are capitalizing on book deals

33
00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,920
Speaker 1: and writing books. And I've got so many requests every

34
00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:48,080
Speaker 1: time the President would tweet about me, the former president,

35
00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,320
Speaker 1: write a book, do something right, you know, do notes

36
00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:52,200
Speaker 1: from a journalist who do that? And I'm like, I'm

37
00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,720
Speaker 1: not doing that. I don't want to do that. So

38
00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,280
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I'd written a book and I said,

39
00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,160
Speaker 1: I'm never gonna do it again. It's so hard, know

40
00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,800
Speaker 1: because especially the promotion. My dog is here whining for attention. Sorry,

41
00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,080
Speaker 1: So this is you know, doing stuff at home, and

42
00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,440
Speaker 1: we're in the middle of a pandemic. So um. Charlotte

43
00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,400
Speaker 1: Ville happened, and I was like, oh my gosh, this

44
00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:18,040
Speaker 1: guy is making excuses for racists. And then um Ahmad

45
00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,440
Speaker 1: Abrey happened in Georgia when shot with a shotgun, killed

46
00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,639
Speaker 1: in the middle of a street jogging. Then Briana Taylor happened,

47
00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,720
Speaker 1: and then George Floyd happened. And we were all sitting

48
00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,680
Speaker 1: at home, vulnerable on our couches, you know, stuck in

49
00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,560
Speaker 1: our homes, not knowing if we were gonna get COVID,

50
00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:35,200
Speaker 1: if our loved ones were gonna get COVID. Nothing. We

51
00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:36,640
Speaker 1: didn't know if the world was going to be the

52
00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,400
Speaker 1: same in the next moment. And so um we all

53
00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:42,880
Speaker 1: saw it happened on our devices, and there was no

54
00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,680
Speaker 1: denying the experience that some of our fellow countrymen have

55
00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,400
Speaker 1: at the hands of police and also in our society

56
00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,680
Speaker 1: when it comes to discrimination. And I said, I got

57
00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,440
Speaker 1: to say something because people like you, not that you

58
00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:00,240
Speaker 1: call me, but certainly we had these conversations. Um A

59
00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,440
Speaker 1: lot of people were calling and emailing and rioting and

60
00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:07,720
Speaker 1: texting Okay Barkley and saying help me, don I love you.

61
00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,040
Speaker 1: I feel like I haven't been you know, a good

62
00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,919
Speaker 1: ally to my friends. You my black friends. I don't

63
00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:15,920
Speaker 1: want my kids to grow up in a country like this,

64
00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,360
Speaker 1: where a man can be killed in broad daylight like

65
00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,359
Speaker 1: this by the hands of the police officer. I don't

66
00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,040
Speaker 1: have the vocabulary to be able to to speak to

67
00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,320
Speaker 1: my kids or to my friends. I don't have the tools.

68
00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,280
Speaker 1: What what do I do? And after giving some advice

69
00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:33,639
Speaker 1: telling people to listen, Um, I just I decided I'm

70
00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:37,760
Speaker 1: going to write this book. And I was um, James

71
00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,080
Speaker 1: Baldwin had had a profound impact on my life as

72
00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,400
Speaker 1: a young man. He's a gay black author who was

73
00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:48,040
Speaker 1: just an amazing He is my literary hero and I

74
00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:53,480
Speaker 1: call him a revolutionary a word smith revolutionary. And Um,

75
00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,360
Speaker 1: I was away from my family. I was feeling guilty

76
00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,200
Speaker 1: about the world that I had at somewhat helped shape

77
00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,120
Speaker 1: that I was. That I was handing off to my

78
00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,560
Speaker 1: great nephews that they were inheriting, and I said, the

79
00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,040
Speaker 1: fire next time has had the most impact on my life.

80
00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to start by telling my nephew how I

81
00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,680
Speaker 1: feel about him. That I hope he's able to love

82
00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,279
Speaker 1: himself sooner than I was able to love myself, to

83
00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,359
Speaker 1: accept and embrace and love his beautiful blackness. With a

84
00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:22,240
Speaker 1: grace and an ease that I was not able to

85
00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,360
Speaker 1: as a young man. Um and you know I couldn't.

86
00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:26,960
Speaker 1: My family comes to visit me in the summer, and

87
00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:28,640
Speaker 1: I think you you met them at the at theater

88
00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,440
Speaker 1: I met I met your sweet mom my mom. I

89
00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,040
Speaker 1: met her in another party and it was so fun. Yeah,

90
00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,640
Speaker 1: and she was so so dear. But anyway, go ahead,

91
00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:41,640
Speaker 1: usually come to visit me. And that's how I showed

92
00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:43,680
Speaker 1: my love spending time with him and with you, as

93
00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:45,640
Speaker 1: you know with daughters thirteen and fourtune. You know, if

94
00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:47,400
Speaker 1: you called him up and say, you know his name is,

95
00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:49,680
Speaker 1: I love you so much. I wish I could be

96
00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:50,919
Speaker 1: with you. I just want to hug you, he'd be

97
00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,279
Speaker 1: like uncle Don grows right. I just want to go

98
00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,040
Speaker 1: back to playing my video game. And so I decided

99
00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,560
Speaker 1: to sit down and put pen to paper and write

100
00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:01,880
Speaker 1: this letter to him, as James Baldwin had written to

101
00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,279
Speaker 1: his nephew at the beginning of The Fire Next Time.

102
00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:06,680
Speaker 1: And that's how it starts. Can you read us a

103
00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,279
Speaker 1: passage from the letter to your nephew, because I think

104
00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:15,000
Speaker 1: that would be a wonderful thing for people to hear. Yes,

105
00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:18,279
Speaker 1: I have it right here, and I just realized Barkley

106
00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:23,360
Speaker 1: is smelling my cookie. He's right here trying to get

107
00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,360
Speaker 1: onto the table where I have my computer. Prologue A

108
00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:32,479
Speaker 1: letter to my nephew, May Dear Trishad. Today I heard

109
00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:34,880
Speaker 1: a dying man call out to his mama, and I

110
00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,040
Speaker 1: wept for the world that will soon belong to you.

111
00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:39,839
Speaker 1: I know what comes next as surely as I know.

112
00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,280
Speaker 1: The Mississippi rolls down to the sea, the weeping passes,

113
00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,240
Speaker 1: the rage takes hold, the rage burns out, the blame begins.

114
00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,200
Speaker 1: The blame bounces back and forth, and promises are made,

115
00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:54,359
Speaker 1: and the promises with her, and complacency returns, and the

116
00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,640
Speaker 1: complacency stays. It stagnates, like a lullaby on auto played,

117
00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,719
Speaker 1: until another man dies based down another street and another city,

118
00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,400
Speaker 1: and the weeping begins again. I was a baby boy

119
00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,800
Speaker 1: in our family until thirteen years ago when you came

120
00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,159
Speaker 1: along and made a grandmother mother out of my big

121
00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,840
Speaker 1: sister Lisa. Your grandmother helped raise me, and I helped

122
00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,520
Speaker 1: raise your mother, so when you were born, it all

123
00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,560
Speaker 1: came full circle. You look like me. We share the

124
00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,200
Speaker 1: same forehead, nose, and well articulated armbones. We share the

125
00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,000
Speaker 1: same skin, a dark russet color rich with history. Yours

126
00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,640
Speaker 1: is darker than mine in winter, but in the summertime,

127
00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,600
Speaker 1: I gravitate in your direction. So that's when I go

128
00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,440
Speaker 1: into how beautiful he made me. When I saw him

129
00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,039
Speaker 1: as a kid and getting to know him as a

130
00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,119
Speaker 1: young man, he made me feel beautiful about myself because

131
00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,200
Speaker 1: he was so beautiful. He is such a beautiful person.

132
00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,240
Speaker 1: And I look at him and I say to him,

133
00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,760
Speaker 1: and all those things that my sister and parents tried

134
00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,200
Speaker 1: to teach me as a young person about how beautiful

135
00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,880
Speaker 1: I was as a black kid. I never believed it

136
00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,840
Speaker 1: until I laid eyes on my great my great nephew.

137
00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,920
Speaker 1: And so why didn't you believe it? Why didn't you

138
00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,280
Speaker 1: believe it? I didn't believe it, Katie, because the media.

139
00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:11,200
Speaker 1: I never saw myself reflected back in television commercials or

140
00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,280
Speaker 1: in children's TV shows. Except for the rare you know,

141
00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,640
Speaker 1: hey hey, hey on, it's fat Albert for the rare

142
00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:24,280
Speaker 1: or the rare you know Jackson five cartoon. Everything else

143
00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,120
Speaker 1: looked like other people than me. All the images and

144
00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,840
Speaker 1: media never looked like me, never said that I was beautiful.

145
00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:31,680
Speaker 1: I lived in the South, I grew up. Either you

146
00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:33,840
Speaker 1: had there was a brown paper black bag test if

147
00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,000
Speaker 1: you were lighter or darker. There was colorism in the

148
00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,120
Speaker 1: black community. You had to have a certain texture air,

149
00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,480
Speaker 1: and it's just such confusing. And then I was hiding

150
00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,880
Speaker 1: the secret that I was gay, So it was it

151
00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,560
Speaker 1: was not easy as a kid. And then on top

152
00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,880
Speaker 1: of that, I was hiding a secret about a neighbor,

153
00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,200
Speaker 1: an older kid, who was, you know, molesting me, doing

154
00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,280
Speaker 1: things that he shouldn't do to me. And so it

155
00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:02,120
Speaker 1: was it wasn't I. I had this beautiful dreamlike childhood

156
00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,160
Speaker 1: in the southern town, but I had all these little

157
00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:12,080
Speaker 1: secrets that that complicated my my experience. You know, I

158
00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:16,360
Speaker 1: wondered too. You were talking about all the Ahmad Aubrey

159
00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:21,120
Speaker 1: and Brianna Taylor and of course George Floyd, and you

160
00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:27,080
Speaker 1: have the overlay of COVID disproportionately affecting people of color.

161
00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:32,360
Speaker 1: Was that the the alchemy that that made this situation

162
00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:38,840
Speaker 1: so beautifully combustible and and and so so appropriately combustible,

163
00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,200
Speaker 1: because it seems to me that the stars were aligned

164
00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:47,640
Speaker 1: to break it wide open. Did you feel that way, Yeah,

165
00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,560
Speaker 1: but I told that way, of course, COVID, Yes, covid

166
00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:54,520
Speaker 1: was you know this just as you said, it was

167
00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,160
Speaker 1: sort of the stars were aligned, but it was in

168
00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,400
Speaker 1: an awful way, right, Um, It led us here, but

169
00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,080
Speaker 1: it was an awful and if we you know, if

170
00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,360
Speaker 1: we could choose not to have that experience, we would

171
00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,560
Speaker 1: choose that. But it led us to where we are now. Katie,

172
00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:09,840
Speaker 1: I didn't know. I thought we were gonna be at

173
00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,640
Speaker 1: home for two weeks, right, like, Okay, we'll be at home.

174
00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,559
Speaker 1: And then the economy started to go off a cliff.

175
00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,240
Speaker 1: People started to get really sick. Um, we couldn't leave

176
00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:21,920
Speaker 1: our homes. Everyone's like, what are we gonna do? How

177
00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:23,800
Speaker 1: are we gonna get food? We're gonna order in? Am

178
00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:29,760
Speaker 1: I gonna do this? And everyone was watching the news

179
00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:31,400
Speaker 1: to trying to figure out what was happening with this

180
00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:35,760
Speaker 1: pandemic and then this man, this video of this man

181
00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:38,920
Speaker 1: dying comes out and we can't take our eyes off

182
00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,640
Speaker 1: of it because it's so horrendous, and I think that

183
00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:43,600
Speaker 1: if we don't, I don't know if it would have

184
00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:45,120
Speaker 1: had the same impact. I think it would have had

185
00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,720
Speaker 1: an impact, but probably not as significant if we weren't

186
00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,800
Speaker 1: all just trapped in our houses being forced to watch

187
00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,000
Speaker 1: the news, trying to figure out what was happening, not

188
00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,160
Speaker 1: just from day to day, but from moment to moment.

189
00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:00,320
Speaker 1: That's why I think it had such a huge in fact,

190
00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,360
Speaker 1: and because we were all open and vulnerable, we all

191
00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:08,280
Speaker 1: felt I think a UM a very similar degree of

192
00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,839
Speaker 1: humanity and vulnerability. I don't know where this is going.

193
00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,080
Speaker 1: I'm not so sure about my future. Maybe all this

194
00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:20,559
Speaker 1: money I have doesn't save me from this horrible thing

195
00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:22,760
Speaker 1: that could happen to me. And so it was it

196
00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,960
Speaker 1: sort of, it was like it was like the a

197
00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,720
Speaker 1: great equalizer for all of us to be able to

198
00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:33,160
Speaker 1: feel and experience each other's shared humanity. But I also

199
00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:37,640
Speaker 1: feel like it must be a very singular experience for

200
00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:42,559
Speaker 1: a Black American, especially a Black American man, to witness

201
00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,560
Speaker 1: the murder of George Floyd. And I'm curious down the

202
00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,640
Speaker 1: first time you saw that video, the first time you

203
00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:57,800
Speaker 1: watched the seconds go by and that man casually with

204
00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:04,640
Speaker 1: his hand in his pocket, basically suffocating another human being.

205
00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,920
Speaker 1: I take me back to that first time, but when

206
00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,680
Speaker 1: you probably couldn't sadly take your eyes off of it either,

207
00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:15,640
Speaker 1: I couldn't take my eyes off of it, And I

208
00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:20,600
Speaker 1: just remember um, I kept thinking he was robbing him.

209
00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:25,040
Speaker 1: Here was a human being right robbing UM, a child

210
00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:29,559
Speaker 1: of God, of his um natural of his God given

211
00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,040
Speaker 1: right to be able to breathe. That's what I thought.

212
00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,679
Speaker 1: And UM, you know, people talk about, you know, the

213
00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:38,959
Speaker 1: death penalty and all of that, and whether we should

214
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,679
Speaker 1: have control over another person's life or death or existence,

215
00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:44,800
Speaker 1: and here was a person who was exhibiting that in

216
00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,720
Speaker 1: real time for us. But I remember seeing the video

217
00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,600
Speaker 1: and I think I was UM. I was. I was

218
00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,560
Speaker 1: in the office actually by myself, which was weird because

219
00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,240
Speaker 1: we were all in quarantine and I was UM one

220
00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,680
Speaker 1: of the only anchors going into the office US. And

221
00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:02,480
Speaker 1: even though there was no one out in my pod,

222
00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:04,719
Speaker 1: I was just sort of looking around. I had to

223
00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,640
Speaker 1: close the door in my office and I just cried, UM,

224
00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,160
Speaker 1: and I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it, but

225
00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:17,920
Speaker 1: I couldn't that for me. I saw my nephews, I

226
00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,480
Speaker 1: saw my uncle's, I saw my cousins, I saw my dad,

227
00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:22,839
Speaker 1: I saw people I saw there before the grace of

228
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:27,280
Speaker 1: God go I UM, And I just had to cry.

229
00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,120
Speaker 1: And I knew immediately that the character assassination would start.

230
00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:32,480
Speaker 1: You know this sort of idea that we have of

231
00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,000
Speaker 1: the perfect victim. Well, he must have been doing something,

232
00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,040
Speaker 1: was he on drugs, he didn't comply, and all these

233
00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,760
Speaker 1: things that that go along with And I always say,

234
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,839
Speaker 1: what police stop is positive. Even when I'm getting pulled

235
00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,040
Speaker 1: over for a traffic ticket. I know he's not gonna

236
00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:47,680
Speaker 1: say I want to write you a ticket because you

237
00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,199
Speaker 1: were going the speed limit, Mr Lemon, and we're gonna

238
00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,000
Speaker 1: give you fifty dollars for obeying the law. No encounter

239
00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:56,400
Speaker 1: with the police officers like that. If they pull you over,

240
00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:00,560
Speaker 1: it flashing lights happened to you know, show up behind

241
00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:06,199
Speaker 1: Katie Curic's car. I mean, I think you have um

242
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,240
Speaker 1: the you have the compidence that you're gonna survive it.

243
00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,680
Speaker 1: But it's not a happy experience. You're not looking forward

244
00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,160
Speaker 1: to having an encounter with a police officers never positive.

245
00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,199
Speaker 1: So this and and in some way you're the coppice

246
00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,679
Speaker 1: thinking that you're breaking the rule. So most of our

247
00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:24,839
Speaker 1: encounters with police officers are not positive experiences. They think

248
00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,400
Speaker 1: that we're doing something wrong. So I'm you know, I

249
00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:29,960
Speaker 1: just you know, I knew that that would come. But

250
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:37,920
Speaker 1: my initial experience was sadness, anger, and depression. It was

251
00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,040
Speaker 1: contributing quite frankly, if you want to really want to

252
00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:41,760
Speaker 1: talk about this, Katie Kirk, which I know you do,

253
00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,760
Speaker 1: it was contributing to the depression that I was already

254
00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,320
Speaker 1: dealing with from um, not only from covering Trump for

255
00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,680
Speaker 1: four years or however long it had been. And then

256
00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:56,000
Speaker 1: that came along with being in quarantine, having my friends

257
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,880
Speaker 1: supper COVID, not being able to see my family, and

258
00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,160
Speaker 1: just the general may is it just made it that

259
00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,640
Speaker 1: deeper and worse. I covered all these stories down, you did,

260
00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:09,520
Speaker 1: Trayvon Martin, Jordan Davis who was murdered because the music

261
00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:11,840
Speaker 1: in his car was played too loud when he was

262
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,720
Speaker 1: with a group of friends. And you know, these these

263
00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,880
Speaker 1: sporadic incidents that made their way into the national news.

264
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,600
Speaker 1: Who knows how many never made their way to the

265
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:28,840
Speaker 1: national news. But it was George Floyd that that really

266
00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:35,240
Speaker 1: galvanized the Black Lives Matter movement as as never before,

267
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,840
Speaker 1: as no one else really had much to the shepran.

268
00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,320
Speaker 1: I'm sure of a lot of activists who were paying

269
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:46,320
Speaker 1: attention to this very early on. And and and what

270
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,040
Speaker 1: was it about about the George Floyd murder? And I

271
00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:56,000
Speaker 1: think also Ahmad Aubrey and Brianna Taylor. And do you

272
00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,800
Speaker 1: think the pandemic, as you were saying earlier, created this

273
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:06,280
Speaker 1: this recognition and this activism that just for whatever reason

274
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,960
Speaker 1: was not ignited, uh, as it you know, should have

275
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:16,000
Speaker 1: been earlier. Well, I think it's hard for people to

276
00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,440
Speaker 1: um to believe things. And then you know, I know

277
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,560
Speaker 1: some people are grown at the idea or when people

278
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,800
Speaker 1: say that's privilege, But privilege really is when you don't

279
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,040
Speaker 1: have to think about it because it doesn't happen to you.

280
00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,000
Speaker 1: And listen, I to a certain degree, even though I

281
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,560
Speaker 1: am a person of color, I have a male privilege

282
00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:36,960
Speaker 1: in the society that I don't have to be concerned

283
00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:40,240
Speaker 1: about um things if I don't want to that women

284
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:41,920
Speaker 1: have to deal with, Right, I can turn a blind

285
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:43,520
Speaker 1: eye to them because they just don't happen to me.

286
00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,200
Speaker 1: Or you may have an an economic privilege, right because

287
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,360
Speaker 1: and I do have an economic privilege in the society

288
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,000
Speaker 1: that that many people of color don't. And actually many

289
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,680
Speaker 1: people not of color don't have the same economic privilege.

290
00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,280
Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, and privilege comes in many forms. I

291
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,120
Speaker 1: know people grown at that, but you don't have to

292
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:07,480
Speaker 1: think about it, right, You could not avoid George Floyd Katie.

293
00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,080
Speaker 1: And no matter how many times you saw the video,

294
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,000
Speaker 1: even if you see it today, if someone says, sit

295
00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,200
Speaker 1: down and watch this video, either you go I can't

296
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:18,840
Speaker 1: watch any more of it, or come on, let's be honest,

297
00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,040
Speaker 1: you scream like, okay, enough, it's been a minute. You

298
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:23,960
Speaker 1: can take your knee up the guy's neck. Now, come on,

299
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,760
Speaker 1: stop it like you scream at this video as if

300
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,440
Speaker 1: it's real, even though you know the outcome, and you're

301
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,240
Speaker 1: sitting there going, oh my god, I cannot believe this.

302
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:36,040
Speaker 1: I can't believe it. Can you take the guy? He's

303
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,960
Speaker 1: not armed, he's you know, did he do something that

304
00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,120
Speaker 1: wrong that you have to snuff the life out of him?

305
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:46,520
Speaker 1: Like just stop? And you people they're screaming stop, stop stopping.

306
00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,640
Speaker 1: Everyone is feeling the same thing, and they're telling him

307
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,880
Speaker 1: you're going to kill him. Stop. And two, I just

308
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,440
Speaker 1: I just think that it's it's it's just so relatable

309
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,600
Speaker 1: to everyone, and you couldn't it nor because you had to.

310
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,320
Speaker 1: What else were we doing? We had nothing quite frankly,

311
00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:08,359
Speaker 1: we had nothing else to do but pay attention. And

312
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,120
Speaker 1: so um yeah, that's why I think. I just think

313
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,800
Speaker 1: that that it was. The video was so profound, it

314
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,119
Speaker 1: happened for such a long time. We didn't see Briana Taylor.

315
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,120
Speaker 1: We heard about it the part of the video with

316
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,560
Speaker 1: um Ahmad Aubrey. Initially, I think we saw the shotgun

317
00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:26,880
Speaker 1: blast maybe once or twice, and then the news media

318
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,399
Speaker 1: decided we're not going to show it. Will show it

319
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:31,359
Speaker 1: up until the point of the blast, and then we'll stop.

320
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,800
Speaker 1: George Floyd. We played all eight minutes and forty six

321
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,640
Speaker 1: seconds of it because it was so egregious and so horrific,

322
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,639
Speaker 1: and um I really think that that was key that

323
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,399
Speaker 1: people it was. It was so in your face, and

324
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:49,080
Speaker 1: it was just so undeniable. Even the people who don't

325
00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,800
Speaker 1: want to believe that those types of interactions happened with police,

326
00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,480
Speaker 1: I had to believe it because it was there. Now

327
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,040
Speaker 1: they're making excuses for it in the trial, like there

328
00:17:58,040 --> 00:17:59,840
Speaker 1: were these things that you didn't see and what the

329
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,360
Speaker 1: media is not telling you about George Floyd and blah

330
00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:04,920
Speaker 1: blah blah. So now that's the whole political thing. That's

331
00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,240
Speaker 1: a spin. But we know what we saw. Why do

332
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,960
Speaker 1: you think the world almost immediately or in the last

333
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,560
Speaker 1: couple of years, done the country divided itself into Black

334
00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:22,399
Speaker 1: Lives Matter and Blue Lives Matter or all lives matter. Okay,

335
00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,520
Speaker 1: So the whole idea of the book is if you

336
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:28,040
Speaker 1: if you know, UM is about truth, and it's about

337
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,080
Speaker 1: That's why I give some history lessons, right, And it's

338
00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,919
Speaker 1: about talking about contributions of of Black Americans or African

339
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,640
Speaker 1: Americans to the country, and that many people were left out, right.

340
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:39,119
Speaker 1: I think my people were left out a lot of

341
00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:41,639
Speaker 1: the history we learned. But we learned charge Washington Carver

342
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,120
Speaker 1: and the peanuts and Eli Whitney and the cotton gin

343
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,160
Speaker 1: or whatever, but we don't learn that there were Africans

344
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,639
Speaker 1: on the continent helping to build a country before the

345
00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,440
Speaker 1: Mayflower even showed up, right, So we don't learn about

346
00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:59,080
Speaker 1: those things. So I think that UM, but that we

347
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,600
Speaker 1: live in two different of worlds and that it was

348
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,640
Speaker 1: meant that way. It was meant for us to live

349
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,480
Speaker 1: in two different worlds. It was meant for as you said,

350
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,600
Speaker 1: it's the environment that we've we've grown up in. And

351
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,520
Speaker 1: I say, if you if you've come out of American soil,

352
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,679
Speaker 1: how could you not the extreme People will think it's

353
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,080
Speaker 1: extreme is be racist or have a racial blind spot.

354
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,280
Speaker 1: Or not think that, UM and not have issues when

355
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,639
Speaker 1: it comes to white supremacy, because that has that is

356
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,480
Speaker 1: what has been presented to you. Columbus discovered America, you know, right,

357
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,800
Speaker 1: when we all know what. Columbus didn't discover America. That's

358
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,200
Speaker 1: offensive to Native Americans. If now, if you say Europeans

359
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,920
Speaker 1: and Columbus conquered America, you're absolutely right. And what is

360
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:42,800
Speaker 1: wrong with saying that. Nothing. That's the true history of

361
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,200
Speaker 1: this country, right, so it should not be whitewashed. So

362
00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,760
Speaker 1: we have two different we live in two different worlds.

363
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,040
Speaker 1: I think most African Americans and many African Americans no,

364
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,560
Speaker 1: and I don't think it was taught in the history book.

365
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,280
Speaker 1: Maybe White America doesn't know that the history of policing

366
00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:02,000
Speaker 1: comes from when it really slavery, slave catching, making sure

367
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,960
Speaker 1: that slaves don't leave the plantation, UM, and that they

368
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,359
Speaker 1: don't you know, they don't run away from slavery. Fast

369
00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:15,240
Speaker 1: forward to now, many African Americans, especially in urban areas, UM,

370
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,439
Speaker 1: I feel like they are occupied. The police officers are

371
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:23,280
Speaker 1: the occupiers rather than the peace officers in their community.

372
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:28,160
Speaker 1: And so where you, as a white American, will look

373
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,480
Speaker 1: upon a police officer as having your your best interests

374
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,320
Speaker 1: in looking out for you, and it's trying to protect you.

375
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,760
Speaker 1: African Americans look at police officers, says sort of, what

376
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:40,800
Speaker 1: are they going to do to me or going to

377
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,240
Speaker 1: you understand what I'm saying. So I think that's a

378
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,880
Speaker 1: completely different relationships. So just let me finish your thing here.

379
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,639
Speaker 1: So that's how we So when we say when people

380
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:55,880
Speaker 1: say black lives matter, basically what they're saying is you've

381
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,120
Speaker 1: heard is black lives matter too, not that only black

382
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,320
Speaker 1: lives matter, but that you should have the same respect

383
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,479
Speaker 1: for black lives as you have for white lives in

384
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:08,359
Speaker 1: this society. And UM, by saying, well, blue lives matter,

385
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:12,840
Speaker 1: all lives matter, it is a denial of um and

386
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,400
Speaker 1: a lack of prioritizing what the what the point is

387
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 1: in this particular moment, and that is that we have

388
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 1: to protect and we have to understand that black lives

389
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,320
Speaker 1: in this society matter as much as any other life.

390
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,640
Speaker 1: But the point is not all lives matter. Everybody gets

391
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,400
Speaker 1: all lives matter. White lives matter in this country and

392
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,960
Speaker 1: have been prioritized over black lives forever. Of course, blue

393
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,760
Speaker 1: lives matter, but that's not the point of this. The

394
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,359
Speaker 1: point of this is to draw awareness to the plight

395
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 1: and the attention of black people. So why we've divided

396
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 1: in that, it's just because we have a complete have

397
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 1: two different receptions of America. Does that see? Do you

398
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,679
Speaker 1: understand that? Oh? Completely? Oh, I completely do. And by

399
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,920
Speaker 1: the way, I'm not one of those people who respond

400
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,960
Speaker 1: to black lives matter with either blue lives matter or

401
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,959
Speaker 1: all lives matter. But it seems that you know, as

402
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 1: as so much of society, that these two opposing forces

403
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,439
Speaker 1: immediately kind of rise up and they don't have to

404
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,399
Speaker 1: be opposing. That's that's my point. Yeah, they don't have

405
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 1: to be opposing. They can you can. You can think

406
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 1: that blue lives matter, all lives matter, and Black lives

407
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 1: matter all at the same time. People have a hard

408
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 1: time I think, recognizing that though, don't you. I feel

409
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 1: like we live in a world where people are on

410
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: one side or another and that's one of the big problems. Well,

411
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 1: that's right, and that's a whole like listen, um, you

412
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 1: have been very involved in colon cancer, right, so if

413
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 1: you know, if someone said what you said, what you said, um,

414
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:56,439
Speaker 1: you know, uh, colon awareness matters, and someone said no,

415
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 1: Katie Aids awareness matters and you're like, yes, it does,

416
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 1: but I'm not talking about AIDS awareness, and it's all.

417
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,119
Speaker 1: AIDS awareness is very, very important, and there are people

418
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 1: who it's their issue, but my issue is colon awareness

419
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 1: and colon health and I want to draw attention to that.

420
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 1: And there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. There's you know,

421
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 1: there's um, there's a degree of pride, and there's something

422
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,159
Speaker 1: great about what the awareness that you're bringing to to

423
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 1: colon health and that it's not that you're shunning or

424
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 1: saying that you know AIDS awareness is bad. Is it

425
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,399
Speaker 1: that you're focused on colon help? This is that simple.

426
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 1: When we come back, Don shares what his sister Lisa's

427
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 1: untimely death taught him about the importance of grace. Let's

428
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,920
Speaker 1: talk a little bit Don about how deeply personal your

429
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: book is, because you talk a lot about your family,

430
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,680
Speaker 1: and they talked very movingly about your grandmother, in particular,

431
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 1: who you you pronounced mommy, mommy, mommy, and you right,

432
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: I know that you lived with her when you were

433
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:16,679
Speaker 1: a little boy. She had a fifth grade education, You

434
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 1: tried to help her learn to read, and um, talk

435
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: to us about how this shaped you personally but also

436
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 1: your view of the world. This always gets me. Um.

437
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: So I was growing up and my grandmother was my life.

438
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 1: I loved her, so, I mean just loved her. And

439
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 1: we would the funny thing. We would be together and

440
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 1: they would wonder why was this white lady with this

441
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 1: black kid when, you know, because they didn't my grandmother

442
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,199
Speaker 1: as they say, mulatto, right, she came from mixed parents

443
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 1: and that was back in the day. So um, but

444
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 1: she was we were always together, were thickest, these and um,

445
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that my grandmother, it just had a

446
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:02,959
Speaker 1: fifth grade education, Like you don't know that when you're

447
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 1: a kid. But I remember doing my homework around the

448
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 1: kitchen table, and I don't know, you know how you

449
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 1: grew up. But we had these, um you know, aluminum cabinets,

450
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,439
Speaker 1: these white like metal cabinets and um, you know, the

451
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: little like plastic chairs. But it was kind of the

452
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: kitchen that everybody had in the fifties and sixties, you

453
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 1: know what I'm talking about. And I was, yeah, yeah,

454
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 1: and we and yes, and every every every couple of

455
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 1: years we get another one. Either it was yellow or

456
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 1: you know, baby blue, and then later it became olive green.

457
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,919
Speaker 1: You know thing, And so we would sit around this

458
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 1: this this yellow and white kitchen table um, you know

459
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: that had the yellow phone on the wall with the

460
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: cord that went around the house. And so, um, I

461
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 1: would do my homework and I would ask my grandmother

462
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 1: to try to help me, and she would sit there

463
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 1: and you know, her presence would help. And then but

464
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:54,959
Speaker 1: very quickly I got to the point and I realized

465
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: that she really couldn't help me, that she wasn't helping me.

466
00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 1: And then so I would just sit and talk to

467
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,719
Speaker 1: her and she would tell me about all these stories

468
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: as we were reading. So I think that was what

469
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: she was doing, was trying to throw me off the

470
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 1: trayal or overcompensating, because she would tell me stories if

471
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 1: I would ask her about things, so she would go

472
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 1: and tell me stories. And then she would tell me

473
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: stories about going to vote, and um, how she couldn't

474
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: go vote. She would just give all these old stories,

475
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: you know, and when I was coming up a being

476
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah blah, and one of the stories

477
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 1: was about voting and how they would make her account

478
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 1: the jelly beans in the jar and my mom would

479
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 1: take her to vote, and how they would um uh

480
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 1: the number of bubbles in a bar of soap, and

481
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: all kinds of things in poll taxes, and I couldn't

482
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 1: believe it. And one day I just started crying and

483
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: I was like my grandmother, I can't believe that my

484
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: grandmother couldn't vote. That was just so weird to me,

485
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 1: or they tried to stop her from voting. And how

486
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: was my grandmother in her I guess at the time,

487
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 1: in her forties, maybe her fifties, how could she not

488
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 1: know how to read? Like doesn't everybody learn how to read?

489
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: Like I didn't. I didn't understand those things. And then

490
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: from that moment on, Katie, I wanted to read. I

491
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 1: wanted to be like the best reader ever so that

492
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 1: I could teach my grandmother how to read, because I

493
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: just thought it was just unfathomable to me that someone

494
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 1: was not allowed to have an education or the circumstances

495
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: of her life prevented her from getting an education. So

496
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 1: I I learned how to read quickly, and the biggest

497
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 1: part of that was sitting around that table with my

498
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: grandmother so that I could eventually teach her how to

499
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 1: read as a first or second grader. And did you

500
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 1: I did, and my grandmother and I would sit there

501
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 1: and we would read My Little Fun with Dick and

502
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: Jane books. See Dick Run, Run, Dick Run, Look at

503
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: Jane and Dick play, you know, those kinds of things.

504
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: And I would do my UM. You know, they would

505
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 1: the teacher would give you word lists and you'd have

506
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: to say, uh, there the other right, and you would say.

507
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: And I would sit there with my grandmother and we

508
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: would do our homework together, and we would learn to

509
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 1: read together. And that was my experience growing up with

510
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: my grandmother. I still miss her to this day. Was

511
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 1: she able to to see you succeed? She was able

512
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: to see a degree of success for me um. But

513
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: my grandmother started to just before I left Louisiana. She

514
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 1: started to develop Alzheimer's. And so I made my peace

515
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 1: with my grandmother because it was during the time that

516
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: I had to move on from Louisiana and my mom

517
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: and my aunt were taking care of her um as

518
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: she had Alzheimer's. Because my mom refused to put her

519
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: in the home. She said, I will never see my

520
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 1: mother in a home. And I watched my mom within

521
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: those ten years or so, and I think it was

522
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: five years. Um, while I was there, and then probably

523
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: five years after I left, I watched my mom age.

524
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: I could see it every time I go home, and

525
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: she would each ten years in one year. Um, but yeah,

526
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: she got to see some degree of successful. By the

527
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: time I became like a really thriving adult. My grandmother

528
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: had was succumbing to Alzheimers. She would go and um,

529
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: she would drive off in her nine six Ford Falcon

530
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,959
Speaker 1: and powder blue by the way, and she would come

531
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: visit us at our house. We lived around the corner,

532
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: and then we should have a conversation and then no

533
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: more than twenty or thirty minutes later, she would come

534
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: back again as if she hadn't been there. And that's

535
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: how we started to figure out. And then um, you know,

536
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: she would start to like walk down the street in

537
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: her slip and not have her dress on, and so

538
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: then we would know that she was dealing with something.

539
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: That's how we figured it out. But your sweet mom

540
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: got to see you and all your glory. Isn't that amazing?

541
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: That is that is the one thing you know, And

542
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: I write about the book The Visits to Africa, Katie,

543
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: as you know, to any any file that has any

544
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: awareness all they want to do is make their mom,

545
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: their parents proud, especially the mom, and my mom had

546
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: sacrificed so much for me Um the trip that we

547
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 1: took to Africa to learn about our ancestry, and we

548
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: sat by the sea and talked about what we were experiencing,

549
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: and we had just you know, we had just been

550
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: to the Cape Coast Castle in Ghana where the slaves

551
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 1: left to make that track across the Atlantic. Uh, and

552
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: we had been such an emotional day for us. And

553
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: we were watching as we were watching all this, these

554
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: kids play in the sea, naked, some of them with

555
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: bathing suits on, some of them in shorts, some of

556
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: them naked, just frolicking out a care in the world,

557
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: just being kids. And we wondered if we would have

558
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 1: had that degree of freedom if we had stayed there

559
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: with and and Um, even with the all of the

560
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: luxuries and the privilege that we had as Americans, if

561
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: there was something in us that did not um that

562
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: we did not contain that sort of freedom our person

563
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: because of everything that we had gone through, even with

564
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: all the privilege that we had. Because it was just

565
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: if you ever watch kids like that, they're just carefree,

566
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: not a care in the world, and they don't know

567
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 1: all of the craziness, right, it hasn't gotten to them yet.

568
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: And we started talking about that, and my mom said,

569
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,239
Speaker 1: I know that you are on the mother and I'm

570
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: supposed to show you things. But I'm so proud of you.

571
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: You have shown me things and taking me places that

572
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: I never thought that I would experience and see in

573
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: my life. And I cannot tell you how proud I

574
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: am of you and how much I love you and

575
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: what this experience is meant to me. And I just

576
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: lost it and I said, you know what, if I

577
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: never accomplished another thing in the world, on this earth,

578
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: I'm totally fine. Now it's it. You're you're You had

579
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: a tragedy and I didn't realize this done. I wish

580
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: I had, because you dedicate this book to your older

581
00:31:54,240 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: sister Lisa, who who died unexpectedly in two I was

582
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: in eighteen, and you write so poignantly about what it

583
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 1: was like to to grieve that loss, and um, you know,

584
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: having worked on my own book and having to relive

585
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: just even losing my husband j twenty three years ago,

586
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:21,479
Speaker 1: this was still so fresh and so painful. UM, and

587
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: I wondered if you could just talk about They talk

588
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: about her first and foremost, so we understand more about her,

589
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: but also talk about the experience of of writing about

590
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: your grief. Um. The experience in our lives shape us.

591
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: This is why the book is so hopeful to me,

592
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: and why I believe in allowing people to have grace. Right,

593
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: I don't believe in canceling people. I don't believe in

594
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: um judging people harshly, because we all deal with things,

595
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: and we don't know what people are dealing with, right,

596
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: and and even sometimes our anger can be really telling

597
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: about who we are and what we've experienced. And so UM,

598
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: this was a very profound experience for me, and it

599
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: taught me. I shouldn't say it taught me. I think

600
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: it's just Um. It re confirmed all of the teachings

601
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: that I had learned, all the things that I had

602
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 1: learned from my grandparents and from from my grandmother and

603
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: from my parents about grace and about loving people. Because

604
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: I love my sister with every fiber of my being.

605
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: And um, all of a sudden I lost her, And

606
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: not that she was sick, not that you know, there

607
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: was some expectation maybe she'll get well maybe she won't.

608
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: Maybe we should say our goodbys. But all of a sudden,

609
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: in an instant um and which was part of the

610
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: urgency of writing this book, my sister's death UM reinstalled

611
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: in me an urgency to make change, to live my life,

612
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: to say what I want to say before my time

613
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: is up, and to do right by people, and just

614
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:13,760
Speaker 1: to tell the truth. So um, my sister was like, uh,

615
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: you know, the modern day version of Angela Davis with

616
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: the afro. She was like black power. She she made

617
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,320
Speaker 1: me um. She taught me about Gil Scott heron she

618
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 1: would play it in a car and her a little convertible. Um.

619
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: She would make me listen to Dr King's speeches and

620
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: Malcolm Max speeches, and she was she was a force.

621
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: And um and this force, I was like, how can

622
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: my not? My sister can't be dead. She can't have

623
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 1: drowned accidentally in the lake. My sister is a force

624
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,399
Speaker 1: of nature. She's the person who taught me how to drive,

625
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: how to dress, the value of a dollar, how to

626
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: stand up to people, um, how to teach people, how

627
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: to how to treat you, all those things. Devil make care.

628
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: She you would say something to her and she would

629
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: tell you exactly how she felt and you'd be like,

630
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 1: oh wow. And so she was worse than me. She

631
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: had a mouth that was worse than mine. But that

632
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: was that was That's why I give people grace because

633
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,280
Speaker 1: that that is a pain that I don't want anybody

634
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: ever to have to go through, losing a sibling that

635
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 1: you're so close to. But also the pain that my

636
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 1: mother went through. Um, and I listen, I saw it,

637
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 1: but I still can't relate to it. The they say

638
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: losing a child for a parent is the worst thing

639
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: that can happen. And I watched my mother and I

640
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: experienced her go through that, and I write about it

641
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 1: in the book, how she could not stop talking because

642
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: she had to fill the silence because the silence was

643
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: just too painful for her, and it would fill her

644
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: with thoughts that she probably didn't ever want to think,

645
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: and the realization that her eldest daughter was dead. And

646
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: I watched her just talk talk talk tok tok tok

647
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: tok tok talk talk, and fidgeon and smoking and do

648
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: and smoke cigarettes and do whatever, and just um, she

649
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: just couldn't be silent for a moment, and so um,

650
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: it was even worse than when my dad died as

651
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 1: a kid. So yeah, that's my experience with my sister.

652
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 1: But you probably didn't realize I was going through it

653
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 1: because it wasn't that long ago. Um. I felt that

654
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: I felt so bad not to talk about those things publicly,

655
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 1: and I put up this front right like, hey, everything

656
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: is great, But everything wasn't great, Katie. I was dealing

657
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: with a lot of depression, and I was also dealing

658
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: with at the time the whole Trump thing, which was

659
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 1: so tough as a journalist to cover. I know it

660
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: sounds crazy, but it was so toxic. That's what it was,

661
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 1: just so toxic, and all of it was just way.

662
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: It started to weigh on me. Can you read a

663
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,919
Speaker 1: passage about Black Americans and grief from page sixty nine

664
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: for us Don The chapters called my Lord, what a morning?

665
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 1: When the stars began to fall? And I talked about

666
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: the Negro spiritual about morning it should be m O

667
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: you are and I n G and not m O

668
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: R and I n G that people think that you're

669
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: you're talking about But I talked about um about black

670
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 1: grief also depression. How we you know, don't really talk

671
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: about it, and um, and so on and so forth. Okay,

672
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: so it's I say. Black Americans have an intimate relationship

673
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: with death. They know loss and what it is to

674
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: be left behind. A black funeral is a beautiful thing

675
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: to experience, because that marrow, deep understanding moans from the

676
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: very bones of the mourners and reverberates in the rafters

677
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: above the choir. The grief is unchained by waspish inhibition.

678
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: The music is soulful, older than pipe organs in church pews.

679
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 1: White choirs try to coop songs like go Tell It

680
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: on the Mountain and Swing Low, Sweet Chariot, but they

681
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,720
Speaker 1: never truly succeed. In the late eighteen hundreds, white Protestant

682
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,359
Speaker 1: choirs began to sing a Negro spiritual that, in their

683
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: minds spoke of the rapture that day, at the end

684
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: of days, when a resolutely white Jesus will return to Earth,

685
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 1: kicking butt and taking names. My Lord, what a morning

686
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: when the stars began to fall. But the original version

687
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 1: of the song goes back much further. The song as

688
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 1: They Decided in the Souls of Black Boats Folks by W. B.

689
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: Two Boys is from an eighteen sixty seven collection simply

690
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:23,320
Speaker 1: titled slave songs of the United States, and then do anyway.

691
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: I go on to read what it is, and then

692
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 1: I say it was m ou r n i n g.

693
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 1: They waited for, not m o r i n G.

694
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 1: The apparent scriptural source of the song Amos say nine

695
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 1: and talked about speaks of a time when corruption, cruelty,

696
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 1: and greed have reached a critical mass and the feasts

697
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 1: of the wicked turned to lamentations. You don't have to

698
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 1: dig hard to get the subtext there. It is not

699
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: about rapture. It was about reckoning. You're such a good writer.

700
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 1: Don I think I'm a better writer than I am

701
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: a journalist, Katie. You know, this experience taught me, Like,

702
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: you know, I think I do okay, you know, at

703
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 1: night on TV just sort of talking off my head.

704
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: I think I'd be okay with that. But when you

705
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: actually have time time to sit down with the words

706
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 1: and with the information that you're you know, I had

707
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: to do research and all of those things. When you

708
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: have time to sit with it, you can craft it

709
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: and it's not just coming off the top of your head.

710
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: You're like, how do I want to craft this sentence?

711
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 1: What do I want to tell people? About it, and

712
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:29,240
Speaker 1: I had to remember that the original love of my life,

713
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: but not people wise, was writing because of my grandmother

714
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 1: learning to read and writing, and that was I always

715
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 1: got a's in writing. Like my teachers would not believe.

716
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: They'd say, who wrote this for you? And I would say,

717
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: I wrote it this. You didn't write this. I would say, yes,

718
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: I did write it, and they had to call my

719
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 1: parents and my parents would say, yes, he wrote that,

720
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 1: and I said, well, you helped him. Well, of course

721
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: I helped him, but I didn't write it for him. Right.

722
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: Parents sit there and say, you know, you know, okay,

723
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: that's you. Um, you have to you know, the instead

724
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: of or like little things like that. But I always

725
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: wrote it. And that's why I was so attracted to

726
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: James Baldwin is because he's such a beautiful writer. But

727
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: I think I do. Okay, I'm not Baldwin, but I

728
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 1: actually think I'm a better writer than I am, just

729
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 1: like a TV host talking off the top of his head.

730
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: When we come back, is this the end of white

731
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 1: supremacy as we know it? That's in just a moment.

732
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 1: We are still in the midst of seismic cultural shifts

733
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: of all kinds. I think when it comes to race, gender, uh,

734
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: marginalized communities of all kinds. And I I'm curious, you know,

735
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 1: I think about the quote the arc of the moral

736
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 1: universe is long, but it bends towards justice. But when

737
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: you think about the arc of the moral universe, I mean,

738
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 1: where are we in this racial reckoning? Don I know

739
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: we have a long way to go In many ways,

740
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 1: it feels like we're at the very beginning. But do

741
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,720
Speaker 1: you feel like progress is being made? Do you feel

742
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: that it's it's hard to evaluate. I know you had

743
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,800
Speaker 1: an experience in sag Harbor when you during the pandemic

744
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 1: or towards the end, when they opened up a shop

745
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,359
Speaker 1: and well you tell the story, well and there's open

746
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: on a shop and you know, Katie, I wasn't going

747
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 1: to include that because I was like, this is way

748
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: too privileged and um, and I'll tell the story afterwards,

749
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,800
Speaker 1: and then um, along with the publisher and the collaborator

750
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: of the book, we're like, I was like, I didn't

751
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 1: want I said, I wrote about it, but I don't

752
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: know if I want to. And everyone said you should

753
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: leave it in there because it's important to know that

754
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,760
Speaker 1: these things happen to not just UM for black people

755
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: of a certain economic background. It happens to all people,

756
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: all all people of color and UM. And it was

757
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: the It is one of the most related both things

758
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 1: UM two people in the book. And I almost left

759
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,280
Speaker 1: it out. But I was in the shop. I was shopping.

760
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,240
Speaker 1: I was just walking by this place I was opening

761
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 1: up in sag Harbor, and I wanted a cutting board

762
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: and had the perfect cutting boards because I was during

763
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,359
Speaker 1: the pen during quarantine. I had ruined my marble countertops

764
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: with the acid from lemons. That that that I was

765
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,439
Speaker 1: I was making lemonade from. We had these Myers lemon

766
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 1: trees from the summer that we brought into the house

767
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: in the winter. It was full of lemons and so

768
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 1: we would use it to make lemonade. I would squeeze

769
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 1: lemons and make it in this old sunbeam mixer which

770
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: were in the count And so the guy who was

771
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: reading the counter shop said, here's what I suggest is

772
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: that you get cutting boards and you put them all

773
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: over and that way won't you won't get okay? Fine,

774
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 1: So I saw the cutting boards and I went in

775
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 1: the shop and I said, oh, I want these, And

776
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: he said, sir, you can't come in. It's a that is.

777
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: Oh I'm sorry, I said, but I'll take these and

778
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 1: I bought them. And so I went and all my

779
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 1: way back because it was right around my house. I

780
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 1: think we're going to get a coffee or something. And

781
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 1: I go back by and there's like a one been

782
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 1: shopping in the store. I didn't think much about it.

783
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 1: If it's just like, well, he just told me that

784
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: I couldn't come in there because and there's this woman

785
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: shopping in the store. And I said, and so, and

786
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay. So I told him about it, and

787
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: then I called up some of my friends about it.

788
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: And I called up like my black friends and my

789
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: wife friends, and they were all like, you know, and

790
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 1: I said, I don't know. I don't want to make

791
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: a thing out of it. Maybe I'm being paranoid. I

792
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 1: have no idea, but this is the time that we're

793
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 1: in right now. And I said, what should I do?

794
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 1: And and um, they all, to a person, regardless of

795
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 1: their ethnicity, said take them back. And I said okay.

796
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: And I said, but I'm not gonna make a thing

797
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 1: out of it. And then I told him, I said,

798
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: isn't that weird that we have to live in this

799
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: world where I don't know if he was um, if

800
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 1: he was discriminating against me, or I'm not sure, but

801
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 1: that is the paranoia that black people live in. I

802
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 1: equated it. I equated it too, or I equated to

803
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 1: running a race, ready set go. Black books are always

804
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: in set when it comes to these issues. We don't know.

805
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: There's a paranoia about is it happening or not. It

806
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 1: could be that it is happening or couldn't be. But

807
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:10,320
Speaker 1: that's the world that we lived in, and that's the reality.

808
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: So um, anyway, I write about that long story short,

809
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:15,879
Speaker 1: I hope I've told enough of that story. I took

810
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: him back, the guy and I had this knowing experience,

811
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: like and I said to him, I said, I don't know,

812
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 1: but I walked by and you you know, you told

813
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 1: me this, and I bought them. And then I walked

814
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 1: by and someone shopping and he said, oh, well, they're

815
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: training in the store. And I was like, well, she

816
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:33,280
Speaker 1: doesn't look like she's training. She's shopping. And I said, anyways,

817
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: they just don't fit in my kitchen. And so I

818
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: would just like to return them. You can have them back.

819
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 1: I'll take my money back. Or if there's a store credit.

820
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. I just don't want it to be

821
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: an issue. And he got it, like I think he

822
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 1: got it, and I got it, and that was it.

823
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 1: I felt good about what I did. I didn't blast

824
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 1: him out. I won't say the store. It's not a

825
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: big deal to me. Okay, I'm not trying to cancel anybody.

826
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 1: Goo shop at every store in sag Harbor, spend all

827
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 1: your money. It's not my thing. It's not for me

828
00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:00,399
Speaker 1: to do. But um so your question him was are

829
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 1: we making progress? Right? That's the good question. I think

830
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 1: we are making progress, but you know, I think we

831
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 1: make more progress. Katie. It's for people like me and

832
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 1: you to sit and have these conversations as we are

833
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 1: now as someone who knows each other of different backgrounds,

834
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: don't look like each other, and there is a degree

835
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: of respect, friendship, love and honesty and confidence and vulnerability

836
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,320
Speaker 1: that we have. So, as I said at the beginning,

837
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 1: there are no stupid questions. Katie. Kurt can ask me

838
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: anything she wants to as a friend who is white,

839
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: and I'm not going to cancel her. I'm not gonna

840
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: do I'm not gonna yell at her about whatever. I'm

841
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 1: going to offer her the grace to be able to

842
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: learn something as long as she's willing to do so.

843
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:46,439
Speaker 1: And the same thing, I think respect should be paid

844
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 1: back to me that Katie doesn't expect me to teach

845
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 1: her everything about what it's like to be black, but

846
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 1: is confident enough in me to know that I'm going

847
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: to listen to her and offer my help. And so

848
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 1: I think we have enough people like that in our

849
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: society now who are willing to do that work. I hope,

850
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 1: because we're I hope, so at least we're at an

851
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 1: inflection point. And the reason I know that we're at

852
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 1: an inflection point is because I think that we're in

853
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 1: the last throws of white supremacy. And my the evidence

854
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 1: of that for me is the insurrection on Capitol Hill.

855
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 1: It is the racist marching openly in Charlottesville. It is

856
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 1: the big lie that people bought into, many of them willingly,

857
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: some of them not willingly, about an election being stolen,

858
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:30,840
Speaker 1: and a lot of things that happened over the past

859
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: five years that exposed the degree of racism that we

860
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:39,360
Speaker 1: had hidden, or at least under just below the surface

861
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 1: in this society. So I think the demographics, we'll take

862
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 1: care of it. Between we're gonna be at minority majority

863
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 1: status in this country, and I think that's gonna do

864
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: a lot just to you can't fight it, it's just

865
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 1: simple mathematics. But the inflection point now is truth voter

866
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: suppres shouldn't we have to fight against it and having

867
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: relationships with people who don't look like us, because then

868
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 1: we get to see their humanity. This is an inflection point.

869
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: So I think, yes, we have made progress, but the

870
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 1: real work is in the coming days, months, and a

871
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: couple of years ahead. But I do believe that we're

872
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 1: at the end of white supremacy as we know it

873
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 1: in this country. I really do. It's not gonna happen

874
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:25,479
Speaker 1: over It's not going to be you know, in five years.

875
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: It's gonna maybe ten, twenty years. But I think we're

876
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: at the We're at the end of it. That's why

877
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 1: people are fighting so hard to keep it. Yeah, I

878
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 1: I think you're it's almost the last gasp of a

879
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: of a different of a different country, and you right

880
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 1: that we must summon the courage to love people infuriate

881
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: us um And I think that's that's very tough for

882
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: a lot of people now, especially when you consider seventy

883
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 1: four million people who felt, you know, for whatever reason,

884
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 1: and I don't think you can generalize about that biggest,

885
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 1: largest swath of the population, but seventy four million people

886
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 1: felt comfortable voting for Donald Trump, uh, and felt that

887
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 1: it was okay if he continued to be the you know,

888
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:22,320
Speaker 1: the leader of our country. Um. And you don't seem

889
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 1: that loving at night on CNN with all due respect God, UM,

890
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 1: I'm loving to the people in my life who I

891
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: know personally. No. I mean, you know, when you talk

892
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 1: about issues, Um, I don't. I don't know. I don't

893
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:43,399
Speaker 1: sense many metaphorical olive branches being handed out on your show,

894
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,319
Speaker 1: because I can't give an olive branch to people who

895
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 1: who don't believe in my existence. I can't give an

896
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,919
Speaker 1: olive branch to people who don't believe that I should

897
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 1: have the same rights under the same laws, constitution, and

898
00:48:56,040 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 1: even under the same God. That then how can you right?

899
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: We must summon the courage to love people who infuriate us,

900
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 1: because you can love people and you can hold them

901
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 1: to account at the same time, and you can love

902
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,399
Speaker 1: people and you can expect a degree of truth from

903
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: them UM, you can love people and then not have

904
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 1: your morals and your values compromised. But the easy answers

905
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 1: that you can love people from afar. You don't have

906
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 1: to by loving someone, it doesn't mean that you have

907
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 1: to invite them into your home, doesn't mean that you

908
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:32,760
Speaker 1: have to sing Kumba Yah with them. But it doesn't

909
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 1: mean that you have to that that you should hate them.

910
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,240
Speaker 1: So I don't hate anyone. I don't hate Donald Trump.

911
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 1: I can't say that I love Donald Trump. I don't

912
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 1: know him enough for that. But I know that there

913
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 1: are UM and I'm paraphrasing James Baldwin here after he

914
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 1: met with UM, the Honorable Elijah Mohammed, and he said,

915
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 1: I know that there are I love. There are a

916
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 1: few people I love in my life, and some of

917
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 1: them are white and some of them are black, And

918
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:59,240
Speaker 1: so I sort of had that same sort of feeling

919
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 1: about it. But just because I'm calling someone out and

920
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 1: I'm telling Trump supporters UM about themselves and not all

921
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 1: of them, because not all of them are living in denial,

922
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:12,839
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that I don't love them. I don't

923
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 1: love my fellow countrymen. I'm just holding them to account.

924
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 1: But also again as I agree, I can love them

925
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: from the bar. I really appreciate you writing this book done.

926
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 1: I think it's incredibly helpful and instructive for people, And

927
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 1: I also appreciate your idea of grace. And I think

928
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 1: a lot of well meaning people want to be better,

929
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 1: want to do better, um, and are trying, but sometimes

930
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: they slip. And I think that giving people that grace

931
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:48,320
Speaker 1: is a real gift and very much an act of

932
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,959
Speaker 1: of generosity and humanity. So I think that we should

933
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 1: have more conversations like this, Um. We're well meaning people

934
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 1: really really want to learn and do better. And sometimes

935
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:04,800
Speaker 1: I wonder how I would feel if I had grown

936
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 1: up black in America, and how how full of fury

937
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:15,359
Speaker 1: I might be. You know, It's it's an interesting exercise, uh,

938
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 1: And I think we're all on this learning journey. But

939
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 1: I think your book is going to help a lot

940
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 1: of people with that, So thank you for writing it.

941
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 1: I believe that, I hope, so I said initially, I

942
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 1: believe that in the reception that it's had, it's been

943
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:33,800
Speaker 1: really good. So I'm very hopeful and optimistic about about that.

944
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: And I agree with you it is a gift, um,

945
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,319
Speaker 1: But we have to give each other right grace, each

946
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 1: of us. You had to respect and believe in my humanity,

947
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 1: and I have to respect and believe in your humanity.

948
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 1: And once we start to see each other as human

949
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: beings and recognize the humanity and each other, it's harder

950
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:53,719
Speaker 1: to discriminate our dinner grade or put your knee on

951
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 1: someone's neck for eight minutes and forty six seconds, because obviously,

952
00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: in order to do that, you don't see the humanity

953
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:02,279
Speaker 1: and the person you know, you don't respect a life.

954
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 1: And if we see each other's human beings, we respect

955
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: each other's life and the right to be able to breathe.

956
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 1: And so I agree with you. So let's continue to

957
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 1: do this, and I hope there's a commitment in America

958
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 1: that we all continue to do at these conversations. Do

959
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 1: the work. Thanks again to Don Lemon and his new

960
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 1: book is called This Is the Fire. I highly recommend it.

961
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 1: Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production of My

962
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:38,839
Speaker 1: Heart Media and Katie Kurk Media. The executive producers Army

963
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 1: Katie Curic and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen.

964
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 1: Associate producers Derek Clements Adriana Fassio and Emily Pinto. The

965
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,839
Speaker 1: show is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more

966
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 1: information about today's episode, or to sign up for my

967
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go to Katie currek dot com.

968
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:01,320
Speaker 1: You can also to find me at Katie Couric, on

969
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 1: Instagram and on my social media channels. For more podcasts

970
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 1: from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,

971
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:12,240
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.