WEBVTT - Michael Lewis and Maya Talk “The Other Side of Change” 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:15.396 Pushkin. 0:00:30.316 --> 0:00:33.916 Hey everyone, it's me Maya. I recently had the pleasure 0:00:34.036 --> 0:00:36.796 of launching my new book, The Other Side of Change 0:00:37.236 --> 0:00:42.716 with literary royalty Michael Lewis. Michael, it seems, knows only 0:00:42.836 --> 0:00:46.076 how to write bestsellers that also tend to get turned 0:00:46.116 --> 0:00:49.636 into big budget movies like Moneyball, The Big Short, and 0:00:49.716 --> 0:00:54.356 The blind Side. He's a star through and through, Needless 0:00:54.396 --> 0:00:56.756 to say, I was honored that he wanted to host 0:00:56.796 --> 0:01:00.636 this conversation. I've known Michael for over a decade, and 0:01:00.676 --> 0:01:02.356 so when we took our seats in front of a 0:01:02.396 --> 0:01:06.436 live audience in San Francisco, we immediately defaulted to our 0:01:06.476 --> 0:01:10.956 normal state when hanging out, ribbing another, joking and also 0:01:10.996 --> 0:01:14.356 going deep. The conversation you're about to hear is one 0:01:14.356 --> 0:01:16.996 of my favorites from my book tour. We talked about 0:01:17.036 --> 0:01:20.396 my experience writing The Other Side of Change, starting this podcast, 0:01:20.916 --> 0:01:24.596 and how we think about navigating life's hardest moments. I 0:01:24.636 --> 0:01:25.516 hope you enjoy it. 0:01:29.556 --> 0:01:32.156 So I have here to my right, Maya Schucker, who 0:01:32.236 --> 0:01:35.556 is a friend from We Go Back. I was working 0:01:35.556 --> 0:01:38.316 on the Undoing project story of Danny Kannoman and I 0:01:38.356 --> 0:01:40.116 met you at the Kennedy School. 0:01:40.396 --> 0:01:42.596 Yeah, I asked, if you want to do my friend. 0:01:42.796 --> 0:01:44.836 Yes, she did, That's exactly right, send. 0:01:44.636 --> 0:01:45.076 You to email. 0:01:45.116 --> 0:01:47.716 I wanted to listen to her presentation she was giving. 0:01:47.996 --> 0:01:49.716 She was working in the White House at that point, 0:01:49.996 --> 0:01:53.756 you're working, you were a behavioral like what was your title? 0:01:53.956 --> 0:01:55.236 Yeah, behavioral scientist. 0:01:55.556 --> 0:01:58.236 All right, So I've watched I've watched iterations of Maya. 0:01:58.476 --> 0:02:01.836 You know, that was my White House Maya, Public Policy Maya. 0:02:02.036 --> 0:02:04.116 And now then she became Google Maya, and then she 0:02:04.156 --> 0:02:07.276 became podcast Maya, and now she's author Maya, and she 0:02:08.156 --> 0:02:12.236 you know, eventually you be Nobel Prize winning Maya. Now 0:02:12.316 --> 0:02:14.396 and I got to talk for forty five minutes, and 0:02:14.436 --> 0:02:16.876 then we're going to open it up to questions, and 0:02:17.276 --> 0:02:20.516 the conversation is going is we're going to talk about 0:02:20.516 --> 0:02:22.676 the book. But before we talk about the book, I 0:02:22.716 --> 0:02:24.596 want to talk about you. We're going to start with you, 0:02:25.076 --> 0:02:27.156 and I want you. I want to start with because 0:02:27.156 --> 0:02:29.596 the book grows out of your podcast Slight Shade, your Plans, 0:02:29.636 --> 0:02:31.556 and I was present at the birth of your podcast. 0:02:32.476 --> 0:02:35.716 We share a podcast company, Pushkin, and they're here there. 0:02:35.876 --> 0:02:38.276 I think they're recording it for the podcast. So I 0:02:38.316 --> 0:02:42.116 want let's just start by how you got interested in 0:02:42.156 --> 0:02:45.796 the subject of change in people's lives and and let's 0:02:45.836 --> 0:02:47.636 talk a little bitut the podcast, how you got into 0:02:47.676 --> 0:02:48.476 this in the first place. 0:02:49.316 --> 0:02:51.316 Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, thank you all 0:02:51.356 --> 0:02:54.916 of you so much for coming. It's so much fun 0:02:54.956 --> 0:02:56.876 to do this in San Francisco because it does feel 0:02:56.916 --> 0:03:00.716 like a celebration with friends and family and some new faces. 0:03:00.716 --> 0:03:03.076 But I am very humbled that all of you took 0:03:03.076 --> 0:03:04.836 some time out of your evening to spend it with me, 0:03:05.316 --> 0:03:08.356 and like mostly Michael, stop it so we know who 0:03:08.436 --> 0:03:12.436 pulled the weight on this invitation. It's okay, okay, So 0:03:12.436 --> 0:03:14.316 how did I get interested in the topic of change? 0:03:14.356 --> 0:03:17.996 So twenty twenty, the beginning was was a little tough 0:03:17.996 --> 0:03:22.276 for me personally because after years of trying to start 0:03:22.316 --> 0:03:26.156 a family with my husband Jimmy, we found out I 0:03:26.196 --> 0:03:29.596 think it was early March that our surrogate in Arkansas 0:03:29.436 --> 0:03:31.996 had miscarried, and so this big dream that I had 0:03:31.996 --> 0:03:35.076 of becoming a mom was just in a moment shattered. 0:03:35.716 --> 0:03:38.236 And I had had a lot of formative experiences with 0:03:38.436 --> 0:03:40.916 change as a kid, you know, losing the violin. 0:03:40.716 --> 0:03:43.476 With those dream don't just glass over there talk about 0:03:43.476 --> 0:03:43.996 that for a minute. 0:03:44.036 --> 0:03:44.716 Okay, let's start. 0:03:44.916 --> 0:03:47.036 So from the time I was a little kid, violin 0:03:47.236 --> 0:03:50.516 was the center of my life, and when I was nine, 0:03:50.596 --> 0:03:53.756 I started studying at Juilliard. When I was a teenager, 0:03:54.196 --> 0:03:57.036 it's off Pearlman invited me to be his private violin student. 0:03:57.596 --> 0:03:59.396 That was sort of the vote of confidence I needed 0:03:59.396 --> 0:04:02.196 to think, Hey, maybe I have what it could take 0:04:02.396 --> 0:04:04.916 to become a professional. And it was the first time 0:04:04.956 --> 0:04:09.076 I remember talking with my siblings and my parents like 0:04:09.356 --> 0:04:12.636 maybe conservatory is a real option versus, you know, the 0:04:12.676 --> 0:04:16.916 standard liberal arts college. And then everything was going according 0:04:16.916 --> 0:04:19.316 to plan until I had my slight change of plans 0:04:19.516 --> 0:04:23.276 and a hand injury that I sustained while playing the violin, 0:04:24.236 --> 0:04:26.956 and did my dreams kind of in a moment, you know, 0:04:27.036 --> 0:04:29.916 doctors told me that I could no longer play the violin. 0:04:29.956 --> 0:04:33.716 How were you fifteen, okay, and what was your response 0:04:33.756 --> 0:04:34.516 to that? How'd you feel? 0:04:36.316 --> 0:04:39.756 I was surprised by how hard I took it. But 0:04:39.796 --> 0:04:41.636 then I think about the fact that when you're fifteen 0:04:41.676 --> 0:04:43.916 and you've played the violin since you were six, that's 0:04:43.916 --> 0:04:47.116 a sizeable fraction of your life, and so the loss 0:04:47.116 --> 0:04:52.316 feels pretty big, and it's hard to understate my devotion 0:04:52.596 --> 0:04:54.476 to the craft. My sister would say he was in 0:04:54.516 --> 0:04:56.436 the front row that when I was not home, she 0:04:56.476 --> 0:04:59.116 would actually hear phantom sounds of the violin playing. It 0:04:59.156 --> 0:05:01.756 was like her worst nightmare. It was so horrible. I'm 0:05:01.796 --> 0:05:05.396 so sorry, Mirah. And also my life was oriented around 0:05:05.396 --> 0:05:07.556 the violin. So every Saturday I would wake up at 0:05:07.556 --> 0:05:09.916 four thirty in the morning to train to New York 0:05:09.916 --> 0:05:12.236 with my mom. I would spend ten hours there and 0:05:12.276 --> 0:05:15.636 taking classes, come home at ten thirty at night. And 0:05:16.116 --> 0:05:19.076 there were just a lot of sacrifices involved, and you know, 0:05:19.076 --> 0:05:21.156 it was just a huge part of my identity. And 0:05:21.196 --> 0:05:24.236 so I think what was interesting to me when I 0:05:24.276 --> 0:05:27.836 lost it is that I felt like I was grieving 0:05:28.236 --> 0:05:30.836 the loss of the instrument, sure, but more importantly the 0:05:30.876 --> 0:05:32.876 loss of myself in this more fundamental way. 0:05:33.116 --> 0:05:34.116 I mean, it was the thing that. 0:05:34.036 --> 0:05:36.356 Made me feel like I was special and I was 0:05:36.396 --> 0:05:38.196 good at something, and that I belonged. You know, I 0:05:38.236 --> 0:05:41.116 was bullied in school, and violin and that whole community 0:05:41.156 --> 0:05:41.956 was a refuge for me. 0:05:42.076 --> 0:05:45.036 And yeah, it just was really entangled with my self worth. 0:05:45.156 --> 0:05:46.956 I mean, you flash forward many years and you're telling 0:05:47.316 --> 0:05:51.116 stories of other people's adaptive strategies. Did you have a strategy? 0:05:51.556 --> 0:05:52.116 What did you do? 0:05:52.396 --> 0:05:55.916 I doubled down on watching MTV. All right, I was 0:05:55.956 --> 0:05:56.676 super MOPy. 0:05:57.596 --> 0:06:00.196 I didn't have any good strategies or coping mechanisms as 0:06:00.196 --> 0:06:02.516 a fifteen year old, I was just like, this sucks. 0:06:03.356 --> 0:06:06.436 I was also very, very stubborn, so I kept playing 0:06:06.716 --> 0:06:11.036 through the pain. I had hand surgery. I took an 0:06:11.076 --> 0:06:16.436 absurd amount of anti inflammatories. Eventually doctors were like, kid, 0:06:16.476 --> 0:06:18.276 you got to do what You've got to stop. This 0:06:18.316 --> 0:06:20.036 is clearly not going to resolve itself. 0:06:20.156 --> 0:06:22.556 Yeah, at that moment, where did all that energy go? 0:06:23.476 --> 0:06:24.876 So my dad gave me good advice. 0:06:25.036 --> 0:06:27.796 So was the summer before college, and I was having 0:06:27.996 --> 0:06:30.596 serious imposter syndrome because I thought, well, Violen's the only 0:06:30.596 --> 0:06:32.236 reason I even got into college in the first place, 0:06:32.276 --> 0:06:33.876 and I don't even have that thing. So now what 0:06:33.916 --> 0:06:37.796 do I do? And he said, you've effectively been wearing 0:06:37.876 --> 0:06:41.756 blinders for the last ten years. Your job this summer 0:06:41.836 --> 0:06:43.596 is to basically be an explorer. I want you to 0:06:43.596 --> 0:06:45.516 read as much as you can possibly read, when to 0:06:45.556 --> 0:06:47.916 talk to as many people as you possibly can. I 0:06:48.036 --> 0:06:52.476 just want you to feed your curiosity and to do 0:06:52.556 --> 0:06:55.876 it in a way that doesn't have a goal attached 0:06:55.916 --> 0:06:58.676 to it, because if you're if you're exploring the world 0:06:58.876 --> 0:07:00.556 hoping that you're going to figure out what your college 0:07:00.556 --> 0:07:02.516 major is going to be, it's going to be limiting 0:07:02.556 --> 0:07:02.916 in a way. 0:07:03.036 --> 0:07:05.396 And he knows that he knew his daughter you were 0:07:05.436 --> 0:07:06.276 so goal. 0:07:06.036 --> 0:07:09.596 Orient Yes, And I really like clarity and I really 0:07:09.636 --> 0:07:12.156 like certainty, so I was going to latch onto anything. 0:07:12.156 --> 0:07:14.076 It was like, Okay, can I pull off being a 0:07:14.116 --> 0:07:16.556 history major? Okay, I'll go with that. And I'm really 0:07:16.596 --> 0:07:19.276 glad that I didn't do this with a concrete goal 0:07:19.316 --> 0:07:22.356 in mind, because I didn't even know that cognitive science 0:07:22.396 --> 0:07:25.196 was a thing. And it just so happens that I 0:07:25.236 --> 0:07:28.596 read Stephen Pinker's book, The Language Instinct. It was in 0:07:28.636 --> 0:07:30.596 the basement of my parents. My sister had read it 0:07:30.636 --> 0:07:31.476 in college. 0:07:31.316 --> 0:07:32.876 Which you wouldn't have read if your father. 0:07:32.756 --> 0:07:33.796 Didn't absolutely not. 0:07:34.076 --> 0:07:36.716 Yeah, I would probably have just skiinned the course catalog 0:07:36.996 --> 0:07:39.716 and been like, which is the one where I feel 0:07:39.716 --> 0:07:41.156 like I could actually do okay in it? 0:07:41.356 --> 0:07:44.436 That would probably have been my strategy, and it was. 0:07:44.836 --> 0:07:50.116 The book was all about our brain's extraordinary capacity for language, 0:07:50.636 --> 0:07:54.076 and I had always taken my language abilities for granted. 0:07:54.156 --> 0:07:57.036 I just didn't really think about them. And this book 0:07:57.156 --> 0:08:02.916 detailed the sophisticated cognitive machinery that's operating behind the scenes 0:08:02.956 --> 0:08:07.316 that gives rise to language, and I was totally enraptured. 0:08:07.356 --> 0:08:09.116 I was like, whoa, this is totally crazy. 0:08:09.956 --> 0:08:12.556 And it would share things like think about how a 0:08:12.596 --> 0:08:16.156 little kid learns language, right, They just hear a continuous 0:08:16.156 --> 0:08:20.796 stream of sound. There's no parsing between words. Kids just 0:08:20.836 --> 0:08:23.516 figure out when one word stops and the next word begins. 0:08:23.556 --> 0:08:26.156 And it's like, WHOA, that's crazy, Like you never really 0:08:26.156 --> 0:08:29.036 teach them grammar, and they like, somehow learn grammar and 0:08:29.076 --> 0:08:32.156 grammar anyone who has learned English as a second language 0:08:32.156 --> 0:08:34.676 knows English is not an easy language. It doesn't make 0:08:34.716 --> 0:08:36.996 any sense grammatically, like what is going on? And so 0:08:37.076 --> 0:08:40.276 I just remember having this moment of awe, like wow, 0:08:40.356 --> 0:08:44.276 I feel genuinely interested in this topic. I'm very curious 0:08:44.316 --> 0:08:46.876 about it. I want to know more than just language. 0:08:47.196 --> 0:08:48.836 And then I looked in the course catalog and I 0:08:48.876 --> 0:08:51.516 was like, oh, there's a cognitive science major. It's it 0:08:51.556 --> 0:08:57.716 combines philosophy, linguistics, neuroscience, computer science, biology, neurobiology, and you. 0:08:57.716 --> 0:09:00.716 You ask a question about the brain from multiple perspectives. 0:09:00.796 --> 0:09:03.236 So this trauma in your life that comes from. 0:09:03.156 --> 0:09:07.476 Me, little little t trauma No no, no concert violinists herself. 0:09:07.476 --> 0:09:11.276 You can't study at Juilliard anymore, like kind of slightly. 0:09:11.596 --> 0:09:14.796 You motored through it pretty well. You motored through pretty well. 0:09:14.836 --> 0:09:17.556 I just want to pay respect to true trauma because 0:09:17.556 --> 0:09:18.916 we're gonna get to that. We're gonna get there's an 0:09:18.916 --> 0:09:21.796 awful lot of it in this book. Let's come close 0:09:21.876 --> 0:09:24.836 to the present. You are, your surrogate has lost the child. 0:09:26.596 --> 0:09:28.196 How does that lead to a podcast? 0:09:28.676 --> 0:09:28.876 Yes? 0:09:28.996 --> 0:09:32.636 So one thing that was surprising to me is despite 0:09:32.676 --> 0:09:35.556 having gone through this violin shift and learning whatever I 0:09:35.596 --> 0:09:38.076 subconsciously learned from it, I wasn't consciously being like, what 0:09:38.156 --> 0:09:40.636 lessons should I draw from this experience? 0:09:41.676 --> 0:09:42.876 And I sorry, I was just. 0:09:42.876 --> 0:09:45.036 Waving to Jimmy who came in to my husband ill 0:09:46.076 --> 0:09:47.596 and sorry to embarrass you. 0:09:47.676 --> 0:09:50.636 Okay, I'm going to get to I. 0:09:51.596 --> 0:09:54.196 So anyway, I I had had these formative experiences, and 0:09:54.236 --> 0:09:56.596 I wasn't, you know, consciously drawing lessons. But I felt like, okay, 0:09:56.636 --> 0:10:02.236 I built some thicker skin, and I found myself reeling. 0:10:02.436 --> 0:10:03.596 After the miscarriage. 0:10:03.676 --> 0:10:07.076 I remember, yes, and I as someone who's quite social, 0:10:07.156 --> 0:10:09.476 I also felt like it was very, very hard for 0:10:09.516 --> 0:10:11.196 me to communicate with people. I remember I texted my 0:10:11.236 --> 0:10:14.516 family and was like, this happened. I can't talk to anyone. 0:10:14.596 --> 0:10:16.076 Please don't call me. I don't want to talk to 0:10:16.116 --> 0:10:18.996 anyone for like many days, and I finally mustered up 0:10:18.996 --> 0:10:20.956 the courage and I called my brother aj because it 0:10:20.996 --> 0:10:22.676 just felt like I had to reach out to someone, 0:10:22.876 --> 0:10:25.196 and he was wonderful, but I was just really struggling. 0:10:25.276 --> 0:10:27.116 I think the biggest reason I was struggling with that 0:10:27.476 --> 0:10:31.636 was I love being in control and I'm very used 0:10:31.676 --> 0:10:35.716 to hustling my way to solutions. So if I face 0:10:35.756 --> 0:10:37.836 an obstacle there's a barrier in my life, I will 0:10:37.876 --> 0:10:38.596 just work harder. 0:10:38.956 --> 0:10:40.116 I'll just figure out a way. 0:10:40.276 --> 0:10:44.276 I'm very creative and very resourceful when it comes to 0:10:44.396 --> 0:10:47.196 finding a way to the finish line, and relentless right 0:10:47.516 --> 0:10:51.516 but much to my mom's chagrin, And so for that reason, 0:10:52.396 --> 0:10:56.476 I felt this sense of powerlessness that was so discomfiting 0:10:56.516 --> 0:10:58.196 for me, because I was like, oh, wow, in the 0:10:58.196 --> 0:11:00.956 world of fertility and whether pregnancies work or not work, 0:11:01.316 --> 0:11:04.196 there's no such thing as hustling or hard work. The 0:11:04.316 --> 0:11:07.556 universe is totally indifferent towards the depth of my desire 0:11:07.636 --> 0:11:10.916 for this outcome. Doesn't really care how hard I'm working 0:11:10.956 --> 0:11:13.356 at their fertility, at the egg retrievals. 0:11:13.116 --> 0:11:13.996 None of that matters. 0:11:14.076 --> 0:11:18.876 And I really struggled with this feeling of contending with 0:11:18.916 --> 0:11:20.996 the true limits of my control. That was very hard 0:11:20.996 --> 0:11:23.476 for me psychologically, and that's what introduced me to this 0:11:23.516 --> 0:11:25.076 whole world of change. 0:11:24.796 --> 0:11:25.196 All right. 0:11:25.476 --> 0:11:28.676 And then I was at a party of a person 0:11:28.676 --> 0:11:31.236 who's here, Adele, and I was talking with my friend Christine. 0:11:31.476 --> 0:11:33.476 We were talking about the idea of a podcast. Oh 0:11:33.476 --> 0:11:34.876 you're sitting right next to each other, Thank you. 0:11:34.916 --> 0:11:36.716 Guys in this room. You don't know. 0:11:37.876 --> 0:11:39.916 It makes me look bad. My goal of is all 0:11:39.996 --> 0:11:44.036 just my friends and family. I would say thirty percent, 0:11:44.076 --> 0:11:48.036 I know, okay, all right, seventy percent are true strangers 0:11:48.036 --> 0:11:49.876 and we're just so captivated by the title of the book. 0:11:51.196 --> 0:11:54.076 So I was brainstorming with my friend Christine, and then 0:11:54.116 --> 0:11:55.796 we came up with the idea of, oh, wouldn't it 0:11:55.836 --> 0:11:59.676 be amazing if there was a podcast about change? And 0:12:00.036 --> 0:12:02.996 I wasn't quite sure what that looked like yet. In fact, 0:12:03.036 --> 0:12:05.996 at first, I thought maybe you'd be career change. And 0:12:06.156 --> 0:12:09.716 my friend Max's in the podcasting business. He told me, Maya, 0:12:09.756 --> 0:12:13.956 don't wait until there's a proper proposal, right, just record something. 0:12:14.396 --> 0:12:16.316 And I was like, okay, he's just get into the 0:12:16.316 --> 0:12:19.116 deep ense. So I got my android phone, I hit 0:12:19.156 --> 0:12:23.116 record it. I interviewed Jimmy, my husband, about his career shifts, 0:12:23.476 --> 0:12:25.476 and I sent it to one of my best friends, Aggie, 0:12:25.516 --> 0:12:28.116 who's sitting in the back of the room, and she said, girl, 0:12:29.116 --> 0:12:32.876 I really love you and Jimmy, and this is so boring. 0:12:34.556 --> 0:12:37.836 This is a terrible podcast. And you had a competitive 0:12:37.916 --> 0:12:39.636 edge with me because I actually like you guys. 0:12:40.756 --> 0:12:43.476 So Jimmy's very entertaining with the problem. 0:12:43.516 --> 0:12:44.676 Yeah, I guess I brought it down. 0:12:44.916 --> 0:12:45.876 I can guess what the problem was. 0:12:46.036 --> 0:12:46.716 What do you think it was? 0:12:46.796 --> 0:12:47.836 The stakes were so low? 0:12:48.436 --> 0:12:49.756 I mean, the stakes are too low. 0:12:49.796 --> 0:12:51.916 What is like, who cares about people's career changes? 0:12:52.036 --> 0:12:52.196 Oh? 0:12:52.276 --> 0:12:54.996 Yes, yes, yes, the stakes aren't high enough exactly the 0:12:55.036 --> 0:12:58.196 reasons I described. Yeah, then it just became a podcast 0:12:58.236 --> 0:13:01.636 about people's unbelievable changes in their personal lives. And the 0:13:01.676 --> 0:13:04.996 first person that I interviewed was Darryl Davis, This black 0:13:05.076 --> 0:13:09.276 jazz musician who convinced dozens of people to leave the 0:13:09.316 --> 0:13:13.396 Ku Klux Klan because of his incredible persuasive powers and 0:13:13.396 --> 0:13:17.156 his ability to understand what it means to empathize with 0:13:17.196 --> 0:13:19.156 people who even have vile views, right, and how to 0:13:19.156 --> 0:13:21.716 actually get them to change their minds. And I remember 0:13:21.756 --> 0:13:23.676 I'd put him as one of my dream guests on 0:13:23.716 --> 0:13:25.996 my podcast proposal, and then I was able to get him, 0:13:25.996 --> 0:13:27.916 and that was just the best day. Turns out there's 0:13:27.916 --> 0:13:30.316 three Darryl Davis's in the world, and one of them 0:13:30.356 --> 0:13:33.476 also agree to be on the podcast. He's actually a 0:13:33.516 --> 0:13:35.996 speaking coach, which is not ideal. 0:13:39.556 --> 0:13:42.356 All right. So now we're gonna move to the book. 0:13:43.276 --> 0:13:46.836 So they are what six seven different profiles. You're one 0:13:46.876 --> 0:13:47.036 of them. 0:13:47.356 --> 0:13:49.716 Yes, Unexpectedly, I didn't think that the last chapter would 0:13:49.716 --> 0:13:50.316 be narrative. 0:13:50.436 --> 0:13:52.556 I picked three that I want to talk about. Sure, 0:13:52.636 --> 0:13:54.596 we're going to do case studies, and we're going to 0:13:54.636 --> 0:13:56.436 figure out what did you tell these stories? And you're 0:13:56.436 --> 0:13:58.076 gonna explain to us what we can learn from each 0:13:58.076 --> 0:13:59.196 of these stories. Is that right? 0:14:00.436 --> 0:14:00.716 Okay? 0:14:00.796 --> 0:14:03.316 I I mean that's what you've kind of done here. 0:14:03.476 --> 0:14:05.156 Yeah, yeah, no, sorry, that's fair, and that's fair. 0:14:05.756 --> 0:14:07.356 I want to push back a little bit, and I'm 0:14:07.396 --> 0:14:09.076 so glad that we coordinated in advance when. 0:14:08.996 --> 0:14:11.956 We talk about but no one even told me what 0:14:12.116 --> 0:14:12.796 time I come here. 0:14:13.036 --> 0:14:16.916 Mike. Michael on the way in was like, I did 0:14:16.956 --> 0:14:19.156 extremely little prep for this conversation. I just want you 0:14:19.156 --> 0:14:21.956 guys to know. And I was like, perfect, that sounds great. 0:14:21.996 --> 0:14:23.356 That's actually the best version of Michael. 0:14:23.396 --> 0:14:25.756 So this is great. But here's what I want to 0:14:25.756 --> 0:14:26.276 push back on. 0:14:26.396 --> 0:14:29.516 I want to give our readers the joy of the 0:14:29.596 --> 0:14:32.876 story unfolding in the long form version of this. 0:14:32.956 --> 0:14:34.276 So I don't want to give away endings. 0:14:34.516 --> 0:14:36.636 Okay, So I can talk generally about some of the 0:14:36.676 --> 0:14:39.036 stories or some of the lessons learned, but I want 0:14:39.076 --> 0:14:40.236 people to really enjoy it. 0:14:40.276 --> 0:14:42.876 Their words are always going to beat my words, right, So, well. 0:14:42.796 --> 0:14:44.716 Back way for just one second before getting too that 0:14:44.836 --> 0:14:46.116 why did I write a book? No? 0:14:46.116 --> 0:14:48.396 No, no, you well all right, yeah, we talk about that. 0:14:48.436 --> 0:14:49.556 Yeah, why did you write a book? 0:14:49.596 --> 0:14:49.876 Okay? 0:14:50.636 --> 0:14:52.276 And there's are there plenty of books out there? Who 0:14:52.276 --> 0:14:52.756 needs another? 0:14:53.276 --> 0:14:53.476 Yeah? 0:14:53.476 --> 0:14:54.876 And in fact, I. 0:14:54.836 --> 0:14:57.796 Asked myself that question every time before I write a book, 0:14:58.116 --> 0:14:59.436 like this, is the world need another? 0:14:59.636 --> 0:14:59.916 Yes? 0:15:00.116 --> 0:15:02.076 And often the answer is no. 0:15:02.476 --> 0:15:02.756 Yes. 0:15:03.396 --> 0:15:06.476 Richard Taylor had told me so many times like, don't 0:15:06.476 --> 0:15:08.116 write a book, don't write a book, don't write a book, 0:15:08.116 --> 0:15:09.756 and I started to taking it personally. I was like, okay, dude, 0:15:09.796 --> 0:15:11.276 you have to even see my writing yet, like why 0:15:11.276 --> 0:15:13.596 do you feel why do you feel so strongly about this? 0:15:14.676 --> 0:15:16.756 But what he was trying to say is so many 0:15:16.756 --> 0:15:17.716 authors get into. 0:15:17.516 --> 0:15:19.916 The business for the wrong reasons and kind of like 0:15:19.916 --> 0:15:21.236 the Bachelor, right, you got to be here for the 0:15:21.316 --> 0:15:24.956 right reasons for it to work. But the reason that 0:15:24.996 --> 0:15:28.996 I wrote it is because one, I love learning new skills. 0:15:29.196 --> 0:15:31.356 So I at the time, I was lucky enough that 0:15:31.396 --> 0:15:36.516 I had talent representation and my agents at CAAA had 0:15:36.636 --> 0:15:38.236 been asking me for a really long time will you 0:15:38.236 --> 0:15:38.676 write a book? 0:15:38.716 --> 0:15:39.396 We write a book? 0:15:39.636 --> 0:15:41.596 And by the way, initially, I mean I said no 0:15:41.636 --> 0:15:43.156 for about a year and a half because I was like, 0:15:43.756 --> 0:15:45.556 it was never on my bucket list to write a book. 0:15:45.556 --> 0:15:46.916 I was happy to go to my grave not being 0:15:46.916 --> 0:15:50.396 a published author only. I also only want to take 0:15:50.436 --> 0:15:52.556 on endeavors if I think I can make something exceptional, 0:15:52.796 --> 0:15:54.636 which really sets a high bar for you now that 0:15:54.676 --> 0:15:56.996 you're about to read this book. No, but I want 0:15:57.076 --> 0:15:59.276 I want to feel it's great. So I really don't 0:15:59.276 --> 0:16:01.556 like phoning things in. I didn't want to write a 0:16:01.596 --> 0:16:04.236 mediocre book that was going to be very unsatisfying for me, 0:16:04.276 --> 0:16:07.756 and so I kept saying no. And so one was, oh, 0:16:07.796 --> 0:16:09.796 I would love to build a new skill in adulthood. 0:16:09.796 --> 0:16:11.956 How much fun would that be? And then the second 0:16:11.956 --> 0:16:15.716 thing was I had to ask myself, will a book 0:16:15.756 --> 0:16:19.196 give me something that the podcast can't give me? That 0:16:19.236 --> 0:16:20.796 would be the only reason to do it. I love 0:16:20.836 --> 0:16:23.356 the podcast. I love audio. Also, people listen to podcasts 0:16:23.356 --> 0:16:25.756 more than they read books, as evidence by how hard 0:16:25.796 --> 0:16:30.356 it's been to sell this damn book despite so much hustling. 0:16:30.676 --> 0:16:32.596 Oh my god, you guys, thank you so much, Thank 0:16:32.636 --> 0:16:34.636 you so much for being doing this for two days. 0:16:34.716 --> 0:16:41.796 So okay, yes, you. 0:16:43.436 --> 0:16:45.396 Literally do an excerpt from the phone book and it 0:16:45.436 --> 0:16:47.476 would be a number one Neuror Times bestseller. So you 0:16:47.516 --> 0:16:51.716 really don't have a lot of credibility here. So annoying 0:16:51.716 --> 0:16:55.876 how easily you sell books. It's so annoying. Yeah, people 0:16:55.876 --> 0:16:57.676 were like, hey, when I was asking for advice, I 0:16:57.716 --> 0:17:00.276 was like, dude, these pre order numbers are paltry, Like 0:17:00.316 --> 0:17:02.556 what's going on? And then they were like, well, you 0:17:02.676 --> 0:17:05.996 know authors like why do you talk to Michael Lewis 0:17:06.036 --> 0:17:09.436 about his experience selling books? And I was like, yes, 0:17:09.436 --> 0:17:12.396 I will learn zero lessons that are applicable to my 0:17:12.516 --> 0:17:13.356 life as an author. 0:17:13.596 --> 0:17:16.156 Thank you very much. Anyway, I digress. 0:17:17.756 --> 0:17:20.756 I realized that as I was recording all these podcast 0:17:20.836 --> 0:17:23.556 episodes about people's incredible lives, so it was like stories 0:17:23.596 --> 0:17:26.276 of illness, stories of a dream loss, stories of a 0:17:26.396 --> 0:17:30.116 job lost, and stories of just unexpected wile and will 0:17:30.196 --> 0:17:34.676 drop from the sky style changes. I noticed there are 0:17:34.676 --> 0:17:38.956 some really interesting connections. In fact, sorry, she also mentioned 0:17:38.996 --> 0:17:41.636 your daughter, who I interviewed quinn Is for the podcast. 0:17:41.676 --> 0:17:43.636 She was a guest of mine. I noticed that there 0:17:43.636 --> 0:17:49.316 were really interesting connections across stories. So we are often 0:17:49.356 --> 0:17:54.276 told when something crappy happens to us going through a divorce, 0:17:54.556 --> 0:17:56.556 it's like, oh my god, my friend's going through a divorce. 0:17:56.556 --> 0:17:57.356 You should talk to them. 0:17:57.756 --> 0:17:59.276 Oh I lost a loved one. Oh go to the 0:17:59.316 --> 0:18:01.836 brief section of the bookstore. Oh I'm going through a 0:18:01.916 --> 0:18:04.196 job thing. Oh yeah, there's a community support group for 0:18:04.236 --> 0:18:09.676 people losing jobs. And I think that's misguided. What matters 0:18:09.796 --> 0:18:13.316 is a shared psychology in the face of change. So 0:18:13.516 --> 0:18:16.756 what I've noticed is that people going through wildly different 0:18:16.796 --> 0:18:19.916 changes on their surface have so much more in common 0:18:19.956 --> 0:18:21.916 when it comes to both the problem statement and the 0:18:21.916 --> 0:18:26.076 solution set. So to make this concrete, I interviewed a 0:18:26.276 --> 0:18:29.516 cancer patient and I interviewed a woman who had been 0:18:29.556 --> 0:18:32.276 betrayed by her husband. She found out he had had 0:18:32.276 --> 0:18:35.636 a decade long affair. They were both grappling with a 0:18:35.636 --> 0:18:39.036 deep feeling of betrayal. So they were both struggling with 0:18:39.076 --> 0:18:41.076 this thing, and they had much more in common than 0:18:41.916 --> 0:18:43.996 the person with cancer did with someone else who had 0:18:44.036 --> 0:18:47.396