1 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: October thirtieth, nineteen seventy four. Kinshasa zaiir. 2 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 2: Here comes the Ali people out of the dressing room. 3 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 2: This is an awesome bar of George Foreman against the 4 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 2: varleyd boxing skills of Muhammad Ali. 5 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: Thirty two year old Muhammad Ali strides through the crowd 6 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: and finds his place at the center of the ring 7 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 1: for his title fight against the reigning heavyweight champion of 8 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: the World, George Foreman. Their heavyweight title bout is considered 9 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: by many to be the greatest sporting event of all time. 10 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:49,279 Speaker 1: But what's less well known is that five weeks earlier, 11 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: in that very same stadium, James Brown headlined an epic 12 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: three day long pre fight music festival. This unique event 13 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: brought blackham American musicians like BB King and Bill Withers 14 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: to share the same stage with Afro Caribbean acts such 15 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: as Celia Cruz and African megastars like Miriam Mikiba and 16 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: Hugh Masekela. 17 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 3: All the biggest Black artist on the planet due a 18 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 3: concert for this fight. 19 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,960 Speaker 1: It was a musical homecoming for these musicians of the diaspora. 20 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: But all this black excellence in one stadium in Zaire 21 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 1: during a hot autumn in nineteen seventy four. How did 22 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: this come to be well? The two events were both 23 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 1: orchestrated and stage managed by, believe it or not, an 24 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: African dictator, Mabutu Seysei Siku. 25 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 4: Mubuchu is a darling of the West tied to nationalism 26 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 4: as a way to consolidate his power. 27 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: His full name was Kuku and Bindu Waza Benga. Translated 28 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: into English, it means the all powerful war who, because 29 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: of his endurance and inflexible will to win, goes from 30 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: conquest to conquest, leaving fire. 31 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 5: In his wake. 32 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: Once the Belgian Congo, Mabutu had rechristened his homeland as Zayir, 33 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: That was the man who was running things well, him 34 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: and the famously colorful boxing promoter Don King. The fight 35 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: and the music festival were originally scheduled for the same 36 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: weekend to be televised across the globe. A music festival 37 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 1: to warm up the crowds and to reinforce the ascendants 38 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: of black culture on the world stage to mark the 39 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: reconnection of Black America and the Motherland, then to be 40 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: followed by the heavyweight title fight to crown a new 41 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: world champion for a dictator like Mabutu. It was a 42 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: rather masterful bit of international theater. The music festival was 43 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: called Zaire seventy four, a testimony to the growing power 44 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: and glory of Mabutu and his recently liberated African nation, 45 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: and the championship fight became known as the Rumble in 46 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: the Jungle. But as so often happens, Fate stepped in 47 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: to interrupt the carefully coordinated plans of mice and men 48 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: and Central African dictators. Fate also had plans for the 49 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: man called the People's champ. 50 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 6: We were scared to death for Ali. The people who 51 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 6: knew about boxing and cared about Ali were really scared 52 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 6: for George Foreman could literally kill him. 53 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: This is the story of what all went down in 54 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: Zaire in nineteen seventy four, how we get there, and 55 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: for so many reasons. This ultimately is a story of 56 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: excellence in the Key of Blackness. 57 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 5: Jane Brown said, Said Lois said, I'm Black and I'm Brown. 58 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: Among the numerous legends told lost moments will also be 59 00:03:58,640 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: revealed in this podcast. 60 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 5: I'm Niko Ali Walsh. 61 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 7: I'm a professional boxer and the Muhammad Ali is my grandfather. 62 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: Intertwined with the cultural milestones will come portraits of greatness 63 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: and accounts of rare humanity. 64 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 5: All the Africans who have been spread around the world, 65 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 5: we know where you are, we haven't lost track of you, 66 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,559 Speaker 5: and we all hid together on this earth. 67 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: All told, this is a tale of many battles, many fights, 68 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: the wars that rage through both African and American cultures 69 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: in this time, and how these conflicts tested people's values 70 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: and convictions brought into sharpest relief in the story of 71 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: one Muhammad Ali. 72 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 4: He was a craftsman with the skill of boxing, and 73 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 4: brilliant a brilliant mind. 74 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: He is our hero and will carry us through all 75 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: the soulful high points, violent lows, cultural chaos, and societal 76 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: craziness to come. 77 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 8: The military, they mutinied. 78 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 9: He will not sir in any capacity in a war 79 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 9: against fellow brown people. 80 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 3: His life was steadily becoming more and more endangered. 81 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,119 Speaker 1: If fighting was the spirit of the times, you could 82 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: say the soul of seventy four was a rumble. Welcome 83 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: to Rumble, the story of Ali Foreman and the Soul 84 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: music of nineteen seventy four. I'm your host Zarren Burnett, 85 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: the third from iHeart Podcast School of humans. This is rumble. 86 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 1: I can't remember a time when I did not know 87 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: about the rumble in the jungle. My pops was a 88 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: huge fan of boxing. He told me this story of 89 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: the Ali form and fight like it was Arthurian legend. 90 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 1: The way he told it elevated their heavyweight bout to 91 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: the level of the champions of old. My pops also 92 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 1: gave me his name. 93 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 5: My name is Zaren W. Burnette Junior. I am a writer, observer, 94 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 5: and chronicler of American history. I particularly focus on African 95 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 5: American history because I'm an African American, but I focus 96 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 5: on American history because I'm an American, and of course 97 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,799 Speaker 5: I'm the father of my son, Zaren Burnett the Third. 98 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: Now, back when I was a boy, when my pops 99 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,799 Speaker 1: told me the story of the young brash Cassius Clay 100 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: taking on the former mob enforcer and leg breaker Sonny Liston, 101 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: it was like hearing about David and Goliath. And my 102 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: pops would also light up whenever he told a story 103 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: about Smokin' Joe Frasier, that was his other favorite boxer. 104 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: But as a kid, I was thrilled by the stories 105 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: about Ali. 106 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 5: When Ali came out, it was kind of an exciting 107 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 5: moment because he fought like a middleweight. He fought like 108 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 5: sugar Ay Robinson. He was real fast, he threw a 109 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 5: lot of punches and get out the wait. 110 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 1: By the time I came into the world, Ali was 111 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: considered the goat, the actual greatest of all time, so 112 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: naturally I was eager to hear his story. Ali was 113 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: like no one else, both inside and outside the ring. 114 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 5: He was a provocateur on purpose. 115 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: The perfect champ of his moment. In every way possible. 116 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: Ali was this new sort of fighter. 117 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 5: We were all young, so it was fun the white 118 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 5: young person coming there and kick all the old guy's asses. 119 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 5: And he was doing all his poetry and he was 120 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 5: telling all his hit It was like wrestling. He made 121 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 5: it like wrestling. 122 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty four. Ali made boxing seem less like 123 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: the mean, old brutal sport of face smashing violence. He 124 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: wasn't part of its dark and smoky, old fashioned past, 125 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: the one that wreaked a cigar smoke and spilled liquor. 126 00:07:55,520 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: Ali's fights felt like the future arriving. His fights were different. 127 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: His style in the ring was different. 128 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 5: He wasn't a puncher, you know, he didn't hurt people anything. 129 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 5: He would beat you about, throwing eighteen punches so fast 130 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 5: that he would just be overwhelmed. 131 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: It always sounded fun, especially how Ali felt like change personified. 132 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 5: This is the early sixties, so this is also the 133 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 5: beginning of the Black power movement. Black young people are 134 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 5: feeling in all kinds of ways. So this is a 135 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 5: black young person who we can get behind. 136 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: These days. When you ask people about Muhammad Ali, especially 137 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: those who actually knew him, you still hear it in 138 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: their voices how Ali was special. 139 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 10: Ali was smart, he was bright, and he was handsome. 140 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 2: Ali was extraordinary in every way. I mean extraordinary boxer, 141 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 2: extraordinarily beautiful person, extraordinarily loquacious, and the master storyteller. 142 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 6: I loved Ali, not just as a fighter, but everything 143 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 6: that he stood for. 144 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 11: Ali is still refreshing because he's real. It's just no 145 00:08:58,160 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 11: bullshit about the guy. 146 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 7: Ali is so handsome you want him to win. 147 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: Over the course of his career, Muhammad Ali stayed a 148 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: media presence, and as such, he gave many interviews. It 149 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: seems like the people's champ was always talking, always trying 150 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: to explain himself, and all those interviews revealed that Ali 151 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: was a man of complex motivations, as Ali tried to 152 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: tell the world, he was both the butterfly and the bee. 153 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 4: People in America just find it hard to take a 154 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 4: fighters seriously. They don't know that I'm using boxing for 155 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 4: the sake of getting over certain points you couldn't get 156 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 4: over without it. Being a fighter enables me to attain 157 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 4: certain ends. I'm not doing this for the glory of fighting, 158 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 4: but to change a lot of things. 159 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: That's a quote of Muhammad Ali from the book The 160 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: Fight by Norman Mahler. It's about the rumble in the jungle. 161 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: Mahler was a prolific fan of boxing, and, like many 162 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: of us, a huge fan of Muhammad Ali. In particular. 163 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: In the first chapter of the Mahler attempted to convey 164 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: what it was like to be in the presence of 165 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: the people's champ. 166 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 10: There's always a shock in seeing him again, not lives 167 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 10: in television, but standing before you, looking his best. Then 168 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 10: the world's greatest athlete is in danger of being our 169 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 10: most beautiful man, and the vocabulary of the camp is 170 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 10: doomed to appear. Women draw an audible breath, men look down. 171 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 10: They are reminded again of their lack of worth. If 172 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 10: Ali never opened his mouth to quiver the jellies of 173 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 10: public opinion, he would still inspire love and hate, for 174 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 10: he is the prince of Heaven, so says the silence 175 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 10: around his body when he is luminous. 176 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: In order to truly understand what was at stake for 177 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 1: Muhammad Ali in nineteen seventy four when he stepped into 178 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,359 Speaker 1: that ring against Foreman in Zayir, we must first understand 179 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: that Ali at the time was. 180 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 9: The hero of the moment, the great freedom fighter, the 181 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 9: person who would challenge American policy, who would represent freedom 182 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 9: for African Americans. 183 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: No matter where you looked in nineteen seventy four, the 184 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: sense of a fight about to burst out anywhere everywhere 185 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: was rolling through the culture like thunder. It was a 186 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: time of upheaval. To anyone paying attention, it was abundantly 187 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: clear the world was changing fast. Some folks were busy 188 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: fighting against that change. Others were out protesting and organizing 189 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: to fight to advance it. The rest were caught in 190 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: the middle. The war in Vietnam had reached the peak 191 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: of its unpopularity. After a decade of body bags sent 192 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: home to the United States with little to show for 193 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: their sacrifices. There were groups like the Weather Underground and 194 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: their terror campaign of homemade bombs. OPEC announced an oil embargoed, 195 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: effectively crippling the oil driven economies of the West. News 196 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 1: cameras recorded the effect for everyday Americans. High and priceikes 197 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: at the grocery store, memorable blocks, long lines formed at 198 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: gas stations. This is when the Detroit carmakers began to 199 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: lose ground to the compact cars built in Japan. The 200 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: steel plants were closing, Big factories were shuttered. Layoffs in 201 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: industries across the board were daily headlines. Many cities were crumbling. 202 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: The site of them could inspire dystopian fiction. Things did 203 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: not appear promising for the American experiment. Even the President, 204 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: Richard Nixon, spent his days battling for his political life. 205 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 7: It was almost two years ago. In June nineteen seventy two, 206 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 7: the five men into the Democratic National Committee headquarters in Washington. 207 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 7: It turned out that they were connected with my reelection committee. 208 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: Now he still didn't believe it in the spring of 209 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 1: seventy four, but Watergate that was a fight Nixon was 210 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: bound to lose. Meanwhile, there was the People's chamt Muhammad Ali. 211 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 6: Standing for principles and willing to give up everything for 212 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 6: his principles. 213 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 1: And there was the heavyweight champion of the world, George Foreman. 214 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 2: Very serious and quiet, incredibly confident. He was gonna talk 215 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 2: with his gloves, not with his mouth. 216 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,439 Speaker 1: The two men were bound to fight. Everyone knew it. 217 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 1: It was just a matter of time. 218 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 3: What was going on in the world at the time 219 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 3: made this fight as important that anything else is going 220 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 3: on on the planet. So even if you don't fuck 221 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 3: with this, if this is not your first language, you 222 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 3: need to be here. 223 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 1: This show is about so much more than Muhammad Ali, 224 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: the man, the fighter, the cultural icon. Yet he is 225 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: the focus, and so it is with him, the people's 226 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: champ where our episodic journey begins. 227 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,599 Speaker 5: They float like a butterflies thing, like a bit. You 228 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 5: gotta be a damn food to get in the ring 229 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 5: with me. 230 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: He was born Cassius Marcellus Clay Junior in Louisville, Kentucky, 231 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: on January seventeenth, nineteen forty two. 232 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 9: He grew up in a border state. The worst of 233 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 9: segregation passed him by. Although Louisville was segregated in neighborhoods, 234 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 9: most schools, parks, public spaces. But African Americans had the 235 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 9: vote and some labor power and were able to mitigate 236 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 9: the worst of the segregation of that era. Still, he 237 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 9: could look forward to less than full rights as a 238 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 9: human being. 239 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: That's Lewis Ehrenberg, author of Rumble in the Jungle, one 240 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: of the definitive books on the Ali Foreman fight and 241 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: Ali's place in boxing history. He is a fount of 242 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: all things Ali, As Ehrenberg explains, by the time Ali 243 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: was a young boy, he already fully understood the force 244 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: racism played in reducing the potential of his parents' lives 245 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: under Jim Crow. For Ali, his father. 246 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 9: In particular, was a very unhappy guy who he wanted 247 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 9: to be an artist. He ended up a sign painter. 248 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 9: It was difficult for him to earn a living. 249 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: Cassius Clay's parents warned to their son about the risks 250 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: he'd face in life, not just economic and professional, but 251 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: from believing himself to be free. After all, lynching's were 252 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: still a very real threat in the forties and fifties. 253 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 9: His father regaled him with tales of how African Americans 254 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 9: were treated when they stepped outside the black community, including 255 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 9: the fire bombing of a home bought by a black 256 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 9: family in a white neighborhood. 257 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: Now you might be asking yourself, as I wondered. Raised 258 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: with ugly racist violence as a constant threat, why would 259 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: young Casius Clay want to pick up boxing gloves. 260 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 4: At twelve years old? Someone stole my bicycle. I went 261 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 4: to a home show where the display cars and refrigerators 262 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 4: and household utensils and everything. And I went there and 263 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 4: I left my bicycle outside and came out. It was 264 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 4: drizzling rain that night, Saturday evening, about nine o'clock. My 265 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 4: bicycle was gone. I just got it for Christmas. I 266 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 4: asked somebody with the closest police officer, and they said 267 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 4: in the same building. I just came out. 268 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: Young Cassius Clay went back inside and he founded the 269 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: officer who would go on to become an integral person 270 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: in his formative years. The CoP's name. 271 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 4: Joe Martin, was training amateur boxes in a room about 272 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 4: this size, and he asked me to take out an 273 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 4: application and learned how to fight so I could beat 274 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 4: the fellow up in a joking fashion who stole my bicycle? 275 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 12: So I started boxing. 276 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: Ironically, a white cop teaching a young black boy to 277 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: fight was seen at the time to be a way 278 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: to keep him on the straight and narrow. His parents 279 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: were relieved because it kept young Cashius Clay from getting 280 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: caught up in any street crime or random trouble. Now 281 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: he had a focus. This marked the beginning of Cassius 282 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: Clay's road to future greatness, a road that was documented 283 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 1: by his most authoritative biographer. 284 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 11: My name is Jonathan Iig, and I am a writer 285 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 11: and the author of the Muhammad Ali biography called ali Alife. 286 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: Early on in the research and construction of the narrative, 287 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: I was struck with one question. 288 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,360 Speaker 11: What made this kid think he could be special? First 289 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 11: of all, he just seems to have this appetite for 290 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 11: attention from a very early age, before he can talk, 291 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 11: you know, he's just standing up in the crib and 292 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:44,959 Speaker 11: in the stroller, just wants everybody to look at him 293 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 11: all the time. And then when he gets to school 294 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 11: he has dyslexia. He doesn't really know it, but he 295 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 11: discovers that he can't really get the attention for his schoolwork. 296 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 11: He's not as good as he should be in terms 297 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,400 Speaker 11: of you know, reading, writing, and arithmetic. But he can 298 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 11: make people laugh and he can make people pay attention 299 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 11: with his wordplay, and he seems to really need that, 300 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 11: so I think that's a key too. When he discovers boxing, 301 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 11: he doesn't really show what he interested in other sports 302 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 11: because it's not enough of a spotlight for him. I 303 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 11: guess boxing it's if you're the one winning, you're the 304 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 11: one getting all the attention. 305 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 1: And he was good, like so good that when the 306 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: fledgling fighter wanted to get on a local Louisville TV 307 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: show called Tomorrow's Champions Piece of k done, he moved 308 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: on to new goals, bigger goals. Casius Clay became an 309 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: amateur boxer on the rise. He won the Golden Gloves, 310 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: he won the National AAU, and eventually he qualified for 311 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixty Olympics. He would travel to Rome to 312 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 1: represent the United States on the world stage, and he 313 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: won the goal. He was only eighteen years old when 314 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: he returned home to the American South. It took him 315 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 1: only a few days to realize winning gold for the 316 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 1: US of A did next to nothing to change how 317 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: he was treated in Louisville, Kentucky. 318 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:12,479 Speaker 4: It made me popular for a few days, but I 319 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 4: wanted to do something good with it. So I went downtown. 320 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 4: At the time, black people was marching to eat in 321 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 4: the white restaurants. They wanted rights to go where they 322 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 4: wanted to. And I said, so I'll take this medal 323 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 4: and I'll go downtown and I'll sit down at the restaurant. 324 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 4: I got him on the spot now, and then I'll 325 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 4: order something to eat. So I go downtown and I 326 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 4: have the medalon, and the lady was looking and I said, 327 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 4: I'd like a cheeseburger. She said, we don't serve negroes. 328 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 4: I said, and I don't eat them either. Just give 329 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 4: me the cheeseburger. 330 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: That's one version of the story Ali would later tell. 331 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: There were a couple others, like how Ali. 332 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 9: Went into a bar and the owner chased him out 333 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 9: even though Cassius Clay was wearing the metal. He also 334 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 9: said that he was chased out of the bar by bikers, 335 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 9: white bikers. 336 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,360 Speaker 1: Then there was the story about the Ohio River. This 337 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: river held specific meaning. It had always been the line 338 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: that demarketed freedom when black people were enslaved in America. 339 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: Those close knew, if you can cross the Ohio, you free. 340 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 9: Now a whole legend has grown up around this. He 341 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 9: was so bitter, he threw his medal away. It's just 342 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 9: not clear what happened to the metal. He may have 343 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 9: just misplaced it, but he definitely stopped wearing it. 344 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: The way he tells it, Young Cashius Clay, well, he 345 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: took his gold medal and tossed it right into that 346 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: river and proclaimed himself free. And the river was his witness. 347 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: In his hometown of Louisville, segregation didn't stop local white 348 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: businessmen from making money off a piece of Young Cashu's clay. 349 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 1: If anything, That's what the South was best at, finding 350 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: ways to profit off a black body while limiting what 351 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: that same person could do with their body. It didn't 352 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 1: take long for Louisville moneymen to see dollar signs in 353 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 1: the form of Cash's clay. 354 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 9: Once he won the gold medal as a light heavyweight 355 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:24,159 Speaker 9: at the nineteen sixty Olympics, he attracted the attention of 356 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 9: various white businessmen in Louisville. The owners of distilleries, newspapers, 357 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 9: et cetera, who put up money for his training, put 358 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 9: money in for bank account that would accrue earnings over time, 359 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 9: and in fact, Clay had a boost that few not 360 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 9: only African American athletes, but any American athlete had. He 361 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 9: was like the first corporate athlete. 362 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: What those white businessmen did not expect is that Ali 363 00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: was going to do Ali as a kid, Cash's love 364 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: to watch the pro wrestler Gorgeous George perform on local 365 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 1: Louisville TV. He studied how Gorgeous George hyped up an 366 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,679 Speaker 1: upcoming match, boasting about what all he planned to do 367 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: next time he was in the ring. His hyperbolic bravado 368 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: stayed with Cassius Clay. He later said, you know. 369 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 4: He makes a lot of money with that kind of talk. 370 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 4: I'm gonna be like him and liven up the fight game. 371 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: Notable fight writer, best selling sports biographer, and ESPN commentator 372 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 1: Mark Krigel believes that Gorgeous George's influence was absolutely key 373 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: to who Ali would become as a boxer and as 374 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: his own hype man. 375 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 12: If you look at the wrestling construct, it's not an 376 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 12: accident that Muhammad Ali said that he learned from Gorgeous George. 377 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 12: I mean, Gorgeous George himself is like a very American archetype, 378 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:56,919 Speaker 12: and Ali used that stuff. Glitz, the razzle, the braggadocio, 379 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 12: whatever you want to call it. He used that to 380 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 12: connect with the audience. And the audience can hate you, 381 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 12: they can love you, but they can't feel neutral, and 382 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 12: that was part of Ali's genius. 383 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: Ali seized on the symbolic power inherent in the narratives 384 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 1: of pro wrestling. 385 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 12: You can't understand boxing. I don't think you can understand 386 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 12: American culture without understanding wrestling, and wrestling as a construct 387 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 12: requires a couple of things. 388 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 1: You need a babyface and a heel. The babyface is 389 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: the protagonist, the hero. 390 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 12: The protagonist needs to have that great, resourceful sense of narcissism. 391 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 12: It would help them measurably if he has a sense 392 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 12: of humor, which Ali had in abundance. 393 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: And the heel is, of course the antagonist the villain. 394 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 1: But you need other dynamics and a role playing for 395 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: the wrestling construct to be compelling. 396 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 12: The protagonist, the leading man, whether he's the heel of 397 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 12: the babyface, usually has a valet. For a great part 398 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 12: of Ali's career, that was co Cell. 399 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: As in the legendary sports commentator Howard Cosell and Cossell. 400 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 1: He was the star of. 401 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 12: All those wide world of sports broadcasts that went into 402 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 12: everyone's living room. There was co Cell this like kind 403 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 12: of goofy Jewish guy from Brooklyn. What's he doing there? 404 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 12: But he's got some sort of rapport with Ali and 405 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 12: it was comic, but it was also meaningful and no 406 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 12: one had seen that before. 407 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 1: Now, along with the valet, a wrestling hero also needs 408 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: a hype man. 409 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 12: What he didn't have until Zayir was the ring master, 410 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 12: the barnum, another narcissist at the center of the ring, 411 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 12: screaming and yelling, you know, selling tickets. Come see this, 412 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 12: Come one, come all. It's a freak show. It's crazy. 413 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 12: It's a race war. It's not a race war. It's brutality. 414 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 12: You'll never see this again. Whatever, It is a shameless 415 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 12: presence in the center of the ring, and that, of 416 00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 12: course is Don King. 417 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 1: The impress Sorio of the fight game. Don King had 418 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: the same love and talent for spectacle, much like Ali. 419 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,640 Speaker 1: He also could elevate boxing with his flare for storytelling. 420 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: But Don King also represents the more sinister side of boxing, 421 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 1: the mob connections and fixed fights that dark past we 422 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier. It was still the norm when Ali was 423 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: coming up, but again, Ali was different at. 424 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 12: The end of the day. One of the things that 425 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 12: got him over certainly with the American public and probably 426 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 12: around the world, was a sense of humor. 427 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 5: But that's not all. 428 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 1: Ali also had one other key aspect to his character. 429 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 12: The second thing, and maybe the most important thing, was 430 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 12: his undeniable courage, and that is the revelation of Zayir. 431 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: The Rumble in the Jungle takes place in nineteen seventy four, 432 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: but you cannot really understand what all goes down in 433 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:05,160 Speaker 1: that boxingering in Zaire without first understanding what Muhammad Ali 434 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: stood to win, or rather to regain in that title fight. 435 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 1: Thus we must go back to nineteen sixty four, when 436 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: a young Cassius Clay first stood in the ring fighting 437 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: for his chance to claim the title of heavyweight Champion 438 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,919 Speaker 1: of the World. Cassius Clay was up against a serious, 439 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: real life villain. As Lewis Ehrenberg recalled the champ at 440 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: the time. 441 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 9: Sonny Liston was a bad man. I mean that is 442 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 9: bad in the folkloric sense. He was so good he 443 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 9: was bad. 444 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: Sonny Liston went to prison for armed robbery, sent to 445 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: a hell hole that Time magazine once described as quote 446 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: the bloodiest forty seven acres in America. Yet Liston thrived 447 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: in that gladiator pit. In fact, his future in the 448 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: fight game first opened up to him while he was 449 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: locked up. The way my pops told. 450 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 5: It to me, he was boxeding and wound guys who 451 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 5: fixed who arranged spouts, bringing in other fighters to fight. 452 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 5: The prisoners saw Liston fight, said that's the man we 453 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 5: need to They went back talk to the boys, got 454 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 5: in parolled parole from the federal prison and the condition 455 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 5: was to them that you fight for us now. 456 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,679 Speaker 1: The they is the mob, and that also meant Sunny 457 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: Liston had already made job. 458 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 9: And still after coming out of prison, he attracted mob 459 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 9: figures who wanted to help his boxing career and make 460 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 9: money off in at the same time, and Listen began 461 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 9: to rise in the ranks. 462 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 1: Sonny Liston worked collections for the mafia as they waited 463 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: for his fight career to take off. 464 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 9: He was a enforcer for the Saint Louis mob, a 465 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 9: leg breaker and a fearsome guy. 466 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 5: You know when they say a leg breaker, Listen actually 467 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 5: would break the leg with his fists. He would he 468 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 5: would stretch your leg across two chairs and punch the 469 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 5: shinbone and break it. He was known for kicking cop 470 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 5: of acid. He beat a cop inality one time, took 471 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 5: his gun and walked away, just left and land there. 472 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 5: So then and then didn't he run handing on a 473 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 5: yellow sweater. Papers is looking for a negro on a 474 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,239 Speaker 5: yellow sweater. That's how he found it. He didn't take 475 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 5: it off. 476 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 1: You see why my pops couldn't help but love him. 477 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: Sonny Liston's hands were so large fifteen inches he needed 478 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: custom made boxing gloves. When he sparred, he fought two 479 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 1: and three men at a time. Sonny Liston broke bones 480 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: in the ring. He had no pity or human feeling 481 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 1: about anyone who stepped in the ring with him. Sunny 482 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: Listen was absolutely merciless. Also, Liston famously hated the press. 483 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: While young Cassius Clay took his inspiration from pro wrestling, 484 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: Liston said of himself. 485 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 4: A prize fight is like a cowboy movie that has 486 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 4: to be a. 487 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 5: Good guy and the bad guy. 488 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 3: Only in my cowboy movie, the bad guy always win. 489 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: Good to his word, Liston did win. He became the 490 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: heavyweight champion of the World in nineteen sixty two, and 491 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: for those who don't know boxing's history, this early sixties 492 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: marked a new era for the sport, mostly due to 493 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: the entrance of one man, Muhammad al Lee, then known 494 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: as Cassius Clay. 495 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 9: Nobody took Cassius Clay seriously, especially the way Sonny Liston was. 496 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 9: I mean, just the smile of Cassius Clay made him 497 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 9: a different sort of person. Liston was the scowl, Clay 498 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 9: was the smile. 499 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: And Clay's fast mouth talk did very little to impress 500 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: anyone in the world of boxing. 501 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 9: He attracted a lot of attention. Nobody, however, gave Clay 502 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 9: a chance against Liston. 503 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: Now from my pops, the list In Clay fight was 504 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: a moment when America revealed itself in terms of who 505 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: a person rooted for in the ring. 506 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, that was That was an interesting moment. First, a 507 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 5: lot of people wanted to shut Ali's mouth, Then an 508 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 5: equal to number of people wanted Ali to beat the criminal. 509 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 5: So at that moment, they both were favored by one 510 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 5: faction of America or another. 511 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: For the boxing insiders, though they mostly believed that Cassius Clay. 512 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 9: He seemed too lightweight to be a heavyweight champion, and 513 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 9: people just took him as a bragger. The sports writers 514 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 9: in the black and the White press just felt he 515 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 9: was a bit of a buffoon. 516 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: Cassius Clay did not act the way any professional fighter 517 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: was expected to act, especially a black boxer. Clay was brash, disrespectful, 518 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: he talked over white reporters. What really upset many folks 519 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: black and white was how Casius Clay was a new 520 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: sort of proud black man. 521 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 5: He was a shit talker that was considered poor sportsmanship, 522 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 5: and it was like it was frowned on as calling 523 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 5: unnecessary attention to yourself, you know. So, so he came with, 524 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 5: oh I'm so pretty all that, guys. The people liked 525 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 5: it at first, then he just kept on doing and 526 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 5: then the people in the barbershops would turn on him. 527 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: Where black men gathered, the talk often turned to boxing, 528 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: and Cassius Clay and Sonny Listing Liston's fight skills were admired, 529 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: but the man was hard to love. While Cassius Clay 530 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: was new in the fight game and was fast, but 531 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: just as cocky and always telling the world how pretty 532 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: he was. For the workaday men of the era, regardless 533 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: of race, talk like that made him hard to love 534 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: for his own reasons. The champ Sonny Listen wouldn't ever 535 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: agree to fight the new Lippy contender, So in order 536 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: to get his chance at a title fight. 537 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 9: Cassius Clay has to follow Listen around. Listen just doesn't 538 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 9: take him seriously, but Cassius Clay tracks him down, ridicules 539 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 9: him in public shows no respect. 540 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: Cassius Clay showed up whenever and wherever he could find 541 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: Sonny Listing. Then he'd mock Listen to his face as 542 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 1: Clay's young fans laughed at the spectacle. Cashus Clay knew 543 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: one sure way he could get a fight was to 544 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: piss off Sonny Listen. No one else thought that was 545 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: a good idea. It worked, though, Sonny Liston agreed to 546 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: a title fight in Miami in the spring of sixty four. 547 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: This first title fight tells us a great deal about 548 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: where all Lee is going to go, both inside and 549 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: outside the ring. Not only that, it also almost mirrors 550 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: the events of the Rumble in the Jungle, and all 551 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: Lee said as much to the legendary sports broadcaster Howard 552 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: Cosell in an interview in the days just before he 553 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: stepped into the ring for the Rumble in the Jungle. 554 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 4: This present fight with George Foreman is only a reflection 555 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 4: on my past fight with Sonny Liston. 556 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: There was one other key parallel for the two title fights. 557 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 9: And they thought he was going to be killed in 558 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 9: the ring. 559 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty four, Cassius Klay faces Sunny Liston in 560 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: a championship bout in Miami, Florida. In nineteen seventy four, 561 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: Muhammad Ali faces George Foreman in a championship bout in 562 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: Kinshasa's Zaiir to Muhammad Ali the boxer in both fights, 563 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: it was one story, one long fight to regain his crown, 564 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: But he was two very different men in nineteen sixty 565 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: four and nineteen seventy four. He changed in those ten years, 566 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: just as the whole world would change dramatically in many 567 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: ways thanks to Ali. In Norman Mahler's book The Fight, 568 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: the author focused on the value of emotion to young 569 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: Casshiu's clay. 570 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 10: Part of Ali's strength in the ring was fidelity to 571 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 10: his mood. If when speaking to the press, a harsh 572 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 10: and hysterical tone intoed his voice as easily as other 573 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 10: men would light a cigarette. He was never frantic in 574 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 10: the ring, at least not since the fight with Liston 575 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 10: in Mya in nineteen sixty four. 576 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: There were many men who were integral to Casius Clay's rise, 577 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 1: like his trainer Angelo Dundee, who will meet later. But 578 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: few were more colorful or more ever present than his cornerman, 579 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 1: Drew Bundini Brown. He was like a second heart. 580 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 5: True. 581 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 9: Bundini Brown was a guy who came out of the 582 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 9: boxing world. I mean he hung around boxing, He hung 583 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 9: around nightlife. He hooks up with Muhammad Ali early on 584 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 9: and it helps Aali challenge the accepted ways that a 585 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 9: black champion should behave. 586 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 6: And I got to hang out with him a little bit. 587 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 6: He was a very fascinating guy. 588 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: That's Gary Stromberg. He's a huge fan of the fight game. 589 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: And also I. 590 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 6: Did the public relations for festival in Zaire. 591 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: And he recalls well his time spent with and near 592 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: Bundini Brown. It was self evident Bundini loved Ali. 593 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 6: I got to watch it and that was really impactful 594 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 6: to me to watch how much he loved him. He 595 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 6: loved him like a father, you know. I got to 596 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 6: go to training a couple of times and watching Bundini 597 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 6: watch Ali take punches, he suffered for it was like 598 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 6: a father watching his son. If Ali said something that 599 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:30,439 Speaker 6: was hurtful or somebody was insulting Ali or in any 600 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,879 Speaker 6: kind of situation that was impactful to Ali, Bundini would 601 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 6: get emotional about it, and if he would cry, I 602 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:39,479 Speaker 6: thought he was a remarkable guy. 603 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 1: Bondini Brown was not only Ali's cornerman and his hype man. 604 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,840 Speaker 5: He was like your own personal cheerleader. And he was 605 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 5: a trainer. He worked with Angelo Dundee, but he was 606 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:51,280 Speaker 5: like a psychological coach. 607 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: Bondini Brown was also the man who first got Ali 608 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,879 Speaker 1: spouting poetry and dropping his famous bars, his taunting couple 609 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 1: about his opponents. As Jonathan Ig notes. 610 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 11: Bundini was Ali's muse in a way, and his tormentor 611 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 11: and his best friend. And you know, Ali was a 612 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 11: great rhymer, but Bundini was better and really helped him 613 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 11: polish his act. 614 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: The memorable taunts of Bundini gave more sting to all 615 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,359 Speaker 1: these punches in the ring. It's like my pop used 616 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: to tell me. 617 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 5: Bundini Brown he kept Ali focused on on hurting people. 618 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 5: Ali is mean, but I don't think I don't think 619 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 5: he has a natural desire to hurt people. And Bundini 620 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 5: Brown knew he could direct that meanness. 621 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 9: He really went along with all these poetry recitations. 622 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 5: Say like a butterflas thing like the you gotta be 623 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,760 Speaker 5: a damn food to get in it ring with me. Rumble, 624 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 5: young man, rumble, and they would say it face, face 625 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 5: to face. It would be hollering. That shit. That was 626 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 5: that was fun, that was entertainment. 627 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: Keep in mind, this was all new. The idea of 628 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: an influencer was decades away. MTV didn't even exist. No 629 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,320 Speaker 1: one talked about themselves the way Ali did in nineteen 630 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: sixty four. Love it or hate it, the people ate 631 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: it up. And so when young Cashus Clay prepares to 632 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: fight Sunny Listen, Bundini Brown knows his fighter needs the 633 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: sort of energy that only comes from good hype. At 634 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,800 Speaker 1: the Fighter's Way In, separated by police and boxing promoters, 635 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: the two fighters, dressed in their satin boxing robes, square off. 636 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: Young Casius Clay shouts at listen over the heads of cops, Hey, Sonny. 637 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 4: You ain't nothing, You ain't got a chance. 638 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: I'm gonna dance. Then Cashus Clay tells the gathered press. 639 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 4: I predict that somebody will die to not a rightside 640 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 4: from shop. 641 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 9: Clay just uses the way in in a way that 642 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 9: no fighter had to just create havoc and get to listen. Psychologically, 643 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 9: he and Bundini are yelling and screaming at the way 644 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 9: in Rumble young Man, Rumble and roaring, and it just 645 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 9: people think that Clay has gone nuts. 646 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 1: Cashus Clay is so fired up most of the boxing 647 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,880 Speaker 1: press believe the young fighters trying to mask his fears 648 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: of facing sunny Liston. 649 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 9: But then when he gets back to the dressing room, 650 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 9: they take his temperatuist pulse rate and it goes down immediately, 651 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 9: so people have concluded but since then that this was calculated. 652 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 9: He wasn't afraid. He was running a game on listen, 653 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 9: essentially to undermine his confidence. 654 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,400 Speaker 1: You see, Cashus Clay starts to fight his opponents inside 655 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 1: their minds, long before they ever step inside the ring. 656 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,719 Speaker 1: The night of their title fight finally arrives, the stars 657 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: gather in Miami. The world turns its attention to see 658 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,879 Speaker 1: if there will be a new heavyweight champion crown and 659 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: to see if Clay is all talk or not there 660 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,240 Speaker 1: with him. Cassius Clay has another boxing legend at his side, 661 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,880 Speaker 1: his trainer, Angelo Dundee. He runs a historic boxing gym 662 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 1: down in Miami Beach Dundee takes an interest in the 663 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:19,880 Speaker 1: young Olympic champ and helps turn Casius Clay into a 664 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 1: true contender. Now, before the ring bell dings for the 665 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 1: World Heavyweight Championship bout, Dundee knows his guy is ready, 666 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 1: and so on February twenty fifth, nineteen sixty four, Casius 667 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 1: Clay steps into the ring to face Sunny Listing. 668 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 9: It opens with Clay just peppering Listing with jabs and 669 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 9: right crosses. I mean he's moving and grooving, and Listing 670 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 9: is you need to look older and older and clumsier, 671 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 9: which is very surprising because this is a very deadly fighter. 672 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 1: Rounds one through four are close as far as the 673 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: judge's scoring, and the audience is a gay stunned by 674 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: how Cashius Clay is cool as a cucumber in a 675 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,719 Speaker 1: bowl of hot sauce, to quote my man MCA. Now, 676 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,879 Speaker 1: in these first four rounds, Ali keeps the upper hand 677 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: battling against this villain that just about any sane man 678 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,760 Speaker 1: would fear, and then something unexpected happens. 679 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 9: It's only in the fifth round that the bout is 680 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:30,719 Speaker 9: in doubt because something gets in Cassius's eye and he 681 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:32,240 Speaker 9: can't see very well. 682 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: It's a caustic substance. It stings and it burns. Clay 683 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:38,359 Speaker 1: can't see much of anything, so. 684 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 9: He says to his trainer, Angelo Dundee, take off the gloves. 685 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:43,759 Speaker 9: I can't see. 686 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:44,879 Speaker 5: Cut my gloves off. 687 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 4: I want to prove to the world there's dirty work 688 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:48,319 Speaker 4: of foot. 689 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 1: But Dangelo Dundee tells his fighter mid round, whoa, whoa, 690 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: back up, baby, Come on now, this is for the title. 691 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:54,839 Speaker 5: What are you doing? 692 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:55,399 Speaker 8: Sit down? 693 00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, Dundee still needs to figure out what is in 694 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: his boxer's eyes as Dundee tails it, so I get 695 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 1: him down, I get to sponge and I pour the 696 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,120 Speaker 1: water into his eyes, trying to cleanse whatever's there. But 697 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 1: before I did that, I put my pinky in the 698 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 1: eye and I put it into my eye. It burned 699 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,880 Speaker 1: like hell. There was something caustic in both eyes. Dundee 700 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 1: also knows if Cash's Clay doesn't come out of his corner, 701 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 1: the fight will be called. 702 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 9: So Dundee says, you're going out there. You just keep moving. 703 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,600 Speaker 1: Dundee shoves his fighter back out into the ring to 704 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:32,360 Speaker 1: face list it half blinded. 705 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,480 Speaker 9: By the end of the round, it clears and in 706 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,359 Speaker 9: the next round of sixth Clay is hitting him from 707 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 9: all angles and Listening cannot respond, and the fight is stopped. 708 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 1: The ref announces the new heavyweight champion of the world. 709 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 1: Cash's Clay runs to the ropes and shouts at the 710 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:56,960 Speaker 1: press and the news cameras. 711 00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,320 Speaker 5: I shook up the wild. Ah, I shook up the world. 712 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 5: I'm taking the world. 713 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 10: Ah. 714 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 5: Pretty, I'm a bad man. 715 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,359 Speaker 1: He's just twenty two years old. 716 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:13,160 Speaker 9: Cassius Clay becomes the heavyweight champion of the world and 717 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:18,400 Speaker 9: becomes a major cultural and political figure as a result. 718 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,640 Speaker 1: Sonny Liston was a big reason boxing was synonymous with 719 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,359 Speaker 1: the mob in the early sixties. He didn't even try 720 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,960 Speaker 1: to hide it. Liston was also why folks shouted that 721 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,360 Speaker 1: the fix was in when he faced a young Cassius 722 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 1: Clay a second time in nineteen sixty five in Lewiston, Maine. 723 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:43,919 Speaker 1: That fight ended in the first round when Ali threw 724 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,840 Speaker 1: what he called an anchor punch that caught Liston off guard. 725 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 1: Others referred to it as the phantom punch since no 726 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,160 Speaker 1: one really saw it. What they did see was Listen 727 00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: fall down on his back. When he struggled to get 728 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 1: back up, he rolled over and was counted out to 729 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,319 Speaker 1: this day, Folks like my pop, they won't let it go. 730 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,000 Speaker 5: First of all, he didn't beat Saint Listen. That was 731 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,160 Speaker 5: the first I've seen fixed flights in my life, and 732 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 5: that was a fixed fight. I don't give it dwn 733 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 5: what anybody says. Ali never knocked out one more person 734 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 5: with one punch in his whole career, and the one 735 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,920 Speaker 5: he did was Sunny Listen. No, and the odds are 736 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:20,680 Speaker 5: nine to one on this inside. 737 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,360 Speaker 1: That's a tempting payoff for a mobster looking to fix 738 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,840 Speaker 1: a fight, which is why, as Mark Krigel points out. 739 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,319 Speaker 12: The fixed fights were not a rumor, was a way 740 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,480 Speaker 12: of doing business. But it also becomes part of the 741 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:38,799 Speaker 12: folklore of boxing. And I think that the role of 742 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:42,719 Speaker 12: the mob was really not unlike Bud Schulberg's were on 743 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,279 Speaker 12: the Waterfront, whatever that famous speech is, you know, that's 744 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:46,920 Speaker 12: pretty much. 745 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,000 Speaker 1: How it worked. In the film On the Waterfront, Marlon 746 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:54,080 Speaker 1: Brando plays Terry Molloy, a former boxer turned doc worker. 747 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,920 Speaker 1: Rod Steiger plays his brother Charlie, a gangster who works 748 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,879 Speaker 1: for the mob boss and fix his fights. In that 749 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:05,120 Speaker 1: famous taxi cab scene, Terry tells his gangster Big brother 750 00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:08,160 Speaker 1: Charlie that he should have looked out for him, acting 751 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:12,439 Speaker 1: his ass off. Brando says, you don't understand. I could 752 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,640 Speaker 1: have had class, I could have been a contender. I 753 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:19,319 Speaker 1: could have been somebody instead of a bum, which is 754 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 1: what I am. Let's face it, it was you, Charlie. 755 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,640 Speaker 1: That scene was still resonating in the culture when Sonny 756 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,719 Speaker 1: Liston looked like he took a dive, so it was 757 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,920 Speaker 1: easy for boxing fans to shout the fight's fixed. And 758 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,240 Speaker 1: due to this shadow cast over the two Listen fights, 759 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,919 Speaker 1: it would take Casius Clay a long time to shake 760 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:46,000 Speaker 1: the whispers that he was an illegitimate champ. In fact, 761 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,880 Speaker 1: it wouldn't be until the Rumble in the Jungle in 762 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:53,440 Speaker 1: Zyere that that kind of talk fully stopped. But for now, 763 00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:57,400 Speaker 1: legitimate or not, Ali was the heavyweight champion of the 764 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: world and the stage was set for new phase as 765 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:05,480 Speaker 1: the people's champ and the boxer who did not want 766 00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:13,279 Speaker 1: to fight. On the next episode of Rumble. 767 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,560 Speaker 3: Suddenly he's like rubbing shoulders with Miles, and he's meeting 768 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:18,320 Speaker 3: Monk and all these dudes. 769 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,760 Speaker 9: This guy is dangerous. He's speaking his mind. 770 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,840 Speaker 4: I know where I'm going and I know the truth, 771 00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 4: and I don't have to be what you want me. 772 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,080 Speaker 5: To be as black power shit. You know, like this 773 00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:32,920 Speaker 5: is some more shit to fuck with people about. 774 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,960 Speaker 8: Rumble is a production of School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. 775 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,719 Speaker 8: Rumble is written and hosted by Zaren Burnett. The third 776 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:48,800 Speaker 8: produced and directed by Julia Chriscau. Sound design and scoring 777 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:54,200 Speaker 8: by Jesse Niswanger. Original music by Jordan Manley and TJ. Merritt. 778 00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:59,920 Speaker 8: Our senior producer is Amelia Brock. Series concept by Gary Stromberg. 779 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:05,319 Speaker 8: Executive producers are Jason English, Sean t Toone, Gary Stromberg, 780 00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:10,840 Speaker 8: Virginia Prescott, L C. Crowley, and Brandon Barr. Production manager 781 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:17,040 Speaker 8: Daisy Church, fact checker Savannah Hugley. Additional production by Claire Keating. 782 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,760 Speaker 8: Legal services provided by Canoel han Lee PC. Casting director 783 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:27,120 Speaker 8: Julia Chriscau. Episode one cast Abraham Amka as Mohammad Ali, 784 00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:32,200 Speaker 8: Jonah Weston as Norman Mailer, John Washington as Sonny Liston. 785 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:37,200 Speaker 8: Casting support services provided by Breakdown Express. Special thanks to 786 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,480 Speaker 8: Lewis Ehrenberg. Check out his book Rumble in the Jungle. 787 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:44,000 Speaker 8: It's a great resource. Also thanks to Jonathan I for 788 00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:48,440 Speaker 8: his book Ali A Life, and finally, thanks to Zarenz 789 00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:52,040 Speaker 8: pops Zeke who grounds this material like no one else. 790 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,480 Speaker 8: If you like the show, let us know, like subscribe, 791 00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:59,520 Speaker 8: leave five star reviews. It really helps. Also check out 792 00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:07,399 Speaker 8: our show note for a full list of reference materials.