1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: In its first abortion decision since overturning Roe v. Wade, 3 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court unanimously preserved full access to MIFA pristone, 4 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,920 Speaker 1: the pill used in nearly two thirds of all abortions 5 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: in the country last year. But the justices took a 6 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: sort of off ramp, deciding the case based on a 7 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: procedural issue called standing ruling that the anti abortion doctors 8 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: suing couldn't show they were injured by the FDA's expanding 9 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: access to MIFA pristone. It was the same concern we 10 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: heard voiced by justices across the ideological spectrum during the 11 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: oral arguments, from liberal Katanji Brown Jackson to conservative Brett Kavanaugh, 12 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: who wrote the majority opinion. 13 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 2: I mean, it makes perfect sense for the individual doctors 14 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 2: to seek an exemption. I understand it. They already had that, 15 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 2: and so what they're asking for here is that in 16 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 2: order to prevent them from possibly ever having to do 17 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 2: these kinds of procedures, everyone else should be prevented from 18 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 2: getting access to this medication. 19 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 3: Just to confirm on the standing issue under federal law, 20 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 3: no doctors can be forced against their consciences to perform 21 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 3: or assist in an abortion. 22 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: Correct The court didn't address the merits of the case, 23 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 1: the FDA's loosening of the restrictions on mifipristone, leaving it 24 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,839 Speaker 1: open to similar attacks expected by opponents of abortion. Joining 25 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: me is an expert and reproductive rights Mary Ziegler, a 26 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: professor at UC Davis Law School. Mary, did this decision, 27 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: this unanimous decision come as any surprise after the oral arguments. 28 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 4: I mean, it was a little bit of a surprise 29 00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 4: that it was unanimous, But I think after oral argument 30 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 4: was pretty clear that the plaineiffs were in trouble here 31 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 4: on standing grounds, and their standing arguments were really weak, 32 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 4: you know, from the outset. So in that sense, it 33 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 4: wasn't a surprise. 34 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: And tell us how the court came to its decision 35 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: on standing, well. 36 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 4: The court had three different grounds for deciding the planiffs 37 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 4: didn't have standing. The planeiffs argued that they had standing 38 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 4: because they could face conscience based injuries if patients had 39 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 4: complications from the pristone and ended up in the emergency 40 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 4: room where they were practicing. They argued that they would 41 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 4: suffer economic harms potentially if forced to treat patients. And finally, 42 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 4: they argued that their group their association, suffered harms because 43 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 4: it was forced to divert resources that could have been 44 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 4: used for other pro life or anti worsion work to 45 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 4: oppose MiFi pristone, and the Supreme Court rejected all three 46 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 4: of those claims. On the conscience point, the justices said, essentially, 47 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 4: there are lots of federal laws to protect conscience, so 48 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 4: there's no real threat of injury here. On the claims 49 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 4: about economic harm, the course of this is just way, 50 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,119 Speaker 4: way too broad, almost to the point of ridiculousness. They said. 51 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 4: If this was true as a theory of standing, firefighters 52 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 4: could sue to object to relax building codes, and teachers 53 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 4: and border states could sue to challenge immigration policies, this 54 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 4: would be a Pandora's box. And finally, on associational standing right, 55 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 4: the Court emphasized that this would be essentially allowing organizations 56 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 4: to manufacture standing by spending money to gather information and 57 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 4: advocate against an action. So all three of those standing 58 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 4: claims failed, but they were specific to these parties, so 59 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 4: it doesn't mean that these claims will necessarily go away forever, 60 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 4: just that these plaintiffs were unable to bring them. 61 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. In fact, on the last page of the opinion, 62 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: just as Kavanaugh wrote, quote, it is not clear that 63 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: no one else would have standing to challenge the FDA's 64 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: relaxed regulation of mifipristone, and the Texas judge below has 65 00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: allowed the states of Idaho, Kansas, and Missouri to join 66 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: the case at the district court level to help press 67 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: the same claims against the FDA. So that's still pending. 68 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 4: Yes, So there are these other plaintiffs in the district 69 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 4: court who had initially tried to intervene in the Supreme 70 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 4: Court proceedings and were turned away, but who are proceeding 71 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 4: through the lower courts arguing that they understanding that these 72 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 4: plaintiffs lacked. And it's worth emphasizing too, because that isn't 73 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 4: necessarily the end of it either. There are some local 74 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 4: counties and cities and what's called the Sanctuary City for 75 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 4: the Unborn movement that have been mulling bringing suits on 76 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 4: the same basis and asserting they have standing. So I 77 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 4: think we're seeing already some plaintiffs in the lower court 78 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 4: trying to say they can bring these claims and they 79 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 4: might not be the only. 80 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,359 Speaker 1: Ones, and the Supreme Court can almost get pushed to 81 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: hear these cases. For example, in this case, you have 82 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: the most conservative circuit in the country, the Fifth Circuit, 83 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: pushing the legal envelope and finding that these plaintiffs have 84 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: standing to sue, and then the Supreme Court has to 85 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,119 Speaker 1: respond and pushed back. 86 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 4: Exactly right. And it doesn't necessarily mean that those plaintiffs 87 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 4: will succeed either, right, I mean, they might not have 88 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 4: standing either. But I think all we know today is 89 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 4: that the Supreme Court is kicking the can down the road. 90 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 4: They haven't resolved many of these claims permanently, and the. 91 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: Court stop short way short of affirming the FDA's decisions 92 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: to expand access to mifipristone. I mean, they didn't consider 93 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,359 Speaker 1: the merits at all in the opinion. 94 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,039 Speaker 4: Right, I mean, if anything, the Court seems sympathetic to 95 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 4: the idea that people have conscience based objections to abortion. 96 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 4: The Court seem to be sympathetic to those and the 97 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 4: Court didn't at all affirm the logic of the FDA's 98 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 4: decision making, didn't say anything one way or another about 99 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 4: the plaintiff's theory that the Comstock Act operated as if 100 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 4: the facto ban on abortion. So we got really no insight, 101 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,559 Speaker 4: especially no insights that would be reassuring to the Biden 102 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 4: administration about what the Court thinks about those things. 103 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: Just as Kavanaugh wrote, the plaintiffs have sincere legal, moral, ideological, 104 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: and policy objections to elect of abortion and to the 105 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: FDA's relaxed regulation of mifipristone. That language is a little troubling, 106 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: isn't it. 107 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 4: I agree, I mean, and I think it signals that 108 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 4: we haven't seen the end of this by a long. 109 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: Shut And there's some irony in the fact that Kavanaugh 110 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: wrote a concurring opinion in the Dobbs case which overturned 111 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: the constitutional right to abortion, and he said, basically, the 112 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: abortion issue is now up to the states. We're done 113 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: with it. 114 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 4: I mean, I don't think anybody paying attention really believed that. 115 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 4: But it's ironic, of course, that the Court has two 116 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 4: abortion decisions in one term. I mean, this isn't even 117 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 4: the last we've heard from this particular term on abortion, 118 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 4: which is extraordinary. So this is not, you know, not 119 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 4: even the end of what we're hearing from the justices 120 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 4: right now, much less, you know, for the longer term. 121 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: You mentioned the second abortion case that's yet to be 122 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: decided over Idaho's strict abortion ban. Tell us about that that. 123 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 4: Case involves emergency access to abortion. The Biden administration has 124 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 4: argued that at a federal law called the Emergency Medical 125 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 4: Treatment in Labor Act, Trump's state bands when those bands 126 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 4: wouldn't allow access to abortion for certain medical emergencies, that 127 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 4: the federal law would require. Idaho, the state of Biden 128 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 4: administration took to court, has responded that the MTALA does 129 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 4: nothing of the sort, and that the question is either 130 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 4: left to the states or even that AMTALA offers some 131 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 4: protection for the unborn child, as Idaho puts it, pointing 132 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 4: to language in the statue, so that ruling remains to 133 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 4: be seen and could have pretty important effects. 134 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: After the oral arguments in them. If a priss Stone case, 135 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: it seemed pretty clear what the decision would be. Can 136 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,119 Speaker 1: you glean anything from the oral arguments in the Idaho case. 137 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 4: I mean, it seemed as if the court was likely 138 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 4: to side with Idaho, although the oral argument was a 139 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 4: little bit all over the place, So it's not entirely 140 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 4: clear that that's going to be true. And if it 141 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 4: is true, it's not entirely clear on what basis they're 142 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 4: going to side with Idaho. So I think we're expecting 143 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 4: a whin for Idaho, But on what basis or how 144 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 4: sweeping a win, I think remains to be seen. 145 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: Speaking about sweeping, about half the states have total bands 146 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: on abortion or laws limiting how MiFi prestone can be prescribed. 147 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: Does this decision change that at all? Or is it 148 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:19,679 Speaker 1: still illegal in those states? 149 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 4: It's still illegal. This ruling doesn't change the status quo. 150 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 4: So if the state has prohibited mifra pristone, it's still 151 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 4: prohibited in the state. If a state provides access to 152 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 4: mira pristone, the drug is still available. So it isn't 153 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 4: underlining any state law one way or another. 154 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: And tell us a little about the lawyers for the 155 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: anti abortion doctors and medical groups here. They're from the 156 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: conservative Christian legal advocacy group Alliance Defending Freedom that's been 157 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: behind a lot of Supreme Court decisions. 158 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 4: The plaintiffs here are probably less important than the attorneys 159 00:08:55,720 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 4: representing them, who are the Alliance Defending Freedom group that 160 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 4: has really been dominating in some ways the landscape of 161 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 4: Supreme Court abortion litigation since the Supreme Court overturned re 162 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 4: viewad So this is part of a much longer game 163 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 4: for them. They have lots of other cases and strategies 164 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 4: in the pipeline, including challenges involving abortion pills. So we're 165 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 4: going to see much more where this came from from them. 166 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: Anti abortion activists have been using different strategies, and we 167 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: see laws passed in some states that target abortion in 168 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: inventive ways. For example, Louisiana has designated abortion bills as 169 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: dangerous control substances that you need a prescription for. Do 170 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: you see one strategy as more effective than another. 171 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 4: That's absolutely right. So there's very much a kind of 172 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 4: like throw it at the wall and see what sticks. 173 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 4: That's going on here. Many of the strategies you mentioned 174 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 4: June involve abortion pills, so some of them involve making 175 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 4: it easier to survey and track who's using abortion pills, 176 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 4: in part because states where abortion is legal have been 177 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 4: passing shield laws, some of which allow physicians to mail 178 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 4: pills into banned states. So some states are looking for 179 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 4: tools to track and ultimately prosecute that usage. We're seeing 180 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 4: efforts again to limit travel often called abortion trafficking ordinances 181 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 4: that criminalize assisting people traveling for abortion. We've seen efforts 182 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 4: to even do strange things like label mythipristone a threat 183 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 4: to the environment and to the groundwater that're targeting the 184 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 4: Environmental Protection Agency. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. 185 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 4: Probably the most salient rely on the strategy that Donald 186 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 4: Trump will, you know, win the twenty twenty four election, 187 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 4: and that his Justice Department will be able to enforce 188 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 4: the Comstock Act as a ban on abortion, and that 189 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 4: that would of course override not just state laws but 190 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 4: even ballot initiatives that voters are deciding for themselves when 191 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 4: it comes to protecting abortion right. So there are a 192 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 4: lot of play here, and this case is just a 193 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 4: small piece of a much bigger. 194 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: Puzzle, a puzzle where the pieces don't always seem to 195 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: fit together. Thanks so much, Mary. That's Professor Mary Ziegler 196 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: of UC Davis Law School. In other Supreme Court news, 197 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: this week, a divided court threw out the federal ban 198 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: on bump stocks, saying regulator has exceeded their power by 199 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 1: outlining the rapid fire devices after they were used in 200 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: the deadliest mass shooting in the country's history. That vote 201 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: was six to three down. Ideological lines with the Liberals 202 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: dissenting coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show. His 203 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: gun trial may be behind him, but hunter Biden faces 204 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: another trial on tax charges in September, as well as 205 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: sentencing most likely in October. I'm June Grosso and you're 206 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 1: listening to Bloomberg. Hunter Biden is now the first child 207 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: of a sitting president to be convicted of crimes. On Monday, 208 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: after less than three hours of deliberations, a jury found 209 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: him guilty of all three felony charges for lying on 210 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 1: a mandatory gun purchase form by saying he was not 211 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:14,199 Speaker 1: illegally using or addicted to drugs. The prosecution had presented 212 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: evidence that hunter Biden was addicted to crack when he 213 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: bought a Revolver in twenty eighteen, with deeply personal testimony 214 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: from his ex wife and former romantic partners, with embarrassing 215 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 1: evidence such as text messages and photos of him with 216 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: drug paraphernalia or partially clothed, and with his own words 217 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: from the audiobook of his memoir. 218 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 5: I had no plan beyond the moment to moment demands 219 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 5: of the crack pipe. I used my superpower finding crack 220 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 5: anytime anywhere less than a day after landing at LAX 221 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 5: in the spring of twenty eighteen. 222 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: Special Counsel David Weiss, who brought the case against the 223 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: president's son, defended the prosecution, saying it was about the 224 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: rule of law. 225 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 6: This case was about the illegal choice's defendant made while 226 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 6: in the throes of addiction, his choice to lie on 227 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 6: a government form when he brought a gun, and the 228 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 6: choice to then possess that gun. 229 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: But several jurors who said they felt they had no 230 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 1: choice but to find Biden guilty also said they thought 231 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,079 Speaker 1: the case should never have been brought. Joining me is 232 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: former Manhattan prosecutor Duncan Levin of Leven and Associates. Duncan 233 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: the Special Council, said this prosecution was all about the 234 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: rule of law, but not many people in similar situations 235 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: are prosecuted under this law. 236 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 7: The case that shouldn't have gone to trial in the 237 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 7: first place. This was supposed to be resolved on upleaded 238 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 7: two misdemeanor tax charges. He's facing unrelated tax charges that 239 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,439 Speaker 7: are coming up for trial in September in California, basically 240 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 7: related to a million four in foreign business income, and 241 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 7: he's facing three felony counts there and six other misdemeanor counts, 242 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 7: and they're you know, pretty serious charges, their evasion of 243 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 7: an assessment and filing false returns, not paying his taxes, 244 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 7: and so this was all supposed to be wrapped up 245 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 7: with a plea deal that was going to resolve in 246 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 7: absolutely no jail time. Not plea deal fell apart that 247 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 7: all being said, I think that if you're going to 248 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 7: put in a case like this, the witnesses that they 249 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 7: called were necessary witnesses. They were at the core of 250 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 7: it trying to prove that he was a user where 251 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 7: addicted to controlled substance at the time that he filled 252 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 7: out this form to buy the gun, and they had 253 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 7: to call witnesses who were going to testify to that. 254 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 7: But the politics of this case are unmistakable because it 255 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 7: charges themselves are ones that are rarely, if ever brought. 256 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 7: Lying to a gun dealer is brought, probably fewer than 257 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 7: three hundred times a year, and that's out of twenty 258 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 7: five to thirty million background checks that are conducted around 259 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 7: the nation every single year. The false claims on a 260 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 7: federal firearms application is a form called the ETF four 261 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 7: four seven three. I have never heard of a case 262 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 7: being brought as a standalone case relying on a federal 263 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 7: firearms application. Never standalone. It's usually brought in connection with 264 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 7: another more serious crime, maybe somebody illegally using a gun 265 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 7: or a felon in possession. This is a gun that 266 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 7: was never used, it was never loaded, and Hunter Biden 267 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 7: possessed it for eleven days. Just to put it in perspective. 268 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: The three jurors who spoke and said that they had 269 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: no choice but to find him guilty, but they question 270 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: whether the criminal case should ever have been brought. One 271 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: said the case seem like a waste of taxpayer dollars. 272 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: Aren't those the jurors that the defense was targeting to 273 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: nullify you to say this case isn't worth it. We're 274 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: not going to find him guilty. 275 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 7: The jury obviously took the case very seriously, and it 276 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 7: sounds like politics really did not play a role in it, 277 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 7: and they didn't nullify, and the defense is clearly not 278 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 7: allowed to argue jury nullification. To them. Remembered, this is 279 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 7: a defendant who is well known to everybody in Delaware, 280 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 7: particularly they jurors walked through the lobby of the courthouse 281 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 7: every day to get to the trial, and the defendant's 282 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 7: father's photograph is hanging in the lobby. The First Lady 283 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 7: of the United States is sitting in attendance at the trial. 284 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 7: And they took their job seriously. They didn't nullify. They 285 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 7: looked at the evidence and they convicted. The case itself 286 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 7: was strong, and the defense really just said, at the 287 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 7: time he filled out this ATS form at the gun dealership, 288 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 7: he was not at the moment he filled the form 289 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 7: out addicted to drugs. But there was evidence that you know, 290 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 7: right before and right after he was, you know, texting 291 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 7: with a drug dealer, and that he was clearly addicted 292 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 7: to drugs. You know, this is a case that was 293 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 7: a waste of taxpayer dollars. On the other hand, the 294 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 7: you know, government was kind of forced into going a 295 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 7: trial on it when the plea deal fell apart. So 296 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 7: everybody's right here, it's the case that was strong. The 297 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 7: jury did a very thorough job and obviously took the 298 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 7: evidence very seriously. They didn't nullify because the case it 299 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 7: self was worthy of a conviction. It's a case where 300 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 7: interturers looking at it without a political lens and without 301 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 7: looking through the lens of nullification, would convict because it 302 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 7: was a strong case. There are a lot of cases 303 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 7: that you could question the motives behind prosecutors bringing them 304 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 7: in the first place. This case, I questioned the motives 305 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 7: of the special prosecutor bringing the charges frankly, because these 306 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 7: charges are never brought at a standalone case without something 307 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 7: more serious. So I do question whether the case was 308 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 7: brought because it was Hunter Biden. But at the end 309 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 7: of the day, it's unlikely to result in any jail time, 310 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 7: and I think the more serious charges that he's facing 311 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 7: are in September. With these tax crimes, he actually has 312 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 7: some significant exposure to an incarceratory sentence in September if 313 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 7: he's convicted on those charges. 314 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: Is there anything else the defense could have done to 315 00:17:58,160 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: change the verdict? 316 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 7: Judtieka really, I thought went out of her way to 317 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 7: hobble the defense, and I would ascribe part of it 318 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 7: to politics, and given the posture of the case, the 319 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 7: fact that she scuttled the plea deal. There were two 320 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 7: instances where the defense tried to get very key evidence 321 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 7: into the trial, one of which is that this ATF 322 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 7: four four seven three form was altered. It was altered 323 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 7: by the gun dealer at some point after the fact, 324 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 7: and that is the cause it is a requirement when 325 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 7: the gun dealer has this form filled out that they 326 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 7: get identifications that has the purchaser's address on it. At 327 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 7: the time that they got the form in the first place, 328 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 7: they got hunter Biden's passport, which did not have his 329 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 7: address on it, and later at a point they filled 330 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 7: out the form again to say that they'd gotten his 331 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 7: driver's life. The judge barred the defense from introducing evidence 332 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 7: of the altered form and said that it was a 333 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 7: quote unquote conspiracy theory and unsupported rhetoric. I find that 334 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 7: hard to believe and just a ruling that really has 335 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 7: no merit because this is a case all about who 336 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 7: filled out the form and when they filled out the form. 337 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 7: The fact that the form was altered after the fact 338 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 7: is very key evidence, and frankly, I think is some 339 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 7: grounds for appeal that that was not allowed to be 340 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 7: introduced at trial. The other thing is that the defense 341 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 7: tried to call a Columbia psychiatrist named doctor l Eiun 342 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 7: to testify at trial about hunter Biden's state of mind 343 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 7: at the time that he filled out the form. There 344 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 7: is a knowledge requirement here, and the defense was trying 345 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 7: to show to the jury that at the time he 346 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 7: filled out the form, he did not believe himself to 347 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:40,199 Speaker 7: be an addict, and I think there's some support to 348 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 7: that in the evidence because Hunter Biden had just finished 349 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 7: an eleven day rehab program and also was living with 350 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 7: a sober companion, and so somebody who is sober for 351 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 7: even one day or two days or eleven days may 352 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 7: not consider themselves to be an addict. And it's something 353 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 7: that I think the defense should have been allowed to 354 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 7: argue and was precluded from arguing, and that really gutted 355 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 7: the defense case in many ways. So they were really 356 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 7: left with this very narrow argument that at the time 357 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 7: of filling out the form he was not addicted to drugs, 358 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 7: because there's no evidence he was doing drugs that day. 359 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 7: So I think the judgment really out of her way 360 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 7: to recap the defense. So they do have some appeals 361 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 7: here that they can pursue. 362 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: Another appellate issue they may use is one that they 363 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 1: used to try to get the charges dismissed before trial. 364 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: They argued the gun law was unconstitutional following a ruling 365 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: by the US Supreme Court in twenty twenty two, the 366 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: New York Case that expanded gun rights and the Fifth 367 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: Circuit has struck down the law barring users of illegal 368 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: drugs from possessing firearms, ruling it was unconstitutional. So could 369 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: that be a good appellate argument? 370 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 7: I think this is a great suppellent argument and we 371 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 7: can all expect to see it, and frankly, it may 372 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 7: at some point win. At the point that it wins, however, 373 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 7: he will have already been branded a felon and done 374 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 7: time if he does time or served out a sentence, 375 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 7: because this is unlikely to wind its way through the 376 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 7: courts anytime soon. But if you look at the statute itself, 377 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 7: which is nine twenty two G. Three, it basically makes 378 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 7: it unlawful to possess a gun if you are a 379 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 7: user or addicted to any controlled substance. And the terms 380 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 7: are ill defined. And you know, anyone who's gone through 381 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 7: addiction and is understanding of the challenges facing addicts knows 382 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 7: that the term addict is one that is very loaded, 383 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 7: and the term user is one that's very loaded. And 384 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 7: it's unclear whether it means that you have to be 385 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 7: a user at the time you're filling out the form, 386 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 7: or what that even means. If somebody does crack or 387 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 7: some controlled substance and two days later goes to fill 388 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 7: out this application. Are they a user? Are they an addict? 389 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 7: The terms are ill defined, They're very vague, and I 390 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 7: think as a result of it, the statute is really 391 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 7: subject to being struck down as unconstitutional. 392 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,200 Speaker 1: Let's turn to what happens next. There's the probation into you, 393 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:04,199 Speaker 1: the sentencing memos, and biden friends and families sending in 394 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 1: letter after letters to the judge. Which part of that 395 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 1: is most important? 396 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 7: The probation interview is meant to give the judge a 397 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 7: sense of who he is as a person that may 398 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 7: not emerge from the trial, and the same thing for 399 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,640 Speaker 7: the sentencing memo. In large measure, it's meant to educate 400 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 7: the judge on who a defendant is, who their friends are, 401 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 7: the character references, and explain any mitigating circumstances. Here. The 402 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 7: judge is very familiar with this defendant, and so it 403 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 7: may be of less weight to have a probation officer 404 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 7: interviewing him and giving any information to the court. A 405 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 7: parallel to be drawn to Donald Trump and his criminal 406 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 7: hush money trial in New York, where there was a 407 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 7: probation interview recently. These are probation interviews that are of 408 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 7: highly vetted people, and so it may not sway the 409 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 7: judge who's likely very familiar, but this judge may see 410 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 7: Hunter Biden as an addict. And I think that both 411 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,400 Speaker 7: the sentencing memo process and the probation interview are meant 412 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 7: to give a much more holistic view of some of 413 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 7: the good things he's done, the work he's done his family, 414 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 7: and educates her on all of the other parts of 415 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 7: his personality and being that have not come through so 416 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 7: far in any of the brief thing and the trial. 417 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: So he technically faces twenty five years. Do you think 418 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:22,959 Speaker 1: he'll even be sent to prison. 419 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 7: I think he will not be sent to prison on 420 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 7: this case because the case merits no prison It's a 421 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 7: case involving nothing violent. Even though there was a gun. 422 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 7: This was a gun that he possessed for eleven days. 423 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 7: It was never loaded. The charges are never really brought 424 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 7: a standalone cases. He had no other offenses. This is 425 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 7: his first criminal offense. The cases are brought fewer than, 426 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 7: as I say, three hundred times a year out of 427 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 7: twenty five million background checks. It's a very minor case 428 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 7: in terms of the federal sentencing guideline and Jay is 429 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 7: really already on record with a plea deal, with their 430 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 7: recommendation to the judge that he should not go to 431 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,640 Speaker 7: jail over this. Frankly, over the tax case either, there 432 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 7: was no jail requirements involved, and so the OJ and 433 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 7: the parties have already all but agreed that he should 434 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 7: not see jail time on the case. I will find 435 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 7: it shocking if they now turned around and asked for 436 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 7: any kind of jail time on that, and the. 437 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: Special Council sort of hinted there might not be jail 438 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 1: time when he made that statement after the verdict. Thanks 439 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: so much, Duncan. That's former Manhattan Prosecutor Duncan Levin coming 440 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 1: up next. A place in Manhattan where you can see 441 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: famous politicians, billionaire businessmen, and top lawyers crossing paths. I'm 442 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:59,719 Speaker 1: June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg. If you're fighting 443 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 1: the law in Manhattan, chances are good that it will 444 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: bring you downtown to Foley Square, where there are no 445 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: less than eight courthouses within a few blocks of each other. 446 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 1: And yes, the courthouse scene in Law and Order is 447 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 1: one of them. Many historic trials have taken place in 448 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: these courthouses over the years, but rarely do so many 449 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 1: of them converge at the same time. For weeks, like 450 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: a planetary alignment of the justice system, famous politicians, billionaire businessmen, 451 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: and prominent lawyers have been crossing paths as their trials 452 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 1: play out simultaneously. The hush money trial of former President 453 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: Donald Trump, the bribery trial of Senator Bob Menendez, the 454 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:52,439 Speaker 1: market manipulation trial of Chinese billionaire Bill Huang, and the 455 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: fraud trial of exiled Chinese tycoon Guo Wan Wuei. Now 456 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 1: some of the defendants, one in particular, have been stealing 457 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: the spotlight, allowing the others to slip past almost unnoticed. 458 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: But carefully watching it all has been Bloomberg Legal reporter 459 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 1: AVA Benny Morrison. Ava tell us about this area where 460 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 1: you have all these courthouses, federal, state, civil, criminal. 461 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 8: It's quite a condensed little area down there. You have 462 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 8: the federal courthouse, which is on Pearl Street, and then 463 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 8: across the road from that you have the New York 464 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 8: State Supreme Courthouse, and then there are a couple of 465 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 8: other federal courthouses state courthouses in the streets around that. 466 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 8: So it's all very walkables, and they're all very close 467 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 8: to each other. 468 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 1: So until last week, there were four high profile trials 469 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: going on at the same time, in what you called 470 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 1: a planetary alignment of the justice system. 471 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 8: Yes, it certainly has been very busy down there. In 472 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 8: the state courthouse, we had former President Donald Trumps on 473 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 8: trial in the hush money case, that was until he 474 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 8: was convicted last week. And then in the federal courthouse 475 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 8: we have free trials going on at the same time, 476 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 8: just a few flaws apart. Firstly, we've got Bil Kwong, 477 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 8: who was the founder of the immensely successful family office 478 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 8: Archaeos Capital Wants Management. KGOS collapsed in twenty twenty one 479 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 8: and that reverberated around Wall Street, led to massive losses 480 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 8: for a number of big banks and almost wiped out 481 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 8: Bil Kwong's thirty six billion dollar personal fortune. 482 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 7: He's accused of. 483 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 8: Fraud, market mutilation, and racket heearing. We've also got the 484 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 8: trial of Senator Bob Menendez Nears accused of accepting bribes 485 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 8: while he was in office, and that trial has been 486 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 8: going on for a couple of weeks now, and we've 487 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 8: had some interesting witnesses. Cooperating witnesses who are testifying against Menendez. 488 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 8: And then lastly we have Chinese tycoon Miles Glow. Milesbow 489 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 8: has been living in New York for a few years. 490 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 8: He's been close associated Steve Bannon. He's also close with 491 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 8: hedge fund manager Kyle bat He's accused of fraud and 492 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 8: swindling up to a billion dollars out of investors. So 493 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:08,400 Speaker 8: it's all happening there at once. 494 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 1: Will the hush money trial was going on, were most 495 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: of the crowds and attention focused on that courthouse. 496 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 8: Yes, they certainly were, But because of how close the 497 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 8: courthouses were, some of those crowds were spread out. For example, 498 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 8: every afternoon before about four pm, there was a small 499 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,440 Speaker 8: group of Trump supporters that would gather outside the Federal Courthouse, 500 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 8: which is across the road from where Trump was obviously 501 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 8: on trial, and they would turn out with Trump flags, 502 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 8: make America great Again, hats, horns, whistles, and they'd wait 503 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 8: for him to drive past his convoy when he would 504 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 8: leave court each day, and he would slowly roll past. 505 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 8: He wouldn't wind down the window, but he would put 506 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 8: them away through the very dark windows, and they get 507 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 8: very excited about that. But they'd pack up and return 508 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 8: the next day. 509 00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: Wall Street is really watching the Wong trial, and a 510 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: lot of attention is on Menandez too, But Wong seemed 511 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: to have benefited from the concentration on Trump. 512 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 8: Yes, exactly, especially in finance world and on Wall Street. 513 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 8: Everyone knows who Bill Kong is and there is a 514 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 8: lot of interests, as he said in his trial. Yet 515 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 8: because of all the other high profile trials going on 516 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 8: with Menendez Trump, every time Bill Huang walks out of 517 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 8: the courthouse, he goes largely unnoticed by the people that 518 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 8: are standing outside and the Trump supporters. In contrast, Menendez 519 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 8: when he walks out of the courthouse by himself, he's 520 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 8: often heckled by some of those supporters who yell things 521 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 8: at him, and the US marshals have to clear a 522 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 8: path for him so he can get into a waiting car. 523 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 8: So it's been interesting that someone like Bill Wong, who 524 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 8: has such a massive impact on the finance world only 525 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 8: a couple of years ago, can sort of go in 526 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 8: and out of the courthouse largely unnoticed. So I think 527 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 8: he's definitely benefited from having his trial underway in the 528 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 8: same building as someone a bit more high prof like 529 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 8: Bob Menendez. 530 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: Do these famous defendants ever run into each other. 531 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 8: So even though these men have been on trial in 532 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 8: separate trials, separate court rooms, there's often some moments where 533 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 8: they cross paths. Especially in the morning. Everyone who doesn't 534 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 8: have a path to get into the federal courthouse has 535 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 8: to line up in security, and that can be a 536 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 8: wildly different mix of people. You've got witnesses who are testifying, 537 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 8: You've got people lining up for naturalization ceremonies, You've got 538 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 8: descendants out of town lawyers. One morning, we saw Bill 539 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 8: Huang waiting in the marble lobby foryer and looking at 540 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 8: some of the court sketch artists pieces that were hanging 541 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 8: on the wall that had captured moments in other high 542 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 8: profile trials that have happened inside that courthouse. Behind him, 543 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 8: through the glass, you could see Senator Menendez waiting in 544 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 8: the security line, and just a few people ahead of 545 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 8: him was Scott Becker. Scott Becker used to work for 546 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 8: Bill Huang at Archaegos, and he was preparing to testify 547 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 8: against Swang later that day. So the courthouse has certainly 548 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 8: been a melting pot of very interesting characters in cases. 549 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: Now, does Wang or Menendez have an entourage. 550 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 8: Kwang certainly has an entourage. He has had at least 551 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 8: a dozen people turn up at his court case every 552 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 8: single day. They take up two or three of the 553 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 8: benches in the public gallery, and they will often join 554 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 8: him for lunch inside the courtroom cafeteria. So he's definitely 555 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 8: got his fair share of loyal supporters around him every day. 556 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 8: Menendez has been more of a loan figure. I've only 557 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 8: ever seen him with his lawyers waiting for the elevator 558 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 8: or outside the courtroom. When he has walked out of 559 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 8: the courthouse, He's often been by himself. Sometimes he stops 560 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 8: and gives interviews to some of the Spanish speaking media 561 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 8: who have been gathered outside, but largely he's coming and 562 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 8: going from the courthouse on his own. 563 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: The courthouse is there are near Chinatown and Little Italy. 564 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: Do they head off there for lunch? 565 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 8: Not that I've seen. In the past. There have been 566 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 8: who have been on trial who have chosen to leave 567 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 8: the courthouse during the lunch break and go and find 568 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 8: some dumplings in Chinatown around the corner. But in this case, 569 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 8: I've seen Wong in the court cafeteria almost every day, 570 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 8: sitting down with his wife and some of his employees 571 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 8: from his nonprofit, the Grace and Mercy Foundation. He's co 572 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 8: defended Patrick Halligan. I've think him a couple of times 573 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 8: eating lunch outside in the patio, which I've got to 574 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 8: say has quite beautiful views of the Brooklyn Bridge, so 575 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 8: it's a nice place to see, especially as the weather 576 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 8: gets where Marked menendezo I hasn't been seen around the cafeteria, 577 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 8: so I don't know where he's bunkering down to have 578 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 8: lunch each day. 579 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: Court cafeterias often have, you know, prosecutors, defense attorneys, judges, 580 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: defendants all in this concentrated area with their cafeteria trees. 581 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: It's really unusual, you know, it can seem sort of 582 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: surreal sometimes. 583 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 8: Absolutely and jurors aren't allowed to go to that cafeteria 584 00:32:55,360 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 8: because there are defendants, witnesses, prosecutors, defense Floyd is coming 585 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 8: and going constantly, but it certainly has been a buzzer 586 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 8: of activity. There are people lining up the sandwiches, and 587 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 8: one day you can be standing next to a federal 588 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 8: court judge. The next day you're standing next to the 589 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,959 Speaker 8: federal prosecutor who's presenting the government's case in the massive 590 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 8: racketeering trial upstairs, and then you see a defendant sitting 591 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 8: down with his wife next to the court security officer 592 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 8: who's in charge of during everyone's behaving himself in his 593 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 8: court room. So you know, they're human beings. They need 594 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 8: to eat at some point, so it's interesting just to 595 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 8: see the mix of people that end up sitting next 596 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 8: to each other snacking on chicken salad or slice a 597 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 8: pizza avalunch. 598 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: And these federal trials have been going on for some time, 599 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: so Menandez and Huang trials about a month, and the 600 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: Quote trial a little less than that. How much longer 601 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: are they expected to last? 602 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 8: They have been going on for a while, and they 603 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 8: still have a bit to go. I check in on 604 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 8: the Borad trials, and I think that the prosecution is 605 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 8: only about halfway through its case. In the Wang trial, 606 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 8: the judge estimated that it may well fill into July 607 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 8: at this point, and then the Menendez case, and the 608 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 8: prosecution is still presenting its evidence, so we've still got 609 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 8: a few weeks to go in each of these trials. 610 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 8: It's been a real juggle, I think for the reporters 611 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 8: covering it, trying to run between each court rooms. 612 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 1: And as you know, Trump complained about the Manhattan Criminal Courthouse, 613 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: and I have to say the Federal Courthouse is just 614 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: much nicer. 615 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 8: Yes it is. The Federal Courthouse is quite grand. Got 616 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 8: a big, open marble lobby. The courtrooms have great acoustics, 617 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 8: which is very important when you're trying to hear whatever 618 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 8: I'm saying. Beautiful views over the city and over the 619 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 8: Hudson River. There's a great, big test room there that 620 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,919 Speaker 8: we all work out of, so it is a lot 621 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 8: easier to work out of there than it is, I 622 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 8: think in State Court, which is a lot older. A 623 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 8: lot of the reporters who are covering the Trump trial 624 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,399 Speaker 8: has to line up for hours each day to get 625 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,439 Speaker 8: a spot in an overflow room. So, you know, different 626 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 8: experiences covering trial's and HFO cool hazard. 627 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 1: Ava, thanks so much for giving us this behind the 628 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,399 Speaker 1: scenes look at what's happening at these major trials. That's 629 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Legal reporter Ava. Benny Morrison in other legal news. 630 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,240 Speaker 6: On this vote, the yays are two hundred and sixteen, 631 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 6: the nays are two hundred and seven. 632 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 8: The resolution is adopted. 633 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: And with that party line vote, Merrick Garland became the 634 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 1: third ever Attorney General to be held in contempt of Congress. 635 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: Garland has refused to hand over audio recordings of President 636 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,360 Speaker 1: Joe Biden's interview with the Special Council during the investigation 637 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: into his handling of classified documents. The transcripts of that 638 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: interview have already been made public by the Justice Department, 639 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 1: and Biden has asserted executive privilege over the audio. Despite that, 640 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: Republicans like James Comer of Kentucky say they have a 641 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: right to the tapes. 642 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 8: It is insufficient to simply take the Justice Department at 643 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,760 Speaker 8: its word that the transcripts have not been altered. 644 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: Maryland Democrat Jamie Raskin says the move is all about politics. 645 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 9: They literally don't even know what they're looking for anymore, 646 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 9: so why do they want it. Well, they're hoping that 647 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 9: in the five hours of President Biden's testimony they can 648 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 9: find a mispronounced word or phrase, or a brief stammer 649 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 9: which they can then turn into an embarrassing political TV 650 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 9: attack ad. 651 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 1: On Friday, the Justice Department said it won't prosecute the 652 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: Attorney General because the refusal to turn over the tapes 653 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,360 Speaker 1: was not a crime. In a letter to House Speaker 654 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:42,320 Speaker 1: Mike Johnson, a Justice Department official cited the department's longstanding 655 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 1: policy not to prosecute officials who don't comply with subpoenas 656 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 1: because of a president's claim of executive privilege. The last 657 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 1: Attorney General held in contempt of Congress was Bill Barr 658 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen for refusing to turn over documents related 659 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: to the Special Counsels and investigation into Trump, and in 660 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 1: twenty twelve, Attorney General Eric Holder was held in contempt 661 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:10,320 Speaker 1: for failing to turn over documents related to Operation Fast 662 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: and Furious. The Justice Department took no action against either 663 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: attorney general. And that's it for this edition of The 664 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can always get the latest 665 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 1: legal news on our Bloomberg Law podcasts. You can find 666 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at www dot bloomberg 667 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: dot com, slash podcast Slash Law, And remember to tune 668 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,280 Speaker 1: into The Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight at ten pm 669 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso, and you're listening to 670 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 1: Bloomberg