WEBVTT - Anxiety and Grief 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.400 This is the Anxiety Bites podcast, and I am your host, 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:18.560 Jen Kirkman. I hope you enjoyed last week's Phobia a 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:21.080 Flying episode. I know some people wrote me and said 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:25.200 it was giving them anxiety to hear me describe my 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:27.680 anxiety in detail. And that does happen even if we're 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:32.760 not anxious when we start listening to something, Hearing people 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.519 talk about anxiety can bring things up and be, for 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:38.919 lack of a better word, triggering. And so I that's 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:42.599 why I really appreciate the conversation I had with this 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:45.720 week's guest, Claire Bidwell Smith, and I'll get into her 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:51.120 in a moment. But something I really love about how 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:56.440 we started this episode is we took into account you know, 0:00:56.480 --> 0:01:00.640 if someone is listening um, maybe they need to kind 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:03.120 of ground themselves before they get into the episode. And 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:05.440 that had nothing to do with last week's Fear of 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:08.880 Flying episode. I've recorded a bunch of these interviews, you know, 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:10.840 months and months in advance as I tried to get 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:13.240 ahead of this podcast, and it just sort of shook 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:16.920 out that way that these two episodes are back to back. 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:20.399 But in um Claire's new book Anxiety, the Missing Stage 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:24.600 of grief. Her book starts with asking the reader to, 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:27.000 you know, make sure they're in kind of a safe 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:30.880 space mentally physically. Maybe they need to take a minute 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:34.520 and do some breathing before they dive into a book 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:40.760 about grief and loss and death and anxiety. And so 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:42.440 we sort of talked about that at the beginning of 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:44.720 the episode. You know, what can people do when they're 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:49.360 about to listen to something that may just stir up 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:52.800 some even if it's not emotions, but just physical sensations 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:55.559 that are uncomfortable that you don't want to have while 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:58.760 you're driving to work or sitting at your desk listening 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:03.640 with headphones on. So I guess if you need to 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:07.560 hit pause and take a few breaths and get get 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:11.280 centered and tell yourself you're safe, it's okay. But we 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:14.800 are going to be talking about death and anxiety in 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:17.600 this episode, and it's actually one of my favorite episodes 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:19.680 because I love talking about death because I don't know 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:21.560 if you're anything like me, but I'm going to die 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:26.600 someday and I don't know when, and um, you know, 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:28.560 that's sort of how we all come into this world, right. 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:33.600 We don't get a return ticket, We don't know when 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:37.880 that is going to happen, and in my opinion, I 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:43.320 think that's probably what's created a lot of my anxiety. Now, 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:46.399 if I was given the choice, what would you rather 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:48.400 not know at all? Would you rather be more like 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:50.679 an animal who just has no sense of the fact 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:53.440 that they're mortal? I guess not. I mean, I have 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:58.120 a feeling that it probably works out better too to 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:00.600 know though this is a special ex variants and this 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:04.040 is a limited time offer. I mean, who knows. I 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:08.800 can be pretty unmotivated as it is knowing you know, 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:13.239 um that we're all not here forever. So I imagine 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:16.720 if I really had no concept of that. I don't know. 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:18.200 I don't know how much I would get done in 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:19.799 a day. I don't know how much I would really 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:22.440 think about enjoying myself. Who knows. But one thing that 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:26.280 I do know is that in my entire life, I've 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:29.639 had a fear of death. I I pushed those feelings away. 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:31.160 I didn't want to think about it because I thought 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:33.520 to think about it would make it worse. In my 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:37.120 experience has been completely the opposite. Not thinking about the 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:39.800 fact that people die or I might die has just 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:44.840 festered in my soul, in my psyche, even in my body, 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:48.960 and it came out as intense panic attacks. And and honestly, 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:51.720 I'd rather be uncomfortable for a few minutes a day, 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:55.120 intellectually thinking about death, maybe feeling some sensations of anxiety, 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:58.360 than having quote out of the blue panic attacks six 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:01.000 to ten times a day for decades like I used to. 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:04.400 And it wasn't until I read Claire's book that something 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:08.920 just made sense to me that hadn't made sense for decades. 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:13.840 And I that's why I love continuing to investigate anxiety, 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:16.480 because I keep learning things, or I keep changing my 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:19.400 own story and saying, oh wait, that's why I was 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:23.240 so anxious about then, because I remember my panic attacks 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:27.440 really heating up when I was about twelve years old, 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:32.200 and until then they've been pretty relegated to airplanes, things 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:36.560 like that, places where it makes sense. But I started 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:40.919 having panic attacks just around just in life when I 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:44.440 was about twelve. And for you know, a lot of 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:46.680 the story is, oh, well, you know, it's the eighties, 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:49.240 and there was a lot of talk about nuclear war 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:52.560 on TV, and you know, all of us kids in 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:54.920 the eighties were just thought, any minute now, we were 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:56.960 going to get newked because that's that's kind of what 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:59.800 we were told. And I guess, I guess that could 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:03.920 have awesome panic. I mean, for sure wasn't my favorite thing. 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:08.760 But I wonder how much I really internalized that, I 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:12.360 really understood that that was an actual risk. I mean, 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:15.480 I don't know, but it wasn't until I read Claire's 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:17.839 book that I realized. I think when my grandfather died 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:23.080 is when my panic attacks really started visiting me a 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.440 lot more. And so the way that my mind worked 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:29.480 through this in the years, you know, my whole life 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:32.400 actually was well, I wasn't that close with my grandfather 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:33.800 and even know if I ever had a one on 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:36.640 one deep conversation with him. He died when I was twelve. 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:38.960 He had dozens of grandchildren. We saw him twice a 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:42.839 year at holidays. I mean, really, what would I be 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:46.039 panicking about the fact that he died. I mean, grandparents died. 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:48.880 We almost say it in a sort of flip way, like, oh, 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:51.040 you know, how does it has anyone you know died 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:53.000 on just just my grandparents, you know, like it's like 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:55.160 all those people are supposed to die. And that's just 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:56.599 sort of how I looked at it. You know, just 0:05:57.200 --> 0:05:59.120 just my grandfather died when I was twelve, no big deal, 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:00.320 but it's like it was a big It was the 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:03.800 first death I've ever experienced. I remember I did see 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:07.040 his body um at the funeral home and and I 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:09.640 didn't love that. I didn't. I didn't mean to. I 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:12.680 I turned a corner and open casket, and you know, 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:17.040 and going to the graveyard and just seeing a hole 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:19.880 in the ground and what you know, putting a coffin 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:21.640 in there, and he's in there and he's not alive, 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:23.560 and we all threw a flower on it. It's all 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:27.400 very beautiful. But I mean, that's weird. I'm not judging it. 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:28.719 I'm not saying that we should come up with a 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:32.080 new tradition. I'm just saying that's just interesting, different experience 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:34.360 that is death in front of you. And I don't 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:36.640 think I loved it. And I think in my brain 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.360 the last few decades, I thought, well, I mean, if 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:41.240 you're not that close with someone, how could it affect you. 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:44.520 It's like, because it's death and you're twelve, and this 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:47.800 is the first time you're seeing this thing, you sort 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:50.600 of knew in the back of your head happens to grandparents. 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:54.799 But it's gonna happen to you, you know, And uh, 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:57.080 he wasn't sick a long time. It was pretty sudden, 0:06:57.839 --> 0:06:59.839 and of course that affected me, but I really think 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.720 gave me anxiety and panic attacks. I just didn't understand 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:08.320 how those two were connected. And what I like about 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:10.680 her book Anxiety the Missing Stage of Grief. I think 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:13.880 it came out at the perfect time because I remember 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:21.320 during the lockdown of feeling something that was not anxiety 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:26.600 and it was not depression, but it was grief. I 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:29.560 was grieving the fact that the world was in the 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:31.840 state that it was, that so many people were dying 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:34.440 of COVID, that so many people were sick, out of work, 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:37.440 scared that I didn't, you know, I wasn't going to 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:40.640 be able to see people. I lived alone, and I 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:42.720 have depression and anxiety, and I and I knew this 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:45.440 isn't depression, because depression is almost like a lack of 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:50.320 feeling anything right, that this was more. Um, it just 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:52.360 gets you in the gut where it just feels like 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:55.760 this is so much sorrow. And I realized, oh, I'm 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:59.440 in some grief around the pandemic, and I think grief 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:02.040 isn't something we talk about that much because I mean, 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:04.640 what are you gonna do with grief? Right? You know, 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:08.200 anxiety at least know what you should do about it, 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:10.440 whether you do it or not. Oh, I think there's 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:14.000 some breathing involved. Everyone says maybe some yoga, maybe some therapy. 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:16.680 But grief, it just seems like, Oh, I don't know, 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:19.119 it's too much, you know, and I have to work. 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:20.600 What am I gonna do. I can't take a month 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:24.480 off and go grieve somewhere, you know, and and uh, 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:27.280 and that might involve crying, and I just forget it. 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:30.040 I can't. And I've always heard about the five stages 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:32.000 of grief, and I'd always heard that they weren't linear, 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:35.080 so that if somebody dies, it's not like right away 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:36.920 you're bawling your eyes out, and you might or you 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:39.720 might not, or you might feel numb. And and I 0:08:39.800 --> 0:08:43.160 talked to to clear in this episode about myself. A 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:45.160 few times I did mention the death of my grandfather. 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:48.920 I mentioned the death of someone I know, um in 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:51.280 this episode. I really didn't want to. In a weird way, 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:53.320 it just sort of came out. And the reason it 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:56.440 did is, as I'm hosting this podcast, I'm not really 0:08:56.440 --> 0:09:00.280 trying to get advice for myself. Necessarily sometimes I am, 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:03.640 but I just figure, well, if I feel this way, 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:06.040 I'm not unique because I'm a human on the earth. 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:09.160 Maybe someone listening can get something out of the example 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:11.520 I'm making of myself in this moment. And so I 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:14.440 didn't love bringing up this person. I knew that that 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:17.439 passed away, but I just decided to do it anyway 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:21.839 because I felt like I didn't have a normal grief. Um, 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:24.160 I was in such shocked. I didn't feel anything for 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:26.840 a while, and people would call me. You know, I 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:29.520 got dozens and dozens of phone calls within the first 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:32.560 day of everybody finding out, and it was like, how 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:34.840 are you doing? People would tell me what I was 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:36.960 feeling instead of just asking, Oh, you must be on 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:39.800 the ground sobbing, you must be this, you must be that. 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:41.920 And because I wasn't any of those things, I thought 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:44.240 I must be evil and the sociopaths and things wrong 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:47.160 with me, and you know, and then when I would 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.240 tell people I'm kind of in shocked, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:52.040 Well once you're out of shock, you will be wailing 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:54.160 and screaming and crying and it's and then just that 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:58.559 never happened, and so we talked a lot about how 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:01.559 to let others grieve, you know, and not grief shame, 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:03.319 which is something that came up during the pandemic, or 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:04.920 what are you grieving about? You know, you have a 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:07.679 job and you're fine, or you know you're not allowed 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:09.840 to grieve because you know you're not the worst case 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:14.439 scenario in this scenario, or or there's no right way 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:18.880 to grief. But anxiety is a huge part of grief. Suddenly, 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:22.360 you know, we talked about how people going through grief 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:26.439 might develop panic attacks or hypochondria or social anxiety. And 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:31.760 what I found mind blowing was that what Clear wrote 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:34.160 about in her book is that the five stages of 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:37.840 grief were initially written about people who were dying, not 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:41.800 for the grieving, and so there needs to be this 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:45.520 sixth stage, which is anxiety, because I never knew the 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:48.440 five stages of grief were initially just for the dying. 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:50.600 So that kind of blew my mind and really and 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:53.400 made me realize that we need to look at grief 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:54.679 in a whole new way. So I hope you get 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:57.800 a lot out of this episode. Um, you know, I 0:10:57.840 --> 0:10:59.600 feel like it's a little bit of a heavy topic 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:01.559 for this holiday season, but I almost feel like it's 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:05.040 perfect because I'm sure we've all lost people in our 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:07.280 lives in the holiday season brings that up, or we 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:09.640 have our own grief about I don't even know. Maybe 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:12.360 you dread the new year coming up because you're supposed 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:15.920 to have achieved all of these things last year and 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:17.720 look ahead to the next. And I don't know if 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:20.000 that kind of thing brings up grief for me, even 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:22.200 though it's not just the you know, grief doesn't just 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:26.360 mean somebody died. And we have a really fun conversation 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:28.080 at the end where we talk about how we wish 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:30.920 we could talk about death at dinner parties at grocery stores. 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:34.400 So I think you will enjoy this episode. As heavy 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:36.240 as it sounds like it's going to be, I actually 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:40.240 found it really light and really affirming and really lovely. 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:43.640 So I'll tell you a little bit about my guest today, 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:47.040 Claire Bidwell Smith. She's an American therapist and an author 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:51.520 who specializes in grief. She has written a memoir called 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:55.040 the Rules of Inheritance, and she has another book called 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:57.080 After This When Life Is Over, Where Do We Go? 0:11:57.800 --> 0:11:59.920 And her latest book that is The focus of this 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:04.680 interview anxiety, the Missing Stage of Grief. She also has 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:10.120 a podcast called The New Day Podcast, and every week 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:12.400 she tries to find a way to make life a 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:15.240 little better so that you do not have to suffer 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:18.800 in silence. Maybe you're successful but miserable at work. Maybe 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:21.160 you have the perfect family on Instagram, but you're at 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:23.000 each other's throats in real life. Or maybe you can't 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:24.920 even put your finger on what feels weird, but you 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:27.200 know you deserve more. Whatever it is, You're not alone. 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:31.440 Hosted by renowned grief expert and therapist Clear Bidwell Smith, 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.680 New Day offers easy actions you can try to keep 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:39.160 moving forward. And Claire is a grief expert as I 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:43.080 talked about, and she does lead programs for grief in 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:46.120 addition to working with people one on one, led by 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:50.920 her work in hospice and private practice. So let's talk 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:58.000 to Claire Bidwell Smith. My guest today is Claire build 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:03.080 Will Smith, author of Aniety, the Missing Stage of Grief and, 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:06.120 as the description says, taking a step beyond Elizabeth Coogler 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:09.960 Ross is widely accepted five stages of grief. Anxiety, the 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:13.200 Missing Stage of Grief explains the intimate connection between death 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:17.720 and grief and how they specifically cause anxiety. Unpacking everything 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:20.680 from our age old fears about mortality to the bear 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:24.839 vulnerability a loss can make us feel welcome. Claire, thank 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:27.520 you for being on Anxiety Bites with me. Thanks Jan 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.920 thanks for having me in your book. You mentioned that 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:34.280 people should do anxiety level checkens as they're reading it, 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:38.000 and so I wanted to have you explained first what 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:41.880 that is and if you could take our listeners through 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:45.080 one in case listening to this very episode might spike 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:48.360 some anxiety for them. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, I think 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:50.920 that's the funny thing about anxiety, or the slippery thing 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:53.760 about it, is that we can have anxiety about our anxiety, 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:58.280 and talking about anxiety can make us anxious. However, the 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:00.880 way to work on anxiety is to talk about it, 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.040 is to look at it and to lean into it. 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:05.959 But it kind of just gets scary in the beginning, right, 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:08.800 And then the more familiar you become with talking about it, 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:11.200 with looking at it, the easier it gets. But in 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:12.800 the beginning we just kind of want to slam the 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:14.840 door on it when we when we think about it 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:18.559 or talk about it. But knowing how to just start 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:20.880 getting familiar with it is the way to get a 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:23.840 grip on it. I don't think it's possible to fully 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.200 get rid of anxiety, and I would love to think 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:28.360 it is. I would love for that to be true. 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.560 But in all the research I've done personally my own 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:34.760 anxiety and with people I've talked to and clients I've 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:37.160 worked with, you know, we don't get rid of it completely, 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:38.560 but we can learn how to manage it, and we 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:40.640 can learn how to how to be with it, you know, 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:43.560 but that requires talking about it. So if somebody's listening 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:45.360 right now and they're thinking, oh my gosh, I make 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:47.960 it really anxious during this episode. I've lost someone recently, 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:50.440 would you is there anything you advise them to do 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:53.120 while they're listening or before they sit down to listen, 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:57.680 Just take some breaths, Maybe maybe listen during a time 0:14:57.680 --> 0:14:59.880 when you know when you're finished. You can do some 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:02.120 thing that to support yourself, whether you're going to be 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:04.640 with a family member or a friend, or be able 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.760 to call somebody, um, or just kind of go into it. 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:10.720 Prepping yourself like this may stir up some anxiety for me, 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:13.800 that's okay. UM. One of the ways we start to 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:16.200 work out anxiety is to kind of externalize it, you know, 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:18.480 so to think of it as this separate thing. It's not. 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:21.600 We are not the anxiety, and it is a thing 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:24.760 that happens and that comes into our room, you know. Um. 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:27.240 So thinking about it that way, like, Okay, anxiety is 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:28.680 going to come in the room with me as I 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:32.120 listened to this, and that's okay, I'm okay. Um, So 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:35.520 kind of recognizing it, Yeah, that's so smart. I think 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.640 we do so many things unconsciously. You know, throw on 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:42.080 a podcast, drive to work, you know, and now you're 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:44.360 stuck in traffic on the freeway and and that might 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:46.680 cause some anxiety, and now you're listening to this podcast 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:48.960 of an anxiety and then you just get to work 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:51.160 and begin your day. And there was no calm down 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:53.400 in a way, you know, there was no book ending 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:55.680 about it. I think that's smart to think about when 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:58.800 we take in information. Yeah, I mean I think about 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:00.800 this a lot. People ask me a lot about about 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:03.760 anxiety and whether or not it's increasing in our culture, 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:06.040 and the answer is yes. Um. But I think one 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:08.360 of the reasons for that is because we wake up 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:10.280 in the morning and the first thing we do pretty 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:11.960 much all of us is look at our phone right 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:13.760 before we're even out of bed. We haven't gotten out 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:15.640 of bed, we haven't talked to the person laying next 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:18.160 to us, if there is one. Now we're looking at 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:21.200 our phone, and in the sixty seconds that we're looking 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:23.760 at our phone, we're downloading so much information, a lot 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:27.080 of anxiety provoking, right like what the president said last night, 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:30.280 what happened overseas somewhere, what our best friend made for breakfast, 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:33.720 that we're never going to achieve in our perfect goals. 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:36.600 So like we're just creating anxiety before we've even gotten 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:38.640 out of bed in the morning. So I think being 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:43.560 more intentional about information that we take in is important. Yeah, well, 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:46.080 and getting right into your book. I it blew my 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:48.640 mind when I read this, because I think we're all 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:51.320 familiar with the five stages of grief, and can you 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:56.560 tell me what those are? The traditional ones denial, anger, bargaining, depression, 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:59.800 and acceptance. Okay, And so now we're adding anxiety to it. 0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:02.040 And what you said in your book is those five 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:06.000 stages of grief, they are for people who are dying. 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:08.680 It was not meant to be a model of grieving 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:12.200 for the people who are alive and grieving the death 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:15.840 of someone, And that blew my mind. I don't know 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:18.040 if anybody has ever said that before, if you're the 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:20.040 first to note it, or if I just never heard it, 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:23.280 but that really helps. It is something that most people 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:25.919 don't realize. Elizabeth Coogler Ross I love her. If you 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:28.360 look into who she was at all, she was like 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:31.840 such a bucking rebel, a pioneer. She was doing stuff 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:33.879 and talking about things that nobody else was in the 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:37.199 nineteen sixties as a female physician UM, and she was 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:40.720 really interested in dying patients in this hospital in Chicago 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.800 where she was working, and all the other doctors and 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:46.760 staff were very dismissive of people who were dying and 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:50.000 of their experience. They were just treating them physically, and 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:52.240 she was very curious about, like what was happening for 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:54.800 them UM on an emotional level, and so she started 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:57.280 to speak with them and she came up with this 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:02.119 um these five stages that they were going through nial, anger, bargaining, depression, 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:04.840 and then acceptance, which make a lot of sense if 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:08.359 you're facing death, right, they actually do often happen in 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:11.320 that linear order. The five stages were so swept away 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:13.560 by our culture that she then began to apply them 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:15.679 to the grief process. There is a book, you know, 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:18.359 on grief and grieving. It has the five stages in it. 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:22.439 So these five stages were then applied by her to 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:26.040 to the grief process. But even she admitted that they 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:29.600 aren't meant to be this perfect formula, and they often 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.040 don't work in a linear fashion in the kind of 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:34.679 same way that they did for the dying process. But 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:37.359 our culture loves them. We love the five stages. We 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:39.879 can't get away from them. And I think it's partly 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:43.160 because it would be great if there were a formula. Right, 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:45.480 You're in some of the biggest pain you've ever been 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:47.800 in in your life. You're grieving the loss of someone 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:50.280 you love, and you are looking for any way to 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:52.479 not feel this way, and you're like, great, five stages. 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:54.560 I'm gonna go through these five and then I'm gonna 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:57.359 feel better. Right. That's why I think we've gotten stuck 0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:00.679 with these five stages. I've heard you anytime i've been 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:04.240 grieving something. Oh, it's not linear, So don't worry if 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:06.200 one day you feel like you're an acceptance and then 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:09.680 you're angry again, and and and that is helpful. But 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:13.600 for me, I it's reading your book made me realize 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:17.399 I had this notion during the pandemic that I mean, 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:19.000 I know we're still in it, but I mean the 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:22.159 very very early stages of lockdown that I was, um, 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:23.679 you know, I had heard about your work and I 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:25.920 was thinking about, Yeah, that makes so much sense that 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:28.800 anxiety is such a part of grief, because I think, 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:31.520 even if it's not the death of someone, the grief 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:35.000 of life changing, you lose a job, you have a breakup, 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:39.040 anything I think can cause anxiety. And I think the 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:43.720 way we see people acting these days, you know, whether 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:46.679 it's someone freaking out on an airplane, is they have 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:48.320 to wear a mask or we just see a lot 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:52.359 of pain, I think people are having anxiety about grieving. 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:55.679 The notion that oh, wow, you know, we've never been 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.679 through anything like this before. There's suddenly this disease spreading 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:01.400 around the world, and and most of our lives were 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:03.560 pretty comfortable and and and not just to say the 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.240 pandemic everything can cause us to grief. But I really 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:08.160 feel like I saw a lot of anxiety and then 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:12.760 that must be grief deep down in a way, right, Yeah, 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:15.520 it's a big mix of both. I mean, loss is 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:20.879 about transition, and transition creates anxiety. We have a lot 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:24.240 of anxiety about change. Um. We are a very adaptable species, 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:27.439 but we also resist change and we get afraid. Um. 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:29.600 But we like to get comfortable, you know, get routines 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:31.640