1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,120 Speaker 1: So it's probably worth mentioning as we launched into the 2 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:04,520 Speaker 1: next interview, which I'm looking forward to a great deal 3 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: that James Madison, generally considered the father of Constitution, said, 4 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: and this was one of our freedom loving quotes of 5 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,879 Speaker 1: the day this week, that the government exists to protect 6 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:16,119 Speaker 1: our individual rights and property rights. That's the reason the 7 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: government exists is to protect property rights. Well, this will 8 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:21,959 Speaker 1: be a bit of a contrast. Joshua House joins us. 9 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: Joshua is an attorney for the Institute for Justice, a libertarian, 10 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: nonprofit public interest law firm that litigates constitutional cases protecting 11 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: economic liberty, property rights, school choice, and other civil liberties. 12 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: Hello Joshua, how are you hey? Doing great? Thanks for 13 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: having me on. Do I understand that you grew up 14 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: listening to the Armstrong and Getty Show riding in your 15 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: mom's car. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Um, you know, commutes 16 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: to school, basically starting it around. I want to say 17 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: the age of thirteen, when my mom started a job 18 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: out in Livermore. We got we started getting you guys 19 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: on the on the in the car. Righttastic, So we've 20 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: actually done some good in the world. Would you be 21 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: so kind as to call my parents later to so 22 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: I would be interested if anything our point of view 23 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: had any uh impact on the direction you went with 24 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: your schooling and your thoughts. I don't know. I mean, 25 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: I think it's the area. I feel like there's a 26 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: strong libertarian streak in northern California. So I think that 27 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: was kind of a product of the entire environment. And 28 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:22,960 Speaker 1: and I'm not sure I'm digging you know. This is 29 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,839 Speaker 1: a different topic, but how regularly we run into people. 30 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: I've been listening to you since as a tiny kid 31 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: with five kids. The hell so listen. Uh, you guys 32 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: have had a couple of great victories lately. But let's 33 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: talk about something I believe you're in the middle of, 34 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: and that's fighting on behalf of a Norco homeowner who 35 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: allegedly had violated some of the city's housing code. Tell 36 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: us about that case. Yeah, sure, So Norco is about 37 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: ten minutes south of Riverside. Um. It is not, you know, 38 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: the typical suburban neighborhood. It is the kind of ranch 39 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: homes they call themselves Horsetown, USA. In fact, everybody's got 40 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: of a horse trail running through their backyard. This is 41 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: in south central California. For folks listening around the globe, 42 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: go on, Josh, that's right, the Great Inland Empire. So 43 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,119 Speaker 1: uh so you know, Ron, it was a hobby machinist, 44 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:13,399 Speaker 1: fixes up some things. He's got a lot of machinery 45 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:15,519 Speaker 1: in his yard. I remember being taken aback by the 46 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 1: fact that he's got a giant kind of trailer thing 47 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 1: in the back. But then I went around and everyone 48 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: has some sort of horse trailer or something in his backyard. Well, 49 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: he was cited for violating the city's code for all 50 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 1: that kind of things. But instead of just sighting him 51 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: and asking for a fine asking him to clean it up, 52 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: they actually freatened to take his house because of the 53 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: mess in the backyard. And that's that's when Ron started 54 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: fighting back. He actually got an attorney, he got the 55 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: case thrown out. They were trying to take it and 56 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: put it into a receivership, which is where they give 57 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: a government appointed official your property to fix it up 58 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: for you. Uh, they were going to do that. He 59 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: fought it. No receiver ever got the property. But then 60 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: after he thought he had won, the attorneys for the 61 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: city sent him a bill for over sixty dollars and 62 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: that was supposedly because well, they had to pay that 63 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: the costs of the whole receivership, but they didn't win 64 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: the receivership. The court ruled in Ron's favor. Correct. Yeah, 65 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: the court actually vacated kind of got rid of the 66 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: original receivership ruling it had originally awarded the receivership when 67 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: he was in the hospital. He couldn't show up the court. 68 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: He had a heart surgery. Um. And this is what's 69 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: crazy is that, you know, a normal government official going 70 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 1: going into court when the court looks at you and says, 71 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: are you sure you want to proceed because the defendant 72 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: is in the hospital. A normal official who has you know, 73 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: he's susceptible to the public will, is probably going to 74 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: think twice, that's right. This. This is not a normal 75 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: government official that's asking for the sixty dollars that brought 76 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: this case against him. This is a private law firm. 77 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: And the law firm actually makes its money by going 78 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: after these people. It offers what's called cost recovery services 79 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: to these tiny cities, and it basically says, hey, why 80 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: pay your own attorneys when we'll get our fees back 81 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: from the people we prosecute. And that goes for both 82 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: criminal violations as well as civil enforcement cases like nuisance 83 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: abatements or these receivership proceedings. So it's a prosecutor essentially 84 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: asking you to pay for the privilege of having been 85 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: prosecuted unsuccessfully in this case. And as you pointed out 86 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: in some of the written material that we read before 87 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: he came on, this was not like the first time 88 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: they made this maneuver. These companies do this over and 89 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: over again. Somebody's got backyard chickens they're not supposed to have. 90 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 1: All of a sudden they say, all right, I'll get 91 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: rid of the chickens, and they get hit with a 92 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: giant legal bill for the right of being prosecuted. That's right. 93 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: And actually this is kind of a follow up, so 94 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: you're referring to another case. We had an India, which 95 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: is also in the same same area of California, and 96 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: you know, in that case, it was it was you know, 97 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: it caused such a stir that the California legislature nearly 98 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: unanimously passed a bill to stop this practice. The problem 99 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: is they added, during the whole legislative rigmarole, a tiny 100 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: exception that basically said, for civil cases. Well, the problem 101 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: is a lot of enforcement cases in California don't go 102 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: to criminal court. They go to a civil essentially a 103 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: civil court, but it's still an enforcement proceeding, and the 104 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: California has Supreme Court has still that look. A prosecutor, 105 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: whether in a civil enforcement or criminal enforcement, cannot have 106 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 1: a conflict of interest, cannot make money from prosecuting people. 107 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: Joshua House is an attorney for the Institute for Justice. 108 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: They try to protect your rights. So, josh just in general, 109 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: before we let you go, I'm sorry, may we call 110 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: you Joshua? Do you really prefer Joshua? Josh a shorter 111 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: Why don't you go with that? Alright? Um, is even 112 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: shorter than so, josh What is do you think the 113 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: most common, the most egregious, the most annoying infringement on 114 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: property rights going on in the US today? Well, I'd 115 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: say I'm biased because kind of my niche here at 116 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: the Institute for Justice is these code enforcement sorts of cases. 117 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: And I think people don't realize, you know, we get 118 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: all upset about the federal government and it's it seems 119 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: so large and kind of Leviathan like, but really some 120 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: of the gravest abuses of liberty can happen at these 121 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: tiny municipal levels where there's a lot of kind of 122 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: personal influence over the government, where you know, someone a 123 00:05:57,800 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: city council decides they don't like the one guy in 124 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: town who's kind of this, you know, maybe a bit 125 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: of a character, and they can go after him. And 126 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: there are very few do process protections for what goes 127 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: on at kind of the local level. We haven't. We 128 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: had another case actually in um in Pagdale, Missouri. It's 129 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: right outside St. Louis, where one of our clients had 130 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 1: been ticketed for having mismatched drapes. In other words, the 131 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: drapes on some windows didn't match the drapes on other 132 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: Windows's somewhere that was a thing. But really the point 133 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 1: of that wasn't her color of her drapes. It was 134 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: that the city made sometimes over its income from ticketing 135 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: people this way. Well, right, you know, it's funny. I 136 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: was just going to bring up the case of points 137 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: just flitted out of my head. Um uh, where they 138 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: had all the riots and everything um Ferguson, Missouri. That 139 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: was the media was so obsessed with the race baiting 140 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 1: aspects of the case that they barely reported on the 141 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: fact that the people of Ferguson were thoroughly piste off, 142 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: that they were constantly being targeted with tiki tak offenses 143 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: and fine didn't stopped for rolling stop signs all the time, 144 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: and that was a major part of the local budget. 145 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: And they realized that they were being exploited because they 146 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: couldn't afford to hire lawyers and stuff like that. And 147 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: there was a generalized resentment against the government. So I 148 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: love that you guys are targeting this sort of thing. 149 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: H Joshua House is an attorney for the Institute for Justice. Hey, Joshua, 150 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: thanks a bunch. Let's stay in touch. Love the work 151 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: you guys are doing great. Yeah, thanks for having me on. 152 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: All right, keep it up. That is so true. My 153 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: the town I live in, it turns out, has been 154 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: completely corrupt. There was just a big audit of it, 155 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: and and they were playing fast and loose with so 156 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: many different things and so many backscratching deals in illegal 157 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: use of funds and funky accounting and the rest of it. 158 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: They got caught as a small town. Newspapers go away 159 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: and all our focuses on national media and the president, 160 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: the president of the president, and we didn't. We don't 161 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: even have the patience to talk about Congress anymore. It's 162 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: the president, always the president.